#015 Kelli Underwood

Kelli Underwood: [00:00:00] I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying to expand my toolbox. I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what one client.

Kelli Underwood: We will be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what? The three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe.[00:01:00]

Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge and I am the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health.

Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Kelly Underwood. In 2013, Kelly moved to Durham, North Carolina and launched her own business to be aligned.

Graham Doerge: Today she has a thriving psychotherapy practice and continues to train and consult with school districts, counselors, agents, agencies, and companies. Kelly has been training therapists in transformative insight imagery, T I I, since 2000, and is the sole owner, owner of transformative insight imagery in all facets of her business.

Graham Doerge: Kelly embraces diversity and is a passionate ally to all who [00:02:00] experience discrimination and prejudice. Thank you very much for being with us today, Kelly, it's a, a pleasure to have you here. Thank

Kelli Underwood: you so much for having me. I am just thrilled to be with both of you. Absolutely.

Graham Doerge: Absolutely. So I love starting, uh, these podcasts off, obviously, uh, getting our audience to know our guests a little bit better.

Graham Doerge: Yep. And I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into this work and, and just how, what drove you to enter the behavioral health field.

Kelli Underwood: Sure. Would love to tell you that story. Um, well, ever since I was a kid, I was sort of the friend that everybody would come to. Mm-hmm. To talk about whatever was stressing them.

Kelli Underwood: And so I got a lot of feedback growing up that I was a good listener, that I should work with people, that I should be in a helping profession. So that sort of always had me thinking I would do something with people in a helping profession. Right, right. Then when I was a senior, I was really struggling as a senior in high school and I ended up advocating for myself with my family.

Kelli Underwood: To [00:03:00] go and see my own mental health counselor Wow. To help me. And that was a life-changing experience. To have a counselor, really, for the first time in my life, I felt really listened to, validated, seen her without judgment accepted for what I was going through and how I felt, even though I was just a teenager.

Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. And the, the presence of a supportive and safe person. I was, I remember sitting in a session early on with this therapist and saying, I'm gonna do what you do. Yeah. For a living, right? This is, this is what I wanna do. Right? And then the third thing that really just made it clear what kind of degree I would get and where I would go next was in undergraduate school I signed up for an intro to social work class.

Kelli Underwood: Mm. And I still remember the first day in the class. Great teacher and I just, they were talking about the values and the ethics and the knowledge and all the different [00:04:00] things that social workers can do, and I was like, this is me, right? This is it. Yeah. This is, this is my life path. Yeah. Yeah. So that was how it

Graham Doerge: unfolded.

Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's, it's always amazing to me how people get into this work. And obviously, you know, a lot of us have had our own struggles and, and difficulties and come out the other side and then, you know, made it our career and our life. And that was kind of my story. Um, and, you know, but I, I do think that, you know, I, I, similar to you in a lot of ways, there was, you know, certain guys along the way in my journey that I just saw and, and you know, that were, um, walking the walk, right?

Graham Doerge: Yes. And I was like, man, if I can, you know, Be like those guys. I mean, what an amazing way to make a career, you know, helping people, saving lives and all that. So, I mean, it's, it really is incredible work. Um, and, and so, um, just so humble to be able to do it.

Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. I am right there with you on that. I feel like I tell people all the time, this is sacred work.

Kelli Underwood: It's sacred. We are on the [00:05:00] front lines trying to really impact people in a positive way. Mm. And. Yeah. It's really meaningful and purposeful work. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To witness somebody's journey, to be beside them in their roughest times and watch them rise out of it is just such an honor to me. Yeah. Like truly.

Kelli Underwood: Yep,

Dr. Harold Hong: a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So in, in your work, it began with having this really positive experience with a therapist? Yeah, and uh, what I have run into, like, I do therapy as well, um, and I do a lot of medication management and, and I have a lot of clients that are there for meds, but they have a therapist and they're not really sure if it's a good therapist.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Um, they, they go every week, it's fine. Um, but they've been going every week for a year or three years or 10 years and. They're not really sure if this is what they need. They just know that it's helpful and they go, yeah. But I think a lot of [00:06:00] people would be interested to know what is a good therapeutic relationship or what does good therapy look like?

Dr. Harold Hong: And you know, I think everyone has a different answer to that question and different answers resonate with different people. So I'm, I'm always interested to hear from our guests, uh, to the benefit of our audience. In your experience, what is a good therapeutic relationship look like?

Kelli Underwood: Yes, I, I'm really happy you asked this question and it's really interesting timing because I spent the day yesterday online training folks with the topic of how to be more effective in psychotherapy.

Kelli Underwood: And the two major points I invited people to focus on as therapists is one, we know from the research that what clients remember about our sessions. Long term is how they felt in our presence. Hmm. How they felt in our presence. Hmm. We know that rapport and empathy and the [00:07:00] connection are the key, and if somebody is not feeling connected with me, I'm a big believer they should as a customer.

Kelli Underwood: Seeking mental health services, they should be able to have the experience of a therapist, that they really have enough connection to, enough safety, enough trust, mm-hmm. And enough rapport that they then can become willing to be vulnerable enough. To do the work. Right. So I think the rapport and the ability to be a real person with professional boundaries, to be genuine, to really practice deep listening and being who you are in your own personality, but, but bringing a conversation.

Kelli Underwood: I'm a real person. I get a lot of feedback from folks I've supervised. Interns and staff, [00:08:00] um, that they've been told in other supervisions or trainings or even their education that they have to be really kind of constricted in this session. And I just don't think that's real. I, I work in the field of trauma and I have for 25 years, and people want to feel a real person in front of them, right?

