"Grief is a taboo topic in our society. We don't know how to handle it, and so we don't talk about it. But the reality is that it's a universal human experience."
AnnE O'Neil

AnnE O'Neil

Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality and just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of opening

AnnE O'Neil: that conversation up, what do you think about that? Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two in the recovery.

AnnE O'Neil: I, I think what I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well, is it is very important to give. To what spirituality is to each and every person. Um, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you, it may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it.

AnnE O'Neil: Could be[00:01:00]

Dr. Harold Hong: all right. All right. Uh, well, thank you for joining us on this new episode of Finding New Waters, and today we have Annie O'Neill. Annie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for

AnnE O'Neil: having me here.

Dr. Harold Hong: Sure. Uh, and we also have Justin McClennan, executive Director here at New Waters. And, uh, today we're going to be talking about Annie's Air of expertise in grief and its relationship to substance use disorders.

Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, thanks so much for being with us here today. Just wanna open up like with this idea of what is the connection between grief and how did you get interested in this topic of grief?

AnnE O'Neil: So personally, I got forced into this topic of grief. Um, I came from a family that, uh, squelched grief like a lot of families do.

AnnE O'Neil: And when I was 25 and my mother [00:02:00] died and there was no service, um, she had spent seven and a half weeks in intensive care. Um, and then she passed and we were expected to go on. And so nothing had happened and there was no opportunity to process and no. And even prior to that, there had been a few other instances where, you know, like, no to grief, not, not okay.

AnnE O'Neil: Um, but that was really the capstone. And at that time, I, myself was already drinking as a lot of my family did. Um, and that definitely escalated it to a new level. So I personally saw the link between. Grief and substance use, but I didn't think about it much until many, many, many years, even decades later, when I was working at a, as at a, um, hospital as a chaplain and I had a grief counseling background.

AnnE O'Neil: And, uh, one of the substance use counselors found that out and said, boy, are we gonna put you to use? And I started working with a lot of the people individually there. And what I was really struck by was, how many of. Had said that [00:03:00] nobody had ever talked to them about, and these were people a lot who, whom had been in and out of a lot of treatment centers.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And there just wasn't the room for talking about the loss. And, you know, the topics that often go with it too, like for need for forgiveness for themselves, need for forgiveness for others. Uh, spiritual connection with people on the other side. A lot of people find that they can find a higher. By first linking to ancestors that they knew.

AnnE O'Neil: So, um, it, it really opened my eyes to what feels to me still, I think it's getting better, but still feels to me like a, a kind of missing element in most places around recovery. And, and

Dr. Harold Hong: that's true. You shared the Annie. Um, it's, it's weird that grief is so common, but also. So un like, so foreign and unknown to us.

Dr. Harold Hong: And I think a lot of our, our viewers and our [00:04:00] listeners might not even know how to think about the word grief. Mm-hmm. So just to, just to help people get caught up. When we're talking about grief or when you talk about grief, how do you help patients understand what grief is?

AnnE O'Neil: There are two different levels to that.

AnnE O'Neil: You know, the standard response is, it's the normal reaction to significant loss. And, um, I also often take, take people to Francis Weller is a youngian, uh, therapist that I, I've done some studying with. Mm-hmm. And he has a book called Wild Edge of Sorrow, which is an absolutely beautiful book. And he identifies there as being five gates to grief.

AnnE O'Neil: The first gate is everything we love, we will lose. So that's what our society traditionally thinks of as grief. Mm-hmm. It's loss of loved ones, loss of jobs, loss of health, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that's the first thing. The second thing that he, uh, he calls gate two is grief for the parts of us that have [00:05:00] not known love.

AnnE O'Neil: And that includes a lot of shame and a lot of people in recovery can really relate to that. So it's grief for the parts of us that have not known love from others or from ourselves. And then the third gate to grief is grief for the world. Living The world that we live in today with what, you know, society is like.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And what's happening to Mother Nature and everything. A lot of us carry that day in and day out. And it's kind of background noise, but it's not, you know, not to be dismissed by any stretch. The fourth gate, he calls, um, grief for the part, for the things that we needed and did not receive. And he especially talks about that being at the soul level.

AnnE O'Neil: So the acknowledgement of who we are as a person, you know, not being seen, not being heard, not being valued for the gifts and what we're bringing. Mm-hmm. And then the fifth is ancestral. So it's what are we carrying in from our family lineage. Mm-hmm. So I, I often introduce people to all five of [00:06:00] those gates because I find it opens up the mind as to what grief is.

AnnE O'Neil: And sometimes even though it feels big at that point in time, it can help it to feel a little more approachable too. Mm-hmm.

Justin Mclendon: That's interesting. You know, to back up a minute, you were talking about how, um, It seems like people just don't give enough attention to, to grief. Right. Or address it enough. And I wonder just what, what your opinion about that is, or what's your thoughts around why is it that there's not enough attention

AnnE O'Neil: given?

