In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. < Back to Episodes Recovery, Boundaries, and a Sense of Humor: Roxanne McDonald’s Approach 30:24 min | Roxanne McDonald | Finding New Waters In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. With over two decades of experience in the recovery field—and 24 years of continuous sobriety—Roxanne brings humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom to every conversation. She shares how laughter has become a bridge to healing in her coaching work, especially when addressing complex issues like ADHD, substance use, and family dynamics. From her time working in jails and treatment centers to her private practice today, Roxanne offers practical insights into boundaries, emotional regulation, and how families can support recovery without enabling. Subscribe “Whether you’re sober curious or deep in recovery, the goal is to create a life worth staying sober for.” – Roxanne McDonald Show Notes In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. With over two decades of experience in the recovery field—and 24 years of continuous sobriety—Roxanne brings humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom to every conversation. She shares how laughter has become a bridge to healing in her coaching work, especially when addressing complex issues like ADHD, substance use, and family dynamics. From her time working in jails and treatment centers to her private practice today, Roxanne offers practical insights into boundaries, emotional regulation, and how families can support recovery without enabling. ⸻ Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Roxanne McDonald and learn how humor plays into healing • [03:00] Recovery Coaching vs. Therapy – What makes coaching unique and highly effective • [07:00] The Link Between ADHD & Addiction – Why it’s often overlooked and misunderstood • [12:00] Supporting Families – Boundaries, communication, and reclaiming your life • [18:00] Roxanne’s Journey Through Recovery – From addiction to advocate to entrepreneur • [24:00] Why Humor Works in Recovery – Comedy as a tool to build connection and reduce shame • [30:00] Advice for Parents & Loved Ones – The small things that make a big difference • [35:00] How to Connect – Working with Roxanne, online or in-person ⸻ Key Points Discussed: 1. Lived Experience Matters – Why being in recovery herself makes Roxanne’s coaching deeply effective 2. Working with Dual Diagnosis Clients – The importance of recognizing co-occurring conditions like ADHD 3. The Role of the Family – How family coaching rebuilds trust and promotes healthy boundaries 4. Humor as a Healing Tool – How laughter helps reduce resistance, stigma, and shame in recovery conversations 5. Rebuilding Lives Together – Creating environments where both individuals and families can thrive ⸻ Guest Bio: Roxanne McDonald, CADC-R, NCRC-II, NCIP-I Recovery Coach, Family Coach, Interventionist, Former Drug & Alcohol Counselor Roxanne McDonald is the founder of Recovery Resiliency Services, with over 24 years of personal sobriety and professional experience helping individuals and families affected by substance use disorder. She is a certified recovery coach, interventionist, former drug and alcohol counselor, and former Guardian ad Litem for the North Carolina court system. Roxanne specializes in working with high-risk, dual-diagnosis clients and their families—supporting them through coaching, case management, and recovery-focused comedy events. Her approach blends motivational interviewing, active listening, and an ability to break down walls using compassion and laughter. 📞 Call: (704) 292-8309 🌐 Website: https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com(https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com/) 🌐 Recovery Resiliency Services: https://www.recoveryresiliency.com(https://www.recoveryresiliency.com/) ⸻ Resources Mentioned: • RoxanneRecoveryCoach.com: https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com(https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com/) • Recovery Resiliency Website: https://www.recoveryresiliency.com(https://www.recoveryresiliency.com/) • 12-Step Meeting Finder: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) • Circle of Security Parenting: https://circleofsecurityinternational.com(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) ⸻ Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ⸻ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #RoxanneMcDonald #RecoveryResiliency #RecoveryCoaching #ADHDandAddiction #FamilySupport #RecoveryComedy #FindingNewWatersPodcast ⸻ Powerful Quote: “Whether you’re sober curious or deep in recovery, the goal is to create a life worth staying sober for.” – Roxanne McDonald

Tue, Apr 09 Test Hybrid Events / Raleigh Convention Center Details Apr 09, 2024, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM Raleigh Convention Center, 500 S Salisbury St, Raleigh, NC 27601, USA +3 more Tue, Apr 11 Advanced Insights into Medical Detox: Exploring Current Research and Methods with Dr. Harold Hong / Webniar Details Apr 11, 2023, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM EDT Webniar Are you a medical professional looking to stay ahead of the curve in medical detox? Get ready for an exclusive webinar featuring Dr. Harold Hong from New Waters Recovery! Join us to explore cutting-edge research and innovative methods that are shaping the future of medical detoxification. See All Sun, Apr 09 Test Hybrid Virtual / Virtual Event Details Apr 09, 2023, 7:00 PM EDT – Apr 10, 2023, 7:00 PM EDT Virtual Event See All Tue, Apr 04 Workshop | Understanding Patient Care / Webinar Details Apr 04, 2023, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM EDT Webinar Unlock the secrets of providing exceptional patient care in a medical detox center - join us for our upcoming webinar! See All Sun, Mar 26 test zoom live / virtual event Details Mar 26, 2023, 4:10 AM – 5:00 AM EDT virtual event See All

In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Corey Davis, founder of SOBA Golf, a wellness company focused on the intersection of sobriety and golf. < Back to Episodes Sober Golf & Recovery: Corey Davis on Building a New Community 37:53 min | Corey Davis | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Corey Davis, founder of SOBA Golf, a wellness company focused on the intersection of sobriety and golf. Corey shares his personal recovery journey, getting sober at 22, and how golf became a tool for mindfulness, connection, and growth. He discusses the challenges of re-entering social spaces like golf courses in early recovery, the stigma of sobriety in sports, and how SOBA Golf is creating a network for people seeking both wellness and competition. Whether you’re new to the game or a seasoned player, this episode highlights the power of community, patience, and personal transformation in sobriety. Subscribe “Golf and sobriety teach the same lessons—humility, patience, and discipline.” – Corey Davis Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Corey Davis, founder of SOBA Golf, a wellness company focused on the intersection of sobriety and golf. Corey shares his personal recovery journey, getting sober at 22, and how golf became a tool for mindfulness, connection, and growth. He discusses the challenges of re-entering social spaces like golf courses in early recovery, the stigma of sobriety in sports, and how SOBA Golf is creating a network for people seeking both wellness and competition. Whether you’re new to the game or a seasoned player, this episode highlights the power of community, patience, and personal transformation in sobriety. ⸻ Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Corey Davis and learn about SOBA Golf. • [03:00] How Sobriety Led to Golf – Corey’s journey from addiction to the fairway. • [07:00] The Mindfulness of Golf – How the game teaches patience, humility, and focus. • [12:00] The Challenges of Playing Golf Sober – Overcoming the drinking culture in golf. • [18:00] Building SOBA Golf – Creating a recovery-based golf community. • [24:00] Lessons from the Game – Why golf mirrors life and recovery so closely. • [30:00] The Importance of Community – How connection helps people sustain long-term sobriety. • [36:00] How to Get Involved – Finding events, retreats, and digital resources. ⸻ Key Points Discussed: 1. Golf as a Tool for Recovery – How the game helps build discipline, patience, and self-awareness. 2. Changing the Culture – Why SOBA Golf is breaking the stigma of sobriety in sports. 3. The Power of Humility – Learning to start from scratch, both in recovery and on the course. 4. The Importance of Community – How surrounding yourself with like-minded people strengthens sobriety. 5. Building a Future in Recovery – Finding new passions and healthy outlets after getting sober. ⸻ Guest Bio: Corey Davis Founder of SOBA Golf | Recovery Advocate Corey Davis is the founder of SOBA Golf, a wellness company dedicated to supporting sober golfers and changing the way people view sobriety in sports. After getting sober at 22, Corey found golf to be a powerful tool for discipline, connection, and personal growth. Through SOBA Golf, he is building a nationwide community of sober athletes who love the game while supporting each other in their recovery journeys. Learn more: https://www.soba.golf(https://www.soba.golf/) ⸻ Resources Mentioned: • SOBA Golf Website: https://www.soba.golf(https://www.soba.golf/) • SOBA Golf Community Discord: https://www.soba.golf/join(https://www.soba.golf/join) • Find a 12-Step Meeting: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) • Arizona Recovery Open Event: https://www.arizonaopen.com(https://www.arizonaopen.com/) ⸻ Follow SOBA Golf: • Instagram: @soba.golf(http://soba.golf/) • Facebook: SOBA Golf Community • YouTube: @sobagolf ⸻ Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ⸻ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #SOBAgolf #SoberGolf #MindfulGolf #AddictionRecovery #FindingNewWatersPodcast #GolfAndSobriety #RecoveryThroughGolf

Upcoming Events Tue, Apr 09 Test Hybrid Events / Raleigh Convention Center Details Apr 09, 2024, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM Raleigh Convention Center, 500 S Salisbury St, Raleigh, NC 27601, USA Tue, Apr 11 Advanced Insights into Medical Detox: Exploring Current Research and Methods with Dr. Harold Hong / Webniar Details Apr 11, 2023, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM EDT Webniar Are you a medical professional looking to stay ahead of the curve in medical detox? Get ready for an exclusive webinar featuring Dr. Harold Hong from New Waters Recovery! Join us to explore cutting-edge research and innovative methods that are shaping the future of medical detoxification. Sun, Apr 09 Test Hybrid Virtual / Virtual Event Details Apr 09, 2023, 7:00 PM EDT – Apr 10, 2023, 7:00 PM EDT Virtual Event Tue, Apr 04 Workshop | Understanding Patient Care / Webinar Details Apr 04, 2023, 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM EDT Webinar Unlock the secrets of providing exceptional patient care in a medical detox center - join us for our upcoming webinar! Sun, Mar 26 test zoom live / virtual event Details Mar 26, 2023, 4:10 AM – 5:00 AM EDT virtual event

In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. < Back to Episodes Mindfulness, Recovery, and Purpose: A Conversation with Delvin Kenion 40:47 min | Delvin Kenion | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Delvin Kenion, Program Director at Abaya Wellness, to discuss the power of mindfulness, recovery coaching, and building a life of purpose. Delvin shares his personal journey, the lessons he's learned through recovery, and the innovative approaches Abaya Wellness takes to holistic healing. From structured daily routines to the importance of vulnerability in group settings, Delvin offers invaluable insights into what it takes to sustain long-term recovery and personal growth. Subscribe "Mindfulness isn’t about changing who you are—it’s about becoming aware of yourself, so you can grow into who you’re meant to be." – Delvin Kenion Show Notes In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Delvin Kenion, Program Director at Abaya Wellness, to discuss the power of mindfulness, recovery coaching, and building a life of purpose. Delvin shares his personal journey, the lessons he's learned through recovery, and the innovative approaches Abaya Wellness takes to holistic healing. From structured daily routines to the importance of vulnerability in group settings, Delvin offers invaluable insights into what it takes to sustain long-term recovery and personal growth. --- ### **Timestamps:** - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming Delvin Kenion and discussing his role at Abaya Wellness. - **[03:00] The Power of Energy and Mindset**: How Delvin cultivates a positive, grounded presence. - **[06:00] What is Mindfulness?**: A simple, practical definition and why it matters in recovery. - **[09:00] Gender-Specific Treatment**: Why separating treatment by gender can improve healing. - **[13:00] Holistic Healing at Abaya Wellness**: From yoga to equine therapy, creating a well-rounded program. - **[17:00] Recovery Coaching vs. Therapy**: Understanding the unique role of a recovery coach. - **[22:00] The Role of Structure in Recovery**: Why a solid morning routine and consistency are game-changers. - **[27:00] Building a Support Network**: How Abaya helps clients create connections that last. - **[30:00] Delvin’s Personal Recovery Journey**: The lessons he’s learned along the way. - **[36:00] Closing Thoughts & How to Connect**: Where to find Delvin and Abaya Wellness. --- ### **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **Mindfulness as a Tool for Self-Awareness**: How recognizing emotions and thought patterns can lead to real change. 2. **The Importance of Vulnerability in Recovery**: Why creating safe spaces for open discussion is critical. 3. **Holistic Approaches to Healing**: Using mindfulness, therapy, movement, and community to achieve long-term recovery. 4. **The Value of Recovery Coaching**: How having a guide outside of therapy sessions can prevent relapse. 5. **Personal Growth and Purpose**: Why structure, accountability, and a sense of mission help people stay sober. --- ### **Guest Bio:** **Delvin Kenion** **Program Director, Abaya Wellness** Delvin Kenion is the Program Director at Abaya Wellness in Durham, NC. With years of experience in behavioral health and addiction treatment, Delvin brings a unique blend of personal recovery experience, mindfulness-based therapy, and recovery coaching to his work. Passionate about helping others find peace, structure, and purpose, Delvin is a leader in the field of holistic addiction treatment and personal transformation. --- ### **Resources Mentioned:** - **Abaya Wellness Website:** [https://www.abayawellness.com](https://www.abayawellness.com) - **Email Contact:** info@abayawellness.com(mailto:info@abayawellness.com) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** [https://www.aa.org](https://www.aa.org) --- ### **Follow Us:** - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### **Watch & Listen:** - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) --- #DelvinKenion #MindfulnessInRecovery #HolisticHealing #RecoveryCoaching #FindingNewWatersPodcast #AbayaWellness #MentalHealthAwareness

