Question 1

Podcast Transcript

Accepted Answer

Eric Button
Eric Button: [00:00:00] So more than likely, every client that says that they worked the 12 steps and it didn't work for them, they, they never worked the 12 steps, right? They, they, they, they, uh, basically just gave the 12 steps lip service, right? They didn't invest in all. So the beneficial ness of having a community that's invested in the, in the 12 steps.
Eric Button: The people that are on the fence are on the edge of the funnel for the 12 steps.
Eric Button: They start having an experience with it because it's the whole culture.[00:01:00] 
Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health.
Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is off in the darkest hour for many families. All right, welcome everybody. Uh, we've got Eric Button with us here today. Eric is the Family Liaison and senior business development representative for B Burning Tree Programs.
Graham Doerge: Welcome, Eric. Thank you for being with us today. Well, 
Eric Button: thank you for having me, Graham. Of course. Welcome. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah, Eric, can I go back a little ways, uh, back to, uh, kind of Texas days and, and great to reconnect with you. Um, you know, I always like starting these, these podcasts off, obviously want to give our listeners, um, a little bit of information on your background and, you know, [00:02:00] how did you get into this field, how did you start working in the behavioral health field?
Graham Doerge: And, uh, maybe just a little bit about your story. Well, 
Eric Button: first off, I'm honored to be on, uh, new Waters Recovery Podcast, finding New Waters. And, um, I got sober on the 21st day of July, 2005. So I just celebrated 18 years. Um, was that last, that was last week. Okay. And, uh, it was, it was the morning. I was not planning on getting sober, but the, uh, uh, the universe used, um, The legal system to help guide me into this funnel of change.
Eric Button: Right? And, um, I got to be a client that, that went to Burning Tree. I had many attempts at getting sober previously. Um, I always seemed to have the jobs, which always afforded me to buy the legal representation [00:03:00] that, um, could allow me to, uh, Continued to live in a way that I thought I was in control of what was going on.
Eric Button: Mm-hmm. Uh, last time I got arrested, I already had bond paid, uh, at a bonding company. All they had to do was just find my name that comes up on the computer and uh, and I got out. So, um, that's how I operate a 
Graham Doerge: bond company. 
Eric Button: Yeah. I mean that. Yeah. And, um, It took me a long time to buy into what this, this theory of honesty is and, uh, because I thought I was in control of everything, so I got to go to Burning Tree as a client.
Eric Button: Um, I would say I was not, uh, I, it is what ultimately saved my life. Um, it took me probably seven months to buy into, um, being honest. Yeah. [00:04:00] Um, and, uh, ever since, um, I have maintained my sobriety and I have enlarged my sobriety on a, on a daily basis, um, I'm sponsored. I have sponsees in the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Eric Button: Um, I got out of Burning Tree in September of 2006. And, uh, while I was a client at Burning Tree, there was a gentleman who was the C e O, his name was Mark Houston. Hmm. Mark Houston called me. I was gonna go work for a guy. Um, I was go, so my entire adult life from basically 15 till 30, um, 36, I was in the car parts business and, um, in management.
Eric Button: Mm-hmm. My last job I was at International Trucking Engine Corporation as the, uh, modification [00:05:00] department, uh, lead, and I had like 23 guys working under me. Wow. Um, I was going to, I got outta burn tree. This is a time when, uh, there really wasn't a lot of, of aftercare. When you leave treatment, there was like Oxford houses, but Sober Living was just starting.
Eric Button: I got outta Burning Tree. I went to an Oxford house and I was gonna go work for a guy that was opening a body shop up in Austin, Texas. And uh, my phone rang and it was a friend of mine who I got sober with at Burning Tree named Greg Rolfe and Mark Houston. And they, uh, called and asked if I thought if I had ever thought about working in the.
Eric Button: Treatment field. Yeah. And I said, no, I hadn't. I, I got a job. I mean, I was gonna go work for this guy named Dave h And um, you know, I would've started out making $20 an hour and, [00:06:00] you know, quickly would've worked my way up. I. Right. Um, so I went out to a place, 
Graham Doerge: a sobriety, a recovery job, right? Yeah. Recovery job.
Graham Doerge: Getting that recovery job. And, and you know, obviously we recommend to, to, you know, young men and, and people kind of in that early phase of, of recovery. You know, get something that's gonna be a little bit lower stress, you know, pay some of the bills, but nothing kind of too, too overwhelming, right? 
Eric Button: Yeah.
Eric Button: Not, not a career job. Right, right. Get your feet wet. Put, uh, put, put my recovery first. Right. Home group. Home group. Uh, continuing to work with my sponsor and, uh, continuing to work the steps. And then I had a referral for a therapist that I was continuing to see and, and just putting the actions into, uh, realization.
Eric Button: Mm-hmm. And, uh, phone rang. So I went out to see Mark. His new place in, in Maynard, Texas called Mark Houston Recovery. It was [00:07:00] actually called the Last Resort when they first opened. And something just told me that, hey, this is, this is kind of cool. So I took a $9 an hour job. $9, and I hadn't made nine. I don't think I ever made $9 an hour right until then.
Eric Button: And, uh, driving the guys and, and, um, just being, um, invested. With them on this path of changing their trajectory. Hmm. And, uh, mark Houston's flourished. It took off. Um, I opened up a transition, uh, program called Addiction Directions, and we worked with all of the clients coming outta Mark Houston. So we had a very robust, um, sober living environment with, uh, post-treatment, uh, discharge plan.
