Question 1

Podcast Transcript

Accepted Answer

#016 Leslie Kellog
Lesley Kellogg: [00:00:00] So psychedelic assisted psychotherapy would be having a substance in during a therapy session. So it could be M D M A, it could be psilocybin. But having that substance during the session and then seeing what unfolds during it, it includes a lot of specialized training because everything is intensified.
Lesley Kellogg: So if you have a trauma focused session, you're un unearthing a lot of very intense memories that you could be having flashbacks sitting there with a client. During those things. You add a substance that's psychoactive on top of it, it's going to intensify the situation. So knowing how to respond when those moments come up.[00:01:00] 
Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health.
Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light on what is often the darkest hour for many families. I am joined today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Leslie Kellogg, who is the founder of Prism Wellness in Carey, North Carolina.
Graham Doerge: Leslie opened Prism Wellness in 2020 with the goal of creating a group practice that provides a space for people to better understand the strengths they already embody that can help support them in the more challenging parts of life. Leslie's also an advocate for the continued research into psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and has completed the M D M A assisted [00:02:00] psychotherapy training conducted by the multiple multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic studies.
Graham Doerge: Leslie's excited at the possibility of incorporating M D M A assisted psychotherapy into a practice upon hopeful f D a approval. Leslie, thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of course. And we're super excited because obviously this is a kind of a hot button topic right now, right?
Graham Doerge: And you're hearing a lot about this, just everywhere in the world right now, obviously MAPS is leading the charge with, all the. A lot of the research so to say. But I would love to get a little bit of an explanation from you on exactly what is psychedelic assisted therapy.
Lesley Kellogg: Sure. Yeah. And so grateful for maps. I'm not affiliated with maps but so grateful for them and Rick Doblin and all the work that they've done. So psychedelic assisted psychotherapy would be having a substance. In during a therapy session. So it could be M D M A, it could be psilocybin. But having that substance during [00:03:00] the session and then seeing what unfolds during it, it includes a lot of specialized training because everything is intensified.
Lesley Kellogg: So if you have a trauma focused session, You're un unearthing a lot of very intense memories that you could be having flashbacks sitting there with a client during those things. You add a substance that's psychoactive on top of it, it's going to intensify the situation. So knowing how to respond when those moments come up.
Graham Doerge: Love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I know just, obviously I've had, psychedelic experiences in my life. Just understanding the kind of, one of the, one of the core pieces is the set and setting. And and obviously just being prepared in the right way and having the right intentions going into a practice like this are so important.
Graham Doerge: But can you talk about a little bit about like the preparation? Sure. That goes into all this. 
Lesley Kellogg: Sure. So set and setting is so important when it comes to psychedelic use period, let alone if it's psychedelic assisted therapy. But when we think of set, we [00:04:00] think of your mindset. What are you coming into this experience with?
Lesley Kellogg: What is your expectation? What is going to happen if your expectation is it met? How do you plan on handling that? Yeah. So set can be worked on prior to, and should be worked on prior to the experience. That could be done by yourself through journaling, but it would be lovely to be doing it with a professional or somebody that just has experience with psychedelics as well.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Like you said, when you have an experience with psychedelics, it makes you shift your expectations a little bit and learn some of that flexibility. So sitting down with somebody who has had experiences is. Really valuable. Yeah. Because that's gonna affect the way that you experience what happens.
Lesley Kellogg: A lot of people go into an experience and they think they know what they're gonna work on. Yeah. They've worked on their intentions And then something else comes up. And knowing what to do in those situations is really important. Knowing what support you have in those situations is really important.
Lesley Kellogg: Then we have setting, which is your physical space. So are you in a space that's [00:05:00] comfortable? Are you in a space that's clean? If you have to go to the restroom, how far is it? Do you have to go down a scary hallway? Yep. Yep. Is there music playing? Yeah. Yeah. What type of music. Yep.
Lesley Kellogg: Do you have comfortable pillows, some somewhere to lay down, or are you supposed to be sitting up? Are you outside? All these things could be great, outside, could be great, or it could be really challenging depending on what else is going on. So making sure you're able to work through that ahead of time and, things happen and being able to be flexible, but a lot of what people refer to as bad trips can be avoided through working through set and setting ahead of time.