In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Chris Budnick, Executive Director at Healing Transitions, delves into the heart of addiction recovery. His unique insights, rooted in both personal and professional experiences, offer a captivating look into the challenges and triumphs of overcoming addiction. Join us for an inspiring journey of resilience and healing with Chris Budnick. < Back to Episodes Finding Peace in Nature: A Conversation with Jonas Coatsworth 39:01 min | Jonas Coatsworth | Finding New Waters In this reflective episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with W. Jonas Coatsworth, a seasoned psychologist and recovery advocate with over a decade of experience helping individuals overcome addiction. Jonas shares the transformative power of nature and quiet moments in the recovery process, discussing the importance of finding one’s center and matching individuals to the appropriate level of care. He emphasizes the role of environment in healing and how stepping away from daily distractions allows for deep reflection and sustainable change. Listen as Jonas offers insights into his work and the profound impact of creating restorative spaces for recovery. Subscribe "It’s in the quiet moments, away from distractions, where individuals find their center and start building their path to recovery." -Jonas Coatworth Show Notes In this reflective episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with W. Jonas Coatsworth, a seasoned psychologist and recovery advocate with over a decade of experience helping individuals overcome addiction. Jonas shares the transformative power of nature and quiet moments in the recovery process, discussing the importance of finding one’s center and matching individuals to the appropriate level of care. He emphasizes the role of environment in healing and how stepping away from daily distractions allows for deep reflection and sustainable change. Listen as Jonas offers insights into his work and the profound impact of creating restorative spaces for recovery. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction: Welcome and episode overview. • [01:00] Meet Jonas Coatsworth: Jonas introduces his background and passion for recovery. • [04:00] The Healing Power of Nature: How nature and quiet environments foster emotional and spiritual restoration in recovery. • [08:00] Matching Care Levels: Jonas discusses the importance of tailoring treatment to meet each individual’s unique needs. • [12:00] Long-Term Sobriety Strategies: Why early stabilization and distraction-free environments are critical for sustainable recovery. • [18:00] The Role of Domestic Factors in Recovery: Challenges women face with familial dynamics and how these impact their journey. • [24:00] Finding Common Ground: How individuals can connect with themselves and their surroundings to aid the recovery process. • [30:00] Closing Thoughts: Jonas shares final advice for listeners and resources for support. Key Points Discussed: 1. Nature’s Role in Healing: How quiet, restorative environments help individuals find their center and build emotional resilience. 2. Tailored Treatment Plans: The importance of matching each individual to the right level of care for their recovery journey. 3. Early Recovery Focus: Why distraction-free stabilization is crucial for building a strong foundation for long-term sobriety. 4. Domestic Challenges in Recovery: Addressing family-related issues that often accompany addiction and influence treatment outcomes. 5. Creating Restorative Spaces: Jonas’s philosophy on providing environments that encourage reflection, growth, and personal peace. Guest Bio: W. Jonas Coatsworth Psychologist and Recovery Advocate Jonas Coatsworth holds a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from the College of Charleston and a Master of Arts in Psychology from The Citadel Graduate College. With over a decade of experience working with recovery programs and opioid addiction, Jonas has dedicated his career to supporting individuals on their journey to healing. His approach integrates a deep understanding of mental health with a passion for creating restorative spaces that empower individuals to overcome addiction and find peace. Resources Mentioned: • Contact Jonas Coatsworth :https://hammocksrecovery.com/about-us/jonas-coatsworth/ Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share • Google Podcast:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. SEO Hashtags: #AddictionRecovery #NatureHealing #MentalHealthSupport #FindingPeace #JonasCoatsworth #FindingNewWatersPodcast #PersonalGrowth #TailoredRecovery

Check out our latest episodes from Finding New Waters. New episode every week. Episodes Browse Our Episodes Explore and browse our collections of experts, personal stories and resources. Search for an Episode From the NFL to Redemption: Jeff Hatch’s Recovery Story In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Jeff Hatch — a former NFL player turned recovery advocate — for an unflinchingly honest and deeply redemptive conversation. Jeff shares his remarkable journey from playing for the New York Giants to battling addiction, relapsing, and ultimately rebuilding a meaningful life in long-term recovery. With raw insight and humility, Jeff opens up about the weight of secrets, the darkness of relapse, and the spiritual clarity he found through surrender. Jeff’s path has taken him from the NFL to a federal investigation — and now, to a leadership role in recovery at Eagle Creek Ranch. Whether you’re in recovery or just need to hear a story of hope, redemption, and true transformation, this episode is for you. From Family Business to Recovery Work with Steve Lee Yoga, Intuition, and the Sacred Work of Tuning In with Andrea Boyd In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. Drawing from her decades of teaching and personal experience, Andrea shares insight into self-governance, plant-based living, spiritual sovereignty, and the power of stillness in a noisy world. Whether you’re curious about yoga or on your own journey of recovery and transformation, this episode offers grounding truths and a deep sense of possibility. From Nightclubs to Recovery: Andrew Maloof on Showing Up and Staying Sober In this episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Andrew Maloof, co-founder and CEO of Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery in Boise, Idaho. Andrew reflects on his 12 years of sobriety, his journey from working in Las Vegas nightclubs to owning a treatment center, and how a moment of spiritual surrender changed everything. Together, they dive into what makes treatment effective, why hospitality and connection matter in recovery, and the power of simply showing up. Clean Living, Honest Recovery: Meredith Brierly on Sobriety, Wellness, and Motherhood In this empowering episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Meredith Brierly—also known online as Clean Coaching Mama—to explore the transformative power of sober living, holistic wellness, and motherhood. Meredith shares her raw and relatable journey through anxiety, addiction, and recovery in New York, to becoming a health coach and leading voice in clean, mindful parenting. With 13 years of sobriety, she now helps others live low-tox, purpose-driven lives grounded in recovery principles. Whether you’re a parent, in recovery, or simply seeking healthier habits, Meredith’s story offers inspiration and practical takeaways for living well without obsession or perfection. Finding Joy in Sobriety: Dylan Starrs on Purpose, Relapse, and Building a Life That Lasts In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. He shares how he stopped “auditing” recovery and finally put real sweat equity into his sobriety—through mentorship, structure, and showing up every day for his community. Dylan also reflects on music, golf, grief, purpose, and what it really means to stay connected to your own recovery while leading others through theirs. How Addiction, Recovery, and a PHD Built a New Life with Dr. Zach Miller In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. He opens up about the hard truths of early addiction, how structure and accountability helped him thrive, and the lessons he’s learned as a treatment provider and researcher. We also explore his dissertation, which revealed a surprising link between health insurance type and opioid overdose risk. Rethinking Recovery: Community, Connection, and the Power of Hope In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Ross Ellenhorn, Ph.D., a social psychiatrist, author, and founder of Ellenhorn—one of the most innovative community-based mental health programs in the country. Ross shares powerful insights on why traditional models of treatment often fail those in deep psychiatric distress, and how purpose, social value, and human connection play a vital role in true recovery. Why Long-Term Sobriety Requires Real Accountability with Nate Faulkenberry In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Nate Faulkenberry, owner and operator of Doc’s Place, a long-term recovery program for men in Brunswick, Georgia. Nate shares his powerful personal story of going from client to leader at Doc’s Place, and how the structure, accountability, and 12-step immersion of the program helped him—and now helps others—build lasting recovery. Beyond the Intervention: Alexis Haines on Family Systems, Mental Health & Crisis Care In this insightful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with **Alexis Haines**, Director of Business Development at **Crisis Case Management (CCM)**. Alexis unpacks the complexity of true intervention work—far beyond the TV dramatizations—and shares how CCM approaches healing through comprehensive case management, family systems support, and long-term planning. Meeting People Where They Are: Lindsey Humphreys on Recovery Access & Innovation In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with **Lindsey Humphreys**, founder of Illuminate North Carolina and Bob’s Way Recovery Center. Lindsey shares her journey from public service to recovery advocacy and talks about the powerful legacy of her grandfather, Bob Goodell—a pioneer in the local recovery community. She breaks down the work Illuminate NC is doing across harm reduction, sober companionship, and rural outreach through Bob’s Way, a new peer-run center providing low-barrier support in underserved Vance County. Long-Term Recovery for Chronic Relapsers: Inside Burning Tree Ranch In this episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Brook McKenzie, CEO of Burning Tree Programs. Brook shares how Burning Tree Ranch is helping individuals and families navigate late-stage addiction through a true long-term recovery model. Focused on healing both behaviors and belief systems—not just removing substances—Burning Tree specializes in working with chronic relapsers who have struggled to find lasting change elsewhere. Brook discusses why time, structure, family involvement, and surrender are the keys to sustainable recovery. Recovery, Boundaries, and a Sense of Humor: Roxanne McDonald’s Approach In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. With over two decades of experience in the recovery field—and 24 years of continuous sobriety—Roxanne brings humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom to every conversation. She shares how laughter has become a bridge to healing in her coaching work, especially when addressing complex issues like ADHD, substance use, and family dynamics. From her time working in jails and treatment centers to her private practice today, Roxanne offers practical insights into boundaries, emotional regulation, and how families can support recovery without enabling. Sober Golf & Recovery: Corey Davis on Building a New Community In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Corey Davis, founder of SOBA Golf, a wellness company focused on the intersection of sobriety and golf. Corey shares his personal recovery journey, getting sober at 22, and how golf became a tool for mindfulness, connection, and growth. He discusses the challenges of re-entering social spaces like golf courses in early recovery, the stigma of sobriety in sports, and how SOBA Golf is creating a network for people seeking both wellness and competition. Whether you’re new to the game or a seasoned player, this episode highlights the power of community, patience, and personal transformation in sobriety. Navigating High-Performance Pressure: Maren Landahl-Smidt on Athletes, Money & Mental Health In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Landahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. Maren shares her insights on how high-achieving individuals navigate identity, financial struggles, and transitions—especially when their careers take unexpected turns. From addiction to financial mismanagement, she explains how stress and pressure can push people toward unhealthy coping mechanisms. She also highlights the importance of financial literacy, emotional regulation, and preparing for the inevitable career transition that many athletes and professionals face. Breaking Free from Addiction and Staying Free with Fritz Deichert In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Fritz Deichert, a recovery coach and interventionist based in Dallas, Texas. Fritz shares his powerful story of addiction, recovery, and the difference between simply being sober and truly living in recovery. He discusses his work with young men struggling with addiction and failure to launch, emphasizing the importance of connection, structure, and meeting people where they are. With years of experience and a deep personal connection to his work, Fritz offers insights into what it really takes to sustain long-term recovery and personal transformation. Long-Term Recovery: David McNease on Healing, Growth, and Purpose In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. David shares his personal journey from addiction to sobriety and how his struggles led him to create a structured, long-term solution for young men facing substance use disorder and failure to launch. He discusses the importance of time in recovery, the power of community, and why real change happens when individuals are given the space to rebuild their lives. David’s insights offer valuable guidance for anyone navigating early recovery or supporting a loved one through the process. Turning Grief into Purpose: Dr. Liz Willers and the Goldfinch Foundation In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Dr. Elisabeth "Liz" Willers, a physician and the founder of the Goldfinch Foundation, created in honor of her late son, Owen. After losing Owen to an unintentional overdose, Dr. Willers channeled her grief into advocacy, working to change the culture around mental health and addiction among young people. She shares Owen’s story, the stigma surrounding mental health struggles, and how her foundation empowers teenagers to openly discuss their challenges. Through vulnerability, education, and the arts, the Goldfinch Foundation is helping to shift how we approach youth mental wellness and substance use awareness. Mindfulness, Recovery, and Purpose: A Conversation with Delvin Kenion In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Delvin Kenion, Program Director at Abaya Wellness, to discuss the power of mindfulness, recovery coaching, and building a life of purpose. Delvin shares his personal journey, the lessons he's learned through recovery, and the innovative approaches Abaya Wellness takes to holistic healing. From structured daily routines to the importance of vulnerability in group settings, Delvin offers invaluable insights into what it takes to sustain long-term recovery and personal growth. Sam Quinones: The Stories Behind America’s Drug Epidemic In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. From the rise of prescription painkillers and black tar heroin to the impact of fentanyl and methamphetamine, Sam highlights the systemic and personal forces driving addiction. This conversation is packed with insights into the power of storytelling, the importance of connection, and the role of hope in combating one of the most significant public health crises of our time. A Lifetime of Service: Gary Fisher’s Journey from Addiction to Leadership In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Gary Fisher, Director Emeritus at Cirque Lodge and a revered leader in the recovery field. Gary shares his journey from struggling with addiction to becoming an icon in the treatment community. With 38 years of sobriety, Gary offers profound insights into the power of 12-step recovery, the importance of grace and service, and the transformative lessons he’s learned over decades of helping others heal. This episode is a testament to the miracles of recovery, the beauty of community, and the lifelong impact of faith and selflessness. Building Impact: Adams Pritchard on Transforming Recovery in Alabama and Beyond In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we welcome Adams Pritchard, founder and CEO of Impact Recovery Center in Birmingham, Alabama. Adams shares his personal recovery story, which led him to create a unique, highly effective program centered on 12-step immersion and individualized clinical care. He discusses the challenges of modern treatment models, the importance of involving families in the recovery process, and the groundbreaking work being done at Impact Recovery. With a focus on efficiency, spiritual growth, and community engagement, Adams is changing the way addiction treatment is approached, making a lasting impact on both individuals and the broader recovery landscape. From the Ice Rink to Recovery: Tripp Tracy’s Journey of Resilience and Redemption In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. From personal anecdotes about his NHL career to the life-changing clarity he found in a New York hotel room, Tripp's story is a testament to the strength it takes to rebuild and redefine life. This is an episode about resilience, humility, and the incredible impact of recovery communities. Holistic Wellness: Utilizing the eight dimensions of wellness to build a fulfilling life in recovery In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Stephanie Hazard, a recovery coach specializing in substance use and eating disorders. Stephanie reflects on her personal recovery journey, including celebrating 25 years of sobriety, and shares her professional insights into recovery coaching as a bridge to long-term wellness. She discusses the intricate process of recovering from eating disorders, the importance of addressing trauma, and how integrating the eight dimensions of wellness can help individuals achieve sustainable recovery. Stephanie's expertise offers valuable guidance for anyone navigating the complexities of dual diagnoses or seeking a holistic approach to healing. Turning Loss into Action: Freida MacDonald on Finding Hope and Helping Others In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *Know Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. Freida’s powerful message underscores the value of meeting people where they are, breaking stigma, and staying connected to resources for long-term recovery.