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. A real person who really cares, who's not giving them a bunch of baloney, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that's the first piece. The second piece is, do you have tools, competencies, right. To help the person, right. With what they're coming to you for. Right. Right. And what clients have told me is, I appreciate that you really are beside me.

Kelli Underwood: You really care about me. You don't have to know everything, but I also appreciate that you give me tools, strategies, you [00:09:00] help me to think about things differently and try new things, and I am getting better. Mm-hmm. Because you're teaching me things I didn't know before. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of therapists miss the boat on the fact that they are a teacher.

Kelli Underwood: Yeah. Whether you're cognitive, behavioral solution focused, you know, internal family systems, art therapy, it doesn't matter what your technique is, find something that's aligned with you mm-hmm. That you're good at, and then have a menu of options for people. Right. And the other thing I said yesterday in this training is we need to be mindful as therapists that we're not asking people to come to our comfort zone.

Kelli Underwood: We need to be where the client is and join their comfort zone. Right. Right, right. Yeah. So I think all of those things are important in what you're saying.

Graham Doerge: And what kinda questions would, would you pose to families or, or, uh, tell them to ask, uh, a potential therapist, you know, when they're trying to find a good fit.

Graham Doerge: Right. And right. Is there [00:10:00] anything specific that you can

Kelli Underwood: lean on? I actually, often, when I can't take referrals, I will send people an email with some resources to do some research. And to feel more empowered and educated in what they are looking for and what is important to them without making assumptions about what that might be.

Kelli Underwood: But you know, being able to say some very specific things about, here are the things I want. As outcomes. Mm-hmm. Um, here are the kind, here's what I think I would do better with. So I ask clients upfront, like, if you've had a past therapy experience, what did you like and what didn't really work for you?

Kelli Underwood: Right. Mm-hmm. And then I'm honest about where I align with that and whether there's someone else who might be a better fit. Right. Right. Um, so I really think people should know. To, you know, they're not gonna know all the different techniques, but if, for example, they're reaching out to me for trauma, I'm gonna let them know we have all [00:11:00] these things now available.

Kelli Underwood: You might wanna research what is. Mdr. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. Mm-hmm. You might wanna also look at some of the somatic centered psychotherapies, and then I'll tell them a little bit about what that is. We have, I was trained in somatic experiencing. We have sensory motor, we have all kinds of other things evolving now, like A E D P and, you know, lots of attachment based.

Kelli Underwood: Therapies for parents with, with young kids. Mm-hmm. So I'll give them a list of, here's some things for you to maybe look into and see which ones of the, these sound like they might be helpful. Right. And then ask if the person is trained in any of these, ask what kinds of techniques they use and then go and look those up.

Kelli Underwood: And does that feel like a good fit for me? Yeah. Right. Ask how. What their philosophy is. Yeah. If they are an attachment based therapist, if they value the relationship or they're more of a short term concrete, you know, there's no right or wrong here, but it [00:12:00] has to be the right fit for the person. And the client doesn't always know what they need.

Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's okay too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I always tell clients, think of yourself as a customer. You have the right to choose a product that feels right

Graham Doerge: for you. Yeah, right. A hundred percent. Right. And I even think. We do that really well here too, as well. And I think any good program hopefully does, um, where, you know, we get super granular on, you know, our aftercare planning and, you know, we're oftentimes looking at, you know, yes, this is gonna be a good fit program wise.

Graham Doerge: But, you know, maybe more so who on the therapeutic team is gonna be a good fit with this specific client, right? Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Um, which is, you know, not always done. And, and listen, we can't do it a hundred percent of the time. Sure. Um, but we really, really do try to take that into account and, because I think that, you know, unfortunately a lot of the time we're kind of throwing darts at a dart board hoping that, you know, yes, this is a great program, but.

Graham Doerge: Maybe you get set up with, you know, or your primary therapist is, you know, maybe they're very [00:13:00] green or just not a good connection. Right. It's not a good fit for in some way. Um, and that can really give you a very different experience than if you, you know, had somebody that you had a good fit with. Right, right.

Graham Doerge: So I think it's so important, um, to look at those pieces. I love that you do

Kelli Underwood: that. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you that you all do that here at New Waters. Yeah, because it's just really essential. So the fact that you really break it down to who's the right fit on multiple levels, I think is really gonna help people have a better experience.

Kelli Underwood: And that's what we all want. That's what we're all in this for, is to help and

Graham Doerge: listen, help people listen, is this is not a cheap endeavor, right. For families. No. And you don't wanna have, have to do this thing multiple times. Right. That, that's right. And so if we can kind of get through this and, and, and that can be the difference between a good experience and a bad experience in might.

Graham Doerge: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Um,

Kelli Underwood: it's important. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I even go so far when I have a, a potential teenage client. Yeah. Of asking the parent to please give their teenager choice. Yeah. To [00:14:00] please tell the teenager that they get to do a mutual interview with me. Right. And they get to ask questions and they get to, you know, let them, let them interview at least two different therapists and have some say Yeah.

Kelli Underwood: In who they're gonna do this journey with. Right,

Dr. Harold Hong: right. I think that's a key part of the good therapeutic relationships is like without safety. Yes. You can't be vulnerable. And I think it's, it's out there in the, like with the work that Bene Brown has done. Yes. The word vulnerability so, so popular. It's almost become like a, like a virtue by itself.

