"Experiential therapy is an overarching umbrella to all the action based therapies and
it's eclectic.."

Sheila Maitland

Dr. Harold Hong: [00:00:00] All right. Well, thank you for joining us, Sheila, on this episode of Guiding New Waters. We're excited to have you. Shiela Maitland: I'm excited to be here. Thank you. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And thank you Justin for being here. Absolutely. My pleasure. All right, good. Well today we wanna talk about your career in psychotherapy, Sheila. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in deciding to even be a therapist? Shiela Maitland: Sure. , it's a great story. Was fortunate to get into recovery as a 24 year old, and shortly after that I was in some group therapy as a client and I was in sales at the time. and one of the group members suggested I go to onsite workshops, which is a, an amazing place. At the time, it was in the Black Hills of South Dakota. Huh. And it [00:01:00] was an experiential. Workshop. That was so profoundly healing for me that I came home and within six weeks got into grad school. Oh, wow. Because I wanted to do what they were doing. Justin Mclendon: That's Shiela Maitland: awesome. Yeah. Wow. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. and, and now you are leading the relationship in Richmond Center, which is a, I would say it's like a destination referral. I mean, I know that people are traveling Yeah. From all across the country, if not internationally to Charlotte Airport and then staying in Matthews, North Carolina to, to work with your group. I mean, that's a, that's a tremendous point A to point B journey. Could you, how you, you went from graduate school and then to starting your own practice. Yeah. And starting the r e c. Shiela Maitland: Thank you. Well, onsite workshops has been a huge part of [00:02:00] that for me because the work combined with recovery is what has really opened the doors. And. being able to try and apply recovery to all the things that I do and including my work has been so it, it's made it clear what they say in recovery is, if you're not sure, pause. Mm-hmm. . Now, it's not like I've done that perfectly , but I always knew. because of my experience that I wanted to do experiential therapy and a lot of group therapy. And so in my thirties and in the years that I was raising a family, I had the distinct privilege. [00:03:00] Working at onsite every few weeks and months, and it's helped me meet people from all over the world. This experiential therapy is kind of a niche and there's a fabulous group of people that are really drawn to working this way and. it has helped me expand conceptually a systems approach. A systems approach to working family systems is how I work with families. And so using that concept to drive how I'm trying to work with clients employees. Like trying to use the same principle. Mm-hmm. Each part of the system impacts the whole. [00:04:00] And yeah. That has just been amazing to then grow in really just in the last few years into a group practice and, yeah. . Dr. Harold Hong: So the, you the experiential piece is so important for us to hear about. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hate to drop this huge philosophical question on you, but Yes. Can you tell us what is experiential therapy? oi, they . Shiela Maitland: So experiential therapy is an overarching umbrella to all the action based therapies and it's eclectic. , the way I've been trained, it probably draws most heavily from psychodrama, but it also draws from emdr. It draws from somatic experiencing, and it [00:05:00] gives the experiential clinician many, many options to draw. I can use all the different trainings and be able to create something that is action based. Knowing some of the fundamentals to how to do it effectively, how to do it safely, and how to do it honorably. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And what are, what are some times where experiential therapy is just a great. Shiela Maitland: Well, I would say always , because even when I try something experiential to where it doesn't go well, or the client doesn't want to do it, it is so informing. Mm. . Mm-hmm. . It is so [00:06:00] helpful to me as the clinician to see where an enactment might stop because that can be so telling. Or if a client says no, maybe the most powerful thing that happens for their client in that session is my ability to honor their. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So could, I mean to make it a little bit more like tangible Yes. For, for the listeners out there. Yeah. Can you tell us about a time where traditional mentality gets you to a certain point? Yeah. But experiential helps you Yeah. To move beyond. Shiela Maitland: I would love that. So we all have our intake questions. and we read through them before the client comes in. We have a little sense for what's gonna happen, and I can [00:07:00] begin with that narrative. You know? So tell me why you're here. How can I support you today? Mm-hmm. , we begin to hear, and it's making me think about this client that. She had filled out all of her paperwork. Her mother had passed away of like while she was in her twenties. So I had in my mind this whole idea of what was gonna happen. Mm. Because I'm the therapist. you. The expert. The expert, right, wrong. And we could have gone the narrative route. and I could've guided and asked a lot of questions, but instead I took a basket full of scarves and I asked her how she was feeling and she said that she felt isolated. And so I asked her to pick a scarf to represent her isolation. [00:08:00] and she did. And then I asked her, where would you put this on you? And she took the whole scarf and put it over her head. Hmm. And I got her permission and said, can I interview you? Could you roll, reverse and become isolation? Dr. Harold