Lesley Kellogg: And having somebody trusted that you can utilize. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So as we're getting this, I just realized I've had so many wonderful. Catch up times with you over the last year of getting to know you in the therapy community. Yeah. But I've actually never heard your story about what got you interested in psychedelics.
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And I think that'd be like, just real interesting to 
Lesley Kellogg: hear. Sure. Yeah. Let me think [00:06:00] about that. Re rewind the tapes. I think when it comes to psychedelics, my first experience in the therapeutic world was I got an invitation in the mail when I was provisionally licensed for. Ketamine treatment center that was opening up.
Lesley Kellogg: And this was probably seven years ago or so. And I went and was so excited and I remember leaving because, oh, I stayed to the end Uhhuh. I didn't leave in the middle of it, but it was all catered toward providers, med providers. And there was no talk about. Therapy. Huh. And so I left feeling really dissatisfied with that.
Lesley Kellogg: And then I looked a little bit deeper on my own time and stumbled upon maps and had some friends that did more of like the festival thing. It wasn't my, it wasn't my jam, but I would've loved to have go, gone to a festival just to provide care. Because I knew that people would be using substances and being a therapist. That's, I love that. I love to be there for people who just need a need. Somebody that they can rela, rely on for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:00] So did my own work Found through maps I found a few different organizations that I could learn from, and then I The world just opened up and I started my own psychedelic work.
Lesley Kellogg: And it helped me grow tremendously as a practitioner. It helped my friendships, my marriage, my relationships with family members. And I remember thinking about clients throughout my experiences. How it could be really helpful for people who just get stuck. Our brain has a lot of powerful ways to protect us, and when we go through traumas, Our brain protects us in a way.
Lesley Kellogg: To try to help us not go back to that trauma. But what happens is the trauma comes back. The trauma comes back. It affects our relationships. Yeah. So I learned in my work how I. For some reason, when I was on when I was experiencing those psychedelics, I was able to look at things very differently than I was when I wasn't in that non-ordinary state.
Lesley Kellogg: So that propelled me and through maps, being able to go through that training [00:08:00] Yeah. Which was a hundred hours. Wow. And extremely intense. Everybody that I've ever talked to that's done it Uhhuh agrees that it's the most intense thing that you could do as a therapist, because that's awesome.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. It's, you spend hours just talking about transference and countertransference. You spend hours talking about ruptures in the therapeutic setting and how to repair those touch how that can be used therapeutically. Yeah. So many things that could be helpful in the therapeutic setting, but then when you intensify it, you've realize how much power it has.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. So after pursuing that training, I just it. It lit a fire under me to keep learning because it's a whole new environment that is being created. It's a whole new protocol that's being created. Yeah. A whole new ethics board that's being created. So there's no shortage of resources for me to dive into.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: So it was super interesting. It's out there, but it's not, Used in maybe its fullest extent and there's, it's a exciting red hot area of science. Yeah, 
Lesley Kellogg: [00:09:00] definitely. Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: And many people joining the podcast probably don't know about maps or are very skeptical Yeah. As they're entering into this conversation.
Dr. Harold Hong: So can you tell us a little bit about MAPS and the work that they're doing? Sure. Yeah. 
Lesley Kellogg: So MAPS was founded in 1986 by Rick Doblin, and his goal was to figure out how to bring the government in because we know that these well. I say we, they, I wasn't born. They knew that these substances weren't bad.
Lesley Kellogg: These substances did have therapeutic value. These substances were not like the propaganda made us believe that is it gonna melt your brain and it's gonna make everybody jump off of the roof, right? Yep. Reefer badness. 
Graham Doerge: Exactly. 
Lesley Kellogg: Exactly. Yeah. There was so much that was just circulated to, to make people afraid of L S D or M D M A cannabis psilocybin and all of them.
Lesley Kellogg: And so he founded it to try to bring a awareness and b, look at the therapeutic value that had already been proven through the underground [00:10:00] work and work that had been done before it was rescheduled. Yeah. 1986. Fast forward. Now Maps has done schedule. It's not rescheduled. There's no rescheduling, but MAPS has done up to phase three studies of M D M A and they're showing insane benefits, right?
