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Finding New Waters is a podcast exploring addiction complexities. Personal stories and expert interviews offer understanding of challenges and hope for recovery. It's a safe space to comprehend addiction's impact on individuals, families, and the community. Watch & Listen Subscribe A Podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of addiction, recovery, detox and the journey to a healthier lifestyle. New Episodes Every Week | Subscribe Today Finding New Waters Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video Play Video New Episode | Start Watching Sam Quinones: The Stories Behind America’s Drug Epidemic Sam Quinones Subscribe Finding New Waters is a podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of addiction, recovery and the journey to a healthier lifestyle. Through interviews with experts, personal stories, and resources, we aim to provide an understanding of the challenges faced by those struggling with addiction and inspire hope for those in recovery. Our podcast is a safe space for people to gain a greater understanding of addiction and its effects on individuals, families, and the community. + More Info

In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. < Back to Episodes A Lifetime of Service: Gary Fisher’s Journey from Addiction to Leadership 49:16 min | Gary Fisher | Finding New Waters In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Gary Fisher, Director Emeritus at Cirque Lodge and a revered leader in the recovery field. Gary shares his journey from struggling with addiction to becoming an icon in the treatment community. With 38 years of sobriety, Gary offers profound insights into the power of 12-step recovery, the importance of grace and service, and the transformative lessons he’s learned over decades of helping others heal. This episode is a testament to the miracles of recovery, the beauty of community, and the lifelong impact of faith and selflessness. Subscribe “Faith over fear is what keeps us grounded. Start each day with structure, service, and trust in the process—it’s the foundation of recovery.” – Gary Fisher Show Notes In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Gary Fisher, Director Emeritus at Cirque Lodge and a revered leader in the recovery field. Gary shares his journey from struggling with addiction to becoming an icon in the treatment community. With 38 years of sobriety, Gary offers profound insights into the power of 12-step recovery, the importance of grace and service, and the transformative lessons he’s learned over decades of helping others heal. This episode is a testament to the miracles of recovery, the beauty of community, and the lifelong impact of faith and selflessness. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming Gary Fisher and diving into his incredible career at Cirque Lodge. - **[03:00] Gary’s Recovery Journey**: From early struggles with addiction to finding sobriety through the 12 steps. - **[09:00] The Importance of Connection**: Building community and breaking isolation in recovery. - **[15:00] Lessons from Cirque Lodge**: The values and practices that shaped one of the world’s most respected treatment centers. - **[20:00] Grace and Service**: Why helping others is the cornerstone of sustained recovery. - **[27:00] The Miracle of Sobriety**: How recovery can transform lives, families, and careers. - **[34:00] Faith Over Fear**: Gary’s story about making his bed and the profound life lessons it taught him. - **[43:00] Closing Reflections**: Gary’s advice for anyone seeking hope and healing. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Faith and Grace in Recovery**: How faith, humility, and simple daily actions can bring lasting sobriety. 2. **Service as a Pillar of Sobriety**: The importance of helping others and being part of a recovery community. 3. **Transforming the Industry**: Gary’s leadership at Cirque Lodge and his focus on staff well-being as a foundation for client care. 4. **Overcoming Fear and Chaos**: Practical steps for building structure and finding peace in recovery. 5. **Miracles in Recovery**: Stories of lives transformed through the 12 steps and dedication to healing. --- ### Guest Bio: **Gary Fisher** **Director Emeritus, Cirque Lodge** Gary Fisher has dedicated over 30 years to the behavioral health field, shaping the landscape of addiction recovery with his passion, leadership, and vision. As Executive Director of Cirque Lodge for most of its existence, Gary developed one of the world’s most respected treatment programs. Now serving as Director Emeritus, he continues to inspire others through his involvement in the 12-step community, his advocacy for collaboration in the treatment field, and his commitment to carrying the message of hope to those still suffering. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Cirque Lodge Website:** https://www.cirquelodge.com(https://www.cirquelodge.com/) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) - **Al-Anon Family Groups:** https://al-anon.org(https://al-anon.org/) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook:** https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn:** https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok:** https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) - **Spotify:** https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) - **Apple Podcast:** https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music:** https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes The Journey from Addiction to Recovery: A Candid Talk with Lewis Finch 47:50 min | Lewis Finch | Finding New Waters Dive into a deep and inspiring conversation with Lewis Finch, founder of Welwynn Outpatient Center, as he shares his journey from personal battles with addiction to becoming a pioneer in professional addiction recovery services. Learn about how Welwynn offers highly individualized and confidential treatment programs catered specifically for executives and professionals. This episode is a beacon of hope for those grappling with addiction and offers insights into the unique needs and challenges of high-performing individuals in recovery. Subscribe "So, what we've done is we've created a bubble for folks to come in and feel safe and not judged. And when you've got a little community of people together, that healing process just accelerates. That's what's different about us at Welwynn." - Lewis Finch Podcast Transcript #18 Lewis Finch [00:00:00] Lewis Finch: If there's a crisis, and we, to some degree, that kind of came from my willing way days because we would go above and beyond. Which I, again, I that's a point of difference from a lot, from us. So most other iops, most I believe, are either run by or controlled by clinicians. Lewis Finch: Sure. Okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But they think like clinicians, so there's a, you guys have a protocol you have to follow, there are things that you can't do, that I can do as an interventionist, as an example. True. So we pull out all the stops if we think it's, if it's needed. Lewis Finch: And that's everybody at, Wind has done that. We've gone to people's homes when we've gotten phone calls that they're in trouble and helped them go. Get into the hospital to detox for treatment.[00:01:00] Justin Mclendon: All right. So today on the Finding New Waters podcast we have Louis Finch with us today as a guest, and Louis Finch is the founder of Well Win Outpatient Center here in Raleigh, North Carolina. You are correct, sir. And and we're pleased to have you with us. We appreciate you taking some time outta your day. Justin Mclendon: Thank you. Lewis Finch: Absolutely. My days are pretty empty these days. Are they? Semi-retired. Justin Mclendon: That's cool. I'm glad to hear that. I did not know that. Yeah, I know a time very, not very long ago where your days were not very empty for sure. No, they were not. But Lewis Finch: yeah, it's nice to get old hey, and do what I'm doing now, but yeah, that's cool. Lewis Finch: Yeah, man, that's Justin Mclendon: cool. So Lewis, would you mind maybe we could start by just telling the audience, a little bit about you and well, when and how things started and all that good stuff. Lewis Finch: Okay. I am 67 years old. I got sober at 51, so you can do the math on that. Sure. And it was a [00:02:00] pretty rocky ride. Lewis Finch: I, I started drinking and doing other things at the age of 13. And so I had about a 38 year drinking and drugging career. But during that time span, I was also a fairly successful businessman. I founded an advertising agency that One time was a fairly large player in the market here in Raleigh primarily because of our largest account, little sandwich chain called Subway. Lewis Finch: But during that time period my addiction ramped up pretty quickly. When I got sober I ended up going to a small treatment center down in Georgia, Willingway. Which some of you may know. And coming out and after I got sober in order the very next year my father died. The year after that my wife died, and the year after that my mother died. Lewis Finch: Now I'm sober. I, but I am batshit crazy. Okay. I'm, it's, I'm out, I'm outta my mind. So I ended [00:03:00] up selling the agency and I. Literally spreading all the stuff that I had, my, our, we, I sold our homes. I sold our, I gave our furniture away to my daughter's. And I moved up to a lake about an hour north of here and a buddy's double-wide mobile home. Lewis Finch: Wow. And just tried to repair myself. What I realized was, and that was my first retirement. What I realized was, I don't do very well at retirement I say I'm semi, I'll be semi-retired till I'll drop dead. But when I was up there, it allowed me to focus on a lot of things one of which was my recovery. Lewis Finch: And I ended up going back to work for the same treatment center that I went to willing way. Okay. As the admissions and marketing director. I learned the business of addiction treatment from the ground up. So everybody who came in there I met their families. I got to work really at a very very base level. Lewis Finch: I gotta work. So we [00:04:00] we had virtually no advertising budget. It was it was a kind of a joke. So I was able to convince them the people owned at the time to let me contact the folks at the intervention TV show the a and e put on. Okay. So we, during that time period, we got We had three, three of their clients that came through us and we got na. Lewis Finch: We actually, we had not only got national exposure there, we also got it on Dr. Phil. Oh, wow. Okay. But, and where I'm going with this is I learned the business of interventions too. That's what introduced me to it. About a year into my stay with them, it was apparent they were gonna be sold. So I came back to Raleigh and I had this idea, I had for a, a, a. Lewis Finch: Outpatient treatment center. I really didn't under, I'll be honest with you, I didn't really understand it. All I knew was that when I went to treatment at 51, I was in there with 18 and 20 year old meth and heroin addicts. Other than the fact that we're [00:05:00] suffering from the same disease, I didn't have a whole lot of life experience that they had. Lewis Finch: Most of these people didn't, hadn't even had jobs. So I thought to myself, what if you could build something? That would appeal primarily to executives, professionals, and their families. That's what win. Is it serves a niche population of people who I now know. If there if we weren't there, a good chunk of them wouldn't get help or they would come outta their experience. Lewis Finch: Criticizing what they'd gone through in all cases, cuz they wouldn't be with their peers. So ours is a peer to peer. You guys know this. It's there are treatment centers that cater to emerging adults. Men, women. So it's really no different than that. Lewis Finch: It's just we took a demographic that I felt like was underserved and we applied. Certain things, so certain things to it it's really nice. Lot like new orders, right? It's one of the reasons we refer here. Sure. Our folks are great fits for you guys. And we treat people like adults. Lewis Finch: It's, it really does boil down to [00:06:00] that. We're very holistic in nature. And we've been, we opened in May of 2016, so we're, we've been open. Over seven years. So Radio seven. That's awesome. Seventh anniversary. Yeah, it really is. And we've done, we've, I think we've done some really good things. Lewis Finch: I'm I'm pleased from that standpoint. So that's great. B Reeves: Cool. What are you gonna do now with your Lewis Finch: semi-retirement? Just keep yourself busy. I'm getting back to the intervention thing. So when we first opened up, We were having people come to us who typically would be our clients, like older adults, people my age even who had children who needed help, they didn't know where to go. Lewis Finch: This is, and this is strictly my opinion, they came to us because they felt comfortable because of, because we were, we appealed to an older group. And. As a result we were referring to interventionists [00:07:00] and I was getting blow back from a number of people I referred to. They either weren't doing the job or they weren't doing the job that the client expected 'em to do. Lewis Finch: So I said you know what, if I'm gonna get the criticism, I'm gonna build into my business model. Several of us went off and got trained. I. How to do interventions. Now, again, if you remember, I told you I, I had some help in that. Cause I'm the interventionists on the show intervention really helped me. Lewis Finch: And just simple conversations with them and watching how they dealt with it. So that, to, to answer your question I, Justin, I couldn't do what you do. I've said this, I sitting across from somebody and listening to their them whine and complain all day long. It's not my idea of fun. Lewis Finch: I can take short bursts of that. That's what I like about that process because it usually is a, I don't know, the most, a one month process. In most cases it's a week. In some cases it's a day. So that's, and that's, so we've over the last, [00:08:00] I don't know, seven we, yes, we did do 'em seven years ago. Lewis Finch: We didn't do as many. We've probably done 150, 200 interventions. Okay. Wow. And it, there, up to this point, everybody we've intervened on has gotten help. That's great. But it's because we use tactics and because I. The client in our case, is the person who's coming to us for help. Lewis Finch: It's not the person of concern the, at the at or alcoholic. If we can get the parent or the spouse moving in a certain direction, usually that will trigger the person personal concern. To go, to get, go, get help and and, do what they need to do. And then we also we case manage folks but I moved to a lake about an hour away from here. Lewis Finch: And I spend a good chunk of my time with my grandchildren and my daughters. That's great, man. Yeah. So that's great. But I still come in Justin Mclendon: still staying active. I think I know you, I've known you for a while now anyway. Yeah. And I feel like I [00:09:00] know you well enough to where I can't imagine you would ever be able to completely pull away from it, i, and Lewis Finch: I learned that when I retired that first time. Yeah. It was, I was, to say I was miserable is an understatement. Sure. I just, I've gotta, I've gotta keep moving. Yeah. And I, I've heard that I think some, to some statistic that if you, once you retire, you're dead within two years or something that some I can see that cuz with, without that purpose in life There's really no motivation. Yeah, absolutely. And this, the work we do guys is a whole lot different than, in my past advertising career if I made a mistake, the worst thing that would happen in a commercial would run wrong. Lewis Finch: Sure. In this particular case, people die. That's the truth. And lives are ruined. Yeah. This is really important stuff we're doing. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. And I think you mentioned purpose, and I think that's true for the clients that we serve, right? Is that, really at the essence of it all. Justin Mclendon: I think that's what we're trying to do in this industry as a whole, is trying to tell, help people find that purpose again, essentially. B Reeves: Correct. Yeah, Lewis Finch: absolutely. Yep. It's not always, it's not [00:10:00] always evident either. Speaking of B Reeves: purpose of, I was I was, I had been sober about five months. B Reeves: I got sober, went back to my job, and then resigned. And then all I did was play golf and go to AA meetings for five or six months. I had lunch with my stepfather one day and he said, so what's going on with the work? And I, I said I've been doing this and doing that, and, I'm sober and gonna all these meetings. B Reeves: And he said I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. It may have been the same day. I actually made an amends to him. And we were having lunch and he said, but what? You need a purpose. And I I was sitting there just tooting my own horn for being sober for five whole months. And then, I look back on that time and it was really dangerous to have that much time off newly sober or any, or anytime. B Reeves: And I know what you mean. I, when I'm, I used to be a loaf and now if I'm not doing something, I feel almost guilty about it. Sure. I have to be almost. Told by my friends in recovery to take some time and just hang out because I I need a purpose and I have an [00:11:00] amazing purpose now. B Reeves: It's not just a job, cause I did have a job for a couple years in sobriety before I started working in this field. And like you said, yes, sitting in the wrong invoice to somebody three or four years ago for me, would be the worst thing that happened. But now it's Somebody is not getting help and that can lead to death or worse. B Reeves: And I talk to family sometimes, when I'm talking about what could happen, I say, he or she can end up dead or worse. And they say, what can be worse? And I say, they hurt or kill somebody and they stay alive, and yeah, it is, we are Lewis Finch: doing important work. Lewis Finch: It's funny you should bring us up real early when we opened up, we had a situation where a mother called in and her son who was going to East Carolina. Had come home the weekend, the day before and had they had found white powder, which turned out to be heroin. And she was asking what we should, we what for our, again, the intervention kind of thing. Lewis Finch: Question. She wouldn't have been a fit for us cuz it was a college kid, but she wanted to know what to do. And I, and we said, [00:12:00] you need to get him treatment now. Yeah. It was the end of the semester. And he had to take exams. This was on a Monday. He had an exam on Thursday and one on Friday. Lewis Finch: And she said, oh, we'll get him in here. He, and he also, he was gonna, he was gonna graduate on Saturday. Okay. So Thursday, Friday, Saturday he died Friday night. Ugh. And it, what that taught me, because you can soft pedal this, if you, I mean you can, yeah. You can soft. I don't soft pedaling anymore. Lewis Finch: Yeah. I've seen if you've been in this business long enough, you've seen the problems that come with this and it, so that family has changed now forever. It'll never be that they'll never have grandchildren from him. They'll always, they'll be a always a hole somewhere in that family. Lewis Finch: Yeah. And I don't, I when I talk to particularly parents of kids and I've got six grandchildren I'm thinking of them the whole time, cuz I know how I would do, if I found [00:13:00] anything and my grandkids know my story. And you I just I don't soft pedal anymore. You can't. It's too, it means too much. Lewis Finch: Yeah. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: And that's a horrible story. But I think the reality is that we do, we hear those kinds of stories all the time. It's unfortunate, and I think a message to get across to people is exactly that. And I know we have these kinds of conversations I know you do all the time. Justin Mclendon: Is that when you're on the phone with someone or you're seeking help, if it's gotten to a point to where there is an issue and someone is trying to address it, right? To your point, Lewis, I think the time to take action is then, right? Not tomorrow, not a week later. And especially, at New Waters, Primarily what we do is detox and stabilization. Justin Mclendon: So it's always interesting, even though we see it over and over again. It's very interesting how we're on the phone with someone on the kind of pre-admission side of things, and they're trying to kinda, quote unquote schedule their, they're negotiating Lewis Finch: with you, they're negotiating. Justin Mclendon: Negotiating. It really is. It's right because, yeah, absolutely. Lewis Finch: So it's and you know this, no one comes on in here on a winning streak, correct? No, [00:14:00] absolutely. Something has happened. Things are not good. Usually several things have happened. It's usually one final event that somebody's in their history. Lewis Finch: Yeah. Or it could be the legal system. It could be parent or spouse. Or their employer. Yeah. But you, I jokingly say no one walks through our front door with a smile on their face. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You're exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So people will try to, they're trying to schedule their admission. Justin Mclendon: And we get it right. We get it. Life's going on. There's things that are happening. Kids gotta go to things like all the excuses and all the reasons, real reasons. However, that story is a good representation Lewis Finch: of so is, again, let's know the story here we had a woman, I would say 45 ish or so who kept calling and talking to us about coming in, but she could not she couldn't work it around her work. Lewis Finch: She could not, we have three groups that may, she couldn't get it to work around her schedule, but she kept calling and her situation kept getting worse and worse. Every call she made when the last time she called, We scheduled for her to [00:15:00] come in and she was planning on coming to the program the very next day. Lewis Finch: Her children were taken away from her. And she didn't, she never came in. Because it was over with. Yeah. And that's, we, I, the other thing, I was telling somebody this the other day, you, you've, if you remember before Covid more people. Were dying from alcohol related abuse, alcohol related abuse, alcohol abuse then we're from drugs. Lewis Finch: Overdoses. Yeah. Look, you look it up. I think it's I think the number is like 70,000 people of al from alcohol and maybe 55. But the number was growing, right? The real, the problem now is it's so dire. It's one thing to drink yourself a death. Another thing to, to Snort what you think is Coke, or, shoot up what you think is heroin. And it turns out to be fentanyl. Yeah. And any, you're done. You're toast. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. And we see that, I'm sure you guys do too. Oh, yeah. But on a, sometimes daily basis individuals that were, yeah, they thought they were snorting [00:16:00] cocaine or they thought they were taking, Pills that they were getting from a friend. Justin Mclendon: And just the whole spectrum of individuals and walks of life that come in here. And it's not until they're here and we're doing a drug test and finding out what's going on that, that they are very amazed that they have fentanyl on their system. Oh yeah. And it happens all the time. And then of course, there's a portion of individuals that they're very aware that's what's going on. Justin Mclendon: But it happens all the time. It's a, a, a. A stay-at-home mom, or just literally anybody, right? And they come in and they're like I'm just doing X, Y, and Z. And then they're very taken aback and we're like you have fentanyl in your system. And that really changes the trajectory of the Lewis Finch: detox, right? Lewis Finch: And luckily the media is playing it up. Yeah. Absolutely. They are. But at the same time the alcohol related stuff, we, so we've had five people who were in our program that once they. Discharged died. Five Four of 'em for alcohol. One for drugs. Which doesn't match the narrative that you hear in the media. Lewis Finch: True. But that's, but again, it takes you a while to, to [00:17:00] drink yourself a death. You can die from a heroin overdose or a fentanyl overdose the second you do it. Yeah. As yeah. And then talk about the, when Coronavirus hit, none of us were prepared for that. I know you guys have seen this, but there's been a a uptick in mental health issues as well. Lewis Finch: Absolutely. And you had, you had people having wine parties at home by themselves and so last fall, we applied for our mental health license and so we're now a duly licensed addiction and mental health treatment program. That's great. On an outpatient basis. Yeah we can We can treat practically anybody who comes in the door, mean to some degree, where it's still outpatient, so let's talk Justin Mclendon: about that a little bit, because I know, just for anybody that's watching or listening to this more specifically like the levels of care and like what you guys do. So it is outpatient, so there's no kind of residential component to it Lewis Finch: whatsoever? Lewis Finch: No. Yeah, no it's, it is, the term is in iop. And it basically, Boils down to your attending group sessions and some [00:18:00] individual sessions. And over the course of a week, you might get 10 hours or more of therapy. Okay. As opposed to, say when you go to residential treatment you would be you'd be there 24 hours a day and be monitored. Lewis Finch: Or like you guys, you'd be here, observed heavily for seven to 10 days. But yeah. And that and. Out. So there, there are different levels of it, obviously. There's php, partial hospitalization. You guys know it's a more intense, it's like I refer to it as residential treatment in your own bed, cuz you, I don't think you can work. Lewis Finch: I guess you could, it'd be difficult. But yeah, we're a and the reason that when I chose the business model, I did, the reason I chose i o P, there's a study online. That some government agency did. I've got a copy of it. I just don't but it was done about comparing residential treatment to intensive outpatient is what we are, and it showed the results were about the same, which I found [00:19:00] fascinating. Lewis Finch: Why would you go away? The answer is very simple. You need to be, you, you brought up, you need to be stabilized. Most, you can't be coming into our groups. Doing your drug of choice, it doesn't work very well. Yeah. That's, we done, that people try it all the time. Lewis Finch: But intensive outpatient is to me, is unique because it allows you to come in on Monday, get some help, leave and go home, interact with your family and friends, sleep at home. Think about what you've learned. Spend another day in the real world then come in for treatment the next day and process it. Lewis Finch: Yeah. Which, and it's in its real world. It's not a bubble. It's damn near impossible to relapse when you're in residential treatment program. You gotta really work at it. Yeah, absolutely. You can relapse all the time in intensive outpatient, but it's the work that you do. To get someone away from that mindset that really, to me, separates people [00:20:00] that separates residential treatment from intensive outpatient. Lewis Finch: What B Reeves: percentage of your clients at Wind come from residential treatment versus their stable to come in? Object question. Lewis Finch: Or they come from a place like New Waters? And you guys are in that same boat. You guys refer to us. That's correct. I wanna say, B Reeves: but residential, like a 28 to 30 day program versus just Lewis Finch: detox or, yeah. Lewis Finch: Or didn't need Okay. Maybe 25% coming from treatment centers. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Or they've, they may not be referred from the treatment center, but that's not true. They that think it's about 25% and then remember the, as I brought up to the beginning, no one wants to go to treatment. Lewis Finch: So they'll do anything they can to get, okay. So that's, so it'd probably be a lot higher if they recognize what they were doing. Cuz if you're, and Justin, you, I know you, you've done screenings all the time and assessments. If you do the assessment you should know from the assessment if the person's a fit for intensive outpatient Absolutely. Lewis Finch: Yeah. Versus PHP or residential. We don't keep people [00:21:00] just because they want to come to us. Now, if they are too acute we might give them some parameters around which they they can't, they gotta test negative for whatever substance is and they. We can put together a plan for them, but it doesn't behoove us to bring somebody in. Lewis Finch: It's been disruptive. You ran used to run groups for us. That's exactly right. Actually, you did. It's very disruptive to have somebody in there, right? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Another one, the habits here, but they're already here, right? Yeah. Justin Mclendon: I, one thing I'll comment on just. As you mentioned, previous history. Justin Mclendon: Full disclosure, I actually did used to work for Lewis. Back in 2017. No, I worked for you. Some combination of that. So one thing I think just to sing the praises of, win a little bit here that I think you guys do different than a lot of other iops. Your typical kind of standard IOP setup is that you guys are really typically willing to. Justin Mclendon: Really pull out all the stops and meet the client where they are. So even though it is I intensive outpatient i o P, which is like you [00:22:00] said, about 10 hours a week, I know for firsthand experience, if a client meets that criteria for that outpatient level of care, but they really need more, support than just 10 hours a week. Justin Mclendon: I've seen you guys, just time and time again, be able to just create something that's gonna work for them, which is Lewis Finch: really cool. And it is cool. I didn't know everybody didn't do that when we first opened up. Sure. I didn't, I thought that was just part of the gig. Yeah. Yeah. Lewis Finch: If there's a crisis, and we, to some degree, that kind of came from my Willingway days because we would go above and beyond. Which I, again, I that's a point of difference from a lot from us. So most other iops most I believe, are either run by or controlled by clinicians. Lewis Finch: Sure. Okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But they think like clinicians, so there's a, you guys have a protocol you have to follow, right? They're things that you can't do that I can do as an interventionist, as an example. True. Yeah. So we pull out all the stops if we think it's. Lewis Finch: If it's needed. And [00:23:00] that's everybody at, Wind has done that. We've gone to people's homes when we've gotten phone calls that they're in trouble and helped them go get into the hospital to detox or to treatment. I You've brought 'em directly here. From there I've gone directly view Exactly. Lewis Finch: Yep. Yeah. And B Reeves: right now we have a former client who they're customized a treatment plan where they go see her at her house. Yep. And. Do. Do what needs to be Justin Mclendon: done. Yeah. Which is great. Yeah. I think that's just great because the reality is there is this kind of gray area I think that exists in between like residential treatment. Justin Mclendon: Like you said, which you know, I think is absolutely appropriate in certain cases. But there's just a big difference in between that 24 hour supervision and support that's offered at the residential level and an IO at an outpatient level, regardless, even if that is a partial hospitalization where they're doing 20, 25 hours a week. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, there's still gaps there, right? They, if they're early enough in their recovery process, they're still gonna be struggling with cravings and just emotional dysregulation and things like that. And there's just, there's nothing really in between those two levels of care.[00:24:00] And again, I think that's something that's really unique about when is the fact that you guys can just pull in other services, be able to, go into the home, whether that's a sober coach that can be there, that you guys can employ to work with you guys. Just checking in on them, having 'em come into the office. And do I remember, back when I was with when we'd have people, I'm sure you guys probably still do this they worked from home and like it just didn't make sense for them to be in the house working alone. Justin Mclendon: So they would just bring in their computers Lewis Finch: and put 'em on office. Yeah. I forgot. I forget about that. But we have, we've had several people. We had one young lady who studied for and got her master's degree. On our couch. That's great. But that's, but to your point, yeah. She couldn't stay home. She was gonna, she was gonna do something that she shouldn't do at home. Lewis Finch: So we just said, come in eat our snacks. We order lunch. When it's time for lunch, sit down and enjoy the couch. And she did. And it's, and she's, to my knowledge, she's still sober. That's awesome, man. That is awesome. But that's, again, it goes back to that, I, that's probably. Lewis Finch: There's probably some problem with that in the, in your field. Okay. It's [00:25:00] not in mine. Yeah, I hear you. Justin Mclendon: Okay, I hear you. Yeah, and that's great, man. I think it's great because, again, I think. We have to be able to meet clients where they are, right? And everybody's needs are unique and different. Justin Mclendon: And I think that's something that's very concierge about, about when is the fact that you guys are willing to, work with them and identify what those needs are and just get creative about, how can you help 'em, right? Lewis Finch: And I was thinking about this the other day. Lewis Finch: When someone comes in, when someone calls in, we set up two screenings. Excuse me, three screenings. One is a the typical screening that a therapist would do. The second one is a cultural screening. And it may sound bougie to, but it's meant to protect them and us. Lewis Finch: Sure. Because if they're not a fit culturally for us we have to figure out where we wanna refer them to. Yeah. As an example We had a father no, actually that's not true. You're guest in your last show trip. Okay. Trip [00:26:00] Johnson called me up one day and said, I've got a 20 year old college student. Lewis Finch: I think it would be a good fit for you. And Trip knows who we see. And he go, I said, he, I said, trip, that didn't sound like somebody that we could take in. He said, just talk to him. This kid was much more mature than I am at 20. He was the president of the American Marketing Association at NC State. Lewis Finch: The campus version. He was in MBA school, I think at 20. Oh wow. He just couldn't stop drinking. And so we talked to his parents, we talked to him and we, I interviewed him and at least one other person interviewed him and. He really wanted to come in. So we said we'll give it a shot. Lewis Finch: It, he went, he didn't, he did everything he was asked to do, and he felt more at home because now, not this anything wrong at all with Green Hill, they address a population I wouldn't touch. Because they're but he wasn't gonna fit in with that group. Does that make sense? Lewis Finch: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I remember I've heard you tell me that I've heard that story before you and it We, and then in addition to [00:27:00] the, those two, the other two screening, we'd also do a financial screening. Oh wow. Okay. And it, that's not to convince them to come into our program. They're either gonna do it or they're not. But it's to figure out if they can't come into our program, what's the best ne next option? I think that's smart. I think, I wanna say 90% of the people who contact us and come in are referred somewhere else. Either to you guys for detox or to a residential treatment program for, again, stabilization. Lewis Finch: Yeah. Or to another iop. Okay. Yeah. B Reeves: That's great. Yeah. I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of the calls we get referred to somebody for whatever reason, whether it's wrong level of care insurance resources, Lewis Finch: whatever it is. But you know that you're gonna refer 'em to the best place. Lewis Finch: Exactly, yes. They would never Justin Mclendon: know where to go. Exactly. And I think that's, one of the marks of a quality treatment center right? Is that, you're not you're not an establishment that's gonna just try and make it work, whatever it is, right? Is that you really [00:28:00] understand you know what you do well, and if that person's not gonna be a good fitter, you're not gonna be able to provide the services that are gonna meet their needs, then that is our job. Justin Mclendon: Right? It's our role to find them the place that can provide that, B Reeves: and when, like new waters are independent and not affiliated or owned by anybody else, so we're only gonna send them Correct. To what makes sense. And there's no exactly, no expectations for the mothership to get 'em somewhere else or anything like that. Lewis Finch: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And they look when anyone comes to either us or you guys, They have no clue. They're cl they don't, they've been told lot of stuff. They'll Google everything. And everybody's website looks great. Except mine, by the way. Okay. But everybody's website looks awesome. Lewis Finch: But they're, you, we know the good programs from the bad ones. Because we intentionally get to know that was the other thing. I forgot to mention this. So we, as a result of when we first got into the business. There was virtually no collaboration going on. None. You had two camps. Lewis Finch: You had the unc healthcare camp, you had the Duke [00:29:00] Hospital Camp, and they weren't talking to each other either. And they weren't referring hardly to anybody, so we started having a we started a networking event, right? We do it once a month. It's done the third Thursday of every month. Lewis Finch: And it, we'll see anywhere between. 