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In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. < Back to Episodes From the Ice Rink to Recovery: Tripp Tracy’s Journey of Resilience and Redemption 48:31 min | Tripp Tracy | Finding New Waters In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. From personal anecdotes about his NHL career to the life-changing clarity he found in a New York hotel room, Tripp's story is a testament to the strength it takes to rebuild and redefine life. This is an episode about resilience, humility, and the incredible impact of recovery communities. Subscribe “Surrendering is not weakness. It’s the strongest thing you can do when you choose to rebuild your life.” - Tripp Tracy Show Notes In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. From personal anecdotes about his NHL career to the life-changing clarity he found in a New York hotel room, Tripp's story is a testament to the strength it takes to rebuild and redefine life. This is an episode about resilience, humility, and the incredible impact of recovery communities. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming Tripp Tracy and diving into his career as the voice of the Carolina Hurricanes. - **[03:00] Early Career and Personal Struggles**: Tripp reflects on his journey through the NHL and early signs of alcoholism. - **[08:00] The Turning Point**: The critical moment in a New York hotel room that changed everything. - **[12:00] Surrendering to Win**: Understanding the power of surrender and embracing a 12-step program. - **[18:00] Support Systems**: How friends, family, and fans played a role in Tripp’s recovery. - **[24:00] Life After Alcohol**: Adjusting to a sober lifestyle and embracing a new perspective. - **[30:00] Message to Younger Generations**: Tripp’s advice to young people navigating recovery and finding hope. - **[38:00] Closing Thoughts**: Gratitude, inspiration, and Tripp’s outlook on life in sobriety. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Surrendering to Win**: Tripp’s realization that surrender is a critical step toward recovery. 2. **The Role of Support Systems**: How unconditional love and understanding from those around him made all the difference. 3. **Progress, Not Perfection**: The importance of focusing on small, daily actions to maintain sobriety. 4. **Impacting Others**: Tripp’s passion for helping young people embrace recovery without enduring unnecessary consequences. 5. **A Life Rebuilt**: Tripp shares how sobriety has allowed him to live a meaningful, fulfilling life. --- ### Guest Bio: **Tripp Tracy** **Voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, Recovery Advocate** Tripp Tracy is best known as the voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, but beyond his storied broadcasting career lies an inspiring story of recovery and resilience. After battling alcoholism, Tripp found sobriety through a 12-step program and the unwavering support of his community. With over two years of sobriety, Tripp is passionate about sharing his story to inspire others, particularly young people, to embrace recovery. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Carolina Hurricanes Official Website:** https://www.nhl.com/hurricanes(https://www.nhl.com/hurricanes) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) - **Jamie Daniels Foundation:** https://jamiedanielsfoundation.org(https://jamiedanielsfoundation.org/) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook:** https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn:** https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok:** https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) - **Spotify:** https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) - **Apple Podcast:** https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music:** https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) - **Google Podcast:** https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=2) #CarolinaHurricanes #TrippTracy #SobrietyJourney #FindingNewWatersPodcast #AlcoholismRecovery #12StepProgram #HockeyAndRecovery

In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. < Back to Episodes The Healing Power of Long-Term Recovery and Family Involvement with Jared Murray 38:29 min | Jared Murray | Finding New Waters "Join us on Finding New Waters as we dive deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with expert Jared Murray from Momentum Recovery. Discover why traditional 28-day programs may fall short and how extended care, family involvement, and trauma-informed therapy can lead to lasting sobriety. Jared shares valuable insights into the importance of psychiatric care and gradual transitions for young adults on their recovery journeys. If you or someone you know is seeking a path to healing and sobriety, this episode offers hope and guidance. Tune in now for a transformative conversation!" Subscribe "If the whole family system is not recovering together, it's going to be really hard for their loved one to have a successful outcome." -Jared Murray Podcast Transcript Jared Murray.audioweb Jared Murray: [00:00:00] And those things are, are crucial. And for me, like getting sober when I was 20, like recovery had to become a lifestyle for me, right? Like it, it had to be something that I really could truly see myself living out each day and, and for the young men coming into our program, like recovery happens throughout the inner therapeutic groups and, you know, recovery happens in individual therapy growth happens in those, in those ways, like those things are crucial to the therapeutic process. Jared Murray: But where I see guys engage the most is when I see 20 of them running around on the softball field, smiling and laughing, having fun. You know what I mean? I couldn't remember the last time I laughed or smiled or had fun, you know what I mean? And when I was in treatment coming alive again in that way and experiencing stuff like that helped me see that hey, this is something, man, that I might not hate.[00:01:00] Jared Murray: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durgie, and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Jared Murray: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Ryan Jarrell: Hello, everyone. Welcome to finding new waters. I'm Ryan Gerald, continuing care coordinator. I'm sitting here with Justin McClendon, our executive director, and we have the privilege. Ryan Jarrell: Of talking to Jared Murray works in admissions and outreach at Momentum Recovery. Jared, welcome to Finding New Waters. Jared Murray: Absolutely, guys. Happy to be here. Excited to be on here with y'all. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah, this is this is really nice. Jared, you know, I know that we work together We, we work [00:02:00] together regularly and it's a really, it's a really wonderful experience to be able to to, to work with young men and, and get them kind of engaged on a path that I know personally, I think Justin knows personally and you do as well. Ryan Jarrell: I was really hoping that you would open up and, and talk a little bit about you know, how you found yourself in the industry and, and maybe how you found yourself in recovery yourself. Jared Murray: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I guess a little bit of background on me. I grew up in Huntsville, Alabama, so born and raised in Alabama. Jared Murray: I was hoping we would get on this podcast and just talk about Alabama football for an hour, but that's okay. We can talk about recovery instead. But yeah, man, I guess like a little bit about my story. A little bit of backstory, I guess, for me I grew up in a good family, had an older brother who I looked up to, had loving parents who poured unconditional love into me. Jared Murray: I had everything you could have ever asked for growing up. Of course, my family system had its own stuff in it every... Family system does. But somewhere [00:03:00] along the way through my experience, experiences growing up, like I did develop a negative belief system about myself, you know, and I was an athlete. Jared Murray: I thrived in sports. I did well academically. I did well in social groups. I could put on whatever mask I needed to put on to fit in with whatever group I needed to fit in with. However, I never fully felt comfortable with myself, you know? I never felt fully okay with me. There was always that kind of emptiness and that internal void. Jared Murray: That fear of not being good enough, fear of being alone. Fear of failure, fear of success, like I always struggled with that level of self centered fear that we talk about in recovery a lot. And as far back as I can remember, I've always kind of felt that way. And so I recall like the first time I ever tried any substances, I was probably about 13 years old. Jared Murray: And it was like all that fear went away, all that insecurity went away. I felt like I could be who I wanted to be, I felt like I could be who others wanted me to be. I, I'm someone who really likes connection from others. I like acceptance [00:04:00] from others. I like approval from others. And, and I seem to be able to find all those things through the lifestyle of using drugs, you know, and I found that out early on when I was really young. Jared Murray: And so my addiction really started at a young age. When I went into high school was when it really kind of started to really progress. That was when I was introduced to opiates and benzos and cocaine and certain substances, substances like that, that I really struggled with. And so, I got in a lot of legal trouble in high school got arrested quite a bit, skipping school, getting high before school, during school, after school, you know, my, my disease continued to progress throughout the later years of high school for me, and then I left Huntsville and went down to the University of Alabama, which was a phenomenal idea for the substance abuse problem I had coming out of high school. Jared Murray: You know, my parents, I talked to him about that decision and they're like, man, we were so ready for you to get out of our house. I think some denial on their part is that they did think that I would just somehow go to college and grow up and these things would just [00:05:00] Figure themselves out. But they desperately wanted me out of their house because of the unmanageability that was going on as a result of my addiction when I was living at home. Jared Murray: So I went down to Alabama basically got heavily addicted to Oxycontin down there and cocaine. Those were my two kind of constants. Was an IV drug user eventually and got into some pretty big legal trouble when I was 20 which is what drove me to go into treatment. So I got arrested with you know, about five. Jared Murray: Five felonies and two counts of two misdemeanors and one big arrest. I was living in the fraternity house at the time. And that's kind of what pulled me out of the University of Alabama and put me in treatment. And since then, I've been, I've been completely clean and sober since then. So January 29th, 2011 was, was when I went to treatment and that's my sobriety date. Jared Murray: So I went into this thing when I was 20 and... Man, it's been an incredible journey for almost the last 13 years. Ryan Jarrell: Jared, I think it's really interesting that you kind of got [00:06:00] springboarded. A lot of people think, you know, in a recovery setting that the only way we can enter it is when we have a full internal collapse. Ryan Jarrell: We've totally surrendered to the process. We have to be fully accepting of ourselves as alcoholics. And my guess is getting busted with the heroin at the frat house. That's maybe not mentally where you were at. Did you, was that your motivation initially? And did your motivation change over time during your treatment experience? Jared Murray: Yeah, I think that's a great question, Ryan. I think that ties into a lot of the things that even when I get to work with young men with you on that we try to talk to families about and guys about is that, hey you know, it's okay that you're not fully surrendered to the idea that you're an addict or an alcoholic. Jared Murray: It's okay that you don't... You know, fully see the true severe consequences of your substance use, right? What we try to do in this field as interventionists, treatment centers, professionals that do this work is try to help raise the bottom for young men and try to coach their families on helping them understand that you know, the, we put the shovel down when we stop digging, right? Jared Murray: It's, I didn't [00:07:00] have the rational ability to make a decision to go to treatment on my own. Like I had to be intervened on from that standpoint and I remember when I was getting arrested that day, like I was telling those police officers, I don't get it. I've been clean for two weeks, you know, and what's so crazy about that? Jared Murray: It's I believed that being delusional. I was at that point in time in my addiction and. Man, if it was left up to me, there was no way I was going to make a decision to go to treatment. Mm hmm. Like deep down, I wanted something different, right? And, and I was miserable and I was empty and, and all of those things, but the light bulb of recovery and surrender did not happen for me then, right? Jared Murray: Like it happened for me over the course of a long period of time. Ryan Jarrell: 100%. I mean, Justin, I know you have a lot of experience as a therapist. Yeah. Working with young people. Yeah. Yeah. How do people have these kind of motivation shifts and changes? Justin Mclendon: You know, I think there's, I mean, I mean, I think we all see it, right? Justin Mclendon: And we see it at so many different levels. Everybody's so [00:08:00] different. And I think, you know, sometimes we get lucky and we have people, whether they're young, whether they're middle aged, older we have some people that, you know, maybe they did, they did have that light switch kind of go off for them, right? Justin Mclendon: You know, they had a horrible experience or they just happen to wake up one day and they were just like, hey, I'm tired of living this way. And they, and then maybe they're stepping into that process with that motivation. But I think more times than not, people simply don't, right? They're just not at that place yet, or they're not, you know, maybe they have a little bit of motivation or they know that they need to make a change, but they're still not at the place to where we hope that they're going to get. Justin Mclendon: And, and as you were saying, Jared, I think it's, it's not it's not a prerequisite, right? I mean, it's not it's not required that somebody is, you know, fully on board or that they're fully accepting of, of where they're at in their life and their, and their substance use in order to take their first step towards change. Justin Mclendon: You know what I mean? And I think, you know, Jared, I know you do too. We have these conversations on what feels like a daily basis is. You know, we're not asking you to have that, right? We're just asking you to take one [00:09:00] step forward right now, and, and with the hopes that along that path you are going to come to believe some different things about yourself and what life needs to look like for you, you know? Ryan Jarrell: One hundred percent. I think purity of motivation, sometimes it's very difficult for parents or spouses of people that are involved in this, right? They don't just want the person to make the right action. But they wanted to make it for the right reason. And I think a lot of times the work is letting them know Hey, that may not be the case. Ryan Jarrell: That's just maybe not a realistic expectation. So one of my best friends, a real icon of mine in recovery, you know, he, he got sober and chose a sponsor because the sponsor had a nice watch. You know, he wasn't interested in What he had to say about God, you know, or how thorough kind of a fifth step was like He saw that guy had a nice watch and sobriety and he said I that's what I want Worked with that guy for a year, you know, right? Ryan Jarrell: Or yeah, and and especially when you're talking about young men, I mean sometimes it is It is listen, I see this guy and he's, he's dating a nice girl and he's going back to school and he's in sobriety and I never thought that would be me, you know? [00:10:00] And Jared, I think that's something that I see you when you're connecting with guys at Momentum. Ryan Jarrell: I think that's something that I see you trying to, trying to engage with them with. Could you talk a little bit about Momentum, the demographic that you guys serve and what you guys specialize Jared Murray: in? Yeah, I can, man. So yeah, I'm a minimum recovery. First off, we're based in Wilmington, North Carolina, and we work with 18 to 35 year old young adult men, primarily 18 to 30 year olds. Jared Murray: We occasionally get, you know, guys who are 30 to 35, depending on their situation and specializing in that age group, right? Kind of like what we're talking about. I think some of the biggest things that are so needed for the young men that we work with is they all come into our program. With this negative belief system about themselves and the world around them, you know, and and what we're trying to create for them is help them develop a positive belief system about themselves and the world around them. Jared Murray: And how we accomplish that is through helping them achieve and maintain healthy relationships and accomplish healthy relationships and establish connection. With themselves and [00:11:00] with others, you know, and really kind of how we go about helping them accomplish those goals is through the therapeutic approaches that we do, you know, and so when guys come to us, basically, we have. Jared Murray: A full continuum of care, right? That spread out over the course of, you know, 9 to 12 months. If someone was to do our full continuum when guys usually first initially get to us, they're going to start in our first phase, right? Like, when they're coming out of new waters, coming out of detox, they land in phase 1, and when they're in that phase of the