AnnE O'Neil: I think it's because it is such a big emotion mm-hmm. That most people don't know how to sit with it. Most, most people. It's scary. Mm-hmm. Um, there, I've talked to many, many people that are like, if I go into this, I'm not sure that I can. Mm. And you know, in that instance I talk about the fact of the strength of the psyche and the soul in that, you know, they will protect you.

AnnE O'Neil: They will take you only as far as you can go. [00:07:00] And, um, that's an important thing to, to give people comfort with. But a lot of people feel like it can get so overwhelming. Mm-hmm. And to. You know, in the background, it's our society telling us things like, you gotta keep busy, keeping busy. I'll take care of it, and all that other kind of thing.

AnnE O'Neil: So it's a societal pressure as well. Right. Um, but I think it's really important, um, to just be aware that that exists and that is gonna be the background noise. But the truth of healing from grief is it takes a deep dive. Mm-hmm. It really takes a deep dive. There's a quote not related to grief directly, um, but in general from Maya Angelo that I love, that I often use around this.

AnnE O'Neil: And it's, she says, I will be affected by things that happen to me, but I refuse to be reduced by them. Mm. And I use that and as an invitation to people. I say, you know, like short term, you are gonna be reduced by grief, but we wanna work together to make sure that long term you don't [00:08:00] have to be reduced by grief.

AnnE O'Neil: And that includes things like you don't have to turn to substances. And a whole lot of people turn to substances. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Well, to piggyback off that point, Annie, Those five gates. Yeah. Uh, I think everyone I know has a lot of those gates in their lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would also say none of them would say that these are active problems for them.

AnnE O'Neil: Well, you know, there's a lot of times where people are thinking that I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Right, right. But if you really wanna have a rich full life, you kind of need to sit with, I wonder how that might impact me. Yeah. You know, I, it may not, I may be able to get through my day just fine if knowing that there is a part of my heart that is not being fed.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. But, [00:09:00] How much richer could my life be? And quite frankly, again, when come, when dealing with substance use and addiction issues, um Right. You never know when they're gonna creep up. Right. When you're pushing that kind of stuff off to the side, uh, not having healed from them mm-hmm. Right. May catch up to you at any point in time.

AnnE O'Neil: Well, that's

Dr. Harold Hong: what I'm, I'm curious is that what do you, do you see that happen in reality where people. Just loaded with grief, but they're unaware.

AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And absolutely. So

Dr. Harold Hong: can you tell us about like a, a story or a time where you, you've helped someone find it, see it, and take stock of what it's done?

AnnE O'Neil: I think, um,

AnnE O'Neil: The client I worked with recently is a good example. Um, someone dealing with their own health issues [00:10:00] and very much in the, oh, but I found out that it's not gonna be all that bad, so I'm just going to move forward. And one of the things as a social worker is, um, I'm trying to think of the, of the word sell.

AnnE O'Neil: People's right to decide where they are. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't push autonomy and Yeah. Uhhuh self autonomy. Thank you. Yeah. And I, um, and I, I don't, I don't push and she opted otherwise, but I did. Introduce her to the fact that, um, there does seem to be a little part of her that does realize that it would be helpful to look at the fear that she's experiencing around death.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And, um, and to, to look at if there's a way to kind of make friends with it. So yeah, to your point about the, everybody being loaded with it though too. Uh, another thing that Francis [00:11:00] Weller often talks about is the fact that. We usually think as soci society, whether we're in grief or not. And he talks about the fact that the reality that we're living in is everyone in our society is in grief every day.

AnnE O'Neil: It's a matter of how close are you dancing with it. Wow. And I think that really helps. One of my friends talked about that, who's also a grief counselor, talked about the fact that after her sister died, she said, you know, those days when people wore black Armand, They made sense. You know, we knew to be a little bit more careful with them that there might be a little bit more emotion involved, that they might be a little more volatile or they might need a little bit more.

AnnE O'Neil: And when we were walking down the streets, that was known. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, now we go by and we don't know what grief everybody's carrying. Mm-hmm. Right. And yet they're being impacted by it. And our relationships with them are being impacted by it. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Harold Hong: We talk a a lot about, uh, recovery [00:12:00] as a journey.

Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And you're talking about how when, when you had a huge loss, your drinking increased. Mm-hmm. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about how you see grief and addiction going together and, and what do they do to each other?

AnnE O'Neil: Well, and so I, I. Both experiences. I have the experience of of having lost someone close to me and having increased my drinking.

AnnE O'Neil: And then, um, my husband also died when I had about five years sober. So that was my, okay, I'm gonna need to learn how to do this differently if I'm gonna stay sober. So I really dove into what were the feelings that were coming up and all this other kind of stuff today. Um, and our out of that, The way that I work with people in a very general sense, I started this model called here, which I stand, what stands for Heal, explore, refine, [00:13:00] emerge, and when I first started it, I expected it to be much more, um, Much more linear and much more, uh, condensed.