Lesley Kellogg: So 67% of the participants after the phase two study. No longer met that criteria for ptsd. Wow. And that was two months after the study ended. And then there's follow up studies as well. But when you look at the millions of people that have PTs D in the United States and the world and then you look at a statistic like 67% of people no longer meet criteria. That's wild, right? Yeah. That's so powerful, 
Graham Doerge: right? Look at all the vets and soldiers that we have coming back Yes. Who are just, these guys unfortunately are killing themselves at, just an incredible rate.
Graham Doerge: And it's just, it's. It's hard to see, these studies and look at this research and be like, gosh, why aren't we doing more about this? [00:11:00] Or why isn't this more available to more people? And I think we're getting there. We're close. And hopefully as you we said in the bio I think probably by next year, M D M A will be FDA 
Lesley Kellogg: approved, correct?
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Fda, so FDA gave M dma the fast track to approval. Breakthrough status. Yep. It's not really fast and it shouldn't be fast, to be honest, because it is important to, to learn all these new protocols that need to be put into place. Because like you said, vets are going outside of the country for care.
Lesley Kellogg: Even when. This country is potentially why they have developed ptsd. We aren't able to provide the care that we need and we are losing so many vets. So hopefully with the FDA coming along and hopefully approving M D M A, we'll be able to provide care maybe end of this year or next year.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. But then each state is gonna have their own say in that as well, right? Yeah. And it potentially could be FDA approved and not rescheduled. So then we'll have to look at that [00:12:00] with, it could be FDA approved and you could prescribe it. But the feds can come in at any moment and. Yeah. Shut you down because you're using an illegal substance.
Lesley Kellogg: Got 
Dr. Harold Hong: it. Because the dea, drug Enforcement Agency, they set the schedule, correct? And FDA approves it for clinical use. Yeah. So FDA approved oxycodone for clinical use. And the DEA made it schedule two. Yep. Exactly. And so the DA might actually make it schedule one, meaning there's no clinical benefit and they might.
Dr. Harold Hong: Put a lot of lockdown on that. So it could be challenging. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. So schedule one. Yeah. No clinical benefit, no therapeutic value, but that's where most of them lie. Ketamine doesn't lie there. But yes, M Dmma, psilocybin Schedule one. Dmt. Dmt, exactly. Yeah. Which you have research that shows Yeah.
Lesley Kellogg: The complete opposite, right? 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But, yeah. So if someone comes along and say, you're just. You're just hooking people up on drugs. Yeah. Like you're just making [00:13:00] more addicts. Yeah. Like I think there's a lot of people who think that, and, they're going along with.
Dr. Harold Hong: All of the negative connotations of psychedelics. And so if someone brings that up to you and says, how can you be involved with this? Sure. How do you, how do 
Lesley Kellogg: you talk about that? I would talk about it for a long time. I would've a lot to say, start bringing 
Graham Doerge: out lots of statistics.
Graham Doerge: Yeah, exactly. Lots 
Lesley Kellogg: of research studies we'll be on. Hold on. Little whiteboard. Yeah. So M D M A can have addictive properties. Huh. But psilocybin does not DMT does not the way that it's prescribed too will affect that. And when you're doing. Psychotherapy with it. It's very different than using a substance and going to a club.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. The intensity of the work that comes and unfolds because of what it does in your brain to allow you to affect, to tap into some of those traumatic moments it's not as likely to produce a, an addictive effect because of what we said about set and setting. Yeah. You're not going into this. I can't wait to.
Lesley Kellogg: [00:14:00] Dance all night, right? You're going into this with what can I learn from this really traumatic event, right? And how can I apply that to change my life, right? It's very different. Yeah. 
Graham Doerge: Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And I think that, talking about the trauma and all that is that, what we're seeing is obviously trauma gets stored in the body.
Graham Doerge: And it's making us sicker and sicker. And we're so good at just pushing that down and, I'm gonna charge forward and I'm never gonna really look at this and, give it the time that it needs. And it's such an amazing tool to just. It takes down all those barriers, right?