35 and 95 people therapist other treatment providers in the market or even outside of the market, will come to it, and it's created this dynamic where it really opens up. The well you had you had trip on last week. You had the week before. Didn't you have I saw her, the therapist. Which one? There's been a lot of, we have a lot. That's kinda anyway but that's the way we get to know these people. Absolutely. Otherwise we wouldn't. That's true. So that to me is probably just as important as getting them into treatment, getting 'em to the right place. Lewis Finch: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, I'm gonna toot y'all's horn. Graham came, I met Graham, When I first got into the business, [00:30:00] I was, went to Moments of Change down in west Palm. And I think his, when he was he was the business development person for Voyage communication. Lewis Finch: Voyage. Voyage, yeah. Voyage Communication, voyage. Treatment Center. Voyage Recovery. Recovery. And I ran into, and then he took me over to the facility and showed it to me and. And I really didn't even understand what I was looking at back then. I was, seven years ago. But he stuck with me and he he, I learned cuz that was one of the first people that ever paid any attention to me at all. Lewis Finch: Okay. I'm just, I'm this guy from North Carolina who has this i o P that just opened up and, so what, over time, over the years he and I stayed in touch with one another. Wasn't anything. I don't even think I referred to him until until he left. Okay. Down to voyage. But about two and a half or three years ago, he called me up and he said he was coming into town and he presented this idea to me of a detox. Lewis Finch: Addiction. I that's another reason I don't, I'm not a therapist. I hire people with a lot more common sense than I do and it's a more structured process. Yeah. Because evidently those people are a lot more fragile. And things can trigger them a whole lot quicker, I've been told. Lewis Finch: The IOP process is very, the IOP mental health process is more structured. It has a curriculum that you really don't waiver from in, in iop, typical [00:33:00] iop you'll go, the therapist will come in with a plan, but the plan can blow up if someone comes in the group and reports that they're having a problem, right? Lewis Finch: You've seen it, right? Absolutely. Okay. I don't know. I don't necessarily think that happens that much. And when the mental health side now it, if someone comes in obviously distressed, then I'm sure they're gonna address it, but. It's just more structured process. The other thing I was gonna say too, we, one of the things I'm most proud of with us I did a I looked at, I looked back at our our clientele two years ago and last year. Lewis Finch: This year, the average stay at our, at us. And this includes somebody who would come in and stay for a day and leave. Or it could be a guy who's been there and he's gone through i o p, he's in continuing care and or he's doing individual counseling. The average stay for a person in that census was 120 days. Lewis Finch: A hundred twenty two days. Wow. That's great. And you and I know that. [00:34:00] The key to recovery is length of time and consistency. Absolutely. You have a better chance the longer you're there. Even residential treatment programs, you're better off keeping 'em 90 days if you can, than 30 days. Lewis Finch: So I think we do a really good job in that regard of making a place they want to stay. Cause they don't have to stay with us. There, there are plenty of other places in town to, to get help. Sure. But, I that, that's one thing I've always been proud of. That number to me. Lewis Finch: And I, I didn't realize that, was that unique. Justin Mclendon: So a question for you around that. What do you think it is, and I know we're talking a lot about the things that make well wind different, but what do you think is the thing, if you had to put your finger on something Yeah, I knew you were gonna ask me that. Justin Mclendon: What's the thing that makes them wanna Lewis Finch: stay? I don't know. I've been we, again, we have a mindset. We have a mindset there, and you can't last if you don't match our culture. You're not gonna wait, you're not gonna last very long. You're not, we have people come and go, but they're coming and going for most of the time, all the right reasons. Lewis Finch: Like they're going, they're moving their [00:35:00] careers on. You're a good example, right? Sure. But the people who come in have the mindset of being I'm trying to think of the Servant's hearts. That's, I think that's the key to what we do. That regardless of whether that person who calls in and we have people who call in all the time, who absolutely you can tell on the phone, they're not gonna be a client of ours. Lewis Finch: Okay. For whatever reason, we don't just kick 'em off the phone. We will, we'll, everybody's asked to come in. Everybody is screened and then we provide them with an alternative. If we're not it. And I, to that point, I don't, I think that's the difference. Okay. And we don't always get it right, but Sure. Lewis Finch: What we bend over backwards to so that we can rest at night. Absolutely. B Reeves: Absolutely. 100%. I was, I would've said the answer to that would be the same way that New Waters is very nice facility. One's a very nice facility, very welcoming. But all that's material.[00:36:00] B Reeves: It's all about, it's all about the people and the people in there doing the next right thing. And I feel love in there when I go in there and everybody seems to be very happy in there. And that, Lewis Finch: It's, we have a, and I don't, I honestly don't, I can't take credit for it. Lewis Finch: I, I can, I am no longer at the top of the food chain Will guest is, he's our new ceo. Been there way since the first of the year. And I'd been looking for somebody for I, an old man. Okay. I had hair when I started this. No, I didn't. No, I'm lying now. So I was, but and this is another ironic, I just thought about this. Lewis Finch: So Will is exactly 25 years younger than me. Oh, wow. And I've been looking for a successor, someone to take, literally he was born the same day I was born. Really? How about that? January the third? How about that? Only 25 years before. But he carries that on. He's probably, if I would, he's probably a softer, gentler version of me, I think. Lewis Finch: I don't know. Maybe he hasn't been beaten down by life like I have but he's he fulfills what [00:37:00] I felt like was needed in that position. That's awesome. Is a good pick? I think. I think so. I don't, he just, he plopped in my lap. Yeah. You brought the the nice, the look of the place, right? Lewis Finch: The appearance of the place. It, I did the math on that. It's amazing to me how little difference it was to buy the stuff we bought, to fill the place. We've got antiques there. Some of it was given to us. We've got, but our furniture is nice and comfortable. The cost difference to run to that, to, to build that out. Lewis Finch: Was not a whole lot more, if at all, than if you just did the basic clinical look. And it's just more, it's more, it feels more warm, right? Absolutely. Yeah. We've got two rooms that, that no therapy's done in the two biggest rooms in the entire place. One on the mental health side and one on the addiction side. Lewis Finch: And it's just a place for people to gather. It's where that girl, the young girl, sat. And got her mba. That's great. Or masters, whatever it was. But yeah, that's, but [00:38:00] that's, and that's to the difference, right? Yeah. It's a B Reeves: reflection too of how things go there too. Yes. But it's really all about the people. B Reeves: And the Lewis Finch: ethos that you practice there. And we've had, we've had issues from time to time, but we like any business, right? But, and I tell, I said, look, Don't let the clients see the sausage being made. Just feed 'em the sausage. Okay. Because if you watch the sausage being made, you won't eat it. Lewis Finch: Okay. And it's, and every business is like that. You always, there's always this chaos in the back that you don't want your clients to see. Particularly our clients who are, Going through some life. Tough stuff in life. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Cool. Lewis, we appreciate it. Justin Mclendon: Thank you. We appreciate you coming and chatting with us. You much, man. Very welcome. It's a pleasure. And guys we'll make sure to put like in the show notes, we'll make sure to put some links to. To win and websites I, so if you wanna learn more about, win, we'll put some information there where you can read a little bit more on the website, even though Lewis says it's not a great one. Justin Mclendon: We think it is. I'm, Lewis Finch: again, coming from the advertising [00:39:00] world, I'm very critical of it, it is what it is. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. And we'll also make sure to put contact information as well, because. Another thing I know that wind does is anybody can call you guys and you're willing to bring 'em in and do a screen. Justin Mclendon: Oh yeah. And like you said, whether a good fit for Wellman win, or if they need other services, you guys will help navigate them through that process. Lewis Finch: So getting to that point we get calls for folks needing medication management. Matt. Sure. M a t. And we don't chase 'em away. Lewis Finch: We don't give them a number. We ask 'em to come in so we have a conversation to figure out exactly what it is they need. That's great. And then we will refer them to the proper, to the best next option. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So that's a huge service, hugely needed service. For sure. So again, Louis, thank you. Justin Mclendon: It's always a pleasure hanging out with you man. Lewis Finch: Are you gonna come back to work for me? I'm not gonna answer that. Graham. Graham. I'm sure Graham would not approve of that. You ready? You ready? I'm just Justin Mclendon: All right, Louis. Thanks man. We look forward to talking to you again soon. Lewis Finch: Okay. Thanks guys. Lewis Finch: Thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.[00:40:00] Show Notes In this illuminating episode, we welcome Lewis Finch, a trailblazer in the field of mental health and addiction recovery. With a successful career in advertising and marketing under his belt, Lewis' life took an unexpected turn when he confronted his own battle with alcohol addiction.After a successful recovery, Lewis began to observe a gap in the field of addiction treatment, particularly for professionals who could not afford to leave their work and home life for rehabilitation. He noticed that professionals were more receptive to therapy when interacting with peers facing similar challenges, leading him to establish Welwynn Outpatient Center. Welwynn Outpatient Center is a pioneering institution that provides individualized intensive outpatient treatment exclusively for executives and professionals, ensuring the utmost discretion and privacy in every phase of the treatment process. The center caters to professionals' unique needs, recognizing that the skills that have led them to professional success can also contribute to substance use disorders.In our conversation, Lewis shares the principles behind his practice, the center's emphasis on creating a confidential and upscale outpatient setting, and their commitment to developing a truly personalized treatment plan for each client. This episode is not just for professionals battling addiction or mental health issues, but for anyone seeking a deeper understanding of the unique challenges in treatment and recovery for high-performing individuals. Whether you're a loved one, a professional in the mental health field, or someone in recovery, join us for an inspiring episode about transforming personal adversity into an opportunity to help others. #LewisFinch #WelwynnOutpatientCenter #ExecutiveRecovery #AddictionRecovery #SubstanceUseDisorder #PersonalizedTreatment #ExecutiveAddiction #RecoveryJourney #ProfessionalHealth #MentalHealth #AddictionTreatment #SubstanceAbuse #SuccessfulRecovery #RecoverySuccess #HolisticTreatment #ConfidentialTreatment #OutpatientRehab #Rehabilitation #SubstanceAbuseRecovery #ExecutiveHealth Lewis Finch Links: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/welwynn⁠(https://www.facebook.com/welwynn) ⁠https://welwynn.com/⁠(https://welwynn.com/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/welwynn-outpatient-center/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/company/welwynn-outpatient-center/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewisfinchwelwynn/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewisfinchwelwynn/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, podcast hosts and private practice professionals, discuss addiction and mental health complexities, exploring the sober curious movement and the importance of a health and wellness-focused approach to substance abuse < Back to Episodes Unmasking Imposter Syndrome: Empowering Lawyers to Overcome Self-Doubt with Nicki Ellington 46:51 min | Nicki Ellington | Finding New Waters In this episode, Nikki Ellington, a mental health advocate for lawyers, tackles imposter syndrome and seeking help. We explore its impact on well-being and coping strategies. Nikki shares mindfulness practices for confidence and balance, addressing stigma and benefiting lawyers and loved ones. Discover the unsung heroes supporting lawyers with belonging and addiction issues. Prioritize well-being with confidential support and a safe space for growth." can impact various aspects of life such as sleep, work productivity, and relationships. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "Practicing mindfulness and meditation can be very effective... Just sitting with my thoughts and letting the feelings wash over me and not attach them and practice letting it go, that can be very effective." - Nicki Ellington Podcast Transcript Nicki Ellington: [00:00:00] Um, imposter syndrome and ultimately to me, I, uh, would define it as this experience, this feeling, and these thoughts that despite your, whatever external successes that you've been having, despite whatever achievements that you've accomplished, that you internally feel not good enough, like you don't deserve it, like you're a fraud, that people are gonna find out at some point. Nicki Ellington: And, um, everyone will know that you're a big phony. And this is something that I talk with lawyers about probably on a daily basis. It probably comes up in one capacity or another. In almost every single group that I run in every single assessment individual session, it's so commonly experienced, right? Nicki Ellington: And there really doesn't seem to be any, um, Groups of lawyers that don't experience it.[00:01:00] Dr. Harold Hong: Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one, struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Dr. Harold Hong: Nikki Ellington has been the Eastern Clinical Coordinator with a lawyer assistance program since 2014. She is dually licensed mental health and addictions therapist and has been practicing in the mental health field for the past 17 years. Ms. Ellington worked in a wide variety of outpatient settings with particular experience treating professionals and special forces services [00:02:00] members through her employment with the United States Army. Dr. Harold Hong: Ms. Huntington provides a confidential mental health service to any judge, lawyer, or a law student in the eastern half of the state, which encompasses High Point to the Outer Banks. Nikki Ellington, thank you for joining us here and finding New waters. It's Nicki Ellington: so good to have you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Nicki Ellington: All right, Dr. Harold Hong: great. So I think it's always helpful for our listeners to know more about you. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and what kind of work you're doing with the L A P? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, definitely. So as you mentioned, I've been in the mental health field for the last 17 years and, um, have had a lot of really good experiences, mostly in outpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: I've been able to do a lot of addictions work throughout my career. I'm mental health as well. Mm-hmm. And at the Lawyers' Assistance Program, I've been here for eight years and we provide free and confidential, I'll say it twice, confidential mental health support to [00:03:00] any lawyer in the state, and, um, My job is awesome. Nicki Ellington: I love my job. Um, I love working with the attorneys and the professionals, and I feel really grateful to be able to provide a safe space for lawyers to get the help that they need. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: So what does that look like? Can you tell us a little bit like, you know, if a, if a lawyer is, is struggling, like how does that, how does that process work? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, so most of the attorneys that I work with are self-referred, so they've heard about us. Our program's actually been around since the seventies and it started, it started originally out of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mm-hmm. With one. Uh, 12 stepping one lawyer, 12 stepping another. Mm-hmm. Um, when in need. And then over the years it's morphed into this much larger entity. Nicki Ellington: We have licensed staff now and we are able to provide services really for all types of mental health issues. So most of the time now, the attorneys have just heard about us, seen us at different [00:04:00] continuing education programs, seen us at the law schools. And, um, are able to come in and say, Hey, I'm dealing with something. Nicki Ellington: I would like a little extra help. So that is the majority of the folks that I see. That's awesome. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Very cool. So I gotta tell you, uh, I had the, the honor, uh, to speak at the LAP Conference in the fall in Asheville. And frankly, I was terrified going into that experience. I was thinking, I'm gonna be standing up talking about new material in front of a group of lawyers. Dr. Harold Hong: And as a doctor, I've been trained to fear lawyers intensely. Okay. And, um, I ha could not have been more wrong. It, the group there was so friendly, so energetic, like so down to earth. Um, and we just had a great time together. I, I loved it and I was shocked at how inviting and fun the people in the room were. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, Which to me is so like [00:05:00] the opposite of what I'll expect. Uh, being a professional thinking, you know, if I, if I have a substance use disorder, the, the medical board is going to make my life very challenging. I am, I would be terrified of referring myself to the board. And, but here I'm looking at you and you seem so friendly and open and inviting, and I just feel so confused. Dr. Harold Hong: So like, how do you talk to people about the process of making contact with l a p? Because. For me, I, I can't even imagine what that Nicki Ellington: would be like. Yeah. I, I, I mean, honestly, I do have to convince people and tell them many times that we are confidential, which is cool. I'm glad to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but we truly, truly are, we are not the secret police waiting for you in the wings trying to get ya. Nicki Ellington: Um, although our program is funded through the state bar, we are separate and [00:06:00] private. Wow. So anybody that works. So, and the state bar is a licensing body for attorneys, right. So any attorney that works with me, their name, anything that we talk about, it's all completely private and confidential does not get reported back to the state bar at all. Nicki Ellington: So, and even, you know, there are rare exceptions where we may have a lawyer that is involved with some sort of disciplinary action. Um, And even in those cases, I don't even like to use the word mandated. Mm-hmm. Because ultimately they still have to agree. Mm-hmm. They still have to agree to work with us and agree to allow me to communicate back to the state bar the basics of their compliance with our program. Nicki Ellington: Okay. But that's very few and far between. I see. I mean, on average, I would say I probably see two to three new lawyers each week. And out of all those attorneys I probably, like right now I probably only have four that are dealing with some sort of disciplinary action. Wow. Mm-hmm. Um, that's directly related to their mental health. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. So it's, yeah, majority are self [00:07:00] referred. And um, I think my observation as an outsider looking in has been the LAP has done a good job over the years of trying to really. Reinstate that we are confidential and reinforce that for the attorneys in the community. Mm-hmm. So hopefully they can trust us. Nicki Ellington: Wow. Yeah. That's a huge Dr. Harold Hong: resource. Yeah. It is. Yeah. To have, have elite mental health professionals there for you to support your profession and your career. And it's confidential. Yep. Nicki Ellington: That's a huge blessing. Yeah. Well, and the other benefit, like you got to see our conference and a lot of the all, almost all of the attorneys, there are folks that had been working with us for a long period of time. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Anywhere, two plus years. Mm-hmm. So we also have this wonderful network of lawyers who are trying to lead healthy lives. That's awesome. Which is so cool. Yeah. That we can provide that space, safe space for another attorney to like, Raise their hand and [00:08:00] say, you know, I could use a little extra help. Nicki Ellington: And we're able to provide that hope that like, yeah, you can get some extra help and your life can get better. And doesn't mean that life's always gonna be perfect, but we've got a support system to help you through it. Mm-hmm. And a group of your peers to show you that it's safe and that it's okay to not have to act like you have your stuff together all the time. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Uh, Justin Mclendon: so Nikki, I know one thing that's been, uh, One thing that you've wanted to talk about today is the, uh, imposter syndrome. I know you've been kind of, uh, passionate about that. There's been some, some talking that you've done recently about that, so maybe, maybe share a little bit with us about what's on Nicki Ellington: your mind. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, I, this has been something that I feel like lawyers and professionals generally have dealt with. You know, for a, maybe forever, for a really long time, but then, oh, now that more people are talking about it, we've got this nice, catchy name for it now. Right. Um, imposter syndrome and ultimately to me, I, uh, would define it as, [00:09:00] This experience, this feeling, and these thoughts that despite your, whatever external successes that you've been having, despite whatever achievements that you've accomplished, that you internally feel not good enough, like you don't deserve it, like you're a fraud, that people are gonna find out at some point. Nicki Ellington: And, um, everyone will know that you're a big phony. Mm-hmm. And. This is something that I talk with lawyers about probably on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. It probably comes up in one capacity or another in almost every single group that I run in every single assessment individual session. It's so commonly experienced. Nicki Ellington: Right. And there really doesn't seem to be any, um, Groups of lawyers that don't experience it really. Um, at some point, I mean, I, I wouldn't say that everyone does, right. But, um, even the people that on the outside look the most successful, the super lawyers mm-hmm. Like even them are having these same [00:10:00] feelings of insecurity and anxiety about their performance and their worth. Nicki Ellington: Um, so it can be really paralyzing. Mm-hmm. So I think. At lap. Um, this has come up so frequently also because they're able to say, I'm having these feelings, and everyone else in the room is just nodding their head like, yep, me too. I get it. Like, we've all been there, we get it, and we're able to kind of share how can we deal with that and bounce ideas off one another about what's worked for them. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. When, Dr. Harold Hong: when I saw your interest in imposter syndrome, I was actually surprised cuz I was thinking, you know, imposter syndrome is something I hear more about, like an Instagram, like TikTok, like just kind of popular media platforms and usually talking to people who are like college, young, adult, like early career. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, and so the, the idea of the imposter syndrome comes up a lot in your work working with lawyers who are early in the recovery. I was like, what's the connection? Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] Between alcohol, substances, process addiction and Nicki Ellington: imposter syndrome. You know, I don't know that the connection is with addiction, honestly. Nicki Ellington: I Okay. A, across the board, I see this with individuals that are dealing with depression, anxiety, trauma, um, substance use. Sure. I mean, really anything under the sun. And then stress, um, I've re, I've thought a lot about it and I feel like for attorneys and professionals in general, they are dealing with a different kind of stress. Nicki Ellington: And although I feel like a lot of jobs are stressful, there's a particular personality and, you know, not, not all lawyers are the same. Sure. But there's been enough. Patterns of personalities that I've observed that I think is drawn to the law. Mm-hmm. So perfectionism being an overachiever, being a type A person. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. A lot [00:12:00] of lawyers tend to fall in that category when they enter law school. They're kind of mixed with all the other folks that are in that same category. And my, you know, I went to school to be a therapist, which is a totally different experience than going to law school. School. We're all about the feelings, you know, they're like no feelings, just logic. Nicki Ellington: Uh, but at law, in law school, I. They, the way that the teaching style there, I think also doesn't set them up for a lot of success with the competition. Um, dealing with competition. It can be feel for a lot of people, very competitive. It can feel very, um, shaming if you don't know the answers, if you don't get things right now, I think. Nicki Ellington: My observation has been that I think law schools are trying to shift away from that model. Okay. Um, and I've got hope around that, but it's been a long time that they've been functioning in that framework. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:13:00] so it takes a long time for change to happen. Absolutely. So I think we kind of combine those two together and it's this recipe for disaster when they enter the practice of law. Nicki Ellington: Of just this, like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. You know? And I've heard a lot of lawyers say that in law school they teach you how to think like a lawyer. They don't teach you how to be a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Interesting. So then they enter this world where it's a whole new experience. And for a lot of folks that are overachievers and are perfectionists, they've not really had the experience of failing. Nicki Ellington: Um, they've not really had that happen. So when they enter. Law and they're like, I don't know how to do calendar call. I don't know how to write this brief or whatever. I, I'm not good with the examples all the time. Sure. But, um, the law examples, but, you know, that can really throw them, it can really throw them for a loop and that Yeah. Nicki Ellington: Sense of insecurity seems to mm-hmm. Seems to persist. Yeah. Um, [00:14:00] It and it can be addressed and dealt with. I don't know that I've seen it ever fully go away completely, but it becomes way more manageable mm-hmm. With treatment, with talking about it, with practicing alternative coping mechanisms for dealing with it. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So hopefully that describes it a little bit. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And my hunch about it was, uh, imposter syndrome. Me being a recovering person from imposter syndrome, it is so painful. To live with it. Right. It, it's, it's work is stressful enough and managing imposter syndrome on top of work just makes things unmanageable. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. It's so stressful. And I know that where, where there's pain, uh, there's self-medication, right? And so, um, the imposter syndrome, like a, a stressful day of feeling like you don't belong at work, you don't belong in your practice, you don't belong with your partners. Great time to go and have a drink. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: [00:15:00] That is for sure. Yeah. That is for sure. And it's this like self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Like I feel like a fraud. So I certainly can't let anybody know I'm a fraud, so I have to like overachieve and overcompensate mm-hmm. And work extra so everyone knows that I'm here and I'm doing a good job, um, and do all this adding more and more and more and more to the plate, but then having that relief. Nicki Ellington: You know, substances are the perfect way. Right, perfect way. Yeah. Right. Justin Mclendon: It's fast, it's predictable. Right, exactly. It's on demand. Nicki Ellington: Exactly. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna give me that kind of numb out, mm-hmm. Avoidant, relaxed state. Right. That a lot of people are looking for that escape the escapism for sure. But the Dr. Harold Hong: irony is, Then you, when you are so encumbered by alcohol, then, then you really don't belong Yes. Dr. Harold Hong: In the practice. Like you really don't belong with holding the responsibility of, of a [00:16:00] huge legal question. Hmm. Right? Nicki Ellington: Yes. It, yes. Um. I think it takes them a long time. A lot of lawyers, it takes them a long time to get to that point where they're able to recognize that. Mm-hmm. I think the denial system is, I mean, it's strong for MO a lot, most addicts and alcoholics of course. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. But the rationalizations for lawyers, I, my observation has been really embedded in not just their personality, but also the culture of practicing law, you know? Alcohol use in particular is very integrated into the practice where, you know, you're taking clients out and I think it's often, um, Shown as a way to deal with stress. Nicki Ellington: Like, you know, oh, I've had a hard day. I'm gonna go get a drink. You know, that's, so we're kind of like laying that in cement at when we're newly in the field that this is how we deal with stress, or it's a way a lot of people deal with stress. Mm-hmm. And that then, [00:17:00] so then how do you know if you're gonna be the person that can leave it there and have the one drink? Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Or if over time, You're not able to do that anymore. Right, right, right. So I think the other piece is that for lawyers and alcohol use in particular, it's this big secret cause they don't want others to know like how bad it is. And they're able to rationalize like, well, I only drink after five. I mean mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: I only drink when I get all my obligations done. Right. And then I'll drink, or I still pay all my bills. So like that should be fine. Mm-hmm. I go to all my kids' sports games. Mm-hmm. That's fine. Yeah. You know, I don't sh I drink in the morning. I'm not like that. Right. Um, so it's this concept two of like. Nicki Ellington: Am I really? I'm not like that. I'm not that bad. I don't need to do all that, you know? Right. And that's not how it looks for most lawyers. Most lawyers do not end up being the guy under a bridge. Right? Mm-hmm. Most of the [00:18:00] time when I see the real, um, serious external negative consequences from substance use mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: They're usually so far down the rabbit hole of addiction that their whole life is a complete. Mess. Um, so I think we're doing better about being able to address that sooner so that we're not on fire when we're going to get help. Um, but it, you know, it's hard, it's hard to be able to challenge those denial, that denial system. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: I'm always super interested in what makes someone change. Like what brings that person to the point of saying, today is the day I'm gonna call lap. Mm. Like, whereas like, Maybe the last 300 700 days of their life was the day that they could have called l a P. So why is it on day like 800 of the opportunity that today is today? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So I'm curious, like in your experience, like what are, what are the things going on in like the days [00:19:00] and weeks leading up to that moment? That people self-refer. Nicki Ellington: Yep. You know, and that's almost always the first question I ask people is like, what's been going on in your life most recently that made you wanna reach out now? Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And usually it's a lot of pain and suffering. Okay. It's like they've reached this point where it's like, okay, I know that I cannot fix this on my own now and I need some help. But with lawyers, you know, that's, um, can take a long time for them to recognize that they are in a helping profession. Nicki Ellington: They are the fixers, the problem solvers. Mm-hmm. They're the people that all their clients are going to to fix their lives. They're in their personal lives. Their family usually goes to them to help them with their problems. Yeah. So to be able to say, not only that, I cannot. Fix my problems because I, for myself, because I've tried to do that and I keep ending up in the same place, if not worse. Nicki Ellington: Hmm. I also need to ask someone for help to [00:20:00] do that. It takes a lot for them to get to that point, so a lot of pain and suffering. Another thing that I've seen help a lot. A lot of our volunteers, the folks that you got to meet at our conference are so brave and willing to sacrifice their own anonymity and confidentiality to help others. Nicki Ellington: So we have a great group of folks that are willing to get up and share their stories. That's awesome. Two other lawyers. Wow. And every single time one of our lawyers does that. We get at least one phone call from someone in the audience that says, I heard this person and that's me, and I can relate to that. Nicki Ellington: And it, you helped him so or her, so I'm hopeful that you can help me too. Wow, that's great. Yeah, it's powerful. That's powerful. Yeah, absolutely. Justin Mclendon: What about specifically with the. The imposter syndrome. I know you talked about maybe people don't necessarily, you know, kind of fully get over it or whatever, but what do you feel or what have [00:21:00] you seen like in your practice in working with the attorneys that, uh, helps them kind of shift or, or move through that? Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Um, I think the first thing is being able to recognize it. Mm-hmm. So a lot of the times, We have this inner critic that is telling us that we're not good enough. Mm-hmm. And I think in the very early stages of it, folks don't even really realize that it's not real, that it's not based in reality. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. You know, they think, no, really, I'm not good enough. Like, no, that's a fact. And when they're able to slowly let people in to see that side of them, then others are usually able to kind of question like, well wait. Didn't you tell me that you've, you know, you have had all these successes. Nicki Ellington: You did get into law school, you, there's a certain bar you have to meet. They get into law school, they let you in. One of my coworkers, Candace, I'll steal one of her stories, um, she shares about experiencing imposter syndrome on our, we have a podcast as well. Oh, cool. [00:22:00] And um, she told this story about how when she went to law school and she told this professor, you know, I really don't think I'm supposed to be here. Nicki Ellington: I feel like, you know mm-hmm. Like you guys. Definitely probably messed up in get in accepting me in here and, and the professor's like, okay, so you think not only that, you know better than us who accepted you in the first place, but that you're so smart that you tricked us all. She's like, Hmm, okay. Right. Nicki Ellington: She tells the story way better, of course. But I mean, to me that's like the perfect example of what that feels like. So when you're able to recognize, I think, so awareness, I think is the first step. Okay. Being able to notice like, okay, this inner critic is happening. Can I evaluate? If it's based in facts? Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Then being able to say, all right. I feel like, um, I've made a mistake or, or I've had a failure, a bad experience is that based [00:23:00] in facts. So I'll give another example of that where I had a lawyer contact me that, um, I'd been working with for a while and the attorney said, called me one day and said, I just lost my case. Nicki Ellington: I'm a horrible lawyer. I should just quit. I should never do this again. I'm clearly not meant to practice law. I just need to leave and you know, eventually if I keep going, I'm probably just gonna get disbarred anyways. I'm like, wow, okay. Like, let's slow down. Tell me what happened. So you lost your case. Nicki Ellington: Okay. Well it seems to me, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me there's always a winner or loser in these things. Did you make it from you? From what you can tell? Did you make any major mistakes? Was there anything that happened that went terribly wrong that you did? Mm-hmm. Right? The attorney's like, no. Nicki Ellington: And I'm like, okay. Well, so it seems to me like you tried your best. You did your best. We haven't noticed any major mistakes. There's a winner and a loser. Mm-hmm. You were the loser this time, and that's how it [00:24:00] works. Right? And that. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's because you did something wrong, right? Nicki Ellington: Right. It could be a variety of reasons that caused you to not win this case. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and that doesn't mean anything about your worth or your skill as a lawyer. So being able to kind of have that awareness and then being able to evaluate the facts. Is I think the next step. Mm-hmm. Now, a lot of the times, like for this attorney, they really weren't able to evaluate the facts for themselves. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. So they had to like phone a friend, they phoned me. Mm-hmm. Um, and we have a whole, you know, all of our volunteers do that for each other where they're able to say in a group or, or call a friend or call one of, um, our mentors and kind of talk through, this is what happened. This is how I feel. I feel like. Nicki Ellington: I've messed up. I feel like I'm not good enough, and somebody else can then reflect back, you know, the facts. Mm-hmm. What's based in reality. And I [00:25:00] think the more that you practice that, the easier it gets over time, the faster you're able to move through it. I think in the beginning, a lot of the times it can really stick with you. Nicki Ellington: It can ruin your mood for your whole day, maybe longer, and it just lingers on. And you're able to really move through it faster and kind of be able to practice letting it go. And the other thing that, um, a lot of our lawyers have been doing that I find to be very effective is practicing mindfulness and meditation. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Okay. So being able to, especially when like, To plan ahead. Mm-hmm. Um, so if you know you've got something really difficult on your calendar coming up or something really challenging for you planning in your day, I'm going to take the five minutes after this concludes and the five minutes, maybe even the five minutes before. Nicki Ellington: Five minutes after, just to practice some mindfulness practice. Just sitting with my thoughts and letting the feelings wash over me and not attach them and practice letting it [00:26:00] go, that can be very effective. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of mindfulness and meditation. I know Dr. Hong is as well. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. That's, that's always refreshing to hear that. Yeah. Where that helps, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. It's so shocking to how we are as humans, so easily disconnected from reality. Mm-hmm. Like, it sounds absurd, but it's so true, right? Like, we can get into our minds that all of these things are definitely. Going to happen, and we can get into our minds that like, I am definitely not the right person, uh, or I'm definitely not equipped for this, this task at hand. Dr. Harold Hong: And then a minute of reconnecting intentionally with reality. It's like, oh, like I, I used to think all these things, but now I, I, I think these things. Mm-hmm. And, and this is more functional, more realistic, and I, and I feel more confident, and this is more realistic than this scary version. Of reality. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But for some reason, [00:27:00] some of us are so much more inclined to go this way than this way. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Like what, what's your hunch about like lawyers and like you've worked with like tier one Special Forces people in your background? Like, I know this is a really common thing across the spectrum, so like mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: What is it about? Like high expectations, high talent. High, high drive people that gets them. Disconnect reality. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it, it's, I I always feel like it's both nature and nurture. Sure. Mm-hmm. So for me, I often feel like there probably is some stuff in Family of Origin mm-hmm. That contributes to the wiring of our brain that, uh, leads to us being maybe a little bit more anxious, um, a little bit more, um, Inclined to wanna detach from reality to avoid. Nicki Ellington: Sure. [00:28:00] Uh, so I think that's definitely a contributing factor. Is that maybe where you weren't set up. For success completely from our family of origin and that sticks with us. Mm-hmm. You know, that's, especially when it's happening in our early childhood, it's like laying like it in cement in our brain. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Um, and we have to really figure out ways to rewire that as we get older. Yeah. I think the other factor is personality. Um, I think person, those personality traits, some of them are just a part of us, uh, like having, um, the desire to want to do things right the first time. Mm-hmm. I remember, um, I have a 10 year old son and when he first started school, I remember him sitting at the table and doing some school project and. Nicki Ellington: Instantly getting frustrated cuz he couldn't do it perfectly the first time. Mm-hmm. And crumbling up the paper and throwing it across the room and I was like, oh my God. Like what is happening? But you know how, to me that was the [00:29:00] perfect example Yeah. Of how this is a part of who he is. I don't think any we made him that way. Nicki Ellington: Sure. Um, it was just kind of there, but being able anyways, so yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that's the other piece. This also the. Self-efficacy, this belief that you can be successful and can do things. Some people have a greater amount of self-efficacy naturally. Mm-hmm. Than others. Mm-hmm. True. Um, so being able to kind of recognize that, I think, anyways, I think that's a contributing factor. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. To why someone might be in that. Yeah. Those. Desires. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Does it affect how they relate to their, their spouses, their partners, their kids? Or is it just, uh, a major issue at work? Nicki Ellington: I mean, I, I don't know that it could be that isolated and siloed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, it bleeds into all areas of our life, and the more, the longer it go, it goes untreated, whether it be our substance [00:30:00] use or anxiety or depression, imposter syndrome. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Whatever stress. It's inevitable that it's going to bleed into other areas of our life and become worse over time. Mm-hmm. Without treatment, we, you know, doing nothing about it is not gonna lead to just miraculous spontaneous change most of the time. Yeah. Right. Or not in my life anyways. Uh, so. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, I think it does affect their relationships and that might also be part of the denial system that keeps them sick longer. Mm-hmm. Is like, will my kid, you know? Yeah. I drink after my kid goes to bed or, um, you know, yeah, sure. I'm at work until nine every night, but that can't have an impact on my family. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. They, you know, they know I love them and it's like, well, yeah, they do to some degree and. This also does have a impa impact on others. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:31:00] And I was just thinking about a family of like an like, like, uh, an upper, like an affluent, well todo family. Um, the, the parent that's a lawyer has a drinking problem and how, like, how terrifying it would be to call, name it a problem. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Because what, what will the neighborhood think? What will the, the partners at the firm think, uh, what happens to all these memberships that they prize? Yep. Like, and I can see that. What, what is, how do you navigate that with the Nicki Ellington: family? Absolutely. I think that is a huge barrier to lawyers getting help. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. I think their, um, fear that other people are gonna know. That I have a problem that I cannot fix for myself. Right. And, and that I'm gonna need extra help around, or, you know, I think that's a huge challenge for them to process and work through. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] I, the one, one benefit of being able to come to LAP is that we are, we're all like, they're all in there together. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. And they're, they've all kind of lived through that experience of having to kind of say, Yeah, it is hard for people to know and a lot of it is too, is like that's your disease of alcoholism, keeping you sick. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That ultimately, no. Most people that don't have a drinking problem don't care. Nicki Ellington: They don't care. They, they really don't, they're not thinking about you. Right. Like that extensively. Yeah. Most of the time. Mm-hmm. They're not watching you at the business meeting to see if you're consuming alcohol. Mm-hmm. And what I always remind people too is if someone does tend to comment or give you a hard time about not drinking, it's usually probably because they have a drinking problem themselves. Nicki Ellington: You know, you're the mirror like, um, so it's. [00:33:00] Being able to talk about it, I think helps being, when we are able to name it, when we're able to say it, it gives it less power. Mm-hmm. So when we're able to do that in a safe place, Like lap, like here at New Waters. Mm-hmm. Then we're able to really move through it and, um, get the help that we need. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Yeah. I could imagine how disarming that can potentially be for somebody if they're, you know, holding on. So, uh, so tightly, so rigid about like this belief about their self and not needing, not wanting to let this out, but then like you said, being able to come into a group where it's like, oh, we're all the same, we're all dealing with the same Nicki Ellington: stuff, which is mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: And with substance abuse in particular. Yes. I think. A lot of the lawyers, they really feel like they're doing a good job hiding it. Mm-hmm. But they're really not. Yeah. You know, um, people know. Yeah. People know already to some degree y they probably do have an idea and ESP and. I try to help them to [00:34:00] see like, wouldn't you much rather people know you as the, a healthy version of you mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: Than a person who's sick, than a person who's smelling like alcohol in the elevator at the courthouse mm-hmm. Than the person that Yeah. You know, is sneaking out to get beers at lunch. Mm-hmm. Versus someone like that's going to therapy and getting help. Sure. Like, I'd much rather someone know me like that. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah, I think. That, that's one of the things about imposter syndrome is like the only thing worse than feeling like you don't belong is other people seeing that you don't belong. Mm-hmm. Uh, or other people believing that. But all of this is just in our own thinking, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Just like you're saying, like people don't think like that. Like they're, they're really not, and they, they would much rather have you whole and healthy mm-hmm. And recovered than struggling and slowly burning yourself out. As you're trying to juggle all of these problems simultaneously Nicki Ellington: and convincing 'em of that, especially when I'm dealing [00:35:00] with an attorney that I believe could really benefit from going to inpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That can be a big barrier, right? Where they. Um, have a lot of reasons why they should not go. A lot of them are valid. They do have important cases. They do work a lot. They, they will be missed to some degree if they take the time off to get the care that they need. And I probably send myself, and I have a counterpart, Kathy, that works at the Charlotte office, but I would say I probably send between 10 and 20 attorneys each year to treatment inpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: Life goes on. Yeah, life goes on, the firm goes on, and we have options to help you through that. Especially a lot of solo practitioners, folks that are in their own firm with no administrative help really get stuck in that mindset that I cannot take this time off. And there are some real challenging situations that would make it [00:36:00] difficult, and we will do our very best at LAP to support you to brainstorm ways. Nicki Ellington: That we can support you to help you to get the help that you need versus staying stuck because you feel like you can't go, cuz you can't financially afford it. Cuz you can't take the time off cuz you can't not collect a new business. Mm-hmm. For the folks that do take that healthy risk and go get the help they need, I've never seen them look back and say, my life is worse now. Nicki Ellington: Mm. Never. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: That's awesome. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Uhhuh. Well, especially in this thought that just came up while you were talking is the, um, especially like the imposter syndrome piece, I think. I wonder how much like just desensitization maybe helps with that. Like, for example, like, um, you know, I can't let these people know that I'm not good enough, so I have to overcompensate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Justin Mclendon: Uh, and then what if they leaned into, You know, what if I just ask for help? Right? Or what if I do actually take time [00:37:00] to focus on my mental health or physical health and things like that. So I wonder seeing those individuals, those as attorneys that do recover, do turn their lives around, do you find kind of a, like an over or a portion or overwhelming part of those people, like be able to kind of handle Nicki Ellington: that stuff better? Nicki Ellington: For sure. Yeah. I think ask my opinion is that asking for help is a skill. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. That is a skill that not everybody knows. Yes. And especially within the practice of law. And I can imagine in lots of other types of professions, it's not really ingrained in the culture of Right. That prac of practicing law to ask for help. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Um, so that is a skill that has to be learned. And I think the lawyers that go to treatment that get help that, that participate in support groups, they are learning that. And that doesn't mean that it's always going to be easy. Sure. And another benefit of being amongst your peers is there's some accountability there that somebody else can say.[00:38:00] Nicki Ellington: Well have, did you think about asking for help in that situation and mm-hmm. Then you're able to say, oh no, I really wanted to buckle down and do it myself. Sure. Right. Yeah. Um, so you have other people that can reflect back that maybe remind yeah. That maybe this would be a good time to try, you know, getting back on that horse of asking for help and using That's great. Nicki Ellington: All the coping mechanisms. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's great. That's good stuff. We all need a little accountability and support for sure. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, sometimes our family members or our, our partners see it way before we do. Uh, can they reach out to lap Yes. Anonymously or say like, have a friend. Uh, and if you've ever had one of those situations, can you tell us about a story about Nicki Ellington: how that worked out? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, for sure. And, um, Family members, spouses, even other attorneys will call us. Uh, that [00:39:00] whole uh, conversation can be confidential. Okay. And I'm able to kind of process with them what's the best avenue to handle it. Mm-hmm. So I can think of, I have several examples where that has happened, but I can think of one in particular where a wife called about, Her husband that was, um, suffering from alcoholism and really entrenched in it and, and really was scaring her. Nicki Ellington: Um, wow. It was a pretty scary situation. Mm, mm-hmm. Not for her physical safety, but for his own health. Sure. And um mm-hmm. She was afraid he was gonna die. Yeah. And she was able to call and we were able to help stage an intervention for this attorney to go to treatment and, Thankfully he did, and we were able to kind of help her through the process of navigating, getting into treatment. Nicki Ellington: That in itself can be a really difficult thing Absolutely. To navigate being able to know, where do I even go? Mm-hmm. Who do I call? Mm-hmm. Right. [00:40:00] What about my insurance? Who's gonna pay for that? Right. You know, so be, uh, we are able to, we are kind of, Kathy and I, the two clinicians at LAP are kind of the boots on the ground within the treatment industry mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: To give guidance about, like, this might be a great place for your significant other based on what you're telling me about him. And we're also able to provide some extra support to the spouse that. What we can do when we're living with someone that's in active addiction, cuz unfortunately they're not always gonna be ready when you want them, probably rarely are ready when you'd like them to be ready. Nicki Ellington: That's great. So we're able to kind of help them process that as well by, you know, us providing support, but also providing resources mm-hmm. To this significant other. Other lawyers will have reason to call sometimes too, when they're concerned about a colleague. Mm-hmm. And we're also able to provide intervention confidentially and in a safe way. Nicki Ellington: We're able to keep the referral source [00:41:00] completely private. We do not re report to anyone about who has called Okay. About the lawyer that they're worried about. Um, lawyers get in trouble sometimes too. Sure. And people. Tend to know when that happens. Mm-hmm. So we're able to kind of say, offer a hand. Nicki Ellington: That's how I would put it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We can't force anyone to do anything. Uh, we're the carrot, not the stick. So we're able to kind of say, Hey, we've heard you're having a hard time, whether it be myself or one of our lawyer volunteers that, um, fall under the same confidentiality policy that I do at lap. Nicki Ellington: Okay. They're able to kind of reach out and say, Hey, we're have heard you're struggling and. We're here to help if you'd like it. Hmm. And you know, they may not always wanna take us up on that Yeah. In that moment. But I will say majority of them do come around at some point. Wow. They usually keep that phone number. Nicki Ellington: That's awesome. And down the road when they become a little more ready or have experience, unfortunately, maybe a little more pain and [00:42:00] suffering. Mm-hmm. Sure. Then they pick up the phone and call. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. But I'm thinking about that, that family that you, you help, like the, the wife that call, I mean, It's, you literally saved a life by setting emotion, this intervention, cuz the way that this person's going, it really ends one Nicki Ellington: way. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, and I, I am very grateful to be a small piece and I really look at it as a small piece cuz I. The attorney is the one that has to do all the hard work and heavy lifting. We're just kind of leading the horse to water. Mm-hmm. I can't make any of them drink. Mm-hmm. But we can show them the way, we can show them the light, we can show them that there's hope and that it gets better and it really, really does. Nicki Ellington: It gets better. Mm-hmm. And it's not, you know, as you guys are well aware, it's not this linear path upwards. Sure. There's bumps along the way, and that's another piece of our program is that there's no time limit. [00:43:00] We work with people indefinitely. So even those folks that were at our conference, folks that I, I've known for eight years that have been involved with LAP for 30 years, are still gonna experience life. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. And have bumps along the way, and we are always there to support them through it, no matter. What's going on. Yeah. Because we all need that love and compassion. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: We do indeed. We do. We, a lot of us are raised to not know that. A lot of us are raised to think you study hard, you work hard, you pay your bills, and that's all you need. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. No excuses. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. But there's so much more Yeah. Nicki Ellington: To it than that. Yep. And life becomes so much more fulfilling and joyful when we're able to kind of accept the help and move through the change and give ourselves grace. Mm-hmm. That's the other thing that with lawyers, lawyers are so hard on themselves. Nicki Ellington: That's one thing that [00:44:00] I notice really across the board. Mm-hmm. And that, you know, that perfectionism, overachieving, it's so lined up, but so hard on themselves and. Ultimately just give yourself a little grace. It's okay. Yeah. It's okay to not be perfect and to not have it all together and it's, there's no expectation of that. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. We don't have any expectation of that. Mm-hmm. And we can help you to learn how to not have that for yourself. Right. Justin Mclendon: Which is huge because that's, uh, I mean, I can only imagine that's a miserable way to live. Yeah. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: It's tough. Yeah. I mean, that, that's part of the disease, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Right. The disease is to see yourself realistically and to overreact to the pain that comes and not deal with the pain to begin with. And, and, and at that point, I, you know, I, I don't blame people for wanting to intoxicate themselves right out of that pain. Absolutely. It's awful. It's awful. Uh, but re recovery is, [00:45:00] Seeing yourself realistically and, and saying, this conversation that I've been having with myself for the past 10, 20 years, it, it doesn't make sense. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And, and I need to find a new way to talk to myself. Nicki Ellington: Yep. I think we all go through that, like that's kind of the human experience to some degree. Like we sure all have ways of surviving. Mm-hmm. That. As we get older, become probably ineffective and we can keep trying to force that square peg into the round hole over and over again. Nicki Ellington: Or we can reach that point where we choose to do something different. Mm-hmm. Because what we've been doing isn't working for me. Mm-hmm. It's a survival mechanism that's not helping me to survive anymore. Right. Yeah. Or maybe I want more than surviving, I wanna thrive and that's, it's not gonna be this way. Nicki Ellington: Right. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, Nikki, this has been amazing. Uh, we talked about how dark life can be, uh, when we let imposter syndrome take us all the way to where it wants us to go. [00:46:00] Uh, but you've also seen how it can be completely different and full of life and, and fulfillment. Um, and L Lap P is free, professional and confidential. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, what a gift it is, uh, for our lawyers in North Carolina. Um, so thank you so much for being with us here today to talk about it. Nicki Ellington: Thank you so much for having me, and I'm so happy to, um, be involved with New Waters and be a supporter of your growth and success. So thanks for having me. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Show Notes Welcome to Finding New Waters, the podcast that delves into the personal and professional journeys of individuals overcoming challenges and finding fulfillment. In this captivating episode, join us as we sit down with Nikki Ellington, a compassionate advocate working alongside lawyers to navigate mental health issues. In this thought-provoking interview, Nikki opens up about the pervasive experience known as imposter syndrome, a phenomenon that often leaves lawyers feeling inadequate and apprehensive that their true abilities will be exposed. Nikki and her dedicated team offer a confidential support system where lawyers can safely seek assistance without the fear of judgment or disclosure. Nikki passionately emphasizes the importance of reaching out for help when needed, as she firmly believes that everyone, regardless of their profession, can benefit from a helping hand. We delve into the detrimental impact of imposter syndrome on lawyers' well-being, exploring how it induces severe stress and may even lead individuals to adopt unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as excessive alcohol consumption. However, Nikki highlights the significance of addressing these emotions and finding healthier alternatives to cope. By fostering open discussions about imposter syndrome and promoting self-reflection, lawyers can regain their confidence and overcome its burdens. Nikki also shares how mindfulness and meditation practices have proven effective in soothing anxieties and cultivating self-assurance among legal professionals. Navigating life's challenges can be overwhelming, leaving individuals feeling anxious and fearful. Nikki introduces the concept of mindfulness as a powerful tool to combat these emotions. Through simple exercises, listeners can learn to detach from negative thoughts, allowing emotions to pass without attachment. This practice is particularly beneficial for lawyers who may struggle to distinguish between reality and distorted perceptions, as mindfulness helps maintain emotional balance and prevent the negative impact from seeping into other aspects of their lives, including their relationships with loved ones. Breaking the stigma surrounding seeking help, Nikki addresses the common apprehensions lawyers face when considering reaching out for support. Concerned about the judgments of others, lawyers may hesitate to seek assistance, forgetting that people are typically preoccupied with their own challenges. However, the reality is that seeking help is a vital step toward nurturing one's well-being. By connecting with empathetic professionals, lawyers can gain invaluable guidance, not only benefiting themselves but also safeguarding the welfare of their families and friends. Confidentiality is paramount in these support systems, ensuring the privacy of those seeking assistance. Discover the dedicated individuals working tirelessly to aid lawyers facing issues of belonging and addiction. While it may be daunting for lawyers to take that initial step, prioritizing their health and well-being is of utmost importance. These unsung heroes provide holistic support, extending their assistance to the families and friends of those seeking help. Rest assured, their commitment to confidentiality creates a secure environment, fostering growth and empowering lawyers to overcome obstacles that may otherwise jeopardize their lives. Nicki Ellington Links: https://www.nclap.org/about-staff/ (https://www.nclap.org/about-staff/) https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-ellington-715a0b91/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-ellington-715a0b91/) Podcast Website: ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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In this illuminating episode of "Finding New Waters," we delve into the world of holistic healing and compassionate communication with our special guest, Ryan Hanson. With over two decades of experience in behavioral healthcare, Ryan shares his insights into sexual health, grief and loss, addiction, and more. Join us as we explore the transformative power of redefining success and finding passion and purpose in life. < Back to Episodes Reimagining Success and Finding Balance with Ryan Hanson 44:53 min | Ryan Hanson | Finding New Waters In this illuminating episode of "Finding New Waters," we delve into the world of holistic healing and compassionate communication with our special guest, Ryan Hanson. With over two decades of experience in behavioral healthcare, Ryan shares his insights into sexual health, grief and loss, addiction, and more. Join us as we explore the transformative power of redefining success and finding passion and purpose in life. Ryan's dedication to balance and compassionate connection shines through in this enlightening conversation. Tune in and discover new pathways to healing and personal growth! Subscribe "I'm always excited when individual providers and academics and science work together because I'll use an example like a biometric tool that's not medical grade, but it starts to provide information that I can use to potentially change behavior, improve health and wellness, improve connection. That stuff's cool. And it produces real change that people can see." - Ryan Hanson Podcast Transcript Ryan Hanson Ryan Hanson: [00:00:00] Helping individuals to become their own advocates, helping individuals to become more informed, uh, healthcare decision makers in a variety of ways, it, it, it has to be personal, like, like, good general information is nice, but, you know, most of us are smart enough, uh, Or egotistical enough that that that we can we can talk away logical information is you pointed out the second that somebody points out to me that if I have a drink later in the evening, I don't sleep as well. Ryan Hanson: It's that simple. But but it's that important that it's that simple. That person can use their information. It's not just general information about alcohol later in the day. It could affect your sleep. It's when I have a drink or when, you know, in my case, when I need to, you know, the bowl of ice cream at nine p. Ryan Hanson: m. I'm not going to sleep as well. It's obvious. But, you know, and [00:01:00] individuals, you know, again, in that example, it's It doesn't mean I'm not going to do it, but at least the next day, I'm not blaming it on something else. I can, I can have some accountability around it and I can make some decisions about what I'm going to do now in order to, to feel better in a more sustainable Ryan Hanson: way. Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durgie and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a [00:02:00] loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong, and Ryan Hansen, who is a founding partner at Trifecta. Graham Doerge: Trifecta specializes in advanced consulting and therapeutic services for a discerning clientele. Ryan Hansen boasts an extensive 20 plus year background in behavioral healthcare, combining clinical expertise, research acumen, and organizational leadership. His commitment to authentic, compassionate communication has driven positive results within multiple organizations, enhancing team morale, productivity, and loyalty. Graham Doerge: Ryan's therapeutic expertise is vast with a focus on sexual health, grief and loss, career development, addiction, mental health, and process driven disorders. His systematic approach takes into account the whole individual, offering a holistic pathway toward Toward healing and balance. His [00:03:00] clinical work has fueled his talent for innovative program development by harnessing creativity, data-driven decision making and best practices. Graham Doerge: Ryan has built sustainable and profitable programs and startups, not-for-profit centers and large healthcare corporations. His solid business acumen extends to board management, state licensure, program accreditation, and facility oversight. Ryan, thank you for being here with us. Ryan Hanson: Thank you for inviting me. Ryan Hanson: It's great to be here. Of course. Graham Doerge: Of course. We, uh, we go back, uh, many years, uh, back to my days back in Florida when you were at, uh, Karen treatment centers and, and I was at voyage. And, uh, it's just great to reconnect with you. We, we haven't seen each other or talked in, in quite a little while. So I'm very excited to. Graham Doerge: Learn more about trifecta and for our listeners to learn a little bit more about what you guys are doing. So why don't we kind of start there and you can tell us, um, just a little bit about, you know, what trifecta is and, and kind of the work that you guys are doing right now. Ryan Hanson: Yeah. Thank you. Uh, trifecta [00:04:00] was really designed, you know, uh, Myself, Liz Duffy and Randall Mullings, uh, have a number of years of experience in the behavioral health industry, and we designed Trifecta after seeing a whole bunch of things that were extremely helpful for clients and families and life changing. Ryan Hanson: And also some components that didn't work on. And we really wanted to figure out the, the, why didn't it work? What, what was missing? What was misapplied? What could have been done better? Um, we all take it very personally about how a client or a family, uh, how they do, uh, you know, what, whether their lives get better. Ryan Hanson: Um, and so. The idea behind trifecta was always let's tailor it to each person and really make sure that we understand what they need, what blind [00:05:00] spots are present, working with the entire system and using measurable strategies throughout the course of our time with someone to make sure that what we're doing is having the effect that the client and the family have have asked Asked to have help with and that's that's what trifecta was founded on. Ryan Hanson: Yeah, Graham Doerge: and I think that's so Important especially right now in in kind of you know As the world that we're in and the clients that we're seeing on a daily basis these days I feel are more complex than ever, right? We're just dealing with way more variables now you know going down to kind of social media and all the kind of aspects of that and Um, you know, uh, a lot of very, very complex mental health issues. Graham Doerge: And, and I think that you're a hundred percent on the, on the button, right? And, you know, we've got to be individualizing our care like this, this model of kind of, uh, I call it kind of crackerjack treatment where, you know, [00:06:00] this, you know, one size fits all, you know, treatment is just doesn't work for, for the stuff that we're seeing these days, you know? Graham Doerge: Um, so, so important to, to highlight that and, and kind of how you guys. Manage that. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I'm curious to hear more about what are some stories of clients that have sought out your services? Like, what are some of the stories that motivate them to engage with Trifecta? Uh, in the background, my question is, we have a lot of We see many people who don't know they need help, uh, until someone really puts it in front of their face through an intervention of some kind and then they come in and then, you know, thankfully they feel grateful that someone put that issue in front of them. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, so I'm always curious about to hear these stories of people who didn't really know they needed help or. Realized they needed help. But what was that insight that connected them with a place like Ryan Hanson: trifecta? Well, um, [00:07:00] the, the relationships that we've spent, you know, 20 plus years developing, um, we don't advertise our services. Ryan Hanson: So everyone who gets to us is a referral from someone we already know. Um, and that. That kind of has set the stage for, you know, is that, you know, a reputable assessment program that says, look, here's what we've found out. This isn't our wheelhouse. Can you help? Or will you help? Um, would this be a good fit? Ryan Hanson: Right? Those are the types of introductions that we, we typically, uh, have at the beginning, but the clients that are coming to us are coming to us for a variety of reasons, right? So, um, Um, Individuals who are struggling with substance use and mental health, um, whether it's themselves, whether it's their, their referring to therapist, a friend, a wealth manager, [00:08:00] uh, an agent, um, you know, someone within their system. Ryan Hanson: Is trying to, you know, to encourage change and, and, you know, as we all know, individuals can be in varying stages of openness to that process. And so those clients that they, they get to us and, and many times it's the identified individual who has the problem. Right? And as we start working with the whole system, and that's really our approach, we're a systemic approach. Ryan Hanson: We don't. We don't generally want to, uh, focus only on one component. Um, and so that allows us then to, to get into, uh, family work and relationships and business, business partnerships and, uh, financial health and medical health and, and, and really start incorporating all the pieces of, of who someone is, uh, and what matters to [00:09:00] them. Ryan Hanson: Um, so, you know, we have, you know, we've worked with. High profile individuals, and we've worked with family members, and we've worked with a whole bunch of people that nobody would have ever heard of. They're wonderful people. And, and, and all of them are coming on some level, because of pressure. There's a pressure that either internally, externally, or both is really pushing. Ryan Hanson: On them to do something different in their life, and they may be incredibly willing to to tackle what we would identify as as the, you know, the, uh, the primary concern and sometimes they're not. And regardless, because we're working with the system, we can start providing tools and resources. Uh, to hopefully move, move the individual in the system itself toward, uh, a healthier level of functioning and, uh, and, and, [00:10:00] and more productivity and more happiness. Ryan Hanson: Yeah. Graham Doerge: And I kind of think of you guys as kind of, as the, uh, like crisis intervention team, right. And you're coming in on, you know, at the front end when the family is. Blowing up and, you know, kind of keeping it all together and, and, you know, it's unfortunate, but most people have no clue what to do when they're faced with this. Graham Doerge: Right. And, you know, we've talked about this many times on the pod before, but it's, you know, the dreaded people start Googling things and, you know, looking for information online and you can really never know what's what or who, you know, what program is a good one. Um, so, you know, I think having a team like you guys who are so entrenched and have been doing this for so long to really say like, listen. Graham Doerge: We've got it. We're going to, we're going to help you guys walk this path. We know all the right programs for different specialties and all that. And, and then, you know, when you get the client to, you know, whichever program is, is a good fit for them, you continue to work with the family component and kind of handle and manage [00:11:00] that, which is such a big help to us as a program, right. Graham Doerge: To, you know, cause families that can be a lot of times a huge, uh, part of the, of the core issue, right. And, and to have like. To have a little bit of space there while the identified patient is in treatment is really an important piece, until they're ready to do that family work, right? Ryan Hanson: So I would agree with that wholeheartedly. Graham, it, it, what's, what's important to all of us. It's connection. It's, it's feeling loved and loving others and, and, and, you know, being spiritually connected and emotionally connected and physically connected and, and families. And, and my, my career has been about working with families. Ryan Hanson: I fell into it. Um, but it has been, um, And guided everything that I've ever done. So the families, many [00:12:00] programs tend to view them as the wild card or the X factor and they're not quite sure what to do with them. And we approach it from the lens of that's probably the most important component of someone's approach to wellness is. Ryan Hanson: They don't want to be left behind by their family, and they don't want to have to leave their family behind in order to be well. So everyone in the system deserves a chance. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Agreed. Dr. Harold Hong: What are some ways that you get the family engaged? Because in my experience, many family members will say like, I'm, I'm fine. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. It's my husband or it's my partner. It's my child. They're the one that needs the help. Why are you looking Ryan Hanson: at me? Yeah. Yes. Everything in our, everything in our home would be fantastic if this one thing changed. Right. And, and on some level, they're correct in the sense that that thing is [00:13:00] causing problems. Ryan Hanson: Um, but it normally only takes about half a conversation to ask a family member what it is. Would you have been doing with all of your energy that's gone to this one problem? Yeah. What would you have been doing with all that energy for the last year, five years, 10 years, however long it's been going on. Ryan Hanson: And most of the time a door opens into, yeah, I, I, I quit my job 10 years ago. To pick up the slack, or I had to work two jobs to pick up the slack, or I quit singing, or I quit, you know, and almost everyone gets there quickly to, yeah, this is what I would have been doing. And that's normally the entry point to, okay, well, then it's not about saying that you're, you're sick. Ryan Hanson: It's about saying. That you've experienced this also, and, and, and what would you need to be [00:14:00] whole again? Graham Doerge: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, you know, I, I just feel it's always interesting with the family aspect too. I know in my, from my own family, my own experience, it was, you know, kind of going to And Alan on meeting and saying, well, that's not really for me. Graham Doerge: You know, you know, like you, it's great that you go to a, like, I don't really need this is about you and not really understanding that this is just a family disease. Right. And, um, so what kind of work are you guys doing with the families? Are you, are you meeting with them kind of weekly doing sessions, recommending any sort of like outside. Graham Doerge: Um, you know, uh, community based work or what do you guys do with your clients? Ryan Hanson: Similar to, you know, the identified individual who comes into our care and into our system. We approach it the same way with a family member. It's not a programmatic, you know, everybody does A, B, and C, and everybody gets sent to this type [00:15:00] of support or everybody, um, Everybody has to do a codependency worksheet. Ryan Hanson: We don't approach it that way. Approach it from a very individualized standpoint. We need to know about you. And then we, we tailor a plan. If someone needs to be on the phone twice a week. Great. Then that's how we're going to figure it out. If it's twice a month, that's fine. If it's some of the wonderful family support meetings that are already available. Ryan Hanson: Great. Let's let's help you be able to access that. But if there are going to be barriers to that. Then we we try to be as creative as we possibly can to eliminate the things that that stop people. And then Graham, you give a great example that someone goes to their 1st Al Anon meeting and they identify differences. Ryan Hanson: They identify all the things that are unlike them and say, this isn't helpful for me. Or I didn't, I didn't relate or I don't see how this [00:16:00] applies to my situation. And so we want to shift the thinking around that to. You tell us, and we're going to work together to identify what you need. And then we're going to do 10 things to make sure that, that we found it. Ryan Hanson: That's great. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And when you're thinking about starting the work with the clients and given how individualized the approach is, what's your, uh, framework or lens that you'll bring to try and understand, like, what are the core pieces of this puzzle? Ryan Hanson: So, uh, we start with some of the basics, which we've all learned, you know, the biopsychosocial assessments were gaining records from previous previous providers. Ryan Hanson: If if if they're there. Ryan Hanson: Family histories, [00:17:00] you know, we're getting information from collateral sources to be able to corroborate or rule in or rule out information. And then then similar to to the great work that you're doing starting to find out where don't we have enough information, right? It's and we are, you know, we're happy to go outside of ourselves. Ryan Hanson: We want to work with other professionals. Who are in different realms and different disciplines. Uh, so, you know, someone says, you know, everything changed when we, we got our home in Vermont and in 1989. Great. Well, let's talk about that. But then let's also look at, you know, potential environmental factors. Ryan Hanson: Somebody contract Lyme disease. And if they've been struggling with that on a Um, You know, a physical and neurological level ever since and it's never been talked about, or it was treated, but may not have been [00:18:00] completely resolved. I mean, there, there are 1000 different pieces that when we start picking apart, we can find the big ones. Ryan Hanson: And we can also make sure that the ones that may have gotten missed that would have tripped us up. Yeah. Yeah. And I Graham Doerge: think that, you know, that that's, uh, kind of highlights, you know, the work that we do here at New Waters to an extent with, you know, really getting that. information. You know, traditionally, it's been a lot of, you know, treatment placement happened pretty quick because families were in crisis and we had to get them somewhere safe, you know, as, as quickly as possible and medicated and stabilized and all of that. Graham Doerge: And, you know, we do that here, but I think even more importantly, it's like it's, it's doing, you know, the assessment work that we do here and getting that information on the front end because it's, it's, it's so hard to really get the full scope of what's happening with this individual on, you know, a couple of phone calls trying to make placements and, and find out what's going on. Graham Doerge: But, [00:19:00] you know, if everybody stops, takes a deep breath, you know, does some assessment work, um, some psychological testing, you know, full medical workup, psychological workup, and then we have such valuable information to move forward and say, okay, this is what's really going on with this individual. And this, Is what's driving our referral moving forward. Graham Doerge: Um, instead of just kind of throwing darts at a dartboard, you know, which is, I feel like we've done for a while. So it's cool to, you know, be partnering with you guys in a, in a sense, and working with you all a lot on, on being that kind of source of information, really, you know, and helping, you know, uh, positive outcomes, you know, moving forward, Dr. Harold Hong: uh, when it comes to helping clients Ryan Hanson: build, we're in full agreement. Dr. Harold Hong: When it comes to helping your clients build insight, what are some, some of your favorites, the stories about like breakthrough moments and how they got there. Ryan Hanson: Um, so I, I, I'm a big fan of, [00:20:00] uh, throwing things back in your face. Um, it, it, it's not called that, uh, most of the time, but it's, it's, you know, if, if. Ryan Hanson: I want to make sure that every client understands that we're listening. And so when we create care plans, those care plans are, this is what you're telling me you want to accomplish. This is what we would agree. We agreed together. We were going to use to measure that and how you would know that we made, you know, that we made a difference, that your life is better today. Ryan Hanson: And, and so those great moments are when somebody, somebody says, you know, I don't know why I've been doing this. Like, you know, I just spent a lot of money and, and I'm not, I'm not any happier and we pull something out and we go back to, you know, you told me you're fighting with your spouse every single day that you literally go to bed angry every, every night of the week. Ryan Hanson: And over the last [00:21:00] month, you've told me that you had one argument with your spouse. So something changed, right? And if, if we need to shift to something else, or, or we've accomplished what we set out to do, awesome. You know, those moments of insight are Oh, I did say that, you know, I told you at the beginning, uh, I remember a specific young man that said, I am never, ever getting married. Ryan Hanson: Never like, okay, you know, that that's, I don't play matchmakers. That's not really a concern of mine, but what, what had happened is because of some of the experiences that he had in the past, his, Connections had really shrunk. His need for safety had shrunk some of that and, you know, six or nine months [00:22:00] after, uh, after we started doing some work. Ryan Hanson: He came in and he said, you know what, I met this person and I think, I think this could really turn into something. And I'm like, I'm just going to like tell you now, you promised you were never getting married. And he started laughing because he never remembered saying that. He's like, I know I probably did say it, but he's like, uh, you know, and we're, you know, fast forward four and a half years later and two children that have been added to the mix. Ryan Hanson: And, you know, it's. You know, he's happy. He has a life and, and, and he gets to share, share it with people in, in a way that he created. Yeah, Graham Doerge: it's beautiful. And, you know, I guess one of the things that I, I wanted to, you know, dig into as well, because you guys are, are, um, You know, with the families throughout, you know, the entire treatment episode and, and in most cases, I would assume you're working [00:23:00] with families after the fact and through the aftercare and, and all of that, and, you know, how, in your opinion, does individualized treatment or care, um, really set people off for success and, and, you know, with relapse prevention and, you know, positive outcomes and, you know, what, what's the importance of that in your mind, Ryan Hanson: there's, there's no reason to do it. Thank you. If you can't prove that it worked, um, and, and, and, and opening clients up and opening really the behavioral health industry up to, um, being accountable. In the sense of we have a responsibility to be behavioral sciences, um, and, and, and, and really pushing an industry into change and, and, and clients plants on some [00:24:00] levels. Ryan Hanson: I mean, clients understand very quickly, like, Is this, you know, treatment speak or, or is this something objective that we can measure and we can measure it the same way, you know, from seven different angles? Um, so, so the outcomes, Graham, that, that you mentioned, Being able to identify the objective strategies, um, as well as, you know, certainly we want somebody to feel better. Ryan Hanson: That's, that's going to be, uh, you know, uh, Well, it comes across as being more subjective. There actually are some objective ways to, to, to approach how, how we help clients and how we help ourselves as clinicians take a look at our is what we're doing with this client. This individual client. Is it effective? Ryan Hanson: Then we can start [00:25:00] talking about how to design studies and, and, and do some of the other stuff. I'm. Okay. Secretly, I'm a statistics nerd. Um, I was, uh, uh, uh, stats T. A. In my undergraduate career. Um, and, and, and it's actually influenced just about everything I've done in my career because I want somebody to be able to know for sure. Ryan Hanson: And I want us, I would like knowing for sure that something had the effect that we wanted it to have, not because of 27 commingled factors, um, which is actually how life works, but that, you know, we gave this particular medication and 3 days after and And ever since I've had a different experience in the way that I approached the world, uh, I, you know, I, I had my brain mapped and we started doing [00:26:00] some, some neuro rehab services. Ryan Hanson: And since that has happened, I now feel less angry, or I feel less triggered in certain circumstances. Those things are measurable, um, both from a subjective and objective standpoint, um, and. Ryan Hanson: I'm always excited when, when, you know, individual providers and, and, uh, academics and science, you know, works together because I, I, you know, I'll use an example like a biometric, uh, tool that it's not medical grade, but it starts to provide information that I can use. Uh, to potentially change behavior, improve, improve health and wellness, improve, uh, you know, connection. Ryan Hanson: That stuff's cool. And, and, [00:27:00] and. It produces real change that people can see and Graham Doerge: you're referring to, uh, like using a whoop band or something like that with your biometrics and, um, and kind of tracking sleep and, you know, recovery and all that type of thing. Ryan Hanson: Exactly. And, and, and there's some. So new new companies that have come into the market that have that are producing medical grade measurements. Ryan Hanson: Um, you know, the FDA approved. And so what what starts to happen is where before this was seen as kind of a pseudo piece of information, it's now actually real information that We as health care professionals can be including in fact should be including when we're looking at the overall, you know, sense of wellness. Ryan Hanson: Uh, and, and, and, and, you know, if [00:28:00] someone is telling us, you know, I, I started my career, you know, 22, 23 years ago and, and clients would say, well, I'm not sleeping. Yeah, and, you know, the overnight staff at the facility would say every time I check on them, there's so we have this immediate discrepancy about the experience can actually be pretty objectively measured today, you know, whether, whether it's, you know, uh, The mattress that can measure movement and or the app that can be put on the bedside table that that measures, you know, sound and and and breathing throughout the night or or, you know, a wearable biometric that, you know, is measuring what some of the heart rate is like all of those things can give us an objective piece of information to understand is this person. Ryan Hanson: I. Thank you. You know, do they, do they have sleep apnea and so their experience of their sleep, they're exhausted, even though they were in [00:29:00] bed for 10 hours, um, that's going to affect every other decision, uh, that they're trying to make at a critical time when, when they know they have things that, that, that need to, to happen for them. Dr. Harold Hong: So use, you've integrated wearables and biometrics into the treatment plan for the client work. Ryan Hanson: Yes, yes. Uh, and, and, and it gives it's one tool that we can use for a variety of individuals. But again, if, if someone is opposed to it, if someone says, I don't think that's my issue, you know, we're going to find some other creative ways to, to, to think about how, how can we, how can we help confirm for you that what you wanted to do is happening? Ryan Hanson: How can, how can we, how can we measure Your wellness in 50 different dimensions. You know, that, that's [00:30:00] not always going to be a biometric wearable. That could be, could be a whole bunch of things, but being creative that way and helping, helping to, to do it in a way that the client can accept it and own it and use it and benefit from it. Ryan Hanson: That's, that's what we're after. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Super interesting. I've been, I've been messing around with Apple watch and whoop. And, uh, Justin's been talking, making the aura ring. Do you have any preferences for like which platform you think works best for this type of consulting Ryan Hanson: work? Well, I think some of it depends on what, uh, what the issue is. Ryan Hanson: Um, but in general, our society is sleep deprived. So, you know, it's the fact, you know, sleep, food, water. Connection shelter sex, like there's some foundational pieces and and sleep affects everything. Yeah, absolutely everything. So, so, so I don't particularly care if [00:31:00] someone I don't have a particular preference around which. Ryan Hanson: Biometric wearable someone uses as long as they'll use it. Right? So, you know, the, the, the, you know, the rings generally are less intrusive. People don't take them off as often. They tend, you know, they tended that therefore get used a little more consistently, um, that whatever will reduce the barrier and keep the progress moving forward. Ryan Hanson: Right. That's what I prefer. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I've been really impressed with the accuracy of these, these wearables. Um, so I started using the Apple watch, uh, sleep tracking. And I honestly think that the American sleep association, like they're getting close to endorsing it as like fairly accurate, uh, because it can tell you how much time you spend in light sleep. Dr. Harold Hong: slow wave sleep and REM and, and people are really [00:32:00] seeing correlations. Oh, if I had a drink at dinner or if I had two cocktails, my REM sleep, uh, like plummeted, uh, my, my slow wave sleep also plummeted. And, you know, that's why I feel so crummy. In the morning, just like so unrested and then that, that is like a very powerful motivation for people to like optimize their daytime activities and they're seeing all these new connections. Dr. Harold Hong: And I think that's wonderful that people can understand their bodies more, more correctly, more, more clearly, uh, because without these insights, they're just kind of going on their gut reaction. And a lot of times we're just miscalibrated. Ryan Hanson: Yeah, I agree. And I helping individuals to become their own advocates, helping individuals to become more informed health care decision makers in a variety of ways. Ryan Hanson: It has to be personal. Like, good general information is nice, but most of us are smart [00:33:00] enough. Or egotistical enough that, that we can, we can talk away logical information, but as you pointed out, the second that somebody points out to me that if I have a drink later in the evening, I don't sleep as well. Ryan Hanson: It's that simple. But, but it's that important that, uh, that that person. Can use their information. It's not just general information about alcohol later in the day. It could affect your sleep. It's when I have a drink or when, you know, in my case, when I eat, you know, the bowl of ice cream at 9 p. m. I'm not going to sleep as well. Ryan Hanson: It's obvious, but. You know, and, and, and individuals, you know, again, in that example, it doesn't mean I'm not going to do it, but at least the next day, I'm not blaming it on something else. I can, I can have some accountability around it and I can make some decisions about what I'm going to do [00:34:00] now in order to, to feel better in a more sustainable way. Ryan Hanson: Yep. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Um, so how does it, how does the client's level of readiness to change affect the tailoring of the treatment plan? Ryan Hanson: So I. I think, Graham, we're always looking for how can we, how can we be collaborative and invitational? And the person who says, you know, I'm, I'm never going to a 12 step meeting. You know, whether, you know, if they're one of their issues is, is, you know, substance use disorder. Ryan Hanson: I'm not starting with the fight, you know, I'll start with tell me, tell me what you want to accomplish and tell me what you think you're willing to do today. We'll start there. We'll start there. It doesn't mean that that's, you know, where we're ending, but in [00:35:00] general, We're trying to help individuals lower resistance that doesn't generally happen with a, with a full frontal assault. Ryan Hanson: Um, so especially, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I was Graham Doerge: going to say, especially with the clientele that you're working with, right? Is, is, you know, mostly, you know, high profile, high net worth families and people of that sort who are coming to you with a very different perspective than most people, right? And, um... Graham Doerge: And it's hard to sometimes get them to make that shift because they do what they want, you know, and there's not a whole lot holding them back. Ryan Hanson: And many times, uh, the system that they've created around them supports their, that thinking and that decision making and that, that level of, of, uh, uh, ability to, to, to chart their own course. Ryan Hanson: Um, so. So [00:36:00] telling someone, here's what you need to do, um, you know, there are moments where that can work, but most of the time it really is a, you know, we're, we're here to work together now and, and, and you're telling me you're not happy about something I'm going to throw out, maybe it's connected to this, if you want to prove me wrong, that's awesome. Ryan Hanson: I'm good with that. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Curious what are some things Versions of success that you're seeing and, and the ways in which they are structurally, not anywhere close to the idea of being successful. So for example, you could have a very successful executive in the conventional idea, so they're C suite, a very high net worth individual, but profoundly depressed and disconnected. Dr. Harold Hong: And they might be surprised that they've been on the happiness treadmill [00:37:00] for decades. They got the promotion, they got the title, and there's not much further left to go on the treadmill, and now they're at the cliff's edge. And what does that moment look like for people, and how would you help them explore the idea of success all over again? Ryan Hanson: We, uh, I'm so glad you asked that question because that is our client probably 50 percent of the time and so successful that they don't know anything else and the narrative that they walk around with is, I have to be whatever. I have to succeed at this level. Um, and, and it. And it, despite their enormous level of success, it has limited them in their [00:38:00] options and their, and their ability to, to be happy. Ryan Hanson: Um, because the narrative says, I'm, I'm happy when I am the best in my industry. I'm happy as to when I am running 12 companies. I'm happiest when, you know, I own 14 homes. I'm ha And those aren't the things making them happy. Yeah. You know, so, so redefining success, redefining meaning, uh, and helping to find that, you know, passion and purpose, like, that's actually how I got into some of the, the career counseling and executive coaching components was Working with people and feeling like I needed to expand my ability to help them explore success in a new way and find new ways to define what the next chapter of their life could be without [00:39:00] being held back by What some of the six, you know, by all accounts, successful chapters at the beginning of the book have been so that that it's so powerful to watch when, when, when somebody finds the next passionate experience that is completely outside what they thought it was going to be like, it just, it's, it's, it's that moment. Ryan Hanson: And we've all seen it with clients where they're like, Oh my goodness. I could be doing this. I, you know, and, and, uh, you know, I, I've, I've had it happen in my career, those moments where like, well, wait a minute, what, why, why does technology now, you know, I have a master's degree in counseling. Well, what do I really need to know about technology? Ryan Hanson: And all of a sudden you find out, like, there's this, this thread that once you start pulling on, it's like, [00:40:00] Oh, this could do so much. Right. And, and, and that's the moment that we want for our clients. Yeah. Love that. It's awesome. Graham Doerge: And I think too, with those really high functioning, uh, individuals, you know, a lot of times what happens is they've got that thing that's, that's. Graham Doerge: You know, keeping them in their routine. That's keeping their life together. They've got people that to answer to, and then maybe they retire and that all changes, right? They're all of a sudden they're at home. They're, you know, with, with the family, a whole lot more, not a lot on their plate. And before they know it, they didn't have a problem before. Graham Doerge: And now all of a sudden they're drinking three bottles of wine all day long. Right. So, um, it's interesting Ryan Hanson: or their spouses because they're home all day. A hundred Graham Doerge: percent. So, and I actually went through kind of a little bit of that as a, as the son, right? My dad worked on Wall Street forever and, uh, retired when I was in, you know, pretty, pretty early and I was in the seventh grade. Graham Doerge: So it went from like, you know, he was working a lot of my, my childhood to all of a sudden he was [00:41:00] home all the time. And, you know, we have a great relationship now, but at that time I was already using drugs. You know, and I was already on my way and, you know, we were not seeing eye to eye, you know, at that point in our lives and struggled a lot. Graham Doerge: I'm sure he, you know, struggled a lot with me, um, and what I put him through. But yeah, it's just interesting to see how that dynamic shifts with these high functioning people in the, in the family system, you know. Ryan Hanson: Mm hmm. And retirement can be one of the triggers for that. Um, but again, talk about some individuals who've written some really amazing first chapters. Ryan Hanson: So they create the multi million or multi billion dollar business. Yeah. And then they sell it. Now, and the what next, what next can be a very daunting moment? Graham Doerge: 100%. Yeah. That's scary because you're just, you're always achieving and, and, you know, if you don't have that, that next thing that you're looking towards, people fall apart a lot of times because you've been so [00:42:00] trained for that. Graham Doerge: So Dr. Harold Hong: we live in a tough society, um, we can know what it means to succeed in a role, but no one's actually talking about what it means to be a human beneath all of that. Until they start working with people like you, Ryan. Right, Ryan Hanson: right. Well, thank you, thank you. Um, but, but, but to your point, Doctor, like the are we human beings or are we human doings? Ryan Hanson: And, and in most cases we're a combination and it's, it's finding that alignment for each of us at different points in our life because it changes. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I think it's just so important for families and this is why we wanted to have folks like you on here for families to understand that there are other resources out there. Graham Doerge: You know, uh, please, please, you know, reach out to, to people like Ryan or ourselves to, you know, just to have that conversation about, you know, what do we do in this, in this [00:43:00] situation? And um, You know, we, we are very happy to be working with you guys, collaborating with you guys on a lot of stuff. Um, is there anything that you wanted to plug, uh, maybe your website at the least and maybe some social media? Ryan Hanson: Um, I, I'd rather plug you guys, uh, because in, in general, the clients who come to find us come through other people that we trust or other people that we've worked with. And so, you know, we're, we're, we're not. We have a website. We actually don't push our website. We don't really push social media. Um, and, and, and that's purposeful. Ryan Hanson: You know, we, we, we aren't trying to be the biggest. We're trying to really be thoughtful and intentional, uh, so that we can do our very best work. Um, so I, you know, Trifecta. com is, is, or [00:44:00] sorry, trifecta. life is the website, but, uh, I, I, I'd rather have somebody, if, if they think they, that we can benefit them, I'd rather just have them give me a call and have a conversation. Ryan Hanson: Yeah. Love it. Graham Doerge: So trifecta. life, uh, Mr. Ryan Hanson, such a pleasure connecting with you today. Um, and we look forward to seeing you again in person soon. Ryan Hanson: I'm, I'm excited to come up and see you guys very, very shortly. So thank you for having me today. Thanks, Ryan. Show Notes In this enlightening episode, we introduce you to our distinguished guest, Ryan Hanson, a trailblazer in the field of behavioral healthcare. With over two decades of experience, Ryan's journey has been a harmonious blend of clinical expertise, research acumen, and visionary organizational leadership. His unwavering commitment to authentic and compassionate communication has not only transformed lives within multiple organizations but has also been a driving force in elevating team morale, productivity, and loyalty. Ryan's therapeutic prowess is extensive, encompassing a wide spectrum of specialties, including sexual health, grief and loss, career development, addiction, mental health, and process-driven disorders. What sets his approach apart is its holistic nature, addressing the entirety of an individual's experience and offering a comprehensive path to healing and balance. But Ryan's contributions extend beyond clinical practice. He possesses a remarkable talent for innovative program development, fueled by creativity, data-driven decision-making, and best practices. Throughout his career, he has successfully crafted sustainable and profitable programs across diverse settings, from start-ups to not-for-profit centers and large healthcare corporations. His deep understanding of business extends to areas such as board management, state licensure, program accreditation, and facility oversight. In addition to his role at Trifecta, Ryan has held executive and C-suite positions, most recently as Chief Strategy Officer for an innovative start-up. Here, he helped individuals rediscover their passion and purpose through a therapeutic balance with screens and technology. His responsibilities encompassed operationalizing multi-state, multi-site residential centers, fostering partnerships with local, state, and national entities, developing accredited educational and research training programs, and advancing key strategic market initiatives. Outside his professional life, Ryan finds balance and inspiration in his family, including his husband and daughter. Together, they share a love for reading, travel, gardening, science, dance, and movies. Loyalty, creativity, the power of the present moment, and compassionate connection guide Ryan's path in every facet of his life. Join us in this captivating conversation as we delve into the multifaceted world of mental health, redefine success, and embark on a transformative journey toward self-discovery. Don't miss this opportunity to chart your course towards well-being and rediscover your true passions. For more insights and information on Ryan's remarkable work, visit trifecta.life. Tune in to "Finding New Waters," where we explore the depths of what it means to be human and discover new paths to fulfillment and success. 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In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. < Back to Episodes Sam Quinones: The Stories Behind America’s Drug Epidemic 1:07:22 min | Sam Quinones | Finding New Waters In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. From the rise of prescription painkillers and black tar heroin to the impact of fentanyl and methamphetamine, Sam highlights the systemic and personal forces driving addiction. This conversation is packed with insights into the power of storytelling, the importance of connection, and the role of hope in combating one of the most significant public health crises of our time. Subscribe “Addiction is a story of disconnection, but recovery is a story of hope, resilience, and rebuilding community.” – Sam Quinones Show Notes In this eye-opening episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland* and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. From the rise of prescription painkillers and black tar heroin to the impact of fentanyl and methamphetamine, Sam highlights the systemic and personal forces driving addiction. This conversation is packed with insights into the power of storytelling, the importance of connection, and the role of hope in combating one of the most significant public health crises of our time. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming Sam Quinones and diving into his career as a journalist and author. - **[03:00] Early Career and Investigative Journalism**: How Sam’s work in Mexico shaped his understanding of the drug trade. - **[09:00] The Birth of *Dreamland***: Exploring the evolution of the opioid crisis, from prescription painkillers to black tar heroin. - **[15:00] Synthetic Drugs and *The Least of Us***: The rise of fentanyl and methamphetamine and their devastating societal impact. - **[22:00] Addiction and Isolation**: How the disconnection in modern society fuels substance use disorders. - **[30:00] Community Repair**: Highlighting stories of resilience and local solutions to addiction. - **[38:00] The Perfect Tuba**: A sneak peek into Sam’s upcoming book and its lessons on creativity, discipline, and recovery. - **[45:00] Closing Reflections**: Sam’s message of hope and advice for listeners. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **The Evolution of Addiction**: Understanding the shift from plant-based drugs to synthetic substances like fentanyl and methamphetamine. 2. **Systemic Failures**: How pharmaceutical companies, the healthcare system, and organized crime fueled the opioid epidemic. 3. **The Power of Storytelling**: Sam’s unique approach to capturing the human side of the addiction crisis. 4. **Hope and Connection**: Why community engagement is essential to recovery and rebuilding lives. 5. **Creative Inspiration**: How Sam’s journalistic curiosity continues to drive his work on addiction and societal repair. --- ### Guest Bio: **Sam Quinones** **Award-Winning Journalist, Author, and Chronicler of America’s Drug Crisis** Sam Quinones is an American journalist and the author of four narrative nonfiction books, including the National Book Critics Circle Award-winning *Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic* and its follow-up, *The Least of Us: True Tales of America and Hope in the Time of Fentanyl and Meth*. With decades of investigative reporting, Sam has become a leading voice on the opioid epidemic, uncovering the systemic causes behind addiction and highlighting stories of resilience and recovery. A former reporter for the *Los Angeles Times*, Sam has written for outlets like *National Geographic*, *The Atlantic*, and *The New York Times*. Through his work, he continues to inspire change, emphasizing the role of community and connection in combating addiction. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Sam Quinones’ Website:** [https://www.samquinones.com](https://www.samquinones.com) - **Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic (Book):** [https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/)(https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/)) - **The Least of Us (Book):** [https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/)(https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/)) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** [https://www.aa.org](https://www.aa.org) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) #SamQuinones #DreamlandBook #TheLeastOfUs #OpioidCrisis #AddictionRecovery #FentanylCrisis #FindingNewWatersPodcast

Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, podcast hosts and private practice professionals, discuss addiction and mental health complexities, exploring the sober curious movement and the importance of a health and wellness-focused approach to substance abuse < Back to Episodes Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Redefining Sobriety 43:35 min | Robbie & Patrick | Finding New Waters In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters, host B. Reeves sits down with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, the hosts of the popular podcast Champagne Problems. Together, they dive deep into the world of addiction, wellness, and recovery, discussing how substance use can impact various aspects of life such as sleep, work productivity, and relationships. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "If alcohol never existed and it came out today. It would be a schedule one controlled substance." Patrick Balsley Podcast Transcript #007 Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Patrick Balsley: [00:00:00] Addiction is like the biggest public health crisis ever. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, right. You know, cause connected to our phone. Yeah. All Patrick Balsley: the cardiovascular stuff, all that stuff. It's all addiction. Yeah. All addiction Robbie Shaw: related. B. Reeves: Do y'all, in your work and through the podcast, maybe tangentially work with people or who have more process addiction, phone shopping, gaming? Robbie Shaw: I don't think that's as common to admit these days, and I don't think people think of it as, An acute issue. Right. I mean, it's, it's something that we've yet to see what its long-term effects are. You know, I mean, we're starting to see it in kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, anxiety and depression, you know, I mean, so partially, I mean, I think in the work that we do in knowing that, especially, especially cuz we, Patrick and I both work. Robbie Shaw: More in the holistic space, kind of looking at the entire wellness spectrum and, and screen time is absolutely one of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so we, [00:01:00] you know, we certainly talk about that and nutrition and, you know, exercise and all those things, but especially when you're talking with kids. But, but it's the same, same thing goes with like parenting. Robbie Shaw: I mean, it's like, You know, I was constantly telling my daughter to get off her phone while I'm on my phone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. B. Reeves: Welcome to Finding New Watchers. Our goal in creating Finding New Watchers is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. B. Reeves: We hope to shed [00:02:00] some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Well, I am, uh, very honored and privileged to be sitting here today. For this episode of Finding New Waters with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Bosley, they're the hosts of Champagne Problems, the number one rated podcast by Charlotte Magazine. B. Reeves: Um, I, uh, I've actually known Robbie for, since I was 10 years old, and Patrick, just for the last about three years, um, working in this industry and we're so honored and, and excited to have them here today. And we're not just gonna talk about what they do with their podcast. We do wanna talk about that, but also what they. B. Reeves: Outside and what they do for you, they're their day-to-day and, um, how they ended up where they are in terms of recovery and all that kind of stuff, so. Mm. Um, got three or four hours. Yeah, we do. You just said you had to be back by dinner, right? Robbie Shaw: That's right. 11 o'clock. That's right. All right, well, let's get going. B. Reeves: Well, um, anyway, thank y'all for being here and, uh, I'll just kind of turn it over to you for first, Ravi, [00:03:00] about what, what do you, what do you do other than, um, host champagne problems? Robbie Shaw: Well first, thanks for having me. Uh, we are equally as honored to be here with you B. Um, What do I do outside of champaign problems? Robbie Shaw: Um, I do quite a few things. Uh, I think as it relates to, you know, this conversation, I do have a private practice called even Tide Recovery, where I work as a recovery, sobriety and wellness coach. Um, That started, you know, years ago with some intervention services and now it's just kind of morphed into just doing coaching for people who are either looking to get sober, toying with it, or are sober and are looking to sustain, uh, as well as work with family members and loved ones of. Robbie Shaw: People battling, um, any level of dependence or addiction. Um, and then I also have a, a studio, an audio video production studio that we are positioning under the mental health and wellbeing space, as, you know, content creators and, and, uh, any production in that space. [00:04:00] So that is the, the gist of what I do outside of champagne problems. Robbie Shaw: Awesome. What about you? Patrick Balsley: So, um, I also have a private practice in Charlotte. It's called Sauna Counseling, and, uh, it's a group practice. I have a, a couple coaches, uh, an interventionist, um, couple therapists that work alongside me. Um, we do a lot of the same stuff Robbie does. Essentially, we serve the same population. Patrick Balsley: People that, uh, that are either in recovery or looking to be in recovery. Uh, we do a lot of pre and post what I call pre and post treatment work. Um, a lot of family coaching, a lot of craft style interventions where we kind of move families through the stages of change to get 'em where they need to be. Patrick Balsley: Um, in terms of engaging with resources, it's a lot of what we do. Um, and then families usually stick with us, so they'll go through treatment and then, you know, when they get. We usually work with the families while they're still in treatment and uh, and then when they get out and they're more [00:05:00] stabilized, uh, we can, you know, move forward from there and, uh, with a more of a long-term engagement strategy, build, build that trusting relationship. Patrick Balsley: Um, and then, um, I just opened a high-end recovery residence in South Charlotte called Sauna House. Um, it's a really small. Recovery residents, transitional living, um, program for men, uh, in early recovery. And, uh, we only have five beds and, um, it's something I've wanted to do for a really long time, so it's gonna be fun. Patrick Balsley: And then pretty heavily involved with Emerald School of Excellence, the Recovery High School in Charlotte. Big passion of mine. Um, and, uh, yeah, that's pretty much it. That's B. Reeves: awesome. I, um, you said something that I wanted to touch on, which, People who are kind of experimenting with recovery, the sober curious movement, if that's even, uh, you know, can be classified as a movement. B. Reeves: But it's something I've [00:06:00] noticed. And then when I first heard your podcast, I guess almost three years ago now, or at least two. Two, okay. Two. Yep. Um, that seemed to be kind of a, an ongoing theme, and I know it's evolved and changes and, but I, uh, I see it in my personal life and it sounds like you do too. B. Reeves: And I, you know, I wanna hear your thoughts on it too. Kind of what, what that really looks like. And, and does that ever, in your experience, turn into permanent sobriety? Robbie Shaw: Great question. So the word sober is what throws that off, right? It, it really, it's just people looking to eliminate things that are hurting them. Robbie Shaw: Right? So it's really falls under the more wellness, wellbeing space. Now, of course there's a wide range of people that might fall into this population that are exploring this stuff. So there could be people that are battling some level of addiction or dependence that sobriety might look more appealing for them. Robbie Shaw: But then I think the curious movement. You know that as, as it spreads [00:07:00] throughout the, a lot of our younger generations and a lot of our population in general is more around the wellness stuff. Just look the, the science around these substances, specifically alcohol, um, cuz that's the most widely used, you know, people are learning more and more about this stuff and they're starting to recognize that. Robbie Shaw: Their wellness strategies. Wellness goals are not being met or being altered or being influenced by something that is sold on every corner and in every household or most. And so they're just starting to say, you know, maybe this is something that's not serving me. And, and I think that is new. I think people have done that to a degree, but not in the space of alcohol. Robbie Shaw: Right. And that's the trend and that is the snowball that's ging out there. Our podcast is super excited about. I mean, we, we position ourself in the wellness space. You know, we're not, it's not about it. Are you an alcoholic? Are you an addict? Are you addicted? It's how is it affecting your sleep? Mm-hmm. Robbie Shaw: Your work productivity, your relationships, your parenting, you know, whatever else. And that way it opens it up to everybody and not just people that are potentially battling and [00:08:00] addictive behavior. Right. Substance. And I B. Reeves: think, I mean that, that news that came out pretty recently. All sorts of reports that moderate drinking is not in fact good for people. B. Reeves: No. Which have been the, uh, standard for thousands of years, I guess, Robbie Shaw: right? No, it's not. It's unfortunately it's not. I mean, you know, neither is, you know, a bag of Doritos four days a week, so, yeah. You know, we, there's relativity associated with this and we understand that we're not prohibitionist, but alcohol is, is bad for you. Robbie Shaw: No. Patrick Balsley: Bottom line. I mean, if we, if it came, if, if alcohol never existed and it came out. It would be a schedule one controlled substance. Oh yeah. It'd be illegal. Be completely illegal. Right. And it does more damage to your, you know, to your body and mind than pretty much any other drug other than probably meth. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's really bad for you. Robbie Shaw: That's not good for you. B. Reeves: Well, y'all both work with or, or between the [00:09:00] podcast and what you both do. Younger people. Not, not exclusively, but, you know, one of the things that I'm always, you know, I, I, I found recovery and got sober, you know, kind of from that average age I was 41. B. Reeves: And, um, but a lot of my friends got sober really young. And I, and I, we, I work, I used to work specifically with younger guys and, and, and women, you know, um, young adults. And just keeping them engaged. And my whole thing was always tr you know, let show people how to enjoy life. Mm-hmm. In recovery, not just tell 'em that it's possible. B. Reeves: And just wondering kind of what your experience has been like and what you would say to try to help keep younger people engaged who are who, who need to be in recovery and who are, or experimenting with it. Because, you know, they see their friends, you know, mostly not, and they, yeah. Have. Patrick Balsley: Acceptable. Yeah, I mean, I love the lens that we look at things from, you know, it's less clinical. Patrick Balsley: It's, it's more, more on the health and wellness side. I think. Um, we've done a really poor job historically of being able to articulate [00:10:00] what we're dealing with, um, and we've kind of pigeonholed into this pathological way of looking at this issue. Or pot or even a potential issue. Um, and it's stigmatizing, you know, so a lot of the young people, especially the ones that you know, may not be, you know, what we would consider. Patrick Balsley: You know, hit rock bottom or whatever, but have like some, you know, moderate consequences in their life due to their substance use. It's very difficult for them to align themselves with what we would typically call somebody with a severe substance use disorder, um, or like rob, like alcohol or alcoholic or addict. Patrick Balsley: Um, they just don't identify with that. So I think if we can aim, aim more towards articulating. Kind of dynamic in, in, in a more of a health and wellness way. They, they can roll with that. You know, it's [00:11:00] like, hey, let's, let's just take a look at how this stuff's affecting your life. Um, and not look at it more of like a, you know, from a shame, shame or guilt perspective. Patrick Balsley: Like, like what's your doing to your family? You know, it. Oh, let's, let's really do like a, like an assessment of how this is impacting you and how does it match up to your values. Like, how does this, How, how is this stopping you from getting where you want to go? And if you don't know where you want to go, let's figure that out first, you know? Patrick Balsley: Yeah. Um, Robbie Shaw: yeah. And then, and then, you know, more externally there's, there's, you know, two really big uphill battles that I think stand out and, and one is the effect of alcohol. It's, it's super effective. And, and people tend to kind of forget that or, or, or don't keep it front of mind where it's like, you know, why this, why that? Robbie Shaw: It's like, well, have you ever had a sip of alcohol? It, it works, right? It makes you feel pretty damn good. Uh, so there's [00:12:00] that. And we are creatures of, of, you know, living off reward systems and, and we like things that make us feel good and. So there's that. Secondly, it's a, it's a cultural norm. And and how do you fight that? Robbie Shaw: Yeah. I mean that's, that's the hard part is the normalization. That is like you, like you asked these kids that are just looking around and it's like, well, that's what you do to have fun. You know? That's what you do to be cool. That's what you do to act like you're famous. That's what you do to get girls, you know, that's what you do for all this stuff. Robbie Shaw: And, uh, how do you change that, you know? And, and we see it because we quit and now we can see. It's not necessary. It's not required to have fun and do all these things, but that's what you grow up seeing and thinking and, and becoming ingrained and unfor. I don't have the answer. I don't have the answer other than to just Patrick Balsley: show it. Patrick Balsley: I mean, one, one of the things that I try to do is, like I was saying, I try to get. Whoever I'm working with, cuz I work with a lot of people that are sober, precarious, that don't meet criteria for substance use disorders. Mm-hmm. But are, you know, having troubles with their relationship or [00:13:00] parenting or their, you know, got a dui and it's like, okay, now I'm starting to see a pattern here, need to get a little bit of help. Patrick Balsley: But like I, if, if you can paint a really clear picture of what you want your life to look like, like what is the ideal, you know, what do you really want, like, Really optimistically Paint that picture. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Do you wanna get drunk every night Patrick Balsley: or, yeah. And, and then, and then, and then you just, probably not you, you, you map the alcohol use on top of that and be like, is this. Patrick Balsley: Getting in the way of you reaching those goals or being that person that you want to be or being that you know dad that you want to be. And if the answer is, yeah, it is getting in the way, then that's a, it's a, it's a pretty rational way to, to look at it. And if they can see that, and that always usually develop some type of internal motivat. Patrick Balsley: No. Robbie Shaw: Oh, and sorry, but the, but the, the answers are in the results of that too, in the sense of like, when I think back to if someone were to do that kind of work with me when I was [00:14:00] 11th grade, 12th grade, what do you want? I want to be popular. I want to have the hottest girlfriend, and I want to be, you know, members of this group, and I want to go to this bar and I want to do all these things. Robbie Shaw: Like, that's what I want. What do you say to that? Patrick Balsley: I say, alright, well let's look five years further. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I wouldn't have an answer. So the, so then of course the work would be, Patrick Balsley: develop the answer. That's what we develop, you know? And then, and then we go even more macro and we say, okay, well this little vision that you have right now of what you want right now, how is it getting, how is that mapping on. Patrick Balsley: To the five year plan, right? Is you hanging out at bars with a hot girlfriend, you know, drinking every night? Is that gonna be sustainable to get you to what you want five years from now? Yeah. Yep. And Robbie Shaw: I love B. Reeves: that about just so simply just getting in the way. I mean that, yeah. When I look at my own situation, it was, you know, I, I had what would be called like a. B. Reeves: You know, a somewhat high, medium bottom, but it was more about just, it was just in the way of everything. Yeah. That was never gonna grow up. I was never gonna be [00:15:00] anything close to being successful on any level. The only way to measure any success in my life was just the number of years I've been alive. B. Reeves: And that was basically it. You know? It was just in the way. It was just in the way. Um, yeah. But these, the young guys, I, that's great. I mean, that. Love. Yeah. We Patrick Balsley: love that we sacrifice our dreams. Yeah. For, yeah. You know, for instant B. Reeves: gratification. Yep. Yeah. For sh. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I just think about you like I was had no, when people, I remember people would ask me, what do you wanna do in five years? B. Reeves: I would just laugh, you know? Robbie Shaw: Yeah, B. Reeves: this, yeah. I don't want to know. I li I let, Robbie Shaw: right. I don't wanna think about that. Yeah. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. One of the things too that I always tell people, it's like, stay present, man. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that really one of the main organic. Sources of positive emotion is moving towards something that we value and it's actually the process of moving towards like a target, right. Patrick Balsley: That is meaningful to [00:16:00] us. And it is like the, the, you know, the joys and the journey. Like that's actually true. Mm-hmm. And that's really the only thing that provides us with real, like healthy, positive emotion. Yeah. Is, is moving towards that. Um, and if we. No. What we're moving towards or we don't even have a target. Patrick Balsley: You're just like, it's meaningless. Yeah. But not, not only that, like you will end up being a victim of our society and like all the information that we're just getting bombarded with constantly of you, you know, you're not good enough. You know, here's something to make you feel better. Mm-hmm. You know, drink this, wear this, buy this, drive this. Patrick Balsley: You gotta have this. Yeah. And I mean that, you know, that's how. How everything is is so our economy's driven. Yeah. When I was, go ahead. Yeah, no, I mean, if you don't have that target to, to, to kind of [00:17:00] overcome every, all the pressures around you, your B. Reeves: toast. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean the, the trigger part of all this, I remember I, when I was in treatment, we had this lesson on what are, what are triggers? B. Reeves: And it was like, Hmm. Bars. Okay. Obviously, Parties. Okay. Obviously restaurants. All right, weddings, all right. And then it was like ATMs, exit ramps. I was like, okay. So literally everything, just gas, gas station bathrooms. Yeah. I mean, it kind of helped in a way that I just, on the spot was like, all right, so everything's gonna be a trigger. B. Reeves: So maybe nothing can be a trigger, but, you know, it's, it's not that simple. But, you know, when I'm spiritually fit, nothing is a trigger. But if, but if I'm not, then it is. But I was thinking about something I noticed when y'all first started. When you first started, uh, champagne problem. A lot of talk about just, you know, being everywhere, coming from all angles like we're talking about now. B. Reeves: But yesterday I was creating, uh, an, an invite for, um, I won't say the name of the, you know, the, an online, um, invitation generator, [00:18:00] um, for an alumni event we're having in May. And just the options to choose. They have hundreds of 'em. Oh, I'll Patrick Balsley: sit on that damn thing for like six, 106 hours. B. Reeves: 80 of 200 options have alcohol already. B. Reeves: Oh. You know, it's a template on the card, you know, bubbles, sip and see and bump and just literally everything. And it really made me think about kind of the, the early days least of champagne problems where just, it's just everywhere and it it, and it is, and I know, you know, just kind of. Learning to navigate that and understanding that. B. Reeves: And then kind of to your point a second ago, that all these things, whether it's the woman, whether it's beer, whether it's drugs, whether it's um, you know, promotion, just understand that, that this is all an inside job and none and all these external factors are all kind of, they're just external. You know, we're, we gotta learn how to be happy from Patrick Balsley: the inside out. Patrick Balsley: It's a dream killer man. I mean, it really is like, the way that you just described that, it made, it made me think about like how many people, and we don't just, we don't just do it with alcohol, we do it with any, anything. Sure. That's gonna make us feel better and [00:19:00] help us check out. But like we go to work or we have, you know, we have these daily stressors or these things that we think about that we want, or these things that we think about that we're not satisfied with in our life that we want to change. Patrick Balsley: Yep. And then we go home and we drink a couple glasses of. Or eat a big ass steak and we forget about it for the day. Mm-hmm. And then we wake up the next morning and we do the same damn thing and we do it every single day. And at the end of the day, instead of, you know, kind of letting this build and be like, I need to do something about this. Patrick Balsley: I need to change this in my life. We just drown it out. We just suppress it day after day after day after day until we, you know, steps. Heart attack or, yeah, it's, we're 75 and we're angry and divorced and B. Reeves: Right. It comes up, you know, Patrick Balsley: out, boy. B. Reeves: Yeah. And I mean, I do a lot of, um, you know, my job here, I do [00:20:00] most of the pre-admissions and you know, one of the questions we ask every single person is, do you drink or, or use to relieve mental health symptoms and whether it's anxiety or depression, or whatever it is. B. Reeves: And the answer is always yes. And then the answer is almost always, it's always something, um, along these lines to drown out. To not think about my problems, because that's how it is. Relieve stress. Yeah. And just, but like, we're just stuffing it down for the day. Yeah. Good. Every day it just avoiding it. B. Reeves: Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not going away. No. It's not going. I tried that. You know what? It doesn't work. Robbie Shaw: It doesn't, it doesn't work. It's amazing. It comes up and comes out in some way, shape or form. Yeah. And for a long time you can, you know, a lot of us can manage it. Yeah. You know, we can, uh, We can deal or we can set our standards right where they need to be. Robbie Shaw: Right. And may and, oh, I function, I function perfectly well because I do this, this, and this. Patrick Balsley: But I, I think what we're starting to figure out, Like, at least scientifically is that that all, all the, [00:21:00] that emotional discord and disconnect that, that we're drowning out is staying stuck in our body and it's manifesting itself and all kinds of totally physical health problems. Patrick Balsley: I mean, sure. Robbie Shaw: Well then you, I mean, try being a parent, right? Mm-hmm. And a, and a, a loving, supportive, healthy husband. I mean, that, that stuff doesn't come, you can't do all that when you've got turmoil going on inside of you. Yeah. You know, and then your kids all messed up and, oh, I can't figure out why. Patrick Balsley: It's tough, man. Patrick Balsley: And you deal with it for 30 minutes and then, you know, then drown yourself in booze for the rest of the night. You know? Yeah, that's B. Reeves: right. So what do you, what do you say, you know, to, especially to parents, you know what I mean? A big thing we talk about here a lot, especially on the podcast, we talk about it all day at work too, is, I mean, what I, you know, the biggest challenge we see with families is creating of and sticking to boundaries. B. Reeves: Mm-hmm. Which seems, you know, super obvious and I mean, because it's true and it is. But, uh, what else would y'all say, just in terms of, you know, with to [00:22:00] speaking to families, About their loved one and how they can best handle, and I don't just mean getting them into treatment, but just, you know, lovingly working to help them get better, you know? Robbie Shaw: Yeah. Patrick and I talked a little bit about this on the way up because it's, as you know, there is no simple answer to that. Right. And as much as we would love to just have a, here's what you do, every situation's different. Yep. Every parent is different, every family system is different every. Dependence or addiction to a substance or a behavior is different. Robbie Shaw: So it's, it's really hard to pinpoint a very, a generalized direction for that. Um, that being said, now what, what can you do, you know, initially, um, and we, we, you know, we had this talk with the, uh, church group recently, and, and a lot of kids were asking this, and a lot of parents were asking that, and it's, you know, the first answer was like, reach out for. Robbie Shaw: Yeah. Bottom line, like number one. Yeah, that's the most, do not try to [00:23:00] figure it out yourself. Do not just try things and do things based on how you think and feel in a moment. Like, seek out a professional and get some guidance. A good professional, Patrick Balsley: a good one. All right, and that, that, that's also. One of the issues too is that people go on Google, oh my God. Patrick Balsley: And they, you know, or they get caught up with some snake oil salesman, or, or, or even just somebody that doesn't, I mean, that's really trying to be good and has good intentions, but they really don't know what they're talking about and they get bad advice. Yeah. Um, or it's like, You know, oh, well my, my son struggled with this and this is what we did, and this is the treatment that we got him, so it's gotta be the right one for you. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. You know, and they're, they're not doing it intentionally, but I mean, you really need to have a good, you know, mental health professional that can do a really good assessment, um, and really gather all the information before any recommendations are made. I mean, that's, that is key. Well, Robbie Shaw: and. [00:24:00] You know, to get into the kind of details of that answer of the question is really around, like you said, all, all of the details. Robbie Shaw: And so what they're gonna try to figure out and what the parents need to know is that they need to educate themselves. Yeah. Uh, on the situation, the substance, the behavior, all of that. But also they've gotta do some work. Yeah. Because this is a system and you're the parent. Mm-hmm. And this is, You know, you need to go do this. Robbie Shaw: You need to go do that because you're doing this and that. It's what, what can I do? Mm-hmm. What am I doing? What's going on with me that's causing potentially some of this stuff? And what, what changes can I make? I mean, I use the example just in the sense of a marriage. Um, you know, how do you make a marriage work? Robbie Shaw: Well, it's it's not about. Letting the other person, uh, know what they need to do to change. It's doing what you need to do to be good with yourself in order to be there for the other one. And it just, yeah, I mean, it's like, it's B. Reeves: the same thing with parents, the [00:25:00] same thing as we're talking about with the external factors. B. Reeves: Yeah. With the, you know, the drugs and alcohol and food and whatever, and women and whatever it is. You know, even if that person's not the one who needs. Um, recovery or, or treatment. You know, we gotta, everybody's gotta do his or own her own Robbie Shaw: work, you know? Right. Yeah. I mean, how can you give, how can your child, um, trust you, believe you, you know, feel the love, feel the support. Robbie Shaw: Take the advice, take the guidance If you're not coming from an authentic place mm-hmm. Because you're out of touch with your own. Yeah. Right. They, they sense that when it comes Patrick Balsley: to boundaries too, I mean, that's really tricky and it's really individualized. So there's not, like, there's a big difference between understanding boundaries and understanding your boundaries. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Because if they're not your boundaries, you're not, you're, you're, you're not gonna be able to, they're not gonna be sustainable over time. Mm-hmm. Like I can tell a parent, [00:26:00] Hey, you gotta do this. And they may do it once. But it's like, hold on a second. I'm not ready to do that yet. Mm-hmm. You know, I can't set that boundary every day. Patrick Balsley: Right. And B. Reeves: then if they do it at once and then cave, Patrick Balsley: then, then, then, yeah. So I mean, that's why it's real. That's why it's different. It's different for every family. It's different for every parent. It's different for every situation. And I think that's kind of the message that that gets convoluted sometimes in terms of our field. Patrick Balsley: Um, where we have a very, you know, that idea of codependency and you're an enabler and you know, you just gotta do this and your kid will get better. It's like they can't do that. Mm-hmm. It's the same thing. It's like, it's the same dynamic of like telling a, telling a person that's addicted to drugs, like just to stop using. Patrick Balsley: It's the same, it's the same thing. Yeah. You know, just kick 'em out of the house. Yeah. Just kick 'em out of the house. Yeah. Yeah. That's easy. Yeah. Okay. The kid. That I love to death, but I, I think we don't talk about that as much as we should. [00:27:00] And, and it's very difficult for family members to figure out their own boundaries without the help of like a really good therapist or really good health professional. Patrick Balsley: And in order to figure out. Your own boundary. I mean, that takes some time and that's why I tell, I'm like, everybody should go to therapy. Yeah. Every single person in that family system ought to have a therapist that they're seeing and not to get advice, not for the therapist to tell 'em what to do. It's for them to build a healthy relationship with that therapist so they can figure out what their boundaries actually are. Patrick Balsley: That's, you know, it's B. Reeves: key. Yeah. So we have this new podcast here and it's inf. I know we've talked about this a little bit before, but will you just talk about the genesis of champagne problems? You know where it is now compared to where it came Patrick Balsley: from. Sure. It was my idea. Sure. Robbie Shaw: I gotta tell a funny story. Robbie Shaw: We went to [00:28:00] Florida and Patrick introduced me to somebody he knew and he goes, this is Robbie, he's on my podcast. I don't think he knew he did it and he didn't mean to, but I was like, oh, okay. I've meant to do that. It was hilarious. I don't remember that at all. Um, so yeah. So the, uh, It started with me wanting to write a book. Robbie Shaw: So alcohol has been a part. I say this all the time, alcohol's been a part of my life since the day I was born. And my mom hates hearing this story and she won't watch this, so it doesn't matter. But my dad was wasted on the night that I was born, and so he didn't make it to the, to my birth. I think he was at a Carolina State game. Robbie Shaw: Uh, and that's always been a funny story and all that, but honestly, it's a. Hurtful. Um, but you know, so from day one, alcohol has influenced me in some way. Then of course, I grew up in a very alcoholic household. I became addicted to alcohol. Now I'm in recovery, and then I studied it. Now I work in the field. Robbie Shaw: You know, it's just been a part of my life [00:29:00] from day one to today and. That doesn't make me unique. Um, but it does give me some passion around wanting people to know what I know. And I think a lot of that comes from working in this field and seeing so many people and families and, and things just destroyed by it. Robbie Shaw: And not that that's what happens to everybody that drinks, but it does happen to a lot of people and it just really, uh, pulls up my heartstrings. And so I thought if I could write a. Kind of sharing everything I've learned throughout all of my years and all that kind of, are we allowed to cuss all your wisdom? Robbie Shaw: Wisdom? We are. I think so. Do y'all cuss on this thing? Sure. Patrick Balsley: Probably not. We can edit it out. We can bleep it. Robbie Shaw: All right. I'll say bs. All that kind of, so all that, all that. Whatever. Um, And so I wanted to write this book. And so I, uh, started trying, uh, I'm not very good at sitting down and writing a book, it turns [00:30:00] out. Robbie Shaw: So somebody was like, eh, nobody's gonna buy it anyway because nobody knows you and this thank you, but, uh, okay. And they were like, you need to find a following, you know, write a blog, do a podcast. And I was like, Boom. I wanna do a podcast. Asked another friend of mine if he wanted to sit in my living room, a guy in recovery with me, and we were just like, man, let's just shoot the breeze. Robbie Shaw: You know, just talk about this stuff and just start talking about alcohol and just kind of what we've learned and you know, lots of insight and experience and wisdom and all this stuff. And he said no. Uh, and, and so I just didn't know what I was gonna do other than I wanted to do this. And Patrick and I had been introduced, you know, via like Instagram through one of our friends. Robbie Shaw: I think we even followed each other because we had both been told a number of times that we needed to meet each other, but we're both. Pretty stubborn and never really reached out to do it despite being told we needed to. And we just kind of like fi kind of watched each other from a distance. And then one day, I don't know what happened, one of us reached out and was like, man, let's grab some lunch. Robbie Shaw: We're, you know, it seems like we're supposed to do this. [00:31:00] And we did and we hit it off and we, um, You know, we've been in love ever since. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's been very, Patrick Balsley: I wanna, I, I wanna know who that first guy was. I never Robbie Shaw: heard that story. I don't know. There was somebody, I never told Patrick Balsley: somebody before me that Robbie Shaw: denied you. Robbie Shaw: Well, so we sat down at lunch and, uh, and I started talking about the way that I think about alcohol and the way that I feel like the, our society and culture thinks about it, and how there's just this terrible disconnect that's deserving so many. And Patrick's like, yep, yep, yep. He's like, all right, so I've got a podcast I want to do. Robbie Shaw: Would you be a guest on it? He's like, of course. Of course. And so that's how we started and, and we finish up lunch and we drive off and within 30 seconds I text him. I was like, How about co-host? And he is like, yep. And it just kinda went from there. Um, and so we just started talking about it and thinking about it, and we ended up, you know, getting production crew and, and it really just expanded. Robbie Shaw: But, you know, the, the, the value in, in telling all this is [00:32:00] really about the mission and how. Created the mission was a, was around everything we talked about at, at the beginning of this conversation in that we didn't want to talk about alcohol with shaming, with labels, with, in the, in the realm of addiction. Robbie Shaw: And, and do you have a problem? Because we knew that we weren't gonna reach a lot of people doing it that way. Nobody wants to be, have their finger pointed out. And that's, and whether we're doing that or not, that's what it feels like. Mm-hmm. When all you do is talk bad about alcohol. So we were like, Let's find a different way to talk about it. Robbie Shaw: What if we talk about it kind of through a wellness lens and then it's just like, Hey, yeah, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but here's the science and does this apply to you? And maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. And that's how we started it off. And it worked. It worked. People listen. Love it. It's crazy. I wanna hear your version of this. Patrick Balsley: Yeah, well, I cleaned up with everything. I, no, Robbie pays me reverse the roll small fee so he can pretend [00:33:00] it's his. Um, no, yeah, I mean, that was all right on. Um, yeah, I mean, this has been super cool. It was like, one of the things when I, when Robbie texted me and was like, Hey, will you be a co-host? I was like, you know, yeah. Patrick Balsley: And I, I. Expect it to, you know, move as fast as it did. It was like, you know, two weeks later we're in a damn studio with a production crew and there's cameras in our faces, our roll. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, dude. Um, so yeah, it, it's, it's been really neat to kinda. And, and thank God for Robbie and the rest of the team, cuz I don't do anything except really show up and, and, and talk. Patrick Balsley: I mean, they do all the back end stuff and take care of all the marketing and production and all that. So it's been very, very, I've had a really easy, easy ride. Yeah. Um, but it's just been awesome to be a part of it and. You know, I feel like, I feel like we've, we've touched a lot of people that, that wouldn't, [00:34:00] um, wouldn't have received that message otherwise. Patrick Balsley: Um, I'm, I'm very aligned with our mission and in this like, more inclusive way to look at this. Um, cuz I've always been kind of obsessed ever since I got into recovery. Um, I was just kind of really taken back by all the. Barriers that are in place for people to engage in getting help and all this kind of like, things that are non-starters for a lot of people. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Um, not to mention the fact that we should be addressing stuff way earlier than we are. Mm-hmm. And we don't do a good job of getting people engaged, um, and services and prevention and, you know, early intervention. It's like, you know, one of the one. Analogies I always hear people use, it's like we, we treat addiction and alcoholism. Patrick Balsley: Like, like if you're like a cancer patient instead of [00:35:00] like pre-screening or mm-hmm. Or treatment when you have stage one, it's like, oh, we got no hold on. We just gotta wait for stage four cancer. Mm-hmm. To come in before we come back and see, before we do any treatment. And it's, it's always just been insane to me the fact that there ha, we haven't come up with a way. Patrick Balsley: To get people engaged in early, you know, and do early interventions that actually work instead of like trying to pigeonhole somebody that's like a moderate, you know, may meet criteria for mild or moderate use disorder. And it's like, oh yeah, but yeah, you really got, you gotta say you're severe, you gotta call yourself an addict and mm-hmm You gotta sit in all these groups that you don't really need and you know, And you gotta go to these meetings that you, you despise and hate. Patrick Balsley: Well, how do we come up with something that meets those people where they're at mm-hmm. That they can engage in? Um, cause we just, we don't have a lot of stuff like that. And I feel like there's a new wave of, of services and, and [00:36:00] information and ways, you know, to help people that are kind of in that space. Patrick Balsley: And I think, you know, that's kind of been one of the things. We've been able to do. B. Reeves: It's a great analogy though about the, you know, Yeah, it's nuts. No screenings and all of a sudden you just just wait until it's, yeah. You Patrick Balsley: know? So acute. Well, you got the thing in the doctor's office now where it's like they hand you that damn card with the blunt crayon that's like, oh, you've thought about, you know, hurting yourself today. Patrick Balsley: And then, you know, you fill it out and then the doctor just like slings it on the table. You know, Robbie Shaw: it's, hold on. Great. I Patrick Balsley: haven't had the pleasure. Yeah, you haven't had that yet with like the, with like the stringy thing on it, you know, the, you haven't, you haven't seen that in the doctor's office? Maybe I go to a, I'm due for a physical though. Patrick Balsley: Crappy Doctor Hope. Get it this time. B. Reeves: Um, that's, yeah, that, that's so true. I, um, yeah, we just, it, and it reminds me of also like kind of the older way of doing detox too. Um, waiting until the person is miserable, then treating [00:37:00] the detox symptoms. Sure. You know, instead of like we do here, getting ahead of it right when they get here and making them comfortable right away. B. Reeves: Not to promote what we do here, but it did make me think of that. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Um, well, and just that, I mean, that opens up a whole can of a conversation of, of. Prevention versus treat. Yes. Right. I mean, that's, that's our society announce the prevention. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. I mean, yeah. We're trying to put you out business. B. Reeves: Well believe we, you know, I say this at least, you know, five times a week. B. Reeves: I hope you never darken our doors here. Yeah. Talk to about this all the time. And I mean it, you know. Yeah. But yeah, I Robbie Shaw: mean, uh, but that's just the way we are, man. That's, we have an obese culture. Yep. But we don't change our food system. No. Right. Patrick Balsley: Yeah, and we don't. And we don't treat Robbie Shaw: that addiction, treat sickness, not Patrick Balsley: prevent it. Patrick Balsley: You know, we don't talk about that. I mean, addiction is like the biggest public health crisis ever. Yeah, right. You know, Robbie Shaw: we're addicted to our Patrick Balsley: phones, all the cardiovascular stuff, all that stuff. It's all addiction. Yeah. All addiction Robbie Shaw: related. B. Reeves: Do y'all, in your work and through the podcast, maybe [00:38:00] tangentially work with people or who have more process addiction, phone shopping, gaming. Robbie Shaw: I don't think that's as common to admit these days, and I don't think people think of it as an acute issue. Right? I mean, it's, it's something that we've yet. To see what its long-term effects are. We will, you know, I mean we're starting to see it in kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, anxiety and depression, you know, I mean, so partially, I mean, I think in the work that we do in knowing that, especially, especially cuz we, Patrick and I both work. Robbie Shaw: More in the holistic space, kind of looking at the entire wellness spectrum and, and screen time is absolutely one of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so we, you know, we certainly talk about that in nutrition and, you know, exercise and all those things, but especially when you're talking with kids. But, but it's the same, same thing goes with like parenting. Robbie Shaw: I mean, it's like, you know, it's constantly telling my daughter to get off her phone while I'm on my phone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:39:00] B. Reeves: Well, uh, give me, if you would, both of you, just an example or two of people who you have reached who there've been just a positive outcome from someone, whether you knew 'em before or not from Robbie Shaw: Champion, from the podcast. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, man. Um, I mean, we've had a ton. Yeah, tons. Like we get, yeah. I mean, I get emails and messages. I mean, not daily. It's not you. Packed, but we get really meaningful notes, you know, verbally and through, you know, digital messages of, oh man, I came across this and I was looking to to dial it back. Or I was looking to learn a little bit more about, you know, the correlation between anxiety and alcohol and your podcast did this for me. Robbie Shaw: And, and we get that a lot. That's awesome. It's really cool. I Patrick Balsley: mean, I, it's very gratifying. I've run. Multiple people that I had relationships with in high school or college where I hadn't seen him in 15 or 20 years. Mm-hmm. Like I went to a, I went to a [00:40:00] alumni like football game at my high school and a guy that I hadn't seen in 20 years. Patrick Balsley: It was actually a guy in my classes, little brother mm-hmm. Who was like four years younger than me. Walks up to me and he shakes my hand and he's like, Hey man, I just wanna let you know I haven't had a drink in a year and a half. That's awesome. And he goes, I didn't go to treatment. Like, I'm not, I never considered myself an alcoholic. Patrick Balsley: Um, and, and I, I don't, I still don't. But, but you know, I started listening to your podcast and really started to question how alcohol was affecting my, my life. And I decided to, to put it down. And he was like, you know, it was all cuz of listening to your show. And, and that's, I've had multiple, and I know Robbie has too, people that have told me that, oh, it's, uh, it's pretty really B. Reeves: cool. B. Reeves: Cool. Yeah. What do you say to somebody like that? Um, other than, I'm so glad to hear that, but I mean, in, in terms of sustained recovery, if somebody's not, you know, does it need the full Monty, you know, of like, what I need, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] Which is a lot of work for me to. Sober and relatively serene with somebody who's Patrick Balsley: not, they figure it out. Patrick Balsley: Cuz usually, you know people in that, I'm not saying that demographic, but people that don't meet criteria for severe issues or they're, they're doing it because they can see the correlation of their alcohol use and having a negative impact on their life once they actually stop drinking. Mm-hmm. And they feel the full effects. Patrick Balsley: And they can like tell, I, I had lunch with a guy the other day that told me that he quit for a year. Um, just a part of a like challenge. Mm-hmm. And then he had like two beers one night as he reintroduced it and woke up the next day and was like, never felt like total crap. Mm-hmm. And he never realized like how much of a negative impact it was having on him cuz he was doing it every day and he was so used to it. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. It's like, it's like cutting Robbie Shaw: out sugar and then sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Balsley: It's like, [00:42:00] yeah. You feel like crap. Yeah. So it, it's. Once you have, if you have somebody that already has their kind of life together and they're, and they have some sort of like mo external motivation to engage with life. Mm-hmm. Um, once they cut alcohol out and realize like how much more engaged they can be and how much more productive they are, how much more present they are with their families, they start to realize like, oh my God, I've been stuff suppressing all. Patrick Balsley: You know mm-hmm. Emotions and unhealthily managing stress. And now I have all these new outlets to manage this stress, and they kind of get really curious about it. Mm-hmm. And they become, you know, more engaged in more holistic stuff. Mm-hmm. It's like all the, now I'm gonna start a meditation practice. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Now I'm gonna do some ice baths and you know, now I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna go exercise more next month. I'm gonna, you know, start training for a marathon. And then they start, all this stuff starts to snowball and they see the positive impacts of all this stuff. And it all started with them changing their relationship to alcohol. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. And they feel [00:43:00] better, they start to realize that their relationship with their family's better, their marriage is getting better. Mm-hmm. Um, they're more productive at work, and then it just, it starts to build. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Love. All good. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having us. B. Reeves: Yeah. Show Notes Title: Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Introduction: In this episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, the hosts of Champagne Problems, the number one rated podcast by Charlotte Magazine. They discuss the complexities of addiction and mental health, as well as their experiences working in the recovery and wellness space. Summary: Robbie and Patrick work in private practices where they serve people who are either in recovery or looking to be in recovery. They also host Champagne Problems, a podcast that positions itself in the wellness space, discussing how addiction and substance abuse affect wellness goals such as sleep, productivity, relationships, and parenting. They talk about the sober curious movement and how it's becoming more prevalent among younger generations, with more people recognizing that alcohol can negatively impact their overall wellbeing. They also touch on the importance of articulating the dynamics of addiction and substance abuse in a more health and wellness-focused way, rather than using stigmatizing and shame-based language. Their approach involves looking at how substance use is impacting a person's life and how it aligns with their values. Main Points: • Addiction is a complex issue that impacts wellness goals such as sleep, productivity, relationships, and parenting. • The sober curious movement is becoming more prevalent among younger generations, with more people recognizing that alcohol can negatively impact their overall wellbeing. • Articulating the dynamics of addiction and substance abuse in a more health and wellness-focused way can help reduce stigma and shame associated with the issue. • Looking at how substance use is impacting a person's life and how it aligns with their values is an effective approach. Outro: To learn more about Robbie and Patrick's work, visit their private practices, Eventide Recovery and Sana Counseling, or listen to their podcast, Champagne Problems. Thank you for listening to Finding New Waters, a resource for families navigating the complexities of addiction and mental health. Robbie Shaw Links: https://champagneprobspodcast.com(https://champagneprobspodcast.com) Instagram(https://www.instagram.com/champagneprobspodcast/) Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-champagne-problems-podcast/about/) Facebook(https://www.facebook.com/ChampagneProbsPodcast/) Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/c/ChampagneProblemsPodcast) Patrick Balsley Links: https://champagneprobspodcast.com(https://champagneprobspodcast.com) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/sanacounseling)Sana Counseling Instagram(https://www.instagram.com/sanarecovery/) Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sana-house/about/)

Gain insight into addiction treatment levels with Justin McLendon, our Executive Director, and Ryan Jarrell, our Continuing Care COO. They share personal experiences and expertise, stressing the importance of understanding the care and support needed for addiction recovery. < Back to Episodes Ryan Jarrell & Justin Mclendon Levels of Care in Addiction Treatment 27:56 min | Ryan & Justin | Finding New Waters Join our Executive Director, Justin McLendon, and our Continuing Care COO, Ryan Jarrell, as they discuss the levels of care in addiction treatment and the continuum of care. Ryan is a specialist in substance use counseling and mental health counseling, while Justin shares his personal experience with addiction. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "One of the things that I we provide at the detox level of care at New Waters Recovery and other institutions like us, is we're able to provide the sense of safety for the client and the client's stakeholders, their family, and loved ones." Ryan Jarrell Podcast Transcript Justin and Ryan Audio Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] All right guys. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today at new Waters Recovery. My name's Justin McLendon. I'm the Executive director here at New Waters Recovery. I'm also a dually licensed therapist. I specialize in substance, substance use counseling, and then also in mental health counseling as well. And I am joined by Ryan Jarrell, who is our continuing care coo. And Ryan, we thank you for being on the show today, man. Absolutely. Ryan Jarrell: Thank you so much for having me, Justin. I really enjoy the fact that we're able to have these kind of conversations and provide education because it's such a befuddling kind of world to anyone who's an outsider, you know? Absolutely, completely Justin Mclendon: agree. So today we're gonna be focusing on The levels of care and addiction treatment. And we're also gonna be talking about the, that continuum of care and how that, that those level of levels of care can kind of flow and how they're intended to work. So Ryan, so maybe we could start off with just identifying what those levels of care Ryan Jarrell: are. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, like I really can't stress how difficult this can be to the [00:01:00] outsider family who maybe hasn't had substance use or maybe never had treated substance use in their family before. And we're battling against like Hollywood's depiction of what the levels of care are, right? Absolutely. Which is usually like a cut scene. Sunny room where someone's doing yoga and then someone's sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting that doesn't resemble any Alcoholics Anonymous meeting that anyone's ever been in. Right. So how we kind of like battle that image is by trying to provide these kind of this kind of education. There are different levels of care. And a lot of times they're defined partially by insurance companies, partially by best practice, by clinical visions of institutions you know, a addiction treatment. HA has had a really interesting development and I think like the evolution is very inherent in, in how it presents today. I'd like to go kind of sequentially through these levels of care from highest level of care, with the highest level of medical, medical acuity all the way down. Sure. And the first is detox or medical detoxification. And this will be a period of time that will be focused really deeply on the medical aspects of [00:02:00] of someone who is withdrawing from a substance their, their body has gained a physical dependence towards mm-hmm. These can be integrated into residential treatment facilities, or that can be standalone facilities like New Waters is mm-hmm. . We really can't underscore like how important detoxification is. And Justin, you know, from your own personal experience that someone who is going through detox from something like alcohol or benzodiazepines, they're not just uncomfortable, they have a real risk of dying. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's a, that's a thing, right? I mean, you do in A lot of times I think people think that they can just simply stop using a substance. And sometimes a lot of people seek this type of care and support on an outpatient basis. And I think the reality around it is when the level of severity of that use, especially with certain substances get to a certain point it becomes a, a potential medical emergency. Sometimes if says, if someone doesn't have the correct supervision and medical care on board to make sure that we can, that we can [00:03:00] Avoid those potential risks that surround that. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I think we provide at the detox level of care at New Waters Recovery and other institutions like us, is we're able to provide this sense of safety for the client and the client's, stakeholders, their family, and loved ones. Absolutely. You know, and allow them to know that they are in a safe place, being closely medically observed. detox. I think a lot of times people have the conception and I will really put myself out there. Like I had the conception that sure, I would go to detox, I would have a, a physical malady dealt with mm-hmm. I would have a, a physical illness and a physical dependence removed and then I would be able to go on about my life. This is something that we've seen. Empirically again and again is, is not best practice for treatment. While a detox will deal with the physical dependence to a substance and hopefully make you comfortable and give you an introduction in solid clinical backing the real work is gonna come afterwards. The real work is gonna be dealing with the mental. The emotional coping systems that you have built in place that have led you to use substances again and again. [00:04:00] Absolutely. And a detox is normally a week, and it's just not the right place to do that kind of therapeutic work. So residential level of treatment is the next level of care. Mm-hmm. This would be inpatient treatment. You, there would be some medical staff, certainly available. You'd see. Depending on the institution of course, but you'd see psychiatrists, nurses would be present, et cetera. This could last anywhere from 30, 60 to 90 days. And this is where you do the real work, both yourself and your family in healing and learning coping skills from this disease. Mm-hmm. . Justin, as someone who's worked in these kind of settings before as clinical director, I was wondering if you could, you know, share with us a little bit also about, Clinical aspects of, of that timeframe specifically. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, Ryan, you know, it can be, you know, kind of traditionally we think about these residential levels of care of being like these 28 day programs or 30 day programs, but to your point, right, sometimes it's important for someone to actually remain at that level for longer. Right. And I think nowadays, maybe in the past 10 to 15 years or so, we are seeing more of these kind of 90 day models of [00:05:00] residential treatment emerge. And I think that's really based on a lot of research that's showing. For certain individuals longer periods of time in a controlled environment to where, you know, there's simply number one, no access to those substances. And then also just being able to do some deeper work with 24 hour support can really increase suc, you know, chances of successful outcome in the, in the long term. . But a lot of that work would be, you know, group therapy, individual therapy integrating the family into that recovery process, providing education not only to the client but to the family. And again, being able to dive in and do some really deep, intensive work in an, in an environment that is controlled, right? Where someone doesn't have to necessarily worry about having a a pretty. Pretty big emotional response to any particular clinical intervention. And then that being a trigger for them to fall back into old patterns or behavior or to isolate or to do something that's not gonna necessarily be productive in moving them along. That, that continuum of [00:06:00] recovery doing that work in a, in an environment to where, if they do have a strong emotional response, there's clinical, there's medical staff, there's support staff to be there with them to encourage them to make sure that they're safe and that to make sure that we keep them on that track of moving forward and not necessarily regressing. Right. Because I think a lot of this work. That that has to happen is is deep. It is difficult. And I think a lot of times, you know, for someone that's really struggling in those early stages of recovery our, our first response can be, going backwards, right. Kind of reverting, if you will. Right. So that's why I think it is very important. It's very important that we give ourself that opportunity to get the help that we need in an environment that can support us until we are stable and ready enough to kind of step down to our lower level of care. And then we have the skills in place at that point to where we have a better chance of being able to navigate things in the, in the real world, so to speak. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. I, you know, I, I know from my own personal recovery experience, like I really struggled with relapse for a [00:07:00] period of time. Mm-hmm. . And the issue is that I would get, I would get one bad thought and I couldn't get it out of there. And drugs and alcohol were easily available to me. Right. And that was it. And I think something that I think maybe you know, People don't necessarily give enough credit to when they're looking at residential treatment is you get to spend 36 or 90 days without the temptation of alcohol and drugs. Right. And it seems so basic, but we can't underscore how important that is. Absolutely. Because there are well-meaning people out there who spend 45 days doing fantastically, and on the 46 day they get a bad idea that they just can't shake, they're not in a healthy environment and they can end up doing some real damage. You know, Absolut. We've learned so much about the treatment of addiction and, and I think one of the things that I, I really love about working with, with professionals like yourself is just that we really believe that people deserve the best. Level of care possible for themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. So residential provides not just that kind of physical removal from alcohol, the, the clinical work that you described it, it also provides a venue for families not only to get [00:08:00] some rest and take a step back, right. And know that their loved one is in a safe place, but ideally engage in some of that family programming so that everyone can engage in this process of recovery both separately and together. Absolutely. Post, post residential. You know, people will, will be discharged. There is, of course, you can't remain in an institution forever. You have to venture out into the world. So how do we best equip people to do that? Well, there are differing ways. You know, even though it may not be done directly, a lot of times in these treatment settings, people will take stock of, of recovery capital. The things that, the resources that you have to bear that would seem to lean towards having a good outcome for long-term sobriety and recovery. Depending on someone's family situation, they might be recommended to move into a. Situation. Mm-hmm. , especially for people who live alone people who don't have those methods of accountability built into their domestic situation, or they're just not coming back to a healthy environment. Sober living can be an excellent environment, not only to have that accountability built in, but develop a community of recovery, which is a huge, huge recovery capital supplier. [00:09:00] Absolutely. And this would usually be paired. Continued group therapy, either at a php, a partial hospitalization program, which is a super scary word when I tell people that they're not familiar with it. But this is outpatient programming, multiple days a week or an intensive outpatient that's a lower level of care. Again, it would be outpatient group therapy that meets several times a week. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: and real quick. Just to add a little bit more color there. So that partial hospitalization or what we, you know, the acronym is php. Typically that is more days, right? More days, more clinical hours than an intensive outpatient or also what we call an I O P. And then for partial hospitalization, I believe the regulations are, I think it's 20 to 25 hours a week of clinical services. So typically you're seeing that as a, you know, a multi-day process. You're either there kind of Monday through Friday. Sometimes this, this can even be a seven day a week thing. But as you said, Ryan, that is on an outpatient basis, right? Whether you're living at home and you're coming in, you know, to the, you know, the facility or the building [00:10:00] for those services. Or if you're living in a sober, sober home environment and then coming in, you are, you are coming in each day to a facility to receive those services and then essentially returning to the community in, in some way. as to where intensive outpatient or i o p is usually about nine to 10 hours a week. So similar, right? You're in the community, you're either living at home or with a loved one or whatever that looks like, or living in a sober home and then coming in during during the day to that, that intensive outpatient program where you're receiving and usually, you know, kind of a standard. The way that most people do this is it's about three days a week. And you usually do three, three hour groups. Kind of spread throughout the week. And then typically these places are also, whether you're at the partial hospitalization level of care or the intensive outpatient level of care, you're also doing some individual therapy and typically some continued family work as Ryan Jarrell: well. Absolutely, absolutely. Providing those kind of measures of support and building a community around you and just getting to know [00:11:00] what this real life will be like. Hopefully with the coping skills that you've built up in your residential treatment and detox day. Mm-hmm. You know, the final kind of level of care if it would be outpatient care. Probably continuing to see an outpatient therapist, continuing to see a psychiatric provider for medication management. Ideally, one who is specializes in addiction and definitely one who is aware. of your substance use disorder. Right. And the history of it and engaging in community support groups, whether it's 12 step groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous Dharma or Refuge Recovery or Smart Recovery. Mm-hmm. , just trying to find that independent. That independent community that can help support you? You know, I, I reali, I mean, as we've talked about this, we've talked about highest level of medical acuity detox. Mm-hmm. and residential treatment, 36 year, 90 days, i o P or php. That's an additional length of time. And then this final outpatient level, and I'm sure plenty of people who are new to treatment. Who are maybe exploring the idea of, of wondering what they can do to separate substances from their lives. Or thinking like, how am I gonna have the time right to do this? Right. You know? [00:12:00] And I was wondering if you had any, any thoughts, Justin? Because I, I know that that's a common thing that people bring when they become overwhelmed by the amount of time they'll have to invest in it. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. And I think, and we could, we could kind of speak to each level of that. So, you know, I think, you know, backing up to those, those inpatient levels of care, which are detox in that residential treatment, which is, you know, underneath the detox level it is true, right? You can't continue to work and, and do those things and also be in a residential program. It's just those two things typically can't coexist. There are some programs out there, you know, for someone that may be a high level executive or someone that doesn't. The luxury of being able to completely sever ties with their, with their job temporarily so that they can get the help they need. There are some programs that are available that you can continue to have your electronics, you know, if you need to log in and take care of some payroll and things like that. Those things do exist. We actually offer some of those things here at New Waters Recovery. If, if that is a true barrier for someone to be able to come in and get the help that they need [00:13:00] there are programs available that can allow them to not work necessarily full-time, but still be able to keep some touch with those responsibilities that they have in their life and get, you know, take care of those things. So, so it would take, I think for most individuals it would take a willing. And also the support, you know, from work and from family and friends to, to provide the space for that individual to, to step away, you know, for potentially months at a time to focus on their health. Right. And I'd like to compare this to, because we do view addiction as a, as a, as a neurological disease, right? Mm-hmm. a neurological disorder, and, and I. A lot of times people struggle with that idea of kind of pulling away from work and other family and life responsibilities to focus on their treatment. But I think it, it's, it's just very interesting to me that if someone was. Was given a potentially terminal diagnosis, a medical diagnosis and told that they were gonna need to do that same thing to pull out of work and other life [00:14:00] responsibilities to focus on that treatment. It's just interesting to me how people are usually more likely to, to find the ways to get that, that freedom, if you will, so that they can focus on that medical disease. , but not so much for the addiction and the mental health. But I would say that it. Just as important, right? If for us to live a you know, a life that's hopefully full of freedom and peace and happiness and, and just a healthy lifestyle. In order for us to accomplish that, sometimes it is just crucial for us to find a way to let people around us, whether that's our employers or our families, support us in a way that we can step away and we can truly focus on our, on our, on our health. Right? Absolutely. And I think also when we step down to that, that partial hospitalization, that intensive outpatient level of care it's, it's a lot of time. I mean, when we're talking, you know, anywhere from 10 to 25 hours a week. That is a lot of time. I think there is a way for someone to maybe kind of return to work or still be able [00:15:00] to engage in some of those family and life responsibilities but being realistic about the fact that it is not going to look the same as if we were not engaged in treatment. So it is important again to allow the people around us to support us, give us the space that we need to, where we can continue to focus on our treat. But then also I think as part of, of stepping back into to life and finding ways to cope with those, maybe also taking on some of those life responsibilities or maybe even taking on some of that work again. but being realistic that it's gonna probably have to be more of a part-time type schedule. Right? Absolutely. I think it's really at the, at the intensive outpatient level, there's more freedom. You're doing 10 hours a week of clinical services. I think most people find at that level of care, they usually can reengage in work and other responsibilities that they need to attend to. But it's not until you get to that true outpatient level where we're talking. You know, one to five, if you will, hours of clinical services a week. At that point, [00:16:00] I think most people are able to find, they're able to, you know, work full-time jobs, you know, attend to their families and their life responsibilities also be able to continue that treatment that's so necessary Ryan Jarrell: for them. Absolutely. I mean, it just strikes me that really at the end of the day what we're dealing with is, is battling an, it's an uphill battle against stigma. Yes. And the deep. Shame and guilt that accompanies this. And just like you said, if someone had bone cancer, right. You know, no one's weighing the days. No one's saying, I'll go in for seven days and then come back out, but I'm not doing the 30 day program. Right. Like, it's just not gonna happen. And, and there's a real a real sad and sick belief at the core of this is that yeah, people with addiction do not deserve the best treatment possible. Justin Mclendon: It's unfortunate, Ryan Jarrell: but it's true. PE people with addiction deserve to kind of suffer through things. and and, and just kind of soldier on regardless. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I can't tell you, and I know you have this experience as well, right. When people are ready for help, regardless of what they've gone through before you see employers, you see family members, they stand up with open arms to help this person on the next level of care. [00:17:00] Absolutely. Because at the end of the day, we, when you're deeply involved with someone, when you see someone suffering you, you want them to get better regardless of the nature of the valid. Absolutely. So it's, it's sad when people have this kind of sense of sh of shame and guilt that is, is blocking them from, from accessing that care. You know, isn't your life worth engaging this process regardless of the amount of time, regardless of if it was a year, you know isn't it worth doing this so that you can be fully present for others in your life and, and enjoy the fruits of it. Yeah. Yeah, Absolut. But it's just, it's, it's just an unfortunate thing, you know? And it's something that, you know, I know I had to personally struggle with and, and many others on our staff had to as well. Absolutely. I Justin Mclendon: Oh, please go ahead. I was, I was gonna say, I think another thing that's important for us to touch on is you know, and Ryan, I think you've probably seen a lot of this as well, is, you know, when someone does get to a place where they're ready to take that step into treatment. You know, similar to what you were just saying, I think there's a lot of stigma. I think number one, it takes a lot of courage to be willing to [00:18:00] take that step and just even to entertain the idea of, of seeking treatment takes a lot of courage, I think. But I think something that a lot of people struggle with is this idea of like, I can just. put forth maybe some minimal effort or that I can find this kind of one, you know, magical thing that I can do and I can spend a minimal amount, a minimal amount of time on myself and my treatment and just kind of, you know, quote unquote cure this situation and then I can just get back to living my life and everything should be, should be fine. Mm-hmm. And I, and I wonder, Ryan, if maybe you could speak to the importance I think that we see, especially working in this profession of, you know, having a solid assessment and then following through with this continuum of care in a way that you can truly get the treatment that we need. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, Ryan Jarrell: absolutely. I mean, I think at the end of the day, what we're talking about is just best practice, right? We're talking about meta studies that have been done on people all across the country suffering from this disease and. , what is the number one best track of treatment? You [00:19:00] know, I, I tell people in my office all the time, you know, if you had cancer, I'm not gonna recommend the third best chemotherapy. I'm not recommending you the second best course of treatment. I'm gonna recommend to you the best to fight against a fatal malady. Mm-hmm. , I think it's a essential, you know, an essential part of the recovery process. Well, a befuddling part of the recovery process is there was a point in time in which I had become unwittingly my own worst. And that was in ways that I knew very directly and ways that I did not know very directly, especially surrounding my fears and anxieties and these fears and anxieties over issues real or imagined would often the strain of those would lead me back to a bottle or a bag, you know? Right. And so I think I needed a period of threshing time. I needed a period of time where I really needed to not make so many decisions for a little while. Yeah, because sometimes my decisions were good in those periods of time where I was struggling to maintain sobriety, and sometimes they completely befuddling wound me back up at the bottom. So just surrendering a little bit and allowing others to guide you. To some [00:20:00] areas that might be, to guide you out of a blind spot is, is just really, really important. In all other areas of our life, we're gonna seek medical professionals constantly. And yet for some reason when it comes to behavioral health and mental health, there's just so much resistance there, you know? That's true. Yeah, I think following that continuative care is just essential. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. And, and to your point, I think. . There's just a pro, a profound amount of research. And also I think just professional experience that we see these things live out in real time that, you know. We want to take this serious. We don't want to continue to bounce in and out of treatment or to struggle with this disease for any longer than is necessary. Right? And I, I think it's important that when someone develops the, the courage and the willingness to take that step, that that's, you know, so important step of, of seeking treatment for their self. It is important to just hit it with everything they have, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And and again, I, I think we're, we're. So much research show that if we start at the most appropriate level of care, whether that be [00:21:00] detox, residential that we start at that appropriate level of care and that we follow the recommendations from the professionals involved and slowly step down through those levels of care to make sure that we are receiving not only just in, you know, a timeframe but levels of intensity to make sure that we are truly getting all of the treatment that we need. It just literally is going to greatly impact the, the chances of being able to be successful in our recovery moving Ryan Jarrell: forward. Absolutely. There's nothing more heartbreaking, and I've seen this multiple times where we have some wind in my office, we have a suggested level of care for whatever reason they're resistant, right? Mm-hmm. , and they end up leaving, and then we get the. Three weeks later, a month later, five weeks later, and they're sitting right back in my office again. Right. You know, we've had experiences like that recently and mm-hmm. and it, you know, to cut through that kind, the level of sadness and shame and guilt that they talked to me and there's no, there's no judgment here. You know what I mean? Right. We've all made plenty of, plenty of mistakes in the past, but I just wish I could erase [00:22:00] the pain and the damage that they've done in those months prior. Right. And more often than not, they do end up engaging in the appropriate level of care, but they've, they've. It's cost a lot, both resource wise and personally in the interim. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. So, Ryan, what would be one thing if there was a family member or you know, a potential identified client that was, that was listening or watching this, this episode, what would be like one thing that you would have them take away from all of this? Ryan Jarrell: Yeah, I think one thing that. I would really want them to take away from it would be to know that it's all right to ask for help. And I think there's a really deep belief, and it sounds really cliche, and like it would, you know, come on the underside of a yogurt container or something like that, . But that, that, that it's okay to ask for help. And if you can't speak openly and transparently about something to somebody, you gotta find someone to speak that stuff to. And it's probably because there's a lot of shame and guilt surrounding that issue. So to be candid with someone, ideally a professional about where you. Yeah. There's a a great deal of relief that [00:23:00] can come from that and they can guide you on a course towards getting some real some real healing and wholeness, you know? Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Well said, Ryan. Well said. I guess in, in closing, I would say especially again, you know, to anybody that's listening to this or watching that is a family member that is maybe looking into treatment options for a loved one, or maybe you're someone that is struggling with addiction. And you're just trying to find out what's the first step? What do I do? I think, you know, my biggest recommendation is the best place to start is a conversation with a professional. Right? And here at New Waters Recovery, I mean, we have those conversations on a daily basis. All you have to do is just call us and we will free of charge. I mean, we will have a conversation with you, we'll d we'll we'll gather some history on what's been going on and we'll try to help navigate, whether that's with us or with another provider that is gonna meet your needs. I think that is the best step. And that's not only with us, I think any other high quality program around, whether that's in the state of North Carolina or across the country or the world for that, That is always the [00:24:00] best, the first best step. And to, Ryan, to your point, I think having the, the willingness and the courage to, to ask for help can give you the opportunity to get a professional on the phone or, you know, on an internet chat or whatever that is, to be able to just start that conversation about like, hey, You know, openly and honestly, this is what's going on with me. And, and let someone provide that guidance about what that, that first step can look like. And really, in my opinion, I mean, taking that first step and being willing can open the doors to, to so many other things, to where we just don't have to struggle with this stuff for the rest of our life. You know? Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. I, it, it's, it's another cliche, but it's always been very powerful to me. You know, someone told me one time, listen, you never have to drink ever, ever again. And it's, it's, it's so simple and such a basic fact, but if you are struggling with this or you have a loved one who is struggling with this, they never have to do it ever, ever again. And they have the chance to put this thing in the ground, you know? It, it's just gonna take s some willingness and, and and some, some real open-mindedness. Absolutely. And willing to go to some [00:25:00] places, some scary places, both as a family and, and as an individual. It's the best. You know, I say this all the time, right? It is the best time in the history of man to have addiction issues. Mm. And if you're in America, you're in the best possible country to receive really quality services. So if you're struggling with this or thinking about it, just take advantage while you can, you know, you don't have to live in that. Confusing morass of gross emotional weight of I've engaged in this compulsive behavior that I don't like. You don't have to live in that again, again and again anymore, Justin Mclendon: you know? Absolutely. Completely agree. Well, Ryan, I, I appreciate you hanging out with me and taking some time to discuss this topic. I know we both feel very passionately about this specifically, and hopefully anybody that's watching or listening, hopefully everybody's learned a little something from this. And again, if there's any way that we can help that is literally what we love to do, right? So we'd love to help any way that we can. Thank you guys. Ryan Jarrell: Thank you so much, Justin. Yeah. Show Notes Join our Executive Director, Justin McLendon, and our Continuing Care COO, Ryan Jarrell, as they discuss the levels of care in addiction treatment and the continuum of care. Ryan is a specialist in substance use counseling and mental health counseling, while Justin shares his personal experience with addiction. They stress the importance of understanding the levels of care, starting with medical detoxification, which is crucial for someone who is withdrawing from a substance and can be life-threatening. This show will help you gain a better understanding of addiction treatment and provide a comprehensive overview of the care and support needed for those struggling with addiction. Tune in to learn more.

n this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. < Back to Episodes Breaking Barriers: Dr. Brian Licuanan on Family Interventions and Navigating Addiction Recovery 40:02 min | Dr. Brian Licuanan | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. With a focus on combating manipulation, setting effective boundaries, and fostering unified family support, he offers practical strategies for creating lasting change. Listen in as Dr. Brian discusses his approach to helping families regain hope and navigate the complexities of resistance in treatment. Subscribe "You can’t love someone out of their disease, but you can love them enough to set boundaries that save their life." – -Dr. Brian Licuanan Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. With a focus on combating manipulation, setting effective boundaries, and fostering unified family support, he offers practical strategies for creating lasting change. Listen in as Dr. Brian discusses his approach to helping families regain hope and navigate the complexities of resistance in treatment. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction: Welcome and overview of the episode. • [01:00] Meet Dr. Brian Licuanan: Dr. Brian introduces his clinical practice and his work with families and individuals in recovery. • [04:00] The Importance of Assertive Love: Redefining tough love and the role of family boundaries in recovery. • [08:00] Shutting Down Manipulation: Dr. Brian explains how families can address and counter manipulation by loved ones struggling with addiction. • [13:00] Empowering Families: Why the family unit must operate as a cohesive team with shared responsibilities. • [18:00] The 80/20 Model: Understanding the balance of legitimate struggles versus manipulation in addiction. • [24:00] Overcoming Resistance: How providing choices and addressing barriers increases the likelihood of treatment acceptance. • [30:00] Recovery as a Lifelong Journey: Dr. Brian discusses his broader view of recovery as a path for all, not just those with addiction. • [36:00] Closing Thoughts: Dr. Brian shares resources and how to access his book and services. Key Points Discussed: 1. Revising Family Strategies: Families often feel helpless, but Dr. Brian emphasizes that changing strategies can yield better outcomes. 2. Boundaries with Compassion: The importance of setting clear, enforceable boundaries while maintaining love and support. 3. Shutting Down Manipulation: Identifying and countering the tactics used by addiction to perpetuate destructive behaviors. 4. The Power of Assertive Love: Balancing love with rules and accountability to support recovery. 5. Hope for Families: Why families must stay hopeful and unified to influence their loved one’s path to recovery positively. Guest Bio: Dr. Brian Licuanan Licensed Psychologist and Author Dr. Brian Licuanan is a licensed psychologist based in California, specializing in addiction, mental health, and family interventions. With nearly 20 years of experience, Dr. Brian has worked extensively with families to navigate the challenges of supporting loved ones in recovery. He is the author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, a step-by-step guide offering practical strategies for families to foster change. Dr. Brian’s expertise spans private practice, community outreach, and educational talks, all aimed at reducing stigma and promoting mental health awareness. Resources Mentioned: • Dr. Brian Licuanan’s Website: https://drbrianlicuanan.com • Book - How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment: Amazon, Barnes & Noble Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn • Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. SEO Hashtags: #AddictionRecovery #FamilyIntervention #MentalHealthSupport #DrBrianLicuanan #FindingNewWatersPodcast #AssertiveLove #ManipulationInRecovery #BoundariesInRecovery Powerful Quote: "You can’t love someone out of their disease, but you can love them enough to set boundaries that save their life." – Dr. Brian Licuanan

In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Chris Budnick, Executive Director at Healing Transitions, delves into the heart of addiction recovery. His unique insights, rooted in both personal and professional experiences, offer a captivating look into the challenges and triumphs of overcoming addiction. Join us for an inspiring journey of resilience and healing with Chris Budnick. < Back to Episodes A Recovery Journey with Chris Budnick : A Healing Transitions Story 50:24 min | Chris Budnick | Finding New Waters In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Chris Budnick, Executive Director at Healing Transitions, delves into the heart of addiction recovery. His unique insights, rooted in both personal and professional experiences, offer a captivating look into the challenges and triumphs of overcoming addiction. Join us for an inspiring journey of resilience and healing with Chris Budnick. Subscribe On Personal and Professional Growth: "I've really been thrilled to see how we've invested in mentors for employees and how that's benefited them their personal recovery their professional development" -Chris Budnick Transcript Chris Budnick B. Reeves: [00:00:00] Good morning, everybody. This is B Reeves. I'm the director of business development here at new waters recovery with my colleague, Thomas Hogshead, who is the director of admissions and also facilities. And our guest today is Chris Budnick, who is the executive director at healing transitions. Here in Raleigh Chris Budnick: morning guys morning. Thank you for being here. Thanks for the invitation i'll B. Reeves: just start off by saying that thomas Came to new waters from working with chris at healing transition So i'm going to let him say how that Thomas Hogshead: transition happened I think Chris and I met back in 2008. I was introduced to you all by a mutual friend, and fresh out of recovery, and ended up working at Healing Transitions for 10 years, and the rest is history. And how did you find your way B. Reeves: into this world, and specifically Healing Chris Budnick: Transitions? Yeah it's, A pretty interesting story that's recovery based, so, I'll try to tell it very quickly, [00:01:00] but childhood, some difficult things, difficult head injury, depression, divorce with my parents. Grew up going to counselors, went to my first mutual aid meeting when I was 16, went to outpatient treatment when I was 18, inpatient treatment as I was turning 19. I majored in psychology as an undergrad and with a little bit of recovery I started to understand that I chose psychology as a major because I was familiar with as I was getting ready to graduate, I didn't really know what it meant to have a psychology degree. And my advisor said we could have you do an internship. And so, of the three places I interviewed the only one that accepted me was a residential. Treatment program in Rhode Island. And so, I did an internship there in September of 1993. And then in December of 93, they hired me and in 94, I interviewed for some jobs in North Carolina. I was seeing a young woman who was going to school down here and The [00:02:00] job that I ended up ultimately accepting was at a place called Charter Northridge. When I showed up for the job interview, the director of nursing was incredibly underwhelmed by me. My experience, my lack of credentials, but with me being from Rhode Island, she wanted me to come back to meet the woman whose position I was interviewing for. She was going from inpatient to outpatient. And she was from Rhode Island and homesick. And so, that led to a second interview and within that first 90 seconds of meeting Nancy learned that she worked at the treatment center I'd gone through and had known my outpatient counselor and so forth. This woman in Rhode Island, Chance Encounter leads me to get hired at Charter Northridge. The person she was going to work for was the director of the outpatient program and he would become the founding executive director for Healing Transitions, Dennis Parnell. [00:03:00] And Dennis we got to know each other and when he was new in his role, reached out to me about doing my social work internship with him in 1999 and then he ended up hiring me in 2000. Tragically Nancy who was the woman from Rhode Island her son is on our detox wall having succumbed to his alcoholism. So just lots of intersections and it was for me being able to look in the rear view mirror and see power greater than myself, playing a role in guiding and directing my path. Yeah. And B. Reeves: that leads me to something is, I know something we want to talk to you about today is, we. All three of us are in recovery and we all work in the treatment field and kind of the beautiful part of it and then the tragic part of it is not only seeing, clients come and go and sadly not make it and die, but ones who are really close to, but also in our, in our personal recovery people, we know from [00:04:00] the rooms, the 12 step rooms and beyond who don't make it. But then also the beautiful thing, like I know you talked about somebody that, That we all three know who came through healing transitions and is now a judge. So we talk a little bit about like just the, the real ups and downs of not only being in recovery, but working in the field. Chris Budnick: Yeah. Thanks. It's something I've I spent a lot of time wrestling with and thinking about I am 33 years in my own recovery, which seems unfathomable, when I came into recovery, the thought of staying for a year, seemed to. Like, that seemed like a good goal. The work that I started in the settings were very crisis stabilization based. And so, what I found to be very different about working at Healing Transitions is that It's a long term program. It's one where you may work with people multiple times. And it's one where, for me, I've developed [00:05:00] relationships with people that, are approaching, 23 years next month. And the other thing that's a real strength for us is, 75 percent of our staff currently are alumni of the program. So you go from somebody who's showing up to receive services to becoming a colleague, and so there's this kind of always this. Evolution of what the roles are and the relationships and because of that and because of the just the volume of people that we serve we're subjected to some of the most inspirational stories and some of the most heartbreaking losses and those losses are, compounded by. Knowing their families, in many situations seeing the pain that and suffering that, family, friends, a lot of our alumni who work for us experience. So it's just, it's a little bit of extreme emotions that. encounter in more of a short term kind of crisis [00:06:00] stabilization when I worked for Holly Hill and Dorothea Dix and Charter Northridge and things like that. And so, I'm frequently You know, contemplating, like, how do you, how do I personally stay in this work and how do I support others and, a couple of things from a work perspective is, we created informed consent for employment for any applicant to really think about. Here are the potential benefits and potential risks that come from working in this environment that not only may you encounter, crisis situations or loss of life, but you also may come to care for people very deeply who then end up passing. On the other hand, you may see somebody who was so hopeless and understanding that person's family mother was really hurting for them to see 13 years later the mother holding a Bible while he's being sworn in as a, as an attorney, by the state bar. So, so we tried to do that and we've really [00:07:00] tried to invest in mentoring Part of my, professional experience has been seeing some of the risks that can happen when you become a siloed organization and how important it is to be connected to others outside of your organization for perspective to avoid developing, a myopic view or lens of the problem and the solution and to get outside perspective and support. And so I've really been thrilled to see How we've invested in mentors for employees and how that's benefited them, their personal recovery, their professional development and so forth. And, I think, Thomas knows, very well, we lost somebody very close to us in August and it was something that I think many of us anticipated and, Bill White talks about anticipatory grief for families, like when you're anticipating the loss and what that's like to live with that and It's very complicated, somebody that first met in 2006, somebody [00:08:00] that, worked for somebody who I knew their family in different ways and got to know their their son and where I ended up, at the end of a 17 year relationship was like, all I can do is just, let him know that he's loved. Like, I love you, and if today's a good day, I'm going to celebrate that. And it was interesting leaving his service which was like the 60th funeral I'd been to for one of our alumni. I ended up stopping at a restaurant with co worker of mine just either was really hungry, but just needed some space to cause I'd sat in that same I'd sat in that same funeral home, uh, two and a half years before when they buried his sister. And I'd sat in that same funeral home almost three years ago when they buried his fiance. All from overdoses, right? And so we're sitting at this restaurant [00:09:00] and just trying to get some space and so forth. And we look over and there's two alumni and they're grabbing something to eat and they're getting ready to go pick up guys for a meeting, and then a third guy walks in who's an alumni who had just celebrated. 