AnnE O'Neil: And now I use it in a very general sense. But basically what has to happen first after a loss is we need to dive into the healing. There's physical, emotional, spiritual, relational. Everything is impacted by it, and we need to really look at what, what needs to be healed from that. But after that happens for a while, people start to get into a state of exploration knowing that they're not gonna be stay the same from who they were.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So how do I want this to impact me? How do I want it to affect who I am today? And, and after the exploration comes, the period of refinement about what do you wanna keep and what do you not wanna keep, and then kind of emerge into the, the beingness of a new person. Um, you know, one thing I talk about a lot with the notion of [00:14:00] both, um, grief and and recovery.

AnnE O'Neil: They are by far, in a way, the hardest things that people will have to go through in their lifetime, but they are also the biggest opportunities people have for true transformation. Mm. And I think that's an important hope to hold out for people. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Justin Mclendon: You know, I'm thinking, um, you were talking about the, the five gates.

Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. I can't remember the words that you used, but the fourth one, uh, essentially things that we didn't receive mm-hmm. That we, that we needed and we didn't get, essentially. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think Dr. Hong could speak to this too. So a, a lot of the work that we do, I think work that we've all probably done right.

Justin Mclendon: But we do an assessment process here where we're able. Really do a deep dive with people on the psychological, psychiatric, and physical kind of front. Uh, and I think Dr. Hong would probably agree with me more times than not. It's really interesting to work with people. Um, And, and bring to their awareness sometimes that they're [00:15:00] not even aware of all of these things that they needed in their past, uh, or currently mm-hmm.

Justin Mclendon: Uh, that they just never really got. Mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: Um, and they often dismiss it with, oh, that's silly. That's stupid. I don't really need that. Yeah. Yeah. Or that, that's

Justin Mclendon: not trauma. And interesting. I'm, I feel like I'm learning something or having my perspective shift because I've always thought of that as like trauma.

Justin Mclendon: I, it's really refreshing to also kind of see that as mm-hmm. As grief. Mm-hmm. Which is, is really nice, uh, to just have that different perspective. But, um, but yeah, I think that's, that's huge and I think most people probably struggle with that in some way or another. Right. Things

that

AnnE O'Neil: maybe they needed interested in.

AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And that's a lot of work that I do with people mm-hmm. Is around their needs and identifying them, and particularly working with people in the healing process, uh, after a loss. Mm-hmm. I invite them to think about all of the roles I'm talking about, a loss of a loved one. Mm-hmm. All of the roles that a person played in their life [00:16:00] and.

AnnE O'Neil: What needs were filled from that. Mm-hmm. And I help them to see that those needs still exist and they will of course, never be filled in the exact same way. And that is something to be grieved and paid attention to and everything else. Yeah. But it's also important to look at how are those needs gonna be met otherwise, you know, when, when a partner dies, they're also, you know, Travel buddy, your, your financial companion.

AnnE O'Neil: Sure. Mm-hmm. And, and all of those needs are very real. And unfortunately it's not stuff that's looked at often. Mm-hmm. And it's really important cuz it impacts somebody's life to the very core level. Absolutely. So, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But with how painful and complicated it is, denial is totally natural.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of our clients, family members. I would say that they know that their loved one is in total denial [00:17:00] of this huge loss that they've had. Mm-hmm. And, and they're using alcohol to just cover the pain up. Just numb. Numb, the emotional pain of that huge loss. And they've, they've asked them to go for help.

Dr. Harold Hong: They've asked them to process it, get into it, and they, they can't or they won't. Mm-hmm. Um, have you ever been in a situation. Someone, someone came into your office and you helped them, helped them have the courage to, to take that step into that tough work.

AnnE O'Neil: One of the things that I used with the groups at the hospital a lot that that opened people's eyes, I think is I talked about the similarities between.

AnnE O'Neil: Grief and early recovery that in both instances, you know, the rug has been pulled out from them. They don't know who they are. They don't know what's next. They don't know how they're gonna get there. They don't know if they even care if they get there or not. Yeah, so that's a huge thing. Physical symptoms are all over the place.

AnnE O'Neil: [00:18:00] Emotional emotions are up and down and sideways, and relationships are up in the air and all this other kind of stuff. When I delivered that news first to the groups, they were like, wait a minute. Why are you dumping all this? And then I said, but the good news is healing from grief. And getting into recovery have a lot of similarities too.

AnnE O'Neil: They have the similarities of it's one day at a time cuz that's all you can take. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have the similarities that spirituality can really be helpful and when I say spirituality, I refer to some connection to something beyond that helps you to make some sense. It might be nature, it might be music, it might be a more traditional religion, whatever it is, but it's what helps you make some sense of the universe.

AnnE O'Neil: It's helpful to have just a couple of people that you can talk to, that you can, that really get what you're going through. Uh, it's helpful to tell your story. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of similarities in both instances too. So I remind them that [00:19:00] they're not in getting into recovery and or dealing with their healing from grief, they're not only tackling one, they're tackling both at the same time.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Makes it a little more palatable at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Did that answer your question?