Graham Doerge: And it makes you look at all of those things face to face. Yeah. For the for probably, a lot of us, I think are probably not even really able to look at those things, or so it's it's an incredible tool to, work on the traumatic 
Lesley Kellogg: piece. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. M D M A will reduce the activity in your amygdala. Yeah. So when we have trauma, the amygdala is there to help us, right? The amygdala is there to help us. Stay safe. Yeah. But then we have M D M A that reduces that and then you're allowed to look at things a little bit differently.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. You're able to [00:15:00] look at them and stay your feet here, you know where you are. Versus look at them and all of a sudden you're zapped back to whatever that experience was for you. So it's very powerful and you're able to look at it with some empathy for yourself. Because m DM A is an empathogen, it helps connect you to yourself and other people. So having that, you're able to look at it without or with some distance from maybe some of that shame or some of that hate that you had for yourself for even having that experience. So it's, there's so many tears to M D M A and why it's effective for trauma.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I talk about this in some ways. Similarly when it comes to Suboxone treatment. Like medication-assisted treatment for opiate use disorder. So a, like a really common refrain for people doing opiate use disorder that are coming to new waters is, I, yes. I use like massive amounts of fentanyl and I'm just done with opiates.
Dr. Harold Hong: I'm just done. I don't want to be on Suboxone. I don't want any m a t I just want to be sober. And [00:16:00] the thinking is Suboxone just trading one. And one drug for another. It gets I'm not actually making progress in my recovery when I do that and this that talk makes a lot of sense, like when you just hear it as it is.
Dr. Harold Hong: But then you look at what happens to people who go cold Turkey without good support and over 90% will probably relapse within the first year. And. So then I talked about it depends on how you're using Suboxone, right? Because some people, they are misusing it recreationally or just self dosing without like proper medical supervision and without proper support.
Dr. Harold Hong: And yeah, like it does look like drug abuse for that perspective, especially if they mix it with alcohol or a benzo. But I tell them, Hey, you can use Suboxone to disconnect from reality the same way you would use fentanyl to disconnect from reality. Or you can use Suboxone to get rid of your withdrawal symptoms.
Dr. Harold Hong: Get rid of your cravings, and get your feet on the [00:17:00] ground, go to your appointments, cook dinner for your kids, go to work. So one way, using Suboxone, you're actually more plugged into reality. Another way you're disconnecting from reality. And that's the real difference between using it for addiction or using it for your recovery.
Dr. Harold Hong: Like what's bringing you closer to reality, so I think there's some parallels there. Oh, definitely. With how you can use psychedelics to escape reality, or you could use it to actually experience it more intensely. I. And or and more realistically and get your recovery on 
Lesley Kellogg: track. Oh, definitely.
Lesley Kellogg: And I would even ask that person whose voice is that? Yeah. Who's saying it's you're trading one for another? Is that your voice? Is that somebody else's? Is that society Right? And does that really fit what your intention is going into this? Because a lot of times it's not, it's the fear that you're trading one for another.
Lesley Kellogg: But if you're able to cook dinner and be there for your [00:18:00] kids and go to work then is that really a one for one trade? 
Dr. Harold Hong: It's not totally different. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I think it's the therapeutic component, right? Yes. And that for sure is where it all boils down to, in my opinion, is that, if we're, just.
Graham Doerge: Dosing these clients and they're not, there's no therapeutic component to M A t, which is medicated assisted therapy. Then you know you're missing the target. And I think the same thing with the psychedelics. Yeah. You've gotta have a facilitator in that experience.
Graham Doerge: You've gotta have somebody walking you through that process and yeah it's essential. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Thanks for bringing it back because I should have mentioned that when we talked about maps Yeah. Because they're approving it as the whole therapy. So it's the medication assisted psychotherapy.
Lesley Kellogg: Which is very different than if we would talk about another medication like ketamine or s bravado where it was approved as a medication. And while cap Ketamine assisted psychotherapy is gonna improve the effectiveness, it. Is not how it's necessarily always marketed. So with M dm, a, it's the whole package.
Lesley Kellogg: It's [00:19:00] working together in preparatory stages, having your dosing, then having your integration. And maybe we should get into integration because that's yeah. Better integration 
Graham Doerge: sounds how important that 
Lesley Kellogg: is. Yeah. Yeah. So integration is taking, what insights were gained during your experience and implementing them into your life.
Lesley Kellogg: You have a profound experience. You have all this insight. You wanna call your mom and tell her you love her. You have some forgiveness for yourself, but then you leave and then you go about life the same way that you did before the experience. And that's very hard. But you also have psychedelics also open up the neuroplasticity which you may be able to speak on more than I do.
Lesley Kellogg: Which means that you can really open up more neural pathways and change the way that your brain sees its patterns. Yes. Change the way that you interact. Change the way that you interact with yourself, right? So when we have the therapeutic component involved, you're able to really touch base on the.