program, you know, they're in a 90 day, pretty intensive, structured, regimented program in that phase where their sole focus is to really kind of dig deep and do the internal work that it takes. Jared Murray: To build an appropriate foundation in their recovery without a ton of distractions that are going to keep them from doing that work. And, you know, in working with this age group, 18 and 30 year olds, I know for me, getting sober at 20 I had to see that there were other young men who were my age, who were normal, who were having fun, who were cool. Jared Murray: Who I could connect with to be able to [00:12:00] identify, right? If I was in a setting where I was around guys who were way older than me, with wife and kids and career and all that I wasn't gonna connect to that as much, you know? I needed to be around Young men who I could really relate with and identify with because if I wasn't, you know, I know you guys probably can relate with this. Jared Murray: My disease is gonna focus on the one difference instead of the 99 similarities, you know, I mean that I'm someone like it's a disease of isolation. So I need to be able to find common ground with guys and I think we do a really good job of fostering that for young men and you know, what's really important and one thing I want to highlight like we do some really exceptional trauma work. Jared Murray: Dual diagnosis work attachment focused work. I mean, those things are a lot of the things that we focus on but I really love talking about the experiential and the adventure based stuff that we do, you know, and when I'm talking to families, I'm like, look in group Tuesday mornings and Saturday mornings for group they're going to be surfing or free dive in or fly fishing or kayaking or paddle boarding, whatever it is that we're doing. Jared Murray: [00:13:00] In terms of our experiential, experiential curriculum at that time. And what's important for these guys is through having those experiences that's what allows them to engage in this work. You know what I mean? If we keep them in a setting where they're just staring at the same four walls every day, sitting in the same groups, hearing the same things, like they're never going to engage in this stuff, man. Jared Murray: But we get guys outside and allow them to have these experiences that really helps them find themselves and really helps them connect. To the guys around them in the program. Right. And I think doing that kind of work man is so therapeutic and so crucial for this age population. You know, like it's amazing when you see a resistant 19, 20 year old come into the program and get out, you know, in the water and catch a wave. Jared Murray: Like we were on the clinical morning meeting, we were on the clinical morning meeting this week and we had this guy come to us and he is wanted to leave the whole first week that he is been there. 'cause that's what happens at primary treatment, right? Like he came in resistant. And like he went out surfing with the guys and afterwards was like, man, that was a killer experience. Jared Murray: You know, I might, I might actually be able to enjoy it here. [00:14:00] You know, like he, he really had an experience with recovery, in my opinion. Yeah. Through that. So, man, I love that we do that kind of stuff. That's huge. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. I mean, you know, the whole idea of experience recovery or even, you know, a lot of these like adventure based programs and things like that. Justin Mclendon: As a matter of fact, one of the podcasts we we did with someone earlier today was with It's an adventure recovery program, Tim with Adventure Recovery, and, you know, it just never ceases to amaze me, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, like learning to have fun and recovery and yes, that's important. Justin Mclendon: I don't want to devalue that that is important, but there's something about. Like you're saying, Jared, like that experience, that, that feeling of you know, the dopamine rush that we get from those experiences, the connectedness of being able to share those experiences with other people. I mean, it's just something deeper that I think sometimes is really difficult to find in an office clinical setting, or it takes a lot more work to maybe get to that place. Justin Mclendon: You know what I mean? You know, not to devalue [00:15:00] clinical work. I mean, I'm a therapist. I think there's a lot of value there. But there's just something of essence in doing that experiential work that is just really hard to find in other places. One Ryan Jarrell: hundred percent. And I think one of the things is that it, you know, people don't, I think, assign it as a classical value, but adventure exploration, those are values that people have, especially that young men have. Ryan Jarrell: It's the thing that they've been chasing in this substance use. And so they get to address and empower themselves and their values. I had an experience when I was We took the guys at Green Hill, we took them rock climbing, you know, and we got the instructor. And at one point, a client at Green Hill was operating was, was using the belay for me, myself, who was the program director at the time. Ryan Jarrell: And you know, it was pretty scary for me, right? It was, it was a kind of terrifying experience. This guy seemed to have a real inability to do laundry, and he was responsible for my life, essentially, at Pilot Mountain. But it was, it was really, really beautiful. I think what a lot of people, I think what a lot of parents really struggle to see with young people in recovery, this was definitely true for me.[00:16:00] Ryan Jarrell: Is the complete lack of self efficacy. The complete lack, I did not believe I could do anything at my core. I certainly couldn't do anything without drugs and alcohol. And that's what that escape was. And, and that adventure therapy builds up self efficacy like nobody else. You know? It's true. I, I know you guys have a lot of real specific kind of experiential options. Ryan Jarrell: Do you guys work with people in the Wilmington area and in the Wilmington recovery community there? Jared Murray: Yeah, we do, man. We have a lot of relationships with you know, people in our recovery community and locally in Wilmington on the, on the topic of experiential work we have a relationship with the Wrightsville Beach Outrigger Canoeing Club. Jared Murray: And so our guys get in these big outrigger canoes and, you know, do some outrigger canoeing around in the Bay. Which is cool, man. You learn about teamwork, you learn about connecting with these o with with each other. You learn about trust and, and trust in the other guys to, to row. And you know, there's, there's a lot that goes into that outrigger canoe and I got to do it with the guys when I was down there one time. Jared Murray: And again, like we're talking about, it's really through those experiences that. The [00:17:00] connectedness happens the self efficiency happens. I can't say that word. Right? You can't Ryan means, but man, those things are crucial. And for me getting sober when I was 20 recovery had to become a lifestyle for me. Jared Murray: Right? It had to be something. That I really could truly see myself living out each day and for the young men coming into our program recovery happens throughout the in our therapeutic groups and, you know, recovery happens in individual therapy. Growth happens in those in those ways. Those things are crucial to the therapeutic process. Jared Murray: But where I see guys engage the most is when I see 20 of them running around on the softball field, smiling and laughing. You know what I mean? I couldn't remember the last time I laughed or smiled or had fun, you know what I mean? And when I was in treatment coming alive again in that way and experiencing stuff like that helped me see that hey, this is something, man, that I might not hate, you know? Jared Murray: Sure. And I don't know, for this population, for young adults, that stuff's just crucial. I can't express it enough, you know? Yeah, Ryan Jarrell: [00:18:00] absolutely. You know, I think one of the things that, that, and we've probably talked about it on this podcast before, but I think it needs to be said, I'd like to talk about length of care and the importance of that, because I think it's something that, I mean, Jared, you know, Justin, you know, I know, people really balk at the idea, I mean, when you tell them that you have a continuity of care of 9 to 12 months, I mean, I think that really blows people's minds. Ryan Jarrell: And I'd really be interested in, Justin, your, and Jared your point of view from clinical and someone very experienced in the recovery industry, what is the importance of that continuity of care and the hmm. Justin Mclendon: Jared, you go 1st, buddy. Jared Murray: Yeah, I mean, since I've been working in this industry, which has been now just for about, you know, 8 years I've only, you know, worked at long term programs. Jared Murray: And that's what I'm a huge believer in. And what I love about our continuum at momentum is we have the ability to take young men all the way from residential. Care to extended care all the way to sober living, you know, through a full continuum of 9 to 12 months where we can slowly stand them on their [00:19:00] own two feet while giving them every single tool. Jared Murray: They need every step of the way to help them successfully do that. And we help them do that at their own pace. Our program is not 1 where it's you've done 90 days. You're 90 days is up, but you're going to the next phase. It's we only phase guys up if they're ready for that, you know, love and individualized. Jared Murray: Our care is, but we all know that every, you know, bit of outcome studies we've ever seen in this field points to the longer you can keep people engaged in a structured setting over a long course of time, the better outcomes we're going to have, you know, and I'm a big believer in this, that recovery does not happen overnight. Jared Murray: It happens over time. And you know, I can't tell you how many guys, and you guys see this too. Mm-hmm. that I've worked with doing this work who have just done the revolving door of traditional 28 days of treatment over and over and over again. And maybe when they've done that, they haven't followed through with aftercare recommendations. Jared Murray: Right. But, you know, it's just understanding that 30 days isn't long enough to fully treat the magnitude of the, the complicated issues that we deal with. You know, and this healing [00:20:00] takes. Takes a long time, man. And the longer, because that's the thing, right? It's like, when we talk about resistance, when we talk about guys that are pre contemplative I've seen many that are still kind of struggling with that, even 90 days into our program, right? Jared Murray: But when we get them into that second phase, or into that third phase, and we keep them longer, We, we see a shift eventually, hopefully, right? That's the hope. And, you know, sometimes that shift just doesn't happen right at first. It needs time for that to be able to happen, you know, and that's what I love about having a full continuum and having the capacity to work with guys on a long term basis. Jared Murray: I think it's so crucial. Justin Mclendon: I couldn't agree with you more, Jared. I think you know, we, we have, again, we have these conversations with families and with clients all the time. And I think it's, It's true, especially when you're, you're looking at a program like momentum or some other programs that are based on a, on a, on a longer length of stay there's kind of that sticker shock, right? Justin Mclendon: It's Oh my God, you're asking me to go away somewhere for, you know, three months, six months, nine months. And that's a lot for them to digest. [00:21:00] But I think number one to, to, you know, go back to what you're saying, Jared, I think number one, like length of time in. In clinical care, receiving that clinical support is directly correlated with your increasing your chances of successful sobriety, I mean, hands down. Justin Mclendon: And I think you can't argue that point. I mean, I think we see it time and time again, as you said, Jared, I think there's so many people that do these, you know, 28 day, 30 day programs and they think that it's just a one time thing. They can go in, I'm going to, you know, commit myself for this month and then I'm going to come out and I'm not going to follow any recommendations or aftercare. Justin Mclendon: And I'm, I'm just fine, right? I'm going to go in, I'm going to, you know, do my time, so to speak, and then I'm just going to be cured. And somehow life is just going to look completely different when I come out. And the reality is, is that just does not work that way, right? So I think you got two options. Justin Mclendon: You can either, it's going to take about a year, at least clinically, and it may continue on more of an outpatient basis past that. And obviously utilizing community support, you know, working a personal program of [00:22:00] recovery, these things are super important. But. If you're not going to a facility where you're going to be there for, you know, six months more and slowly step down to those levels of care, then you're going to do it in a disjointed fashion. Justin Mclendon: You're going to do 30 days plus of residential, then you're going to come out and you're going to do an IOP. Then you're going to step down to an outpatient, like you're going to do the same thing. It's just going to be in different settings, right? And I think for those people that are willing to do that in a facility like Momentum or places that have that more longer term kind of modality it's, it's more helpful because at least if you're going to do that work for that amount of time, at least do it in a place to where, you know, the team is going to have continuity. Justin Mclendon: They're going to be able to communicate. There's just going to be more of a seamless transition from one level of care while you're staying supported in that environment, instead of, you know, going to the residential program and then hoping that the residential program team is going to communicate with the IOP. Justin Mclendon: And then when you step down to OP, that the IOP is going to [00:23:00] communicate with the, with the therapist that you're going to see, like you get, you're, you're rolling a lot of dices in that situation, I think, you Ryan Jarrell: know. 100%. I also think I like the cultural element of being a young person specifically in recovery, like the idea that I could have done 30 days of residential treatment and then return to a dorm room, you know what I mean? Ryan Jarrell: Where like, where there's drug dealers and drinking just everywhere. I'm, I'm just not going to have, I'm just setting myself up for failure in that regard. And, and kind of winnowing and sorting between who is going through a quote unquote phase like people thought I was and who has a genuine substance use disorder. Ryan Jarrell: You just can't tell, you know, and to throw you in that milieu is just, it's just really difficult. Justin Mclendon: It's difficult. And you know, again, all of this, not to say that maybe some people are successful when they do that, right? Maybe some people, you know, they, you know, they wake up one day, they're like, Hey, I need to make a change. Justin Mclendon: They go to a detox, they go to a 30 day program, they get a therapist afterwards. And And they're, and they're sober, right. And they're happy and that's fine. I think for the vast [00:24:00] majority of people, things just don't work out that right. Like you're saying you can't, you know, leave from a potentially like a dysfunctional family system where you've been struggling and not been able to maintain sobriety. Justin Mclendon: You know, go be sober for about 30 days and then go right directly back into that family environment or that home environment and then expect that it's going to be okay. Definitely not a dorm room. For sure. Jared Murray: A dorm room. Back in the city. Alabama. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah, going to the press. Jared Murray: That's right. In talking about the full continuum and in talking about long term treatment like we are, especially with young adults, like it brings me to You know, just the whole theory of the family's part in that, right? Jared Murray: And the part that they play in engaging with us and treatment to continue to keep their loved one with us. You know what I mean? Because... You guys see it on the front end all the time, like the way that guys get to us typically is because parents are putting down some boundaries and utilizing some leverage and, you know, understanding and following our direction when we tell them like, hey, it's not that your son won't be successful or not that they don't want to get better, they just don't [00:25:00] know how to rationally make the best decision for what they need right now, you know, and coaching them on how to put those boundaries in place. Jared Murray: And the thing is, is we have that intervention on the front end, right? And we asked these guys for a minimum commitment of 90 days and then typically what we see is around that 90 day mark we have to have that same intervention, you know, and the hope is, is that throughout 90 days, we're continuously prepping the family and preparing them for understanding that there is a next step after primary treatment. Jared Murray: The importance of that, you know, but also the part that they're going to continue to play and helping them get to that next step because families will think, well, you know, they've been there for 90 days. They sound better look great. They're eating. Well, they're saying all the right things. They're good to come home, you know, and it's continuing to educate them that hey, this, this process is still not over. Jared Murray: And in order to get them to the next level of care, we're gonna have to probably have a conversation about boundaries again. You know, and that's the family's role, right? In keeping 'em in treatment for a, for a year. And, and their part is so crucial for their loved one to have a successful outcome, [00:26:00] you know? Jared Murray: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Do Justin Mclendon: you Jared, do you guys at Momentum, do you have a family component? Do you work with the families on exactly that? Like setting those boundaries, understanding how to. Kind of, kind of what support looks like and how to get their own treatment, so to speak. Jared Murray: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so at Momentum, we have that same belief system and philosophy that if the whole family system is not recovering together, it's going to be really hard for their loved one to have a successful outcome. Jared Murray: I hear our owner, Rick, Jared Murray: I hear Rick always mention that the guys who come to us that engage in our program that have their families also engage in our program and and do the things that we recommend and trust us, you know what I mean? And follow our guidance throughout the whole process. Those guys do well, you know? And so how we go about working with the family and engaging the family is all of our families get weekly family therapy. Jared Murray: Thank you. On a weekly basis, they also [00:27:00] attend a weekly support group that we do via zoom on Thursdays where they all kind of hop on zoom and we have 1 of our masters level therapist facilitated support group via zoom. And then a big thing that we do is a 2 day intensive family workshop that we do quarterly. Jared Murray: So, every 90 days. And families will come in town for that workshop and day one will be a lot of psycho education around attachment work and kind of what we're trying to accomplish with your loved one, educating them on all of those types of things, right? And then day two, we actually bring the family and their loved one in and we do family sculpting and psycho drama with the entire family, which is one of the most powerful processes these families. Jared Murray: You know, could experience with their loved one. We've seen so much powerful stuff happen in those settings during the family program. And, you know, I want to mention it too, like the, the COVE, right? Our Young Women's Program. We do the same thing with them as well. The same family program, the same family therapy, you know, the same roadmap. Jared Murray: Which is Justin Mclendon: crucial. Absolutely. It is crucial. [00:28:00] I mean, as, as you mentioned, I think if especially, I think for everyone, but especially that younger adult population, I mean, like the families if they're not engaged, it's just so much more difficult of a process for the client to be able to find recovery for their self, you know? Ryan Jarrell: Or how much it's so often the idea that the child is the problem, everyone else is fine. If the kid would only act right, then we would all be in this harmonious kind of correlation without seeing that we're all impacting each other. We're all pushing and pulling in these very specific kind of ways. And it's difficult to give families to have that kind of eye opening experience that they need to engage in their own kind of step of recovery. Ryan Jarrell: I know you guys do the COVE as well. I would love for you to talk a little bit about that, Jared, if there are differences between those programs or how it's different for you guys to interact with young women as you interact with young men. Jared Murray: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there are like, you know, some differences, right? Jared Murray: I know when, when Gabby had the vision to, to open the cove and do the women's program it was to have a heightened, you know, [00:29:00] trauma component to it. However, like we do trauma work with all of our guys too on a very deep level. But the women's program specifically, you know, a very trauma informed trauma based program, you know, we have therapists who are certified and. Jared Murray: EMDR, somatic experiencing, brain spotting, which are all different modalities we work. You know, through trauma with, you know, with, with our, with our young men and our young women. And dealing with the young women, you know, we, we started out initially as an 8 bed program and we're just serving these women in extended care and sober living. Jared Murray: We, we, we're, we've not been offering primary treatment for them. What we've done recently is we've actually just now expanded our extended care and we have more beds for extended care, which is good to know. And so we just moved our young women to a new campus. That is similar to the men's setup. Jared Murray: And so it backs up to the saltwater Marsh. We have brand new townhouses that exist on this campus. They're awesome. Really awesome facilities. It's a really unique campus and we're [00:30:00] super excited about that. But as far as the programming goes, everything's the same besides us not having primary yet. For young women that is, that is hopefully going to be coming soon. Jared Murray: That's great. Justin Mclendon: It's definitely a needed resource for sure. I think not to get on that whole soapbox, but you know, I think young adult treatment, especially adolescent treatment, which I know you guys don't do. I mean, there's a huge need for that, but there really is a lack of services. I feel just kind of in North Carolina in general for, for a female specifically. Justin Mclendon: I mean, it's so it's, it's great to hear that you guys are offering that and then they're going to expand those services. Jared Murray: Yeah, we've just seen a lot of a lot of need for it. Right? Basically, like, when we first opened up the women's extended care we got filled up pretty quickly and got on a wait list pretty quickly because there's not a lot of long term options for adult women, you know, like we're talking about and and I think options that are gender specific that are, you know, age specific that are specialized in that way of working with trauma and co occurring issues. Jared Murray: Right. that are long term, you don't [00:31:00] see a lot of that, you know, for women for sure. And so, you know, I think those, I think those components are crucial. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. I love how you guys really address that recovery can't be this monolithic experience. That there are demographic specific experiences that are, that are best addressed within that demographic. Ryan Jarrell: And, and just because it's a, it's a more holistic and, and, and better treatment. And it's A young body isn't going to react the same way as, as someone who is older. And the mental health operates in the same way. You talked a little bit about Gabby, and I think it's something that we don't talk a lot about. Ryan Jarrell: I know we talk a lot about clinical modalities, but I wanted to ask a little bit about how important is it to have you know, a psychiatric nurse practitioner really kind of keyed in to your milieu and, and, and how psychiatric medication might play a role over someone's continuum of care at Momentum? Ryan Jarrell: Yeah, that's Jared Murray: a good question. And she's a psychiatric PA, Ryan. Oh, Ryan Jarrell: I know. She's going to listen to me. Sorry, Gabby. I'm sorry. Jared Murray: No, but, but, I mean, just to just to talk about [00:32:00] Gabby, not to get in too much of the weeds with medication and stuff, because that's really her topic that she is so skilled with, but just to talk kind of about her and her skill set. Jared Murray: You know, she has a large background in clinical mental health. A very extensive background of substance abuse as well. And what's really dynamic about Gabby is she meets with our guys and our girls weekly, you know, at first and, and definitely does thorough med assessments with them, thorough evaluation kind of with them on the front end and goes over everything from their childhood up to what led them, you know, into treatment. Jared Murray: And what's great about Gabby is, She's the center of our pro she's a big part of our program, right, she's there, you know, every single week, Monday through Friday, you know, she's there, and she builds real relationships and rapport with these guys. Not to say that not all psychiatrists don't do that, but, you know, a lot of programs you'll ask somebody, hey what was the psychiatrist like there, and they're like, oh, you know, I met him once or twice, maybe, the time that I've been here. Jared Murray: Well, Gabby is meeting with him on a consistent basis, and she's a therapist by trade. She's [00:33:00] certified in somatic experiencing. So I think what sets her apart is it's not just like the psychiatry, medication conversation or topic that she meets with these guys and girls on, like she builds real relationships with them. Jared Murray: She does, you know, even engages in some trauma work with them, you know, because she's also a therapist by trade. So you kind of have that psychiatric skill set, the therapist skill set mixed into one, and she just builds real rapport and relationships with them. What's interesting is some of our guys, not as much the girls, but some of the guys look at her as Oh, I can trust her like she's an outsider and she's you know, I'm the medical director and everything you tell me is going to our whole clinical team, you know, but it just speaks volumes about her ability to build rapport and trust, you know, and. Jared Murray: Yeah, we're very, very fortunate to have her, for sure. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, that's huge, especially for a medical provider. I mean, we are also blessed with Dr. Hong, our medical director. He's very much the same. He's also skilled in therapy, and he will really spend time with, with patients and not to say anything negative about. Justin Mclendon: Doctors in general, but I, I feel like [00:34:00] that is a difficult thing to find in that, in that particular part of the field for sure. Jared Murray: It is, it definitely is. And she helps so much with medications and different mental health issues that we can work with, you know, she's a major component of, you know, being able to set us apart in some ways and helping us work with various issues, you know, the comes to different dual diagnosis issues and medications. Justin Mclendon: That's great, man. That's good stuff. Ryan Jarrell: Well, Jared I, I think we're coming close to our time here. Is, you know, is there anything else that you want, that you want us to know? Anything you'd like to broadcast about Momentum, about yourself? Jared Murray: Man, I mean, no, not, not that I can think of. You know, I just, I love doing this work. Jared Murray: As you guys know, I'm extremely passionate about it. I love working with families on the front end. I love doing the admissions piece, you know, as well. And just kind of diving in the trenches with them. We've had so much good experiences working with you guys. Like y'all are just phenomenal on the detox and stabilization [00:35:00] piece and so responsive and. Jared Murray: You know, just do such a good job and helping us on the front end and we appreciate you guys for that and love working with y'all. So, Jared, let me, Justin Mclendon: let me hit you with this real quick, man, not to put you on the spot. So if we had if you had to say one thing to any potential families or potential clients that are kind of kicking the tires of treatment or. Justin Mclendon: looking to stop their use and step into treatment. What, what would be like one nugget that you'd kind of leave them with? Jared Murray: Man, there's so many, right? I guess the one nugget would be like, you know, as cheesy as this sounds, I guess is to not, to not lose hope, you know, like don't, don't give up on them. If there's one thing I really try to help families see is like, When they get on the phone with us, they have so much compassion fatigue, you know what I mean? Jared Murray: They they aren't able to view their loved one as a cancer patient anymore that suffers from a chronic progressive disease Yeah, you know because the person that's cancer doesn't steal from you lie to you manipulate you You know what? I mean? So they develop this [00:36:00] compassion fatigue and when they get on the phone with us, man, they're tapped out And so the biggest thing we try to accomplish with them Is helping them get on this side of compassion and empathy again with them. Jared Murray: Because if we can achieve that with families, then like we can move them into action. So to really want to get them the best help that they need, you know? So, yeah. Amen, brother. Justin Mclendon: That's for sure. Well, thank you, Jared. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the Jared Murray: time, man. This has been awesome. I'm glad my cat didn't jump on the screen over here. Jared Murray: I'm kind of Justin Mclendon: upset that it Ryan Jarrell: didn't. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Maybe better luck next to him. I guess Jared Murray: that's right. That's right.[00:37:00] Show Notes In this compelling episode of the Finding New Waters Podcast, we sit down with Jared Murray, a seasoned expert in addiction recovery and admissions at Momentum Recovery. Delve into the world of long-term recovery and discover why traditional 28-day programs may not be enough to address complex issues. Jared emphasizes the significance of extended care, family engagement, and the gradual transition to independence for young adults seeking sobriety. Listen in as we explore the unique challenges faced by individuals on their recovery journeys and how a full continuum of care can make all the difference. Jared also highlights the crucial role of psychiatric care and trauma-informed therapy in achieving lasting recovery. If you or a loved one are navigating the path to healing and sobriety, this episode offers valuable insights and hope. Tune in now to embark on a transformative journey toward a brighter future. 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This podcast delves into the realm of dissociative disorders, particularly Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), as trauma therapist Erin Lewis shares her mission to reduce stigma, foster understanding among clinicians, and provide effective treatment strategies via her group practice, NC Cutting Edge Counseling, PLLC. < Back to Episodes Understanding Trauma and Dissociation with Erin Lewis 52:36 min | Erin Lewis | Finding New Waters This podcast delves into the realm of dissociative disorders, particularly Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), as trauma therapist Erin Lewis shares her mission to reduce stigma, foster understanding among clinicians, and provide effective treatment strategies via her group practice, NC Cutting Edge Counseling, PLLC. Subscribe "My hope is to decrease stigma of DID around the world, starting with educating clinicians on dissociative disorders, to reduce stigma by being transparent about my own DID, and to provide effective treatment for individuals with dissociative disorders and trauma." - Erin Lewis Podcast Transcript #012 Erin Lewis Erin Lewis: [00:00:00] A lot of people defined association based on symptomology. Mm-hmm. When really, it's really a way that you encode memory, like you're storing memory into the body. So you have like flash bulb memories. You have like your stereotypical, like you both are looking at me right now, and then like it's going into your working memory. Erin Lewis: Maybe you'll throw it out later. You won't remember this moment potentially. Or maybe you'll hold onto it forever. Who's to say like, sure. Um, but essentially when you have dissociation, it's. Imagine kind of like a grate in front of you of your perception and like the picture of my face, for instance, that you're looking at goes through and then it feels like, it's like, it's like a million little pieces. Erin Lewis: Like a million is probably like an under store. Mm-hmm. Understated because of the brain, right? Like but either or, essentially like you're not getting the snapshot. Like we don't record in video. A lot of people are like, oh, I see video, like, No, it's like you have snaps, but then when your average snap shots of your memory actually like goes through it, great. Erin Lewis: All of a sudden [00:01:00] it's like, okay, well the sound might actually store somewhere else then where the picture and image stores and then like the feelings that you somatically held. Justin Mclendon: Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one through the struggles with substance use and mental health. When we find ourself in a crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light into what is often the darkest hour for many families. Justin Mclendon: So today on Finding New Waters, uh, we have our guest, Erin [00:02:00] Lewis joining us today. I'm also joined by Dr. Harold Hong, the medical director at, uh, new Waters Recovery, and as we were discussing many other things as well. Um, Erin Lewis, Ms. Uh lc, m h c n a r m, and master Therapist is a somatic psychotherapist specializing in dissociative disorders and trauma treatment. Justin Mclendon: Erin began her career in healthcare, working in nursing homes, primarily on the dementia care unit and rehabilitation unit as a certified nursing assistant. This is where she became passionate about mental healthcare, and later, later began working in a residential transitional group home for individuals with acute psychotic disorders. Justin Mclendon: For several years, Aaron became passionate about the trauma treatment clients were. Receiving, which resulted in their choosing resulted in her choosing a specialty in trauma treatment. Upon having worked in different levels of care, Erin became intrigued with clients who reported [00:03:00] experiencing dissociation. Justin Mclendon: Erin then decided to receive training and specialized in dissociative disorders, primarily focused on dissociative identity disorder, or d i d. Erin is the co-owner of NC Cutting edge counseling. An advance, an advanced trauma treatment outpatient group practice that bridges the gap between research and clinicians to give individuals with trauma the most effective treatment to date. Justin Mclendon: Erin lives with d i d and runs community groups for people with d i d. She is involved in with D I D research and educates trains and consults with clinicians on how to treat dissociative disorders. Erin lives with her husband and three dogs in North Carolina where she enjoys connecting to God. Justin Mclendon: Through Bible study, running comedy, nature, dog walks, hiking and music. Love it. What Erin Lewis: kind of music do you like? Aaron? Um, so obviously Eminem is the greatest rapper of all time. Love. [00:04:00] I'll just go on record saying Love Max. Mm-hmm. Um, but also, I mean the rap genre. Okay. Period. Cool. It's just like, so Chan like acid rap, you go back to like Throwback Tupac and Biggie. Erin Lewis: I like 'em both. All of it. Um, Halsey's good too. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Okay, cool. I love that. Love that. So I know we've read a little bit about your background, but maybe we could start with you just shedding a little bit more color, right? Like, Why'd you become a therapist? Why? Why the interest, right? Erin Lewis: Yeah. So I actually was one of those people that was like, I hate therapists, I hate therapy. Erin Lewis: I hate the whole, like burn it to the ground kind of a person. Right? And then I think it was cuz I, um, being in the nursing homes specifically, I would see all of these really like, Problematic. Um, clients or patients, really residents of the nursing home. And it wasn't that they were problematic, they were just weren't, weren't receiving the right treatment and they were really being overlooked. Erin Lewis: I mean, from bipolar to schizophrenia to P T S [00:05:00] D. And I was just like, There has to be a better way. Mm-hmm. For like, especially at the end of life. Towards the end of life. Mm-hmm. Um, or you know, even if you've had a stroke and now you have to live in um, one of these facilities to help. I felt like there had to be some, like, what is missing? Erin Lewis: And then like, I looked at the staff roster cuz then I was actually gonna go into, um, an administrator type of position. I was looking into going into that like running, um, Uh, not hospitals necessarily, but more nursing homes were my focus. And then I was like, where are the staff therapists? Fun fact, nowhere, like there's occupational therapists. Erin Lewis: And I was like, the, this is the wrong kind of therapist. It, it felt like mm-hmm. I was like, okay, well what's, what's the gap here? What's missing? Mm-hmm. And then when I went and started working at, um, As a case manager or like, it's a, called a care coordinator at mm-hmm. That place, it's a case manager though position at, um, [00:06:00] a group home that was specific to acute psychosis. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. And it was really like the testing ground. If you're gonna go in the state hospital for an extended period of time, many years, or if you're gonna be able to. Ever go back out in the community. We were that testing ground. So it was like very heightenedly acute. And I was like, okay, crisis work is all right. Erin Lewis: You know, like I, it was just like that adrenaline. Mm-hmm. And then I was like, oh, I didn't realize that at the time. That was my own trauma. Things that like, right. I love being in crisis. Not me personally, but like helping people through crisis. Um, I have this calm that starts to like, Oh, things feel right, which is the opposite. Erin Lewis: I learned of like a lot of the, you know, someone's like setting the house on fire, somebody's throwing chairs, and I'm like, all right, well, like let's just figure it out and Right. Yeah. I was like, I think that I want to be a trauma therapist. And so then, you know, many years later after the schooling, um, And think I'm actually [00:07:00] going back to school in, uh, two weeks for my PhD Oh. Erin Lewis: Good's when I I to start. Wow, cool. Um, specializing in trauma, which is kind of silly. Um, I was like, was it silly? Because it's like I already specialize in it and I feel like I'm cheating. I don't know. I was like, maybe I should do addictions or something I don't like, makes it up a little. Um, so that's really how I got into like the therapy world. Erin Lewis: Before that I was, um, Also like pre-med, I was very much like biochemistry nerd. Okay. Uh, and then I was like, oh, I think I wanna sit and talk to people actually. Mm-hmm. You know, like, um, also organic chemistry is the worst. Hats off to you. Dr. Harold Hong: I, those are tough days. Dark days in days. Actually, it's, there's trauma there. Dr. Harold Hong: Actually, we could probably talk about that and probably some dissociation. Certainly Erin Lewis: I believe it. It's like, what are these covalent bonds? And I was like, oh no. Yeah, just, [00:08:00] Justin Mclendon: yeah. Oh goodness. So trauma. So, you know, so one thing that comes up for me, uh, is dissociative disorders is, you know, maybe even just starting with like, what is dissociation? Justin Mclendon: Right? Like, what does that even look like? Mm-hmm. Where does it come about? Erin Lewis: So a lot of people defined association based on symptomology. Mm-hmm. When really, it's really a way that you encode memory, like you're storing memory into the body. So you have like flash bulb memories. You have like your stereotypical like. Erin Lewis: You both are looking at me right now and then like it's going into your working memory. Maybe you'll throw it out later. You won't remember this moment potentially. Or maybe you'll hold onto it forever. Who's to say like, sure. Um, but essentially when you have dissociation, it's imagine kind of like a great in front of you, of your perception and like the picture of my face, for instance, that you're looking at goes through and then it feels like it's like, It's like a million little pieces. Erin Lewis: Like a million is probably like an under story. Mm-hmm. Understated because of the brain, right? Like, [00:09:00] but either or, essentially like you're not getting the snapshot. Like we don't record in video. A lot of people are like, oh, I see video, like, No, it's like you have snaps, but then when your average snap shots of your memory actually like goes through a grate, all of a sudden it's like, okay, well the sound might actually store somewhere else then where the picture and image stores and then like the feelings that you somatically held, um, or like your body feelings can store somewhere else. Erin Lewis: And then like, so then you have all these fragmentations. So let's say you went through like a trauma. I don't know. I clap my hands. This is traumatic for some reason right now, right? Sure. Yeah. So there's a part like if we're dissociated, right? Like so a part is gonna hold that like sound of clapping, then there's gonna be another part that's gonna hold my voice likely and whatever I am actually saying. Erin Lewis: And then there's another part that's holding that like body memory, like that's as simple as I can break it down. Essentially, it's the way that you store memory, okay? And it [00:10:00] happens. Um, Commonly in ptsd, it actually happens commonly in um, Every disorder there is. If honestly, so when we look at like, even major depression, like severe major depression where it's like, I can't get out of bed every day is the same day over and over again. Erin Lewis: What month is it? Like there's a level of dissociation there? Um, now when you look at it from like more of a trauma lens, there's different types of dissociation. So let's say I was handcuffed to this chair and I'm dissociating or something, right? Like. Potentially later on when I'm processing with my therapist or something, my actual left hand could go numb completely. Erin Lewis: Mm. Not my whole entire body necessarily. That could happen as well. Mm-hmm. Right. Like, so then it's like very selective, like dissociation of like, oh, now I, now my hand is numb. I can't feel anything. Interesting. So there's so many different types of dissociation, um, but it's like, so depersonalization, derealization, for instance. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. An episode [00:11:00] of that happens to 52% of the United States population at least once. So it's, it's very common. Um, so is that a Dr. Harold Hong: type of dissociating, depersonalizing, dere? Those are specific types Yes. Of dissociation. Erin Lewis: Definite. It's definite over time. So it's kind of like, Also I had, since I had my, um, start of my career in psychosis, I, a lot of times I'll be like, oh, it's kind of like that. Erin Lewis: But, so it's not like psychosis just to say uhhuh, but like, I'm making this comparison of like, um, so essentially like once you have certain delusions and you have like a psychotic break, let's say, and let's say you think you're God or something, uh, delusions of grandeur that you're having. Then you come back to reality, you're on medication or whatever. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. You stop taking your meds or something, then you go back to that same delusion. Usually it's along the same lines. Mm-hmm. So dissociation. Sometimes people dis dissociate from their body [00:12:00] specifically, or even their identity where it's just like, Am I a person? Like what's happening? Sometimes it's the environment though. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's like, oh, this isn't real, you know? Sure. Like, or maybe it is like, and everything kind of feels like farther away. Um, so if you think of like shock, this is, your body is taking in too much at one time to, to really like take it in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it has to store in other places. So those are unprocessed memories. Erin Lewis: Um, Yeah, I love memory. I can go into memory forever, but I love Dr. Harold Hong: that. Yeah. Like for, for, for people out there who aren't professionals, um, what are some signs that like a loved one is, It's dissociating, Erin Lewis: so it can actually be very difficult to catch. Okay. Um, you might not know it or it can be profound. Erin Lewis: Everything's on a spectrum. So slight dissociation. I mean, even you driving like let's say on a long road trip for a [00:13:00] hundred miles. Mm-hmm. You don't remember 60 of those miles cuz you're thinking about. Oh, spaghetti. Now I'm thinking about spaghetti, but just, or whatever food that like you're thinking about or, yeah. Erin Lewis: Daydream about like wherever you're gonna be your destination now. Like you've not encoded that entire strip of land, which is 60 miles, right? Like. That's a ti. So like, it's kind of, it can also be kind of like daydreaming. Mm-hmm. So it's just like they're kind of not there, or they can like, have this stare, it's like the thousand mile stare. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Um, where it's just like, what sometimes if you talk to them as what, like this is more on the profound end. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes when you talk to them, they take a while to respond. So it can be like, Hey, how are you? And there's like, They're really like, it's, it's taking them some time to mm-hmm. Get that cognitive awareness because they're somewhere else. Erin Lewis: Um, so it can look like that. Um, how else can it look? It can I treat like a lot of the severe side [00:14:00] of dissociation? So what I'm thinking is sometimes people are so afraid and terrified and frightened, just like. Talking in a room with somebody, uh, that they're almost non-verbal or completely non-verbal, that can be, that they're dissociating. Erin Lewis: It's just too much for them. They're too afraid, right? Um, it can look like all of those things. Sometimes it looks like. Um, so because like I have d a d, right? So I associate fairly often all the time, right? Like, so my husband for instance, he'll be like, oh yeah, we're going to uh, party Saturday. I'm like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Erin Lewis: And then it'll be like 30 minutes later and I'll be like, Hey, Saturday I was thinking that we would like, uh, go to this place or do this thing. And he's like, So we're going to that party and he is like, just let you know. And I'll be like, right, right, right, right, right. So I like, if you're planning something, you gotta write it down. Erin Lewis: That's all kind of a thing, but that's like a common one. Um, it's more than [00:15:00] mindlessness though. So if you think of mindfulness, the opposite mindlessness as like you leave cabinets open or something. Right. That's kinda like your mind is somewhere else, but that's not necessarily dissociation just to like, Bridge that gap a bit. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, but yeah, those are some ways that Dr. Harold Hong: because there's, there's being distracted, right? So if, if my wife is, uh, talking to me about errands for the weekend, but I'm thinking about like, Being on call for the weekend, I might just miss a detail. Yeah. That's distraction, not Erin Lewis: dissociation. Yes. Erin Lewis: Dissociation is like, oh, I'm paying attention to you. I'm like, yes, I'm in it with you. And then all of a sudden it's like, so it like a lot of times with dissociative identity disorder specifically or like more, um, even O S D D on the size of dissociation. Yeah. That's more profound. It's like they're listening. Erin Lewis: It's not, they're not necessarily even distracted by anything. Mm-hmm. They're listening and. It's just [00:16:00] gone. And a lot of times they don't know that it's gone until you start doing like these timelines and it's like, oh, they think that they remember everything and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Erin Lewis: Like they're covering a lot. Yeah. And they might not even know that they are covering, cuz this is really a disorder of hiding. Right? So then you do these timelines and it's like, oh yeah, I don't remember second grade or third grade or fourth grade. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, you don't remember 10 years of your life? Erin Lewis: You know, and or however long, right? Like it could be even more or less. Um, but yeah, distraction is different than dissociation for sure. So Justin Mclendon: I'm wondering, um, what's happening like neurologically there, like is there something that's kind of going offline or like any, any thoughts on that? Erin Lewis: Oh yeah. I am a neuro nerd. Erin Lewis: Okay. Yeah. So let's do that. So, um, we find a couple of interesting things in a brain with d i d We don't know everything that's happening. Mm-hmm. It is widely [00:17:00] being researched and it has been for the 10, the last 10 years or so, however, so there's this, um, hypothalamic pituitary adrenal act, HPA axis. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Like in the brain. The upticks with trauma specifically, but think of it like almost like a gear that's turning for everybody. It's just like, okay, now you've had some trauma and it's going and it's like, okay, well now you have a dissociation. And it's just like your amygdala is firing. Your hippocampus is firing, your hippocampus is overgeneralizing things. Erin Lewis: Your amygdala is like everything is a threat. Mm-hmm. Because your hippocampus has overgeneralized it. The amygdala, think of that as like your threat response a little bit. It's just like your little alarm bells. Um, and so what we see over time with that creates these neurological differences in the brain is that from PTSD to D I d cuz there's a trauma spectrum. Erin Lewis: Um, what we see in people with d i d is they actually have larger matter white track matters in their brain than gray. So you have white matter and gray [00:18:00] matter. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There is a reduced, um, level of gray matter in the brain. Increased white matter. What is really interesting, I'm really into, um, this biomarker right now. Erin Lewis: It's called, um, tumor necrosis factor alpha, and it's actually reduced in people with d i d, which is like weird because it's increased people with P S D a lot of the research is showing. So it's like what I'm very interested in that specific, um, Because there's really mm-hmm. A lot of interesting, uh, PTSD research being done. Erin Lewis: And what Justin Mclendon: is that responsible for? That particular biomarker? Erin Lewis: Yeah. So it's involved in everything, in my opinion. Okay. There's so many things it's involved with, but there's, uh, inflammation. It's an inflammatory marker. Okay. Um, but it's reduced, which is interesting cuz trauma increases it over time. Um, And in North America, even more interestingly, cuz I treat, um, in multiple different countries if [00:19:00] I can treat there. Erin Lewis: Right. Germany, I can't. They have certain licenses that I don't have. Okay. But like the UK is different. Um, Anyways. But if you look across the globe, PTs D is kind of joked to be an Americanized disorder. Mm-hmm. Because like there's such high rates here versus anywhere else in the entire world. Um, so there's lots of theories behind that. Erin Lewis: We don't 100% know what There are some theories. Yeah. Anyways, so like with the dis soci dissociation, um, specifically I think what is super interesting from a global level is. When I read it, I was like, that can't be right. I was just like, I disagree with this statement. And then I had to do a lot of digging in. Erin Lewis: I was like, oh, mm-hmm. I'm wrong. Like the, the research, you know, I'm always gonna like go to the research. So essentially people in North America with d i d, they have more psychosomatic symptoms, so like body sym. So these are like, uh, pseudo-seizures. Okay. Um, um, you can have parts that have. Parts, [00:20:00] personalities, um, I think of them as neural networks myself, but whatever you wanna call 'em. Erin Lewis: Um, some can have diabetes. They actually process drugs differently in the, which makes it incredibly, you could likely speak better to this, um, hard to treat medically. Um, it's not like it's a serotonin, retic situation, right? Mm-hmm. It just depends. Your cells are moving dependent on the neurological network that is online essentially, or whatever part is fronting whatever language you would like to use. Erin Lewis: Sure, yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I mean, trauma, it, it changes not just how we think and how we feel, but our, our bodies. Yeah. Right. Like our, our brains, like there was, uh, in just a couple months ago, the American journalist Psychiatry had this wild study where they looked at, um, brain scans of, um, different races and. Dr. Harold Hong: Different mixtures of trauma in their history. And the, the, the earth shaking fighting of this was [00:21:00] that, um, the brain volumes for the, the part of your brain that controls like emotion regulation, planning, executive function trauma makes that smaller, right? And also other parts that are involved in emotion, like the amygdala, like all those wines get smaller. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, and. Races and ethnicities that are more likely to be traumatized have smaller brain volumes. But a white, a white person who was as stressed as a black person, they have like similar brain volumes in those pieces. And so trauma, it, it physically affects how our brains are. And it, it, it's, it's striking. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, and then when you have trauma and stress, your cortisol levels go up. Mm-hmm. And that suppresses inflammation by suppressing your immune system. And we know people who have high trauma scores are more likely to get cancer. Mm-hmm. Because we know that cancer is, is in some ways a di a disorder of your body not detecting and eliminating mutated [00:22:00] cells correctly. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So these are, these are profound things. Mm-hmm. And I think only now is, is the science and our, our awareness of just our everyday living, uh, coming to, to make sense and connect with each other. Um, but like for. You know, the, the, there's so much that our, our nurses can benefit from by understanding like their histories and their bodies and their relationships more deeply. Dr. Harold Hong: And I get really excited about coming to work because this is where it all connects. Yeah. Right. Um, so I, I know that our patients, our clients are, they use alcohol to deal with pain. Like to, to disconnect from stresses in life. Uh, and there's a lot of parallels between that and other stories I've heard about children being abused and, and they create like this magical world in their mind. Dr. Harold Hong: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. And, and when, when their parent is out of control, uh, and that the abuse begins, their mind goes to this magical place and they, they don't feel or remember what happens. And I see a lot of parallels, uh, but you being a therapist who specializes in this world, I would, I would just love to see if you see something like this and if so, like what's going on? Erin Lewis: I'm like, that is dissociation. Yeah. Like I, I got all smiling cause I was like, oh yeah, like that. Um, That other world, or it's kind of like, this isn't happening. Like it's, it's so, it's not just denial as much as it's, it's profound. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's like it's not happening right now. Dad is throwing something across the room. Erin Lewis: It's like, well, no, that's not happening. Like, look at me in this family that I'm sitting. And you can have created a whole different family, right? Mm-hmm. Um, It, it could be. Um, we see this especially in foster care systems, um, where [00:24:00] they have like this imaginary family that really loves them and cares about them. Erin Lewis: And um, and it's really helpful in terms of coping cuz sometimes it's like a kid is sometimes in just a really horrible. Situation. They don't have the resources to get out. They don't have like, usually, you know, unless they're like child stars, right? Like they don't have their own homes and right jobs and they can't set those boundaries. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. So that dissociative factor is so helpful. It just becomes too leaned on and all of a sudden it becomes not helpful in adulthood. Right. Um, because then it's also hard from a somatic sense to, I always ask this question, uh, to my clients of, when did you know it was over? Like, when did you know the abuse was over? Erin Lewis: Whatever it is. Mm-hmm. When did you know it was over? And a lot of times they're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, I mean, you're sitting here in front of me right now cuz there's so much, um, trauma memories that [00:25:00] are unprocessed by that point that they get to you as an adult, that it's just like they're really in this heightened state, like on edge. Erin Lewis: So it's never ended. Right. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Erin Lewis: Interesting. And then once you, they say it out loud, like, oh, I guess I knew because then asking them that, it's kind of like a tricksy way of, um, trying to break down those amnestic barriers in the brain between like their memories essentially, or those neural networks that they've created, these amnestic barriers, which is just like the barrier between like, This horrible information. Erin Lewis: Right. And your life experience and where you are today. Mm-hmm. So then you're asking 'em to reflect. Anytime you're asking reflective questions, they actually have to go back into their memories and think about it. A lot of times you'll see them answer very quickly and they don't think about it at all. Erin Lewis: Cuz they don't want, they don't want to. So if they're like, oh, just take a, you know, well it's not done. Okay, we'll just take a second and like, Would that be okay to sit with just for a minute this question, when did you know it was over? And then a lot of times once they can [00:26:00] track it back, they might be like, oh, I guess when I went to college, now all of a sudden they're remembering that they went to college. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Um, you know. Mm-hmm. Like, and that's with the more profound association like PTSD Association is, is more like they know they went to college, they just might not, um, I think in ptsd, I see a lot of times the emotions removed quite a bit unless they're like very volatile cuz they've been triggered. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Um, but with dissociative disorder sometimes it's like, yeah, I got this four year degree and it's like, who got it? You know, like someone in here did. And it's that level of disconnect, um, really it's the narrative phobia. Mm-hmm. Is what I would say in that client as well that you. You were talking about, um, scenario phobia, I think is really understated, clinically interesting. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. So I'm thinking as you're talking, um, so I've done some emdr, uh, I don't really practice currently, but, so as you're talking, I'm, I'm [00:27:00] seeing through that lens, the question I guess I'm getting to is like, how do we treat this right? Or how do you treat this? Mm-hmm. But I guess I'll lead with Do you use emdr? Erin Lewis: I, okay. So in my practice we do have, um, like my business partner does emdr. Mm-hmm. For instance, um, I personally do not treat with emdr. Sure. Cause I can't get, my cades are off and my eyes actually. Okay. And that would, it would probably make me suicidal actually, if I were ever to have EMDR therapy. So it's hard like, cause I got some neurological testing done cuz a part of having d i d is like, This isn't, I don't have this, this is okay. Erin Lewis: Bunch of lies like Sure, sure. Um, so you wanna disprove it no matter what. So I went through all of this, like neurological testing, and then they were like, oh, don't get emdr. And I was like, oh, why not? You know? Cause I was like, hmm. Seems like an, it's a trauma modality and, um, she said my cades were off and that I wouldn't be able to process the trauma that was coming up. Erin Lewis: It would just flood me [00:28:00] essentially. Interesting. Okay. Um, and I think that's why there's potentially like these hit or misses with emdr sometimes. It's like the best thing you've ever had with clients is just like, breakthrough. Breakthrough. Yeah. Um, so much peace. And then other times they leave and they have a suicide attempt. Erin Lewis: Mm. And it's like mm-hmm. I am not an EMDR clinician. Sure. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Um, I think that, I don't, I don't know how you would test the cades or whatever, right. Like, um, in the eyes, but how I treat all trauma, it really is through like an attachment lens, first of all. Mm-hmm. Um, I am, so I'm nar master trained, so that's a neuro effective relational model. Erin Lewis: A therapy, very attachment oriented and ifs, I think IFS is gold. Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, what's Dr. Harold Hong: ifs for, for people Erin Lewis: who don't know? Oh yeah. My bad. Uh, internal family systems model. Okay. Um, it's created by Dick Schwartz. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] And I think with, when I look at d i d, there are so many different neural networks. Erin Lewis: It's like sometimes C B T works for people, right? Like, I think with trauma there's a lot of like cbts, very top down processing right brain. Then to the body. I think you also have to do the body to the brain. Yep. Which is that somatic end. Uh, so NARM meets in the middle, like doing both of those. But, um, people with d i D usually have shock trauma, which I think is better treated by an s sep. Erin Lewis: I'm not an s sep, um, somatic experiencing practitioner. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think people with d i d have to be treated with. Several different modalities cuz like D B T Great. Not great a standalone though. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, dialectical behavioral therapy. Right. Uh mm-hmm. So a lot of times I'll send in with D I D a lot of times and a lot of other dissociative disorders, like O SST D, there are, um, comorbid eating disorders or substance use. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. And it's like, [00:30:00] well you can't be a specialist in everything. So if they have substance use, a lot of times I'll send them out to. I co-treat and like whoever specializes in substance use, I'll send them to a clinician for substance use, I'll work on the trauma piece or in eating, you know, the eating disorder side of things. Erin Lewis: Um, I send people out for that all the time. Mm-hmm. And then we treat them at the same time, cuz you can't just treat one or the other, treat the trauma, the eating disorder's gonna increase. Right. Treat the eating disorder, it's just like, then you're not treating the tra and then it's like the issue is still there. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. So, um, I, I essentially, it depends on like what the client is wanting, but usually my go-to is, um, internal family systems, neuro effective relational model, uh, and then other kind of se somatic experiencing practices. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And how do those things help your clients move towards recovery? Erin Lewis: Right, so defining recovery is, Probably the first [00:31:00] step of that que, because what I'm really sitting with is like a lot of practitioners are like, full integration fusion. That's where we're going with d i d. And it's like, I mean, would you tell someone with anxiety like, this is what I planned for you in your life. Erin Lewis: It's like, right, right. Yeah. Uhhuh con consent at first. Yeah. Um, so essentially, D B T, dialectical Behavioral Therapy. I send people to those groups all the time because like they do need skills, actual taught skills. A lot of times they come from families that it's like they were taught alcoholism. They were taught. Erin Lewis: Um, self abuse, or they were taught to abuse others and like, that's how you cope. And it's like, okay, well here are these very concrete skills that you can do, like dunking your head in ice water or something when you starts to build up. Um mm-hmm. So that helps in terms of actually being able, like there's a learning part of this for sure, like there's a learning curve of. Erin Lewis: Wait, [00:32:00] not everybody like drinks at 9:00 AM Oh wait, not everybody starves themselves for 15 days at a time. Like there's a lot of that kind of. Distance. Um, so they do need to learn the skills first to even be able to process the trauma. Um, that helps with the stabilization phase. Uh, you always have to make sure someone's stable before you just go diving into their deepest well of trauma, right? Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Or else it's, it's, they'll go poorly. Um, absolutely. And there's like a 70%. The statistic from the DSM is 70% of folks with d i d actually have a serious suicide attempt. Um, so it's like, it's very high. So it's, you gotta go slow treatment, slower is better and then half of that speed, and then like five times slower than whatever half of that speed is. Erin Lewis: And that's the speed you need to go with somebody who has d I d um, dissociative disorders in general, like O S D D as well. Um, [00:33:00] so yeah, the DBT helps with the skills the IFS helps with. Defining the neurological networks or the parts or, right. Like so ifs language is parts, everyone has parts. Whether you have a boatload of trauma or not, you have parts like, you know, you talk to your mom and a different voice and you talk to your best friend and you talk to your, uh, significant other than you talk to your boss. Erin Lewis: Like all these different parts coming into play. Mm-hmm. Uh, so the research on parts are really interesting. Um, this type of therapy, because it provides distance that you can actually start, um, having compassion again, it's like too much to have compassion for the self, right? Because, uh, now you've been built on a shame model. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. So it's like, oh, okay, well this part of me, oh yeah, that little kid part, ah, well that's a rough go and then you can have some compa, the right startings of that. Mm-hmm. I think it's great for that. It makes compassion less daunting cuz sometimes [00:34:00] compassion feels like horrible to someone who has d i d If they really, really believe that they are bad inherent inherently, even with PTSDs D um, yep. Erin Lewis: Trauma in general. Uh, yep. So those, so the ifs, I don't agree completely with any theoretical model actually, I. I side with some more than the other. So then I think where ifs I leave off, I, I focus on more of the immediate moment with Nam of like, well, what, like, let's talk about quality of life. Like what are you wanting for yourself? Erin Lewis: What does your recovery look like? Mm-hmm. What is your treatment look like? What are your goals here? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's like, I wanna get a job, or I wanna talk to people or, yeah. Whatever their, or I just don't wanna have flashbacks every day like, okay, well, like, let's start working towards those steps of whatever this looks like for you. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Some people are like, I want fusion if they've been on the internet a lot. You know, like, I want Dr. Harold Hong: like [00:35:00] TikTok. Oh, oh, come on. TikTok got a love. TikTok. Erin Lewis: I love tea. TikTok for like dog videos. Like those silly, like those park horror videos where it's like they're jumping over water and then they land on something. Erin Lewis: Yeah, yeah. Um, I've had Dr. Harold Hong: a lot of conversations with patients saying, I saw this on TikTok. I want to get checked out for it. So, I mean, it, it, it's, there's a lot of unusual perspectives out there. Um, but it's getting people. Out of their chairs and into clinics. Sure. Yeah. Uh, face to face with new providers. Dr. Harold Hong: So I think if, if people can handle the curve ball of, uh, redirecting the TikTok momentum, it could actually be really, really great. But I agree, it's, it's not like the the usual best first. Uh, step for people to take. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Maybe you don't want to just necessarily take your mental health advice from there, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah, yeah. Talk to a professional. Yeah. There we go. Erin Lewis: Yes. I think the, I think my reaction was [00:36:00] like, oh, TikTok is cause, um, the d i d community specifically, I steer people away completely from Reddit, completely from tech. Okay. Any, um, so there is about a 12 to 24%. Rate of malingering with d I d. It's being very fetishized right now. Erin Lewis: So at higher levels of care, huh? You're looking more around 20% or the higher ends. Wow. Wow. And I think a lot of times, like I have a lot of compassion for it. It does make me anger at one end, right? Mm-hmm. Like, mm-hmm. And like, sure. But like if we take a compassion lens, a lot of times people have been neglected and now it's like, oh, look at, look at this. Erin Lewis: Look at me. Totally. Meet this part. Meet the, and like, Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, it's true cuz there there are a lot of families where, uh, they're so busy that you can only get attention when there's a, a crisis, right? And they're, these, these are not bad parents. These are not malicious parents. These are, these are busy parents who have a lot of parties, many of which are their [00:37:00] children's wellbeing. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, but sometimes they're, they're missing like what the child's wanting or needing and like, kind of over reprioritizing. I gotta stay for college, I gotta pay the mortgage. But you know, a lot of times the kid, they just want your attention. Yeah, yeah. Erin Lewis: And they can only get it through crisis sometimes since, right. Erin Lewis: So it's, I, I see why it's happening. It's also like, cuz they could have a different dissociative disorder or they could have higher levels of suggestibility, which now they really believe that they have d I D. And like there are people out there self-diagnosing with d i d which is just like, it doesn't make sense. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Like you can't diagnose your own time loss if you've lost the time. Dr. Harold Hong: Right, right. Oh yeah. I, I've had a lot of interesting interactions with people, uh, who are like, I remember all of these things that I forgot. I think I have dementia and, and mm-hmm. There's always like a really fun conversation to have and, and then we'll, we'll do the objective [00:38:00] testing and give some reassurance, but, Uh, but sure you, maybe you don't have dementia, but there's something going on, right? Dr. Harold Hong: So maybe it's not d i d, maybe it's not dementia, maybe it's not a d h adhd, but there's certainly something treatable here. Uh mm-hmm. But the consent piece is huge. Like, can we agree to treat what's actually underneath these things that it's showing up as, yeah, Erin Lewis: the. I think consent is like the biggest thing. Erin Lewis: Totally. Period. Absolutely. Totally. And, and any treatment, um, that, that agreeing piece, cuz I've had to, because of my practice being so specialized in d a d mm-hmm. The triangle area, essentially even people from out of state, out of the country, they look to us to diagnose, assess, um, d i d and what we've, we've had an influx lately of definite malingering. Erin Lewis: Mm. And. So like there are certain tests for that, right? The series, there's the MFAs, there's, there's a [00:39:00] lot of these tests that we do Okay. To kind of point us out of like, okay, there are some things going on here. However, if they don't, if you look in terms of prognosis or like, are they gonna recover? Like what are the rates of this? Erin Lewis: If they don't admit essentially like that they're purposely doing something. The rates are very low in terms of recovery and treatment. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a lot of treatment failures over and over and over again. Mm-hmm. And then people become addicted to higher levels of care. And it's a very specific issue. Erin Lewis: And that is not my specialty. I do not specialize in, um, treating that. I'm just like, do you have d i d Do you not have d i d? Is it O S D D? Like what dissociative disorder or trauma is this? Mm-hmm. Um, and then I can treat that dependent on like, What they end up having with my specialty. But, or if they don't, I usually send them out because this is not the place then. Erin Lewis: Okay. But, um, [00:40:00] if anyone wants to, you know, treat malingering and specify, like it would be helpful for the area to have, which is, I don't know anyone that specializes in it. In malingering. Yeah. Uhhuh. I can't think. It's a tough one. Think of one. It is tough. Yeah. Um, Definitely a conversation to be had. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Uh, I know that McLean is really great about that. Um, it's a Harvard affiliated right. Hospital. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's just like we don't have McLean here. Right. Uhhuh. Yeah. So, but yeah, consent I think is a huge piece in any kind of recovery where I think the clinician is coming up to the clients being like, well, we have to integrate, we have to fuse. Erin Lewis: And it's like, If you don't have consent, like I've, so in the support group, I run about half, let's say a little, maybe a little less than half, but about half or so. Mm-hmm. Are [00:41:00] deciding towards like healthy multiplicity it's called, which is just kind of like, Nope, we don't wanna integrate. Like horrible things happened. Erin Lewis: And let's just function in this life. We want have a job, we wanna have a home, and these are our goals and we don't want to go beyond that. Mm-hmm. And it's like, okay, like I think about 65% of the clients I have, um, without d i d or dissociative disorders, you know, people come in for depression, they're like, I wanna get out of bed, I wanna do what I used to do. Erin Lewis: It's not that we always, um, Heal from like the underlying, they heal as much as they want to, and they're like, yeah, I'm good for right now, and I'll come back in a couple years or something. You know, like, yeah. And it's like, okay. Like that's, that's consent. They're saying, I want this much. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Erin Lewis: Right? Yeah, Justin Mclendon: right. Gotta meet 'em where they're at, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. So if you were, if, I know we're short on time, but if you were talking to someone who's, who feels a lot of gratitude about their progress [00:42:00] and, and their, their. About to say, I think we can meet less frequently, or maybe we don't need to meet anymore. Dr. Harold Hong: And they were to say, here's how I felt when I started and here's how I'm doing now. I'm curious, what might they say? Erin Lewis: So I've had, it's. All right, so I'm talking specifically with dissociative disorders. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Because I was like, well, that's big. I mean, it depends on what you're treating, but Okay. Erin Lewis: With dissociative disorders, a lot of times they're like, I feel more grounded. I feel more present with my family. Okay. I feel more here. Um, Or like, a lot of times it's st bringing that stability factor in. Like, okay, well now you have a job, or now you, maybe they don't have a job, but now they have friends and they never had friends before and they feel more grounded and able to pay their bills mm-hmm. Erin Lewis: And go to their doctor's appointments and mm-hmm. They're like, yeah, this is enough. And it's like, okay. Like if this is what is enough for you, Like, who am I to judge [00:43:00] that? Like, you're the expert of you, um, and this is your life, your treatment. Like, all right. But, uh, sometimes they'll also say things like, well, it depends like if they've done integration or not. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Right. Like sometimes they'll be like, I feel like a more whole version of myself. Um, and that's, that's huge. That's huge. And sometimes it's like very scary. So sometimes they do wanna take treatment breaks of like, I just need to like, Do nothing for the next three months and just go to work. Pay bills. Erin Lewis: Like, just live like a very normal stereotypical, go get the groceries. Yeah. You know, like, it's like, okay, sure. Um, like the doors open if you want to come back. Uh, but that's some of the things that they might say. Usually it's about being grounded and remembering and just participating in life instead of just, A lot of people have this like, observe observation or this observer kind of effect. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Um, And it's like, oh, I feel like I'm here in my body. Oh, look, I can look at my son [00:44:00] and like, I actually feel the joy in my chest. Mm-hmm. Instead of just like in my eyes or smile or it's like, okay. It's a more full embodied experience. That's awesome. Even if they still do have like neural networks that are split. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Like, all right, Justin Mclendon: that's progress. Right. So maybe in closing, um, If there's a family member, uh, of someone that maybe they're concerned that may be struggling with this or knows that they're struggling with, with trauma, or maybe there's an individual that's, that's listening to this, that, uh, is relating to some of this and saying like, oh, maybe this is what's going on with me. Justin Mclendon: What would be kind of like a advice or first step that you would encourage someone to take? Erin Lewis: Advice one, stay off the internet. Okay. There you go. Um, advice two. Seek a trauma specialist, specifically a trauma specialist. Um, and I, they don't have to be a specialist even in [00:45:00] dissociative disorders, honestly. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. Like anyone that really treats trauma and like, that's their focus. Mm-hmm. They understand that there are different parts. They under, they know what they're looking for and if it's something they haven't seen before, a lot of times I'll have, you know, um, People in the community, therapists in the community would be like, Hey, can I have a consultation? Erin Lewis: Like something's going on. Mm-hmm. So even if you can't find a dissociative disorder specialist in your area, which you might not be able to mm-hmm. That's okay. Like, seek out a trauma specialist. Okay. Specifically a therapist. Um, yeah. That's in terms of family members, like kudos to you if you're listening to this as a family member, right? Erin Lewis: Yeah. Like, um, And there are support, I think New Waters has support mm-hmm. For families. Mm-hmm. Right. We sure do. Dr. Harold Hong: Every once a night Justin Mclendon: That's right. From six to seven, Erin Lewis: look at that. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, it's an amazing resource, honestly. So, uh, I think it's, it's a, a real gift for the community and, uh, all are welcome. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: And [00:46:00] NC cutting edge counseling? That's right. Erin Lewis: Oh yeah. Yep. Definitely. We have support groups. Um, I do a lot of research and we're, I have a research team, then we are creating new treatments for group therapy, specifically for d i d. Okay. Um, and then my business partner is working on, um, new treatments for B bp D um, oh, wow. Erin Lewis: Borderline personality disorder. Mm-hmm. Very cool. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So how many, um, clinicians do you have in your Erin Lewis: practice? Oh, we just hired some, um, somewhere between eight to 10. Eight to 10 ish. That's great. Um, and we're hiring more. We have to turn away work a lot. Okay. Actually, so we're still hiring. Um, For trauma specialists specifically, or anyone interested in trauma mm-hmm. Erin Lewis: Treating, yeah. Trauma, but that's great. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: In network, out Erin Lewis: of your network. Oh, blue Cross Blue Shield in network all the way. Okay. Oh, nice. I remember. Good. Yeah. I, you know, blue Cross Blue Shield in this area is huge. Um, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So definitely Blue Cross or we have [00:47:00] self-pay. Okay. You know, but definitely, um, Yeah, check us out if you feel like you want an assessment. Erin Lewis: I do assessments, even if I can't, usually my caseload is full. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do assessments and send people back to their primary therapist and then talk to the therapist and like, Hey, this is what this, this, and this test has said and stated, and this is likely what's happening. And we can tailor a treatment plan, um, even if they don't work with me. Erin Lewis: Also, Natalie struck, um, Also specializing in associa disorders as well. So like the personality disorder slash d I d kind of crossover. Okay. Um, but yeah, if you look us up, just be like, Hey, I need an assessment. Cool. Cool. Yeah. You know, we do this all the time. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: Well, Erin, thank you. Really appreciate you coming to hang out with us today. Erin Lewis: Thanks for having me in this whole studio. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Justin Mclendon: And Dr. Hong, always pleasure. Dr. Harold Hong: [00:48:00] Always. Yeah. Thank you Aaron. Yeah, so glad to have met you and Absolutely. I think this is, this is so important, what we're talking about here, and I hope that people are plugging in. Erin Lewis: Yeah. I appreciate the lens y'all are taking towards trauma and treatment and recovery in general. Erin Lewis: It's absolutely, it's needed. That holistic version. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. It is. Very passionate about that. And, um, I feel like we just see that more and more with people, right? As, I mean, I think it's so easy to focus on the current presentation or the current set of problems that someone is struggling with, but you know, if we can just kind of pause a little bit, look a little bit deeper. Justin Mclendon: I think that there's just so much commonality with a lot of things being driven by trauma or just a deeper place in general, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah, Dr. Harold Hong: yeah. I mean, one thing I, I love about this place is, Um, I think there, there are tr, there are certain therapists who are cut from like different claws and like, so once, once you have that trauma like perspective, like once that's gotten into like how you see and [00:49:00] hear and from the treatment plan, you, you cannot unsee it. Dr. Harold Hong: Right? Right. Like can't, there's something about your, the way you experience world, it'll always be different now. Mm-hmm. And, And then it's real interesting when you're working alongside therapist who doesn't see it. Right. We've all been there. Yeah. And, and it's, and it's, you know, it's like you feel, you feel yourself like containing, uh, like something that really wants to get out. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. Um, and it's not the best feeling to be honest, but when you're working with other people who see it, it is, it's very exciting. Yeah. Right. Erin Lewis: It's like the energy. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And that's, that's definitely the lens that, that we're bringing here because, uh, like there's another therapist, uh, uh, Paige and, you know, she shared this thought that, you know, where there's addiction, there's trauma. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah, absolutely. Um, because like the addiction is a way of, in, in a lot of ways, it's a way of disconnecting from reality, which has a lot of overlap with dissociating. [00:50:00] Mm-hmm. Uh, because they are trying to medicate the severe pain. Of ordinary living that's happened in their daily life. Yeah. And I can't blame them for that. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Um, but we're here to help them find like new ways to deal with that pain in a way that's peaceful, uh, sustainable, healthy, creates connection. And it's, it's terrifying to people though, because they're thinking like, what the heck are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but if no one, uh, can see it and at least like bring them to a, a vista point to look at what's possible, I don't know if they're gonna find it. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. And so this is like a huge, like, step forward in, uh, getting people to where they actually want to be. Much faster, much safer. So that's, that's why I love being here. There you Erin Lewis: go. Yeah. That trauma lens is so important. Once you have, like you said, you just, it's like you see the world through that lens almost. Erin Lewis: Mm-hmm. I think it [00:51:00] provides so much more compassion for humanity. I Dr. Harold Hong: agree. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. And, and we do a lot to, to de-stigmatize trauma and say, you know, like trauma is, Is something that gave you a dysfunctional set of rules for how you experience yourself, how you experience the world around you. Dr. Harold Hong: And you know, it could be something, you know, violently criminal that happened to you, like, you know, God forbid. Um, but it could be, um, something as, uh, seemingly non-traumatic as like an over-involved, over supportive parent, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Yeah. And over involved, over supportive parent. Like we've all, many of us have been there and we know how, how annoying it is and, right, right. Dr. Harold Hong: And it created a lot of pain. Like, cuz it's, it's a, it is a form of control, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And being controlled by another human is unsafe. And danger creates tension and stress. And that is pain. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So this is, there's like a direct line from that to, to drinking, to self-medicating this pain.[00:52:00] Dr. Harold Hong: And I think it's, it only helps our patients to be just realistic about, about that. Mm-hmm. Right. Erin Lewis: I agree completely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks. Show Notes We are delighted to have Erin Lewis joining us on our Finding New Waters podcast. Erin is an accomplished trauma therapist with a particular focus on dissociative disorders. She is a co-founder of NC Cutting Edge Counseling, PLLC, an organization she established together with her business partner, Natalie Strzok. The core purpose behind the inception of this group practice was to empower individuals grappling with profound trauma with more resources. It specifically offers a haven for those suffering from dissociative disorders.The stigma attached to Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) is a particularly dense one, and Erin is determined to penetrate that by ensuring every team member at NC Cutting Edge Counseling, PLLC undergoes regular and direct training on dissociative disorders. Her vision extends to diminishing the stigma associated with DID globally. To achieve this, she not only emphasizes the importance of educating clinicians on dissociative disorders but also endeavors to reduce stigma by candidly sharing her own experiences with DID.Erin is also dedicated to offering effective treatments for individuals with dissociative disorders and trauma. In her leadership, she exemplifies transparency and authenticity, shedding light on her own dark corners as well as aiding others through their struggles. Her ultimate objective is to foster a sense of connection and vitality among individuals, starting with helping them navigate their own haunted terrains. Erin's Links: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-lewis-327b11b2/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-lewis-327b11b2/) ⁠https://directory.narmtraining.com/north-carolina/raleigh/narm-master-therapist/erin-lewis⁠(https://directory.narmtraining.com/north-carolina/raleigh/narm-master-therapist/erin-lewis) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!