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Finding New Waters is a podcast exploring addiction complexities. Personal stories and expert interviews offer understanding of challenges and hope for recovery. It's a safe space to comprehend addiction's impact on individuals, families, and the community. Watch & Listen Subscribe A Podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of addiction, recovery, detox and the journey to a healthier lifestyle. New Episodes Every Week | Subscribe Today Finding New Waters Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video New Episode | Start Watching Sam Quinones: The Stories Behind America’s Drug Epidemic Sam Quinones Subscribe Finding New Waters is a podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of addiction, recovery and the journey to a healthier lifestyle. Through interviews with experts, personal stories, and resources, we aim to provide an understanding of the challenges faced by those struggling with addiction and inspire hope for those in recovery. Our podcast is a safe space for people to gain a greater understanding of addiction and its effects on individuals, families, and the community. + More Info

In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. < Back to Episodes Finding Joy in Sobriety: Dylan Starrs on Purpose, Relapse, and Building a Life That Lasts 39:43 min | Dylan Starrs | Finding New Waters In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. He shares how he stopped “auditing” recovery and finally put real sweat equity into his sobriety—through mentorship, structure, and showing up every day for his community. Dylan also reflects on music, golf, grief, purpose, and what it really means to stay connected to your own recovery while leading others through theirs. Subscribe “Sobriety isn’t something you receive. It’s something you build.” – Dylan Starrs Show Notes In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. He shares how he stopped “auditing” recovery and finally put real sweat equity into his sobriety—through mentorship, structure, and showing up every day for his community. Dylan also reflects on music, golf, grief, purpose, and what it really means to stay connected to your own recovery while leading others through theirs. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Dylan’s Backstory – From musician to mentor • [04:00] Relapse, Recovery & Reinvention – Losing everything, then finding hope at St. Christopher’s Inn • [10:00] Discovering Community at Jaywalker Lodge – Starting a podcast, giving back, and finally surrendering • [15:00] What is Mountain House? – A structured aftercare program for young men in Arizona • [20:00] Sobriety Isn’t a Gift—It’s Earned – Dylan on emotional graduate school and putting in the work • [25:00] From Rockstar Dreams to Real Purpose – Music, mentoring, and helping men heal • [30:00] Recovery as a Lifestyle – Having fun sober, staying right-sized, and showing up for life • [36:00] Final Thoughts – Family recovery, teaching through experience, and building legacy Key Topics Covered: 1. The Myth of the Quick Fix – Recovery doesn’t come from receiving—it comes from building 2. Emotional Grad School – Why true sobriety takes time, work, and reflection 3. Relapse & Redemption – How Dylan found grace, humility, and mentorship in unexpected places 4. Structure, Joy & Community – Building a life you don’t want to escape from 5. Staying in Recovery While Working in Recovery – Boundaries, self-care, and staying teachable Guest Bio: Dylan Starrs Program Director, Mountain House Recovery Dylan Starrs is a musician, recovery coach, and the Program Director at Mountain House Recovery, an aftercare facility for young men in Flagstaff, Arizona. After years of chasing fame, relapsing, and restarting his life, Dylan found long-term sobriety through structure, service, and connection. Today, he helps young men navigate life after treatment while still pursuing joy through music, golf, and community. 🌐 Website: https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com(https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com/) 📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mtnhouserecovery(https://www.instagram.com/mtnhouserecovery) Resources Mentioned: • Mountain House Recovery: https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com(https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com/) • Jaywalker Lodge: https://www.jaywalkerlodge.com(https://www.jaywalkerlodge.com/) • 12-Step Meeting Finder: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this inspiring episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we sit down with Leah Wright, the heart and soul behind Wake Monarch Academy. Leah shares her deeply personal journey that led to the creation of a pioneering recovery high school, offering hope and tailored education to young individuals striving for a life beyond substance dependency. Tune in to discover how Wake Monarch intertwines healing with learning in a supportive community committed to its students' success. < Back to Episodes Wake Monarch Academy: A Beacon of Hope with Leah Wright 49:39 min | Leah Wright | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we sit down with Leah Wright, the heart and soul behind Wake Monarch Academy. Leah shares her deeply personal journey that led to the creation of a pioneering recovery high school, offering hope and tailored education to young individuals striving for a life beyond substance dependency. Tune in to discover how Wake Monarch intertwines healing with learning in a supportive community committed to its students' success. Subscribe Addiction is a family disease, and you need recovery too. Find a meeting that works for you and start going."- Leah Wright Show Notes Join us on a profound journey with Leah Wright, the visionary founder and Executive Director of Wake Monarch Academy, in this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast. Leah opens up about her personal trials navigating her son's addiction, which led to the creation of a transformative recovery high school dedicated to adolescents fighting substance use disorders. With a mission rooted in the belief that recovery must come first to lay the groundwork for all future success, Leah details how Wake Monarch Academy provides a nurturing environment for students to chase academic, personal, and professional triumphs. This sanctuary of learning and healing is more than just a school; it's a community where young individuals regain strength and build a future. Discover how Leah's unwavering faith and extensive experience in education culminated in a resource that fills a critical gap for families and their loved ones on the path to recovery. For more information and to support their mission, visit Wake Monarch Academy's website at ⁠Wake Monarch Academy⁠a(https://chat.openai.com/c/www.wakemonarchacademy.com)nd learn about the philosophy and people behind this life-changing institution. Podcast Website: ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 Apple Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠ Youtube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw Youtube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ Linkedin: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery Tiktok: ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠. Join us on this transformative journey! Transcript Leah Wright-1 Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] If you could leave a potential family member or a potential, client or somebody that's struggling with kind of a nugget or something that you wish that they could walk away with, what would that thing be? Leah Wright: Here's what I consistently find, including myself, right? Families forget, they get so wrapped up in their loved one, right? Leah Wright: That's struggling. They forget about themselves. So even if it's putting out like. No one can do recovery for you, right? You got to do it for yourself. You got to want to do it. Don't do recovery for somebody else, right? Do it for yourself. And that look, that could be the whole family and that you can't do it for someone else. Leah Wright: But find the resources, find somebody who gets you because, unless you've walked in these shoes, it's very hard. To understand, what someone's going through unless they've experienced it, even though we all have different journeys. So that would probably be my best thing is you do knee recovery and do whatever you can to find that support of what [00:01:00] that journey looks like for you, right? Leah Wright: There's no set path. Leah Wright: Good afternoon. My Durgie, and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Leah Wright: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Justin Mclendon: Thank you guys for joining us for a new new episode of finding new waters podcast. Today I'm joined by Leah [00:02:00] Wright, who is the executive director of the Monarch Academy. Justin Mclendon: Did I get the name of the Wake Monarch Academy? Wake Monarch Academy. Yes. There we go. Correct. I'm so happy to be here. THank you so much. Yeah. It's been a long time. I feel like we haven't seen each other in a while. Leah Wright: It has been. Yeah. It's been a few years, right? It's been a few Justin Mclendon: years. Justin Mclendon: Feels that way. Yeah. Yeah. So I thank you so much for joining us. I'd love to start out with just what brought you to, I know Wake Monarch Academy, I know just talking to you over the past, several years is, been a big passion of yours, something that you're very passionate about watched from afar as you built it and watched it come to fruition. Justin Mclendon: And so just first question is, what brought that interest and what led you down that Leah Wright: path? Honestly, personal, a personal experience with my son. Yeah, he was, when he was struggling as an adolescent, we couldn't find any help. And we didn't know any family that was going through it. Leah Wright: We hadn't been around it. And with him, it started. With marijuana, we handled it, thought it was consequence or typical teenage behavior, but then the [00:03:00] behavior continued to escalate and we didn't know where to turn. And so everywhere we did turn and ask, looking up, treatment centers or multiple psychiatrists, psychologists. Leah Wright: We just, when we were first referred somewhere, I would call and they go how old is he? And I'm like he's 16 or he's 17. Sorry, we only serve 18 or above. So it was very isolating and all the while just watching the addiction continue to grow, from marijuana to pills to ultimately heroin addiction. Leah Wright: And I'll never forget he had been in and out of rehab and Refused to go back, was still using and we didn't know, we didn't know what to do. And there was a doctor that had a family practice that had an addiction specialist there. Okay. And so I said, hey, let's... Leah Wright: What do you think about going to talk with them? So he agreed, and they had an IOP. He said, I, I'll do an IOP. And I went, okay, awesome. And the doctor looked at [00:04:00] me and said you need recovery too. And I, the first words out of my mouth was like I'm good. I don't use. Leah Wright: I literally said that's what I was thinking. And she goes, no, like you need recovery. Addiction is a family disease, and you need recovery too. And I went. Okay, and she said, here's Alana, Narna, she gave me a bunch of different places. She said, find a meeting that works for you and start going. And so I'm like, okay. Leah Wright: So in my mind, still being extremely codependent on my son, I said you know what, you do your IOP and I'll go to these meetings and we'll do recovery together. Like I had still not transferred my own brain as to I need to make it about me. I, it was for me looking at, I'm going to support you. Leah Wright: We'll do this together and I'm not really thinking. About me really so going to the meeting. I remember, going around visiting and thinking, Oh, this is not helpful to me, but then that's how I met you was many years ago at healing transitions working [00:05:00] over there and went to their family support group. Leah Wright: And so there for the first time I was around other people that were going through what I was going through and not feeling alone and starting to listen to Oh, wow, they gone through the same things I have a couple of things that were really like mind blowing to me were some hard decisions that had to be made by some families. Leah Wright: And I remember thinking at that time Oh, I'll never do that. Like how could somebody do that, to their child and but just the more I got involved with it and really starting to educate myself. And then later the family support group said to me one day, she said, Leah, you're going to love your son to death. Leah Wright: And I will never forget that. It was life changing to me. And I started getting tools in my own toolbox and I remember hearing about recovery high schools in a conversation that we'd had at a [00:06:00] family support group, but at this time, our son was probably about 19, 20 years old at this time. Leah Wright: We've been dealing with this since he was 14. So many years into it. And I remember thinking, wow, that's a really cool idea, but there's none around here and he's already out of high school. Okay. It literally went in one ear and out the other. But about a year later as I continued to work on my own recovery, and our son had been not, very long. Leah Wright: I think he probably went, at that time, the longest he went was about three months. And then here we were just in this cycle. But it truly, I have a very strong faith for myself. And led. I felt like this was something that I should be doing. I fought it for a while because I'm like, Hey God doesn't use me to do what to start a school that even makes sense. Leah Wright: I was getting ready to retire actually that same year from being an educator of 30 years in Wake County public school system. So I'm like, I'm getting ready to retire. I'm like, Yeah, I'm going crazy. Like [00:07:00] I want to help others. I don't want others to go through what we did as a family But like this is not gonna be me But I fought it and the more I thought it the stronger it began so on a Sunday afternoon. Leah Wright: I had not watched the film, Generation Found and I told my husband Jimmy, I said, I want us to watch this film together, this documentary together about, I didn't even tell him what it was about. I said, I want us to watch it together and then afterwards I'm going to tell you. Why I wanted to watch it with you because I knew if I didn't have his support to do this I don't know how I could have done it. Leah Wright: And so I literally bought through the whole documentary because all I could see was how our son would have thrived in that environment, um, wishing that he had it. And so after the, documentary is over, I sat and I went the reason that I wanted to watch this with you is. I feel like I'm supposed to do this. Leah Wright: I have no idea how to do it, what to do, where to turn, but I need your support. [00:08:00] And so he was on from the very beginning. And then the next person I went to was our son who at that time was living in an Oxford house. And before he got kicked out of that one, but I went to him and I said I feel like I'm supposed to do this, I'm gonna start researching and I hear there's a Charlotte school that's also been, they're a couple of years ahead, but they are getting the school open and some reach out to them, but if I decide to do this, are you gonna be okay? Leah Wright: Cause I know people are gonna ask me, why are you doing this, right? And in order to tell them that, I'm going to have to share our story. Are you going to be good? And from there, he said, yeah I'm going to be good with that. And so once I had those two, then I, reached out, started gathering information, and talked to their executive director. Leah Wright: She was the founder, not executive director at that time, and said, how did you do this? And so they, just as we did, started, we did screenings of [00:09:00] Generation Found at multiple places. I remember that, yeah. Started telling everybody what we were doing, what was the process, wanting to build a team, anybody interested, and helping us come join the team. Leah Wright: And we're meeting, this day and this day. And started working on our non profit application, and so that took a while. But We had my very first meeting was May 7th of 2018 with a group of seven of us some from my family support group my husband was there the youth pastor and An addiction professional that I worked with our son And who had actually was very involved with the healing place, which is now Healing Transitions. Leah Wright: Very much valued what he had to say. And so he was at that first meeting. And then a year later, almost or a year plus, July 17th of 2019, we became an official 501c3 nonprofit. Then our goal was to open up in 2020. We had just found a location and we're starting [00:10:00] inspections. And then... So that could, that put a big, stop on everything and what could we do? Leah Wright: So basically we lost our team because how can he, it was hard to delegate what to do if no one could go anywhere. So the ones that remain was the board. And so the board very hardworking board, what could we do? While no one can meet, we can't do anything. So we started working on like a strategic operating plan. Leah Wright: What's our handbook going to look like? So things that we could do on a computer, on Zoom that we didn't necessarily have to meet. And would send revisions and what do you think about that? So that's what we did until things started to open back up again. And as soon as they did, we started inspections cause we weren't totally sure if we could even do the school there because of all the inspections that needed to be done. Leah Wright: And we had started, but then couldn't finish. But fortunately for us, the inspections turned out okay. We had to do a little bit of [00:11:00] upfitting, but. We were able to open. So then was like, okay, here's our timeline. So we opened a year later. So we did our ribbon cutting June 30th of 21 and opened in August of 21 with two students. Leah Wright: So it was just myself and another staff member. We hadn't found our, the recovery coach position yet. So we're like We can do this. We've talked to other recovery high schools. We can contract with another treatment center. So we actually contracted with Greenhill recovery. So I was like healing transition. Leah Wright: Greenhill is I know one of these two, we've We have met and interacted before, but we contracted with them to do our check ins in the morning. So check ins where you touch base on mental health topics, recovery, and that's what we did until the first, that fall. And then we were able to actually find that perfect person, your recovery coach, who, started in January of 22. Leah Wright: Okay. Yeah, I know Justin Mclendon: Ian. That's awesome. Is he still with you guys? Yes. That's [00:12:00] great. Leah Wright: How about that? He's an amazing individual. That's awesome. And has just really helped to build a program and has wonderful relationships with the students. That's amazing. Justin Mclendon: That is amazing. Yeah. Sounds like a long road. Leah Wright: Long road. Yeah. Long journey that honestly looking back like I would never want to relive or wish on any other family, but I will tell you, there's so many experiences and feelings of, especially new in recovery, a lot of these families are just at the very beginning, right? Only been with it a few months, so I can relate a lot to those. Leah Wright: Feelings, especially time of send your child off to rehab and okay, good, they're fixed. They're fixed. Yeah. They're good to go. I remember all of those same failings. And so it makes, I can relate to them and guide them through the process. But instead of them waiting and years into it, like we were not knowing where to turn, like they're immediately connected to resources. Leah Wright: We have family support within our school as well. So yeah. Addictions of [00:13:00] family disease. So again, learning from my own experience of saying, Hey, you need to go to weekly support groups, find one that works for you, but here's why, give them the why behind it. Because we're not going to be a good fit for a family. Leah Wright: If a family comes and says fix our child, cause we're not a treatment center. We support the treatment, right? But we are not a treatment centers, if a family says, fix my child and they're going to sit back and not do anything, then we're not going to be a good fit. So I'm very upfront in sharing that information through a tour. Leah Wright: There's a process for enrollment, but when we enroll a student, we know that they want to be there and willing to work a program of recovery. So Justin Mclendon: You mentioned you're not a treatment center, right? I know that, but so I'm wondering maybe a next a good next step is what is Wake Morn Ark Academy? Justin Mclendon: Obviously it's a recovery high school, but what does that look like? What does the student look like? What did they engage in? What does that Leah Wright: look like? YeS, a safe and supportive environment for a student in recovery, but honestly, so [00:14:00] much more. Yes, working on the sustained recovery. Leah Wright: Yes, trying to give them a college ready academic program. That we, I, as a school, like I report to the Department of Administration. Which there's really no set curriculum. I could make it whatever I want to make it. Interesting. But for us, we didn't want families to look that they were getting less or like a step down for academics. Leah Wright: Cause we knew a lot of these students would be coming from our public school system. Sure. So I'm like, I really want to have it. And I being the board, the organization, let's make this where they're really getting a step up because with all the individualized instruction that they're giving in addition to recovery, but let's have it a college ready program. Leah Wright: So we, what our requirements are, what. a regular school system. So we look at what DPI does and then that's what we work towards. We also have on dual enrollment with Wake Tech. So our juniors and seniors can take classes while at Wake Monarch, but they're [00:15:00] getting college credit just like they would have in a regular high school. Leah Wright: So I really tried to build it up to this is actually a better program, coming here because of what we're able to offer. And so that's what we did for our students. But Our students, not only, again, recovery academics, but it's teaching them to be a well rounded individual. What are, what's an important part of recovery? Leah Wright: Exercise is an important part of recovery. One of our amazing community partners is Neuse River CrossFit. Okay. And so our amazing coach, Christy Hagen, who you might know in recovery herself has been with us since the very beginning. So she's our coach, but many of our gym classes have turned into like recovery pep talks. Leah Wright: And that's our gym class. We go twice a week. And. Students work to the best of their ability, as long as they're trying, like not doing it as not an option, right? But doing it, but watching them even involve, evolve there, right? And the competition, friendly [00:16:00] competition, between the students and Ann. Leah Wright: We're in there as well, staff doing the best that we can as well. But another part of important part of recovery is giving back. We have integrated service learning, because we want them to know there's someone else besides yourself. And how you learn that is when you serve others. Leah Wright: We have multiple community partners that on Wednesdays, we do what we call Wednesday Wellness. We go out and we learn, so we're learning something, but then while we're there, then we're giving back. And so we keep track of those volunteer hours. So for example, we're involved currently with a bit of pleasure horse school. Leah Wright: Oh, okay. And so we go there, we split the students up because we're, grown, quite a bit. And so half of our students are learning to ride. Other half of our students are doing groundwork and things like that with the horses. And then afterwards, then they're all pitching in, cleaning water buckets, mucking stalls, doing whatever. Leah Wright: That's great. And we keep track of [00:17:00] their volunteer hours. When that ends, then we'll be involved in another organization. Learning while we're there, but also giving back. We've done a place at the table. We've been involved with Maggie Cain and her group. So the students have greeted, they have bus tables, they have, prepped food, they have done a variety of things. Leah Wright: We've done things at the food bank. We're going next week with the food bank to the state fair. Oh, wow. We're on there. collection can food drive the students help them with sorting the cans that they need. And then while we're there, then we have some fun together, that team building. Leah Wright: So we'll have a little bit of time at the fair together and eat some fair food, but we do that something on Wednesdays about the, throughout the year and relate it to our curriculum whether it's even art. We were at the summer, we were at the museum, North Carolina museum of art. doIng our Wednesday wellness music class. Leah Wright: We went to rock and roll high school in Apex. Oh, cool. That was our music class. But while we were there, students filed papers, [00:18:00] they swept, they cleaned windows. So the idea is of that, like, how good you feel when you help someone else. And it was, it's amazing to hear it. I'll never forget one of the students. Leah Wright: Came while we were doing something. He says, Lee, I gotta tell you this. He has like, when I helped him, like when I'm doing this, I feel good about myself. And I went exactly, absolutely. Exactly. But for them to realize that instead of, everything we do here is for purpose. I tell them that all the time. Leah Wright: Like you're getting credit for lots of things, but we're, there's a reason behind what we do, but for them to realize it, like they get it, Justin Mclendon: that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. So do is there certain criteria? It sounds like they obviously are struggling with substance use disorder, but are they? Justin Mclendon: Do they have to go to residential treatment first? Are there any kind of criteria that they have to meet before they can be admitted? Great Leah Wright: question. So most of these students are coming from a residential treatment center or IOP. So having some treatment in place, because again, we are not a treatment center and they need that. Leah Wright: [00:19:00] So if I have had families call and I'm like tell me a little bit about what's going on and I can share with them. I'm like, Your child, I have lots of, not lots, for the adolescent community for resources for treatment is limited, right? Absolutely. I'm able to share with them tell me about your story, what's going on right now? Leah Wright: Your child needs help that we're not going to be able to provide. Let me give you some resources. So I've put families in touch with, depending on where they are, I said here's an IRP, talk to the director, here's a treatment center, talk to the director, and then the professionals, because they are in treatment, let them. Leah Wright: Help you and decide what's best for your family. And some of these students I've worked with for over a year before that. In fact, one just recently enrolled. I've been working with his family for over a year now because of that same process. And, but once they get there, the student has to want to be there. Leah Wright: And they have to have at least 30 days in recovery. So they're [00:20:00] usually coming from a treatment background, 30 days in recovery, and willing to work a program recovery, but wanting to be there. And wanted to be, student term down, for things that we do there like random infrequent drug screenings, like there we're not, we don't do it to catch you. Leah Wright: That's not why we're doing it. We're holding it for doing it. Because you're accountable to yourself, you're accountable to your peers, your parents, your caregivers, staff, absolutely. So I have to be willing to work a program of recovery and by doing that and going through the process of a tour and then an interview, I always say, don't let that word scare you like, but it's the purpose of it is to make sure all questions are. Leah Wright: are answered and that we're a good fit for you guys as a family, but that you're a good fit for us. And based upon that information that we gather, then we enroll a family or not. But sometimes, it comes to where I'm able to have to say, look, our doors are always open. We want to help you, but we cannot [00:21:00] do recovery. Leah Wright: For your child, right? Absolutely. And so when they are willing, to work a program of recovery, you'd know that we're here and would welcome you at any time. We also have a community to protect because I can tell you that the students that are here are working on a program of recovery. Leah Wright: So we want you to, come back when you're ready and sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't, Justin Mclendon: but I guess the hope in that situation is that, like you said, you guys will be ready when Leah Wright: they are essentially. Exactly. Exactly. And our age limit like is 13 to 21. We did that purposely early on. Leah Wright: Like you didn't cut up 18. Now, because of that scenario, I remember having a discussion with the board going what if we have a senior, right? Yeah. In and out of treatment. And not going to school even though you should be by law, but maybe doing online school, not doing well, like what if, and what if they just can't get it until later? Leah Wright: Yeah. So that's why that reason behind it was 13 to 21. Okay. Come when [00:22:00] you're ready because you can't have education. If you don't have recovery. Absolutely. And, parents are like worried about, Oh, I'm getting behind or they're not where they should be. And I'm like, look, I know this sounds weird coming from an educator or, that's my profession, but I'm telling you not to worry about the education. Leah Wright: I know what we do here. I know that this, we can catch the students up and where they should be, but there's not a time limit. And they'll be ready for that when they're ready. And sometimes there's Okay. I'm like, the education will come, but I always explain if you can't have education, if you don't have recovery. Leah Wright: So let's get solid in that. And then that education will come. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Do they work at their own pace or is there are they assigned to grades? I'm curious as to what the kind of the academic Leah Wright: part of it. So we have rolling enrollment. So and modified year round. So the most that these students are ever out of school or away from us, as two weeks. Leah Wright: Okay. So our first year, a lot of it's been trial and error, [00:23:00] like what works, what doesn't work. And three weeks is just too long for these kids to, to be out. They, and as much as they don't want to admit it. structure. Yeah. They want the structure to the day and they need that and they thrive on that. Leah Wright: And so we were modified around and so they come and totally lost my train of thought. What was the question? Oh my goodness. The academics, you said. Academics. Yes. Thank you. So ninth through 12th grade and we start them off, we'll get the transcript from there. school and we'll map out a a program to where they, to catch them up. Leah Wright: Cause most of the students are behind to catch them up and then a plan to graduate. And with students being ninth through 12th grade, they're all over the place. So that was something we put a lot. A thought into early on is how are we going to meet the needs of these students 9th through 12th grade when having multiple teachers like hiring a teacher to teach history for one student like that just financially [00:24:00] doesn't even make sense, right? Leah Wright: So we looked at various online programs and had an evaluation, excuse me, from Wake County. Teachers said, if you could evaluate these various programs based on the content area, based on the curriculum, what's gonna be best, what online program will be best in your opinion? . And so from that, we went with a particular, it's called Edmentum EdOptions, online education platform taught by North Carolina certified teachers. Leah Wright: And then we have two teachers there. So we have a full time North Carolina certified teacher and a part time North Carolina certified teacher. And it's the only way, too, that we could offer accredited classes. So again, looking. Into the future, right? We didn't want one of our students to be in a situation where that particular college, if that's what they chose to do, said these classes aren't accredited, you're not, you can't come here or you need to go do this. Leah Wright: We didn't want to put the student in that position. So that was another reason that we [00:25:00] went with this particular program to be accredited in that way. And so our teacher sits down, maps out a program with them, and we started them with two classes. And then we, the teachers gauge, some of these, they're behind. Leah Wright: A lot of the students are difficulty focusing or, because there's usually like a mental health component there too as well. And so they go at their own pace. We want them to be successful. And so we also tell parents that oh, I want them to do honors, AP, I'm like, let's start with this. And let's see how your child handles it. We want them to be successful. We want to challenge them, but we want them to be successful, right? And sometimes that is slow because most of the school experiences with these students have not been good. They've been suspended, expelled. And they hate school, they don't like school. Leah Wright: They like the idea of our school because, it's cool. They realize they're going to do academic work. They just don't realize that, when they're not doing it yet. So when they [00:26:00] know like our expectations are here but they're attainable, but we're going to work at your own pace. We want you to be successful. Leah Wright: And it's, that's another transformation. That's amazing to see. And the praise of Oh my God, I did it. Like I got an A exactly, you can do it again. And then many times they're like, they can handle the rigor. And so they want more challenging. So then we're able to add another class and then it is gone. Leah Wright: And yeah, we got students on honors classes. We have students that are taking weight tech classes. So it's a process, it's like I tell parents, you may have. 20 plus things you want your child to do better, but let's do one thing at a time. Yeah, absolutely You know, are they in recovery check? Leah Wright: Yeah, are they in school check? Are they working at on academics check like one thing at a time, you know If you want them to take you know, an honors class, let's get them there. We have the time and Justin Mclendon: especially like you mentioned, I would imagine a lot of those A lot of those kids do have, they're coming from situations where they weren't doing well in school. Justin Mclendon: Very similar to [00:27:00] what you said. And I would assume it probably takes some of that to build up that confidence. It's just, just small bits of success for them to be able to start to realize that they can do some of this, right? Leah Wright: Yeah. Yeah. It was when one of our students came, had, who had not. Leah Wright: been successful. It just really had a bad attitude towards school, doing school work, but was willing to be there, knew they had to do school, this particular strategy school made an A, came down like high five, Leo, guess what? And so it's again, confidence, building that confidence of yeah, you can do anything you set your mind to do. Leah Wright: Your past does not define you. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? Look what you're doing now. How awesome is that? And building their confidence up to where okay, I can do that. I can be successful. That's fantastic. I can go to college if that's what I choose to do. That's amazing. Leah Wright: It's like I said, it's a transformation of the whole child. Not just recovery. Yes, this is a safe and supportive environment, but there are just so many other things that we're, working on that is not, it's just [00:28:00] like subtle, right? Building their confidence. But when I tell you like the transformation, like the student that they came in to where they are now, especially if we've had them. Leah Wright: Some students we've had, a couple of years right now. That's great. And to see them what they were to where they are now is. Yeah, it's incredible. And it's healing, for me, like I said. Oh, I can imagine Justin Mclendon: healing. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah That is amazing. So three years now you three years. Justin Mclendon: That's amazing Leah Wright: Yeah, how to start a waiting list like we're growing out of room, right? I mean we're we are just like the other day, like every room was full and I needed to have a private conversation. I'm like, okay I'll go into a room over here, that that's part of the churches that's not supposed to, not supposed to use, but there's nowhere else to go. Leah Wright: Yeah. So there's been a few situations I've had to text going, sorry, had to use the room, which is fine, right? But but yeah it's a, I guess a good problem now. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: sure. It shows that there's a need and you guys are working to fill it, right? Leah Wright: Yeah. Which is great. Leah Wright: And the students are bringing other students. That's [00:29:00] amazing. In and out. And so that's your best kind of referral is when, who's actually living the program, of the students and the parents that they're sharing with other families about this program. So then, okay, I'm gonna call and get some more information and it just goes from there. Leah Wright: That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: I love that. So are you guys thinking about other locations or things like that in the future or Leah Wright: expanding? We're the eyes are open, let's put it that way. The eyes are open and just actually had a conversation this morning, just be on the lookout, we can make it work by growing, a little bit more, but again, That needs staff. Leah Wright: So that's where, it's not just location is why we have a waiting list. Really the main reason is that we're at a point where we need to hire more staff. Okay. And we're just in a position that we need to do some other things, as well, because, the majority of our budget we have to fundraise. Leah Wright: Now, and so that can be, that's challenging. We have a gala for recovery coming up on November 4th at McGregor Downs Country Club, so that's our largest fundraiser. We're going to [00:30:00] reevaluate after that fundraiser and see where we are, that's great. We want to continue to grow because the need is great. Leah Wright: The need is great and, any opportunity that I can talk about the school. So thank you again for giving me this opportunity or go to businesses and, do a short presentation of what is a recovery high school opportunities like the international overdose awareness day for the fifth year now was able to speak and the students were able to speak and share. Leah Wright: So opportunities like that just to get the word out. Even if it's just for awareness, of this is what a recovery high school. Looks like, right? Because there truly needs to be a recovery high school in every county and state. Honestly. Justin Mclendon: That's what I'm thinking as we're sitting here talking is that, thank goodness, right? Justin Mclendon: That you guys are here and that we have that, that resource here locally. But, to your point, I could see where this would be valuable. Literally everywhere. Yeah, Leah Wright: everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, even the mental health. Even if it was just that recovery, maybe if it was the mental health, just that these kids need that. Leah Wright: That one on one, attention, but also the flexibility, [00:31:00] that, Hey, I can take a break from academics and go talk to recovery coach, or I can take a break and, say, Hey, can I come over here and, color, draw, whatever, take a mental health break, yes, you can and come back to it. Leah Wright: And so we have the flexibility to do that because we meet the students where they are. Meet the families where they are, and we go from there. And each of the staff members looks at it at a different lens, recovery coaches and recovery knows the walk, right? And so he's able to really relate to the students and students relating to him. Leah Wright: And then even though I'm not personally, in recovery, but I am as a family member. I'm able to look at it from that lens as well. And then our staff has been touched by addiction in one way or the other. We've all been touched by it just differently. And we're all be able to just give our own input as well. Leah Wright: And very much involved in the program. To make this really truly work to it also take the staff of being approachable, you know That's why I mentioned Leah like [00:32:00] we're not by our last names like it's breaking down the barriers, right? Leah, Ian first names being approachable, but also Showing them that we can be vulnerable to Like we're staff as part of the check ins in the morning if it's on a topic. Leah Wright: I mean they've seen us cry You know, except Ian. Ian is the only one, which we laugh about it, but totally, I give him a hard time about that. But no, all of us have cried because if we're asking the student to be vulnerable about difficult situations in their life and we aren't, like, what does that show them? Leah Wright: Yeah. So when we break down those barriers and show them like, yeah, we've been through trauma too, right? We've been through some hard things in our life too, but. This is what we did. This is how we overcame it, right? And you can too, I remember even recently I was talking about purpose right and what they want to do and I'm like What is it? Leah Wright: What is my [00:33:00] purpose in life, and so I was able to shine The light on it going on like i'm decades Like older than you sure. I said i'll be honest with you. I was in Like I love teaching, right? I loved being in the classroom, but I was probably 25 years. I remember having this thought 25 years in, right? Leah Wright: Of teaching and remember distinctly thinking, and this was before, right? This is before I even thought about recovery. What's my purpose? Is this what I'm supposed to do with the rest of my life? Like when I retire, like what am I supposed to do? I'm not teaching. I'm fairly young, right? What's my purpose in life? Leah Wright: So by sharing with a student I was in even a career still trying to figure out my purpose. Hands down. Do I know my purpose now? Absolutely. I'm passionate about what I'm doing. That's great. But I can also look back over my entire life. of going, of things that have helped me get to where I am now, right? Leah Wright: And [00:34:00] so my purpose may not come until like years later, right? And that's okay. Do something that you love, right? And if you're in a, yes, this is my job. But if you're in a position where it doesn't feel like a job, like you're showing up at work every day that doesn't feel like work, like you, that's your purpose. Leah Wright: There you go. I like that. So that's what we're able to bring to it. So it's a collective experience, and then the kids bring in. Their own experiences and helping others and that's an amazing thing to see because again, recovery is best in community. Absolutely. So when you see another peer help another peer and it's it's powerful or lead a group, it's powerful to see. Leah Wright: And I can Justin Mclendon: imagine that is such a big part of it because I would assume the students and that's got to be a big part of it. Leah Wright: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes specially. if We have a student that we know they're really good at art, or they're really good [00:35:00] at, whatever else we can connect students and, or work on hey, can you... Leah Wright: Talk to the student a little bit more. I think if maybe if you sat down and showed him a few things or showed her a few things like I think you'd really be able to help them, and sometimes these kids don't look at themselves as leaders, but then when you're able to point down like you are leading look what you did, look, you did this, that is leadership. Leah Wright: So getting them to look at themselves as cause a lot of them are really hard, that, that's, that There's a lot, been a lot of things that they've been having to work through that where they haven't had a very positive Self image about themselves and so being able to turn that around of going look When I know you don't see this now, but when I look at you, like I see so much potential and this, look at your gear, good at this. Leah Wright: And you're good at this. It's hard for them to see that. But again, all what you're doing is just planting the seeds, that.[00:36:00] Hopefully over time, and that's another reason too behind community partners is them being around other adults that are, positive role models for them that are coming from different careers. Leah Wright: Yeah. Some in recovery, some are not, right? But sharing their life experiences to... To help these kids to plant seeds, to, help them see that what we see that we're hoping that we're going to get to the point like they see that within themselves. And it just takes time. It takes time to build that within them, Justin Mclendon: that's amazing. Yeah. Have you had anybody graduate and move on to Leah Wright: the next step? Yes. We had our first formal graduation this past June. Had a graduate. We've had another senior graduate actually in August. That's awesome. And from that, we're developing again, looking at that and going, okay, we want them to work at their own pace, right? Leah Wright: But we can't do like multiple graduations like all throughout the year. Again, like reaching out to the associated recovery high [00:37:00] schools, other recovery high schools. So how have you done your program and getting their feedback, which is how we've developed ours. Our model is based on. Leah Wright: other successful recovery high schools. Absolutely. So reaching out to them and going, how have you handled this? And most recovery high schools are part of their school system. So that's been a little bit harder to, to relate to that. But what we and staff came up with is that most recovery high schools, like we'll have one graduation ceremony, right? Leah Wright: So that we set, we're going to have one formal graduation ceremony in June. But. If we can set up our students to finish their WMA classes in the fall of their senior year. Get enrolled in Wake Tech. So they're taking a college class, they're earning college credit, and several of the classes you can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. Leah Wright: So if they, take a, college credit, then it could also count as one of their high school credits, right? So we try to set that up best the way you can. But ideally, if we can set [00:38:00] up a senior to be done with their WMA classes and that December finish up a weight tech class, then we have our break, right? Leah Wright: Come back after, holiday break in January. They would come to check in the morning they would do their academic classes, which now would be all weight tech classes because they would, re enroll for the spring. Okay. Then they leave around 1130 and go to an internship of a career choice that we've helped them figure out with as part of our life skills block. Leah Wright: That's great. So that's what we just finished up with life skills, did a whole lot of things with like career building and looking at like your personality. Like these are the characteristics that would be really good in this, these particular fields and really have them look at research that particular job. Leah Wright: So have an area of interest. So that's been another involvement of searching out community partners, which we still need, help and bright, great of like you're interested in interior design. All right, let me go see if I can [00:39:00] find a community partner that would be interested in doing something like this. Leah Wright: And this actually just happened recently. Didn't know this particular she has a community partner now, right? But it was like a friend from a, through a friend and said, and would love something, interior design, he's very artistic, loves to do things like that, what do you think? Leah Wright: And so I ended up getting connected. to this particular, organization and talk with the owner and said, Hey, we haven't done this before. But this is what it, what we want it to look like. Would you be open? And so she was came in, talk with a student. And when I tell you Like the sparkle in his eye. Leah Wright: Yeah, that's cool. And that, to see them talk back and forth, oh, this is what I did and this is what you do. And like the conversations that I'm I'm like that's cool. Sitting back in my head going, this is cool . That's awesome to see. Yeah. And so hopefully he's gonna be doing that, in the spring with her. Leah Wright: So that's what we like to do with this premise behind it. [00:40:00] We are working really hard on Yes. Recovery education. But it's a scary world out there, so how can we slowly transition them in before they get that diploma? And so this was a great way to go, Hey, they're here for recovery support. Leah Wright: They're doing their academics, but then they, as a senior, the big deal, leave campus. Go to a career, whatever that internship looks like and then when we do have the graduation in June Like they've been out of they've been connected to WMA but half of their day They're also like in the real world, right? Leah Wright: Whatever that looks like for them So that is a program that we're developing As we you know as we speak, you know as a need has arised, but that's what we want to do. I Justin Mclendon: mean, that's huge, being able to get some, internship. I think as we know, colleges are just becoming much more competitive and things like that. Justin Mclendon: Just internships in general I think put you give [00:41:00] you a good, leg up there. But also just that, on the job training type experience Yeah. And being able to just see what it's like being in a work environment. That's just so valuable. Yeah, Leah Wright: exactly. That's amazing. Leah Wright: Exactly. So we're still working out the details, . But to be able to go out and shadow something and this is what we say. You may get into that and think that I don't want to do anything like this, right? But then guess what you haven't lost like you're not two years into a degree if that's what you choose right and just say I Don't want to do this and now you do a complete, degree change And now I've added more time like if you can figure that out or we can help maybe help you figure that out now You're not losing anything all you've done is just gain experience and still earn college credit, still on track to get your diploma as originally, right? Leah Wright: But now you've gained something else. And and that's what we're hoping to do. That's amazing. Now, if we have a student come in and say, I want to be an astrophysicist, then that might be a little bit more challenging. [00:42:00] I'm like, I was trying to keep it within this realm, but you know what, would I go out and try to, I'm like, you know what, if that's what you want to do, let me. Leah Wright: Let me see what I can find out. Yeah, absolutely. Who knows, so Justin Mclendon: I'll say, and we can talk a little bit more offline about this, but as you're saying that we would be happy to support any way that we could too. If there was somebody that needed an internship or something like that, that maybe was interested in like the mental health or the substance abuse field, we would be happy. Justin Mclendon: Guess Leah Wright: what? I absolutely have a student which had She wants to be a nurse, but she also wants to work in treatment. We should talk about that. Let's talk about that. Yeah. And we're close. That's great. Yeah. Okay. I'm excited. I'm excited. You never know, right? Justin Mclendon: You never know. Yeah. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love, we would love to support Leah Wright: that. Absolutely. All right. That offline, we will, we'll talk and develop this together, right? Yeah. I love it. Because when it, something works out, I know that there'll be other students that will come up and since we're not planning on going anywhere, right? Leah Wright: Yeah, absolutely. Don't be another nurse [00:43:00] or whatever, or doesn't even have to be a nurse, could be something else. There are different ways they can, even if it's the business side. Yeah, 100%. How do you run a business? How do you start a business? Yeah. There's so many different angles that we can look, but that's the value of community partners because without the community helping us, build, this, I don't know where we would be. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah. Justin Mclendon: Leah, I really appreciate you coming in. I do always like to end these, I'm developing a little bit of a theme here with this, but, or a pattern, should I say? I like to wrap these up with, so the main reason for the podcast is, for to provide You know, education resources for like families or anybody that's struggling their self with a, with an addiction or mental health issue. Justin Mclendon: Obviously some professionals watch it as well. But if you could leave a potential family member or a potential client or somebody that's struggling with kind of a nugget or something that you wish that they could walk away with, what would that thing be? Leah Wright: Here's what I consistently find, including myself, right? Leah Wright: Families forget. [00:44:00] They get so wrapped up and their loved one, right? That's struggling. They forget about themselves. So even if it's putting out like no one can do recovery for you, right? You got to do it for yourself. You got to want to do it. Don't do recovery for somebody else, right? Do it for yourself. Leah Wright: And that look that could be The whole family and that you can't do it for someone else, but find the resources, find somebody who gets you because, unless you've walked in these shoes, it's very hard. To understand, what someone's going through unless they've experienced it, even though we all have different journeys. Leah Wright: So that would probably be my best thing is you do need recovery and do whatever you can to find that support of what that journey looks like for you, right? There's no set path. It's perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Justin Mclendon: Yes. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming to chat with us and look forward to chatting with you again soon. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Leah Wright: Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Bye.[00:45:00]

Join us in this compelling episode as we sit down with Kelli Underwood, an esteemed psychotherapist and owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Through her vast experience and commitment to lifelong learning, Kelli shares profound insights on trust, healing, and the transformative power of therapy. Discover the importance of building rapport, accessing inner wisdom, and creating a safe space for clients to embark on their healing journey. < Back to Episodes Embracing Psychotherapy with Kelli Underwood 53:26 min | Kelli Underwood | Finding New Waters Join us in this compelling episode as we sit down with Kelli Underwood, an esteemed psychotherapist and owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Through her vast experience and commitment to lifelong learning, Kelli shares profound insights on trust, healing, and the transformative power of therapy. Discover the importance of building rapport, accessing inner wisdom, and creating a safe space for clients to embark on their healing journey. This conversation will leave you inspired and empowered to trust yourself and embrace transformative therapy. Subscribe "I think the greatest gift I can give a client is the ability for them to trust themselves better, to trust their wisdom, their knowingness, and to know that they have what they need inside." -Kelli Underwood Podcast Transcript #015 Kelli Underwood Kelli Underwood: [00:00:00] I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying to expand my toolbox. I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what one client. Kelli Underwood: We will be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what? The three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge and I am the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Kelly Underwood. In 2013, Kelly moved to Durham, North Carolina and launched her own business to be aligned. Graham Doerge: Today she has a thriving psychotherapy practice and continues to train and consult with school districts, counselors, agents, agencies, and companies. Kelly has been training therapists in transformative insight imagery, T I I, since 2000, and is the sole owner, owner of transformative insight imagery in all facets of her business. Graham Doerge: Kelly embraces diversity and is a passionate ally to all who [00:02:00] experience discrimination and prejudice. Thank you very much for being with us today, Kelly, it's a, a pleasure to have you here. Thank Kelli Underwood: you so much for having me. I am just thrilled to be with both of you. Absolutely. Graham Doerge: Absolutely. So I love starting, uh, these podcasts off, obviously, uh, getting our audience to know our guests a little bit better. Graham Doerge: Yep. And I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into this work and, and just how, what drove you to enter the behavioral health field. Kelli Underwood: Sure. Would love to tell you that story. Um, well, ever since I was a kid, I was sort of the friend that everybody would come to. Mm-hmm. To talk about whatever was stressing them. Kelli Underwood: And so I got a lot of feedback growing up that I was a good listener, that I should work with people, that I should be in a helping profession. So that sort of always had me thinking I would do something with people in a helping profession. Right, right. Then when I was a senior, I was really struggling as a senior in high school and I ended up advocating for myself with my family. Kelli Underwood: To [00:03:00] go and see my own mental health counselor Wow. To help me. And that was a life-changing experience. To have a counselor, really, for the first time in my life, I felt really listened to, validated, seen her without judgment accepted for what I was going through and how I felt, even though I was just a teenager. Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. And the, the presence of a supportive and safe person. I was, I remember sitting in a session early on with this therapist and saying, I'm gonna do what you do. Yeah. For a living, right? This is, this is what I wanna do. Right? And then the third thing that really just made it clear what kind of degree I would get and where I would go next was in undergraduate school I signed up for an intro to social work class. Kelli Underwood: Mm. And I still remember the first day in the class. Great teacher and I just, they were talking about the values and the ethics and the knowledge and all the different [00:04:00] things that social workers can do, and I was like, this is me, right? This is it. Yeah. This is, this is my life path. Yeah. Yeah. So that was how it Graham Doerge: unfolded. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's, it's always amazing to me how people get into this work. And obviously, you know, a lot of us have had our own struggles and, and difficulties and come out the other side and then, you know, made it our career and our life. And that was kind of my story. Um, and, you know, but I, I do think that, you know, I, I, similar to you in a lot of ways, there was, you know, certain guys along the way in my journey that I just saw and, and you know, that were, um, walking the walk, right? Graham Doerge: Yes. And I was like, man, if I can, you know, Be like those guys. I mean, what an amazing way to make a career, you know, helping people, saving lives and all that. So, I mean, it's, it really is incredible work. Um, and, and so, um, just so humble to be able to do it. Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. I am right there with you on that. I feel like I tell people all the time, this is sacred work. Kelli Underwood: It's sacred. We are on the [00:05:00] front lines trying to really impact people in a positive way. Mm. And. Yeah. It's really meaningful and purposeful work. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To witness somebody's journey, to be beside them in their roughest times and watch them rise out of it is just such an honor to me. Yeah. Like truly. Kelli Underwood: Yep, Dr. Harold Hong: a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So in, in your work, it began with having this really positive experience with a therapist? Yeah, and uh, what I have run into, like, I do therapy as well, um, and I do a lot of medication management and, and I have a lot of clients that are there for meds, but they have a therapist and they're not really sure if it's a good therapist. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Um, they, they go every week, it's fine. Um, but they've been going every week for a year or three years or 10 years and. They're not really sure if this is what they need. They just know that it's helpful and they go, yeah. But I think a lot of [00:06:00] people would be interested to know what is a good therapeutic relationship or what does good therapy look like? Dr. Harold Hong: And you know, I think everyone has a different answer to that question and different answers resonate with different people. So I'm, I'm always interested to hear from our guests, uh, to the benefit of our audience. In your experience, what is a good therapeutic relationship look like? Kelli Underwood: Yes, I, I'm really happy you asked this question and it's really interesting timing because I spent the day yesterday online training folks with the topic of how to be more effective in psychotherapy. Kelli Underwood: And the two major points I invited people to focus on as therapists is one, we know from the research that what clients remember about our sessions. Long term is how they felt in our presence. Hmm. How they felt in our presence. Hmm. We know that rapport and empathy and the [00:07:00] connection are the key, and if somebody is not feeling connected with me, I'm a big believer they should as a customer. Kelli Underwood: Seeking mental health services, they should be able to have the experience of a therapist, that they really have enough connection to, enough safety, enough trust, mm-hmm. And enough rapport that they then can become willing to be vulnerable enough. To do the work. Right. So I think the rapport and the ability to be a real person with professional boundaries, to be genuine, to really practice deep listening and being who you are in your own personality, but, but bringing a conversation. Kelli Underwood: I'm a real person. I get a lot of feedback from folks I've supervised. Interns and staff, [00:08:00] um, that they've been told in other supervisions or trainings or even their education that they have to be really kind of constricted in this session. And I just don't think that's real. I, I work in the field of trauma and I have for 25 years, and people want to feel a real person in front of them, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. A real person who really cares, who's not giving them a bunch of baloney, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that's the first piece. The second piece is, do you have tools, competencies, right. To help the person, right. With what they're coming to you for. Right. Right. And what clients have told me is, I appreciate that you really are beside me. Kelli Underwood: You really care about me. You don't have to know everything, but I also appreciate that you give me tools, strategies, you [00:09:00] help me to think about things differently and try new things, and I am getting better. Mm-hmm. Because you're teaching me things I didn't know before. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of therapists miss the boat on the fact that they are a teacher. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. Whether you're cognitive, behavioral solution focused, you know, internal family systems, art therapy, it doesn't matter what your technique is, find something that's aligned with you mm-hmm. That you're good at, and then have a menu of options for people. Right. And the other thing I said yesterday in this training is we need to be mindful as therapists that we're not asking people to come to our comfort zone. Kelli Underwood: We need to be where the client is and join their comfort zone. Right. Right, right. Yeah. So I think all of those things are important in what you're saying. Graham Doerge: And what kinda questions would, would you pose to families or, or, uh, tell them to ask, uh, a potential therapist, you know, when they're trying to find a good fit. Graham Doerge: Right. And right. Is there [00:10:00] anything specific that you can Kelli Underwood: lean on? I actually, often, when I can't take referrals, I will send people an email with some resources to do some research. And to feel more empowered and educated in what they are looking for and what is important to them without making assumptions about what that might be. Kelli Underwood: But you know, being able to say some very specific things about, here are the things I want. As outcomes. Mm-hmm. Um, here are the kind, here's what I think I would do better with. So I ask clients upfront, like, if you've had a past therapy experience, what did you like and what didn't really work for you? Kelli Underwood: Right. Mm-hmm. And then I'm honest about where I align with that and whether there's someone else who might be a better fit. Right. Right. Um, so I really think people should know. To, you know, they're not gonna know all the different techniques, but if, for example, they're reaching out to me for trauma, I'm gonna let them know we have all [00:11:00] these things now available. Kelli Underwood: You might wanna research what is. Mdr. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. Mm-hmm. You might wanna also look at some of the somatic centered psychotherapies, and then I'll tell them a little bit about what that is. We have, I was trained in somatic experiencing. We have sensory motor, we have all kinds of other things evolving now, like A E D P and, you know, lots of attachment based. Kelli Underwood: Therapies for parents with, with young kids. Mm-hmm. So I'll give them a list of, here's some things for you to maybe look into and see which ones of the, these sound like they might be helpful. Right. And then ask if the person is trained in any of these, ask what kinds of techniques they use and then go and look those up. Kelli Underwood: And does that feel like a good fit for me? Yeah. Right. Ask how. What their philosophy is. Yeah. If they are an attachment based therapist, if they value the relationship or they're more of a short term concrete, you know, there's no right or wrong here, but it [00:12:00] has to be the right fit for the person. And the client doesn't always know what they need. Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's okay too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I always tell clients, think of yourself as a customer. You have the right to choose a product that feels right Graham Doerge: for you. Yeah, right. A hundred percent. Right. And I even think. We do that really well here too, as well. And I think any good program hopefully does, um, where, you know, we get super granular on, you know, our aftercare planning and, you know, we're oftentimes looking at, you know, yes, this is gonna be a good fit program wise. Graham Doerge: But, you know, maybe more so who on the therapeutic team is gonna be a good fit with this specific client, right? Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Um, which is, you know, not always done. And, and listen, we can't do it a hundred percent of the time. Sure. Um, but we really, really do try to take that into account and, because I think that, you know, unfortunately a lot of the time we're kind of throwing darts at a dart board hoping that, you know, yes, this is a great program, but. Graham Doerge: Maybe you get set up with, you know, or your primary therapist is, you know, maybe they're very [00:13:00] green or just not a good connection. Right. It's not a good fit for in some way. Um, and that can really give you a very different experience than if you, you know, had somebody that you had a good fit with. Right, right. Graham Doerge: So I think it's so important, um, to look at those pieces. I love that you do Kelli Underwood: that. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you that you all do that here at New Waters. Yeah, because it's just really essential. So the fact that you really break it down to who's the right fit on multiple levels, I think is really gonna help people have a better experience. Kelli Underwood: And that's what we all want. That's what we're all in this for, is to help and Graham Doerge: listen, help people listen, is this is not a cheap endeavor, right. For families. No. And you don't wanna have, have to do this thing multiple times. Right. That, that's right. And so if we can kind of get through this and, and, and that can be the difference between a good experience and a bad experience in might. Graham Doerge: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Um, Kelli Underwood: it's important. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I even go so far when I have a, a potential teenage client. Yeah. Of asking the parent to please give their teenager choice. Yeah. To [00:14:00] please tell the teenager that they get to do a mutual interview with me. Right. And they get to ask questions and they get to, you know, let them, let them interview at least two different therapists and have some say Yeah. Kelli Underwood: In who they're gonna do this journey with. Right, Dr. Harold Hong: right. I think that's a key part of the good therapeutic relationships is like without safety. Yes. You can't be vulnerable. And I think it's, it's out there in the, like with the work that Bene Brown has done. Yes. The word vulnerability so, so popular. It's almost become like a, like a virtue by itself. Dr. Harold Hong: But I, I do a lot of work with clients and tell them, you know what, there's, there's a right way to be vulnerable and a wrong way to be vulnerable. Right. And vulnerability for vulnerability's sake is actually dangerous. Yes. And a big part of your recovery is learning how to be safe. Yes. Right? Yes. So, um, The, the essence of safety in therapy is, is consent, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Like you have the right to pass. Yes. Um, here's what we're gonna do. Here's how we're gonna do it. Do you want to go [00:15:00] on this journey together for this work today? And I think if, if there's no treatment plan, that, that's to me is a big red flag. Uh, if they're not saying, here's what we'll do, here's how we'll do it. Dr. Harold Hong: If someone can't put that into words or some type of representation for you, you're, you're really trusting. In, in one faith that this is gonna work out. Right. Um, and it doesn't have to be that way. I think it really should be like very, very transparent, like on the table for everyone to see. Um, so a big part, I'm a big advocate of is there treatment plan? Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. And a big and big part of safety. I love this thing you're doing with the, the adolescents is they have the right to pass or they have the right to decide. Yes. That's huge. Um, but I, I'm also really interested in hearing about the tools part cuz I think that's, Tremendous. And a lot of us are still in this old school therapy where we're gonna do this Freudian. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm mm-hmm. Just, just kind of sit back and be the blank slate and, [00:16:00] and you express yourself and suddenly you'll realize this epiphany about yourself. Yeah. Um, but it's, I, I can't say it's, it really happens and there's a reason why. A lot of psychodynamic people are in session three days a week for three to five years. Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. Um, yes. Uh, but if, if people are getting the tools, I think that is so interesting cuz a lot of people don't even know that you can go and work with a therapist to get tools. Right. That will change your life. Right. Like, can you tell us about the tools that you've helped your clients with? Sure. Kelli Underwood: Well, I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying. To expand my toolbox, I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what [00:17:00] one client. Kelli Underwood: We'll be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what, the three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe. Right? Right. Um, so some of the tools that I lean into, well, the foundational one for me for. 20 some years has been transformative insight imagery. Kelli Underwood: Um, and I also have, I think my practice has changed significantly as the neuroscience has really come out about how to bring the body and the nervous system mm-hmm. Into treatment. And so I definitely. Access Somatic Experiencing and Steven Porges Polyvagal Theory and Deb Dana. I really love a lot of her exercises about helping clients experience the different states of their being and helping them be able to more fluidly regulate and move through them. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Um, and the T II actually [00:18:00] has a component of really helping folks with that. I think mindfulness is valuable, but I think a lot of times, um, Well-intentioned therapists. We sometimes misstep with mindfulness and with traumatized folks it can be triggering if we're asking them to get really go into themselves before they're resourced and right. Kelli Underwood: Have enough resources and regulation. To go in with mindfulness. Mm. Um, because getting still, or getting quiet or meditating can also be really unsafe for some people. Mm. Mm-hmm. So, I think all of these things have to be catered to the person in front of you. I, I definitely value cognitive therapy. You know, working with who's narrating the story of the moment with clients, I have found very valuable. Kelli Underwood: T i I also has a, a big piece when we go into the more deeper eight step process of. Parts work, and I think that parts work. I know a lot of people are getting trained in internal family systems, but this [00:19:00] idea that we all have many facets to our personality, many parts, and in the world of trauma, I find this is one of the more powerful interventions that I see sustainable change in is when people can, whether they use art or the imagery or even more psychodrama practices to really. Kelli Underwood: Deeply access and connect like. That 10 year old self that went through that trauma and now they are taking care of those younger parts that did not get what they needed. I found that to be really powerful. Mm-hmm. Wow. Uh, so I do a lot of nervous system regulation kinds of things. I'm very experiential. Kelli Underwood: Um, I find that, and I'm very relational and attachment. Lens focused in everything I do, but I'm always, you know, I'm always incorporating, like Dr. Dan Siegel and um, Bruce Perry, and there's just lots of people that I really value. Mm-hmm. Um, his new book with Oprah, you know [00:20:00] what happened, right. To you is excellent. Kelli Underwood: Um, I was also trained by Steve Terrell and Kathy Kane in nervous system work. Um, they have a great book called Nurturing Resilience, so I use a lot of their techniques. So I really am fairly eclectic and I really have learned you have to pace the order of your interventions in the relationship. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: And in the context of where you are with that client and what they are ready for. Mm-hmm. Readiness is important. Yeah. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. I'm super ex, I mean, you covered a ton of ground. Yes. And, uh, I, I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to, to go through this journey, like maybe kind of step by step. Dr. Harold Hong: And so I, I, I think it's helpful to start with trauma because Yeah, just like, how do we think about it? We have, we have a lot of people. Who think, you know, trauma is something horrific. Yes. That happened to you. Yes. Right. But, but therein lies this, this big [00:21:00] issue because in the big world trauma, there are things that are truly horrific and there are things that are very subtle. Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. And not obviously traumatic and. Yeah. For some reason they just show up in your office and they, they say, I, you know, something's just not right. Yeah. Right. And so, I dunno if, if we could start there Yes. And see like how you would, how you would open up the conversation with them about trauma and how you would layer in the nervous system integration work or the, the other tools you're using. Kelli Underwood: Well, I'm a big believer that in trauma we always have some varying levels of feeling disconnected. I. Out of control and powerless. Mm-hmm. So I am really vigilant that I may, if I messed up, accidentally reenact some part of that with a client. So I am a huge, adamant proponent of collaboration choice. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. And [00:22:00] making sure clients feel like they have a voice with me. Mm-hmm. Because that runs contrary to trauma. Yeah. Always. Mm-hmm. If you have a voice, you feel heard, I am here beside you, but you get to choose what's best for you. So I like to start even with the idea of trauma with. Do, what do they think has been traumatic in their life? Kelli Underwood: Hmm. You know, we start where they are with their definition over time, with the psychoeducation and whatnot. They might start to go, oh, I think I had other traumatic experiences that I didn't previously identify as that. Hmm. So, I like the definition that, you know, one of my teachers, Peter Levi Levine uses, um, from somatic experiencing. Kelli Underwood: He says, trauma is anything that overwhelms. Your resources for coping. Mm. Now the key there is we all have different resources for coping, right? With the same event, right? So that trauma is not actually defined by, defined by the event. So, Mm. Right. It's defined by the [00:23:00] effect. So I think that's the first eye-opening thing for a lot of folks. Kelli Underwood: Wait, so I lived in a home where my parent was an alcoholic and they, they were sort of sometimes physically scary or violent. Um, so. But you may have multiple children in that home who were impacted very differently, right? Yep. Right. And that's because we all have different resiliency, different temperaments, personalities, resources, right? Kelli Underwood: So I love that Peter explains that. You know what happens in trauma is that something overwhelms our resources for coping and then it gets stuck. Mm. Right. It gets stuck in our brain. Mm-hmm. But it also really gets stuck in our nervous system and our body. Mm-hmm. And we don't get it moved through the system. Kelli Underwood: So that's where a lot of these body-centered techniques are helping people to move it. Into a new place. Mm-hmm. Sort of like a train that's [00:24:00] derailed and you're getting it back on the tracks and moving it down to the next station. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So, uh, you, you talked about feeling overwhelmed. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And then you also talked about feeling powerless, disconnected. Yes. And what's, what's the connection between those two points in time of two, how someone's Kelli Underwood: doing the two, which two Dr. Harold Hong: points. The moment of feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Or repeatedly feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Uh, beyond like stress beyond your capabilities, right. Dr. Harold Hong: And then showing up as an adult feeling disconnected, disempowered, yes. Frustrated. Kelli Underwood: Well, I mean, I think the truth is, and there are greater experts out there than me, but the truth is, These patterns get imprinted. Right? The overwhelmed. And so as a kid, you know, maybe you learned to just shut down and hide. Kelli Underwood: Or maybe you learned to, um, you know, you had a very intense [00:25:00] freeze response. Dissociation became your friend. Yeah. To leave something that was difficult and we are all brilliant. In our systems of protection. Yep. And so the first thing I want clients to understand is this isn't bad. Right. This is actually fantastic and brilliant that you know how to dissociate that you know how to shut down and disappear. Kelli Underwood: That you know how to go into fight response. Yeah. To protect all of your littles. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. This is great that you have these, we all have this internal alarm system that I, you know, our neuroception is constantly scanning. Mm. Am I safe right now? Is this dangerous? Is this life threatening or is this safe? Kelli Underwood: Right? And because our history is with us, I might be sitting here feeling like, this feels pretty freaking scary to me right now, to be sitting here with you all, and you might be over here going, this is great. Yeah, I feel really relaxed. Graham Doerge: Right. And, and everybody's response can be so [00:26:00] different. Right. And I think that that, like that obviously you talk about walking into a room, reading the room, that hyper awareness. Graham Doerge: Yes. Right? Yes. And where, you know, that can actually be kind of a positive thing for some, like, you know, my ability to walk into a room and read a room like that Yes. You know, can be a real advantage in a lot of times. Yes. You Kelli Underwood: know, all of these things are assets and sometimes. They harm us or our relationships. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the way I explain it to my clients is what we wanna do in therapy is help you grow your awareness of when it's helpful and when it's overactive. Mm-hmm. So I use the analogy of when I moved into my home and I had my alarm system installed. Yeah. The first couple months were treacherous because apparently the gentleman who. Kelli Underwood: Installed it, put it on too sensitive of a setting Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. And so when a bird would hit the window, unfortunately, or. There was construction behind the woods of [00:27:00] my house, and it was vibrating. The alarm was going off. Wow. And the cops were coming to my house. Wow. Uhhuh. Um, which made me feel good that they came. Kelli Underwood: Right. But this was problematic. Mm-hmm. This is a perfect analogy for pe, post-traumatic stress disorder. Right, right. Our alarm is going off all the time. Yeah. But it's not really. Something happening now, right? Mm-hmm. But the system is set so that it's, it's on overload, right? Yeah. So in treatment, what we wanna do is help that person feel more in control, have more power, more connection to themself and others. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. In. Oh, my, my nervous system can now distinguish. Um, for me personally, I did EMDR on a house fire that I survived. Wow. So what I remember experiencing doing that trauma treatment was it went from constantly, any time something smelled slightly burnt Mm, the iron was left on to, [00:28:00] to a candle, was blown out like four rooms away. Kelli Underwood: I would go into panic. Like, oh no, something's on fire. Mm-hmm. And through treatment, what we can do is we really help move through, heal, reset the system so that over time I don't freak out. Now when I smell a candle, right. I don't freak out. When the iron's on my brain, my body and my nervous system can now distinguish that smell from the smell of something's burning on the stove. Kelli Underwood: Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's what good trauma treatment can do for folks. Amazing. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And how does t i I play into all that? And, and this is something that, that you have created. Sorry. Sorry, Dr. Harold Hong: I'm just saying that light went Graham Doerge: out. Got it. Keep going. Okay. So, t i, this is something that you have created. Graham Doerge: No. Kelli Underwood: Okay. No, I did not create it. I, I, my greatest mentor of my [00:29:00] life and teacher and friend and became like a family member to me. Dr. Charlotte Smith is the creator of transformative insight imagery. When she retired. Um, she. She had been teaching and training folks in this for 30 some years in the Chicago area. Kelli Underwood: Okay. And she asked me to carry on her work and gifted me with, with all of her copyright and trademark material. Wow. Amazing. And so it has been my mission to get it out to as many therapists and. Clients and regular people because it was the first thing that changed my life and put me on my journey towards healing and wholeness. Kelli Underwood: Uh, I went to all of her retreats three, four times. Wow. Became an assistant and then became my own teacher of the work. And then, uh, in Chicago I did trainings and now I'm really starting to try to get back on online teaching, uh, for therapists and [00:30:00] retreats in person and online for anybody who just wants. Kelli Underwood: To do some self-healing. And so what I love about t i I is that it is so in alignment with my values and it's, that's why I think it remains foundational to all my techniques, which is to me, the greatest gift I can give a client mm-hmm. Is the ability for them to trust themself better. Mm-hmm. To trust their wisdom, their knowingness, and to know that they have what they need inside. Kelli Underwood: Right. Because addiction, mental health, the American culture mm-hmm. All tell us that what we need is out here somewhere. Right. We just need to get that thing right, that medication, that, that thing that's gonna fix us. Mm-hmm. And what I have found is the most sustainable healing I have seen happen in folks is when they realize they have what they need Right Inside. Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's what t I does. [00:31:00] So t i I, um, we, we start with resourcing folks and what's different than guided imagery per se, is that the imager, all the images are coming from them. I am not telling people what they image. Mm-hmm. So people are astonished. And surprised sometimes of what comes up in their own experience from their own history to support them, to provide wisdom or love or support. Kelli Underwood: And so there's a greater ownership over those resources. Wow. Cuz they're mine. That's my place. That's my wise guide. Right. And then we really work with clients on practicing in life here and now accessing those resources to shift you. So there are aspects of. Polyvagal regulation Pendulation from somatic experience experiencing. Kelli Underwood: So people will come in and tell me all the time, oh my gosh, I [00:32:00] got really triggered. And then I used my wise guide and I felt them beside me. Or I took four breaths of my centering place. And I did it differently. Mm-hmm. I broke the pattern. Wow. I was more available. My adult self came and took care of me. Kelli Underwood: Wow. Right, right. And showed up there. We also have people meet their best self, their highest self, and then we, in t I I, you can become anything. Hmm. So you can experience a whole new perspective, whole new insight that you never had before. You can learn that, okay, I'm really struggling right now. I'm gonna merge with that wisdom of my wise guide or that higher, higher. Kelli Underwood: Best self. Mm-hmm. And it's a game changer. Right? Wow. So we do this incredible resourcing and people own it. I find that people use it. They come back and they're telling me success stories. Mm-hmm. Which is why I love it. Yeah. Then when they're resourced and they're, they're a little stronger and they're ready to be a little more vulnerable and face those fears, we can go [00:33:00] into an eight step journey. Kelli Underwood: And that journey, I teach therapists how to do this because it's unlearning, because for therapists, Your job as a t i I co-facilitator is to get out of the way. Mm. Your job is not to fix it or solve it or come up with some great idea. Your job is to trust that the imager, their system, their body, their psyche will take them and do whatever they need to do to have the healing today. Kelli Underwood: Amazing. Mm-hmm. And to watch people do this. Changes their lives cuz they're like, I had no idea that's what I needed to do with that. I didn't know that my neck is tight all the time because I'm holding anger there. Mm. And now I have, I, I, I know what I need to do. To let that go or we go and free a lost self that got cut [00:34:00] off. Kelli Underwood: So back to what you were saying about trauma can be really obvious or really subtle. I've had so many people over the years free a lost self that they didn't even realize they had cut off from. Mm-hmm. That was a subtle, it was invalidating, A relationship was invalidating. They didn't get, you know, maybe. Kelli Underwood: They really needed affection as a kid. They really needed to be held, but they happened to have parents who weren't affectionate. Yeah, right. And so that for them was internalized as a child that I'm not loved. When in reality their parents love them, but they didn't receive it in the way they needed it. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. That can be traumatic, right. For a child. Right. And it's not a fault, it's not a blame, it's a statement that that can really affect people. Right. And their relationships in the future and children will blame themselves. Right. Right. So we have people go and they discover this younger self in the imagery. Kelli Underwood: And the imagery is five senses. [00:35:00] Plus it's so visceral. That people are amazed at how real their imagery experiences can be. Mm-hmm. And so it's very anchoring and they are in the driver's seat, and the co-facilitator is encouraging, reminding them of the resources they have, asking them things like, what needs to happen next? Kelli Underwood: Right. What are you willing to do? Who or what of your resources is available to help you in this moment? Mm-hmm. And so for me, it's so aligned. With what I most deeply believe about healing is when the client truly owns what they're doing and their choice. So, That's life changing, right? Yeah. That's, that's the ripple effect. Kelli Underwood: So I like to do things that have big impact. Yeah. I like to do things that are impactful. And so t i I has both the resourcing piece and the deeper healing transformation piece. And a couple other things that people have told me is [00:36:00] we've got mindfulness in there. People learn mindfulness, they learn regulation, and then they also learn in the eight step process parts, work body awareness. Kelli Underwood: They start to get insight that they never had before about what they're holding and where it's being held. Mm-hmm. And they learn ways they can shift that at any moment. And that's what I also love. People learn any moment. It's all available. Right? I don't have to be in front of my therapist to do this. Kelli Underwood: I have it when I'm at work. I have it when I'm at home with my partner. I have all these resources available. Graham Doerge: And, and are some of these resources, like, you know, breath work? I hear you kind of talking about a bed and what, what are some of those, you know, particular resources? Kelli Underwood: Well, can we do one? Yeah. Can we do one together? Kelli Underwood: Love it. Can we do the first one? Let's do it. All right, let's do it. So this is not. Graham Doerge: This is the fun part Kelli Underwood: that we talked about. This is the fun part. This is like, let's experience it. So even my, my, my people who helped me with marketing have said, you know, t i I is [00:37:00] really tough for you to talk about because it's an experience and it is so different for every person. Kelli Underwood: It's very hard to put to words. Yeah. So you have to understand that Dr. Charlotte Smith created this. In the 19 79, 19 80. So this was before a lot of the things that people tell me all the time, oh, it's sort of like this. Oh, it's sort of like that, right? Um, and so the first thing we do, other, other approaches have done as well, but I think it's how we do it in t i I that you might experience is a little different. Kelli Underwood: Okay? So the first thing we do is we find a center and that becomes our home base, our anchor for every process that we do. Yeah. And it's a place. Mm-hmm. And the really cool thing I love about t i i is its infinite possibilities. Mm-hmm. I see therapists open up to their creative side, like they haven't in years because you never run out. Kelli Underwood: Right? Like I've been doing t i i for my personal journey for 20 some years, and I have multiple centers, right? When [00:38:00] it's winter here, I go to the beach. Right? When it's summer, I go to the mountains, right. So I need different support. At different times depending on what's going on in my life. Right. And t i, I will reveal what you need. Kelli Underwood: What you need. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You will get what you need. Yeah. So that's the beauty of it. And as a therapist, I don't have to know that. I have to give the imager permission to know that. Right. Love that. Yeah. So all we're gonna do is we're just gonna, you can either pick a place you wanna venture to, or you can see what comes to you. Kelli Underwood: Right. You can keep your eyes open if that feels better for you, or you can close your eyes, whatever's gonna help you have a more full experience, right? Mm-hmm. And so what I like to say is imagine you're just pouring yourself to a peaceful, relaxing, replenishing place. It could be a place you've actually been to. Kelli Underwood: It could be a vacation place, it could be your dream vacation place. [00:39:00] It could be a place from your younger years. It could be a place you have access to right now, and you go to all the time. Mm-hmm. Choose a place you really love to be at for calm, for restoration. A place where you can catch your breath and then let yourself be there. Kelli Underwood: Let yourself be there. Kelli Underwood: Notice, what's the temperature here in your place today? Kelli Underwood: Notice how large or small your place is, Kelli Underwood: even notice how light or dark it is. Kelli Underwood: Take a moment to look around. What do you see or sense or feel here?[00:40:00] Kelli Underwood: What are the sounds? Kelli Underwood: Allow yourself to take a nice, deep inhale of the air and notice what the air is like in your place. I. Kelli Underwood: Take another breath and see are there any smells here for me? Kelli Underwood: See if there's something you wanna feel the texture of through touch. Kelli Underwood: Maybe there's even something you wanna taste. Kelli Underwood: Give yourself a moment to really enjoy your place [00:41:00] and all that it has for you here. Notice what starts to shift in your body with the support of this place. Maybe your breath has slowed, tensions releasing, and just let yourself have a few more moments. To enjoy all the here and noticing the shifts, Kelli Underwood: give yourself permission to come back and really be present here. If something starts to take you away, it's okay. Just go, oh, I'm gonna come back to my place now. Take a few more breaths. Feel the support filling you up. And you, as you look around you, you may notice there's, there's sort of a gift here, a gift of support, some [00:42:00] additional support for when you come back and be open to whatever that might be. Kelli Underwood: Can come in any form and then take a moment to set your intention. When would you like to come back here? When could it support you to drop back into your center and then be really honest with yourself? How will I remember to do this? Maybe I need to set an alarm or put it reminder in my phone, or just make sure I do it first thing in the morning or last thing at night. Kelli Underwood: Beautiful. Beautiful. As you're ready, slowly bring your awareness back to the chair, to the room, and just. Really noticing the difference. You can feel it in the room for all of us that we're just like more here. Right? More here. So I call that that's, that's like really great doorway into mindfulness, [00:43:00] into we, so let's, mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Let's just notice the diversity right here with the three of us, right? When I do this online, it's really astonishing. Now people put in the chat all the differences and where they went, right? Like, Did anybody have water where they went today? Not for me. I did nature. Any nature, any trees? Definitely Nature. Kelli Underwood: Mountains? Yes. Mountains. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Me too. Me too. And what, what sense was the strongest and clearest for you? Which one did you appreciate the most for you? Dr. Harold Hong: For me it was, I said this incredible moment where I took my son fishing. Ah. And it's the sound of him laughing. Oh, Kelli Underwood: I love that. That's so great. I love, that's so good. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. Graham Doerge: I think for me it was smell, um, So I, I kind of, there's this tree at our house in Texas that is this like beautiful live oak that's just sprawling and kind of has this like little nook in it that we do a lot of meditation and just sitting in [00:44:00] kind of the, the base of this tree and it's, and it's just so like, comforting, but it had this like, smell of like honeysuckle and I just had, I could, you know, sense it. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: So, It's really pretty amazing when we first start to open up Yeah. To what's inside us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And available. And so what I, I find so beautiful and precious is, okay, I, I have this. Mountain home that I love to go to, and I'm not physically there right now, but I was just there. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. Hundred percent. And I was seeing the sunset and smelling the mountain air and rocking in the rocking chair. And as far as my brain, my nervous system and my body are concerned, it happened, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hundred percent. So I got the same effect, even though it wasn't literal that I was there, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And so for, for folks to open up to, Whatever it is that has supported you [00:45:00] is always available. Yeah. Yeah. At every moment is sort of mind blowing. Yeah. It's mind blowing. Right, right. Yeah, it's amazing. So, so that's sort of a starting place. Then what we would do is we would really go to the next level of performance enhancement and practice, you know, with, with clients. Kelli Underwood: And so let's cue up into something that is a little stressful or anxiety provoking or triggering. Right. And let's start noticing how you know that you're getting triggered and where that shows up in your body. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're bringing in some of that somatic body-centered work, some of that nervous system work, and then we have people practice. Kelli Underwood: What would it be like to just take three or four breaths of a couple of aspects of your center right here? Right. When this happens mm-hmm. Just three or four breaths of the smell of the honeysuckle. Mm. Just three or four breaths of the sound of your son's laughter. Mm-hmm. Is enough to shift you. Right? Kelli Underwood: Like Deb, Dana talks about moving back towards ventral vagal, [00:46:00] where our home is. That's, that's when we're rest, digest, settled, able to connect, you know, present and anything that moves us a little bit back that way. Is regulating, right? Mm-hmm. Is Graham Doerge: settling and I don't think most people know that you can do that. Graham Doerge: Right? Right. Kelli Underwood: Know what you, most people dunno. It's these little micro moments. People think there's some overwhelming thing they have to learn three or four breaths of your favorite part of what you just did is enough to shift you so that in that moment you can do something different. You have more available. Kelli Underwood: To choose differently. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It could be the tone of your voice is different. It could be you pause before you speak. It could be you respond instead of react. It could be you walk away. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Totally. Well, and, and I, and you know, here, uh, at our site, we, we do breath work with all of our clients. Graham Doerge: Um, and it's always amazing to me because it is, Probably one of the most impactful, [00:47:00] uh, yes. Interventions we have here. Yes. And it's, you know, probably the cheapest thing that we do as well. Yes. So it's just, you know, it's amazing and because people go into it, you know, with not really understanding what, what it's gonna be all about. Graham Doerge: And they come out of it just having this like, transformative experience and it's really beautiful to just kind of give them a little glimpse of like, you know, this is out there and these are things that you can start utilizing and put in your toolbox. Right, right. And your Kelli Underwood: breath is always available. Kelli Underwood: Yes. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, I talk about recovery as taking radical responsibility for your wellbeing, like understanding only I can make myself feel the way that I want to feel or need to feel. Exactly. Actually, and but this what you're talking about and what we just experienced, it, it, it opens up this whole new layer, which is how can you take responsibility? Dr. Harold Hong: Unless you trust yourself. Mm. To take responsibility. Yes. Um, but when [00:48:00] you, when you take someone through an exercise like this, you, you're not telling them, you, you are showing them. Right? Like, or they're actually showing them themselves Yes. That they could do it. Yes. Right. And, and as they. You know, cause I'm like, wow, I did that. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah, I did that. Yes, Kelli Underwood: yes. It's there. That's what I love so much is exactly what you're saying. People start to get more confident. Mm-hmm. They feel like they have a, they have competency over how to manage the really hard stuff in life. Right. Okay. I have some things I can do. I have some tools, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And yeah, it brings confidence Dr. Harold Hong: as we're going through experience, I was feeling. I felt deep relief. Yes. And I also felt like a spark of like joy and energy and to be realistic, like we all need that sense of relief. Yes. From time to time, we all need that spark. Yes, yes. Of inspiration from time to time. Dr. Harold Hong: And if you grew up in a [00:49:00] place where no one showed you how to do those things yourself. Yeah. Alcohol is a good way to get relief. Exactly. Um, Adderall or like another stimulant is a good way to get that spark. Yep. And so, you know, those substances misused, like they're actually intended for a thing that we all need. Dr. Harold Hong: Right, right. But the use of those things is born out of this distrust. Yes. That I can do it. Yes. Right. Like I can only get it from out here. But when you're showing people No, like, You can take radical responsibility because you can realistically trust yourself to produce that. Yes. And that's, that's freedom. Kelli Underwood: That is freedom. Mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. Perfect. That is freedom. Yes. It's so Dr. Harold Hong: powerful that Yes. You know, it's hard to figure this out on your own. Right. But it's, Kelli Underwood: I couldn't have, right. If I hadn't walked into Dr. Charlotte Smith's retreat, I don't know that I would've figured this out. Mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Well, and we're finally talking about these things, right? Graham Doerge: Yes. And that's the point of, you know, having this [00:50:00] podcast is, is obviously trying to bring a little bit aware of awareness, you know, to folks that, you know. I, I feel super fortunate that. Listen, I went to treatment back in 2008 and I learned a lot of this stuff, but not everybody has that experience. Graham Doerge: Right, exactly. So, um, you know, for those of us that are kind of luck, lucky enough to have stumbled upon it, it's great. But, but everybody should know about this. Right? Right. Should be front page news. Right, right. Exactly. And Right. You know. Exactly. It's just unfortunately not. And, you know, um, obviously, you know, ob, you know, exercise and taking care of our body and all those kind of components, I mean, this is all so, so important for our overall. Graham Doerge: Wellbeing, right? Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. It's all important for our overall wellbeing, and it starts with that deeper healing, I find for so many folks is those internalized stories. Yeah. From our painful experiences of, well, I, I don't deserve this. Right. Do I deserve wellbeing? Right. You do. Am I worthy of it? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. [00:51:00] Um, am I lovable? Um, Is anybody gonna stay and not leave? Like, all of these things are under it. And I have just found that the trauma treatments and the transformative inside imagery can help people, you know, not just manage symptoms and create new behaviors, which is really important and helpful. Kelli Underwood: But let's go, let's go to the heart of the matter and let's, let's help you regrow yourself up from the inside with. Compassion and love and support so that you can say like I had a client say the other day. It's a really tiny voice now that wonders if I'm worthy because there's a much louder voice that goes. Kelli Underwood: Heck yeah, I am. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that isn't that what we all want? Yeah. Right. Yes. We want that part to be in charge. Yes. A hundred percent part that goes, yes, I am Dr. Harold Hong: worthy. Yes. Amen. Graham Doerge: Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation and, uh, so much information and [00:52:00] where can everybody find you? Your website? Graham Doerge: I, I gather. Kelli Underwood: Oh yes. My website is my name, kelly underwood.com. The trick is you have to spell my name the way my mother gave it to me, which is k e l l I got it. Underwood just like, yes, the singer and no, I'm not related, nor am I related to the actor Blair. There you go. Um, and, uh, I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, it's my name, Kelly Underwood, l c s w. Kelli Underwood: Great. And. Yeah, and I have, uh, some upcoming stuff going on. I'm actually just joined the platform of CE training and workshops. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna be doing an introduction to t i i on there for three CEEs in July. It'll be recorded. And also offer some introduction on my website through just a course that you pay for without CEEs for folks who just wanna experience it. Kelli Underwood: Perfect. Graham Doerge: I love it. Really such great information and thanks for coming in today. Thanks for having me. Um, and find us@findingnewwaters.com and [00:53:00] on all streaming platforms and we will talk to you guys next week. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much. Dr. Harold Hong: Thank you all. Show Notes In this captivating episode, we invite you to join us as we explore the remarkable story of Kelli Underwood, a passionate psychotherapist and the owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Kelli's commitment to lifelong learning and her integrative approach to therapy have allowed her to offer a diverse range of options tailored to the unique needs of each client.Together with Graham Doerge, the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, and Dr. Harold Hong, the medical director, we embark on a deeply insightful conversation with Kelli, delving into her personal journey and the driving force behind her career in the behavioral health field. Key Takeaways: • The Power of Compassionate Listening: Kelli's childhood experiences as a trusted confidant for her friends led her to recognize the value of being a good listener and propelled her towards a career in a helping profession. • The Transformative Potential of Therapy: Kelli shares a life-changing moment when she sought therapy as a teenager and experienced the profound impact of being genuinely heard, validated, and supported. This experience solidified her desire to create a similar safe space for others. • The Importance of Rapport and Trust: Kelli highlights the significance of building a strong therapeutic relationship based on rapport, empathy, and trust. She emphasizes that clients should have the freedom to choose a therapist who aligns with their needs and values. • Accessing Inner Wisdom and Self-Trust: Kelli introduces transformative Insight Imagery (tii) as a powerful therapeutic approach that empowers clients to trust themselves and access their own inner resources. By emphasizing self-trust and wisdom, tii promotes healing and personal growth. • Resourcing and Readiness in Trauma Recovery: Kelli sheds light on trauma and the importance of creating a sense of safety and empowerment before delving into deeper healing work. She underscores the significance of readiness and the order of interventions based on each client's unique journey. Join us as we dive into the world of transformative therapy with Kelli Underwood, and discover the transformative power of trust, compassion, and self-discovery on the path to healing and wellness. This episode serves as a beacon of hope and guidance for those seeking support in their mental health and addiction recovery journeys. Kelli's Links: ⁠https://www.kelliunderwood.com/⁠(https://www.kelliunderwood.com/) ⁠https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kelli-underwood-durham-nc/177948⁠(https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kelli-underwood-durham-nc/177948) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-underwood-05763734/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-underwood-05763734/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, hosts Dr. Harold Hong and Justin Mclendon welcome grief counselor and interfaith minister AnnE O'Neil to discuss the intersection between grief and substance use, including the five gates of grief, and the role of spirituality in the recovery process. < Back to Episodes AnnE O'Neil Grief Uncovered 47.34 min | AnnE O'Neil | Finding New Waters Dive into the world of grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders with AnnE O'Neil, a grief counselor, interfaith minister, and spiritual counselor. In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, hosts Dr. Harold Hong and Justin Mclendon welcome AnnE to discuss her expertise in the intersection between grief and substance use. Discover how AnnE's personal experience with grief led her to explore its connection with substance use, and uncover the five gates to grief identified by Francis Weller. Join the conversation on the importance of addressing grief, understanding its different aspects, and the role of spirituality in the recovery process. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "Grief is a taboo topic in our society. We don't know how to handle it, and so we don't talk about it. But the reality is that it's a universal human experience." AnnE O'Neil Podcast Transcript AnnE O'Neil Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality and just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of opening AnnE O'Neil: that conversation up, what do you think about that? Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two in the recovery. AnnE O'Neil: I, I think what I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well, is it is very important to give. To what spirituality is to each and every person. Um, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you, it may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it. AnnE O'Neil: Could be[00:01:00] Dr. Harold Hong: all right. All right. Uh, well, thank you for joining us on this new episode of Finding New Waters, and today we have Annie O'Neill. Annie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for AnnE O'Neil: having me here. Dr. Harold Hong: Sure. Uh, and we also have Justin McClennan, executive Director here at New Waters. And, uh, today we're going to be talking about Annie's Air of expertise in grief and its relationship to substance use disorders. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, thanks so much for being with us here today. Just wanna open up like with this idea of what is the connection between grief and how did you get interested in this topic of grief? AnnE O'Neil: So personally, I got forced into this topic of grief. Um, I came from a family that, uh, squelched grief like a lot of families do. AnnE O'Neil: And when I was 25 and my mother [00:02:00] died and there was no service, um, she had spent seven and a half weeks in intensive care. Um, and then she passed and we were expected to go on. And so nothing had happened and there was no opportunity to process and no. And even prior to that, there had been a few other instances where, you know, like, no to grief, not, not okay. AnnE O'Neil: Um, but that was really the capstone. And at that time, I, myself was already drinking as a lot of my family did. Um, and that definitely escalated it to a new level. So I personally saw the link between. Grief and substance use, but I didn't think about it much until many, many, many years, even decades later, when I was working at a, as at a, um, hospital as a chaplain and I had a grief counseling background. AnnE O'Neil: And, uh, one of the substance use counselors found that out and said, boy, are we gonna put you to use? And I started working with a lot of the people individually there. And what I was really struck by was, how many of. Had said that [00:03:00] nobody had ever talked to them about, and these were people a lot who, whom had been in and out of a lot of treatment centers. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And there just wasn't the room for talking about the loss. And, you know, the topics that often go with it too, like for need for forgiveness for themselves, need for forgiveness for others. Uh, spiritual connection with people on the other side. A lot of people find that they can find a higher. By first linking to ancestors that they knew. AnnE O'Neil: So, um, it, it really opened my eyes to what feels to me still, I think it's getting better, but still feels to me like a, a kind of missing element in most places around recovery. And, and Dr. Harold Hong: that's true. You shared the Annie. Um, it's, it's weird that grief is so common, but also. So un like, so foreign and unknown to us. Dr. Harold Hong: And I think a lot of our, our viewers and our [00:04:00] listeners might not even know how to think about the word grief. Mm-hmm. So just to, just to help people get caught up. When we're talking about grief or when you talk about grief, how do you help patients understand what grief is? AnnE O'Neil: There are two different levels to that. AnnE O'Neil: You know, the standard response is, it's the normal reaction to significant loss. And, um, I also often take, take people to Francis Weller is a youngian, uh, therapist that I, I've done some studying with. Mm-hmm. And he has a book called Wild Edge of Sorrow, which is an absolutely beautiful book. And he identifies there as being five gates to grief. AnnE O'Neil: The first gate is everything we love, we will lose. So that's what our society traditionally thinks of as grief. Mm-hmm. It's loss of loved ones, loss of jobs, loss of health, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that's the first thing. The second thing that he, uh, he calls gate two is grief for the parts of us that have [00:05:00] not known love. AnnE O'Neil: And that includes a lot of shame and a lot of people in recovery can really relate to that. So it's grief for the parts of us that have not known love from others or from ourselves. And then the third gate to grief is grief for the world. Living The world that we live in today with what, you know, society is like. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And what's happening to Mother Nature and everything. A lot of us carry that day in and day out. And it's kind of background noise, but it's not, you know, not to be dismissed by any stretch. The fourth gate, he calls, um, grief for the part, for the things that we needed and did not receive. And he especially talks about that being at the soul level. AnnE O'Neil: So the acknowledgement of who we are as a person, you know, not being seen, not being heard, not being valued for the gifts and what we're bringing. Mm-hmm. And then the fifth is ancestral. So it's what are we carrying in from our family lineage. Mm-hmm. So I, I often introduce people to all five of [00:06:00] those gates because I find it opens up the mind as to what grief is. AnnE O'Neil: And sometimes even though it feels big at that point in time, it can help it to feel a little more approachable too. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's interesting. You know, to back up a minute, you were talking about how, um, It seems like people just don't give enough attention to, to grief. Right. Or address it enough. And I wonder just what, what your opinion about that is, or what's your thoughts around why is it that there's not enough attention AnnE O'Neil: given? AnnE O'Neil: I think it's because it is such a big emotion mm-hmm. That most people don't know how to sit with it. Most, most people. It's scary. Mm-hmm. Um, there, I've talked to many, many people that are like, if I go into this, I'm not sure that I can. Mm. And you know, in that instance I talk about the fact of the strength of the psyche and the soul in that, you know, they will protect you. AnnE O'Neil: They will take you only as far as you can go. [00:07:00] And, um, that's an important thing to, to give people comfort with. But a lot of people feel like it can get so overwhelming. Mm-hmm. And to. You know, in the background, it's our society telling us things like, you gotta keep busy, keeping busy. I'll take care of it, and all that other kind of thing. AnnE O'Neil: So it's a societal pressure as well. Right. Um, but I think it's really important, um, to just be aware that that exists and that is gonna be the background noise. But the truth of healing from grief is it takes a deep dive. Mm-hmm. It really takes a deep dive. There's a quote not related to grief directly, um, but in general from Maya Angelo that I love, that I often use around this. AnnE O'Neil: And it's, she says, I will be affected by things that happen to me, but I refuse to be reduced by them. Mm. And I use that and as an invitation to people. I say, you know, like short term, you are gonna be reduced by grief, but we wanna work together to make sure that long term you don't [00:08:00] have to be reduced by grief. AnnE O'Neil: And that includes things like you don't have to turn to substances. And a whole lot of people turn to substances. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, to piggyback off that point, Annie, Those five gates. Yeah. Uh, I think everyone I know has a lot of those gates in their lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would also say none of them would say that these are active problems for them. AnnE O'Neil: Well, you know, there's a lot of times where people are thinking that I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Right, right. But if you really wanna have a rich full life, you kind of need to sit with, I wonder how that might impact me. Yeah. You know, I, it may not, I may be able to get through my day just fine if knowing that there is a part of my heart that is not being fed. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. But, [00:09:00] How much richer could my life be? And quite frankly, again, when come, when dealing with substance use and addiction issues, um Right. You never know when they're gonna creep up. Right. When you're pushing that kind of stuff off to the side, uh, not having healed from them mm-hmm. Right. May catch up to you at any point in time. AnnE O'Neil: Well, that's Dr. Harold Hong: what I'm, I'm curious is that what do you, do you see that happen in reality where people. Just loaded with grief, but they're unaware. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And absolutely. So Dr. Harold Hong: can you tell us about like a, a story or a time where you, you've helped someone find it, see it, and take stock of what it's done? AnnE O'Neil: I think, um, AnnE O'Neil: The client I worked with recently is a good example. Um, someone dealing with their own health issues [00:10:00] and very much in the, oh, but I found out that it's not gonna be all that bad, so I'm just going to move forward. And one of the things as a social worker is, um, I'm trying to think of the, of the word sell. AnnE O'Neil: People's right to decide where they are. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't push autonomy and Yeah. Uhhuh self autonomy. Thank you. Yeah. And I, um, and I, I don't, I don't push and she opted otherwise, but I did. Introduce her to the fact that, um, there does seem to be a little part of her that does realize that it would be helpful to look at the fear that she's experiencing around death. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And, um, and to, to look at if there's a way to kind of make friends with it. So yeah, to your point about the, everybody being loaded with it though too. Uh, another thing that Francis [00:11:00] Weller often talks about is the fact that. We usually think as soci society, whether we're in grief or not. And he talks about the fact that the reality that we're living in is everyone in our society is in grief every day. AnnE O'Neil: It's a matter of how close are you dancing with it. Wow. And I think that really helps. One of my friends talked about that, who's also a grief counselor, talked about the fact that after her sister died, she said, you know, those days when people wore black Armand, They made sense. You know, we knew to be a little bit more careful with them that there might be a little bit more emotion involved, that they might be a little more volatile or they might need a little bit more. AnnE O'Neil: And when we were walking down the streets, that was known. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, now we go by and we don't know what grief everybody's carrying. Mm-hmm. Right. And yet they're being impacted by it. And our relationships with them are being impacted by it. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: We talk a a lot about, uh, recovery [00:12:00] as a journey. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And you're talking about how when, when you had a huge loss, your drinking increased. Mm-hmm. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about how you see grief and addiction going together and, and what do they do to each other? AnnE O'Neil: Well, and so I, I. Both experiences. I have the experience of of having lost someone close to me and having increased my drinking. AnnE O'Neil: And then, um, my husband also died when I had about five years sober. So that was my, okay, I'm gonna need to learn how to do this differently if I'm gonna stay sober. So I really dove into what were the feelings that were coming up and all this other kind of stuff today. Um, and our out of that, The way that I work with people in a very general sense, I started this model called here, which I stand, what stands for Heal, explore, refine, [00:13:00] emerge, and when I first started it, I expected it to be much more, um, Much more linear and much more, uh, condensed. AnnE O'Neil: And now I use it in a very general sense. But basically what has to happen first after a loss is we need to dive into the healing. There's physical, emotional, spiritual, relational. Everything is impacted by it, and we need to really look at what, what needs to be healed from that. But after that happens for a while, people start to get into a state of exploration knowing that they're not gonna be stay the same from who they were. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So how do I want this to impact me? How do I want it to affect who I am today? And, and after the exploration comes, the period of refinement about what do you wanna keep and what do you not wanna keep, and then kind of emerge into the, the beingness of a new person. Um, you know, one thing I talk about a lot with the notion of [00:14:00] both, um, grief and and recovery. AnnE O'Neil: They are by far, in a way, the hardest things that people will have to go through in their lifetime, but they are also the biggest opportunities people have for true transformation. Mm. And I think that's an important hope to hold out for people. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: You know, I'm thinking, um, you were talking about the, the five gates. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. I can't remember the words that you used, but the fourth one, uh, essentially things that we didn't receive mm-hmm. That we, that we needed and we didn't get, essentially. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think Dr. Hong could speak to this too. So a, a lot of the work that we do, I think work that we've all probably done right. Justin Mclendon: But we do an assessment process here where we're able. Really do a deep dive with people on the psychological, psychiatric, and physical kind of front. Uh, and I think Dr. Hong would probably agree with me more times than not. It's really interesting to work with people. Um, And, and bring to their awareness sometimes that they're [00:15:00] not even aware of all of these things that they needed in their past, uh, or currently mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: Uh, that they just never really got. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Um, and they often dismiss it with, oh, that's silly. That's stupid. I don't really need that. Yeah. Yeah. Or that, that's Justin Mclendon: not trauma. And interesting. I'm, I feel like I'm learning something or having my perspective shift because I've always thought of that as like trauma. Justin Mclendon: I, it's really refreshing to also kind of see that as mm-hmm. As grief. Mm-hmm. Which is, is really nice, uh, to just have that different perspective. But, um, but yeah, I think that's, that's huge and I think most people probably struggle with that in some way or another. Right. Things that AnnE O'Neil: maybe they needed interested in. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And that's a lot of work that I do with people mm-hmm. Is around their needs and identifying them, and particularly working with people in the healing process, uh, after a loss. Mm-hmm. I invite them to think about all of the roles I'm talking about, a loss of a loved one. Mm-hmm. All of the roles that a person played in their life [00:16:00] and. AnnE O'Neil: What needs were filled from that. Mm-hmm. And I help them to see that those needs still exist and they will of course, never be filled in the exact same way. And that is something to be grieved and paid attention to and everything else. Yeah. But it's also important to look at how are those needs gonna be met otherwise, you know, when, when a partner dies, they're also, you know, Travel buddy, your, your financial companion. AnnE O'Neil: Sure. Mm-hmm. And, and all of those needs are very real. And unfortunately it's not stuff that's looked at often. Mm-hmm. And it's really important cuz it impacts somebody's life to the very core level. Absolutely. So, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But with how painful and complicated it is, denial is totally natural. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of our clients, family members. I would say that they know that their loved one is in total denial [00:17:00] of this huge loss that they've had. Mm-hmm. And, and they're using alcohol to just cover the pain up. Just numb. Numb, the emotional pain of that huge loss. And they've, they've asked them to go for help. Dr. Harold Hong: They've asked them to process it, get into it, and they, they can't or they won't. Mm-hmm. Um, have you ever been in a situation. Someone, someone came into your office and you helped them, helped them have the courage to, to take that step into that tough work. AnnE O'Neil: One of the things that I used with the groups at the hospital a lot that that opened people's eyes, I think is I talked about the similarities between. AnnE O'Neil: Grief and early recovery that in both instances, you know, the rug has been pulled out from them. They don't know who they are. They don't know what's next. They don't know how they're gonna get there. They don't know if they even care if they get there or not. Yeah, so that's a huge thing. Physical symptoms are all over the place. AnnE O'Neil: [00:18:00] Emotional emotions are up and down and sideways, and relationships are up in the air and all this other kind of stuff. When I delivered that news first to the groups, they were like, wait a minute. Why are you dumping all this? And then I said, but the good news is healing from grief. And getting into recovery have a lot of similarities too. AnnE O'Neil: They have the similarities of it's one day at a time cuz that's all you can take. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have the similarities that spirituality can really be helpful and when I say spirituality, I refer to some connection to something beyond that helps you to make some sense. It might be nature, it might be music, it might be a more traditional religion, whatever it is, but it's what helps you make some sense of the universe. AnnE O'Neil: It's helpful to have just a couple of people that you can talk to, that you can, that really get what you're going through. Uh, it's helpful to tell your story. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of similarities in both instances too. So I remind them that [00:19:00] they're not in getting into recovery and or dealing with their healing from grief, they're not only tackling one, they're tackling both at the same time. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Makes it a little more palatable at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Did that answer your question? Dr. Harold Hong: I'm not sure if it did. I I think it's great. You're, you're talking about getting people in, in, in sync with the idea of grief, uh, because they've heard a lot about recovery. Mm-hmm. And you can say, okay, it's, it's actually not that far off from Right. Dr. Harold Hong: This, this track that you've already started to build up for. Um, but we have people who are in total denial. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I, I, it's, it's shocking. Like Justin and I, we, we've worked with so many clients here. Yeah. And, uh, we know that family of origin trauma was, was a huge contributing factor to the development of their process or their substance use. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. And years. Yep. When you asked them what was it like, they would say perfect. Yeah. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Yeah. [00:20:00] Perfect family. Not uncommon at all. Yeah, yeah. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Uh, and I think that so many of our, the, our clients' loved ones are just tearing their hair up. Yeah. Right. Like, how can you not see how, how dysfunctional this is? Dr. Harold Hong: How can you not see how much pain you're carrying? And, uh, what are some, some ways. We can break through like this, this shield of denial. Yeah. That is so powerful with a lot of our clients. Yeah. AnnE O'Neil: I, um, in that kind of instance, I, I turned to motivational interviewing and the, the, the note, the pointing out the dissonance, Uhhuh, the very gentle, compassionate, loving, pointing out the dissonance. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And you know, the other thing too that I think is important is the whole notion of. Holding them in their wholeness. That came from the spiritual counseling training that I had. Mm-hmm. And I'm so grateful for it because I, it means that I'm a [00:21:00] therapist that doesn't work from the pathological standpoint. AnnE O'Neil: It means that I'm holding them in their wholeness even when they can't see it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'm holding them in their ability to get through the grief and their ability to see it eventually, their ability to, um, you know, stand up for their life. When they can't possibly imagine that they even need to at this point in time. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Dr. Harold Hong: That makes a lot of sense actually. Uh, just thinking about it, uh, we, we had Sheila Mainland, uh, visit with us and she's an experiential therapist in Charlotte. Uh, does a lot of training and work with the Onset Workshops team. And, uh, she would say that safety is absolutely the beginning. Right? Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. And, uh, when you're talking about grief and pain and. Dangerous. That feels in so many ways. If you're not safe, absolutely. If you're not in a safe therapeutic relationship, you're, you're going to hide it. Right? Yeah. And um, and it reminds me of this other thing that I just ran across, which is when we see [00:22:00] something that doesn't make sense. Dr. Harold Hong: We can react to it with anger. Right. Or curiosity. Right. Right. And I love your approach of motivational interviewing cuz it's it's curiosity. Mm-hmm. Right. Tell me how that helps you. Yep. Uh, tell me what you think about, tell me what you worry about. And, and it's, it's just a much safer place Yeah. For people to get to know themselves better. AnnE O'Neil: I do a fair amount of, um, ifs parts work too, and curiosity is so key to that. It's really interesting when somebody meets a part that they're like, I'm not sure I like this part. What am I gonna do with it? So, Dr. Harold Hong: so for, for our nons. Therapy. Got it. People. What is if Fs, AnnE O'Neil: and tell us what, it's the Internal Family Systems. AnnE O'Neil: It was founded about 40 years ago by Richard Schwartz, and it is the notion that all of us have many, many parts within us. And a simple, simple thing that I often use with clients is I have a part that wants to go to a party and I have a part that doesn't wanna go to a party. Mm-hmm. I have a part [00:23:00] that you. AnnE O'Neil: Has wonderful memories from childhood and I have a part that remembers that. You know, there was a lot of neglect there too. Mm-hmm. And as we start to get to know these parts, the goal is not to banish any of them. You know, the parts of us that we don't like as well, the judgmental and all this other kind of stuff. AnnE O'Neil: They all feel like they. Something to offer us. They're all rooting for us and, and holding us in the highest. Yeah. And what we need to do is make the space to, to come from that, to understand them, to accept them, and to give them their space, and then we can begin to negotiate with them a little bit as opposed to banish them completely. AnnE O'Neil: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks for that. Justin Mclendon: I like. Negotiation. I think there's a lot of that that has to go on, right? Yes. AnnE O'Neil: Well, recovery is nothing but a lot of negotiation. Yeah. Negotiation with ourselves, [00:24:00] negotiation with others, and Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Families. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yep. A Dr. Harold Hong: hundred percent. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, if, if, if someone negotiates and says, well, why do I have to stop drinking? If I wanna do this grief work, can, can I, can I keep drinking and, and keep working with you, Annie, on grief work? What, what would you say to a client? I would, AnnE O'Neil: um, it would, it would depend upon the client, quite frankly. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: There are some clients that I work with with harm reduction first, and I suggest that look at how they may be harming themselves or putting themselves or loved ones in danger. And if they wanna start from a harm reduction standpoint and they feel capable of doing that, I may very well start some grief work with them if, just to get a sense as to whether or not mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Where they really are. Um, there are others that I would probably just outright say, [00:25:00] No. Mm-hmm. But it really is up to the individual. Yeah. What's going on with the individual client. But like I have become a huge fan of harm reduction, and I think that's a, that's an open opening of the door to a lot of people. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, Dr. Harold Hong: and by that you mean, uh, we're, we're gonna take the good that we can get safely and so, um, If total sobriety right now is not an option and we can still see if we do some grief work, we'll, we'll go for that. Yes. But rule of thumb, like you're, it sounds like most of the time you're saying sobriety first. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, well mostly because I don't think, I don't think it's possible to really do. Deep grief work. Mm-hmm. When you're in mind altered states Right. A good chunk of your life, Justin Mclendon: just not being able to connect, truly AnnE O'Neil: emotional. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. The, the defenses are still a little too strong at that point [00:26:00] in time. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Can you fully recover from substance use without doing the grief AnnE O'Neil: work? Mm, that's a great question. That is a good question. I. AnnE O'Neil: I suppose it depends upon the losses that you've experienced in your life. Say you're in your early twenties and you've had a relatively mild substance use career so far, you may be able to. But if you've been using pretty heavy and hard for, for a decade or so, you have probably had enough grief instances from that alone. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. The number of people at the rehab that I worked with that had, you know, been shooting up with somebody who died. Right. So they have grief and trauma at the exact same time. Right. And guilt and all sorts of other things. Um, then you're probably not gonna be able to recover until you do some, do some work around that. AnnE O'Neil: Definitely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:27:00] I talk about the fact that with all trauma comes grief and with a lot of grief comes trauma. You know, if your 95 year old grandmother died and she had lived a full life and you had a good relationship, there's not gonna be trauma around that. But if you were shooting up with somebody and they died next to you mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: You're gonna have some trauma to work too. Absolutely. Work through too, so, absolutely. Yeah. Right. Justin Mclendon: Yep. No, that is 100% for sure. And, and you know, traumatic, I mean, just using that word, I think substance use in itself, I mean, if anybody has struggled with the depths of addiction, like in itself is traumatic. AnnE O'Neil: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. The things we put ourselves through. Yeah. 100%. Justin Mclendon: 100%. So, uh, I'm, I'm AnnE O'Neil: biased. I'd like to squeeze this into the conversation. Justin Mclendon: Okay. I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality. Mm-hmm. And just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: Opening that conversation up. What do you [00:28:00] think about that? AnnE O'Neil: Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two mm-hmm. In the recovery. Mm-hmm. I, I think. What I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well. Mm-hmm. Is, it is very important to give space as to what spirituality is to each and every person. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Uh, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you. Mm-hmm. It may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it could be. Yeah. Given that, as I said, spirituality to me is something that has purpose and meaning. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, then yes, that's, that is. When someone has lost someone so close to them, that is often what's missing. Yeah. Um, and you know, David Kessler, who used to work with Elizabeth Kubler Ross has written a book on the, [00:29:00] the sixth stage of, of mm-hmm. Grief, which is finding meaning. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think there's a lot of validity to that, that we, um, we heal by. AnnE O'Neil: Saying, wait a minute, I do have reason to go on. Wait, wait a minute. It does make sense in my own book. Um, it, it, which is called, uh, if You Want The Rainbow, welcome the Rain, A Memoir of Grief and Recovery. I talk about the fact that when I was sitting in a songa, it, it taught me to go back to my breath at a point in time when I didn't care if I was breathing or not. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And I, I share that with a lot of people because. People are really quick to say, I'm not suicidal, but I don't care if I'm here or not. And I'm like mm-hmm. Completely, completely, completely understandable. Part of grief. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. And so whatever it is that helps us to find that meaning and that purpose mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Um, to, to wanna still be here. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Well, I mean, to your point, Justin, I, I, I think that I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who use [00:30:00] spirituality to. Like skip grief. Right, right. To avoid it. Right. So they'll say everything happens for a reason. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they're in a better place. They, they, they're in heaven now, and we're just moving on. AnnE O'Neil: I should be happy. Right. Yeah. Have you heard of the term spiritual bypass? Yeah, that's exactly what that is. And I, so it was coined by John Wellwood, and it is to use a spiritual precept to go around having emotion. Mm-hmm. And it is probably grief that that happens the most around, you're absolutely right. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And it never, it never works. Right. You know, might, it might work for a very short period of time, but it's gonna catch up to you sooner later. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I mean, I, my heart like feels very, uh, Frustrated and, and heavy. Mm-hmm. When, when I hear those, those conversations happen because, um, well, I, spirituality, faith, uh, is a huge part of my life [00:31:00] mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: As well. Um, I, I am a firm believer that there, there is a higher power and the meaning and the intent of that higher power is woven through everything that we experience. Uh, but I also believe that our higher power. Uh, wants us to understand things more fully and, and live more holistically than this. Um, and, and so like, how do, how do you help people think through, like how, how all the complexities of a spiritually sacred grief process? AnnE O'Neil: Well, I. That's an excellent question. And the note, I love the notion of the spiritually sacred. Mm-hmm. And it is to talk about the sacredness of their life, how they lived, what their legacy is, how they impacted their li, their own life, the person who's left behind and from their [00:32:00] in the honoring. They can usually start to get in touch with the heart a little bit more, and it, it tends to be a little bit less dismissive. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. The whole notion. You noticed, uh, we, we spoke earlier about the, the, what I call the invitations to soulful living. Mm-hmm. Yes. And one of them, the last one is the invitation to embrace one's humanity and one's mortality. And the reason that that became the eighth one, which I added in the pandemic, is I noticed how many people were so terrified of. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Positively terrified. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I am with the spiritual teachers who basically say, if you have not embraced that, you're gonna leave this world someday. You're not gonna be able to fully live on this world either. Uh, the Buddhist use a poem of meditation, [00:33:00] which basically is practicing dying to become familiar with it. AnnE O'Neil: There's a lot to be said for that. And in teaching somebody how to embrace their own, it usually helps them open the door to grief a little bit more. Mm-hmm. As well. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Can you say more about soulful living? AnnE O'Neil: I'll try. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, it just strikes me as being the opposite of, of how, of how we ordinarily. Live in ways that, um, deplete us or, or burn us. AnnE O'Neil: It, it is absolutely the opposite of that. It's a very spacious living. It's a very pre being, present living. Um, that is actually the, the crux of the, the studying that I'm doing with Francis Weller is the whole notion of soul. And the way I describe soulful living is it is about, Being present. Being available. AnnE O'Neil: And it's about, [00:34:00] and I, I often say you can look at somebody and know when they're having a soulful life, but it's not about how it looks to people whenever we get caught in how it looks or Right, what the ego wants and all this other kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. We are completely going opposite to soul. And, um, one of my own, uh, spiritual teachers at one point in time, Kim Hughes in describe spiritual counseling as helping people to learn to live more from their soul and less from their ego. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And that is how I describe my work a lot too, is just really helping people to inter understand at their core who they are and what they. And how they wanna live their life and giving themselves permission to do so. It, it takes me back to a quote from Rachel, Naomi Reman that I like a lot To that says healing may not be so much about getting better as it is about letting go of everything that's not you. AnnE O'Neil: All of the beliefs and all of the [00:35:00] expectations and becoming who you really are. And I think that's, Definitely in the process of recovery. And it's also true in the process of really deeply healing from grief. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: I love that. Love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And I mean, I have all these thoughts running through my head. Justin Mclendon: Right. But I think, you know, overarchingly like our society, I think, you know, we do a lot of the opposite of that. Right? Absolutely. That's about the work. The career advancements and just like you name it, right. What does AnnE O'Neil: it look like? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah. I was raised in a family influence. Just make it look good. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. Just make it look, just make it look good, right? Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Keeping up with the Joneses, you know, whatever the exterior is, as long as everybody thinks that. It's good then we should be good. Right? But yeah, and it's not that, right? It's not soulful living. AnnE O'Neil: So my first career, um, was actually in advertising. I was in the glamorous world of the ad biz. AnnE O'Neil: Okay. And I've had many people laugh that I've kind of taken one. One extreme to the other. [00:36:00] I'm looking at social work as the middle path. But, um, yeah. You know, I had by 30 years old, I was a VP at one of the Hot New York agencies. Nice. And my, I was so empty though, right. I wasn't yet sober and I was just, I worked so hard. AnnE O'Neil: To make the outside look okay. Cuz the inside was just mush. Mm-hmm. Just broken and mush. Um, and that's what soulful living gets you is, is to start to let go of the fact that you have to work so hard to have the outside look good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And to start to pay attention to what does the inside need. AnnE O'Neil: You know, sit things like sitting with those five gates and really asking your question of like, how does this impact me today? Right. It takes, um, it takes a certain level of commitment to soul to even be able to begin there. Right. So, yeah, absolutely. Wow, Dr. Harold Hong: that's awesome. But that comparison is a big [00:37:00] part of why people stay in their addiction as long as they do. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? The, like, the shame. The embarrassment of admitting that you have an alcohol use disorder or you have, uh, like a pill disorder. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's too shameful. It, it compares so poorly mm-hmm. To everyone else, so I just have to keep it a secret. Yeah. Uh, same with grief. Right. Um, no one, no one wants to be around me when I'm crying or sad, so I need to hide it and just, just move on. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Right. And. It doesn't AnnE O'Neil: work. It doesn't. No, it definitely doesn't work. And you know, first of all, the truth is we're not hiding things as much as we think we are. Right. You know, people usually have a better sense of what's going on and the reality. Another one of the invitations, ah, I just realized the invitation that I forgot to mention to you guys is the invitation to connect the invitation of really connect, [00:38:00] starting with your. AnnE O'Neil: And connecting with others, connecting with spirit, connecting with nature, connecting with, um, with ancestors. It's only when we can start to tap into soul that we can truly, honestly connect when we're living from the make it look good, we're always looking over our shoulder as to, you know, how am I looking? AnnE O'Neil: How, how am I doing compared to this other one, right? So, yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Isn't that crazy? Because it is like, When we live in this world where we're gonna compare ourselves to other people, we're pretty much guaranteed to not get what we actually need or want. Right. But when we switch tracks and say, I don't care anymore, I'm gonna live for my soul. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, you're actually gonna get what you want. And, and I mean, not to go back into this other paradigm, but ironically, the people that you were previously comparing yourself to, their propaganda notice, Hey, like, Annie's, Annie's [00:39:00] so much better these days. Yeah. Like she smiles like she has energy. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, I want that for AnnE O'Neil: myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I, weird story, but I'll tell it. Anyhow. I worked at, um, my last job in advertising. Actually, that's not true. My last job in advertising before I took a year off and got sober and then came back into advertising, was at a very small agency and it was headed by a. AnnE O'Neil: Team of two, and one of them was an English guy with his booming accent. Oh. And I called to make an amend. I was a horrendous employee there. Mm-hmm. I had badmouthed them to clients. I was drunk at lunch a lot. I came in late because I was hungover from the night before and blah, blah, blah. And yet I always, I had the attitude of, well, they don't know what they have with me. AnnE O'Neil: You know? So I called him to make an amend and I, and I said, you know, I wanted to acknowledge that I. Live up to how I could have, what I should have done here and everything. [00:40:00] And again, the in booming English accent, he says, well, we all loved you on your good days. And my response was, well, I thank you for that and I'm happy to say I'm having a lot more good days. AnnE O'Neil: He says, well that's lovely. AnnE O'Neil: That's awesome. So yeah, people notice when you start living from your soul. And I was also really glad to see that the. You said, when you live for your soul, you know, I think our society can also get confused and think living for ourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And living for ourself can be a very selfish way of doing things. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Soulful living has got a lot of room, a room for being available and being of service to oth others as well. Mm-hmm. One of the things that. That Francis Willer talks about is the fact that we live in a largely adolescent society because we haven't been formed to grow, to really [00:41:00] push to grow up. AnnE O'Neil: And what adulthood really is, is about being willing to start to take responsibility for being a member of the community and serving the community as well. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really important thing to consider and, you know, something that we don't have access to when we're still using, and even when we haven't really healed our grief. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah. When people say, uh, heal your grief. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: How do you, I'm glad you asked that question. You haven't even asked it fully, but because I've had many people say, I will, I, I will never heal from grief. Yeah. And I think that often comes from a misguided sense of loyalty that if healing the grief could mean shutting the door on it, it could mean never thinking about it. AnnE O'Neil: It could be, and that's not at all what healing from grief is the best description that [00:42:00] I've ever. It was a book that I read shortly after my husband died. It's, it was called Seven Choices by Elizabeth Harper Neil. Mm-hmm. And she talks about the fact that the last stage that she identifies as integration, and it's where you again, find that purpose and meaning that we talked about earlier, that you are. AnnE O'Neil: Again, able to access joy, um, that you're able to recognize that issues still come up in life, um, but they don't have to define you anymore. And how o, how I often describe it to people is like when you've lost something or someone that had previously defined you, the loss itself will define you for a while. AnnE O'Neil: But what happens that, that healing from grief is, it's starting to make space for other things. Starting to make space for, uh, new people to come into your life, to new interests. Mm-hmm. Um, and that kind of thing. And that, that's what healing from grief is for me. It's about being able to, you know, get [00:43:00] through to that emerge stage and find a new chapter for yourself. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So it's amazing. It doesn't go away. You find a way to incorporate AnnE O'Neil: it, if you will. Right. Yeah. So, um, Monday was my wedding anniversary and I had a tender day. Sure. You know? Sure. And it was 23 years ago, and my husband died 21 years ago. Mm-hmm. And I just made space for it, you know, I, I did what I needed to do. AnnE O'Neil: I was able to show up. It's been a while. Sure. Mm-hmm. But I also, You know, honored him in my heart. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, it doesn't completely go away, but you know, should it really, right. It's a large part of. What defines who we've become? I had a sponsee once ask me, one of the things that guides me is I have a deep, deep trust that things unfold for my highest good, for all of our highest good, [00:44:00] and at. AnnE O'Neil: Human ego self cannot see that most of the time. Yep. But I do have that trust, and sometimes I have to remind myself of that trust. And I was having this conversation with the Sponsee one time, and she said, but how can you feel that way after having lost your husband? After having had such short time with him? AnnE O'Neil: And without even a second thought, the words that came outta my mouth. Because of who I became as a result of that experience of knowing him, of his illness, of his death, and all of it. Um, and I think that's imp an important part of getting to the other side of, of anything that we face in our life, right? AnnE O'Neil: Is the possibility of, you know, who might I become as a result of this? Mm-hmm. To the good, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Justin Mclendon: Well, like you mentioned, I mean, I think especially with addiction, right? I mean, we hear so many people that are struggling with substance use disorder that are thinking or kicking the tires of recovery, so to speak. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. Exactly to your [00:45:00] point. Like, you know, that fear of like, well, what will I be, you know? Yeah. What will I do with my time? Who will I spend my AnnE O'Neil: time with? Mm-hmm. I'll be boring. I'll be boring for, right. What am I gonna Justin Mclendon: do for fun? AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing what our mind can tell us, you know? AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. I, mm-hmm. I remember being terrified. It was a long time ago, about the, I will never have fun again. I have had so much more fun in recovery though, right. Ever had. Yeah. Yeah. But you. We don't know what we don't know until, and that's where it's important to have people that, that can share their experience, strength, and hope with us. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Both around recovery and around the fact that it's possible to heal from grief. Mm mm-hmm. Um, and to love again, and to, you know, be a part of life again and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Any, uh, thank you so much for meeting with us today. Thank you. Like we'd said earlier, grief is something that we're all experiencing. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And it, it [00:46:00] keeps us stuck in, in our pain. Mm-hmm. And, uh, a lot of us are stuck there just because we don't know that there's another side to it. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I, I just feel so blessed and fortunate to hear your story and, and you're telling us that there is another side there, there is a soulful life mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: In our future. And our higher power desires that for all of us, um, and we can access it. Like, but when you talk with wise people like yourself, when we look for healing, um, in a place, uh, for detox and recovery, and we meet other people who have been on this journey. Mm-hmm. So those resources are out there Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: For people. Um, and, and they just, But it, it's not every day. We might not be aware of it, but there's resources out there and there's hope and mm-hmm. A soulful life ahead for all AnnE O'Neil: of us. Yeah. Yeah. And I do just wanna offer, if anybody wants to learn more about my perspective, my website is your soul path.com. Dr. Harold Hong: Excellent. Excellent. So we, we, we'll have to put a link in the, in the description to all the books that [00:47:00] you've shared, uh, all the authors and great minds that you've worked with, and, um, of course, how, how clients can connect to you. Awesome. I'd love with. Thank AnnE O'Neil: you. Thank you, Annie. Thank you. Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McClendon are joined by AnnE O'Neil, a grief counselor, interfaith minister, and spiritual counselor. Together, they explore the powerful connection between grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders and how it impacts the journey of recovery. AnnE shares her personal experience with grief and how it led her to her current work as a grief counselor. She mentions that she came from a family that squelched grief like many other families, and how this impacted her when her mother passed away. She discusses the importance of acknowledging different forms of grief and mentions the five gates to grief identified by Francis Weller. Throughout the conversation, AnnE shares her insights on the five gates to grief and how it can help people understand the different aspects of grief that they may be experiencing. She mentions how Francis Weller's work can be useful for counselors and therapists to approach grief in a more holistic manner. AnnE emphasizes the importance of spirituality in the healing process and how it can take many forms depending on the individual. She talks about how it's important to give space to individuals to process their grief and how grief can often be a missing element in substance use treatment. She mentions her experiences working with individuals in recovery and how many of them have never had the opportunity to talk about their grief. Overall, this episode offers a powerful and insightful conversation on grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders. AnnE's expertise in this area provides a valuable perspective on how we can better support individuals on their healing journey. For those interested in learning more about Francis Weller's work on grief, his book "The Wild Edge of Sorrow" is a great resource to start with. Find out more about AnnE Your Soul Path (https://www.yoursoulpath.com)and connect with her on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/yoursoulpath?fref=tf)and LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-o-neil-2847781/) Keywords: Grief Counseling, Spiritual Counseling, Interfaith Ministry, Substance Abuse, Addiction Recovery, Healing Journey, Emotional Wellness, Personal Growth, Self-Discovery, Compassion, Forgiveness, Ancestral Healing, Positive Psychology, Mental Health Awareness, Stress Management, Coping Strategies, Self-Care, Mindfulness Practice, Emotional Intelligence, Support Systems, Community Building, Podcast Interview, Thought Leadership, Inspirational Talk, Wellness Education, Holistic Approach, Transformational Change, Finding New Waters Podcast, Expert Insights.

In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes From the NFL to Redemption: Jeff Hatch’s Recovery Story 1:13:49 min | Jeff Hatch | Finding New Waters In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Jeff Hatch — a former NFL player turned recovery advocate — for an unflinchingly honest and deeply redemptive conversation. Jeff shares his remarkable journey from playing for the New York Giants to battling addiction, relapsing, and ultimately rebuilding a meaningful life in long-term recovery. With raw insight and humility, Jeff opens up about the weight of secrets, the darkness of relapse, and the spiritual clarity he found through surrender. Subscribe “Recovery isn't about getting back to who I was-it's about becoming who I was meant to be” – Jeff Hatch Show Notes In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Jeff Hatch — a former NFL player turned recovery advocate — for an unflinchingly honest and deeply redemptive conversation. Jeff shares his remarkable journey from playing for the New York Giants to battling addiction, relapsing, and ultimately rebuilding a meaningful life in long-term recovery. With raw insight and humility, Jeff opens up about the weight of secrets, the darkness of relapse, and the spiritual clarity he found through surrender. Jeff’s path has taken him from the NFL to a federal investigation — and now, to a leadership role in recovery at Eagle Creek Ranch. Whether you’re in recovery or just need to hear a story of hope, redemption, and true transformation, this episode is for you. 👇 TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 – Intro & Reconnecting in Seattle 01:00 – Jeff’s football journey: from UPenn to the NFL 06:30 – Injury, addiction, and painkillers in pro sports 11:00 – The illusion of achievement as a cure 18:00 – Getting honest: From overdose to treatment 22:00 – Early recovery and starting over 28:00 – Relapse, fentanyl patches, and heroin 36:00 – Getting involved with federal law enforcement 43:00 – Facing public exposure and redemption 49:00 – Finding love and rebuilding a new life 55:00 – Living spiritually through chaos 01:00:00 – Jeff’s life today: marriage, career, and fatherhood 01:08:00 – Gratitude, authenticity, and using your pain for purpose 01:12:00 – Outro & how to connect with Jeff 🔗 Find Jeff Hatch: Website: https://www.hatchcoaching.com(https://www.hatchcoaching.com/) 🏥 Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery: https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com(https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com/) 📲 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. < Back to Episodes How Addiction, Recovery, and a PHD Built a New Life with Dr. Zach Miller 42:15 min | Dr. Zach Miller | Finding New Waters In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. He opens up about the hard truths of early addiction, how structure and accountability helped him thrive, and the lessons he’s learned as a treatment provider and researcher. We also explore his dissertation, which revealed a surprising link between health insurance type and opioid overdose risk. Subscribe “I hate structure—but I thrive in it. And I think a lot of men can relate to that.” – Dr. Zach Miller Show Notes In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. He opens up about the hard truths of early addiction, how structure and accountability helped him thrive, and the lessons he’s learned as a treatment provider and researcher. We also explore his dissertation, which revealed a surprising link between health insurance type and opioid overdose risk. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Intro – Meet Dr. Zach Miller and his work in recovery • [03:00] Early Addiction & Homelessness – IV opioid use at 14, kicked out in the snow • [07:00] Wilderness Therapy & Mentorship – Finding purpose through pain • [12:00] The Power of Structure – “I hate it, but I thrive in it” • [17:00] Plus One Minus One – A brilliant recovery framework born from real experience • [22:00] Getting a PhD in 11 Months – The journey back to academia • [27:00] Dissertation Results – How insurance type predicts overdose frequency • [34:00] Solutions Healthcare – His growing network of treatment centers in Florida • [38:00] Final Words – On humility, leadership, and staying teachable Key Topics Covered: 1. From Addiction to Academia – How Zach rebuilt from nothing and never stopped 2. The Importance of Structure – Why addicts often resist what they most need 3. The “Plus One Minus One” Model – Self-awareness in action 4. Overdose Data and Insurance – His PhD research explained 5. Humility and Leadership in Recovery – Why ego is the biggest relapse risk Guest Bio: Dr. Zach Miller PhD, Co-Founder of Solutions Healthcare Dr. Zach Miller is a recovery advocate, entrepreneur, researcher, and co-founder of Solutions Healthcare, a growing network of treatment centers in Florida. After surviving childhood addiction and homelessness, he rebuilt his life through mentorship, structure, and relentless self-work. Today, he holds a PhD and leads with a trauma-informed, accountability-based philosophy that’s saving lives. His dissertation research uncovered how insurance types correlate with non-fatal opioid overdose rates—an insight that’s reshaping how we view access to care. 📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterthanideserve22(https://www.instagram.com/betterthanideserve22) 🌐 Website: https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com(https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com/) Resources Mentioned: • Solutions Healthcare: https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com(https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com/) • Plus One Minus One Framework • Find a 12-Step Meeting: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Shauna Vick shares her inspiring journey from alcohol use disorder to founding "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention." A tale of overcoming societal pressures and finding true joy in sobriety and service. Don't miss this uplifting story of resilience and renewal. < Back to Episodes Rising from the Depths: Shauna Vick's Journey to Joy and Sobriety 52:47 min | Shauna Vick | Finding New Waters In this captivating episode of "Finding New Waters," Shauna Vick shares her profound journey from the brink of despair to a life filled with purpose and joy. Delve into Shauna's battle with alcohol use disorder, her confrontation with societal pressures, and how she emerged to found "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention." Discover the transformative power of resilience, support, and the pursuit of a life beyond addiction. Join us for an inspiring tale of recovery and the rediscovery of life's simple joys. Subscribe "How do you create a life that you no longer need a vacation from? How do you create a life that you no longer need to get relief from? What needs to change?" -Shauna Vick Show Notes In this enlightening episode of "Finding New Waters," we delve into the inspiring journey of Shauna Vick, who shares her powerful story of overcoming alcohol use disorder, societal pressures, and finding a renewed sense of purpose through helping others. Hosted by Graham Durgie, CEO of New Waters Recovery, and co-hosted by B. Reeves, Director of Business Development, and Justin McClendon, Executive Director, this conversation sheds light on the challenges and triumphs of achieving long-term recovery. Shauna Vick, a woman in long-term recovery, bravely opens up about her battle with alcohol use disorder, workaholism, and the so-called "Wonder Woman Syndrome." After decades of sobriety, Shauna faced a devastating relapse that led her to re-evaluate her life and career. Moving away from a successful stint as a software sales executive, she founded "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention," dedicating her life to aiding others on their path to recovery. Born and raised in Toronto, Canada, Shauna now enjoys a peaceful life in North Carolina with her family and engages in outdoor activities to connect with nature and maintain her sobriety. Key Points Discussed: 1. **Shauna's Personal Journey:** Shauna shares her intense struggle with alcohol, highlighting the fine line between being sober and relapsing. Her story is a stark reminder of the continuous battle individuals in recovery face, especially when confronted with old behaviors and societal pressures. 2. **The Pressure of Perfection:** The discussion delves into the "Pinterest Perfect Life" and "Wonder Woman Syndrome," where Shauna details how striving for an unattainable societal image contributed to her alcohol use disorder. The conversation brings to light the unrealistic expectations placed on women, particularly mothers, in today's society. 3. **Path to Recovery:** Shauna's recount of her path back to sobriety, including the importance of treatment, support systems, and the 12-step program, offers hope and practical advice to others facing similar challenges. 4. **Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention:** Shauna talks about her decision to leave her corporate career to start her organization, focusing on helping others navigate recovery. She emphasizes the joy and fulfillment found in guiding others towards sobriety and the importance of creating a life that doesn't necessitate escape through substances. 