Lesley Kellogg: [00:20:00] Implementation of, I didn't just go do this experience and I felt really good and that was great. I did this experience, learned these things, and now my life is changing and I'm changing my life in these ways. And people around you will see it. A lot of times people would leave and this is anecdotal.
Lesley Kellogg: I did not experience this. But we were told that clients would leave and then people in their life would say what's changed? Something's really different about you. You're coming to these dinners, or you're answering your phone, right? Or you're able to go here. What did you do? Yeah. And just, 
or 
Graham Doerge: the light is back in your eye.
Graham Doerge: Exactly. Yeah. You look younger or, it's, yeah, exactly. It takes that kind of stress, I feel like. Yeah. Way in a lot 
Lesley Kellogg: of ways. Yeah. People like, you hold your head up a little bit higher. Yeah. You're not afraid of things as many times. So the integration part is something that.
Lesley Kellogg: One of my fears for when everything hopefully does get approved that people will slack off on. Because a lot of times it's the substance that gets people into the door, but it's the work before and after that's really gonna improve the longevity [00:21:00] of what that experience was. So the integration piece is as important, if not more important than the medicine session itself. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess is there Is there a particular, timeframe that people are looking, is it doing this every six months or once a year, or is there any sort of protocol around that, or no, 
Lesley Kellogg: there may be has.
Lesley Kellogg: I'm sure they'll develop one. So the M D M A protocol was you had three 90 minute prep sessions, and then one eight hour M D M A session. Okay. And then the follow up. Prep integration sessions, and then the next medicine session was three to five weeks later. Got it. And it was a three protocol, so three dosing sessions.
Lesley Kellogg: Got it. But once it's approved, not everybody has to do three. Some people may wanna do five. So it's gonna be this. Every document that's being published now for psychedelics is like a living, breathing document. Because it depends on the substance, it depends on the person, it depends on what their [00:22:00] goals are.
Lesley Kellogg: I don't I think it'll always be a very flexible individualized protocol. Yeah, 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So it's bravado, right? It's out there. It's a medication. It's most frequently used simply as a medication, right? So most of clinics I'm seeing you go in, You sit in chair, you get your dose, and you're observed for one to two hours.
Dr. Harold Hong: And that's the end of that day. And then you come back, you do it several times a week for several weeks. How is it, how is that? Compared to Ketamine assisted psychotherapy? 
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah, that's a good question. So with Cap, you would have way more intense preparation. So what music do you wanna listen to during your session?
Lesley Kellogg: It's always advised that it's, no words more just melodic. It could be very soothing or it could be intense depending on the intensity of the things that you wanna work through. Yeah. Are you gonna bring an eyeshade. If one isn't provided for you. Sometimes having little hard [00:23:00] candies if you get a nasty taste in your mouth, to just utilize if necessary. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Cuz a lot of people are it tastes very unpleasant. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yes, it does. Uhhuh and some places do a good job of prepping their clients for that, and some places don't acknowledge it. So just. Going through that, right? Doing all the prep. What's your intention?
Lesley Kellogg: What are we gonna do if you start to feel really unsettled during your session? Maybe going through some breath work. Going through therapeutic touch. If you need somebody's hand to hold, this is where I'll hold your hand when you're ready to let go. This is what we're gonna do. Yep.
Lesley Kellogg: If you need to go to the restroom, this is where I'll touch your back. This is where I'll touch your hand if you need it. Going through tons and tons of consent. Yeah. Then we have the actual medicine session. And it's a very nondirective approach. So the therapist is not in the room talking to you the whole time.
Lesley Kellogg: It's very inner directed. We talk about it inner healing intelligence. So you, your body naturally wants to heal you. Your brain naturally wants to heal you. The therapist isn't there. [00:24:00] Using IFS or EMDR or cbt, like you're just there as a supportive person. Yep. That's there to coach. Just your overall wellness if necessary.
Lesley Kellogg: Gotcha. But then if you say something really intriguing, the therapist might write it down. Got it. So the therapist can be taking notes. So if you say something powerful, we can use that later in the integration stages. With, you brought this up. Do you remember what was going on?
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. How are you gonna apply that? To your life now? So then after the closure of the medicine session, then meeting for your integration sessions afterward. And what came up for you? What's different, if anything? Yeah. If it's not different, how are we gonna work on that?