Eric Button: Implementation program called adap, addiction Directions Accountability Program. [00:08:00] And it took off and we had a lot of success. And, uh, like, like everything in life and, um, recovery, things change. There's an ebb and flow to everything. And, uh, we lost Mark, unfortunately, and some of the business partners in the, in the, uh, process, uh, I closed down addiction directions and I had an opportunity from our owner, we're family owned at Burning Tree.
Eric Button: Uh, gentleman named David Elliot reached out and, and asked if I ever thought about coming to work for him. Hmm. And uh, this November I will have been with Burning Tree for 10 years. Wow. And, uh, burning 
Graham Doerge: Tree, which is a, a very long time in, in the recovery fields industry. Yeah. It's, yeah, you're somewhere for more than three years.
Graham Doerge: It's, it seems like a lifetime 
Eric Button: and it's, um, it, it really falls in line with the who I am. I'm a very [00:09:00] loyal type person, as you can tell. I was very loyal to the drugs and alcohol I was using for a long time. Mm-hmm. And, um, I have been in the business development role and have been in the family communication role and, and connecting with the families since I, since I went to Burning Tree and, um, burning Tree's.
Eric Button: Family owned, it was started in 1999, uh, by David Elliot. Um, Our initial program is in Kaufman, Texas. That's our long-term program. Average length to stay is anywhere from eight to 14 months of residential treatment with a 12 month transition period after. Um, we usually seem to have a census of 22 to 28 men and women.
Eric Button: That just seems to be our ebb and flow. Uh, we're not for everybody. We are for the chronic [00:10:00] relapser. Whom have a family component or a, um, I would say a, a power source in their life that continues to enable them to run the show and make decisions. Mm-hmm. Which then in turn allows them to continue to just go to treatment after treatment after treatment.
Eric Button: Average client's probably been to six previous treatments with failure. Um, All of our, all of our staff, except for our clinical director who's in recovery from, uh, for Al-Anon, um, is in recovery. Um, our executive director, Jesse Yearwood, he's a fellow alum of Burning Tree, and uh, we have a clinic. We have a couple of clinicians that are fellow alums.
Eric Button: Majority of our staff, I would say 95% of them are all long-term employees. Mm-hmm. And when I say long [00:11:00] term, I mean eight years plus. Yeah. You guys are so 
Ryan Jarrell: long term over there. That's crazy. To go someplace 14 months and then work there 10 years. Like that's, I know they must serve good food or something.
Ryan Jarrell: Right. 
Eric Button: You know? Right. Yeah. Well, 
Graham Doerge: it's so essential, and, and I know Ryan is dealing with this on a, on a daily basis. Right. And, and that was one of the real reasons I wanted to have you on here today was to kind of talk about this long-term aspect. Right. And, and I love that you highlight that the, your program is really well suited for.
Graham Doerge: Kind of the chronic relapse, right? Yes. Um, because what we're seeing, you know, a ton of here at, at New Waters and really everybody's seen across the country is a lot of these young adult clients who are just, you know, we're not really identifying, uh, truly what, what's happening under the surface. Is there some sort of underlying mental health or, uh, learning disability or maybe on the spectrum or, you know, and, and really just kind of pigeonholing them into the same kind of cookie cutter.
Graham Doerge: Primary substance use track that maybe isn't hitting all the marks right. And they don't get the help that they need. And then ultimately they're in [00:12:00] treatment, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 times. Family's down a half a million dollars, you know, putting 'em in treatment and they, their kid is still sick. Um, so I do, I, I'm a big proponent of this, of the long-term treatment really does work, right?
Graham Doerge: Statistically we know you have a better shot the longer term you stay in, in, in treatment. So, yeah. Yeah. Talk about that a little and, and what y'all do there and your philosophy on 
that. 
Eric Button: The huge, the huge, uh, advantage of long term is, um, every client comes to Burning Tree and they've got other diagnoses other than drugs and alcohol, right?
Eric Button: They do have some mental health. They have some diagnoses of depression or schizoaffective or, or bipolar or, um, an anxiousness. Um, and. What ends up happening in long-term treatment is the client gets to get back to this homeostasis, right? [00:13:00] They're going to bed at a set time, they're getting eight hours of sleep.
Eric Button: They're monitored in their sleep, right bed checks, ensuring that they're, uh, making observations. Oh, we notice that. Mm-hmm. Eric is quite a snore. Okay. Maybe we can do something to help. Create a better sleep for Eric or, um, so we know about everything that's going on. Um, they get up at a set time, they do prayer, meditation, they do, um, they eat breakfast at a set time.
Eric Button: They exert themselves physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. So we're hitting on all these aspects during the day. Um, master level clinicians and work in the steps of, of Alcoholics Anonymous independently, but everything's intertwined. Our psychiatrist, Dr. Uh, Seacrest, a [00:14:00] a, uh, psychiatrist. He's very versed at working with Burning Tree.
Eric Button: He's been with us for 15 years. Um, he's also a fellow at, um, uh, Presbyterian Dallas. Um, in the J five, uh, section of the hospital, which is their mental health wing, um, he's very versed. He's, I would say he is a med minimalist. He's also, uh, does psychotherapy in conjunction with his, his, uh, prescribing if they need anything.