Dr. Harold Hong: I'm not sure if it did. I I think it's great. You're, you're talking about getting people in, in, in sync with the idea of grief, uh, because they've heard a lot about recovery. Mm-hmm. And you can say, okay, it's, it's actually not that far off from Right.

Dr. Harold Hong: This, this track that you've already started to build up for. Um, but we have people who are in total denial. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I, I, it's, it's shocking. Like Justin and I, we, we've worked with so many clients here. Yeah. And, uh, we know that family of origin trauma was, was a huge contributing factor to the development of their process or their substance use.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. And years. Yep. When you asked them what was it like, they would say perfect. Yeah.

AnnE O'Neil: Right. Yeah. [00:20:00] Perfect family. Not uncommon at all. Yeah, yeah. Right.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Uh, and I think that so many of our, the, our clients' loved ones are just tearing their hair up. Yeah. Right. Like, how can you not see how, how dysfunctional this is?

Dr. Harold Hong: How can you not see how much pain you're carrying? And, uh, what are some, some ways. We can break through like this, this shield of denial. Yeah. That is so powerful with a lot of our clients. Yeah.

AnnE O'Neil: I, um, in that kind of instance, I, I turned to motivational interviewing and the, the, the note, the pointing out the dissonance, Uhhuh, the very gentle, compassionate, loving, pointing out the dissonance.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And you know, the other thing too that I think is important is the whole notion of. Holding them in their wholeness. That came from the spiritual counseling training that I had. Mm-hmm. And I'm so grateful for it because I, it means that I'm a [00:21:00] therapist that doesn't work from the pathological standpoint.

AnnE O'Neil: It means that I'm holding them in their wholeness even when they can't see it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'm holding them in their ability to get through the grief and their ability to see it eventually, their ability to, um, you know, stand up for their life. When they can't possibly imagine that they even need to at this point in time.

AnnE O'Neil: Right.

Dr. Harold Hong: That makes a lot of sense actually. Uh, just thinking about it, uh, we, we had Sheila Mainland, uh, visit with us and she's an experiential therapist in Charlotte. Uh, does a lot of training and work with the Onset Workshops team. And, uh, she would say that safety is absolutely the beginning. Right?

Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. And, uh, when you're talking about grief and pain and. Dangerous. That feels in so many ways. If you're not safe, absolutely. If you're not in a safe therapeutic relationship, you're, you're going to hide it. Right? Yeah. And um, and it reminds me of this other thing that I just ran across, which is when we see [00:22:00] something that doesn't make sense.

Dr. Harold Hong: We can react to it with anger. Right. Or curiosity. Right. Right. And I love your approach of motivational interviewing cuz it's it's curiosity. Mm-hmm. Right. Tell me how that helps you. Yep. Uh, tell me what you think about, tell me what you worry about. And, and it's, it's just a much safer place Yeah. For people to get to know themselves better.

AnnE O'Neil: I do a fair amount of, um, ifs parts work too, and curiosity is so key to that. It's really interesting when somebody meets a part that they're like, I'm not sure I like this part. What am I gonna do with it? So,

Dr. Harold Hong: so for, for our nons. Therapy. Got it. People. What is if Fs,

AnnE O'Neil: and tell us what, it's the Internal Family Systems.

AnnE O'Neil: It was founded about 40 years ago by Richard Schwartz, and it is the notion that all of us have many, many parts within us. And a simple, simple thing that I often use with clients is I have a part that wants to go to a party and I have a part that doesn't wanna go to a party. Mm-hmm. I have a part [00:23:00] that you.

AnnE O'Neil: Has wonderful memories from childhood and I have a part that remembers that. You know, there was a lot of neglect there too. Mm-hmm. And as we start to get to know these parts, the goal is not to banish any of them. You know, the parts of us that we don't like as well, the judgmental and all this other kind of stuff.

AnnE O'Neil: They all feel like they. Something to offer us. They're all rooting for us and, and holding us in the highest. Yeah. And what we need to do is make the space to, to come from that, to understand them, to accept them, and to give them their space, and then we can begin to negotiate with them a little bit as opposed to banish them completely.

AnnE O'Neil: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks for that.

Justin Mclendon: I like. Negotiation. I think there's a lot of that that has to go on, right? Yes.

AnnE O'Neil: Well, recovery is nothing but a lot of negotiation. Yeah. Negotiation with ourselves, [00:24:00] negotiation with others, and Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Families. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yep. A

Dr. Harold Hong: hundred percent.