Lesley Kellogg: Especially having people going in with suicidal ideation and wanting to work through that. If you still have it at the end and you don't have somebody to talk to about that is so shattering. So having a professional that you can talk to, having support already laid out. So you're more likely to feel, your, [00:25:00] feel what you can do next, versus just feeling hopeless because this was the thing that was supposed to help me.
Lesley Kellogg: Wow. I went out of my brain to do this. Yeah. And I still feel I. Crap. So having a therapeutic support for that. Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: So would that be all those integration sessions after one medication session? 
Lesley Kellogg: Or like several? It depends. Okay. It's I, ideally, yes. So you would have your prep session and then your medicine session, and then your integration session or more.
Lesley Kellogg: Some people then wanna go back, Pretty quickly and do a next session. Some people don't uhhuh. It really just depends. But having an integration session or at least some sort of protocol to do after your medicine sessions would would always be advised. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And have you worked with clients that have experienced both, like conventional medicine only versus academy assisted psychotherapy?
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And what kinds of stories are they telling about the difference? 
Lesley Kellogg: When we talk about convention conventional medicine, do you mean SSRIs 
Dr. Harold Hong: [00:26:00] or, oh, just SPR bravado. You went to a clinic, they gave you your dose and they Yeah. They checked you out a couple hours later.
Lesley Kellogg: Got you. Yes. So I had a client who had a pretty negative experience because it was, there was a lot of different things that in interacted. Where the set was not talked about. The person in the room was not the person in the room that would've been, she knew this person. And so then she was afraid of what I'm gonna say.
Lesley Kellogg: Because I know this person. What if the thoughts I'm having, I'm saying out loud because you don't know if sometimes uhhuh what is my thought and what am I actually verbalizing? So that is what tripped me up to. Reach out to the provider and say, can I, how would you feel if I came in, this is where I'm coming from.
Lesley Kellogg: This is my experience. And the provider open welcomed me with open arms, which is fantastic. Yeah. But then after that, the experience was a lot more calming it. She knew that if she said something ev I told her, even if you say I cannot stand Leslie, she is the worst therapist ever. That's totally okay.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. And I'm not, when she opens her eyes, [00:27:00] I'm not gonna say, so let's talk about this. That's right. Like I'm really happy that you felt honest that's okay. Yeah. So having a space to where you could just be completely yourself and then working on it afterwards with a therapist that knows.
Lesley Kellogg: More about the experience and from what I've heard has been really helpful. Versus just relying on yourself and then telling the doctor, yes, it was good, or No, I think I need more, or I don't ever wanna do this again. What did you do to me? 
Dr. Harold Hong: Right. Huge difference. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah, 
Graham Doerge: definitely huge.
Graham Doerge: Is there anybody that absolutely should not do this? 
Lesley Kellogg: That's a good question. I think with people who have a history of maybe like intense history of dissociation, I. But I say that with also stating that there are therapists that will specialize in working with people with dissociation through psychedelics.
Lesley Kellogg: So it depends on the medical team that you have, and it should always be some sort of team if possible. Yeah. So it's not [00:28:00] just a therapist, like there is a provider, a doctor that, or a. PA or whatever. That knows the medical side. That can work on work with you too. 
Graham Doerge: Right?
Graham Doerge: Take taking vitals throughout. 
Lesley Kellogg: Exactly. Throughout. Yeah. Because there's practitioners that specialize in working with people with autism, with psychedelics. There's practitioners that will specialize in working with people with bipolar disorder, with psychedelics. Where you have that potential for mania.
Lesley Kellogg: So making sure that you have a practitioner that knows. As much as they can before you make that decision. Yeah. Is important. Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: So like in the absence of a special like care plan for people who are complicated most practices will say, relative contraindications are history of psychosis, history of mania.
Dr. Harold Hong: History of like very high or uncontrolled hypertension. Because ketamine can cause your blood pressure to rise dramatically. 
Graham Doerge: Gotcha. Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: And also substance use. So like people who are actively abusing substances a ketamine would not be considered like the right time to do the treatment.
Dr. Harold Hong: Got it. And 
Graham Doerge: what about clients that are on any other medica, [00:29:00] are on SSRIs and things of that nature. Is that conflicting in any 
Dr. Harold Hong: way or? No? You can be on an antidepressant and on ketamine, but most people are on, are doing ketamine treatment because they don't respond to SSRIs.