Eric Button: Um, and he sees 'em for a complete hour. Amazing. Right? 
Graham Doerge: What an anomaly 
Eric Button: Not on Zoom. He's out there and he's interacting with the staff, uh, daily or weekly. He, he interacts with staff on Mondays, uh, by, by, uh, uh, zoom. And then when he comes out to see the clients on Fridays, they meet with him and they go over everything.
Eric Button: They, they [00:15:00] share observations of what's going on with each client that he's seeing. And it's very, everything is very intertwined. The clients are working the steps independently from what they're doing clinically. And what that means is staff is not taking 'em through the steps. Hmm. An independent sponsor.
Eric Button: So they go out to meetings every night of the week except for, um, Sunday nights. We have an in-house meeting, we're taking 'em into Dallas, they're driving into van in Vans, and, uh, they're going to gender specific meetings or they're going to, uh, aftercare meeting, or they're going to. Uh, Wednesdays to our Dallas office so they can see their sponsors in person.
Eric Button: We make it easier for the sponsors instead of driving out 45 miles east and south of downtown Dallas. We're, we're bringing the clients into Dallas. The, the sponsors can come out and, um, work with their pons on Sundays and everything [00:16:00] is communicated and it's very, uh, systematic. A client, um, works the steps and the sponsor is signed off on them to move forward from say, step one to step two, and then the client puts in a request to present to the staff they share.
Eric Button: What that current step means to them, and then the staff collectively votes on if they should move forward or if there's something that we think is amiss, we're gonna get with the sponsor and make some suggestions. We're not guiding and directing the sponsor Sponsee relationship, but I would say we're getting shoulder to shoulder with them to work on a common goal.
Eric Button: I would say 95% of our clients, they're all being sponsored by alum that have been separated from Burning Tree for at least two years post. Uh, completing the entire program. Right. 
Ryan Jarrell: Um, I love how you guys intertwine that clinical work, that like cutting edge, clinically astute work with the 12 step modality.
Ryan Jarrell: 'cause so often we see people lean either one way [00:17:00] or the other, right? Where it's like you do the 12 steps, but you're not allowed to take antipsychotics or you're allowed to do everything. But the 12 steps related to spirituality and like holding that balance is, is just so important. Eric, I'm really curious.
Ryan Jarrell: Like I could see why families would be attracted to this program. Like we see plenty of families that are like, Oh, yeah, you can lock 'em up for eight to 14 months. Like, that's not a problem. Um, my my curiosity is for you, yourself, what drove you to engage in this, in this long-term treatment program? 
Eric Button: Well, um, leverage.
Eric Button: Okay. If it wasn't for, if it wasn't for leverage, uh, my, my leverage was, um, legal, correct. Right. Um, There's all kinds of, and, and, and leverage seems like a, a kind of a, it's a truthful word. Mm-hmm. But it's, um, it, I would say we could use opportunity. Right? [00:18:00] There ain't a single, there ain't a single, there ain't a single client that's coming to Burna Tree and they're like, ah, I wanna go to long-term treatment.
Eric Button: Right? Mm-hmm. But the families are on board. And then until, and most families are on board until we start asking them to get involved, right? Mm-hmm. We're wanting them to work with a, a, uh, counselor, therapist, or a, or an addiction consultant or, or some type of, um, extra, um, professional involved in their life.
Eric Button: We're also wanting them to be invested in their own recovery, so Al-Anon, families Anonymous, things like this. And, uh, we're holding them accountable to putting those actions forward. We're wanting the entire system to start having a communication of recovery. Um, so there are families that are on board and then they become resistant just like their, just like their loved one.
Eric Button: I [00:19:00] like using the analogy of a funnel burning trees like a funnel. There's a big end on a funnel, you know what that looks like, and then it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Yep. That big funnel is, uh, is the universe using leverage or opportunity, whatever you wanna call it, to get this client inside the funnel?
Eric Button: And I, I, I'll refer to the funnel as change. Hmm. Several of these clients that come to Burning Tree or, or have had the opportunity to come to New Waters, they get in the funnel, but they always seem to hold onto the rim. Or they just stick their toe in and they're really good at telling people what they want to hear.
Eric Button: Basically their power source. Right? Right. Oh, I, I got this. I'm, I'm, I know exactly what to do now, but they never really invest in getting in the funnel. That funnel is representative of, of the outer part of the funnel is resistance. [00:20:00] The inner part of the funnel is the, the flow of life. And it's the acceptance, right?
Eric Button: As a client, um, gets invested in, in creating a relationship with honesty, they're gonna move towards the center of the funnel and they're gonna, they're gonna have an experience with, and they're gonna like it. Yeah. Then they're gonna hear some truth about themselves or they're gonna bump up against themselves or some kind of circumstance is going to come involved in their life.
Eric Button: Most, uh, I would say a hundred percent of, um, Chronic relapsers are resistant to, um, adversity. Hmm. So adversity's gonna come up and, uh, they're going to migrate toward the edge of the funnel trying to get out. But as they move down and they start having to experience the distance between the resistance and the acceptance, the length of time becomes shorter and shorter and shorter.
Eric Button: And Burning Tree is not [00:21:00] about just holding onto a client and hope through osmosis that they're just gonna change. Mm-hmm. We're gonna be constantly pushing them to, to venture out to the edge of the funnel so they can come back to the center and as a client engages in, um, accepting diversity on life's terms.
Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. 
Eric Button: Then they come out the other end of that funnel. They've been through the 12 steps and it's about wide open freedom. That's what recovery guarantees. I love that. So that's the analogy, analogy that I'd like to use. There's many ups and downs, twists and turns to it. Um, and, uh, Lord knows I had many ups and downs, twists and turns to it.
Eric Button: But, um, life is so rewarding when we take the, uh, position. That was really intended for us when we were born. Yeah. [00:22:00] 
Graham Doerge: And I think that, you know, when I think about, you know, these long-term programs and all that, and, and, and I know Ryan's dealing with this on a daily basis where people are just, they can't even fathom the fact that we're asking them to take even three months to, to go and do something like this.
Graham Doerge: And the reality is, you know, listen, we're we're asking you to. To make an entire psychic shift here. Right. And that is not gonna happen in three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks. Right. And it's just not, you know, maybe you'll have a, you'll have a lot of insight and you'll have a lot of growth during that period, but you're, but you're still truly, the foundation is not there.
Graham Doerge: Right, right. And it's super high risk. So, but it's, it's really interesting where, you know, I just think back to my own, uh, you know, experience and treatment and all that, and I didn't, It's pretty much close to 90 days in, in, in a, an inpatient residential facility, and then did sober living after that. And really, I had no intention of, of doing that long a period of time.
Graham Doerge: But, you know, I had the, the, the. You know, the blessing [00:23:00] of while I was in treatment, just understanding that like, okay, life is not over now because I can't drink or use for the rest of my life. Like, look at all the amazing things I can do now. Look at all the things that I've always wanted to do, but I've never done because I've been sitting in a basement drinking by myself for five years.
Graham Doerge: You know when you can kind of attach to that. And to have that perspective. And it's hard, it's really hard for people to get there. Right. But it certainly is not gonna happen in two, three weeks in most cases. Right. You know, it's just not. And um, and then when I look back at that time, 
Eric Button: sorry, go on. Yeah.
Eric Button: Just like you drinking in that, in that basement, you didn't just start drinking immediately in the basement. It took time to get to that point. That's all I wanted to Yep. I just wanted to, yeah, 
Graham Doerge: and, and you know, and I look back at that, you know, y basically year that I took to really kind of focus on, on building this foundation and, and it was like the blink of an eye.
Graham Doerge: I mean, I think back to that year and it just went, you know, so fast. And, um, [00:24:00] and, and really, I, I would never change a thing. You know, I'm so glad that I did what I did and I put that time in and I had the, you know, I just had the awareness to do that, you know, and I truly feel like I was touched by the hand of God.
Graham Doerge: Um, and, and you know, he just really kind of gave me that awareness to say, you know what? I'm just gonna get outta my own way. I'm gonna surrender to the process and I'm gonna do whatever you guys tell me I need to do. And when I did that, it got so easy. It got so easy. Yeah. So, yeah, 
Eric Button: the re got in the middle of the.
Eric Button: Right. 
Ryan Jarrell: A hundred percent. So many of us were not willing to accept that we have a fatal disease. Right. And that's really what it comes down to. That's what I see in our clients as we're working with them again and again. They think this is an overreaction because they don't have a fatal disease. If we were marching in those rooms and telling them they had pancreatic cancer and this was a type of chemotherapy that would affect that, how we wouldn't be able to hold them back from the chemo clinic.
Ryan Jarrell: Right. Wouldn't matter if it was in Texas. Wouldn't matter if it took six months. Um, and that was true for me too, and, and I had to realize. That's exactly what I have. [00:25:00] I had to realize that I had to realize I was gonna die from it. 'cause otherwise I wasn't gonna put it first. You know, I'm someone who, personally, I had a very limited like, um, kind of recovery and treatment experience.
Ryan Jarrell: I had to go and figure it out on my own because resources and insurance, they just weren't available at that time. And I would much rather do this on a, I would've much rather done it on a ranch in Texas than work in a Chinese food restaurant. You know what I mean? Going to 7:00 AM meetings. 'cause I work all night and I think about the pain that I put my family to, not just in addiction but in early sobriety too.
Ryan Jarrell: Getting to know my now wife, you know, to be able, what we're offering people is. Is relief from a fatal disease in as comfortable a location as possible. But until they can hear that, they're not going to accept it. And, and it's, it's a wonderful that they get to wait and they get to have all those breakthroughs.
Ryan Jarrell: And I did have those breakthroughs in sobriety, but to be able to be shepherded and, and be in an intimate community, there's no intimate community. I'm sure. Like what you guys have going on at Burning Tree. Yeah. The way that people get to know each other and hold each other, it's just, I'm sure it's wonderful to be a [00:26:00] part of.
Ryan Jarrell: Yep. 
Eric Button: Yeah. Um, you know, we, we don't recover by ourself. No, 
Graham Doerge: a hundred percent. So, yeah. And that's, that's the beauty of, of. Of this life after, right? I mean, it becomes so full. And, um, and, you know, I, I also, uh, just wanted to kind of touch on, you know, the other, the other component that I think is really important for families to hear is they're kind of trying to navigate, you know, these, these complex issues with their loved ones is, you know, the, the fact that you are kind of a mom and pop operation, right?