Dr. Harold Hong: But I, I do a lot of work with clients and tell them, you know what, there's, there's a right way to be vulnerable and a wrong way to be vulnerable. Right. And vulnerability for vulnerability's sake is actually dangerous. Yes. And a big part of your recovery is learning how to be safe. Yes. Right? Yes. So, um, The, the essence of safety in therapy is, is consent, right?

Dr. Harold Hong: Like you have the right to pass. Yes. Um, here's what we're gonna do. Here's how we're gonna do it. Do you want to go [00:15:00] on this journey together for this work today? And I think if, if there's no treatment plan, that, that's to me is a big red flag. Uh, if they're not saying, here's what we'll do, here's how we'll do it.

Dr. Harold Hong: If someone can't put that into words or some type of representation for you, you're, you're really trusting. In, in one faith that this is gonna work out. Right. Um, and it doesn't have to be that way. I think it really should be like very, very transparent, like on the table for everyone to see. Um, so a big part, I'm a big advocate of is there treatment plan?

Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. And a big and big part of safety. I love this thing you're doing with the, the adolescents is they have the right to pass or they have the right to decide. Yes. That's huge. Um, but I, I'm also really interested in hearing about the tools part cuz I think that's, Tremendous. And a lot of us are still in this old school therapy where we're gonna do this Freudian.

Dr. Harold Hong: Mm mm-hmm. Just, just kind of sit back and be the blank slate and, [00:16:00] and you express yourself and suddenly you'll realize this epiphany about yourself. Yeah. Um, but it's, I, I can't say it's, it really happens and there's a reason why. A lot of psychodynamic people are in session three days a week for three to five years.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. Um, yes. Uh, but if, if people are getting the tools, I think that is so interesting cuz a lot of people don't even know that you can go and work with a therapist to get tools. Right. That will change your life. Right. Like, can you tell us about the tools that you've helped your clients with? Sure.

Kelli Underwood: Well, I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying. To expand my toolbox, I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what [00:17:00] one client.

Kelli Underwood: We'll be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what, the three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe. Right? Right. Um, so some of the tools that I lean into, well, the foundational one for me for. 20 some years has been transformative insight imagery.

Kelli Underwood: Um, and I also have, I think my practice has changed significantly as the neuroscience has really come out about how to bring the body and the nervous system mm-hmm. Into treatment. And so I definitely. Access Somatic Experiencing and Steven Porges Polyvagal Theory and Deb Dana. I really love a lot of her exercises about helping clients experience the different states of their being and helping them be able to more fluidly regulate and move through them.

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Um, and the T II actually [00:18:00] has a component of really helping folks with that. I think mindfulness is valuable, but I think a lot of times, um, Well-intentioned therapists. We sometimes misstep with mindfulness and with traumatized folks it can be triggering if we're asking them to get really go into themselves before they're resourced and right.

Kelli Underwood: Have enough resources and regulation. To go in with mindfulness. Mm. Um, because getting still, or getting quiet or meditating can also be really unsafe for some people. Mm. Mm-hmm. So, I think all of these things have to be catered to the person in front of you. I, I definitely value cognitive therapy. You know, working with who's narrating the story of the moment with clients, I have found very valuable.

Kelli Underwood: T i I also has a, a big piece when we go into the more deeper eight step process of. Parts work, and I think that parts work. I know a lot of people are getting trained in internal family systems, but this [00:19:00] idea that we all have many facets to our personality, many parts, and in the world of trauma, I find this is one of the more powerful interventions that I see sustainable change in is when people can, whether they use art or the imagery or even more psychodrama practices to really.

Kelli Underwood: Deeply access and connect like. That 10 year old self that went through that trauma and now they are taking care of those younger parts that did not get what they needed. I found that to be really powerful. Mm-hmm. Wow. Uh, so I do a lot of nervous system regulation kinds of things. I'm very experiential.

Kelli Underwood: Um, I find that, and I'm very relational and attachment. Lens focused in everything I do, but I'm always, you know, I'm always incorporating, like Dr. Dan Siegel and um, Bruce Perry, and there's just lots of people that I really value. Mm-hmm. Um, his new book with Oprah, you know [00:20:00] what happened, right. To you is excellent.

Kelli Underwood: Um, I was also trained by Steve Terrell and Kathy Kane in nervous system work. Um, they have a great book called Nurturing Resilience, so I use a lot of their techniques. So I really am fairly eclectic and I really have learned you have to pace the order of your interventions in the relationship. Mm-hmm.

Kelli Underwood: And in the context of where you are with that client and what they are ready for. Mm-hmm. Readiness is important. Yeah. Right.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. I'm super ex, I mean, you covered a ton of ground. Yes. And, uh, I, I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to, to go through this journey, like maybe kind of step by step.

Dr. Harold Hong: And so I, I, I think it's helpful to start with trauma because Yeah, just like, how do we think about it? We have, we have a lot of people. Who think, you know, trauma is something horrific. Yes. That happened to you. Yes. Right. But, but therein lies this, this big [00:21:00] issue because in the big world trauma, there are things that are truly horrific and there are things that are very subtle.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. And not obviously traumatic and. Yeah. For some reason they just show up in your office and they, they say, I, you know, something's just not right. Yeah. Right. And so, I dunno if, if we could start there Yes. And see like how you would, how you would open up the conversation with them about trauma and how you would layer in the nervous system integration work or the, the other tools you're using.

