"Addiction isn't just an isolated experience; it's a tangled web of emotions, thoughts, and behaviors that touches everyone involved. To truly heal, we must unravel the threads and face our challenges with compassion, understanding, and a willingness to change."

John Craichy

John Craichy: [00:00:00] Oh, nature of addiction I is that you can't say no. Exactly. You don't want to stop if like, if you're truly addicted. Not from any pejorative sense, but just like that's what addiction means, right? Is that, is that, is that you don't want to stop. You don't know how to stop you. You can't imagine. What it would be like to live life without that support. John Craichy: Absolutely. Like, like, well, okay, all you gotta do is be willing. And then what, you enter an environment where other people are facing that. I mean, for some people you have to hit the crisis, right? Sure. It and, and when I say crisis, I mean life disruption. It doesn't have to be a complete tragedy, unfortunately. John Craichy: That's the scary part, right? Yeah. You don't get to control how that unfolds. And so I'm for. All the invitation you can, all the setup. Mm-hmm. All the recovery tools, all the um, recovery capital that you can muster in a situation, and [00:01:00] it's gonna be somebody else's. Choice. Graham Doerge: Good morning and welcome to Finding New Waters. My name is Graham Durge and I'm the founder and c e O of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined today by by our executive director, Justin McClendon and therapist John Creche. John is a licensed clinical social worker who works with teens and young adults specializing in trauma, addiction and change management. Graham Doerge: He serves as board president of Journeyman Triangle, a teen mentoring and leadership development organization, and as a member of the advisory board for Ncsu Masters in Social. John does most of his [00:02:00] work with young adults, teens and their families who have suffered with trauma, addiction, dependencies, and various forms of failure to. Graham Doerge: John's approach is highly relational with a solid back background in neuroscience, human development, substance use, and various modalities for trauma recovery, including emdr. In addition, he started young adult intensive outpatient. He's, let me redo that part real quick. In addition, he started a young adult intensive outpatient program for Triangle Springs, worked as an emergency room clinician, an in-home therapist prior to that. Graham Doerge: Our goal in creating finding new orders is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting the loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in a crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour for many families. Graham Doerge: So John, thanks for being with us today. Yeah. Glad to be with you. Of course. And, um, You know, we've, we've obviously had a little bit of time to connect here, uh, before getting on on live. And, [00:03:00] um, you know, one of the things that I love to start out with in, in a lot of these, uh, episodes is I'd love to get just like a little bit of an idea for how did you get into this work? Graham Doerge: How did you get into this field? Um, I find that it's, it's always pretty interesting. There's always a, a good story kind of aligned with that, typically because, Again, this isn't really, um, this isn't work that, you know, you kind of grow up and say, that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. You, you know, there's some sort of episode or situation that kind of brings us to, to the work that we do. Graham Doerge: Um, so tell us a little bit about how you got into the behavioral health field. John Craichy: Oh, wow. Um, I've got three sons. They're all late twenties, early thirties now. And I think the challenges of parenting and, well, frankly, going through divorce, I. Support going through that process. And, and I, um, that support allowed me to really, um, shift the way I show up in the world. John Craichy: And, and like a big target for me was [00:04:00] I really want to be friends with my kids. Mm-hmm. In their twenties, like when they come back, you know, it's like kids, teenagers don't wanna be around y'all often, a lot of times, but when they come back, I. I, I want to done, have done enough that my kids really want to know me. John Craichy: Yeah. And, um, and, um, Dennis, Dennis Parnell, the guy who founded The Healing Place, um, he challenged me to go back and do it professionally when he saw the stuff I was doing with Journeyman and with Mankind project and coaching with friends, he. I sat down with him at the end of, uh, end of a kind of end of the year lunch and catching up, and he said to me, John, I know you, you don't need a degree to do this kind of work. John Craichy: Hmm. But you have to have a degree to do this kind of work, so when are you gonna suck it up and do what you don't want to do so you could do what you're called to do? Yeah. Yep. Like, if there's exact words you said to me, I still remember 'em, and, and he was exactly right. Yeah. [00:05:00] I, I really. Um, a drive, do this kind of work. John Craichy: And I mean, I was working with the Biotech Center and the Small Business and Technology Development Center before that was an entrepreneur. Yeah. I spun a couple technologies out of NC State. Yep. And I liked strategy and business planning and I always thought a business plan was like the Hebrews journey. John Craichy: Right. You know, and so I always kind of thought that way. And then when I got an opportunity to really work with, with people with personal stuff, I just found it. It was more rewarding for me. I mean, like I still like the business thing a lot. It's fun. I'm geeky that way, but like, yeah, there's just something about working with people and their families that that. John Craichy: I was just, I don't know, I guess that touched me so deeply and I Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, uh, obviously it's, it's tough to work in this field from a lot of perspectives because, um, you know, obviously we see a lot of people that don't make it. [00:06:00] Um, we see a lot of people that aren't successful. Graham Doerge: Um, the, the success rates in general, I think are, are pretty abysmal, you know, in, in the behavioral health field. And we're, we're obviously always trying to kind of figure out how we can be better at that. But you know, it, it's, it's so amazing when we get a client that comes in and, and the light has turned back on in their eyes, and, and that's what it's all about at the end of the day. Graham Doerge: You know? Absolutely. Uh, when you see those alumni come back, when you see those clients come back who have taken the suggestions, who have followed the path, gotten out of their own way, uh, surrendered to the process and, and, you know, incredible things happen for them, so, Um, yeah. Incredibly rewarding work that we do, but also in really hard work too. Graham Doerge: Um, now, and, and I know, you know, from kind of looking at, at