Graham Doerge: You're a small operation. You run pretty lean, uh, you know, lean from, lean from the census, uh, aspect, but not from staffing, but, You guys? Um, I think that that is a huge thing for me, right? When I'm, when we're referring clients out, we're typically, we're trying to look for a smaller, more boutique type program that's kind of family owned and operated in my experience.
Graham Doerge: It's just, you know, you're gonna get better service, you're gonna get better care. You know, clinical team, you know, a lot of the time is just gonna be a little bit more bought in. [00:27:00] Um, they're probably treated a little bit better, culture's a little bit better, so, you know. Yeah. Talk about that a little bit if you could.
Eric Button: So the, um,
Eric Button: The, the, the biggest advantage is the length of time for these clients. It's very peer driven, right? So you have, you have senior clients that's been there for 8, 9, 10 months. So they get to implement the principles of recovery in their life, and they get to give back to the newcomers that are coming in.
Eric Button: So that aspect is huge on building community. And then that community is what's gonna trans translate into them implementing in their life. The other thing on the family aspect of it is, um, they have been so wrapped up and so involved in trying to fix it mm-hmm. But not really taking an investment in [00:28:00] fixing themselves.
Eric Button: Hmm. That this period of time where, and quite frankly I'm just gonna say it, their loved one is their drug. Mm-hmm. Right? Absolutely. So as they start having an experience of being free from having to fix it or, or control it, um, both sides of the coin can heal. And then both sides of the coin can come back together in a new relationship.
Eric Button: And that, I hope that answers, I think that answers what you're talking about. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. And absolutely. And I think that, you know, obviously, and, and the family, you know, programming that you guys do now, do you guys do, I would assume you have kind of several, uh, family, uh, meeting or on campus events or throughout the time 
Eric Button: that you're there.
Eric Button: So fam so this is the, so with family, Yeah. Um, a lot of communication with them in the [00:29:00] beginning. Um, we do what we call a post admission intervention. That's a process that I get to facilitate. The client's been with us two to six weeks, okay. 95% of the clients, unless I'm outta town, I've got to meet them when they were in detox.
Eric Button: That are coming to the ranch. So I'm making connection with them in the very beginning, or I've talked to 'em on the very front end, or sometimes I've talked to the family on the very front end. So a client comes to the ranch, we're assembling the entire, uh, support system, right? Uh, the client's counselor, myself, uh, the power in their life could be mom, dad.
Eric Button: Mom's in Atlanta, dad's in Jacksonville, Florida. They're divorced. And then maybe the loved one has four [00:30:00] siblings, bringing everybody together, creating a relationship with them, meeting with them, expanding on, and, and, uh, inviting them to set realistic boundaries, not boundaries that they think we want to hear, but realistic boundaries.
Eric Button: Because what we want to do is help solidify this client in the funnel. Mm-hmm. They're gonna test the boundaries because they have already been testing boundaries or, or families tell, oh, if you don't do this, you're you're not gonna get any more money. Or you're not gonna, we're not gonna do this. We're No, we, if you leave, don't call me 'cause I'm not answering the phone.
Eric Button: Well, that's not realistic. Okay. Okay. We want, we want to help the family set something that is their truth. So we set these boundaries. We bring the client in. They're only gonna see their loved 1, 10, 20 minutes. [00:31:00] It's basically a business meeting that we're conducting, and that business meeting is for their loved one that's at Burning Tree to hear what the family's boundaries are and what their hopes are.
Eric Button: And, and, and. What an opportunity that they are giving their loved one. Yeah. I love Then the, then the, then the client gets to accept or they may bump up against themselves. They may be angry, many, it's very organic and uh, then they accept what's going on and then we want to hear what their commitment is.
Eric Button: And what we're looking for is for them to verbally commit. And we know that every addict alcoholic is very good at committing to doing things. Mm-hmm. And then it's up to us to help them put the action forward to actually realize it. Um, so we, that's the first process. We don't have visitation every month at Burning Tree.
Eric Button: We have visitation every other month. A client will have had [00:32:00] an opportunity to be with us for at least 30 days prior to a visit. Um, so we have visitation every other month, uh, every even month, which would be the third sun Sunday of the month. When a family has a loved one that's with us, their first visitation, they get to attend a family workshop that we facilitate at our Dallas office.
Eric Button: That family workshop consists of our owner and founder, our executive director, our clinical director, our our transitions director, an alumni, an alumni family, myself, and sometimes our uh, chief operating Officer, who's also. A, uh, alum of the program, Brooke McKenzie will be there, and then the families, and then what we're doing is our goal is to answer their questions about what Burning Tree is and what our processes are without them having to ask 'em, but then [00:33:00] giving them a format where they can ask.
Eric Button: And it's very interactive and it's very, uh, you know, the alumni and the family, they do a real good job of, of explaining what's gone on. Yeah, what helped them change and the, and the, and the roadblocks. And then we don't have family program until the client is through and in the amen's process, we want them to internalize what's going on.
Eric Button: The family program is a three day, uh, intensive. Usually it's two to four clients, just depending on the line, the lineup. Hmm. And their, and their loved ones. Some, some clients will go through family two or three times. Wow. Depending on what the family dynamics are. It's, uh, we bring in a lady named, um, um, oh, I'm drawing a blank.
Eric Button: She's got a counseling office. Um, Angie [00:34:00] Booya. She has a counseling office in Dallas called Sparrow House Counseling. Very, very, uh, um, she would 
Graham Doerge: best 
Eric Button: to you. She is L L P C. L P C, got it. L P C and then our clinical director, and they facilitate. So we have somebody that's comes in that's not really connected with the family or the client and then works in conjunction with our clinical director.