Kelli Underwood: Well, I'm a big believer that in trauma we always have some varying levels of feeling disconnected. I. Out of control and powerless. Mm-hmm. So I am really vigilant that I may, if I messed up, accidentally reenact some part of that with a client. So I am a huge, adamant proponent of collaboration choice.

Kelli Underwood: Yeah. And [00:22:00] making sure clients feel like they have a voice with me. Mm-hmm. Because that runs contrary to trauma. Yeah. Always. Mm-hmm. If you have a voice, you feel heard, I am here beside you, but you get to choose what's best for you. So I like to start even with the idea of trauma with. Do, what do they think has been traumatic in their life?

Kelli Underwood: Hmm. You know, we start where they are with their definition over time, with the psychoeducation and whatnot. They might start to go, oh, I think I had other traumatic experiences that I didn't previously identify as that. Hmm. So, I like the definition that, you know, one of my teachers, Peter Levi Levine uses, um, from somatic experiencing.

Kelli Underwood: He says, trauma is anything that overwhelms. Your resources for coping. Mm. Now the key there is we all have different resources for coping, right? With the same event, right? So that trauma is not actually defined by, defined by the event. So, Mm. Right. It's defined by the [00:23:00] effect. So I think that's the first eye-opening thing for a lot of folks.

Kelli Underwood: Wait, so I lived in a home where my parent was an alcoholic and they, they were sort of sometimes physically scary or violent. Um, so. But you may have multiple children in that home who were impacted very differently, right? Yep. Right. And that's because we all have different resiliency, different temperaments, personalities, resources, right?

Kelli Underwood: So I love that Peter explains that. You know what happens in trauma is that something overwhelms our resources for coping and then it gets stuck. Mm. Right. It gets stuck in our brain. Mm-hmm. But it also really gets stuck in our nervous system and our body. Mm-hmm. And we don't get it moved through the system.

Kelli Underwood: So that's where a lot of these body-centered techniques are helping people to move it. Into a new place. Mm-hmm. Sort of like a train that's [00:24:00] derailed and you're getting it back on the tracks and moving it down to the next station. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So, uh, you, you talked about feeling overwhelmed.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And then you also talked about feeling powerless, disconnected. Yes. And what's, what's the connection between those two points in time of two, how someone's

Kelli Underwood: doing the two, which two

Dr. Harold Hong: points. The moment of feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Or repeatedly feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Uh, beyond like stress beyond your capabilities, right.

Dr. Harold Hong: And then showing up as an adult feeling disconnected, disempowered, yes. Frustrated.

Kelli Underwood: Well, I mean, I think the truth is, and there are greater experts out there than me, but the truth is, These patterns get imprinted. Right? The overwhelmed. And so as a kid, you know, maybe you learned to just shut down and hide.

Kelli Underwood: Or maybe you learned to, um, you know, you had a very intense [00:25:00] freeze response. Dissociation became your friend. Yeah. To leave something that was difficult and we are all brilliant. In our systems of protection. Yep. And so the first thing I want clients to understand is this isn't bad. Right. This is actually fantastic and brilliant that you know how to dissociate that you know how to shut down and disappear.

Kelli Underwood: That you know how to go into fight response. Yeah. To protect all of your littles. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. This is great that you have these, we all have this internal alarm system that I, you know, our neuroception is constantly scanning. Mm. Am I safe right now? Is this dangerous? Is this life threatening or is this safe?

Kelli Underwood: Right? And because our history is with us, I might be sitting here feeling like, this feels pretty freaking scary to me right now, to be sitting here with you all, and you might be over here going, this is great. Yeah, I feel really relaxed.

Graham Doerge: Right. And, and everybody's response can be so [00:26:00] different. Right. And I think that that, like that obviously you talk about walking into a room, reading the room, that hyper awareness.

Graham Doerge: Yes. Right? Yes. And where, you know, that can actually be kind of a positive thing for some, like, you know, my ability to walk into a room and read a room like that Yes. You know, can be a real advantage in a lot of times. Yes. You

Kelli Underwood: know, all of these things are assets and sometimes. They harm us or our relationships.

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the way I explain it to my clients is what we wanna do in therapy is help you grow your awareness of when it's helpful and when it's overactive. Mm-hmm. So I use the analogy of when I moved into my home and I had my alarm system installed. Yeah. The first couple months were treacherous because apparently the gentleman who.

Kelli Underwood: Installed it, put it on too sensitive of a setting Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. And so when a bird would hit the window, unfortunately, or. There was construction behind the woods of [00:27:00] my house, and it was vibrating. The alarm was going off. Wow. And the cops were coming to my house. Wow. Uhhuh. Um, which made me feel good that they came.

Kelli Underwood: Right. But this was problematic. Mm-hmm. This is a perfect analogy for pe, post-traumatic stress disorder. Right, right. Our alarm is going off all the time. Yeah. But it's not really. Something happening now, right? Mm-hmm. But the system is set so that it's, it's on overload, right? Yeah. So in treatment, what we wanna do is help that person feel more in control, have more power, more connection to themself and others.

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. In. Oh, my, my nervous system can now distinguish. Um, for me personally, I did EMDR on a house fire that I survived. Wow. So what I remember experiencing doing that trauma treatment was it went from constantly, any time something smelled slightly burnt Mm, the iron was left on to, [00:28:00] to a candle, was blown out like four rooms away.