Dr. Harold Hong: Well, if, if, if someone negotiates and says, well, why do I have to stop drinking? If I wanna do this grief work, can, can I, can I keep drinking and, and keep working with you, Annie, on grief work? What, what would you say to a client? I would,

AnnE O'Neil: um, it would, it would depend upon the client, quite frankly. Mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: There are some clients that I work with with harm reduction first, and I suggest that look at how they may be harming themselves or putting themselves or loved ones in danger. And if they wanna start from a harm reduction standpoint and they feel capable of doing that, I may very well start some grief work with them if, just to get a sense as to whether or not mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: Where they really are. Um, there are others that I would probably just outright say, [00:25:00] No. Mm-hmm. But it really is up to the individual. Yeah. What's going on with the individual client. But like I have become a huge fan of harm reduction, and I think that's a, that's an open opening of the door to a lot of people.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And,

Dr. Harold Hong: and by that you mean, uh, we're, we're gonna take the good that we can get safely and so, um, If total sobriety right now is not an option and we can still see if we do some grief work, we'll, we'll go for that. Yes. But rule of thumb, like you're, it sounds like most of the time you're saying sobriety first.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, well mostly because I don't think, I don't think it's possible to really do. Deep grief work. Mm-hmm. When you're in mind altered states Right. A good chunk of your life,

Justin Mclendon: just not being able to connect, truly

AnnE O'Neil: emotional. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. The, the defenses are still a little too strong at that point [00:26:00] in time.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Can you fully recover from substance use without doing the grief

AnnE O'Neil: work? Mm, that's a great question. That is a good question. I.

AnnE O'Neil: I suppose it depends upon the losses that you've experienced in your life. Say you're in your early twenties and you've had a relatively mild substance use career so far, you may be able to. But if you've been using pretty heavy and hard for, for a decade or so, you have probably had enough grief instances from that alone.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. The number of people at the rehab that I worked with that had, you know, been shooting up with somebody who died. Right. So they have grief and trauma at the exact same time. Right. And guilt and all sorts of other things. Um, then you're probably not gonna be able to recover until you do some, do some work around that.

AnnE O'Neil: Definitely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:27:00] I talk about the fact that with all trauma comes grief and with a lot of grief comes trauma. You know, if your 95 year old grandmother died and she had lived a full life and you had a good relationship, there's not gonna be trauma around that. But if you were shooting up with somebody and they died next to you mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: You're gonna have some trauma to work too. Absolutely. Work through too, so, absolutely. Yeah. Right.

Justin Mclendon: Yep. No, that is 100% for sure. And, and you know, traumatic, I mean, just using that word, I think substance use in itself, I mean, if anybody has struggled with the depths of addiction, like in itself is traumatic.

AnnE O'Neil: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. The things we put ourselves through. Yeah. 100%.

Justin Mclendon: 100%. So, uh, I'm, I'm

AnnE O'Neil: biased. I'd like to squeeze this into the conversation.

Justin Mclendon: Okay. I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality. Mm-hmm. And just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of mm-hmm.

Justin Mclendon: Opening that conversation up. What do you [00:28:00] think about that?

AnnE O'Neil: Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two mm-hmm. In the recovery. Mm-hmm. I, I think. What I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well. Mm-hmm. Is, it is very important to give space as to what spirituality is to each and every person.

AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Uh, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you. Mm-hmm. It may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it could be. Yeah. Given that, as I said, spirituality to me is something that has purpose and meaning.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, then yes, that's, that is. When someone has lost someone so close to them, that is often what's missing. Yeah. Um, and you know, David Kessler, who used to work with Elizabeth Kubler Ross has written a book on the, [00:29:00] the sixth stage of, of mm-hmm. Grief, which is finding meaning. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think there's a lot of validity to that, that we, um, we heal by.

AnnE O'Neil: Saying, wait a minute, I do have reason to go on. Wait, wait a minute. It does make sense in my own book. Um, it, it, which is called, uh, if You Want The Rainbow, welcome the Rain, A Memoir of Grief and Recovery. I talk about the fact that when I was sitting in a songa, it, it taught me to go back to my breath at a point in time when I didn't care if I was breathing or not.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And I, I share that with a lot of people because. People are really quick to say, I'm not suicidal, but I don't care if I'm here or not. And I'm like mm-hmm. Completely, completely, completely understandable. Part of grief. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. And so whatever it is that helps us to find that meaning and that purpose mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: Um, to, to wanna still be here. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Well, I mean, to your point, Justin, I, I, I think that I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who use [00:30:00] spirituality to. Like skip grief. Right, right. To avoid it. Right. So they'll say everything happens for a reason. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they're in a better place. They, they, they're in heaven now, and we're just moving on.

AnnE O'Neil: I should be happy. Right. Yeah. Have you heard of the term spiritual bypass? Yeah, that's exactly what that is. And I, so it was coined by John Wellwood, and it is to use a spiritual precept to go around having emotion. Mm-hmm. And it is probably grief that that happens the most around, you're absolutely right.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And it never, it never works. Right. You know, might, it might work for a very short period of time, but it's gonna catch up to you sooner later. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I mean, I, my heart like feels very, uh, Frustrated and, and heavy. Mm-hmm. When, when I hear those, those conversations happen because, um, well, I, spirituality, faith, uh, is a huge part of my life [00:31:00] mm-hmm.