Eric Button: And it's lot of psychodrama, different modalities that they use in the process. And it's a three day, uh, experience. That's awesome. Every family that comes to Burning Tree, they have been through numerous family programs and they're very jaded. Sure, 
Graham Doerge: true. So it's very 
Eric Button: different. They wanna treat treatment.
Ryan Jarrell: They wanna treat treatment like a fishbowl with which to look at the loved one, 
Eric Button: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, uh, and then they, and then they do family program. And then, and then the client continues to do treatment. And before [00:35:00] they transition, From residential treatment, they start, uh, integrating into transitions.
Eric Button: And that's a slow process, you know, um, we give 'em a little bit of room, pull back, see how they handle it, give 'em a little bit more room, let 'em, let 'em navigate some adversity, pull back and, um, it's, it's, it's very organic. Process each. Each client has, you know, different needs and different, um, circumstances.
Eric Button: Um, we do, uh, lots of trauma work in conjunction with treatment, um, you know, all kinds of modalities that they use. Um, drew McLaughlin and, and, and our clinical director, Megan Bowman, they'll do E M D R and some psychodrama and. They'll utilize, um, equine [00:36:00] therapy and other, other opportunities. And sometimes, yeah, we may find that a client needs a little bit more and, and, and we use some, some partners, you know, like, um, onsite or milestones or Right.
Eric Button: Or, or the bridge or something like that. In conjunction with, then they'll come back and continue their treatment or what we're very. We're very, uh, collaborative and uh, we want the best to maximize the opportunity for the client to get and stay sober. 'cause that's what we're about. 
Graham Doerge: So you've had clients go to onsite and do you know, a trauma workshop?
Graham Doerge: The living center program? I would, I would assume and then come back to you guys. That's awesome. 
Ryan Jarrell: Yep. What I, what I love about this process, I think is it's really evocative of actual recovery. Like 30 day residential treatment is fantastic. I think we can all agree on that, especially for those, it's effective for, you go in for 30 days, you do like the graduation ceremony at the end, like [00:37:00] everyone claps, but it also paints this picture kind of like this show intervention, that recovery is just this straight lineup.
Ryan Jarrell: And we're just going to kind of rocket ship right up. And my experience working in transitional living is there are gonna be peaks and there are gonna be valleys throughout that recovery process. And we're gonna take some steps back and hopefully it doesn't involve use. Right? But we're gonna crash sometimes.
Ryan Jarrell: And for someone to be present and, and to attend to that and just acknowledge it as a reality is so, so important in the recovery landscape. Oh 
yeah. 
Eric Button: And the, the other piece is, um, our clients. They're gonna be invested in the, in the recovery process, right along the whole, the whole thing. When they get ready to make amends, um, you know, they're gonna be, they're gonna be instructed through their sponsor.
Eric Button: They're gonna put in for a request to go on a pass to make amends. They're gonna take a buddy with them, that's a peer in the community, and they're gonna go on a men's proce. They're gonna go on a men's [00:38:00] trip so they can get some more power in their life. And project accepting what their past was and making amends for it.
Eric Button: Like, Hey, this is what I did. Is there anything I missed? What is it I can do to make this right? And, and doing the actions of doing this. We want them to experience all of the steps. Yeah. 
Graham Doerge: And what are you doing with clients who are, um, you know, anti 12 steps, uh, that are just really not, not involved in, or, or, or open to, you know, any sort of tall up programming, are they?
Graham Doerge: So I would, 
Eric Button: I would say this, this is the common thing that comes to Burning Tree or the common scenario. A client will come to us and they say, oh, I've done the 12 steps. They don't work for me. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. What, tell me what that looks like. What, what did [00:39:00] that experience look like? Is that you go into a couple room meetings and just sitting in the back of the room, never introducing yourself, never talking to anybody, because if that's what it looked like, then, you know, that's not really what recovery is, right?
Eric Button: Yeah. So more than likely, every client that says that they worked the 12 steps and it didn't work for them, they, they never worked the 12 steps, right? They, they, they, they, uh, Basically just gave the 12 steps lip service, right? Mm-hmm. They didn't invest in all, so the beneficial ness of having a community that's invested in the, in the 12 steps, the people that are on the fence or on the edge of the funnel for the 12 steps,
Eric Button: they start having an experience with it because it's the whole culture, right? And then once they do, then they take off. Yeah. And that's been 
Graham Doerge: our experience. You'll bring those folks in and, and hopefully they [00:40:00] attach to it. They, you know, oh yeah. With the attraction. Right. And hopefully they see the rest of the crew is, is all super engaged and involved and, and, and then they hop on board as well once they kind of see the benefits from that aspect.
Graham Doerge: Yeah. And 
Eric Button: Eric, the other aspect is, oh, go ahead. 
Ryan Jarrell: I, I just have a quick question. You know, one of the things that I think we see is a lot of guys who, who. They've been institutionalized. Sometimes they've gone to therapeutic boarding schools or wilderness programs starting at 16, and these guys have been in treatment for 10 years and there's a fear that there's a little treatment dependence there.
Ryan Jarrell: Mm. Like they can live in these institutionalized environments, but they're scared or they can't engage. When or is there a point, I know you guys are long term, is there a point where you have to push some guys out of the nest and what does that look like? 