Kelli Underwood: I would go into panic. Like, oh no, something's on fire. Mm-hmm. And through treatment, what we can do is we really help move through, heal, reset the system so that over time I don't freak out. Now when I smell a candle, right. I don't freak out. When the iron's on my brain, my body and my nervous system can now distinguish that smell from the smell of something's burning on the stove.

Kelli Underwood: Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's what good trauma treatment can do for folks. Amazing.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah.

Graham Doerge: And how does t i I play into all that? And, and this is something that, that you have created. Sorry. Sorry,

Dr. Harold Hong: I'm just saying that light went

Graham Doerge: out. Got it. Keep going. Okay. So, t i, this is something that you have created.

Graham Doerge: No.

Kelli Underwood: Okay. No, I did not create it. I, I, my greatest mentor of my [00:29:00] life and teacher and friend and became like a family member to me. Dr. Charlotte Smith is the creator of transformative insight imagery. When she retired. Um, she. She had been teaching and training folks in this for 30 some years in the Chicago area.

Kelli Underwood: Okay. And she asked me to carry on her work and gifted me with, with all of her copyright and trademark material. Wow. Amazing. And so it has been my mission to get it out to as many therapists and. Clients and regular people because it was the first thing that changed my life and put me on my journey towards healing and wholeness.

Kelli Underwood: Uh, I went to all of her retreats three, four times. Wow. Became an assistant and then became my own teacher of the work. And then, uh, in Chicago I did trainings and now I'm really starting to try to get back on online teaching, uh, for therapists and [00:30:00] retreats in person and online for anybody who just wants.

Kelli Underwood: To do some self-healing. And so what I love about t i I is that it is so in alignment with my values and it's, that's why I think it remains foundational to all my techniques, which is to me, the greatest gift I can give a client mm-hmm. Is the ability for them to trust themself better. Mm-hmm. To trust their wisdom, their knowingness, and to know that they have what they need inside.

Kelli Underwood: Right. Because addiction, mental health, the American culture mm-hmm. All tell us that what we need is out here somewhere. Right. We just need to get that thing right, that medication, that, that thing that's gonna fix us. Mm-hmm. And what I have found is the most sustainable healing I have seen happen in folks is when they realize they have what they need Right Inside.

Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's what t I does. [00:31:00] So t i I, um, we, we start with resourcing folks and what's different than guided imagery per se, is that the imager, all the images are coming from them. I am not telling people what they image. Mm-hmm. So people are astonished. And surprised sometimes of what comes up in their own experience from their own history to support them, to provide wisdom or love or support.

Kelli Underwood: And so there's a greater ownership over those resources. Wow. Cuz they're mine. That's my place. That's my wise guide. Right. And then we really work with clients on practicing in life here and now accessing those resources to shift you. So there are aspects of. Polyvagal regulation Pendulation from somatic experience experiencing.

Kelli Underwood: So people will come in and tell me all the time, oh my gosh, I [00:32:00] got really triggered. And then I used my wise guide and I felt them beside me. Or I took four breaths of my centering place. And I did it differently. Mm-hmm. I broke the pattern. Wow. I was more available. My adult self came and took care of me.

Kelli Underwood: Wow. Right, right. And showed up there. We also have people meet their best self, their highest self, and then we, in t I I, you can become anything. Hmm. So you can experience a whole new perspective, whole new insight that you never had before. You can learn that, okay, I'm really struggling right now. I'm gonna merge with that wisdom of my wise guide or that higher, higher.

Kelli Underwood: Best self. Mm-hmm. And it's a game changer. Right? Wow. So we do this incredible resourcing and people own it. I find that people use it. They come back and they're telling me success stories. Mm-hmm. Which is why I love it. Yeah. Then when they're resourced and they're, they're a little stronger and they're ready to be a little more vulnerable and face those fears, we can go [00:33:00] into an eight step journey.

Kelli Underwood: And that journey, I teach therapists how to do this because it's unlearning, because for therapists, Your job as a t i I co-facilitator is to get out of the way. Mm. Your job is not to fix it or solve it or come up with some great idea. Your job is to trust that the imager, their system, their body, their psyche will take them and do whatever they need to do to have the healing today.

Kelli Underwood: Amazing. Mm-hmm. And to watch people do this. Changes their lives cuz they're like, I had no idea that's what I needed to do with that. I didn't know that my neck is tight all the time because I'm holding anger there. Mm. And now I have, I, I, I know what I need to do. To let that go or we go and free a lost self that got cut [00:34:00] off.

Kelli Underwood: So back to what you were saying about trauma can be really obvious or really subtle. I've had so many people over the years free a lost self that they didn't even realize they had cut off from. Mm-hmm. That was a subtle, it was invalidating, A relationship was invalidating. They didn't get, you know, maybe.

Kelli Underwood: They really needed affection as a kid. They really needed to be held, but they happened to have parents who weren't affectionate. Yeah, right. And so that for them was internalized as a child that I'm not loved. When in reality their parents love them, but they didn't receive it in the way they needed it.

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. That can be traumatic, right. For a child. Right. And it's not a fault, it's not a blame, it's a statement that that can really affect people. Right. And their relationships in the future and children will blame themselves. Right. Right. So we have people go and they discover this younger self in the imagery.

Kelli Underwood: And the imagery is five senses. [00:35:00] Plus it's so visceral. That people are amazed at how real their imagery experiences can be. Mm-hmm. And so it's very anchoring and they are in the driver's seat, and the co-facilitator is encouraging, reminding them of the resources they have, asking them things like, what needs to happen next?