Hong: Interesting. Well, like isolation itself. Shiela Maitland: and she said, yes. And then I said, and let's just pretend her name is Susie. Mm-hmm. . So she enrolled as Susie's Isolation. Mm-hmm. . And my first question to her was, so as Susie's isolation, when did you meet Susie? Well, and this is what was so shocking, because of course I thought it was gonna be when my mom died, but she said, I [00:09:00] met Susie in her crib. Oh, Justin Mclendon: interesting. Yeah. Shiela Maitland: Wow. I would've never gotten that. Mm-hmm. if we had gone the narrative route. Yeah. And tried to get something, which we eventually got there about her mom, but she had such a lived experience of isolation. Mm-hmm. that I would've missed. Dr. Harold Hong: This, this is like session one. Shiela Maitland: Session one. That is so powerful. First 15 minutes of session one. Yeah. By the way. And then I'm thinking, well this is cuz she's in her twenties and she doesn't have all that garbage running around in her brain. Mm-hmm. , right. But yeah, she was phenomenal to work with , Dr. Harold Hong: that, that's just mind blowing to, because I gotta say like most traditional in my experience with my peers in traditional therapy, like it would be an achievement. To get to that depth of insight. Yeah. Maybe [00:10:00] six, 12 months later. Right, Shiela Maitland: right. Absolutely. Well, it, yeah. They don't all go like that . Sure. But that was, it took my breath away. It, it supports me relying on the tools rather than what I think I know. Mm-hmm. , because the client will. share something that I had no, no idea was coming. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: yeah. You know, and I, I would imagine, and I don't know, right, because I, as a clinician have not done a lot of, I barely any experiential therapy. I've, I've seen a lot of it, but as a practitioner, that's just not my, that's not my modality. Closest thing would be some gestalt type stuff. Yeah. , but I can't imagine because I, I've always thought that, you know, just one of the limits, I guess to just kind of traditional talk therapy, regardless of what modality you're using is, is exactly that, that you're kind of, you're talking and you're limited to, like the [00:11:00] things that you are aware of or the insights that you can develop to through, you know, cognition. Right? Yeah. But I just imagine the experiential, the physical piece of it probably just brings a whole new element to the, to the game, so to speak. Right. . Shiela Maitland: Absolutely. And it also accesses the other side of the brain. Mm-hmm. the part of the brain that does have all the feelings, and that is where the memory is. Mm-hmm. . And it's so different, like, you know, to hear the client who can narrate their story of abuse and rattle it off like they're rattling off. Chick-fil-A order. Sure. Hmm. And then learning some techniques to help them tell their story in a different way in some action that connects to [00:12:00] that part, to then heal that part, not the narrative. Th there's no healing required there. Right. But the locked away part, the part that might drive them to ward off relationship, or the part of them that might encourage them to medicate. Mm-hmm. to unlock that part is. What I think experiential therapy does so gently and profoundly. Justin Mclendon: That's awesome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It's very cool. Yeah. I'm excited. I feel like I should do some experiential therapy. . Yay, . Shiela Maitland: We would love Justin Mclendon: that. I would too actually. Yeah. We should we should Dr. Harold Hong: set that up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's a a book came out a few years ago called The Extended. Yeah. I dunno if you've heard about this, but what you're talking about brings that [00:13:00] to my mind. Yeah. Uh, So the, the extent in mind, it's talking about breaking this illusion that the brain is a computer. Mm. Right. The brain is not a computer like we, we are, we are living beings. Yeah. Who ex exist across time. And we have senses and those senses influence our thoughts and our thoughts influence our feelings and our feeling. influence our senses. Yeah. And so I, I'll say having done experiential therapy and similar to, to your path is going to onsite and experiencing ex psychodrama. Mm-hmm. It, it took me to depths of insight that I didn't even imagine were possible. , and I think it, it, it, a lot of it had to do with using my whole body, like picking up the scarves and the, all the [00:14:00] fabrics. Right. Some of them are satin, some of them are coarse. Yep. You have burlaps, you have silks, you have it all. And they smell a certain way. They feel a certain way and it, it stirs so much memory. Right. And, and, The depth and the engagement just goes to all the way, like very quickly. Mm-hmm. . So it's a very powerful way of interacting with people. But I gotta say, I felt so skeptical. Yeah. my biggest fear, like on the plane to now, it's that just outside of Nashville in Cumberland. First my biggest fear was I would just be so embarrassed. Right. doing the psychodrama. Do people talk to you about this anticipatory embarrassment of psycho drama? Because it seems quite corny or quite right, you know, like Right. Forced in some ways. Yeah. So how do people get over that? Shiela Maitland: I think having the permission to stop at any point [00:15:00] is one way. that you don't have to do anything that you don't wanna do. And so often starting small and a small piece of work like, so that, that story that I shared about the woman with the scarf mm-hmm. and isolation, I mean, the actual time that she had that scarf over her head, you know, that might've lasted. Five to 10 minutes. And then the rest of the time we didn't continue with the scarf over her head. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But it was a snippet. It was a vignette, it was a little piece to then make it safer to do more. And then the introduction of, you know, of course she came into one of my groups, okay. Mm-hmm. . And it was so easy for her to trust me. and to trust the process. And [00:16:00] usually we don't start with a giant psychodrama. We start with joining. We start with creating safety in the group. We start with the soci geometry or the how is it that we know each other and how are we connected and the reduction of. Anxiety and tension naturally increases our spontaneity and our ability to maybe do something. that I didn't think I could do 30 minutes ago. Mm-hmm. , because I feel safer. I don't even know the words to define why, when I saw that 30 minutes ago, like, hell no, . But now I'm doing it. Now I'm doing something that is new to me and I'm curious about it, and I have permission [00:17:00] to stop and yeah. . Hmm. So, yeah, that's, that's what I would say about that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Interesting. I mean, what I hear, what, what, what stirs in me when you, I hear you say those words, Shah, is there's freedom in safety. Yeah. But we're a lot of people who are going into these treatment environments because they grew up in dangerous environments. Like where you, you have to feel emotional. and there's nothing you could do about it. Yep. So it's such a big leap to tell people you have the right to be safe. Mm-hmm. Shiela Maitland: Well, and I think all of that comes online pretty quickly when you go somewhere. , whether it's a place like onsite, whether it's coming here to new waters, [00:18:00] when you're asked to let go of your medicating, and then when you have to give up that phone mm-hmm. very quickly we begin to reconnect relationally. We have to, we have to ask somebody. to know where the bathroom is. We have to ask somebody, what are we doing next? What's the schedule? I don't have a phone. I don't know. I'm, I'm like this awkward human being. Mm-hmm. , who maybe 24 hours ago was stacked in all the work that I have to complete or. medicating in some other way, and now all of a sudden I'm a lot more raw. I'm a lot more vulnerable, and I'm forced to connect, which I [00:19:00] think makes it idea ideal for people to then. consider trying new things. There's, it's difficult to hide for more than 24 or 48 hours when you have nothing to hide behind. Right? Right. And so being told that you can say no, and that observation is participation. . Well, good. Because in the beginning I might just need to watch a few times and judge the hell out of everything. Right. Which is me. Yeah. Until I felt safe enough to not judge and mm-hmm. and to be accepted to take a risk and not have everybody. look at me like I had two heads, but in fact nod their head and like I'm part of the group. Yeah. [00:20:00] Dr. Harold Hong: Healing. Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I'll say like, I, in full disclosure, I, I actually am a student of Sheila's. I'm in the relationship experiential training process with Sheila at the R e c and I would say, Sheila, one thing about you. when you talk about safety. Yeah. You, my impression of you is, you know what you're doing. Mm-hmm. And you take it very seriously. And so that takes great skill, right? To, to convince people or to be a credible exponent of safety. Cuz I've, I've certainly seen others who will say like, you're safe. Don't worry about it. . . And immediately you feel Yeah. In danger. But all this is to say that I, I think every, every kind of therapist, especially early in their career a question in the back of their mind is, how do I develop this skill? Yeah. To be this kind of therapist? And I think experiential, given that it's so non-linear it seems like a very [00:21:00] daunting skill to develop. Mm. So I would love to hear a little bit about your history and your. And going from this graduate student to a trainer. Shiela Maitland: Well, thank you Dr. Hong. And thank you for the plug . I love that you're in the training group. That's really means a lot. So the truth is I've learned about it by making a lot of mistakes. And so often, even in the mistake, something profound has happened. Hmm. And for me, that helps me. I really have a faith that is guiding me, that's beyond what I could ever come up with, thank God, because I can't take the courage, nor can I take the. , absolutely. And trying to teach clinicians [00:22:00] about that fine line in being less central in the room. But my job is to do everything in my power to keep it safe. And I think how I've learned the most about that is, Learning what feels safe for me and finding safety in my own body and in my own recovery, first and foremost. And then experiencing when a client is brave enough to say that they don't feel safe, or they feel as if I've run over them. Mm-hmm. and to not. tell them they're wrong, which is what of course I want to do. You're just misunderstanding it. You're, yeah. . They're feeling what they're feeling and to adopt, [00:23:00] even if everything in my body is saying defend, it's to try to be curious. Mm-hmm. , you know, tell me where that happened, at what moment I really hear and I believe, how scared you are right now. I'm tracking with you right here and now. Wow. That that is what I've seen and learned as to what helps somebody come back online or what helps to regain the safety. . I've also had to own in a group when I've violated our own guidelines, you know, when I've made it unsafe. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. When I haven't managed the time. That's a really good example of violating or making a group unsafe. [00:24:00] And I know lots of therapists. , and I've been one of them who have thought that if I extend my session a few minutes that my clients will like me more. Mm-hmm. . But I've had a few of them get upset. Right. Because they were going somewhere or doing something like as though I could pad the deck mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and get them to light. I don't know. Mm-hmm. , it's such an example of where. I can own when I have done something to make the group less safe or I've gotten out of alignment to the guidelines. Yeah. And that, that seems to really help in the course correction. Mm-hmm. , I think another way as a therapist that I've learned about that is, when in [00:25:00] my groups, one of the guidelines is, of course you have the right to pass. And when I have heard somebody say they want to pass, but then I've gone after 'em, Ooh, big mistake. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And really, again, feeling so defensive about why I did it. When in fact I broke the guidelines, right? Mm-hmm. , and what I've learned is that when somebody wants to pass, it's really a test. It's not only a test for me, but it's also a test as to whether or not, cuz sometimes a group will encourage, right, nudge, put pressure and am I gonna keep it safe? Mm-hmm. , that is another place I think that then makes a. When they see the safety, feel, the safety, they drop into more truth telling. Dr. Harold Hong: [00:26:00] Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You know, that's interesting. And I, I love that concept. And I can, you know, I'm just relating here because, you know, I think as a, as a greener version of myself as a therapist, you know, there was those times where I, I really valued like, You know, we're gonna push this person to be vulnerable. Right? Like, they don't know what's best for them. We're gonna push them to be vulnerable. Yeah. And I remember exact situations where it's like, well, maybe we shouldn't have done that. You know? Right. That really blew up. Yeah, absolutely. But they need, yeah, but they need it. Right? We know best. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But she was saying, , you have to have those moments. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. In order to grow, I think. Right. And to know how to, you know, provide a space where people can get the healing that they need in a more effective way, I think. Right. We gotta, yeah. We gotta fall down before Dr. Harold Hong: we can Right. Run. I, I, I was, I was not expecting that answer. She, when you, when, when you, when I asked you, how did you get this go? I thought you were gonna say it was like, these experts, these trainings. Oh [00:27:00] my God. These books . But you're saying it's mistakes and. or spirituality. I love that. But I would also say, I mean, as, as someone coming from the medical side where mistakes are not allowed Hmm. Even though they happen all the time. Right. And let's talk about that another day. Okay. Okay. It's terrifying. Yeah. To make a mistake and the, there's immediately. Right. I, if you're an intern, you're a resident in training at like a high expectations institution, they will ask you things like, what's wrong with you? Mm-hmm. , like, why did you make this mistake? And it's terrifying. And that terror inspires you or motivates you to do it better the next time you're there. But it's, it's very fear-based, right? But I, I think it's a huge impairment to our. Right. That we can't face our mistakes and we can't reflect on them. We just have to avoid them. So I mean, the, the wisdom that you bring to this is tremendous. But also [00:28:00] it, it talks a lot about what you began with, which is doing that work for yourself. Yeah. Right. To fight through and be free of that shame. Right. To not be encumbered by it. Shiela Maitland: Well, and to continue. Yes. You know, like, not done. Right. Continue. You know, I continue because I. I, I believe in the parallel process, and I'm also an advocate of, yes, do lots of trainings and read lots of books, and I think it's that vulnerability and the ownership that is, Well, mm. I I can't expect others to be vulnerable and own stuff if I'm not also mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, this has been such a, a special time to hear [00:29:00] and spend this conversation with you, Sheila. I hope we you'll Shiela Maitland: come back. Absolutely. Thank you for, it's for having me, Dr. Hong. Thank you Justin. My absolute pleasure having you. Thank you. New waters. Yeah. I love what you guys are doing. Thank you. Thank Justin Mclendon: you. Thank you, Shuah. Likewise. Dr. Harold Hong: And thanks. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Guiding New Waters. Shiela Maitland: My pleasure.

In this episode, they speak with Sheila Maitland, a renowned therapist, about her career in psychotherapy and the role of experiential therapy in helping people heal. Sheila shares her journey of how she got into psychotherapy and how her experience in recovery and group therapy led her to graduate school and eventually starting her own practice, the Relationship Enhancement Center (REC). Sheila explains what experiential therapy is and how it draws from various therapies to create an action-based approach to healing. Through personal anecdotes, Sheila showcases the power of experiential therapy and how it can help clients move beyond traditional mentalities to find healing. Join Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McLendon as they explore the world of psychotherapy and learn from the best in the field on "Guiding New Waters." Shiela Maitland Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/ (https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/) Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/ (https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/) Website: https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com (https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com/)