your bio and all that, that you, you like to work a lot with families and, and kind of young adult patients Yeah. As well. So tell us a little bit about the, the work you do with young adults. Yeah, John Craichy: sure. Yeah. You know what's really big in my mind, just cuz you said about the, the pain and, you know, doing this kind of work mm-hmm. John Craichy: Like [00:07:00] the, the. The reason I, I don't think I'll burn out. You know, it is painful when you lose someone. Yeah. That's really absolutely tough, um, to move through. But in general, I don't see it as my job to fix people's pain. Right. That I think the pain is an invitation to wake up. And like, I, I respect pain deeply. John Craichy: Like, like I don't tell somebody who's in the middle of the pain, oh, that's gonna be a gift to you. You know, it's like the appropriate response to that. Well, wouldn't be appropriate on a podcast. Right, right. But, but like th that's the big thing to me, is like I see my job as trying to partner with a person for them to understand their pain and shift their relationship Yep. John Craichy: To it. Mm-hmm. So that's where the client, but oh gosh, maybe even more so with parents, like with family, it's like when you see your kid suffering, You know, someone said to me that having a, having a kid is like, is like taking your heart and putting it on the [00:08:00] outside of your chest. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, anybody can hurt you and there's nothing you can do about it. John Craichy: Yeah. And, and I see that as the source of so much of the trouble. It's like you, you train a kid up and they start being independent or rebellious and, and at that, You know, you don't have direct control anymore. Mm-hmm. You know, you have to figure out what kind of influence you have, but like mm-hmm. You don't have control. John Craichy: And so they're subject to, well, the world and all the things that happen in their own immaturities and, and so figuring out how to help someone help. Their kids and help themselves is, is I guess, a big part of what attracts me to it. I like doing that part of the work. Graham Doerge: Well, and it's so counterintuitive too, right? Graham Doerge: As a parent, you know, I've got three daughters myself, and as a parent, when you see your kids struggling, you want to circle 'em up, hug 'em, and you know, just never let 'em leave, right? Yeah. Um, and that's, that obviously doesn't work in this situation. Right. And I think that's [00:09:00] a big thing that. On a daily basis or are talking to families about is codependency enabling the situation, you know, finding where that leverage is for these young adult clients specifically. Graham Doerge: Like is it financial? Are, are they providing, you know, a roof over their head? Um, and really, you know, trying to kind of, you know, manipulate in a lot of ways to, uh, help them make the right decision. And, um, you know, can you elaborate a little bit on that, Justin? Yeah, no, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. I think. You know, some things we were talking about before we, before we went live is, you know, I think a lot of times if, especially if you have a young person that is struggling, right? Justin Mclendon: Or whether it's an active addiction or there's other things that are going on, or they're just stuck in that place as you, as you, uh, refer to it as this kind of dependent position, if you will. Uh, I think there's just a lot of underdevelopment and the, there's a lot of inability to make appropriate decisions to, you know, to better change the, their life, right? Justin Mclendon: And I think that's where the parents can come in, in those situations, right? Being able to provide the correct [00:10:00] influence, you know, set the appropriate boundaries to assist them in making the right decisions. And that's a lot of the work that we wind up doing here is trying to help. Families that maybe have never, uh, charted those waters before. Justin Mclendon: To be able to understand why these things are important, help them understand a little bit of what's kind of going on in that family dynamic, and then to coach them in the direction of like, okay, well how can we assist right now to get 'em to make at least the next right decision? And then we can kind of figure things out from there. Right, John Craichy: right. Yeah. I mean Right. You learn that Yeah. In the process, right? Like everybody wakes. And they're already swimming down the river. Yeah. You know, it's not like you get to sit and decide when's the right time and the right place and who you want to go with. It's like when consciousness hits you, consciousness of the problem mm-hmm. John Craichy: Consciousness of of, of the need to do something, you're already like caught up in it already. And so, uh, a lot of that is, you know, people get well when, when, when a kid's born, they're deep. Yeah. It's a, you know, an infant is [00:11:00] never wrong and it's always your responsibility to meet their need. Yeah, right. So it's like, one of the few things that's still sacred in our culture, I think is a mother's love for an infant. John Craichy: It's like, that's it. Yeah. But then like, then they're a toddler and then they are wrong sometimes. And, and either way they're, they whine and you do something about it. So it's still, it's still they're expressing. I'm not. Okay. And you need to do something about it. Mm-hmm. Still dependent, right? Mm-hmm. But so you do something about it and you try to get 'em to quit whining and to use their words. John Craichy: Yep. Right? And they get a little older, and then they're using their words, but they're like, they're like little attorneys, you know? It's like, I'm hungry. Which means you need to make me dinner. Right. But, you know, and, but that's a simple one, but it's like, well, my friends get to do it. You know, like, like there's all kinds of things that, that Well, people learn to act and manipulate, right? John Craichy: Yeah. You, you, you learn your parents' buttons. Right? Exactly. And, and so you're, [00:12:00] the kids are highly practiced at, um, even if they're not even aware of it, right. At what they need to. In order to get somebody to, to do something different. Yeah. It's so instinctual. Um, you know, there's, um, the funny one that, that falls in that same line. John Craichy: Well, the not funny one that falls in that same line is suicide ideation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, most of the time suicide ideation is, it's a cry for hell. But it's, but it's a statement. It's the hot button statement of, I'm not okay. And you need to do something. I mean, you have to take it seriously because, well, it's serious for one. John Craichy: Yeah. But, but for most people, it's a dependent cry for help. It's, it's just, that's the end of the track. That's where I think most people say that at some point. Mm-hmm. And if they're not saying that, they're saying something like, if that happens again, I'm gonna lose my sh you know? Right. It, which is the same thing. John Craichy: It's saying, I [00:13:00] can't tolerate the way things are or how I feel. Right. And I don't know how to proactively do anything about it. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna act out disruptively. Yep. And I'll accept the random result. You know, somebody else will have to do something different mm-hmm. To make it Okay. And then I'll accept whatever happens from that. John Craichy: It's dependence. Yeah. Which to me is the. The core part of that's why, you know, addicts, even older addicts are, you know, people with substance use disorder. Mm-hmm. I, I respect that when I'm talking clinically, you know, I talk about the category, but like, when you're talking about an individual, it really matters. John Craichy: They're not an addict. They're a person that's wrestling with problems. Right. Often trauma, often other things. But, but anyway. When, um, when juice, I'm sorry, I just lost my place. I Good. Pick it up. Justin Mclendon: Can you think about it? Yeah. So, uh, a thought that was coming up cuz we're talking about parents and how parents can potentially, or how the situation arises [00:14:00] and then how parents kind of respond and maybe even help sometimes keep them in that dependent position by protecting them from their pain. Justin Mclendon: So I wonder, you know, you've talked a lot about this kind of bio psychosocial, spiritual model and some other ways that. That you, uh, described that maybe, maybe it would be helpful to kind of just outline that a John Craichy: little bit. Yeah, sure. Well, so, so I think it is helpful. Mm-hmm. Like it helpful for parents to see that they're moving through a process here. John Craichy: Everybody goes from that unconscious place to, to some kind of responsibility, some kind of self-consciousness to, to some more social consciousness and their place in identity among people. And, and then whatever's beyond that, some kind of higher purpose, right? Mm-hmm. But like, you can think of that bio psychosocial, spiritual is a stairstep. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Like, and, and like, you don't, well, bio would be your body and your brain, but the psycho would be like, uh, your mind. [00:15:00] And the social is obvious. You know, your, your, your, your, your family and your peers and mm-hmm extends beyond that. And then spiritual, I think of, I try to define spiritual as something like your existential narrative. John Craichy: Right. Like what you really believe about the way the world works and your role in it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And if, and if you really want to pursue that one further. I like to think of it, at least in my work, I like to think of it as what's your relationship with suffering and what's your relationship with beauty? John Craichy: Hmm. And I think a big part of AA is teaching people, um, how to have a more healthy relationship with suffering. Yeah. Both previous suffering and Absolutely. And the day to. Yeah. That you encounter. That's interesting. So, so, so I think that people are moving through that, but you don't leave the body right. John Craichy: And, and go to the mind. Well, well, I guess another way to say it would be dependence, independence, [00:16:00] interdependence, and transcendence. Mm-hmm. So like dependence would be that somebody else is responsible for meeting my needs. Mm-hmm. Independence would be, okay, I'll meet my own needs and I'll meet some of your needs in order to get my needs met. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Like, uh, an employee, that's what you expect from an employee, right? There's the contract, I'll do my part and I'll get something for it. Mm-hmm. And then if you think about interdependence, that you sort of let go of that contract. It's not tit for tat in your friendships. It's like, well, you can. You can come get something outta my refrigerator and like, you know, bring something at some point too. John Craichy: You know, it's like, like I can freely meet some needs of other people and I can trust that my needs will get met. But it's not like everything's a tit for tat mm-hmm. Thing. And then, um, and then I think in the higher level that's, um, I can sacrifice my. And that's the one where like, you know that if you're, you're a parent. John Craichy: Yeah. Like you, you, you know that you [00:17:00] sacrifice for your kids in ways they don't even see, may not even want Right. May tell you you're wrong for doing it, but you still do it cuz it's the right thing. Like that's a sacrifice. Yeah. That's sacrificing your need. But it's not, it's not co-dependent. That's a conscious choice to make an investment in somebody else. John Craichy: Yep. Mm. Graham Doerge: Yep. But at some point that becomes debil debilitating for, for, you know, the young adult, you know, person who's struggling with these substances or something like that. Right, right. So at some point we need to kind of change that narrative, John Craichy: uh, Justin Mclendon: right. Yeah. And so, and that's, uh, same line of thinking, like, so how, in your opinion, how do you think sometimes the, the parent plays a role in maybe keeping. Justin Mclendon: Uh, a young adult in that dependent position. What do you think about that? Yeah. John Craichy: Um, well, so one of the beautiful and difficult things mm-hmm. Is to help, particularly moms, you know, dad's too, [00:18:00] but like mom is the one who's usually sacrificing her body for the baby, right? Mm-hmm. And there is that, you know, I said before I think that a mother's love for an infant is that thing we think of as sacred mother's milk is actually. John Craichy: You know, an analogy for like mm-hmm. That, yeah. Right. In, in other places. Um, and so moms in particular have to do major shifts from, you're always right, you're never wrong. It's my job to sacrifice for you to, um, what is my role, where are the boundaries? Mm-hmm. And when do I need to let you? And, um, you know, I, I, as I'm saying that, like, of course it's the same for dads too and they're right alongside it. John Craichy: I think that, that women are more, um, I see women more emotionally affected by that choice. Mm-hmm. I think in our society, dads are taught, you know, Tough it [00:19:00] up, you know, no pain, no gain, you know, the sports analogies or the other things like that, that, that just show up as masculine challenge. Mm-hmm. You know, competitive nature. John Craichy: So there's that competition and that nurture, and usually those polarize a little bit between masculine and feminine. Sure. And so, so you get that place where, where you have a teenager, Who's really smart and they could go to a really good school, but they're not doing their homework. Right. Because they don't care because they're lost. John Craichy: Cuz they have girlfriend issues cuz they, whatever. It's like, well if you don't make 'em do it, they're gonna have big consequences. They're gonna miss out. Right. Right. But if you do it for 'em