Kelli Underwood: Right. What are you willing to do? Who or what of your resources is available to help you in this moment? Mm-hmm. And so for me, it's so aligned. With what I most deeply believe about healing is when the client truly owns what they're doing and their choice. So, That's life changing, right? Yeah. That's, that's the ripple effect.

Kelli Underwood: So I like to do things that have big impact. Yeah. I like to do things that are impactful. And so t i I has both the resourcing piece and the deeper healing transformation piece. And a couple other things that people have told me is [00:36:00] we've got mindfulness in there. People learn mindfulness, they learn regulation, and then they also learn in the eight step process parts, work body awareness.

Kelli Underwood: They start to get insight that they never had before about what they're holding and where it's being held. Mm-hmm. And they learn ways they can shift that at any moment. And that's what I also love. People learn any moment. It's all available. Right? I don't have to be in front of my therapist to do this.

Kelli Underwood: I have it when I'm at work. I have it when I'm at home with my partner. I have all these resources available.

Graham Doerge: And, and are some of these resources, like, you know, breath work? I hear you kind of talking about a bed and what, what are some of those, you know, particular resources?

Kelli Underwood: Well, can we do one? Yeah. Can we do one together?

Kelli Underwood: Love it. Can we do the first one? Let's do it. All right, let's do it. So this is not.

Graham Doerge: This is the fun part

Kelli Underwood: that we talked about. This is the fun part. This is like, let's experience it. So even my, my, my people who helped me with marketing have said, you know, t i I is [00:37:00] really tough for you to talk about because it's an experience and it is so different for every person.

Kelli Underwood: It's very hard to put to words. Yeah. So you have to understand that Dr. Charlotte Smith created this. In the 19 79, 19 80. So this was before a lot of the things that people tell me all the time, oh, it's sort of like this. Oh, it's sort of like that, right? Um, and so the first thing we do, other, other approaches have done as well, but I think it's how we do it in t i I that you might experience is a little different.

Kelli Underwood: Okay? So the first thing we do is we find a center and that becomes our home base, our anchor for every process that we do. Yeah. And it's a place. Mm-hmm. And the really cool thing I love about t i i is its infinite possibilities. Mm-hmm. I see therapists open up to their creative side, like they haven't in years because you never run out.

Kelli Underwood: Right? Like I've been doing t i i for my personal journey for 20 some years, and I have multiple centers, right? When [00:38:00] it's winter here, I go to the beach. Right? When it's summer, I go to the mountains, right. So I need different support. At different times depending on what's going on in my life. Right. And t i, I will reveal what you need.

Kelli Underwood: What you need. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You will get what you need. Yeah. So that's the beauty of it. And as a therapist, I don't have to know that. I have to give the imager permission to know that. Right. Love that. Yeah. So all we're gonna do is we're just gonna, you can either pick a place you wanna venture to, or you can see what comes to you.

Kelli Underwood: Right. You can keep your eyes open if that feels better for you, or you can close your eyes, whatever's gonna help you have a more full experience, right? Mm-hmm. And so what I like to say is imagine you're just pouring yourself to a peaceful, relaxing, replenishing place. It could be a place you've actually been to.

Kelli Underwood: It could be a vacation place, it could be your dream vacation place. [00:39:00] It could be a place from your younger years. It could be a place you have access to right now, and you go to all the time. Mm-hmm. Choose a place you really love to be at for calm, for restoration. A place where you can catch your breath and then let yourself be there.

Kelli Underwood: Let yourself be there.

Kelli Underwood: Notice, what's the temperature here in your place today?

Kelli Underwood: Notice how large or small your place is,

Kelli Underwood: even notice how light or dark it is.

Kelli Underwood: Take a moment to look around. What do you see or sense or feel here?[00:40:00]

Kelli Underwood: What are the sounds?

Kelli Underwood: Allow yourself to take a nice, deep inhale of the air and notice what the air is like in your place. I.

Kelli Underwood: Take another breath and see are there any smells here for me?

Kelli Underwood: See if there's something you wanna feel the texture of through touch.

Kelli Underwood: Maybe there's even something you wanna taste.

Kelli Underwood: Give yourself a moment to really enjoy your place [00:41:00] and all that it has for you here. Notice what starts to shift in your body with the support of this place. Maybe your breath has slowed, tensions releasing, and just let yourself have a few more moments. To enjoy all the here and noticing the shifts,

Kelli Underwood: give yourself permission to come back and really be present here. If something starts to take you away, it's okay. Just go, oh, I'm gonna come back to my place now. Take a few more breaths. Feel the support filling you up. And you, as you look around you, you may notice there's, there's sort of a gift here, a gift of support, some [00:42:00] additional support for when you come back and be open to whatever that might be.

Kelli Underwood: Can come in any form and then take a moment to set your intention. When would you like to come back here? When could it support you to drop back into your center and then be really honest with yourself? How will I remember to do this? Maybe I need to set an alarm or put it reminder in my phone, or just make sure I do it first thing in the morning or last thing at night.

Kelli Underwood: Beautiful. Beautiful. As you're ready, slowly bring your awareness back to the chair, to the room, and just. Really noticing the difference. You can feel it in the room for all of us that we're just like more here. Right? More here. So I call that that's, that's like really great doorway into mindfulness, [00:43:00] into we, so let's, mm-hmm.

Kelli Underwood: Let's just notice the diversity right here with the three of us, right? When I do this online, it's really astonishing. Now people put in the chat all the differences and where they went, right? Like, Did anybody have water where they went today? Not for me. I did nature. Any nature, any trees? Definitely Nature.