Eric Button: Oh, yes. So, um, We have an owner and we have a philosophy of Burning Tree.
Eric Button: We're not in the business of taking these families money to change their loved one if the client continues to not put the effort forward. And [00:41:00] it's, it's all about behavior, right? If they're not putting the investment or following directions, or, or doing the things that we're expecting them to do, we're, uh, we're not just gonna, we're not just gonna hold onto 'em.
Eric Button: We're gonna find a. Opportunity for them to move on somewhere else. Yeah. Or a client is gonna find an exit because they don't want to do what we're asking them to do. Right. And then they hope that their family's going to cave and, uh, go back to what they used to do, which was pick up the pieces and allow them to continue to do what they do.
Eric Button: Um, majority of the time, I would say, 30% of the clients that come to Burning Tree, they're gonna test the waters. They're gonna walk off, they're gonna leave, they're gonna see if the, the family's really invested in holding the line for them to, to be in this funnel of [00:42:00] change. Um, and, uh, what that does, it helps the collective group, right.
Eric Button: Um, yeah, deepen their investment in putting the effort forward. It's not easy. Burning Tree is not easy. No. Um, I know 
Graham Doerge: this is easy, 
Eric Button: high, high reward. Um, very high reward for the entire system. And 
Graham Doerge: what's your, what's your, i, i you something success rate. Do you, do you guys track that? Do you have any idea? So it's very hard.
Eric Button: It's very hard to, to track that. Mm-hmm. Um, I can tell you this from my personal experience and from many others that I know that are in their recovery, in their life, the clients and the families. So the [00:43:00] clients that worked all 12 steps and were invested in following directions and, uh, were invested in always looking for opportunities to not fall back into the resistance.
Eric Button: The success rate is huge. Yeah. Those families, those families that invest in their own recovery, 12 step. Um, recovery in conjunction with working with other professionals involved in their life that increases, the families can destroy what was gone, what took five months. They can, they can tear it down in, in five minutes.
Eric Button: Mm-hmm. Yeah. As long as the entire system has made these productive changes and then got into action around those changes, I. The success rate is very high. The other thing that goes on with, um, increasing the [00:44:00] success rate is, especially with the family and especially with the client, they know everything about what we do and how we do it.
Eric Button: The client knows what the expected length of stay is. The expected length of stay is based upon them and their progress. Yeah. We don't want anybody at Burning Tree Ranch any longer than they need to be there. Right. The only thing that's fixed on time is the transition program, and that's 12 months. The other thing, we are nicotine free at Burning Tree have been for, for seven years.
Eric Button: Wow. I would say the number of smokers and tobacco users. Uh, has decreased over time. Yeah. Um, what I mean is, um, we do probably one to [00:45:00] three admissions a month. The past few months, um, none of those people were nicotine users, which is, which is astounding. Yeah. It's mad. But we do have the ones that, that are right.
Eric Button: Yeah. And, uh, We completely take the nicotine out of the equation. If they're dependent on upon nicotine, we're gonna have a cessation plan. We're either gonna use a patch or we're gonna use a lozenge. Oh man. The families are on board with it, and the clients are on, I mean, they're not on board with it, but that's the fact.
Eric Button: That's the, we're, we're, we're not, we're not, uh, we're not gonna, we're. We're about setting the example of 100% honesty at the get go, which then in turn is to their success. 
Ryan Jarrell: Pardon? I said I didn't know if Burning Tree would've been for me. Man. I, I'm with you a hundred percent. I know it would've saved my life, but I don't know if I could've quit smoking.
Ryan Jarrell: That's something Well, [00:46:00] you, you evidently 
Eric Button: need, you didn't need burning trees. 
Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. That's true. What about caffeine? You put caffeine in the coffee, so 
Eric Button: we do. So we do have caffeine. Yes. Oh, nice. Okay. 
Graham Doerge: Well, little, yeah, a little, you know, lean a lot. Lean a lot. 
Eric Button: Don't, you can't, can't drink caffeine till, till bedtime.
Eric Button: But yes, we have caffeine. Yeah. And transition process is completely nicotine free. Wow. Which adds to success. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah, it does. Yep. That's, and we're, 
Eric Button: we're not afraid that it's going to affect a client coming to us because we're not allowing 'em to smoke. We're just not. We're, we're not, we're not, we're invested in 100% success and we want to do, yeah, I think that's, 
Graham Doerge: there's so much.
Graham Doerge: Yeah, it says so much about, you know, you guys as a program, your ethics, you know, really kind of standing behind what, what you kind of, uh, [00:47:00] are set forward as your, as your mission. And, uh, because most programs do allow, quite frankly, because, you know, people won't admit. You know, in a lot of cases if you can't smoke at a facility, so obviously you guys are creating a barrier there, but it's important to you a higher success rate, better outcomes.
Graham Doerge: Um, so that's, that's amazing. I think that says a lot about kind of what you guys were doing in general. 
Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. And how invested you are in, in truly making people well as opposed to just getting heads and beds down at the ranch over there, you know? Correct. Um, because it would be so easy to fold on that.
Ryan Jarrell: But the clients that you guys are dealing with, they have to know that there are natural consequences and that there are, I. Lines in the sand and there are rules that you just have to follow in life, you know? Yeah. And it's something that I was so resistant to learning, and so many of us, we just naturally chomp at the bit to be told.