when they get there, they're not gonna be able to do it themselves. Right. That to me, Is a frequent setup. I think that's a modern problem. John Craichy: Yeah, sure. Graham Doerge: That's a modern problem. Well, I think also too, that it, it just, you know, They are relentless [00:20:00] too, in so many cases. Right. And sometimes it's just easier to give in. Right. You know, and that's a hard thing. Right. And it's just easier to appease, pacify, whatever you want to call it. And, uh, and, but obviously that's not our role as parents and, and holding that boundary and holding that line and helping them walk through the fear and helping them. Graham Doerge: You know, just grow and, and, and prosper is, is really our job. Right? And, and that's kind of not happening if we're just appeasing and, and enabling the situation. Mm-hmm. Always. So, but it's hard. It's hard, man. It, it is. And my kids are still young. Um, so we have Well, that's the time to do it too. You haven't really crossed that path yet. Graham Doerge: Right. But, um, you know, I'm in recovery. My wife's in recovery and, um, you know, chances are one of our kids probably will have some sort of issue, right. Hopefully not. But, you know, ch uh, cards are stacked against us, so, Yeah, I mean, just being very, um, being very open with them and having the, these conversations with 'em early on and setting those, those expectations pretty early on is important. Graham Doerge: [00:21:00] You know? John Craichy: Well, I see such a big opportunity in, in, in setting up that progression when they're young, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so probably one of the, one of the many mistakes I did as a parent is treating them like they. Little adults. Mm-hmm. You know, give 'em too much choice. Too much freedom, too much of what their opinion, um, ma matters or matters isn't really the right word for that. John Craichy: But, but like, you can be really tight with young kids mm-hmm. And then loosen up. Yeah. Right. But, but if you've been really loose, getting tighter later on, so you got a teenager who's used to a tremendous amount of freedom and you have parents saying, well, we want to implement boundaries now. It's like, I don't know. John Craichy: Like they're a wildflower, right? Right. They're a wild whatever. Um, what do you do with that? And one of the big things that I like to think about, I think a couple of the big skills, one of them is, um, you really want to think about. [00:22:00] Not lighting a fire under someone, but finding the fire. Mm-hmm. Right. So like feed the fire, invest in the thing where they have some initiative and that can be really hard, you know, if someone's playing video games all day long and they don't care about anything else other than that. John Craichy: Right. Yeah. Okay. That's a problem. So you need to maybe cut off some resources. Yeah. Right. Because there's some, um, but. Yeah, the big one, that's a big one. Find out what they're Graham Doerge: passionate about, right? And, and really just, just drive that home. And I think that, that makes me think a lot about too, you know, I've worked, uh, primarily really with a young adult population over the last kind of 10 years. Graham Doerge: And, um, you know, super passionate about working with, with that demographic, but, You know, what I've always found too is making that connection for these young adults in recovery. Uh, and, and you know, rather than them seeing, okay, my life is over because I can no longer use substances safely again for the rest of my life. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. Potentially. Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:23:00] hopefully. But you know, life is not over because you can't get high. Right? Life is just beginning. Look at all the amazing things you can do. Right? And, uh, and that's so important for us, particularly I think, young adults because it's like, oh, look at all these life, you know, situations that I'm never, I'm not gonna be able to have a glass of champagne at my wedding, right? Graham Doerge: Or this or that, or all these things that are just monumental and catastrophic situations that, that we aren't gonna be able to, uh, celebrate. And, uh, the reality is when those things actually come, They don't matter, you know? Not like, you don't even think twice about it, you know? And, and once you kind of get into the recovery, you understand that, that that was all just kind of a bunch of bullshit. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. You know? Yep. And, um, so, you know, I think that it's, uh, speaking to what you were just kind of speaking to of lighting that fire and the finding that passion with kids, I think it's so John Craichy: important. Yeah. And like, okay, so if you got someone who's already got a problem, then it's a problem. You know, um, you can't just feed the fire cuz their [00:24:00] fire passion is probably about using Right. John Craichy: That's, they do view the world through those lenses. Their friends are viewed through those lenses. Right. Their recreation, their, their whole identity. Their whole identity Absolutely. Yep. Is viewed through those lenses so you wind up, um, so it's hard. So I think that's a cutoff resources. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. John Craichy: I mean, if someone is resistant and in denial. Then the thing that's gonna make them change is a crisis. And you hope it's not a big crisis, but you're not in control of the crisis. You can, you can handle some things. Dennis Parnell used to talk about a controlled fall. Mm-hmm. Right? So like if somebody is in denial and resistant and they're not going along with your thing as well. John Craichy: First off, if you're the one supplying resources, don't invest in anything you don't agree with. Right. If they're resistant and they say, well, we, I can do this on my own, then you kind of set them up or to, to make their attempts. And [00:25:00] if those attempts don't work, you're ready to catch 'em. Yep. And that's, I think what he meant by controlled fall. John Craichy: Yeah. It's like, okay, I can't control you. Right. And there's gonna be a fall. Um, one of the things that I talk about with parents is that they can be really frightening and difficult is that insight doesn't usually change. Like if you're waiting around for them to finally go, I'm tired of this and I want to change, that's probably not the way it's gonna happen. John Craichy: Right. It's probably gonna be something happens that that forces their hand to change. Yep. And I mean usually it, something cuts off their resources. Right? Right. So, so a lot of times older people, they might not change for a. They might change for kids. Yeah. Right. Um, but they're really gonna change if they lose their job. John Craichy: Right. Because then their, their, their, their finances get cut off. Right. And then, you know, in more tragic circumstances, somebody gets a dui. Mm-hmm. Or somebody has gotta go to jail. [00:26:00] Jail stops people, there's, there's jail. That saved a lot of, well, you guys wouldn't know that there's jail that saved lots of people. John Craichy: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Hundred percent. Um, well it's really hard because cuz when someone's addicted they use their weakness as the leverage point. Mm-hmm. That's their power. Like, oh, you have to, I mean, that's that dependence again. Yeah. I'm not Okay. Mm-hmm. And you need to do something about it and Oh my gosh. John Craichy: If that person has struggled with anxiety or depression Yeah. Or eating disorder or, or some other kind. Struggle like that, where you know they're having a harder time than their peers. It's like, well of course you're gonna help them. Of course you want to. And, um, you know, that old thing from recovery, don't, don't do anything for someone that they can do for themselves. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Or if you do, you're gonna disempower right them. Absolutely. It, it's hard because if someone has a dependency that they're not able to let go of, to move through. You gotta treat 'em differently than you would because like [00:27:00] most of parenting is about love and hope and optimism. And here we're gonna give you this chance, this momentum or whatever. John Craichy: Yeah. But if, but if someone is, um, if someone is in that dependent place, they're going to eat up all the resources, all the hope that you put at them is supply. It's a stash. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You know? And I feel like we see that a lot too. Like you were talking. Limiting or cutting off those resources as a method of kind of helping that person, you know, grow or make the right decision. Justin Mclendon: And I think, you know, going back to that, like we see that a lot, right? I mean, whether it's a young adult, I mean, sometimes it's, it's an adult, right? And it's a, it's a, you know, a, a intimate relationship that we're dealing with and the spouse is trying to get the other spouse to make the right decision to enter treatment. Justin Mclendon: All kinds of different shapes and sizes, right? But we see a lot of that, uh, The person is considering treatment, or maybe they've even come in to us to detox and now we're talking about that next level of care. And you see a [00:28:00] lot of times, uh, where we're train, we're saying, Hey, given this current situation with this, we're saying you need to do X, Y, and Z. Justin Mclendon: And then the spouse or the parent, or whoever it is, Yes, I agree. I agree. They need to do this, they need to make these changes. They need to go into this level of treatment, but I'm not going to push them. It needs to be their decision. Right. Graham Doerge: And I think that's, that's kind of an old adage, right? When it comes to recovery, is like, you gotta, they've gotta be willing, they gotta do it themselves, which, you know, I, I definitely, we, we see it all the time where people have a, a psychic shift while they're in treatment. Graham Doerge: Absolutely. And I even. You know, I'm a case of that where I went in and, you know, was intervened on by family and was kind of motivated by family to do it. I was willing to do it, but still, I, I didn't, I was, didn't have my whole heart in it. Yeah. Until probably about two or three weeks into treatment. Graham Doerge: Right. Something changed where I said, wow, all I've done is run my life into the ground. Maybe I should listen to some other people who actually [00:29:00] know what the hell they're talking about. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. And I got outta my own. I surrendered and I just put my hands up and said, I'll do whatever you guys tell me to do. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Right. And that's what makes the difference, you know? John Craichy: So, so that's, that's interesting what you just said because I, I think what you were saying is that the, the light went on for you or things shifted for you. Wow. You were in treatment a hundred percent. So like, yeah, like, I don't know. You get moments of willingness, right? John Craichy: From people Yes. Where they're soft. Right. And I say to anybody, you listen, don't if, if somebody says they're willing to go, Be prepared for them to say that. And when they say, go, go. Don't, don't, don't, don't. You don't need a bath. Yes. You don't need to change your clothes. You don't need a toothbrush. You don't need to see girl, girlfriend. John Craichy: You need to go. You definitely don't need to see the girlfriend first. Right. Because any one of those things gives an opportunity for someone to settle back out. Absolutely. Because it takes willingness, but like, I mean, the whole nature of addiction, I is that you can't say [00:30:00] no. Exactly. You don't want to stop if, like, if you're truly addicted. John Craichy: Not from any pejorative sense, but just like that's what addiction means, right? Is that, is that, is that you don't want to stop. You don't know how to stop you. You can't imagine what it would be like to live life without that support. Absolut Absolutely. Like, well, okay. All you gotta do is be willing and then what you enter an environment where other people are facing that. John Craichy: I mean, for some people you have to hit the crisis, right? Sure. It it, and, and when I say crisis, I mean life disruption. Mm-hmm. It doesn't have to be a complete tragedy. Unfortunately, that's the scary part, right? Yeah. You don't get to control how that unfolds. And so I'm for doing all the invitation you can, all the setup. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. All the recovery tools, all the, um, recovery capital that you can muster in a situation and. It's gonna be somebody else's choice. Yeah. And that's the painful part, [00:31:00] right. Especially when it's your kid. Mm-hmm. Right. Because the, if they hurt themselves, they're gonna hurt you. Mm-hmm. You're gonna hurt in ways that, you know, you can't. John Craichy: Yeah. You know, that you, well, whatever. I don't want to use hyperbole on that, but like, you know, most parents have that, uh, thing that comes up when you think about your kid hurting. And yet, if they don't suffer, if they don't. I mean, if you don't have the pain, you don't wake up. Yeah. That's just, I think that's the nature of consciousness Graham Doerge: without pain, right? Graham Doerge: Yeah. Um, it's a great motivator, you know, and I think that it is, um, Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, it's interesting too when you think back and, and I think back on my kind of story and journey and all of that and, um, yes, a lot of pain, a lot of, uh, very difficult times, you know, in my mid twenties, but I wouldn't change a thing, you know, and, and that, that brought me to where I am now, right? Graham Doerge: And that experience has made everything of me and it's given me a [00:32:00] career and, and all of those things where I didn't have a whole lot of direction prior to