12 years of recovery that week and then I realized that one of the two that are earlier in recovery, about three years in, I'd connected one of them with the guy with 12 years because this guy was on his path to school and wanted to figure out a pathway from Wake Tech to NC State and this other alumni had done it. And then I was just freaking amazed this week to learn that this guy started working for you guys three weeks ago. That, Thomas Hogshead: wow. B. Reeves: I want to let Thomas talk to you more directly about this, but you said 75 percent of your employees are alumni of Healing Transitions. We, I don't know what the percentage of them here is, but it's Thomas Hogshead: fairly high. Pretty high. We're about 25%. Yeah. Yeah. So the intersectionality between providers in a different [00:10:00] space, we're all tied together in a profound way. Yeah. B. Reeves: And our Healing Transitions alum employees are, they're amazing. I don't want to say they're better than anybody else because that, that, but they are. They are amazing. Chris Budnick: We appreciate it so much. It, it warms my heart, right, to see the opportunity that's being afforded to so many of our alumni that are in recovery through coming to work at New Waters. It's really one of the It's an uplifting thing. It's all of all those things that you need to counter the laws, right? You start putting in the other ledger column, like you just B. Reeves: said just that encounter in the restaurant It was this sad thing think about the 60 funerals you've been to been in the exact same funeral home But then not only was it countered when you run into that There's the twosome at the table, but then the other guys coming in. Yeah, we were on their way. It's just Yeah, it's a, it's definitely like a ledger, of the pluses and minuses, unfortunately. But you mentioned Bill White and I don't know too much about Bill White. I know that he was a,[00:11:00] wrote the book on treatment. And I also know you're a big historian of N. A., Narcotics Anonymous. Will you talk about? Chris Budnick: Yeah. So, this is interesting. The way that pharmaceutical companies used to engage with doctors was often, like holding events and, really treating them well, so, a physician, psychiatrist friend of mine was being asked by, I don't know, Pfizer or something to host a event at a Mad Hatter's, and this was like maybe around 98. And I crashed it and and I, it was interesting cause I watched like the doctors that are getting so many like items to go and just the culture around this sort of stuff is they're marketing their medications. And I got a 25 gift card to Barnes and Noble. That was my gift for coming to this event, which I wasn't invited to. And I used it to buy slaying the dragon the history of addiction treatment and recovery in America. And It was a profound read, and [00:12:00] that was my introduction to Bill White. It was my introduction to his writings and his trainings and his writing style, which was very accessible. And I had emailed with him some as I started teaching at NC State and just wanting some feedback on some topics and things like that. buT what struck me was a couple things. This kind of overlapped and coincided with starting at the healing transitions, which at the time was the Healing Place of Wake County. And it was very much an AA oriented. group of people that were involved with the founding and very heavy AA orientation. And that led me to become interested in learning more about the history of AA, in addition to learning about everything that Bill had written about in Slaying the Dragon. And and then also just noticing some of the additional stigma that individuals who are addicted to drugs other than [00:13:00] alcohol face in society. That even, it's not uncommon for somebody with a history of addiction if they're trying to explain part of their history to substitute, well, I have a history of alcoholism because it's a little more, people can tend to wrap their head around that or be more accepting or less judgmental of it. So I became pretty interested in just the experience of individuals with addiction and the, How more marginalized and stigmatized they have been historically than just people with alcoholism. And so I, I got very interested in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I became very interested in something called the Narcotic Farm, which was one of the few resources that was really created as an alternative to federal prisons for individuals who are addicted. And it was because in the 20s the wardens were saying, these Addicts who were coming to our prisons or disrupting our prisons. We need to get these addicts out of our prisons. People saying they're the worst prisoners you can have. And so they set up these two narcotic farms. [00:14:00] The medical director for our detox for many years, Dr. Al Mooney, what I came to discover is that the things I was researching around the narcotic farm his father had been a patient there. He had first gone there voluntarily and then he'd been probated there in 1959. And The whole story of the first alternative 12 step group to Alcoholics Anonymous, one called Addicts Anonymous that formed in 1947. It had been formed at the narcotic farm and Dr. Mooney's father, John, had been a member of that group and that was his introduction to recovery. And what was most fascinating about it and listening to a talk by John Mooney is that when he went there the doctors said, we're going to give you the psychotherapy that we have, the best. Psychotherapy we have to offer, but you need to agree to stay for however long it takes. And he knew he was only probated there for a certain period of time and he knew he wouldn't stay. Once that was expired and so he turned it down [00:15:00] and they said if you're not going to take the best then the only other thing we can suggest is you go to the Addicts Anonymous group. And so what's fascinating about this to me is that the Addicts Anonymous group introduced so many people to Alcoholics Anonymous. And also led to the creation of other 12 step groups for individuals addicted to drugs other than alcohol. So, by Dr. John Mooney turning down The doctor said is the best. he Actually got introduced to something that turned out to actually be a lifelong solution for him. Did Addicts Anonymous become Narcotics Anonymous or were they two separate? Two separate things. Does that exist today? Addicts Anonymous? Nope. There's been, no, that Addicts Anonymous does not exist today. It existed while the narcotic farm was open from 47 until the early late 60s. But a lot of people left there and if they couldn't get assimilated into Alcoholics Anonymous they would start things like Drug Addicts Anonymous in Chicago [00:16:00] in the early 50s, Narcotics Anonymous in New York, which that branch folded and so forth. But all this stuff was It was just incredibly fascinating to me and also making me think about, the experience of folks who were addicted to drugs other than alcohol in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and what their. what their fate was, which was usually one that did not end in recovery and also robbed their families and their communities of the benefits that recovery can bring. I ended up getting introduced to Boyd in 2007, as he was interested in learning more about the history of recovery for individuals with addiction. We. We're, particularly focused on the narcotics anonymous story since that's a more it's one of the largest fellowships for individuals addicted to drugs other than alcohol and and in 2009 in trying to make some sense and get some guidance out of our[00:17:00] consulted with Bill White and he said he wanted to collaborate with us. And so that led to a article in 2011 on the history and culture of Narcotics Anonymous. And then mostly rewarding for me was he asked us to contribute to the second edition of Slaying the Dragon. And so when I had gotten the first edition of Slaying the Dragon, it had a chapter on alcoholic, Alcoholics Anonymous and it had a page and a half on Narcotics Anonymous. And what he wanted was to create a chapter of its own substance and so we were able to contribute that to the 2014 second edition of Slaying the Dragon, which was really pretty remarkable and And then aside from that, like, Bill's just had a tremendous influence on so many people on our field and helping us think about how to better serve. individuals, families, and communities and for me what my experience, my entry into the field and what my early experience was was really this acute [00:18:00] care response to a chronic condition and there's so many kind of mistakes or things that I feel like I've had to unlearn and a lot of his teachings helped me a lot of his writings helped me. With some of that unlearning and to, come to recognize multiple pathways to recovery and to think about different recovery management principles, things that have had kind of a profound influence on how we have evolved our services and our culture at Healing Transitions. Thomas Hogshead: And to that point, Chris, I think about the chronicity. And we had a detox client at HT that I think he had come through. You can speak to the exact count, but the families and the frustration for the staff, for their loved ones and you made a good point. To staff that was frustrated. He said, well, what if that was your father? Would you have that same level of frustration as he came in and out and in and out and this individual has a unique story? I didn't know if you could touch on that for a little bit. [00:19:00] Yeah, Chris Budnick: you know what's there's a lot of dynamics to that So staff frustration is a universal thing that has gone back decades and decades. The Narcotic Farm started off with this kind of vision of we're going to bring people out to a farm with fresh air and activities and we're going to invest all this into them. And the Narcotic Farm staff got very disillusioned because people would end up using when they went back to their communities. And there was You know, 95 percent relapse rate of people that went to the narcotic farm. So there's this long history of people saying, well, why is this person back here? What, what isn't working? We've given them this, we've invested in this and they seem to be doing well and so forth. And so, understanding people's communities, Bill talks about Don Coyus and this idea of treating the soil and a healing forest and analogies about that. And, we. [00:20:00] Bring a tree into good conditions. It does well. We put it back in its old conditions and it starts to deteriorate and we seem surprised. anD then just with the individuals that we serve, regardless of the community, they all differ too, so, one of the things that was very helpful to conceptualize was the idea of problem severity, problem complexity, and recovery capital and how those, uh, impact folks. But it's You know, it's an understandable, but also difficult thing for the staff who get frustrated. So a lot of times for our staff, this unique frustration was, I'm an alumni of this program. I did these things that were laid out. It worked for me. If this person just does what I did. It will work for them, and that may not be how it's articulated, but that's really the understandable way of trying to make sense of why am I in recovery, but this person's not. And so there's a couple individuals that come to mind. One is a person [00:21:00] is Thomas was referring to who had just You know, so many frequent detox admissions and then another was one who, when I was doing a crisis intervention team training this week, I always describe like some of these real extreme cases and how perplexing they can be. And I always, I use code. Which is I say, I'll say, the kind of guy that when he ends up at wake med, they take the hand sanitizer out of the bay and then like the paramedics in there, like I'll watch. And on Tuesday, the two paramedics were like, Oh yeah, like they know who these people are. And then I was able to say, Oh, by the way, that. That guy's got three years of recovery. He's in Kentucky right now, doing well. The other guy, in 2012, he stayed with us for 90 days. That was working then. Yeah. And And it was like he's never stayed for 90 days before and so what was going on? Well, the staff were doing different things with him. They kept him in detox for a month. They gave him, they lessened the expectations for him to fit into what everyone else [00:22:00] was doing who was there. That naturally creates some tension. Why does this person not have to do what the majority is doing? And part of my thinking on it was do you want it? His type of alcoholism, do you want his, would you want to switch places with him? Would you want his brain, because I believe his brain is, just based on research that shows, that people who relapse after treatment tend to have, smaller volume, certain parts of the reward pathway. And so, so, and looking at this stuff, it was helpful. to staff who understandably you're dealing with somebody who's at their worst, who's not necessarily, filled with gratitude or making the type of change that kind of feels like our experience is paying off, but what we started to do was we I started to think about how do we define success a little bit differently, and maybe for one person it's, in 13 years they'll become an attorney, and maybe for another one it's just that they're not on the street and they're [00:23:00] not being responded to by EMS and and the EMS thing was, In particular of interest to me, so I said, well, do you sign a release for Wake County EMS? I'd like to know about your transport history. And so EMS could go back to half of 2010. They said, we can give you half of 2010, which was 76 responses and 70 transports and half a year. And and the year that he was with us in 2012. It was down to 18 transports and so it was Hey staff, this may be difficult and frustrating, but guess what, each day that he's here, he's less likely to be being transported by the paramedics to the hospital. What was particularly impactful and again, this. cOmmunity partnership is so important and our paramedic friends have been so important. They would send new recruits and they would send advanced practice paramedics to spend time with us. And so one day they're visiting with us and they said, Oh my God, he's here. We had been so worried that something had happened to [00:24:00] him. We haven't been seeing him. And you start seeing this. perspective of the paramedic world where they're like, we know that he doesn't like turkey sandwiches. Right. Right. And so you start seeing those people on the front lines and understanding their experience and their worldview a little bit differently and really seeing so much of the compassion that they have for some of the people that can be challenging and difficult to work with. So we kept tracking this every year. Email EMS and I'll say any transports this year and for the last seven or eight years, no transports. The other thing is no admissions with us. All right. And we are in touch with them. Yeah. And we were able on his 60th birthday to put the word out there and some of the paramedics and other people. Thomas and folks were able to reach out to him and wish him happy birthday and so forth. But his path of recovery is somebody that never completed our program. Somebody's probably wasn't going to be capable of completing in the way that we had it designed. But it [00:25:00] spoke to making some adjustments. And the only thing that was a little bit ironic about it all was he came to me in 2012 at one point and said, hey, I just got a bill. And so like me asking to reach out to EMS for this data, it triggered a generation of a bill and we did a small podcast series a few years back called Voices from the Village and we did one with a One of our advanced practice paramedic friends and we asked this person to come in and record the intro and it was like, Hey, do you know what a podcast is now? Well, it's it's like the radio, and we just want you to talk a little bit at the beginning of that and we'll add it to the podcast. So number one. When he showed up, he said, I want to donate some clothes because for so many years, I was getting clothes from you guys and so very touching. And then number two is we're doing this intro to the podcast. It was, hey, do you remember that bill? And we had different recollections of it. His recollection was it was [00:26:00] half a million. Mine was it was 250, 000. So I've always had a little twinge of guilt that, like me asking him to share data generated this huge bill that was outstanding for him. But. Anyways it's one of the ways, I think it's been a learning opportunity for staff, who, and again I've heard it from paramedics, like we're administering Narcan and then we're back administering Narcan to the same person. Like there's a certain sense of like, are, is what we're doing effective? Does it matter? Why do we keep doing this? And with the paramedic friends, we, were able to launch this post overdose response. And, basically said maybe if we paired some people with lived experience with you that it could get some people out of that cycle. And so that project's over five years old now and in addition to serving the individual, it's also giving the paramedics a sense of like, we have some resources, so we don't feel like we're so helpless to make any type of impact or change. We had another guy who. [00:27:00] Between 2017 and 2021 had 54 detox admissions. And my usual sense was if he's not here with us if he's with somebody else, he's giving us a break. And if he's with us, he's giving some other provider a break. And four o'clock today he's invited me to come for a brick placement at our Memorial Garden. And he's got over two years of, sobriety now, and I ended up writing a blog which I don't do that often, but I've got some really good colleagues, Jason Schwartz, Shane Phillips, Matt Statman, Brian Kuhn. And they've, through Jason's leadership, have this blog site called Recovery Review Blog. And I don't contribute often, but I was in a supervision session and the woman who runs our family. Support an education program said, Oh, did you hear that his mom sold the suit? for his funeral and those, that those eight words or whatever, I was like, Oh my God, like [00:28:00] that is, you could spend a semester on that. And with him, I did this kind of blog post, about what does that mean? Like what does it mean for a family to get to a place where they say, We need to go ahead and buy a funeral to bury our son and then the way he learned that his mom had sold the suit was he was going to speak at a recovery meeting and said, Hey mom, I think. My sponsor said if I wore that suit that you bought for my funeral, it would be impactful, and she said, but we sold it. Wow. We're not worried about having to bury you, so at four o'clock today, I'll be there as they do this brick placement for you. That's awesome. Thomas Hogshead: Another commonality is these folks that we engage with over and over again, they're all deeply affable, right? Like in the recovery rooms, the 12 step rooms, like It's a pretty nice group of people. Yeah. And I think our struggles are what bind us together and staff rooting for those folks that have More so [00:29:00] participants, staff, we can get a little worn down by them. But that kind of cocoon of support is especially existent at HT. And it's really something special to see, Chris. On that note, maybe you could tell us a little bit, there's some stuff going on down there, I understand. Both at the men's and the women's campus. Could you tell Chris Budnick: us about that? Yeah, and what you said just imprompted two other thoughts with me, which is It's somewhat unique in this work where there can be an extreme set of So we had we decided to select two people for staff of the year. And I said, well, the first, first one we're selecting, he's, his tenure goes back to 2002, but it's really only the last two years that it's been as an employee. So, and what I said was, there were so many amazing things about why this person was nominated and selected, but I said like with seriousness, like, When he's been using, like, I want to hurt him. Like. Yeah. And [00:30:00] like, that's a huge, like the other thing that's been weird about being in this work is trying to reconcile human, natural human emotions and feelings with, what your professional role is, but that's an, like this guy was such a He just jeopardized other people's recovery the way he came up on campus bringing drugs with them, and things like that So but I love and I've went through this with another guy recently. I just love how recovery you know how easy it is to See the goodness and the compassion when the person's not impaired by their addiction our Greatest strength and greatest weakness in some ways may be that we provide services on demand and we don't turn people away and the beauty of that is You know, I asked staff yesterday at our holiday luncheon if we didn't operate like that And if healing transitions turned you away when you needed help or if we weren't here What would that have meant and I had two people [00:31:00] talk to me said one person said My sentence would have been until 2040 I wouldn't be sitting here with you right now. Another person came up to me and said they would be referring to me by a number, not by my name. And so there's some amazing things because we don't turn people away. There's some amazing things because we don't, uh, say there's no room here, call tomorrow. buT there's some tough things with that too, which is severe overcrowding to try to meet the demands. We are fortunate that the community decided to support us in increasing our capacity so that we could continue the practice of services on demand. And so we're very excited that our women's campus stage one of expansion should be done in early to mid January, which gives us a brand new community room that is large enough to accommodate our growth. But allows us to move the public and some of the staff out of where the women reside. Excited about that. At the same time, [00:32:00] we should be, our new shelter will be opening up, giving us 80 new beds at our women's campus, but more importantly, creating an infrastructure to support the number of people that we want to serve. We're averaged 160 women for the month, but that's in a. building designed to support 88 women, right? We'll be going to a capacity of 210, like with the infrastructure, enough restrooms, laundry, dining, and so forth. We'll have some interior renovations that are going on. And then we're really excited that out of this project at the Women's Campus that we've been given an opportunity from a Family Foundation to explore apartment style recovery housing for women and women with their children at our women's campus after they complete the recovery program. At our men's campus construction is been a little more slow to develop, a lot more coordination because it's property that we lease and working with our partners at the city. So we're expecting to be [00:33:00] done in October of 2024. That expansion is intended to take us from an infrastructure of 165 to an infrastructure of 290. One of the challenging things is that in October we averaged 347 men a night in our 165 bed campus. And so it's a little difficult that we've exceeded our future capacity. We're getting a little bit of relief St. John's Metropolitan Community Church has opened up White Flag Shelter, but because of the demand has said we'll operate every night whether it's cold weather night or not. And that's been supported by funding from the city and the county. And that's alleviating some of the demand for our services primarily for those who would end up in our detox if we weren't providing the drop in shelter. Chris, if Thomas Hogshead: you had to, do you have a number of how many unique clients you guys have served since opening in 2001? Chris Budnick: Yeah, so if you look at our database, there's about I want to say about 24, 25, [00:34:00] 000 unduplicated. You got to back out four from there, which are the cats. We got four cat entries in the database from some previous cats that we've served. Thomas Hogshead: If you think about that, not only you have those individuals, but you have their families, their. Yeah. It the reach that, that has, I would argue is more impactful than probably any organization in the state, recovery standpoint has had I've B. Reeves: told Chris this over the last few years, I've been to so many treatment centers around the country that are super nice and some of them, a lot of them have great treatment, beautiful facilities, but I don't think there's a place I respect as much as healing transitions. It's amazing what it does for this community. Just the ripple effect of 25, 000 ish people is probably in the millions of lives Chris Budnick: touched in some way. Thank you for the kind words and the respect. Yeah. Well, and B. Reeves: also we usually do this at the beginning of this. Will you just just tell us exactly nuts and bolts you backed into it of what healing transistors does. And we already said when it opened, but just, Chris Budnick: just the facts. Yeah. [00:35:00] So identified need in the community around alternative to jails and emergency departments. original concept was get a detox that could be that alternative location. The healing place in Louisville was identified and it had more than just the detox. It had an emergency shelter that provides basic human entitlement. It's a shelter that people can come in under the influence and it can serve as a a cultivating way to cultivate people into the recovery program. So detox, shelter, and then long term recovery program is what most of our beds are devoted to. And then we've added, we've either had or evolved the additional services that we would say are the ones that support our core services. So again, core services, shelter, detox, recovery program. We've always had transition case management to help at the end of the recovery program with linkage to recovery housing and employment. We've always had a healthcare coordinator who arranges healthcare professionals to come in and do clinics. And that role has [00:36:00] evolved to do things like prescription assistance. So this year we're I'm going to do about 45, 000 in prescription assistance. Hopefully that'll look different next year with Medicaid expansion referrals to providers in the community and so forth. When we opened our women's, we added a child and family specialist. I want to say around 2010 we said, we should start this family education support program. And so we've got somebody that oversees that. We added a recovery outreach program with the idea that with expansion if we don't do some other things differently, we're going to continue to outgrow the space. So we need to do a better job of supporting people when they leave. Previously we would do follow up with you if you completed the program, but we're a whole bunch of people off by not following up with those who don't complete. And so we've got dedicated staff that works with volunteers to help do outreach to people, whether they stay a day or a year. We added a child and family peer support specialist a couple of years ago, which was very [00:37:00] exciting because it's a woman that had. been through the program and been served by the child family specialist. And so she's able to be in that role with the lived experience. I mentioned the post overdose response team. We call it the rapid responder program. And then we've been able through some funding to add some care coordinators and case managers for particularly women at our emergency shelter, and they've been able to get. Over 40 women into housing this year, which is a very impactful service that's being offered. So, that feels like, in a nutshell, what we do, and we do it by, with no cost to the individual, trying to eliminate or reduce barriers, services on demand, work with people as many times as it takes, use a peer oriented a peer orientation, but not at the exclusion of clinical services. So we partner with folks like Caroline Outreach and Monarch and others to do the clinical care when it's identified. And we believe in linking people to the [00:38:00] larger recovery community. That's where the lifelong support will come from. And we also use this hand up, not hand out model where we match people's investment into their own change. I love that. Yeah. Thomas Hogshead: Chris, what would you say the most rewarding moment has been in your career? tenure at H P, now Healing Transitions. Does anything stand out in particular or is it an overall? Chris Budnick: Yeah, so I come back to this one particular story and there's hundreds of these stories, but there's one that I hold closely and a colleague of mine, Terry we have this kind of ongoing thing where I know it makes her cry, so I ask her to talk about it to people and so she always gets angry at me in a way. But in 2019 there's a series of losses that kind of accumulated and there was a woman that was struck and killed when she was intoxicated who had walked off from our campus. [00:39:00] There was a guy that I was texting with who was wanting to come back, I was working that out, well, swing by and see on Sunday, come Sunday morning, his mom was going to take him to see the sunrise and then bring him in and get notified the next morning that, he died between the time that we had agreed for him to come in and for him to arrive, his mom find him, found him dead of an overdose. And then seven, 10 days later from that, a close volunteer and supporter, his stepson had an overdose, which eventually became fatal. And I remember that time feeling just a lot of weight. And I took advantage of our EAP program one because it's what I, what we would recommend to other people. And I met with some people and so forth. And I did all those things, but the thing that made a difference, All the difference in the world was, I was sitting down for a monthly check in with this employee Terry. And it wasn't part of our [00:40:00] conversation. We're meeting to talk about her work and things like that. And she says, Hey, I want to let you know that my son got married. And I was invited to the wedding and again there's hundreds of these types of stories. She says I didn't know this, but they had a dance for the bride with her father. And then all of a sudden I found out that I was being asked to go out there and have a dance with my son. And she says and I'm overwhelmed with emotion and I'm crying. I'm, I'm a decade in recovery, but I'm still, feel guilt and remorse for not being there for my children. And as I'm doing that, my son just hugs me and says, it's all okay, mom, and she's having this profound sense of forgiveness and, experiencing something that she didn't think she was going to get to experience. And then she says to me, the other thing that happened was I got a picture with my parents. I've never had a picture with my parents [00:41:00] before, right? Something that I take for granted, that many of us take for granted. She says, my parents divorced when I was really young and this is, they were both at the wedding. It was the first time that I was able to get a picture with both of my parents. So there's hundreds of stories like that. But that story is one that at that moment it countered all the grief I was feeling about these recent losses. And I think that if To this question, what's been the most rewarding thing? I think it's any time that I see the alumni, uh, come together in an act of love and support for one another. Last Sunday, it was at the state farmer's market restaurant where they held a memorial service for one of our alumni. And watching the way the ladies who've been through our program love on her in her [00:42:00] last days and those are the things that are the Most validating. Thomas Hogshead: That's amazing. Yeah. That's good stuff. One other thought I have too about is our HT alum on staff here. Their ability to connect with our clients is very profound. We talked about the bond that we have with HT. We're set up differently, but our mission is the same, right? This first step of like getting into recovery, how does that look? And our, those folks I just mentioned, they're able to relate to people, make them feel comfortable. Like we talked about when I worked for you, make people feel valued because we come in wounded, right? It's it's not a moral failure, our disease, our affliction, but collectively. On your side of town, our side of town, and we're all trying to do the best we can. Yeah. Any way you would if people wanted to help HT in some capacity, what what are you recommending now? I know we're doing a co drive being winter. What else could we do? What else could folks do to support? Chris Budnick: I just want to thank [00:43:00] you guys for being sponsors of Oakwood 24 and that's coming up next week and there's lots of ways that people can get involved so that, and to be supportive. One of the first things that we recommend is come take a tour. And tours can be scheduled or they can happen anytime during business hours. Just come in and want to see, learn more about it. We find that is impactful because somebody may encounter somebody that's in need of our services at some time and we'll be glad to know that it exists. It may lead to them wanting to contribute in some way, either through their talents or services or to contribute financially. So about 45 percent of our annual revenue is fundraising, so not, grants or government sources and things like that. So we've got a big ask, or big lift every year to try to raise money. And one of the things that drives that for me is wanting to be a living wage organization. We want our employees, again, 75 percent who are alumni, to be able to afford housing in the community that they serve.[00:44:00] Well, Chris, Thomas Hogshead: we're very grateful for you coming out. Thank you for being here Chris Budnick: and for everything you do. Yeah. Thank you for everything you do. I'm a big supporter of you guys. Thank you. Always willing to help out and it's very, warms my heart to think of the people that you hire here and the work that you do. Show Notes In this impactful episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we are privileged to have Chris Budnick, a seasoned professional in addiction treatment and recovery, as our guest. Chris, who is the Executive Director at Healing Transitions, shares his extensive experience and insights into addiction recovery. Having worked in the field since 1993, Chris brings a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to our discussion. Throughout the episode, Chris Budnick talks about the transformative journey of addiction recovery, both from a personal and a professional perspective. His involvement with Healing Transitions since its inception has been instrumental in driving forward the organization's mission. Chris's role as an Adjunct Instructor at North Carolina State University's Department of Social Work also highlights his commitment to education and mentoring in the field of addiction treatment. Healing Transitions, under Chris's leadership, offers a range of services aimed at assisting individuals with addiction. These services include long-term recovery programs, overnight shelters, and non-medical detox. The organization operates two campuses – a Men’s Campus located at 1251 Goode St, Raleigh, NC, and a Women’s Campus at 3304 Glen Royal Rd, Raleigh, NC. They also run the Recovered Treasures Thrift Store at 4011 Capital Blvd, Ste 109, Raleigh, NC. Listeners interested in learning more about Chris Budnick's work or Healing Transitions can reach out via email at cbudnick@healing-transitions.org or by phone at 919-821-1140. For more information about Healing Transitions and their various programs and services, visit their website: [Healing Transitions](⁠https://healing-transitions.org/⁠(https://healing-transitions.org/) Join us in this compelling conversation with Chris Budnick on the Finding New Waters Podcast, where we delve into the human aspect of addiction and the path to healing and recovery. Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)

In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. < Back to Episodes Long-Term Recovery: David McNease on Healing, Growth, and Purpose 39:05 min | David McNease | Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. David shares his personal journey from addiction to sobriety and how his struggles led him to create a structured, long-term solution for young men facing substance use disorder and failure to launch. He discusses the importance of time in recovery, the power of community, and why real change happens when individuals are given the space to rebuild their lives. David’s insights offer valuable guidance for anyone navigating early recovery or supporting a loved one through the process. Subscribe "Recovery takes time, and young men need a space where they can truly build a life—not just get sober." – David McNease Show Notes In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. David shares his personal journey from addiction to sobriety and how his struggles led him to create a structured, long-term solution for young men facing substance use disorder and failure to launch. He discusses the importance of time in recovery, the power of community, and why real change happens when individuals are given the space to rebuild their lives. David’s insights offer valuable guidance for anyone navigating early recovery or supporting a loved one through the process. --- ### **Timestamps:** - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming David McNease and an overview of Greenville Transitions. - **[03:00] The Importance of Long-Term Treatment**: Why young men need time and structure to succeed. - **[07:00] David’s Personal Recovery Journey**: His struggles with addiction and the turning point that changed his life. - **[12:00] Failure to Launch & Recovery**: Helping young men find purpose and independence. - **[18:00] Holding Boundaries in Recovery**: Why family support should come with accountability. - **[25:00] Creating a Culture of Recovery**: How Greenville Transitions fosters real, lasting change. - **[31:00] Building a Life Beyond Addiction**: Finding success, relationships, and fulfillment in sobriety. - **[38:00] Advice for Those Struggling**: What David wants young men and their families to know. - **[44:00] How to Connect**: Information about Greenville Transitions and David’s platform, Clean Breakthrough. --- ### **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **The Value of Long-Term Recovery**: Why a longer runway helps young men truly embrace sobriety. 2. **Accountability and Boundaries**: The role of family in supporting—not enabling—recovery. 3. **Success Beyond Sobriety**: How structure, life skills, and purpose help individuals thrive. 4. **The Influence of Peers**: How recovery culture can make or break long-term success. 5. **Building Confidence Through Action**: The small wins that add up to lasting change. --- ### **Guest Bio:** **David McNease** **Founder & CEO, Greenville Transitions** David McNease is the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program designed to support young men struggling with substance use disorder and failure to launch. Having faced his own battles with addiction in his early 20s, David understands the unique challenges young men face when transitioning into adulthood. His program provides structure, accountability, and long-term care, ensuring clients have the tools they need to build fulfilling, sober lives. Through his work at Greenville Transitions and his social media platform, Clean Breakthrough, David continues to inspire and guide individuals on their recovery journeys. --- ### **Resources Mentioned:** - **Greenville Transitions Website:** [https://www.greenvilletransitions.com](https://www.greenvilletransitions.com) - **Clean Breakthrough (Social Media Platform):** [https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough](https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough)(https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough](https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough)) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** [https://www.aa.org](https://www.aa.org) --- ### **Follow Us:** - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### **Watch & Listen:** - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) #DavidMcNease #GreenvilleTransitions #LongTermRecovery #YoungAdultSobriety #FindingNewWatersPodcast #RecoverySuccess #CleanBreakthrough