Kelli Underwood: Mountains? Yes. Mountains. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Me too. Me too. And what, what sense was the strongest and clearest for you? Which one did you appreciate the most for you?

Dr. Harold Hong: For me it was, I said this incredible moment where I took my son fishing. Ah. And it's the sound of him laughing. Oh,

Kelli Underwood: I love that. That's so great. I love, that's so good.

Kelli Underwood: Yeah.

Graham Doerge: I think for me it was smell, um, So I, I kind of, there's this tree at our house in Texas that is this like beautiful live oak that's just sprawling and kind of has this like little nook in it that we do a lot of meditation and just sitting in [00:44:00] kind of the, the base of this tree and it's, and it's just so like, comforting, but it had this like, smell of like honeysuckle and I just had, I could, you know, sense it.

Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kelli Underwood: So, It's really pretty amazing when we first start to open up Yeah. To what's inside us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And available. And so what I, I find so beautiful and precious is, okay, I, I have this. Mountain home that I love to go to, and I'm not physically there right now, but I was just there. Mm-hmm.

Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. Hundred percent. And I was seeing the sunset and smelling the mountain air and rocking in the rocking chair. And as far as my brain, my nervous system and my body are concerned, it happened, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hundred percent. So I got the same effect, even though it wasn't literal that I was there, right?

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And so for, for folks to open up to, Whatever it is that has supported you [00:45:00] is always available. Yeah. Yeah. At every moment is sort of mind blowing. Yeah. It's mind blowing. Right, right. Yeah, it's amazing. So, so that's sort of a starting place. Then what we would do is we would really go to the next level of performance enhancement and practice, you know, with, with clients.

Kelli Underwood: And so let's cue up into something that is a little stressful or anxiety provoking or triggering. Right. And let's start noticing how you know that you're getting triggered and where that shows up in your body. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're bringing in some of that somatic body-centered work, some of that nervous system work, and then we have people practice.

Kelli Underwood: What would it be like to just take three or four breaths of a couple of aspects of your center right here? Right. When this happens mm-hmm. Just three or four breaths of the smell of the honeysuckle. Mm. Just three or four breaths of the sound of your son's laughter. Mm-hmm. Is enough to shift you. Right?

Kelli Underwood: Like Deb, Dana talks about moving back towards ventral vagal, [00:46:00] where our home is. That's, that's when we're rest, digest, settled, able to connect, you know, present and anything that moves us a little bit back that way. Is regulating, right? Mm-hmm. Is

Graham Doerge: settling and I don't think most people know that you can do that.

Graham Doerge: Right? Right.

Kelli Underwood: Know what you, most people dunno. It's these little micro moments. People think there's some overwhelming thing they have to learn three or four breaths of your favorite part of what you just did is enough to shift you so that in that moment you can do something different. You have more available.

Kelli Underwood: To choose differently. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It could be the tone of your voice is different. It could be you pause before you speak. It could be you respond instead of react. It could be you walk away.

Graham Doerge: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Totally. Well, and, and I, and you know, here, uh, at our site, we, we do breath work with all of our clients.

Graham Doerge: Um, and it's always amazing to me because it is, Probably one of the most impactful, [00:47:00] uh, yes. Interventions we have here. Yes. And it's, you know, probably the cheapest thing that we do as well. Yes. So it's just, you know, it's amazing and because people go into it, you know, with not really understanding what, what it's gonna be all about.

Graham Doerge: And they come out of it just having this like, transformative experience and it's really beautiful to just kind of give them a little glimpse of like, you know, this is out there and these are things that you can start utilizing and put in your toolbox. Right, right. And your

Kelli Underwood: breath is always available.

Kelli Underwood: Yes. Right.

Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, I talk about recovery as taking radical responsibility for your wellbeing, like understanding only I can make myself feel the way that I want to feel or need to feel. Exactly. Actually, and but this what you're talking about and what we just experienced, it, it, it opens up this whole new layer, which is how can you take responsibility?

Dr. Harold Hong: Unless you trust yourself. Mm. To take responsibility. Yes. Um, but when [00:48:00] you, when you take someone through an exercise like this, you, you're not telling them, you, you are showing them. Right? Like, or they're actually showing them themselves Yes. That they could do it. Yes. Right. And, and as they. You know, cause I'm like, wow, I did that.

Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah, I did that. Yes,

Kelli Underwood: yes. It's there. That's what I love so much is exactly what you're saying. People start to get more confident. Mm-hmm. They feel like they have a, they have competency over how to manage the really hard stuff in life. Right. Okay. I have some things I can do. I have some tools, right?

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And yeah, it brings confidence

Dr. Harold Hong: as we're going through experience, I was feeling. I felt deep relief. Yes. And I also felt like a spark of like joy and energy and to be realistic, like we all need that sense of relief. Yes. From time to time, we all need that spark. Yes, yes. Of inspiration from time to time.

Dr. Harold Hong: And if you grew up in a [00:49:00] place where no one showed you how to do those things yourself. Yeah. Alcohol is a good way to get relief. Exactly. Um, Adderall or like another stimulant is a good way to get that spark. Yep. And so, you know, those substances misused, like they're actually intended for a thing that we all need.

Dr. Harold Hong: Right, right. But the use of those things is born out of this distrust. Yes. That I can do it. Yes. Right. Like I can only get it from out here. But when you're showing people No, like, You can take radical responsibility because you can realistically trust yourself to produce that. Yes. And that's, that's freedom.