Ryan Jarrell: No, I mean, do you remember how much energy you would invest to not be told No. In something? Mm-hmm. You know, 
Eric Button: well, we, we like, we like flipping the verbiage. I really [00:48:00] like using the, um, the verbiage of this is something I get to do. Hmm. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. Instead of no, of op opportunity as well. Right. And opportunity 
Eric Button: and, and it's all, it's all about the culture 
Graham Doerge: and a shift in perspective, right?
Graham Doerge: When you kind of make that little bit of a shift, you're like, ah, okay, this is, that is a little bit of a different connotation. Yeah. So, But, um, well, listen, Eric, we're, we're coming up on our time and, and yeah. You know, it's been such a pleasure getting to, uh, see you and, and we haven't connected in a while, but I'm actually back in Texas, uh, next week, so we'll have to, we'll have to connect.
Graham Doerge: Are you, but do you have lunch? Anything that, yeah, let's have lunch, but would you, is there anything that you wanna plug here? Uh, maybe Burning Tree's website or anything like that? 
Eric Button: I mean, just, just burning tree.com. But, but what I, what I really want to ask is, um, You, Graham, and I really like the, uh, the name New Waters.
Eric Button: Thank you. And [00:49:00] the, and the, the, the, the, the message that it puts out then there in the universe. Yeah. How did, how did New Waters, how did it come to Yes, please. So that was 
Graham Doerge: really my wife and I, um, really just kind of brainstorming when we were kind of creating the program. And, and, uh, and I, I think it probably actually was my wife who came up with it.
Graham Doerge: Uh, she's, she's really good at that, that kind of stuff. And, and I, when I heard it, I was like, Ooh, I like that. Um, but we were just really kind of floating ideas and, and just the idea of, you know, water I think is, uh, is a very kind of powerful energy and, and, you know, is an important energy in my life. I'm a Pisces.
Graham Doerge: I love the water, I love free diving. I love. Spearfishing, I love fly fishing. Um, so, you know, I really wanted to have a, a water aspect in it. And then just the aspect of, of, you know, finding new waters, finding new waterways and, and a new life recovery and all of that [00:50:00] aspect of it kind of fit well. So it was, it was good.
Graham Doerge: It fit and, and we're doing great here and it's been a really fun project to, to get off the ground. 
Eric Button: And then how, how did you come about. New waters is in North Carolina. How'd you come about finding your location? 
Graham Doerge: So we, there was a couple gentlemen here that I really knew that I could build something around.
Graham Doerge: Um, and knowing that I would kind of be back and forth from Texas to Carolina. Um, so, you know, really, and, and looking at, you know, the market and obviously Raleigh is an incredible city to, to have a business right now. It's, it's blowing up, you know, very similar to, to Austin in a lot of ways. Right? It almost reminds me of Austin kind of 10 years ago.
Graham Doerge: Right. Um, and tons of industry, you know, coming to Raleigh and, um, so, you know, there was, there was just a lot of really positive reasons to do something here. And coupled with the fact that they needed resources, right? There wasn't really anything like what we're doing here, um, at this kind of [00:51:00] higher level, uh, kind of smaller boutique, but really, you know, sophisticated detox.
Graham Doerge: Um, so the opportunity was great and we had the, the team was here and, and we just kind of, we went for it and, uh, it's been great. 
Eric Button: Well, I'm excited to hear about how you came up with the name and the location, and I'm really honored to, uh, to, uh, meet you both on your show. And, uh, thank you ma'am. Thank you for having me.
Graham Doerge: I'm honored. Fantastic. I know we're honored to have you and always great to connect with you man, and see your conferences. Yeah. And, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, dapper in your orange and orangey. Grateful. 
Eric Button: There you go. Awesome. There you go. Hashtag long term works. You got 
Graham Doerge: term, long term works. So if anybody wants to find Burning Tree Recovery, burning Tree Lodge, it's uh, burning Tree, uh, recovery.com.
Graham Doerge: Yeah, 
Eric Button: ree.com and or burning tree programs.com. Um, and then 8 6 [00:52:00] 6 2 8 7 2 8 7 7. 
Graham Doerge: Fantastic. Alright, thanks so much Eric. We'll talk soon. Thanks Eric. Have a great day. Bye.

Question 2

Show Notes

Accepted Answer

In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care.

Eric Button talks candidly about the unique 12-step program at Burning Tree Ranch, explaining its focus on full engagement and ongoing care. He emphasizes the critical role of family support in the rehabilitation journey and offers insights into the facility's policies, including its status as a nicotine-free environment. Graham Doerge offers a glimpse into his North Carolina-based program, New Waters, highlighting its boutique and specialized approach to detox and recovery.

Both guests discuss the importance of implementing rules and natural consequences, as well as the positive impact of a culture built on uplifting language. The episode also provides practical information for those interested in learning more about either facility.

Whether you're a recovery professional, a family member of someone struggling with addiction, or someone on their own journey to sobriety, this episode offers invaluable insights into the evolving landscape of addiction recovery. Tune in to learn why "long-term works" when it comes to beating addiction for good.

Eric's Links: 
⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-t-button-prss-b8620624/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-t-button-prss-b8620624/)
⁠https://www.burningtree.com/⁠(https://www.burningtree.com/)

Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

Why Long-Term Recovery Works with Eric Button