Dr. Harold Hong: As well. Um, I, I am a firm believer that there, there is a higher power and the meaning and the intent of that higher power is woven through everything that we experience. Uh, but I also believe that our higher power. Uh, wants us to understand things more fully and, and live more holistically than this. Um, and, and so like, how do, how do you help people think through, like how, how all the complexities of a spiritually sacred grief process?

AnnE O'Neil: Well, I. That's an excellent question. And the note, I love the notion of the spiritually sacred. Mm-hmm. And it is to talk about the sacredness of their life, how they lived, what their legacy is, how they impacted their li, their own life, the person who's left behind and from their [00:32:00] in the honoring. They can usually start to get in touch with the heart a little bit more, and it, it tends to be a little bit less dismissive.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. The whole notion. You noticed, uh, we, we spoke earlier about the, the, what I call the invitations to soulful living. Mm-hmm. Yes. And one of them, the last one is the invitation to embrace one's humanity and one's mortality. And the reason that that became the eighth one, which I added in the pandemic, is I noticed how many people were so terrified of.

AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Positively terrified. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I am with the spiritual teachers who basically say, if you have not embraced that, you're gonna leave this world someday. You're not gonna be able to fully live on this world either. Uh, the Buddhist use a poem of meditation, [00:33:00] which basically is practicing dying to become familiar with it.

AnnE O'Neil: There's a lot to be said for that. And in teaching somebody how to embrace their own, it usually helps them open the door to grief a little bit more. Mm-hmm. As well. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Can you say more about soulful living?

AnnE O'Neil: I'll try.

Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, it just strikes me as being the opposite of, of how, of how we ordinarily. Live in ways that, um, deplete us or, or burn us.

AnnE O'Neil: It, it is absolutely the opposite of that. It's a very spacious living. It's a very pre being, present living. Um, that is actually the, the crux of the, the studying that I'm doing with Francis Weller is the whole notion of soul. And the way I describe soulful living is it is about, Being present. Being available.

AnnE O'Neil: And it's about, [00:34:00] and I, I often say you can look at somebody and know when they're having a soulful life, but it's not about how it looks to people whenever we get caught in how it looks or Right, what the ego wants and all this other kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. We are completely going opposite to soul. And, um, one of my own, uh, spiritual teachers at one point in time, Kim Hughes in describe spiritual counseling as helping people to learn to live more from their soul and less from their ego.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And that is how I describe my work a lot too, is just really helping people to inter understand at their core who they are and what they. And how they wanna live their life and giving themselves permission to do so. It, it takes me back to a quote from Rachel, Naomi Reman that I like a lot To that says healing may not be so much about getting better as it is about letting go of everything that's not you.

AnnE O'Neil: All of the beliefs and all of the [00:35:00] expectations and becoming who you really are. And I think that's, Definitely in the process of recovery. And it's also true in the process of really deeply healing from grief. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

Justin Mclendon: I love that. Love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And I mean, I have all these thoughts running through my head.

Justin Mclendon: Right. But I think, you know, overarchingly like our society, I think, you know, we do a lot of the opposite of that. Right? Absolutely. That's about the work. The career advancements and just like you name it, right. What does

AnnE O'Neil: it look like? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah. I was raised in a family influence. Just make it look good.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. Just make it look, just make it look good, right?

Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Keeping up with the Joneses, you know, whatever the exterior is, as long as everybody thinks that. It's good then we should be good. Right? But yeah, and it's not that, right? It's not soulful living.

AnnE O'Neil: So my first career, um, was actually in advertising. I was in the glamorous world of the ad biz.

AnnE O'Neil: Okay. And I've had many people laugh that I've kind of taken one. One extreme to the other. [00:36:00] I'm looking at social work as the middle path. But, um, yeah. You know, I had by 30 years old, I was a VP at one of the Hot New York agencies. Nice. And my, I was so empty though, right. I wasn't yet sober and I was just, I worked so hard.

AnnE O'Neil: To make the outside look okay. Cuz the inside was just mush. Mm-hmm. Just broken and mush. Um, and that's what soulful living gets you is, is to start to let go of the fact that you have to work so hard to have the outside look good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And to start to pay attention to what does the inside need.

AnnE O'Neil: You know, sit things like sitting with those five gates and really asking your question of like, how does this impact me today? Right. It takes, um, it takes a certain level of commitment to soul to even be able to begin there. Right. So, yeah, absolutely. Wow,

Dr. Harold Hong: that's awesome. But that comparison is a big [00:37:00] part of why people stay in their addiction as long as they do.

Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? The, like, the shame. The embarrassment of admitting that you have an alcohol use disorder or you have, uh, like a pill disorder. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's too shameful. It, it compares so poorly mm-hmm. To everyone else, so I just have to keep it a secret. Yeah. Uh, same with grief. Right. Um, no one, no one wants to be around me when I'm crying or sad, so I need to hide it and just, just move on.

Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Right. And. It doesn't

AnnE O'Neil: work. It doesn't. No, it definitely doesn't work. And you know, first of all, the truth is we're not hiding things as much as we think we are. Right. You know, people usually have a better sense of what's going on and the reality. Another one of the invitations, ah, I just realized the invitation that I forgot to mention to you guys is the invitation to connect the invitation of really connect, [00:38:00] starting with your.

AnnE O'Neil: And connecting with others, connecting with spirit, connecting with nature, connecting with, um, with ancestors. It's only when we can start to tap into soul that we can truly, honestly connect when we're living from the make it look good, we're always looking over our shoulder as to, you know, how am I looking?

AnnE O'Neil: How, how am I doing compared to this other one, right? So, yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Isn't that crazy? Because it is like, When we live in this world where we're gonna compare ourselves to other people, we're pretty much guaranteed to not get what we actually need or want. Right. But when we switch tracks and say, I don't care anymore, I'm gonna live for my soul.

Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, you're actually gonna get what you want. And, and I mean, not to go back into this other paradigm, but ironically, the people that you were previously comparing yourself to, their propaganda notice, Hey, like, Annie's, Annie's [00:39:00] so much better these days. Yeah. Like she smiles like she has energy. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, I want that for

AnnE O'Neil: myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I, weird story, but I'll tell it. Anyhow. I worked at, um, my last job in advertising. Actually, that's not true. My last job in advertising before I took a year off and got sober and then came back into advertising, was at a very small agency and it was headed by a.

AnnE O'Neil: Team of two, and one of them was an English guy with his booming accent. Oh. And I called to make an amend. I was a horrendous employee there. Mm-hmm. I had badmouthed them to clients. I was drunk at lunch a lot. I came in late because I was hungover from the night before and blah, blah, blah. And yet I always, I had the attitude of, well, they don't know what they have with me.

AnnE O'Neil: You know? So I called him to make an amend and I, and I said, you know, I wanted to acknowledge that I. Live up to how I could have, what I should have done here and everything. [00:40:00] And again, the in booming English accent, he says, well, we all loved you on your good days. And my response was, well, I thank you for that and I'm happy to say I'm having a lot more good days.

AnnE O'Neil: He says, well that's lovely.

AnnE O'Neil: That's awesome. So yeah, people notice when you start living from your soul. And I was also really glad to see that the. You said, when you live for your soul, you know, I think our society can also get confused and think living for ourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And living for ourself can be a very selfish way of doing things.

AnnE O'Neil: Right. Soulful living has got a lot of room, a room for being available and being of service to oth others as well. Mm-hmm. One of the things that. That Francis Willer talks about is the fact that we live in a largely adolescent society because we haven't been formed to grow, to really [00:41:00] push to grow up.

AnnE O'Neil: And what adulthood really is, is about being willing to start to take responsibility for being a member of the community and serving the community as well. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really important thing to consider and, you know, something that we don't have access to when we're still using, and even when we haven't really healed our grief.

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah. When people say, uh, heal your grief. Mm-hmm.

AnnE O'Neil: How do you, I'm glad you asked that question. You haven't even asked it fully, but because I've had many people say, I will, I, I will never heal from grief. Yeah. And I think that often comes from a misguided sense of loyalty that if healing the grief could mean shutting the door on it, it could mean never thinking about it.

AnnE O'Neil: It could be, and that's not at all what healing from grief is the best description that [00:42:00] I've ever. It was a book that I read shortly after my husband died. It's, it was called Seven Choices by Elizabeth Harper Neil. Mm-hmm. And she talks about the fact that the last stage that she identifies as integration, and it's where you again, find that purpose and meaning that we talked about earlier, that you are.

AnnE O'Neil: Again, able to access joy, um, that you're able to recognize that issues still come up in life, um, but they don't have to define you anymore. And how o, how I often describe it to people is like when you've lost something or someone that had previously defined you, the loss itself will define you for a while.

AnnE O'Neil: But what happens that, that healing from grief is, it's starting to make space for other things. Starting to make space for, uh, new people to come into your life, to new interests. Mm-hmm. Um, and that kind of thing. And that, that's what healing from grief is for me. It's about being able to, you know, get [00:43:00] through to that emerge stage and find a new chapter for yourself.

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Mclendon: So it's amazing. It doesn't go away. You find a way to incorporate

AnnE O'Neil: it, if you will. Right. Yeah. So, um, Monday was my wedding anniversary and I had a tender day. Sure. You know? Sure. And it was 23 years ago, and my husband died 21 years ago. Mm-hmm. And I just made space for it, you know, I, I did what I needed to do.

AnnE O'Neil: I was able to show up. It's been a while. Sure. Mm-hmm. But I also, You know, honored him in my heart. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, it doesn't completely go away, but you know, should it really, right. It's a large part of. What defines who we've become? I had a sponsee once ask me, one of the things that guides me is I have a deep, deep trust that things unfold for my highest good, for all of our highest good, [00:44:00] and at.