Dr. Harold Hong: And there's some new clinical research coming out showing that. In this study population, ketamine treatment was equivalent to E C T. Wow. E c t is considered like the most effective, the most rapid resolution of severe depression. But it's a very, a taxing procedure to undergo, right?
Dr. Harold Hong: You have to be seen by an anesthesiologist and a psychiatrist at the same time. You have to basically take the whole day off from work because you have to be driven to the clinic and cuz of the anesthesia, you really can't drive yourself home. And this is three times a week for two to three weeks for an index course.
Dr. Harold Hong: And it, that's you're take talking about taking like a month off of work basically. Wow. For a lot of people. Yeah. That's incredible. So the idea that ketamine is [00:30:00] equivalent to e C t is a game changer for treatment refractory depression. Yeah, 
Graham Doerge: absolutely. Yeah. Any other 
Dr. Harold Hong: questions, doc? Oh, like so many, right?
Dr. Harold Hong: Keep going. Yeah. Let's see. Okay, so have you ever, what are some things that patients should really think about before like this? What are some things that a patient would reflect on and say, yeah, this could be. The right fit 
Lesley Kellogg: for me. I think openness, number one.
Lesley Kellogg: Flexibility is important because if, when people go in with rigidity and knowing what to expect, yeah. That can backfire a lot. And so we ask people to go in with a beginner's mind. Where you're open to whatever unfolds and you also know that you have support for whatever unfolds.
Lesley Kellogg: People who I think. Have had psychedelic experience can be helpful, but it's not necessary. In many of the studies, they actually had a high number of people that were coming from a Catholic [00:31:00] background where they did not have a, the flexibility and. Catholicism and flexibility don't really mesh that well.
Lesley Kellogg: And nor does psychedelic use, right? But they actually had really incredible experiences and labeled them as some of the most spiritual experiences that they've ever had, right? So being able to be flexible and to be able to go with the flow. Now saying that to somebody with a history of trauma, can, they might say I'm not flexible.
Lesley Kellogg: I can't be flexible. If I'm flexible, I might get hurt. So working on that ahead of time too. Yeah. But I think just people who are open to it. And trust your gut. The more you learn, the more you think it's not for you. Go with that. Yeah. I think with it being everywhere now where there's books, there's podcasts, there's, there's Netflix, right?
Lesley Kellogg: There's so many things on psychedelics where it's almost being shown as a silver bullet. And so people think this is what I should do. And it's not right. It will be effective for some people. It will be ineffective for some people. So going [00:32:00] into it thinking. It through for you, not this is what I should do because this is what I see everywhere.
Lesley Kellogg: Or because there's a catchy headline. Yeah. Yeah. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. 
Graham Doerge: And I would also think too that, that everybody has gotta be very careful about where they're doing this. If they're going out of the country to do this, be very cautious. Definitely about where you're going. Right?
Graham Doerge: Because I think that there are a lot of people that are, taking advantage of the fact that this is such a hot topic right now and maybe aren't, don't have the right the right people in involved or the right support in involved to to run one of these places. So right.
Graham Doerge: Yeah, doing your due diligence is essential for 
Lesley Kellogg: sure. And it's even hard to, for people who don't really know what even, what questions to even ask. Absolutely. 
Graham Doerge: What would you tell Yeah. People, what kind of questions 
Lesley Kellogg: I would ask? If you're going outside of the country, what type of support, what are my accommodations gonna be like?
Lesley Kellogg: Am I going to be by myself? Is somebody gonna be with me the whole time? Is there gonna be a camera in the room? What's my dose gonna be? How often do I talk to a provider? A medical [00:33:00] provider. How many sessions do I have before or after? What do I do if I get there and I don't wanna do it?
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Is that gonna be something that's accepted and discussed? Or is this something where you're here and I'm gonna be talking you into it? I think when it comes to. Underground work too. That's very popular And I think a lot of underground work is great. And then there's a lot of underground work that is abusive and explain underground work.
Lesley Kellogg: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. So underground work would be, I. Practitioners, they could be licensed or they could not be necessarily licensed, but they're facilitating sessions with medicine from homes or from Airbnbs or from hotels. And it sounds pretty sketchy and it can be pretty sketchy. But it also can be really powerful.