5. **The Role of Outdoor Activities:** A significant part of Shauna's recovery and current lifestyle involves outdoor activities like gardening, hiking, and spending time by the fire pit. These activities offer her a sense of peace and an avenue to practice mindfulness, contributing to her overall well-being and sobriety. **Contact Information:** For those inspired by Shauna's story or seeking guidance on their journey to recovery, she can be reached at Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention for support and resources. ⁠https://www.returntojoyrecovery.com/⁠(https://www.returntojoyrecovery.com/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠A(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)pple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠T(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)iktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) Transcript Shauna Vick: [00:00:00] I know from the time I pick up a drink that I don't want it to stop. I always want one more. I was seeking that relief because I had lived for so many decades in sobriety. So let me, let me clarify. I was sober and working a program and then I was dry. Okay. I wasn't working any sort of program. I was being very self reliant and then I was in what I call prelapse mode and a lot of old behaviors. That aren't healthy behaviors for me were coming up and then I took that drink and I was in a relapse for about two and a half years and I could not understand why I could not get sober again. I was hopeless. I couldn't, I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades. Without alcohol, why could I not get back?[00:01:00] Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Graham Durgie and I'm the founder and CEO here at New Waters Recovery. Thank you for joining us on our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Today, we've got a very special guest, Shauna Vick. Shauna is a woman in long term recovery from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder Woman syndrome, Perfect wife, life and mother syndrome. Having decades of sobriety, Shauna experienced a devastating relapse and fought her way back to sobriety. After this experience, she decided to leave a successful decades long career as a software sales executive to found Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention. So that she could spend the second half of her life helping others navigate their way to recover from addiction and stay sober. Born and raised in Toronto, Canada. [00:02:00] Currently resides in North Carolina with her husband, daughter, and two Labradors. Her favorite pastime is to spend early mornings by the fire pit to meditate and start the day in nature, no matter how cold it is. After years and years of office life, constant cross country travel, her preferred place to be now is outside gardening, hiking, golfing, skiing, kayaking, or fly fishing. Most people know that if you're looking for her, you better check outside first. B. Reeves: Welcome to another episode of Finding New Waters. I am B Reeves. I'm the director of business development here at New Waters, sitting here with my colleague, Justin McClendon, who is our executive director. I'm just going to read the first paragraph of her bio, and then we'll go from there. Shawna, excuse me, Shawna McKenna Vick is a woman in long term recovery from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder Woman syndrome, Pinterest perfect wife, life, and mother syndrome. Welcome Shauna, and I want to start by just asking you, what is Wonder Woman Syndrome? Shauna Vick: Well, that was quite a mouthful. I know [00:03:00] that bio details quite a bit in that, but Wonder Woman Syndrome and Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother syndrome, I feel led me to my alcohol use disorder. I I'd had decades of sobriety B and I found myself on that hamster wheel of unattainable societal pressures from Pinterest I call it the Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother syndrome because you're on Pinterest. I was making, you know, flower arrangements with peeps peeps with, you know, those peeps for Easter that went in one vase and then the other because it all had to appear correctly. But I was dying on the inside trying to keep up. I was a full time Working mom, I traveled for work. I was a software sales executive. I was traveling every week. I wanted to make a magical life for my daughter. So I was also involved in all of her schooling and managing everything for her care. I was what I call a stay at home mom who worked [00:04:00] full time and traveled because I had this pressure that I put on myself that I, in order to be the perfect wife and mother. I had to do all the things and I couldn't ask for help and my life imploded. I had gotten into recovery very early in my in my adulthood and I, I follow the 12 steps and AA, I like to say AA gave me such a great life that it took me away from AA and I started to do everything on my own and started to really feel the societal pressure once I had my baby and I wanted to make, like I said, make life magical. So I became Wonder Woman or I thought I became Wonder Woman. Well, no. I actually thought I was, and I bought the costume. So I have the cape, I have the bodice, I was Wonder Woman for Halloween a few times. But it really felt like that, that I needed a super power just to live. [00:05:00] And when I was working full time, and managing all of those things, I found that I was becoming more and more empty. My cup was very, very empty. And because I had had alcohol use disorder early in my life, I knew that there was something out there that could help me to medicate myself. And I wasn't working a program, I wasn't taking care of myself. My mom was dying at the time and I was so overwhelmed. An example of what I would do is I traveled every week for work and on Sundays I would do all of the meal prep for my family. In individualized containers, would be in the fridge and freezer so that they didn't have to worry about cooking when I was gone. Because my level of mom guilt of not being there was so high, I had to take care of everything. And when I needed the relief, I turned back to alcohol. [00:06:00] I turned back to alcohol to give me that much needed relief. And I see it, I see it today. So many women, we need, we're, we're working full time, we're managing the house or stay at home. Moms who are super busy, believe me, they work just as many hours as working moms, working outside the home. Looking for that drink at the end of the day or some at 3 or some at 2 or 1 p. m. in the afternoon. So that their shoulders can release and that feel up B. Reeves: happens. It's funny because keeping up with the Joneses is As old as time. And so is alcoholism. But now that recovery and sobriety are more socially acceptable for lack of a better term, the pressure with the Pinterest perfect life and social media exacerbates the keeping up with the Joneses. And it's [00:07:00] almost like it keeps up with the accessibility to treatment and recovery. Does that make sense? Where mothers, while it's more and more acceptable and there's less stigma, it, but the pressure is. Is more severe because of social media, it seems like. Yes. Because I mean, I'm, I'm 46. I mean, I'm, my friends, you know, wives and my friends who are female are, you know, they all have kids and a lot of them are stay at home moms and I'm, I know this is a thing, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah. Shauna Vick: I think if I heard you correctly, understand correctly that yes, we have destigmatized treatment and seeking help to a point. To a point, yeah. To a point. Right. But it's very difficult to make that more mainstream when the pinking of alcohol has happened so much by the large, by big alcohol. Okay. We have all these women's drinks or these mommy wine clubs or getting [00:08:00] together with your, with your girlfriends afterwards, bringing the kids over, having a bottle of wine. per person, right? We're seeing a lot of that. And it's so normalized. Drinking this huge amount of wine is normalized because it's, we're, we're telling moms, these are, like I said, the unattainable expectations or societal expectations and that they need to have this wine to get through. It's no different than mother's little helper. If you think about it, it's no different than Mother's Little Helper that we were giving to women in the 50s and 60s. And yet, I was speaking, it's been really on my mind lately because I was speaking with a therapist earlier this week, and she's seeing a lot of women for anxiety and depression. And I just said, well, do you find that they drink a lot? And she said, well, we know, yes, yes, we do. But we have to get to that point to uncover and to [00:09:00] help people realize that drinking a bottle of wine a night is actually Not normal. Right. Right. Right. If we look to what the CDC or the National Institute of Health states what recommended drinks and I'm going to get this wrong because, you know, my brain at my age doesn't hold statistics perfectly, but let's just call it that it's three. Drinks. I think it's three servings. Yeah. Three servings of alcohol a week. Mm hmm. For women. A week. A week. A week. Mm hmm. Three servings. That's one four ounce glass. Let's see. Let's say that Justin and I are wrong and say it's seven servings of alcohol a week. Let's, let's err on the side of more. So, four ounces, because I believe it's a four ounce pour that they're talking about. That's a small wine glass, not a goblet, seven times a week. That is, [00:10:00] might be a bottle and a half over the course of a week. I know it's actually not that high, Justin. I think you're right that it's about three glasses a week. Let's just say that was it. If we were to say to just an average group of ladies who meet a couple times a week to have wine and have the kids over and share dinner, and they go through three bottles for a group of however many, what if we were to ask them, can you stick to, The answer might be, well, why would we want to? Right? We're not in any trouble. We're not getting into trouble. I'm not an alcoholic. No, and that is not what I'm saying. Right. Right. I'm not labeling anybody. Mm hmm. But are we self empowering? Are we normalizing it so much that women are self medicating to just get through not realizing that drinking alcohol with anxiety is like pouring gasoline on [00:11:00] fire? Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. And depression for that matter. And depression, yes. A hundred percent. And, uh You know, it's interesting what's coming up for me as you're saying that is, you know, this idea of like the relief, right? Just like you said, you experienced for yourself. And that's what I'm hearing, right? Is that like, they don't think it's a bad thing or maybe it's a, it's a time for them to socialize and things like that. But I do think there is that element of. You know, they're engaging in that to seek relief from, you know, all the other things that are going on in life, right? The stress, the anxiety, the trying to, you know, the keeping up with the Joneses, or the, as you say, the Pinterest perfect lifestyle. And it's just It's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. It's not sustainable and I think it is true that like a person that is engaging in that level of, you know, just continued motion and trying to keep everything up and so forth, you do have to have relief. There has to be some kind of relief point there. But when someone starts to find that in alcohol or [00:12:00] other drugs, I mean, we also see this with, you know, people starting to abuse like benzodiazepines or things like that. And not to knock like other medications, but even other you know, being prescribed other, you know, depression or anxiety medications because same thing needing that relief from, from all of this, this chaos that they're trying to manage when the reality is. is if we maybe could change the chaos or change how we're living life, then we could find relief in a different way, I think. Right? Shauna Vick: Right. Exactly. And that's, you know, um, I love what you said that the sustainable, it's not sustainable. You know, that was the point that I, I couldn't quite get to, I couldn't sustain it. And, You are on, on a hamster wheel, you're always going and then you're in perpetual motion. You've painted a great picture, Justin, in just of how we are as women and in life it can be men too, you know, who [00:13:00] need to just take the edge off when they get home from work. So I'm going to pour a couple of belts of scotch or bourbon or whatever and have a few beers while I'm cooking things. So this is not limited. to women, but it's this normalization of overusing alcohol. And then the prescription benzos, right? How many people do I know that have been prescribed Xanax to help with their anxiety that is caused by this perpetual motion that they're feeding with? Drinking a lot and not sleeping. And so they need something to help with their anxiety because work pressures are getting to them. So if they take a Xanax during the day and then, you know, it helps to settle them through the day and then they're going home and pouring themselves the first glass of wine, it is just, then you're in perpetual motion too of that cycle. So here you're trying to, you're trying to keep up with this, the unrealistic expectations that [00:14:00] society has put. Or that we put on ourselves, right? That we've put on ourselves and you're trying to manage it, the feelings here. So in, when I'm coaching women, I often will say, you know, it's not, don't think of it as that we're taking alcohol away. This is an additive process, right? What do we need to add back in? What do you need to add back into your life? So you can manage those feelings. So you can find something different. So you can be present to your children. I mean, that I think is the greatest heartbreak of all is that you have women, parents who are together and it's, you see it in neighborhoods. And this is, I'm not judging. You just see it in neighborhoods. The parents all get together, they're all having some drinks, the kids are over here playing. What happened to, I actually love my kids and want to be present to them, and have the kids present with [00:15:00] us so that they can see us watching them. Yeah. But we're unable to because we're looking for the relief from all the other things that we're, we're B. Reeves: going through. Justin Mclendon: Right. Yeah, absolutely. B. Reeves: So how did you, so you work with women, you've mentioned your own struggles with alcoholism and your recovery. How did you go from being a traveling software executive, super mom, wonder woman, trying to have the Pinterest perfect life to now being an interventionist coach and sober companion. Everything you do. How did you make that transition? Shauna Vick: Well, my life imploded, as I said, and let me tell you, when I say in my bio, it'll say something like a devastating relapse. I kid you not. It was a devastating relapse for me. Tell us about it. I will. The, the, I have no problem sharing my story. I have no problem recovering out loud. I feel that I, you know, [00:16:00] I'm grateful that I had another chance at life. I will often say that you don't have to hit rock bottom to seek help or get recovery. That is not my story. I hit rock bottom and it was so bottom. So I realized that. You know, I had not realized, I know from the time I pick up a drink that I don't want it to stop. I always want one more. I was seeking that relief because I had lived for so many decades in sobriety. So let me, let me clarify. I was sober. Working a program and then I was dry. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. I wasn't working any sort of program. I was being very self-reliant. And then I was in what I call prolapse mode. Mm-Hmm. . Sure. And a lot of old behaviors that aren't healthy behaviors for me were coming up. And then I took that drink and I was in a relapse for about two and a half years and. I could not [00:17:00] understand why I could not get sober again. I was hopeless. I couldn't, I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades. Without alcohol, why could I not get back there with, and the disease does progress. I mean, I, I have been on other podcasts and you know, I've heard other people talking about a continuum of alcohol use. You know, you have alcohol use, maybe the social or moderate drinker. Who can actually stick to the three drinks a week or doesn't even have to think about sticking to three drinks a week because they can take it or leave it and they don't. And then you have, you know, and I'm not a clinician, so this is the Shauna alcohol use continuum. It's not written anywhere. Alcohol use, misuse, abuse. dependence and addiction. Well, you know, as through my life, my disease progressed, even though I wasn't drinking and I was an alcoholic early on a very high bottom. I just walked into an AA meeting and realized I need to change my relationship with alcohol. I was successful at work. I was a [00:18:00] single woman. I just moved to the States from Canada and I was transferred there. There was, I had no consequences that had happened, but I knew that it Alcohol was actually holding me back. And so I knew because I also come by it genetically my mother was an alcoholic, my grandfather was an alcoholic that I, I just knew that I had a disordered relationship with alcohol. One was too many for me because two's never enough. And so When I first entered the rooms of AA or I first sought help, I was what I would call very high bottom. With the disease progressing, I was in and out of treatment. Well, let me tell you a bit about how I started drinking. When I was on a business trip, so it's very safe, my husband wasn't there and I thought, oh, you know, I haven't drank in however many years, I'm, who cares, I'm just going to have one. Well, of course, I couldn't stop drinking that night. And I thought it was just a [00:19:00] slip. I thought it was a one off, an outlier. Like, oh, okay, so I never really did regain control of being able to. But it felt good and I got that relief and I felt different. I had been so uncomfortable in my skin and in my life. I wanted to change the way I felt. I knew alcohol could do that for me. So it wasn't for about six or eight Weeks later, maybe 12 weeks later until I picked up again. Hmm. And then it was maybe four weeks. And then it was three weeks, then it was two weeks, then it was regular. Now you have to remember that I hadn't drank. Everyone knew me as Sober Shauna. I was always the designated driver. I never drank. I was always very open about that I was in recovery. So I had to drink in my closet in my car. I had to drink in secret. And we know that secrets do keep us sick. And I had to. I had to. I couldn't let [00:20:00] people know I was drinking. I mean, they eventually figured it out. But I hid it as well as I could until I couldn't. And I had to take a leave of absence from work and I I did a a gradually escalating treatment. I started with an IOP and it wasn't enough for me. And I went away to an inpatient treatment and I took a long term leave of absence because I knew I wanted to get my recovery back. And I had some bumps through the way, Picked up a couple of times and ended up, you know, in that course of two and a half years, I probably only drank about seven months. But because when I picked up, I went right down to that very dark rock bottom place and I had to be separated from alcohol in order not to drink. So I, you know, I, Went to treatment three times, I lived in sober living for four months, I did every IOP in the Raleigh area, I just moved around. And I also had some [00:21:00] sober time and I went to 12 step program and I had some sponsors and I just, I wouldn't give up. Although there were times that I felt like giving up, I was hopeless at times just saying if I picked up again and I was down in that dark place, you know, I tried to kill myself a couple of times, you know, because I thought I can't keep doing this to my family. There has to be, like, something has to happen. Right. And. The miracle happened when the miracle happened. It took what it took. You know, in retrospect, Justin, you can appreciate this. The first time I went, I went for 30 days. It was recommended that I stay longer. I stayed 45 days. We know that 30 days of treatment is an insurance not a scam, an insurance recommendation based on insurance. My total time in inpatient treatment upon reflection is 90 days. Hmm. How about that? Over the course of two and a half years, but it was 90 days and I haven't picked up a drink since after that last trip and I'm very active in my own [00:22:00] program and I took the time off. I took the time off from work. You asked how I made the change. Sorry, little ADHD, so I'm going a little tangential here. Took the time off from work, took a leave of absence. I did resign from that position. We made a family decision that I, you know, wasn't going to go back to to selling software, not because I couldn't do it, but because I wanted the second half of my life to mean something. B. Reeves: I get it. I sold software before I was. We came to this field as well. Shauna Vick: Yeah, because I just wanted to be able to give back. And I, I loved selling software. I loved my life. I loved everything. But we made some really difficult decisions. I would no longer be able to do that Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother. Have that Pinterest perfect life, we made some financial decisions and sacrifices for me to be able to do that to take the year off, it did coincide with COVID I was able to homeschool my daughter for a year, and I [00:23:00] did all of my certifications that year as well for coaching and for sober transport and sober companion so I spent time Thank you. Transitioning by doing that in that year and then more recently I became a certified interventionist. So that's how I made the jump. It was, it was a risk. And I'm grateful that I did it because I'm able to see where I can help people. And I, you know, I'll go to the ends of the earth for my clients do a lot of value added services around around that. I said to someone last night, I said, I feel like. What I provide to my clients is the Cliff Notes version of how to get and stay sober because I tried it for so long. For those two and a half years, I tried everything. Sober companion. I tried a coach. I tried treatment. I tried IOP. And they all failed. Contributed to me getting well, oh and therapists and psychiatrists, so that's how I made, but it was, I got to tell you B, it [00:24:00] was, there are some sacrifices that come with it, but I'm no longer driven by that need to keep up and, you know, being happy, joyous, free, a simpler life has has really benefited me. I spend time in my garden now out by my fire pit. It's one of the lines I use my coach. How do you create a life that you no longer need a vacation from? How do you create a life that, you know, not longer need to get relief from what needs to change? Yeah, B. Reeves: I hear, well, you know, working in this field often, you know, especially when I'm out on the road doing more of the outreach part. And, and also here, you know, I just, sometimes I'll. Over have this sensation. Like, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm working. And it's a familiar feeling. Cause I used to feel it five and a half, six years ago because I wasn't, and I was supposed to be, but I was like still asleep or, you know, telling somebody I was somewhere [00:25:00] else or whatever. But the feeling of like, I'm not working, but I'm actually at work working is great. Because that means I love what I'm doing. So absolutely. And it is fun. And we'd like the vacation part, you know, they're limited in this field, but you know, it's you know, it's a, it's a pull. It's attractive to. be able to help people is part of part of our work. So Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's it's great stuff. I mean, to be able to, to work in a field where we get to provide value to people and help hopefully, you know, guide people to living a better, a better life, a better way of living to where they can have some of that relief incorporated into their day to day existences. I mean, I can't think of anything. better to do for work, to be honest with you. A little biased, but. Shauna Vick: No, I, I'm with you, Justin. Just to see someone be able to have that interior joy or delight with simpler things and to be able to take that deep breath. [00:26:00] And pause, maybe they've started a mindfulness practice, maybe they're doing something. And I was at a lunch today with actually your previous guest on the podcast. And I said to him, I said, I used to function at such a frenetic pace. I was, you know, and you probably saw it at the beginning of the podcast because it was amped up and ready to do it. And then, you know, I. Take a deep breath, and I slow down, and I'm much more deliberate in my speech, in my actions throughout the day. And I credit that to my mindfulness practices, right? I spend an hour and a half in prayer and meditation in the morning to calm me, to ground me, to center me, so that I can have the space and be present where I am. Whereas before it was always, what else do I need to do? What do I need to do? And I got to get this done, got to get this done. And it's this frenetic pace. And I, I don't live like that anymore. And maybe that's how it feels like you don't need, because you do need a vacation from that. You cannot, it is unsustainable to stay at that frenetic [00:27:00] pace. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, B. Reeves: absolutely. But on the meditation subject, you know, I I tell people this a lot is, you know, we still, we all still need some kind of relief. And the truth is, I still. Like I still like to feel good, but I just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen anymore. And so, you know, prayer and meditation and, you know, a program of recovery. But, you know, I meditate twice a day every day and have for almost the entire time I've been sober. And you know, it's like, and when I'm spiritually fit and some days, even though I do the same thing every day, there are certain, you know, sometimes I just wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Sometimes there's something in external force that's a little more powerful than I want it to be or whatever it is. But when I'm spiritually fit and on the beam, as we say, all that, you know, Pinterest, perfect life stuff is just means nothing to me. But when I'm rattled, then I can start looking at my friends who are like, you know, building a second home at the beach or whatever, and start really judging my comparing my insides to other people's outsides. But being spiritually [00:28:00] fit, I'm able to, when I, when I'm really on the beam. And all that is just completely meaningless to me. Shauna Vick: And Oscar Wilde said, comparison is the thief of joy. Right. Love that. Love that. That is exactly where I go to be. As soon as I start to feel like I'm losing my joy, it's usually because I'm comparing. And so I'm not settled inside. And I love what you said about, I still do things to make myself feel good. You know, one of the things that brings me so much good feeling is. I go outside by my fire pit that I built myself. I dug up in the ground, built this fire pit in the coldest of mornings and I light my fire and throughout the winter I will be out there in the middle of the afternoon just for an hour for whatever reason. It just makes me feel good sitting, maybe because I'm Canadian and I just love being outside in the cold with the [00:29:00] warm fire. But there's something about it and I I figured it was very meditative for me. So it was like getting in some extra meditation time. And I don't know if you've ever seen the Muse headband for meditation. It gives neurofeedback. And last week I was curious to see if I was in a meditative state when I was out there tending the fire. Because Why do I feel so good after it? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I'm not talking to people. I'm not whatever. I mean, if people want to come over, absolutely. But I feel so good. One is the nature. And it's scientifically proven that when we sit in nature, it does impact our okay, Shauna, Shauna, not the non Shauna clinician quoting stuff, but something about hormones or something. Raises our level, maybe it's serotonin. But I wore the Muse headband while I was just tending the fire, flipping down. It's great for people with ADHD because you're always trying to figure out how to set the fire so the flames are building. But it was, I was in a pure meditative state, in a calm [00:30:00] state. And you hear the neurofeedback of birds when you're in that state. And that is why. That is one of the reasons that I think I feel really good. But. That's my number one go to is get outside. I have, you know, winter vegetables growing in my garden now, just going out and seeing how they're doing and, yes, talking to them. It just makes me feel good. But it's, it's amazing, Bea, isn't it? When you're spiritually fit, when you're not self medicating. with alcohol and drugs that there are simpler things that can make you feel good. Sitting with my daughter and playing a hand of cards, okay, it's not like a big dopamine rush, but it is more of, you know, the balancing hormones, the serotonin and just the good feeling. The good feeling body chemicals. Absolutely. And I couldn't have done that. Couldn't do that when I was drinking. Right. Right. Exactly. Right? Because [00:31:00] all I was thinking about is, when can I get her to sleep so that I can have more? Right. Absolutely. And what did I miss? Thank God it was only two and a half years. Justin Mclendon: For sure. And we don't have to live like that anymore, right? So coaching, if you don't mind, if I shift gears with you, I'd love to hear a little bit about so as you mentioned, so coaching sober companion what else is it? Interventions. And interventions. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what does that look like for you? What kind of clients do you serve? What is, what does that look, what does the work Shauna Vick: look like for you? What does the work look like for me? Well, so we've been, I've been doing a lot. More interventions than the coaching and that's just, you know, when people are coming out of treatment they are usually doing some some sort of intensive outpatient, they're seeing a therapist, they might be in a 12 step program to have an extra layer of support, not always necessary. So the coaching I don't do a lot of that. type of coaching, the recovery coaching or sober coaching that I [00:32:00] do are more with the gray area drinkers. Just like I was saying, like say the women who are using too much wine may not feel like they're abusing it, but want to change. So they're in this gray area on the continuum. So do some coaching with them again, more of the additive. So what do you need to add back in your life? What is, what is your ideal life? look like, how, you know, how do you stay present with your children and your family? How do you manage your stress? And we look for those things. So that's what the coaching, the other coaching that I've done a lot of recently is for young adults or emerging adults, college age youth. They're all the kids of my friends. They say, Shawna, you got to give some coaching. And so many. cohorts of children lost children, adults, young adults lost so much during COVID. They lost their ability to do even life skills, planning, organizing, interacting. And so, I do that life skills emerging adults. So what do I do next or finding your purpose?