AnnE O'Neil: Human ego self cannot see that most of the time. Yep. But I do have that trust, and sometimes I have to remind myself of that trust. And I was having this conversation with the Sponsee one time, and she said, but how can you feel that way after having lost your husband? After having had such short time with him?

AnnE O'Neil: And without even a second thought, the words that came outta my mouth. Because of who I became as a result of that experience of knowing him, of his illness, of his death, and all of it. Um, and I think that's imp an important part of getting to the other side of, of anything that we face in our life, right?

AnnE O'Neil: Is the possibility of, you know, who might I become as a result of this? Mm-hmm. To the good, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

Justin Mclendon: Well, like you mentioned, I mean, I think especially with addiction, right? I mean, we hear so many people that are struggling with substance use disorder that are thinking or kicking the tires of recovery, so to speak.

Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. Exactly to your [00:45:00] point. Like, you know, that fear of like, well, what will I be, you know? Yeah. What will I do with my time? Who will I spend my

AnnE O'Neil: time with? Mm-hmm. I'll be boring. I'll be boring for, right. What am I gonna

Justin Mclendon: do for fun?

AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing what our mind can tell us, you know?

AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. I, mm-hmm. I remember being terrified. It was a long time ago, about the, I will never have fun again. I have had so much more fun in recovery though, right. Ever had. Yeah. Yeah. But you. We don't know what we don't know until, and that's where it's important to have people that, that can share their experience, strength, and hope with us.

AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Both around recovery and around the fact that it's possible to heal from grief. Mm mm-hmm. Um, and to love again, and to, you know, be a part of life again and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Any, uh, thank you so much for meeting with us today. Thank you. Like we'd said earlier, grief is something that we're all experiencing.

Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And it, it [00:46:00] keeps us stuck in, in our pain. Mm-hmm. And, uh, a lot of us are stuck there just because we don't know that there's another side to it. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I, I just feel so blessed and fortunate to hear your story and, and you're telling us that there is another side there, there is a soulful life mm-hmm.

Dr. Harold Hong: In our future. And our higher power desires that for all of us, um, and we can access it. Like, but when you talk with wise people like yourself, when we look for healing, um, in a place, uh, for detox and recovery, and we meet other people who have been on this journey. Mm-hmm. So those resources are out there Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: For people. Um, and, and they just, But it, it's not every day. We might not be aware of it, but there's resources out there and there's hope and mm-hmm. A soulful life ahead for all

AnnE O'Neil: of us. Yeah. Yeah. And I do just wanna offer, if anybody wants to learn more about my perspective, my website is your soul path.com.

Dr. Harold Hong: Excellent. Excellent. So we, we, we'll have to put a link in the, in the description to all the books that [00:47:00] you've shared, uh, all the authors and great minds that you've worked with, and, um, of course, how, how clients can connect to you. Awesome. I'd love with. Thank

AnnE O'Neil: you. Thank you, Annie. Thank you.

In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McClendon are joined by AnnE O'Neil, a grief counselor, interfaith minister, and spiritual counselor. Together, they explore the powerful connection between grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders and how it impacts the journey of recovery.

AnnE shares her personal experience with grief and how it led her to her current work as a grief counselor. She mentions that she came from a family that squelched grief like many other families, and how this impacted her when her mother passed away. She discusses the importance of acknowledging different forms of grief and mentions the five gates to grief identified by Francis Weller.

Throughout the conversation, AnnE shares her insights on the five gates to grief and how it can help people understand the different aspects of grief that they may be experiencing. She mentions how Francis Weller's work can be useful for counselors and therapists to approach grief in a more holistic manner.

AnnE emphasizes the importance of spirituality in the healing process and how it can take many forms depending on the individual. She talks about how it's important to give space to individuals to process their grief and how grief can often be a missing element in substance use treatment. She mentions her experiences working with individuals in recovery and how many of them have never had the opportunity to talk about their grief.

Overall, this episode offers a powerful and insightful conversation on grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders. AnnE's expertise in this area provides a valuable perspective on how we can better support individuals on their healing journey. For those interested in learning more about Francis Weller's work on grief, his book "The Wild Edge of Sorrow" is a great resource to start with.

Find out more about AnnE Your Soul Path and connect with her on Facebook and LinkedIn

Keywords: Grief Counseling, Spiritual Counseling, Interfaith Ministry, Substance Abuse, Addiction Recovery, Healing Journey, Emotional Wellness, Personal Growth, Self-Discovery, Compassion, Forgiveness, Ancestral Healing, Positive Psychology, Mental Health Awareness, Stress Management, Coping Strategies, Self-Care, Mindfulness Practice, Emotional Intelligence, Support Systems, Community Building, Podcast Interview, Thought Leadership, Inspirational Talk, Wellness Education, Holistic Approach, Transformational Change, Finding New Waters Podcast, Expert Insights.