Lesley Kellogg: And how do you know the difference? So I would always ask people, I would, if I was trying to find a place to go for myself, I would ask who is the facilitator? Am I able to speak to the facilitator? Yep. What other people are gonna be there as [00:34:00] support? Are these people going to be also under the influence of the medicine?
Lesley Kellogg: And I'm not saying that if the answer is yes, that's wrong, but it's good to know. Yeah. What is a normal session like? Yep. Has anything bad ever happened? What do you guys do when something like that happens? Yeah. If I pass out, what's gonna happen? There's so many different ways that something can go wrong, but with adequate preparation, you're really helping yourself to figure out what's gonna happen next.
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Can I bring somebody? Yeah. Can I talk to somebody who has gone through your protocol just to see what their experience was like? 
Graham Doerge: Think that's a huge one right there. Yeah. And we do that with a lot of alumni families and whatnot. Is listen, we'll we're happy to set you up with a couple alumni parents who've, been through our program, experienced what we do, and they can tell you what their experience was like. Yeah. And think something like that would be huge definitely to an experience like this. You, I would want to know somebody who went there and had gone through this before. I think, yeah, exactly. But also what's the facilitator's background, right?
Graham Doerge: Yes. How long have they been doing this? Why [00:35:00] are they doing this? Yes. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yes. Yeah. So especially if, I'm always weary of if people, especially in western culture, that refer to themselves as a shaman. And I'm not saying that there aren't some, but just to be aware of that.
Lesley Kellogg: What is, are they approachable? Did they think that they know everything? Because that's always a red flag for me. Yeah. Even through all of my training and learning from people who have been in. Been experiencing psychedelics and been studying psychedelics for longer than I've been alive.
Lesley Kellogg: They'll always say that they don't know everything. Oh, yeah. And that they're always learning. Yeah. And they can learn from anybody regardless of where they are in their career. Yeah. And that's what I look to, right? Not the person who's all knowing and can feel everything and sense everything.
Lesley Kellogg: It's the people that are just, I'm just a guy, or I'm just a girl and this is my calling and if I need help. I'll ask. That's always really powerful to hear. 
Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. 
Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it's obviously a great topic and more will be exposed here over the coming years.
Graham Doerge: Yes. And [00:36:00] it'll really be interesting to see how the politics play into all this and how big pharma plays into all of this. But I think all in all, going back to the therapeutic component, is just, if we lose that or if that somehow doesn't become the priority, then.
Graham Doerge: I think that they're this isn't gonna be as effective as it could be. Definitely. And we've gotta hold onto to that. But thank you for coming in and speaking with us today. This was so fun. Thank you. And yeah. Yeah. Where can everybody find you? First in, first 
Lesley Kellogg: off? Yeah. So through my practice website is www dot prism, not prison Prism.
Lesley Kellogg: Wellness nc.com and my contact information is on the website. Perfect. And we'll 
Graham Doerge: have everything listed out too in our show notes. And you can find us at finding new waters.com. And this will be streaming on all streaming platforms. And we will see y'all next week. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Graham Doerge: Thanks for having me. Me, Leslie. 
Lesley Kellogg: Yeah.[00:37:00]

Question 2

Show Notes

Accepted Answer

In this enlightening episode of Finding New Waters Podcast we welcome guest speaker Lesley Kellogg, a seasoned psychotherapist with profound expertise in psychedelic-assisted therapies. We delve into the fascinating world of psychedelics, their therapeutic potential, and how they are transforming modern psychotherapy.
Our discussion begins with a detailed exploration of the healing potential of psychedelic substances such as psilocybin and ketamine, focusing on their ability to provide relief to individuals suffering from conditions like PTSD, depression, and addiction.
We then tackle the prerequisites and considerations for individuals seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy, stressing the importance of thorough preparation, the right mindset, and a supportive therapeutic environment. We also discuss the potential risks associated with psychedelics and the importance of exercising due diligence when seeking treatment, particularly outside of a regulated setting.
Lastly, we contemplate the future of psychedelic-assisted therapy, considering potential obstacles such as political factors and the influence of big pharma.Join us for this intriguing exploration of the expanding frontier of psychedelic therapy, and discover how this revolution could potentially reshape mental health treatment.

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Exploring the Psychedelic Realm: A Deep Dive into Therapeutic Applications with Lesley Kellogg