[00:33:00] My, my niece and nephew who are college age, we're sharing with. The, their family and friends over Christmas, how lucky they were that they had a life coach for an aunt because they could call me and I do a lot of coaching with them and, and they were grateful for that. But that's why I'm invested in that age group because I see it in my nieces and nephews. So that's the coaching side and the companion. I am a live in sober companion, usually for women who are chronic relapsers like myself and the, purpose is to really help them to establish their life in recovery and wrap their real life around their recovered life. What happened to me is I came home and it was like, mom's home, Shauna's home. Okay. Everything goes back to normal. And I had to wrap my recovery around my life. Doesn't, that's, that is unsustainable. Right? Recovery first. Live next. So I do, I've just launched for 2024. The [00:34:00] 24, or pardon me, the 72 hour transition companion and specific for women coming out of treatment who may have been a couple of times. Mm-Hmm. . And for that extremely vulnerable time. Yes. That first 72 hours when you leave the bubble of treatment. And you're going home and when you leave, when you leave your house to go to treatment, you've been in your disease and your my life is a blank show. It's did you like that? You didn't have to beat me, beat me, beep. So it's a, it's a. A really you're in a bad spot and you have to go home to that and the shame associated with that. It can unravel a lot of the great work that you did in treatment where you were surrounded by staff, therapists, other women that you processed with out on the patio. You know, if things, you had a bad phone call home, you might not have been able to see your therapist, but you could process with people. How do you go from that? All of that support to [00:35:00] back where you were last in your disease. Justin Mclendon: I mean, this, B. Reeves: that 72 hours is so crucial. I don't know what, I'll never know the answer to this, but. I got home from treatment at 10 30 in the morning on a Wednesday and a guy took me to a meeting at noon and then some other friends I knew took me to a meeting that night and I, if I hadn't gone to a meeting that same day, I just don't know what would happen because I, I just, it's so important for it to be a continuum, whether it's, you know, going from detox to res to IOP or just from treatment to, The room's a recovery, but I, I think that is absolutely a great idea to have that 72 hour landing pad, Shauna Vick: if you will. It is. It really is. And so I pick up, we pick up the women at treatment, travel home with them, and we're there for that first 72 hours. The first trip to the grocery store. Yeah. First meetings, what meeting are we going to today? You don't have to walk in there alone. That's [00:36:00] huge. It is huge. So it's been very well received by the treatment centers. And, you know, considering how much we invest in treatment, it's a, it's a small investment because hiring a sober companion for three weeks or four weeks is daunting. It's as much as the cost of treatment and not saying I wouldn't do it. And I've done many engagements like that, but I really think this 72 hours is so much more consumable. And so much more helpful. So I'm doing that. And then of course the interventions is the invitational style, a gradually escalating style where the whole family is involved. It's a six month contract. And we work with the family and the person of concern. It's not an ambush style intervention. It is not surprised the, the person of concern is invited to. participate, they may or may not participate, but it's really about healing the family and the intergenerational trauma so that everyone gets well and we can pass recovery down to the next generation. So it's the arise model for interventions. And then [00:37:00] the sober companion, the 72 hour transition companion, and you know, we provide transportation. To and from just takes the burden off the family to have to transport their loved one to treatment. It really, and I mean the emotional burden, the emotional burden, I don't want to go. I don't really want to go. It just, it eliminates all that. It's a benefit to the family and then the coaching. And so with that, with the 72 hour transition companion, I also will meet with them weekly. By Zoom if they're not local or meet with them weekly for three months. So that is just all part of it to, you know, so that they always have someone on their, on their team because our care teams go wide and deep. So to have an additional person, Oh, and I do, the other thing is do is event companions. So if someone has a wedding. or a board meeting or whatever, or a sales meeting and then travel, I'll go and become a bit of a [00:38:00] chameleon. Oh, I'm just I've done a few weddings. Oh yeah, I'm just, they'll just say, Oh, this is an old friend of mine from Raleigh. And I'm just there with the, with the mother of the bride or as a wedding guest, additional wedding guests. So that's that's been really fun. Justin Mclendon: That's really smart. I mean, that is really smart because I mean, how many times, right? I mean, gosh, how many times have I heard? How fearful someone is about you, you name it, right? Exactly. Those things, especially, especially, you got the champagne toast. I mean, all the various situations that people get just really, really afraid of. How are they going to navigate that? You know? So, I mean, I think that's just ingenious, right? To, to have somebody there in your corner. You know, just incognito, just there for support and if you need them, I mean, that's, that's great. Shauna Vick: Yeah. That's really good. Then I haven't done this, but executive companions for back to work, you know, um, how I position it is that I'm just a consultant and they just say they're a consultant and because you be, you could do that too. We've been in business for so many [00:39:00] years. We can easily you know, fake our way through or fit right in and we're just, they just hired me for a project and it doesn't have to be, but it's someone there who you can process with through the day. Just, just having someone in your corner, you don't have to do anything. You just have someone there in your corner in the most stressful times. Justin Mclendon: Cause I mean, for a lot of people, I mean, that is the most stressful part of trying to, you know, figure out how you're going to navigate the new life and recovery is. Those type of things, right? How am I going to deal with my family? How am I going to do these events? How am I going to go back to work? You know, all of those things. So, I mean, I just feel like that I can see where that would be extremely helpful for a lot of people. So, that's great. I'm really glad that you're doing that, Shauna Vick: Sean. And I'm loving it too. You know, like I, I love it. Like you said, there's not a lot of vacation time because even when we're on vacation, we're getting calls, you know, there was a survey on LinkedIn that said, well, you take calls from clients over the holidays. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like it's, it's crazy. It's the most difficult time for clients, of course I will. [00:40:00] And my family is so grateful that I'm sober that they are like, go, go take your calls. Or if a sponsee calls, I sponsor women in the AA program, if a sponsee calls right at dinner time, the whole family goes. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. You know, no one has ever said anything about that because they know in order to keep it, I have to give it away. But I called my company Return to Joy Recovery. Return to Joy. And the reason for that is that I had lost my joy when I was seeking that Pinterest perfect life. I had always been known as Happy Shiny Shauna and I didn't feel it. I could still fake it to a point, but I didn't feel it inside. And that's the difference between happiness and joy and that just joy for living. And I spent time, I bought my company website. a year before I relapsed because I knew I wanted to eventually go into recovery coaching and into this. And so I bought Return to Joy Recovery before I ever picked up my first drink. And isn't that cool? Yeah, [00:41:00] that's cool. Because I really wanted to return to joy. That was when I was in that pre lapse mode. I knew that I wasn't joyful. I didn't have that peace in my heart. And so that's why I named it to Return to Joy, so I can help people navigate their path back to joy. to a joy filled life. Justin Mclendon: I love that. I love that. And we'll also make sure to put all of your contact information, social media handles, all that in the, in the show notes so that everybody can access that as Shauna Vick: well. I try to stay current on content with social media, but I have a 15 year old who I say needs to stay off her phone, and so I try to model that, and then I find that I have to be on it, you know, to Stay relevant and stuff, but I I do have social media handles and have a website and, and I always will take any call. That's the other thing. You know, people get are afraid to call an interventionist because they're afraid that it's going to be this big deal. We have hijacked that term in behavioral health, but [00:42:00] that's what it is. And really we intervene with each other on a daily basis. We might ask someone to eat healthier, a loved one to eat healthier. That's an intervention for intervening. And I don't want everyone, anyone to ever be afraid to pick up the phone just to chat. Like call me if you think you have a problem. If you think you may have a disorder relationship. It's a judgment free, you know, call. Judgment free 30 minutes. Let's chat about it. I don't want anyone to feel alone like they have no one to B. Reeves: call. What you just said reminded me of the two best pieces of advice I got when I started working in this field. Number one, don't let my job be my program of recovery. They can complement each other, but they are separate. Correct. And then number two is always answer the phone. Because I get so much joy out of getting a call when there's no way this person is going to make sense for our program. Right. Giving them, sharing a contact, and giving them your number, giving them whoever's number. It is, it's just a great feeling to be able to at least help, even if it's not going to be [00:43:00] like, they're coming here. But that, I mean, that's what so much of this job is about, is literally sharing. Phone numbers with each other. Shauna Vick: Right, exactly. And we do it, we do it joyfully. It might mean, like someone said to me, Sean, I was going to call you up, I was going to pass an intervention over to you. You know, that's from a business perspective, you don't necessarily want to change over, but he's like, it wasn't a fit for me. I think it would be a better fit for you. And I do the same thing. I had someone call it. I'm so sorry, this is way out of my scope. I'm going to refer it to someone else because we always want people to have the right, and we know how to navigate through. Exactly. Even if you don't need an intervention, you know you want to go to treatment, but you don't know where you want to go. Exactly. Because we're the ones who are doing the research, right? Right. B. Reeves: We're the ones who know us. I mean, I just always want to encourage them to call us. Instead of trying to do their own research because that can end in Justin Mclendon: total disaster. Total disaster. I can't. You know, I was just having the same conversation with someone last night at the dinner in that, you know, the treatment community, I guess if we want to call it that, [00:44:00] like nationally, is, is huge, right? I mean, there's so many treatment centers, there's so many people involved in this work. But the, the funny thing is that like, it is still so small, right? Everybody knows everybody, everybody knows what each, each program and each person is doing and what the specializations are. And that just feels so good to me that as, as we're saying, right, you get those phone calls and. He also knew who's doing good work and who's not doing good work. And just being able to get that person connected to where they need to go so that they have a fighting chance at having some change happen. I mean, it's just, I, I can't think of anything else that I would rather be, be doing for B. Reeves: sure. Definitely. I was talking to a personal friend this morning. I've known my for my entire life. And I, he's got a situation with a friend and coworker who, who needs help. And he keeps just profusely thanking me and saying, I'm like, man, you have no idea this. This helps me if nothing else. This helps me say so sober one more day. And it's just, I mean, it's, I hate to say it's fun, but it kind of is because it feels so [00:45:00] good just to be. Doing anything we can to, to help people. Shauna Vick: Absolutely. Definitely. And I, you know, I have a call to action. If there's any women out there that are drinking a bottle of wine a night, just give me a call. Yeah. Doesn't mean we're going to have you stop. I'm just curious. I'm just curious. You know, if you're drinking a bottle of wine a night, what are you not doing? What are you missing? Right? Let's see if there's something we can help you pull back in because I'm just gonna say it And this is not just a bottle of wine a night. It's too much to be drinking. It's too much Justin Mclendon: and if you're drinking and I'll throw this out there because I think there's a big misconception and Not to start this whole conversation back up again. But as you mentioned, I think social media media. I mean, we have a lot of shows out there now, not to kind of call anything out, but that really glamorizes drinking alcohol use. I mean, it's just very mainstream. I mean, you see it everywhere. And bottle of wine a day, you are going to experience withdrawal symptoms [00:46:00] from that. You really are like you, you're going to need some medical assistance to stop, discontinue that drinking. And I think a lot of people, don't know that, they don't realize that, they just see it as, you know, this is, this is normal, this has been normalized, this is a routine for me, it's not a problem, I haven't had a DUI, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is, is like when it reaches that volume and you're doing it consistently, it is a Shauna Vick: medical problem. It is a medical problem and people joke around about having the shakes in the morning. They joke around about having the shakes in the morning, right? Oh, it's no big deal, I just drank too much last night. It actually is a big deal. It Justin Mclendon: absolutely B. Reeves: is. And the, the normalization factor and, and it, you know, I, I knew that I partied pretty hard, but I, but, but the people I grew up around and went to school with, it was, it was normal the way we behaved. I remember one time I was I was talking to one of my best friends on a Saturday after I'd been at a rehearsal dinner for a wedding the night before and he was asking me how it was. I was like, yeah, standard. I drank 25 vodka [00:47:00] sodas. Just sort of kidding, but realized that I was completely serious. And then, you know, it's funny, he's actually now sober now for a few years, too. It's amazing. But we still joke about the 25 vodka soda thing and how we thought it was normal because it was for us. But that is so far from normal. I mean, that is so far from normal. Shauna Vick: Right. And I, Justin, I don't think we hear that enough, too, about The withdrawal and how difficult it is, especially if you're also taking prescribed Xanax, right? You're taking a prescription drug from which you need actually to medically withdraw from, which is why I'm grateful, you know, for new waters, because I've referred a few clients here to have such a phenomenal. Place here in Raleigh and even if you don't live in Raleigh to come here because of the way you address the mental health Aspects you do the assessments the mental health assessment the alcohol assessment you can really it's a really great launching pad It's a really great launching pad, and I know it's you know [00:48:00] But I, I do fear for people. That's what I'm saying. If you're drinking a bottle of wine at night, call me, but don't stop. Don't stop drinking. I'm not going to have you stop. Right. But just call me. Yeah, just call me. Let's just talk about it. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. So again, we'll put all your stuff in the show notes, but since you're giving that offer to people, do you want to share your number now on the podcast? Oh, sure. Shauna Vick: It's 919. 867 1505. And that's a number where you can talk or text and yeah, call me. I have no problem. It's a Google voice number so that you know. B. Reeves: Well, Shauna, you I'm so happy for all that you're doing, because when I first met you, you were doing more just the coaching, but now to see that you're doing interventions and just you just, it's amazing. I'm really happy to see what you're doing and we love working with you. So thank you so much for being here today. Yes. Thank you. Shauna Vick: You know, I usually would say this at the beginning, but I am, I'm really honored to be here and to be part of, I've [00:49:00] loved listening to all of your podcasts and all of your guests and how just transparent and real you address the issues. So thank you. Thank you. And Justin, it's great. I've known you for so many years. It is, it's great to be able to sit here and share this experience with you. Likewise. Thank Justin Mclendon: you. Likewise. It, it really warms my heart to be sitting here with you, Shauna, and having this conversation. I mean, you do not help. Can we, can we tell them? Can Shauna Vick: we tell them? You can tell them. Yes. Is that okay? Go for it. So, when I relapsed my first therapist was Justin and I, I do say that Justin saved my life because I was hopeless and I needed a higher level of care than I was getting and he introduced me to the treatment center where I did go. And so I, he facilitated me getting well and he stuck with me. And not only that, I was sharing this. With someone that hit you were [00:50:00] so unconditional in your regard or your support for me. I never felt alienated. I never felt like I, yes, I knew I'd made a mistake. I was self flagellating enough and you didn't have to do it for me. But it was that unconditional. Therapeutic love in a therapist way that unconditional positive regard say that allowed me to have the space to seek getting well as opposed to continuously bashing myself. You just, I knew I would never give up, but you also never gave up on me. And that's why I do for my clients. I will never give up on them if they continue to like. Clawing after getting well, trying to get well. If you're not going to get, I will work as hard as you. I will never give up. And that's what I really felt from you, Justin. I you played a big part in my sobriety and recovery. Justin Mclendon: I appreciate it. I was grateful [00:51:00] to be a part of it. And Shawna, I could not be any more proud of you. So good. Shauna Vick: It is nice to still hear that Justin Mclendon: people are proud of you. That's so proud. Yeah. Thanks. Well, Shauna, thank you. Thank Shauna Vick: you. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Great. Awesome. Thank you. Bye.

In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sarah Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, < Back to Episodes Redefining Addiction Treatment Dr. Sara Koenig : Compassion, Transparency, and Trauma-Informed Care 44:17 min | Dr. Sara Koenig | Finding New Waters In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sara Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, setting realistic recovery goals, and building supportive family dynamics. Her approach is rooted in honesty, transparency, and a commitment to fostering real, lasting change in her clients’ lives. Subscribe “Addiction happens in the shadows, and to come out and ask for help is one of the bravest acts a person can do.” -Dr. Sara Koenig Show Notes In this enlightening episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Joanna Lilley, a Nationally Certified Counselor and the founder of Lilley Consulting. Joanna shares her unique approach to working with young adults and their families, helping them navigate the challenges of mental health, substance use, and academic setbacks. With over a decade of experience in wilderness therapy and higher education, Joanna discusses the importance of taking the time to truly understand each client’s needs and matching them with the right resources. She emphasizes the value of transparency, honesty, and the delicate balance between being supportive and direct in guiding young adults toward success. ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and episode overview. - **[01:00] Meet Joanna Lilley**: Joanna introduces herself and her work as a therapeutic consultant. - **[04:00] From Counseling to Consulting**: Joanna discusses her transition from working directly with young adults in wilderness therapy and higher education to consulting with families. - **[08:00] The Importance of Transparency**: Why honesty and transparency are crucial in building trust with both young adults and their families. - **[13:00] Challenges Facing Young Adults**: Joanna shares the trends she’s observed in mental health, substance use, and the impact of COVID-19 on young adults. - **[18:00] Tailoring the Approach**: How Joanna customizes her consulting services to fit the unique needs of each young adult and family. - **[24:00] The Role of Families in Recovery**: The importance of parental involvement and setting realistic expectations for success. - **[30:00] Final Thoughts and Resources**: Joanna provides advice for families and shares how they can get in touch with her for support. ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Personalized Consulting**: Joanna’s approach to understanding the full picture of each young adult’s situation before recommending resources or treatment options. 2. **Transparency in Consulting**: The importance of being honest and direct with both the young adult and their family to ensure effective outcomes. 3. **Trends in Young Adult Challenges**: The increasing prevalence of anxiety, OCD, body dysmorphia, and cannabis use among young adults, particularly in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic. 4. **Family Involvement**: How Joanna works with families to ensure they are aligned and supportive throughout the recovery or academic process. 5. **Cultural and Geographic Considerations**: The importance of considering a young adult’s background and preferences when matching them with programs. ### Guest Bio: **Joanna Lilley** **Founder, Lilley Consulting** Joanna Lilley holds a Master’s degree in Counseling from West Virginia University and is a Nationally Certified Counselor. With over ten years of experience working with struggling adolescents and young adults in wilderness therapy and higher education, Joanna now operates Lilley Consulting, where she serves as an independent matchmaker between young adults and the resources they need to succeed. Her balanced approach, combining empathy with directness, has helped many families navigate complex challenges in mental health and addiction. ### Resources Mentioned: - **Lilley Consulting:** https://lilleyconsulting.com (https://lilleyconsulting.com) ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)) ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)) - **Google Podcast:** [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw)(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw%5D(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw)?authuser=0) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. #YoungAdultRecovery #MentalHealthSupport #TherapeuticConsulting #JoannaLilley #LilleyConsulting #FindingNewWatersPodcast #FamilySupport #SuccessIsSubjective Show Notes In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sarah Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, setting realistic recovery goals, and building supportive family dynamics. Her approach is rooted in honesty, transparency, and a commitment to fostering real, lasting change in her clients’ lives. ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and episode overview. - **[01:00] Meet Dr. Sarah Koenig**: Dr. Koenig shares her career path from academic medicine to addiction treatment. - **[04:00] Trauma and Addiction**: Why trauma-informed care is essential in treating addiction. - **[08:00] Overcoming Stigma**: The power of reducing shame and stigma for sustainable recovery. - **[12:00] Guilt vs. Shame in Recovery**: Dr. Koenig explains how guilt can be constructive, while shame can hinder healing. - **[18:00] Family Involvement**: How family dynamics and setting boundaries play critical roles in recovery. - **[24:00] Person-Centered Care**: The importance of respecting each patient’s story and adapting care to meet their needs. - **[30:00] The Power of Honest Communication**: Why transparency and open dialogue are key to successful treatment. - **[36:00] Final Thoughts and Resources**: Dr. Koenig shares advice and information on how to reach Triangle Wellness and Recovery. ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Trauma-Informed Approach**: The necessity of addressing trauma to fully support addiction recovery. 2. **Reducing Shame and Stigma**: Dr. Koenig’s insights into the destructive power of shame and how to combat it. 3. **Family Dynamics in Recovery**: How family support, boundary-setting, and open communication aid in long-term recovery. 4. **Person-Centered Treatment**: Focusing on the individual’s unique experiences and needs rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. 5. **Transparency and Honesty**: How compassionate, direct communication can help clients trust the process and sustain their commitment to healing. ### Guest Bio: **Dr. Sarah Koenig** **Founder & Medical Director, Triangle Wellness and Recovery** Dr. Sarah Koenig is a board-certified addiction medicine physician and the founder of Triangle Wellness and Recovery in Cary, North Carolina. With a background in academic medicine, Dr. Koenig transitioned to addiction treatment, where she specializes in trauma-informed, patient-centered care. Her approach is focused on reducing stigma, integrating mental health with addiction treatment, and fostering long-term healing for both individuals and families. ### Resources Mentioned: - **Triangle Wellness and Recovery:** [https://www.twrnc.com](https://www.twrnc.com) ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) - **Google Podcast:** [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. ### SEO Hashtags: #AddictionRecovery #TraumaInformedCare #MentalHealth #SarahKoenig #FindingNewWatersPodcast #FamilySupport #ReducingStigma #LongTermRecovery ### Powerful Quote: “Addiction happens in the shadows, and to come out and ask for help is one of the bravest acts a person can do.” – Dr. Sarah Koenig

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In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Transforming Lives: A Journey of Recovery and Family Intervention with Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers 44:33 min | Sam Davis + Darryl Rodgers| Finding New Waters Dive into the intricate world of addiction recovery with experts Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers in this enlightening podcast episode. Explore the importance of surrender and desperation, and learn practical strategies for seeking help, setting boundaries, and navigating interventions. Tune in to gain valuable insights from personal experiences and to understand the role of self-awareness, support, and accountability in this complex journey. This episode is an essential guide for those facing the challenges of addiction recovery, offering a deeper understanding of the journey and the steps towards a healthier future. Subscribe "Desperation is the catalyst for surrender, and surrender is the gateway to true recovery." -Sam Davis Podcast Transcript #019 Sam Davis & Darryl Rodgers Sam Davis: [00:00:00] What is desperation? What is surrender? We talk about surrender. We talk about desperation. I know for me and for countless others that I know in a process when you're giving up, you have to surrender old ideas. You have to surrender old beliefs. You have to surrender old habits. That is no different than surrendering when you're an army in a war. Sam Davis: Yeah. Or in combat. Surrender is surrender. I have never yet seen through history and I love history. Where an army or a country surrendered until they were desperate. B Reeves: That's a great point. Sam Davis: Exactly. So desperation is required. Yes. In order to surrender to, at the time such a foreign concept is recovered. Sam Davis: You know how foreign that is to, to us that our brain is telling us that if we don't have that substance in the next two minutes, we're gonna die.[00:01:00] B Reeves: All right welcome to another version of Finding New Waters. I am sitting here today with Sam Winston Davis, who is an interventionist in Darrell Rogers, who is a family recovery coach. And I'm glad to have both of them here. I recently, I met Sam over the phone. A few months ago we were working on a case together and we hadn't met in person. B Reeves: And then I had the opportunity to have lunch with him recently. And while we were talking I thought he would be a great guest for our podcast. And in our conversation before we met in person, he had told me about Darryl. And so I had Darryl come in one night and do a tour and have and come to our family group, which we do on [00:02:00] Wednesday nights. B Reeves: And then he came back cause he had never met Sam in person today to have lunch and do a tour. Then we roped Darryl in to be on this podcast with Sam. So anyway, I'm gonna shut up for a second and I'll start with Sam. Just tell us a little bit about what you do. Sam Davis: I'm an interventionist, and what that means is a lot of people think it means that we come in with sabers, rattling, loaded for bear, ready to just wrangle up their loved one, say some profound words and haul 'em off. Sam Davis: Or either yell at 'em, scream at 'em, point fingers, tell 'em they're an alcoholic and they suck and they need to go to treatment. That's what happened to me, but that my family did that. But that's not what an interventionist does. That's not what an intervention is. I'm there to guide families and provide strategy and options and a path for them to follow and to bounce things off of and to really just lean on and talk 'em out of the trees and just keep 'em on the path as best I can and help 'em, guide them through this.[00:03:00] Sam Davis: Rocky road of addiction. It's when we are all emotionally wrapped up into something, we can't see things very clearly. So you need someone that can, that's not emotionally attached to sit there and talk you through it. And that's what we do. Cool. We do in person. And there's nothing I'd rather be doing when I'm sitting in a family's living room, knee to knee, B Reeves: I hear you. And I love that feeling of feeling like I'm not working. I catch myself sometimes and I, cuz I feel like I'm not working. I'm overcome with a little bit of anxiety. Cause it's a familiar feeling from, about five and a half years ago, I had that very same feeling, but I, it was because I wasn't working and I was supposed to be, but this doesn't feel like work cause I love doing it. B Reeves: What about you? What do you do, Darryl? Darryl Rodger: Like you said, I'm a family recovery coach and my primary role is helping families understand what their proper role is in the recovery process. I think that a lot of times parents there's some enabling behaviors, rescuing behaviors, things like that, that they fall into. Darryl Rodger: And that's a [00:04:00] normal thing. It's normal when your child is in trouble that you want to help. But there are right ways to help and ways to help that aren't so good, that aren't healthy for for the person who is dealing with the addiction or for the family. And I help them work on that and provide some accountability. Darryl Rodger: Thank you. Would you mind B Reeves: sharing with us how you found yourself in this Darryl Rodger: world, so to speak? Yeah, so I made my own mistakes in that arena and so parents can, and I don't mind sharing those and parents can learn from that and. My oldest of two boys, chase, died in 2014 in a drug impaired wreck. Darryl Rodger: After struggling with addiction for about a year and a half, and I began doing prevention. I wrote a book that came out in 2015, began doing drug prevention speaking after that. And I just was looking for other ways to help families and it was actually interventionist that directed me towards pal, which is parents of Addicted loved ones. Darryl Rodger: It's a peer [00:05:00] support group for parents that have a child that is addicted to drugs or alcohol. And through the, through my volunteering with pal, I learned a lot about what families need in terms of education around dealing with their addicted son or daughter. B Reeves: How'd you get into this Sam Davis: line of work? Sam Davis: Man, I did a lot of cocaine, took a lot of methadone, smoked a lot of weed, and ate a lot of pills. I hear you. That's how that happened. I had been to several treatment programs. My family didn't really know what to do with me, and I knew that I was created to be something different than a bottomed out crack head. Sam Davis: I had no idea how to figure that out or how to make that happen. My family stepped in, got the education they needed, began to take action, fired me from the decision making as best they could with an interventionist, which was very effective. And I ended up in long term truly individualized care. And when I left there, [00:06:00] I knew that the message that I had received and the transformation that I had made, I knew then that there was a lot of families. Sam Davis: I. That needed some support, that needed a true message, that needed hope and needed a path, and it was just something in me. It wasn't of me, but it was in me because I'm, as an addicted individual, I was a very selfish, self-centered person, and I can still be very selfish and self-centered. So that's why I know that it was something within me, not of me, that has just laid this in my lap, who was like, this is what was supposed to happen. Sam Davis: And I went and got trained, and that was 12 years ago and hung out in my little shingle and been doing it ever since. B Reeves: That's awesome. I remember when we talked, I was asking you what you know, I don't know too much about I'm not an interventionist. I work with interventionists like yourself, but I know I'm speaking, I'm confident. B Reeves: I'm speaking for lots of people who will hopefully hear and see this. They see the, what they see on tv and it's only that [00:07:00] surprise. And I asked you, what you do and you seem to have a, your own kind of methodology that combines. Can you talk a little bit about that? About Sam Davis: Yeah. I mean there's the arise, there's the invitational model of intervention, and then there's the more classic surprise model of intervention. Sam Davis: I like to combine the two now most of the time on my interventions. They're on a need to know basis and right then and there, the individual doesn't need to know that's for their own good. It's not like we're trying to be deceiving or lying or anything. Like it's just a flat out, they're on a need to know basis and right now they don't need to know. Sam Davis: That's a large majority of them. But if I can find an opportunity to weave in an invitation without outright saying, Hey. We'd like you to come over next Wednesday evening and discuss your heroin problem, or discuss your drinking problem with the rest of us and our family issue. We don't really outright say that, but if we can wiggle in an invitation, we'll do [00:08:00] that. Sam Davis: Yeah. I'm doing a session where the individual is, was invited into the process. And I've done that several times. We'll invite them into the process and we'll slow the role of an intervention sometimes. That's more so really for the family. A family is it's very fearful of what an intervention would entail, which fear is a big liar. Sam Davis: Fear is fantasy. It's gonna show you worst case scenario. But we have to meet the families where they are and where their willingness and to set boundaries. And hold boundaries because you don't want 'em to set a boundary that they're not gonna hold. We'll do sessions with 'em an hour at a time, but we've, we're moving a lot of people to treatment without having to do that formal sit down intervention. Sam Davis: Now, nothing takes the place of that. There's a magic when the family sits down, their family's scared of death. They're always worried that their loved one's gonna run out and kill themselves, or they're gonna get angry and run off, that they're gonna get violent. All of these things that their fear tells 'em, right? Sam Davis: What it really is a very magical moment. It's a very powerful experience that no one in that living room or wherever you're having the intervention will ever forget. [00:09:00] I never forget 'em. I may lose track after years of, or may slip my mind, but if that family calls me to update me or just say Merry Christmas or whatever, which happens a lot, and they say their name and so many years ago today, you stepped in, it'll come right back to me. Sam Davis: They're extremely powerful experiences. It's a, it's an op, it's a place where families come in with love and support, but firm and direct and honest communication in a kind and loving way. And also direct. It's so powerful. I just, I can't explain it well enough how powerful of an experience it is. B Reeves: What, at what point in your, as a family recovery coach, I. Do you get to a point where you realize, hey, you're not holding boundaries as a family unit. I think you may need to talk to somebody like Sam. Have you had any experience like that you Darryl Rodger: could talk about? Yeah. I