that. So, Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's really important to kind of look at, look at that motivator and you know, and it's like shifting your perspective on like, what, what is, you know, what is that pain? Graham Doerge: What is that fear? It's not really that big, that bad of a thing if it's creating a lot of beauty in the long run. Right? Absolutely. Um, so I'm so afraid of uncomfortability. Yeah. You know. Justin Mclendon: Well, and I think that goes back to what we were talking about begin with, and, uh, this is, you know, my expression of that, but you know, Parents, and I'm guilty of the same thing with my own two boys, right? Justin Mclendon: But you have this tendency to want to protect them from the pain. And then, you know, we're doing that because we love 'em and we want to keep 'em safe and all that stuff. But at the same time, to your point, like we're, we're also, uh, you know, uh, robbing them of opportunities for growth, I think. You know what I mean? Justin Mclendon: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's the same thing when we're talking about, you know, these decisions, right? You know, [00:33:00] recovery versus continuing with, with, uh, substance use or whatever the behavior is, is it's the same thing without setting those boundaries, without, you know, cutting off or, or limiting the resources, right? Justin Mclendon: We're really doing the same thing. We're just kind of, You know, uh, trying to protect them from the pain, so to speak. Right? John Craichy: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so sitting here talking about it as an abstract thing Yeah. It's like philosophical, right? The pain thing, right? Yeah. But like, everybody's pain is like a hundred percent your pain, your, your triggers, your things. John Craichy: They don't scare me, right? Like, I could sit here all day and talk about whatever deep things you've been through, right? And I'm good with that. Mm-hmm. But, Scare me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And it's the nature of it. And that's what especially is with parents. It's like, well, how do you move through that? And I think that like a first stage is, is people have to feel comfortable at first, right? John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Because they, they just do, if, if you're not comfortable, then somebody's not paying [00:34:00] attention, right? You, you're like, that's your first sign. But like the more you sit with it, comfort's not the answer. In fact, that's actually might. Addiction might be defined as addiction to comfort. Mm-hmm. Sure. John Craichy: Right. Like, and so the, one of the first stages is separating comfort and safety. Mm-hmm. Because like you, you just assume if you're uncomfortable, it's unsafe, but that's not true. Right. In fact, it's a, it is an uncomfortable decision to choose recovery to go into, to surrender your control. Mm-hmm. Very uncomfortable. John Craichy: Absolutely. But, Like this place is safe, right? Mm-hmm. Right. It may be one of the most safe things for someone who has a, a substance dependency to be mm-hmm. Uncomfortable. Sure. Safe. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And then I think, I think over time, like particularly like with the steps, I think people learn that safety, is it judgment, right? John Craichy: Comfort's kind of a feeling, and safety is a judgment, and you can be. [00:35:00] Wherever you are. Right? Yeah. And there's plenty of people who are really safe in dangerous circumstances. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Absolutely. I love the way you put it. Yeah. And I think that's why it's, you know, there's this huge spiritual component, right? Graham Doerge: Yeah. And, um, you know, because for me, in that situation, like that was not me making that decision, right? Like I, I was. Touched by, you know, we'll call it the hand of God or whatever it was that, like, that I truly believe there was something that helped me kind of have that shift in perspective, right? Graham Doerge: Because it came outta nowhere. It was not me. So I think that that's like an important thing to, to look at too, is the, the spiritual part of this whole process and this and this and this journey. And. You know, really, you know, again, that's, that's like, you know, the tools that we learn in this process, and I even think about our, our, our young children and, and things like that too, is that we need to be teaching them a lot of these tools that we now have as a result of being in recovery, like meditation, journaling. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. [00:36:00] Yoga, breath work, you know, a lot of the somatic work that we do, you know, that's all. That kids should be doing in the schools, right? Yeah. And like, we need to be, we need to be teaching them these life skills early on. Um, and unfortunately it's just not, it's not talked about, it's not championed at all. John Craichy: All right. You know, so, so I get kinda excited to think about that because I have another angle on that. Okay. Um, coping skills are gonna be a part of any good program, right? Mm-hmm. But one of the things I saw, like at Triangle Springs, mm. I found that until you recognize somewhat what someone's pain is, what they're really struggling with, they usually don't want a coping skill. John Craichy: Mm. Because it's like, oh, you can teach me to breathe. Is that gonna change my whatever? It's like, no. Like a lot of times symptoms are the cry for help. Mm-hmm. Suicide ideation is chief among them. And that's, that's such a touchy subject. You have to take it seriously as if it's an [00:37:00] intent when you hear it and you gotta explore that. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. But when you do that, that's what I saw in the emergency room all the time. It's that cry for help. Yeah. Well, It's not a good measure if somebody does less suicide ideation. Right, right. The good measure is that there's some shift in their life where they don't need that. It could be that. Mm-hmm. John Craichy: But, but if you're just telling someone, it's basically someone's yelling for help and you're telling 'em to quiet down. Mm-hmm. Well, here, if you just breathe them more little, little, you won't, you, you won't, you won't be so loud. Right. And they. What's really going on is they're acting out cuz they can't. John Craichy: Well the earlier thing I said, if that happens again, I'm gonna lose my crap. Mm-hmm. What they're doing is they're losing their crap to show you that it's not working. They need something different. Right. And okay. Sometimes an incremental help helps someone get back in line and gain some confidence. And I think that's a difference between somebody who, who has a real use disorder, somebody who's an addict, and I say that [00:38:00] affectionately. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Not in a pejorative, but like people who have serious dependency problems. They're, well, I think of myself as a personality. I, I don't know why I didn't wind up being an alcoholic because, I'm an intense person. I don't think the rules apply to me. If a little is good, more is better. Like, oh my God, doesn't that sound, does that sound familiar to you guys? John Craichy: If you have any, any, any clients that sound like that? Yeah. Um, and like that gets you in trouble. Right? Right. That kind of, and if I was genetically predisposed, I'd probably be an alcoholic cuz I gave it a good run when I was, you know, a young man. Mm-hmm. And you know, I say that kind of tongue in cheek, but it's like I. John Craichy: That people who encounter that, who have that problem need to be respected as being different. Mm-hmm. There's something different going on for them that they need help managing. Right. And [00:39:00] and it's not like you can just use love and logic to help someone who's stuck in addiction. Yeah. They need some, they need. John Craichy: Something that helps change the framework that they're dealing with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. Graham Doerge: 100%. Yeah. No, and I, and I, I definitely, I see what you're saying a hundred percent from that perspective, but I also think that, For me in particular, it was, I was able to have that spiritual experience as a result of doing some of those things. Graham Doerge: Right. Yeah. And that was, that was really interesting because, you know, for me it was, I was losing my mind and I literally thought I was losing my mind. I was. Angry. I was frustrated. And, and listen, my coping skills had been taken away, so I hadn't done Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, and everybody said, why don't you try journaling? Graham Doerge: Why don't you try meditation? Why don't you, and then, and it took me about two weeks until I was so crazy that I said, okay, this is the only thing that I know how to do. And I said, I'll do it. And I started journaling and I would go every night to this little chapel and I would just [00:40:00] write, just, you know, just like, um, you know, um, you know, whatever came to my mind and. Graham Doerge: We can edit that piece. So I would just write, and I would go to this jour, this little chapel, and I would just write, write, write. And I realized after going back, after about a week and reading it, that I was writing my higher power, right? And that was the first time that I said, oh wait, it can be that easy. Graham Doerge: Like I can just, it's a relationship like I would have with any other person. You know? I talk to them in that way and. This is the closest relationship that I'll ever have. And that like, made that connection happen for me and I, and from there it kind of went, it went from there, right. But I was able to have that kind of spiritual note in that moment, you know? Graham Doerge: Yeah. John Craichy: That's cool. Which is cool. So, so I'm a little bombastic sometimes in the way that I talk cuz I'm intense. No, I love it. Listen, um, per Graham Doerge: personalities are great on podcasts. John Craichy: Um, but, but what you said. Clear to me. I should make it clear. Yeah. [00:41:00] That. I didn't mean that those coping skills and those activities aren't wrong. John Craichy: Like the steps are individual steps. Like, oh my God, there's life in that. Um, um, one of my mentors talked about that as good orderly direction. Mm-hmm. And, and so I'm a big believer in that. I'm just saying early on. Yeah. In the, and that was kind of the way we framed some of the earlier discussion is like, like how do you move someone from Yeah. John Craichy: From being in trouble to. Yeah. Re, re re recovery and, and I think a lot of times people would like to give someone incremental help. Mm-hmm. And then someone in real trouble, someone who's addicted, um, will often reject incremental help. As, as like, you don't get it. You don't see me. Right. Do you have any idea what I'm dealing with? John Craichy: And then the loving parents like, well, if you just do this, things will be a little better. And they're going, No, I don't want things to be a little better. I [00:42:00] don't, that's a little better. Still sucks. Yeah. Right. For me. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's, you tell the pain gets great enough. Yeah, yeah. Like in my situation, we don't make the change. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Right. Uh, it's, it's really, it's. Super complex. It's, uh, can be frustrating. Yeah, absolutely. I know for, for you Justin, as a clinician where Yeah, you know, we see a, a lot, you know, where we're doing so much work to get these folks to, you know, go to residential treatment because we know that's gonna be the best next step for this client and the family just isn't willing to hold the line. Graham Doerge: As Justin was saying earlier, they really wanted to be their decision and ultimately, They don't move forward with our suggestion. They go to outpatient and blow the, the household up, blow the family situation up. And we get a call three to four weeks later saying either we need to come back in because he is been using ever since he left, or, um, and you guys were right, or, you know, we need to kind of, you guys need to help us get him into the, to the residential program we were talking about. Graham Doerge: So it's, Justin Mclendon: it's frustrating. It really is. And uh, you know, and I think, you know, just to throw this nugget in there, and I'm sure you can [00:43:00] really, we can all relate to this, right? But. You know, that's where we have to be mindful of our, of our role in this situation sometimes, and then it, it can, it can be very frustrating, right? Justin Mclendon: I mean, you're working with them, you're given a hundred percent of your energy, you're working with the family, trying to get them to kind of see things for what it is so that we can get things moved in the right direction, in the right direction. Uh, but sometimes we just don't win those battles, right? Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes we just gotta. If there was any change affected whatsoever, we just have to take that for what it is and then be hopeful that, you know, either we're proven dramatically wrong or that we'll be there waiting to help when the, when the situation arises again, you know? Yeah. To me John Craichy: that's key. John Craichy: Yeah. Right. I want the kind of relationship with someone where their boundaries are respected. Yep. And that I really do see them mm-hmm. As a person, regardless of their use, so that when they decide to do something, I'm a person that they would trust to come back to. Mm-hmm. And so I, I'm all about [00:44:00] preserving people's choice, cuz I think Yeah, that's, I mean, what else do you have? John Craichy: Right? What else? Yeah, absolutely. And you can't make. Go into, you can't recover. Hey, sometimes I wish we could. Mm-hmm. You know, that's like, uh, yeah. The power. No, no. Good man should have no good man. No good man would want and no bad man should have. That's right. Yeah. That's right. The, when I was in the emergency room, I would see people in passing. John Craichy: Right. So they're in crisis often. Yeah. Right. And that's an opportunity for change. But I don't have much rapport cuz they're just passing through. I'm doing an assessment and most likely sending 'em on somewhere. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But I would usually. If, if, if they were at a low point where they were really trying to decide they're soft Yeah. John Craichy: In that time. And it's a time to reach someone. Right. That's the controlled fault. Right. They've reached some moment mm-hmm. Of crisis and there's an opportunity. And I would usually say something like, um, there's a proverb that says if you come whistling and singing [00:45:00] loud blessings too early in the morning, it'll be counted as a curse. John Craichy: Hmm. And that's a peculiar thing, right? Right. So what does that mean to me? That means if I look at you person in the emergency room and I say, oh, I see you're in crisis. I see all that pain, but that's gonna be a gift to you. Mm-hmm. Then I'm whistling and singing loud blessings too early. Right. And your response is gonna be something like, you know, F you, you don't see me, you don't know me, you don't get me. John Craichy: Right? Yep. But, but I would usually say that and ask, can I have your permission to like risk whistling and singing loud blessings too. Because I think a lot of times people who really hurt are, are also people who have a lot of insight on hurting. Mm-hmm. They have friends that hurt. They've thought about their pain, they've thought about their parents' pain. John Craichy: They've, they've really spent a lot of time swimming in that kind of environment. Yeah. And. The blessing on the other side of [00:46:00] that is that a lot of times you wind up being a huge gift to other people in pain mm-hmm. When you find recovery. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people will seek recovery if they have some vision of some kind of life worth living. John Craichy: Yeah. And a lot of times that the, that, that vision is. Is the idea that you could really help somebody else. Mm-hmm. You, you, you could save someone from going through the crap that you had to go through. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I mean, honestly, that's why I'm. Why I'm a therapist today. Yeah, Graham Doerge: a hundred percent. Graham Doerge: And I, yeah, man, a hundred percent relate to that. What a beautiful way to make a career, helping others. Um, and, and again, turn, seeing that light turned back on in their eyes, there's really nothing better than that. Yeah. That's it. That's why we do it. Right? That's why we do it. So, so let's, let's do this. So John, uh, thanks again for being here today. Graham Doerge: How can professionals, families, and individuals best connect with you? John Craichy: Um, John Croci, Jay Croci gmail. It's uh, [00:47:00] c r a i c h y. Great. Jay Croci at gmail is a good, good, good way to reach me. Perfect. You guys, so can send em to me. Absolutely. We'll, Graham Doerge: absolutely. We'll have your information listed on, uh, on the podcast, uh, site and, and all that, so we can make sure that people, uh, certainly find you if they, if they need John Craichy: services. John Craichy: Yeah, I see people in person, um, downtown Raleigh, in North end of downtown Raleigh. Justin Mclendon: So quick, quick question for you related to that. Uh, so I know you work with young adults. Mm-hmm. You mentioned you like working with parents. Would you take on. Like a couple or, or a parent as a client. John Craichy: Oh yeah. Okay, perfect. John Craichy: So, so I think, you know, when somebody asks what you do and what your specialty mm-hmm. Is, it's addiction and trauma and failure to launch with young people. Okay. But through that work, Uh, chaotic family situations. Mm-hmm. Um, because I worked in an emergency room, I worked with physicians in recovery. Okay. John Craichy: So I do a lot of adult work, executive women. Oddly, you know, my mom was the mayor of the little town. I'm from [00:48:00] Desiree was saying that I, I, I really like helping. Strong people wrestle with strong challenges, so that's awesome. I don't do the average couple's work like mm-hmm. Like, you know, date nights and communication styles. John Craichy: Those things are important. That's not my specialty. Sure. But if someone is having, you know, chaotic kindness of trouble in their marriage and they need some healing, some trauma kinds of things, whether it's addiction or trauma. Mm-hmm. I like doing that work and so I wind up doing, Parent work and couples work, family work, that kind of thing. John Craichy: Fantastic. It's a addiction is a family disease. Amen. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Do you have room on your caseload? John Craichy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, um, I try to help people and move 'em along. Sure. Like, I don't, I don't just hang on. Uh, I'm outta network and that's a barrier for some people. Sure. And, um, so in some situations I'll, you know, do something about that if it's a situation where I think I've got something unique to offer. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, I stay [00:49:00] fairly busy. You know, periodically have, have space. Yep. Very good. So send 'em my way. Graham Doerge: We will absolutely look forward to it. Well, thanks so much for being here today. Uh, thank you Justin for joining me and yeah, happy to be here. We will see you all next week.

Dive into the depths of addiction, recovery, and family support in this insightful episode of Finding New Waters, featuring John Craichy, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, and change management. Hosted by Graham Doerge, founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, and joined by executive director Justin McClendon, this conversation explores the complex nature of addiction and the challenges faced by families supporting loved ones on their recovery journey. John shares his personal experience with parenting and how it led him to his current profession, along with his passion for working with teens, young adults, and their families to overcome trauma, addiction, and dependencies. Discover the importance of understanding and respecting pain, as well as the crucial role of parents in setting boundaries and providing the correct influence for their children. In this episode, you'll learn about John's work with Journeyman Triangle, a teen mentoring and leadership development organization, his background in neuroscience, human development, and various modalities for trauma recovery, including EMDR. You'll also hear about the challenges and rewards of working in the behavioral health field and the impact of helping people transform their lives. Don't miss this informative and transformative conversation – perfect for anyone looking to better understand addiction, recovery, and the power of family support. John Craichy email: jaycraichy@gmail.com