Kelli Underwood: That is freedom. Mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. Perfect. That is freedom. Yes. It's so

Dr. Harold Hong: powerful that Yes. You know, it's hard to figure this out on your own. Right. But it's,

Kelli Underwood: I couldn't have, right. If I hadn't walked into Dr. Charlotte Smith's retreat, I don't know that I would've figured this out. Mm-hmm.

Graham Doerge: Yeah. Well, and we're finally talking about these things, right?

Graham Doerge: Yes. And that's the point of, you know, having this [00:50:00] podcast is, is obviously trying to bring a little bit aware of awareness, you know, to folks that, you know. I, I feel super fortunate that. Listen, I went to treatment back in 2008 and I learned a lot of this stuff, but not everybody has that experience.

Graham Doerge: Right, exactly. So, um, you know, for those of us that are kind of luck, lucky enough to have stumbled upon it, it's great. But, but everybody should know about this. Right? Right. Should be front page news. Right, right. Exactly. And Right. You know. Exactly. It's just unfortunately not. And, you know, um, obviously, you know, ob, you know, exercise and taking care of our body and all those kind of components, I mean, this is all so, so important for our overall.

Graham Doerge: Wellbeing, right? Mm-hmm.

Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. It's all important for our overall wellbeing, and it starts with that deeper healing, I find for so many folks is those internalized stories. Yeah. From our painful experiences of, well, I, I don't deserve this. Right. Do I deserve wellbeing? Right. You do. Am I worthy of it?

Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. [00:51:00] Um, am I lovable? Um, Is anybody gonna stay and not leave? Like, all of these things are under it. And I have just found that the trauma treatments and the transformative inside imagery can help people, you know, not just manage symptoms and create new behaviors, which is really important and helpful.

Kelli Underwood: But let's go, let's go to the heart of the matter and let's, let's help you regrow yourself up from the inside with. Compassion and love and support so that you can say like I had a client say the other day. It's a really tiny voice now that wonders if I'm worthy because there's a much louder voice that goes.

Kelli Underwood: Heck yeah, I am. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that isn't that what we all want? Yeah. Right. Yes. We want that part to be in charge. Yes. A hundred percent part that goes, yes, I am

Dr. Harold Hong: worthy. Yes. Amen.

Graham Doerge: Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation and, uh, so much information and [00:52:00] where can everybody find you? Your website?

Graham Doerge: I, I gather.

Kelli Underwood: Oh yes. My website is my name, kelly underwood.com. The trick is you have to spell my name the way my mother gave it to me, which is k e l l I got it. Underwood just like, yes, the singer and no, I'm not related, nor am I related to the actor Blair. There you go. Um, and, uh, I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, it's my name, Kelly Underwood, l c s w.

Kelli Underwood: Great. And. Yeah, and I have, uh, some upcoming stuff going on. I'm actually just joined the platform of CE training and workshops. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna be doing an introduction to t i i on there for three CEEs in July. It'll be recorded. And also offer some introduction on my website through just a course that you pay for without CEEs for folks who just wanna experience it.

Kelli Underwood: Perfect.

Graham Doerge: I love it. Really such great information and thanks for coming in today. Thanks for having me. Um, and find us@findingnewwaters.com and [00:53:00] on all streaming platforms and we will talk to you guys next week. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much.

Dr. Harold Hong: Thank you all.

In this captivating episode, we invite you to join us as we explore the remarkable story of Kelli Underwood, a passionate psychotherapist and the owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Kelli's commitment to lifelong learning and her integrative approach to therapy have allowed her to offer a diverse range of options tailored to the unique needs of each client.Together with Graham Doerge, the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, and Dr. Harold Hong, the medical director, we embark on a deeply insightful conversation with Kelli, delving into her personal journey and the driving force behind her career in the behavioral health field.

Key Takeaways:

• The Power of Compassionate Listening: Kelli's childhood experiences as a trusted confidant for her friends led her to recognize the value of being a good listener and propelled her towards a career in a helping profession.

• The Transformative Potential of Therapy: Kelli shares a life-changing moment when she sought therapy as a teenager and experienced the profound impact of being genuinely heard, validated, and supported. This experience solidified her desire to create a similar safe space for others.

• The Importance of Rapport and Trust: Kelli highlights the significance of building a strong therapeutic relationship based on rapport, empathy, and trust. She emphasizes that clients should have the freedom to choose a therapist who aligns with their needs and values.

• Accessing Inner Wisdom and Self-Trust: Kelli introduces transformative Insight Imagery (tii) as a powerful therapeutic approach that empowers clients to trust themselves and access their own inner resources. By emphasizing self-trust and wisdom, tii promotes healing and personal growth.

• Resourcing and Readiness in Trauma Recovery: Kelli sheds light on trauma and the importance of creating a sense of safety and empowerment before delving into deeper healing work. She underscores the significance of readiness and the order of interventions based on each client's unique journey.

Join us as we dive into the world of transformative therapy with Kelli Underwood, and discover the transformative power of trust, compassion, and self-discovery on the path to healing and wellness. This episode serves as a beacon of hope and guidance for those seeking support in their mental health and addiction recovery journeys.

Kelli's Links:

⁠https://www.kelliunderwood.com/⁠

⁠https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kelli-underwood-durham-nc/177948⁠

⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-underwood-05763734/⁠

Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠

New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠

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For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠ and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠. Join us on this transformative journey!