see. Darryl Rodger: I see parents get hung up on the decision making process a lot, where they're just overcome with fear. [00:10:00] And They need some help making that decision to either to give their child, an an option, either go to treatment and we'll pay for it, or you're gonna have to pack your bags and move out. Darryl Rodger: And I've seen situations where the child is living at home in their thirties and right on, and still using drugs and there's no, there are no changes taking place. And that's not good for the parents, not good for the child. And it is really about helping them make that decision to take some action and make a change. Darryl Rodger: Yeah, B Reeves: Both of you have mentioned fear and both of you think of both said boundaries, and that's something that we talk about all the time in recovery all the time on this podcast. I talk about it all the time In my personal life, in recovery, I. And I just talk about the creating of is one thing. B Reeves: It's like when somebody asks for help that's great, but then it's really all about the receiving [00:11:00] of the help. And then it's then the same thing with the boundaries. It's not for me to ever say those boundaries are for a family. And I'm, again, I'm not an interventionist, but I do have these conversations on a, very basic level of creating the boundaries. B Reeves: But then the next, the real magic is then the sticking to the boundaries. Can you talk a little bit about on how you advise families on what those boundaries are and what those kind of degrees of boundaries Sam Davis: are? I can tell you that when we first start working with the family, we're not coming out of the gate saying, Hey, you're gonna tell them to, it's this or the highway. Sam Davis: Because, You look at boundary, a boundary like a muscle, it has to be exercised and you just can't go start dead lifting a thousand pounds. You gotta start off with a little lightweight. So when it just, when someone, there's a lot of. Misinformation. Or misunderstanding around an intervention. Sam Davis: Cuz we've gotten a lot of calls through the years where they'll call and, Hey, can you be here this afternoon and intervene? And it really doesn't work that way. We want time to plan with the family and strategize and I [00:12:00] like to get 'em started on the intervention process starts as soon as they engage us. Sam Davis: We want them to start exercising that boundary muscle on a little smaller scale. Get the feel of it, feel the weight a little bit, feel. Figure out how it feels in your body. And express that boundary and watch how all of that fear that you had around setting that boundary didn't come true. Sam Davis: Starts building some confidence and they can set another boundary and another boundary. Plus, we want the individual to know when we walk in on them, the day of the intervention the loud one. That they have sensed already that some things have changed with the family. So this is not just something that they're pulling today. Sam Davis: Just another thing. Like they're serious. My family is very serious about this. B Reeves: That's interesting cause I've never heard it expressed like that kind of, leading, like building up to, when working the muscle, because that's such a great point. If all of a sudden these people who've just been enabling and enabling, and they don't mean to, my parents certainly didn't mean to, my parents are great and I should retract my statement. B Reeves: They didn't look at me and point a finger and say, you're an [00:13:00] alcoholic, you suck. They were worried sick and crying and sad and doing, just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And I was, I was probably gonna be intervened upon soon, but I went willingly. But But did you know these who have been enabling and giving and bailing out, and then all of a sudden one day they're just supposed to do a complete 180 and say, you're cut off, we're done. B Reeves: It's this or the highway, like you said. That's a great point. I've never heard it said like that. Like with the, one little thing. No, we're not gonna do this one thing that you're asking for. So just to plant the seed that things are changing, that the wheels are in motion that we are changing as a family unit because that's something that people. B Reeves: I talk to families every day about this. A lot of 'em see it as a sentence and a punishment for them. They're like, what? Why my kid or my husband or my wife, they're the one who has, they have the problem. Why do I have to change my ways? And what I've learned in my personal recovery and in this, in working in this field, Is that it's a kind of a gift for the families too. B Reeves: Even they don't have to go through what I went [00:14:00] through and what you went through to be, active alcoholics and addicts to get help and get better. These families in going through this process with you and with you, they not only get to help their son or their daughter or whatever, loved one it is, but they get to start healing themselves, Sam Davis: so then one very simple, yet very profound experience is to begin with, no. Yeah, it's a complete sentence. Complete sentence. And we'll find ourselves wanting to justify why we're saying no. Because internally it has nothing to do with them. It's about us, but just no. B Reeves: And just getting through that fear. B Reeves: Just feel that, Sam Davis: yeah, but feel with that set, that, sit with it. Notice through the experience that the skies aren't parting and the earth isn't crumbling and your loved one is maybe a little angry, but you're still surviving, and so are they. Yeah. You be, have to, you can have all the information, but you need to have an experience. Sam Davis: I can sit on the phone with somebody for 12 hours a day talking about an intervention and talking about this [00:15:00] and talking about that, but it's, you have to experience it. And it's really not something you wanna just dive right into the intervention day. You want to have the experiences leading up to it. Sam Davis: They build on each other. B Reeves: And so when you're prepping for an intervention and they can go from. A month out to what's the, the, tell me, what's the timeline? Sam Davis: I'd say average time's about five days. Okay. But it's, we're seeing some more complicated cases. We're seeing some more complex family systems. Sam Davis: Multiple substance use disorder, family members, lots of trauma. Covid hadn't helped We're, I'm, I am, I can only speak for me. I am, I don't know about other interventionists. It's starting to be a little bit longer process of the coaching and the prep work and the understanding and all of that. You know B Reeves: what I'll start with you. What, in terms of just substance what are, what do you [00:16:00] see the most? Darryl Rodger: In terms of like my, B Reeves: I, Darryl, my son is on. Darryl Rodger: Yeah, that's interesting. When first started it was opioids a lot. And now a lot of parents coming to me, it's marijuana is the main issue, is I think it's the increase in the potency of the marijuana that's out there now in, in in obviously different. Darryl Rodger: Forms, if you're smoking dabs or some other wax extracts, you can really high TC content then. Yeah. A lot of issues with that. Do you include Delta eight B Reeves: and Delta Darryl Rodger: nine in that? Yeah. And when I first started hearing about Delta eight parents in my group were telling me their children were experiencing, when I say children, teenagers, young adults obviously, but they're experiencing. Darryl Rodger: Some psychosis issues Yeah. Around Delta eight. Absolutely. And when they first started talking about [00:17:00] Delta eight, they were ahead of me. I was like what are you talking about? And I had to start doing my research on Delta eight, yeah. But but yeah I think a lot of people who are, there are people that I hear about who are trying to recover, and maybe they've been to treatment and. Darryl Rodger: And they're staying off of their substance, that's their go-to, that's their primary substance. But then they think Delta eight, that's not so bad and besides is legal. And so they'll go start experimenting with that a little bit and just something to take the edge off. Darryl Rodger: And I don't know, it'd be better if they were just completely sober, but if you're a parent, would, you'd rather they would be smoking Delta eight than shooting up heroin or something like that. For sure. Know for B Reeves: sure. But that, but it's, there's this myth that, marijuana, even though it's not legal in North Carolina, it's legal in so many states. B Reeves: It's been normalized for so long that. The general consensus is it's harmless. [00:18:00] Yeah. And it's absolutely not harmless. Yeah, that's correct. And like you said, the dab and the oil and the, all that makes it so much more potent. The, with the real withdrawal effects of that and Delta eight and Delta nine causing. B Reeves: Full on psychosis. And so it is funny though because that argument, it's basically, it's legal or, cuz the Delta eight and delta nine can be bought in a, a gas station. But so can beer and wine and booze, nobody really rights says that's harmless, what about you? What do you see the most of in your interventions in terms of substance? Sam Davis: Man, what is flooding? The news channels and social media and everything is fentanyl, right? You hear that everywhere and it's killing people. It's a very dangerous drug and there's a lot of 'em. Sam Davis: It's a bad thing. Horrible, but in my experience, what I'm seeing the most of, I certainly get the fentanyl cases and the Xanax and the cocaine and I get all of those, but by far it's marijuana and alcohol. B Reeves: Yeah. Here it's. I was sure that we were gonna see, probably 60 40, [00:19:00] if not, 60, 40 alcohol, 40% drugs, mainly opiates, specifically fentanyl. B Reeves: And we get, like you were saying, we get all that, but it's mostly, 80 to 90% people or people of people here are here for alcohol. We have plenty of benzos and. We get people here just from Delta eight and weed and all that, but it's mostly alcohol. It's still king alcohol. B Reeves: I wanted to change gears for one second because y'all met. I want you to talk about how y'all met each other. In this modern way, Sam Davis: man. I'm sitting there scrolling, TikTok. This handsome fellow pops up, starts talking about a message that resonated with me. He spoke my language. And a lot of people don't understand how big sober TikTok is and recovery TikTok, and everybody thinks it's about, kids dancing and doing silly challenges and things like that. Sam Davis: I started putting out some content about a year and a half ago, and I like being [00:20:00] creative. I feel I. I had stifled that for so many years, and the longer I'm sober, the more I'm authentic me. And I don't make apologies for that. And it goes along with that internal drive of there was a, It was a message to be given. Sam Davis: I started putting out some short form content on TikTok and grew pretty well and I've just met him on TikTok. We got the message and back and forth and all. Yeah, that's, and then B Reeves: here we are. Yeah. I don't know, and as you were telling me, just made me think, we're all, we all work in this, call it an industry. B Reeves: I feel dirty sometimes calling it that, but it is. And but I was just thinking, I wonder how many. Bankers would be like, Hey, why don't you know, you come. They're just, they're the collaboration. Unless it's for absolute profit, you don't find that in anywhere else, I don't think, we just, we just all want to help people and it's it's a beautiful thing to see people find each other in these as far as I can tell, none of us are teenage girls and yet TikTok, brought us together here today. B Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. And another I'm looking at your [00:21:00] hat. Says for the people who can't see us. Rule 62. Tell ' Sam Davis: em what, tell 'em about Rule 62. This one came from TikTok. I fell outta Georgia sent it up to me. I think it's from Georgia Hat Company. Okay. And he was in sobriety, he said, sent it with a note and said, Hey, I've been digging your message and your content. Sam Davis: Here's your hat. And I make 'em for some people that are sober. Rule 62 means don't take yourself so damn seriously. Yeah. And I have to, when I wear it, it's not wearing. Yeah. As much outward as when I'm looking in the mirror in the morning, looking in the mirror when I'm getting dressed, it's man, don't take yourself so damn seriously. Sam Davis: You're really not all that important. Yeah. And let's just go along with the flow of things B Reeves: today. Yeah. I need to see that. I need to hear that every day of my life. And so you tell me a little bit about what you do locally, like on a day-to-day. You have, you, you have a day job, right? Darryl Rodger: Nope. Okay. Then what, tell me about what you do on your day there. So actually, I, when I, what brought me to this area, I was a pilot. I flew for, okay. I flew for American [00:22:00] Eagle and I flew a commuter airline. Yeah. Right here outta Raleigh. And I flew a Apache Helicopters in the Army National Guard. Darryl Rodger: When we first moved here, I wanted to be close to the airport. Moved into Cary. And and we've been here ever since. But I've owned several small businesses over the years and when my son died, I wrote a book about his life and then I started getting some opportunities to do some speaking, public speaking. Darryl Rodger: And so I started doing drug prevention speaking, and I still do that. But started working with the parents in the Powell Group on a volunteer basis. And I'm also, I'm on the board for North Carolina Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. Against Drunk Driving, let me get that right against Drunk Driving, not against Drunk Drivers. Darryl Rodger: I'm on their board and and I do some speaking for them. And I was just doing some of the volunteer work and just realizing that parents, a lot of parents need a lot more than just that one. Meeting of [00:23:00] a peer support group one night a week. They need more accountability. Darryl Rodger: They need a structure that helps them move forward in the family recovery process. I'm launching a online group coaching program for families, four parents who need the. The help understanding their role in the family recovery process and then having that accountability, like I said, that they need. Darryl Rodger: I always tell parents that they don't have any control over what their son or daughter does, but they give their son or daughter their best opportunity to recover when they. Work on themselves. When they work on their own personal development, their own personal growth, their own spiritual growth their own self-care. Darryl Rodger: When they work on that, they're putting their child in the best position they can to recover. B Reeves: Love it. What so you being an interventionist and somebody in recovery, what do you see? [00:24:00] Just as what are we doing wrong? What can we be doing better as just. There's one thing you mentioned earlier that I want you to touch on, but if there's anything else, but, so we need to be, do more connecting, not as much selling. B Reeves: Is that right? Expand on that one. Yeah. Sam Davis: You Google treatment, drug treatment. Just Google it. Bad idea, by the way, for everybody listening. Yeah. Horrible idea, right? Just Google it. Yeah. You'll see. Yeah. Healing pines by the seashore, the tranquility life of Serenity Springs. Of the hope of love. Sam Davis: They can handle all of your needs. They'll say you've got, we handle cocaine addiction. We have a methadone track, a methamphetamine track. We have a marijuana track. All these different tracks. There's too much selling and not enough connection because I can tell you what's going on from my eyes. Sam Davis: When you look at the success rates of treatment center, we were talking about this earlier today, and it's been coming up for the last couple of days. When you look at success rates of, sometimes they [00:25:00] range, what, three to 15%? Yeah. Success rates, it's not good. And we have the public, and I'm not, I don't mean to sound like I'm putting all of this on the population in the public. Sam Davis: But we have to own our role in that. If you're looking at three to 18%, or three to 13, three to 15, whatever it is, either one of 'em are low, none of 'em are acceptable. You've got a population of people where I want to go out on a limb. I don't have the research to about it. I'm gonna only go by my experiences of what I've seen in the last 12 years. Sam Davis: And what is self-reported to me from families is that 90% of the families out here and individuals that are in treatment and families that put them in treatment have don't really know down at the level necessary. Internally why their loved one is in treatment. They think that it's just to learn how to cure them of drug addiction or cure them of alcoholism or learn, teach 'em how to say no. Sam Davis: And they don't know the role they can play in their recovery [00:26:00] through boundaries. So they, what's that word? You have 90% of fam of the public. Doesn't know really why they're in treatment or why they sent their loved one to treatment you, but they're saying treatment centers are horrible, which there's a lot of bad players, but there's bad players in every industry. Sam Davis: Yet the industry has an overall better s success. Like plumbing has some bad players in it, but I'm pretty sure that they can fix your leak if you call a plumber a hundred percent of the time. More than likely, right? Yeah. There's good, there's lots of great addiction treatment around the country. Sam Davis: The people are saying these success rates suck. If you can lower the number of families, the percentage of families that don't know really why their loved one, or they're sending their loved one to treatment or why they're in treatment, if you can lower that, you're gonna increase those success rates. Sam Davis: It's, we have the treatment industry needs to take some ownership and, hey, how are we giving information to the public? We're doing too much selling and not enough [00:27:00] connecting. And the public needs to recognize and be more aware of, hey, the more educated we get, the more boundaries that we set. Sam Davis: And the more we utilize our family power, the more success we're gonna see in our loved one when they go to treatment. B Reeves: I think about these stats a lot cuz they're not good. And I wonder, and I would love to hear y'all's thoughts on this. I, part of this is just my own personal take on this, is while it's a, it couldn't be it. B Reeves: It's a great thing. That the stigma is pretty much removed from addiction and alcoholism, it's not but is it Sam Davis: though? But is it though? Because, pretty much because I, you hear when people are snapping at the industry talking about treatment programs or run by, you'll see some of these articles come out and I find it alarming because they appear to, and they. Sam Davis: They're screaming that they're advocating for the poor, sick, and suffering addicted individual. And then they'll get in there in the same breath and say that treatment centers are run by former addicts and they say it in a shaming way, like that's a bad thing. I know. Recovering addicted individuals that are [00:28:00] flying your loved one across the country in an airplane. Sam Davis: I know. Recovered individuals that are operating on your son or operating on your grandmother in the hospital. B Reeves: Yeah. There's no one I trust more than somebody in recovery. Yeah. No, but what I, but I will retract pretty much the stigma's been removed, but it's way less than it was. B Reeves: Sure. 50 years ago or more. But let's say, and I don't want to mention the specific type of recovery that I'm in, but we can guess what it is, that was founded in 1935 and the odds then, And the stats, then the chances of recovery were triple what they are now. And I wonder if part of it is because now it's so socially acceptable to be, to go to treatment. B Reeves: And that there, that it's not just the shame of that is lessened. Not saying it's gone, the stigma's not gone. But it's way, it's lessened by, significantly. And the fact that it's so accepted, I wonder if. It, there's not the [00:29:00] severity of needing help that there used to be when people would get to that level when they did find sobriety and recovery. B Reeves: But now it's, that's why we see so many people that are in and out, frequent flyers we call 'em in these places, and I just wonder if that has something to do with it, where it's a good thing that the stigma's been lessened so much, but yet it's so acceptable to go to treatment that it's not, doesn't seem like that big a deal anymore. B Reeves: Am I crazy to think that? Darryl Rodger: That's a tough one. Yeah, there, there's a balance, there that we need to strike. Yeah, I think you may be onto something there. My views have changed, since, when my son when I first found out he had a problem, I was very judgmental of people who had a drug or alcohol problem. Darryl Rodger: I didn't understand. And certainly I would say that the stigma has been reduced. I see both sides of it. I see both sides of it and it's hard to say. I. Is that playing into people, maybe it is so much more acceptable [00:30:00] now. I don't know. I can't really answer that definitively. Darryl Rodger: Yeah. I just B Reeves: What Sam Davis: do you think? I can tell, and when this thing first kicked off in 1935, it was hard to get to the grocery store in 1935. There were grocery stores all over the country. Yeah. You know what I mean? It wasn't a comfortable ride. It was, it was 1935. Yeah. Sam Davis: This thing that you're talking about just was just created. It wasn't everywhere. It wasn't broadcast everywhere. Judges weren't sending people to it. There weren't treatment centers in every town. Yeah. There were sanitariums, and the sanitarium was not a place you really wanted to go. It sounds cool. Sam Davis: Kind of sounds like aquarium. Which is cool, but a sanitarium, my friend is not a comfortable place. Yeah. So none of that was good. And then you went to find your butt in a seat. Yeah. At one of those meetings. Yeah. From the thirties to the sixties or whatever. Yeah. There was some desperation on your part, to seek out that meeting and go in there and sit down. There was some desperation. I [00:31:00] think desperation is the key. Yeah. Yeah, because now you can just wave your hand and say, whoa, oh, go to treatment. Yeah. That's a great point. Hey. The judge says, Hey, you got, or sentence you to sentence me. Sam Davis: Yeah. What, B Reeves: so judge from the judge that, but that you're, that, that's a great point. There's so it's more accessible and it's more. It might be more acceptable, but yes. It's not like you, people don't have, the bottoms have been rising as well. Yeah. Whether and it's not always up to the person what that bottom is like. B Reeves: What we all do too. That as far as I know, there weren't real interventions then. There were 12 steppers, going to 12 step people, but not, there wasn't, there just weren't so many places to go and so many and Right. The accessibility of not just booze, but. Now, be online. B Reeves: People can be, have a pharmacy in their house in, 24 hours. Yeah. But anyway, I just think about those stats. Cause they're not good. And but you're right. And it was such a smaller sample size Sam Davis: too back then. And you think about it. Yeah. Like you walk into a meeting [00:32:00] today. Sam Davis: At the end of that meeting, this is just for an example. This is one example, maybe a weird example, but I'm gonna throw it out there. You walk into a meeting today, at the end of the meeting, you circle up and you sing. You say the Serenity Prayer, and everybody just sings it off, right? Grammy, the Serenity accepted things. Sam Davis: I cannot change the courage to change the things I can, and we all seem to do this, and the willingness to know the difference and then we go on. It's like this thing in the meetings today. It's just become so. What's the word I'm looking for? Desensitized. Yeah. Like transactional? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Davis: Like it's just something that we're doing probably back in the day. They're saying, Hey, you want a little bit of serenity to get you through until the next meeting so you're not jumping out of a window or jumping in front of a bus or suck starting a 12 gauge. If you want to be granted a little bit of serenity, hey, maybe you need to really sit in silence in the morning before you get cranking up. Sam Davis: And say to accept the things I cannot change. And then you sit there for a little while and try to figure out what are the things [00:33:00] that you cannot change. And then after you've done that young man, you're gonna wanna sit there for a little bit, the courage to change the things I can. And you're gonna wanna sit there and think about what can I change? Sam Davis: And then you're gonna really be seeking through the day the wisdom to know the difference. See that's some action that was put in that can that's action steps. And back in the day when you couple that with some des more desperation that people add back then. You're gonna get better results. B Reeves: And I'm glad you brought up desperation too, because all of this to me, what I see, what really gets people to get to make a change is the g o D gift of desperation. Because we can. Lead a horse to water and we can have interventions and we can get 'em there. And like I, it wasn't, I tell people this all the time. B Reeves: We can go get sober for anybody, but we can only stay that we have way for ourselves. And I don't think, I don't see a lot of people finding, I. Lasting recovery without desperation. That gift of desperation. And I hope I never forget how [00:34:00] desperate I was. Sam Davis: What is desperation? What is surrender, right? Sam Davis: We talk about surrender. We talk about desperation. I know for me and for countless others that I know in a process when you're giving up, you have to surrender old ideas. You have to surrender old beliefs. You have to surrender old habits. That is no different than surrendering when you're an army. In a war. Sam Davis: Yeah. Or in combat. Surrender is surrender. I have never yet seen through history and I love history. Where an army or a country surrendered until they were desperate. B Reeves: That's a great point. Sam Davis: Exactly. So desperation is required. Yes. In order to surrender to, at the time, It's such a foreign concept is recovery. Sam Davis: How foreign that is to, to us. That, that our brain is telling us that if we don't have that substance in the next two minutes, we're gonna die. Even though that's not true, our mind is just about [00:35:00] telling us that, and we're buying at hook, line and sinker. Yeah. It's like we're, you're asking us to stop breathing air. Sam Davis: So in order for us to embrace that step requires surrender. And that's really what an intervention is about too, is to help create some desperation. As long as I got options, I'm not getting well. I don't care. I don't care what, how many massages I'm getting, how many, how long I'm gonna be gone or how little I'm gonna be gone, or what state I'm gonna be in. Sam Davis: I'm not going and I'm not gonna get, if I don't, if I perceive I have options to stay, what? Stay the same. Yeah, Darryl Rodger: man. I'm thinking about how all of this applies to the parent side of things, and he's talking about desperation. What I tell people, it's when you have a child that's addicted to drugs or alcohol, I. It is like you have these butterflies in your, in the pit of your stomach. They never go away, never completely go away. And you're always, there's always this little fear in the back of your mind and just takes one little thing to trigger you really, [00:36:00] to really set you off like the phone rings late at night and the first thing you've tried to suppress all these fears, right? Darryl Rodger: But the first thought that pops in your head is that the police, what do they want? But parents, that desperation drives them to control. And that's the one thing they have to get so desperate that they realize they have, they don't have any control and they have to give up those attempts at control. Darryl Rodger: And I use this visual of an archer and imagine. Your child is an arrow and you place an arrow in the string, the target that you're aiming at is a general target in that I just want them to be successful and happy, and successful in terms of finding that thing that they love to do and being good at it. Darryl Rodger: And and you aim at that target, you draw that arrow back and you release that arrow with that string and. Guess what? It happens. A lot of times their parents pull back and they get that arrow [00:37:00] back there. They find their anchor point and they don't wanna let go. And the longer you hang on, guess what happens? Darryl Rodger: Your muscles start to burn. You start to quiver, you start to shake. You don't get a smooth release. You're less likely to hit your target, but that sensation of those muscles burning, that to me that's like. That's that stress that parents are feeling when they're still trying to hang on because there is this transition process from childhood through the teenage years to adulthood. Darryl Rodger: And I don't know that anybody's really taught how to do that as a parent, especially when you have, when your first child comes along and like they're going through the teenage years and there's all this turbulence and you're going. Is that just what teenagers go through or is there something else going on here? Darryl Rodger: And a lot of times it's hard to tell is it, I was going through that with our son. Is that, is this is this just him going through his teenage years or is he using drugs? And anyway they've gotta get to that point where they're so desperate [00:38:00] that they are and that they're coached up on this, where they can let go of that arrow and then it's in God's hands. Darryl Rodger: And your child's hands because that, this arrow has a brain. And it can go wherever it wants to go, but yeah, a wind can come along and knock it off course, or it can hit a low hanging branch or whatever. Different things can happen in that arrow along the way, but it's not, There's nothing you can do about it. Darryl Rodger: You, it's up to that arrow and God at that point. And you just have to say I did my best, I did my part right? And now the rest is up to them. And it's that, trying to hang on is what causes so many problems for families. B Reeves: That's a great analogy. And just that whole, we're in the footwork business, not the results business and just, letting go and letting God Love that. B Reeves: Anybody got any final thoughts? Sam Davis: Oh shit. I had a ton of them until you Darryl Rodger: asked me. B Reeves: This is awesome. Y'all are great guests. Darryl Rodger: It's great to be here. I appreciate you [00:39:00] inviting us in. Yeah. Thank you. It's pretty B Reeves: fancy, Sam Davis: Yeah. I thought I was sitting, what's that show? Between two B Reeves: fires? Between Two fires? You thought I was just gonna insult you. The, it looks like the set come back for the nine 30 show. B Reeves: It gets a little blue. Ooh. Alright, we will, like I said, we will put all your pertinent information and post all your links and email and contact information. But anyway, just thank y'all both so much. This was awesome. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you for coming Sam Davis: down. Thanks for being on this with me too, man. Sam Davis: Thank you. Darryl Rodger: I appreciate you. I appreciate you guys inviting me in. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Show Notes In this insightful podcast episode, Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers delve into the intricate complexities of addiction recovery, focusing on key themes of surrender and desperation. Drawing from their rich experiences as an interventionist and a family recovery coach respectively, they offer a trove of advice and wisdom to help individuals in their pursuit of recovery, encouraging them to discard old ideologies and habits for a path to wellness. Throughout their dialogue, they stress the pivotal role of acknowledging the need for assistance, urging listeners to seek support throughout their recovery journey. They further unpack the integral functions of interventionists and family recovery coaches in navigating families through the recovery process, establishing boundaries, and formulating strategies for effective interventions. Their conversation also shines a spotlight on the myriad challenges encountered during addiction treatment, encompassing the potency of substances like marijuana and alcohol, as well as issues surrounding treatment accessibility and stigma. The duo explores the critical role that self-awareness, support, and accountability play in the family recovery process. To further illuminate these aspects, they recount personal narratives, underscoring the necessity for families to retain a sense of humor and flexibility during the recovery journey. They broach the topic of parents transitioning from caretakers to guides, emphasizing the significance of relinquishing control and having faith in the recovery efforts. In essence, this podcast serves as a comprehensive guide for individuals and families who are maneuvering through the intricate labyrinth of addiction recovery. By tuning in, listeners can glean a profound understanding of the crucial role of surrender, support, and self-awareness in the recovery process, while also getting an overview of the potential obstacles and opportunities they may encounter along the way. Sam Davis Links: ⁠https://interventiononcall.com/⁠(https://interventiononcall.com/) ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@samdavisinterventions/⁠(https://www.tiktok.com/@samdavisinterventions/) ⁠https://www.instagram.com/interventiononcall/⁠(https://www.instagram.com/interventiononcall/) ⁠https://www.facebook.com/InterventionOnCall⁠(https://www.facebook.com/InterventionOnCall) Darryl Rodgers Links: ⁠https://www.thefamilyrecoverycoach.com/⁠(https://www.thefamilyrecoverycoach.com/) ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilyrecoverycoach⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilyrecoverycoach) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠ (https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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