In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes From Family Business to Recovery Work with Steve Lee 57:17 min | Steve Lee | Finding New Waters In this heartfelt and deeply insightful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Steve Lee, Senior Director of Strategic Relationships at Cumberland Heights. Steve reflects on his 35-year journey in recovery, his unexpected transition into the treatment field at age 58, and the guiding values that shape both his life and career. From stories of personal transformation to reflections on ethics in behavioral health, this episode is a masterclass in humility, wisdom, and the power of principled living. Whether you’re in recovery, working in the treatment space, or simply seeking a deeper understanding of authentic leadership, Steve’s words will resonate. Subscribe “Do my principles hold up when the mortgage is due, when my boss is on me about admissions? A principle is not malleable—it’s either firm or it’s not.” – Steve Lee Show Notes In this heartfelt and deeply insightful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Steve Lee, Senior Director of Strategic Relationships at Cumberland Heights. Steve reflects on his 35-year journey in recovery, his unexpected transition into the treatment field at age 58, and the guiding values that shape both his life and career. From stories of personal transformation to reflections on ethics in behavioral health, this episode is a masterclass in humility, wisdom, and the power of principled living. Whether you’re in recovery, working in the treatment space, or simply seeking a deeper understanding of authentic leadership, Steve’s words will resonate. 📍Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Steve Lee from Cumberland Heights • [01:00] The Cheeseburger Story – A life lesson in acceptance • [03:00] Starting a New Career at 58 – From family business to treatment field • [07:00] Questions That Clarify Purpose – What do you love, value, and excel at? • [12:00] Two Hats in Recovery Work – The separation of job and personal sobriety • [19:00] A Job Meant to Be – How trusting the process led to the right opportunity • [24:00] The Power of 12-Step Language – When the message hits the heart • [29:00] What Keeps Steve Coming Back – Spiritual growth and humility • [33:00] Ethics in the Treatment Field – Staying true in high-pressure environments • [42:00] True North in Action – Doing the right thing even when it’s hard • [46:00] Friendship, Change, and Growth – Recovery reshaping connection • [50:00] Cumberland Heights & Arches – Trusted treatment for all ages • [55:00] Final Reflections – Gratitude, growth, and staying in the solution 🎤 Guest Bio: Steve Lee Senior Director of Strategic Relationships, Cumberland Heights Steve Lee brings over 12 years of experience in behavioral health and over 35 years of personal recovery. A former family business leader, Steve made a transformative mid-life career change to work in the addiction treatment field. He is widely respected for his ethical leadership, heartfelt communication, and dedication to recovery-centered care. At Cumberland Heights, Steve focuses on connecting professionals and families with treatment solutions that honor the integrity of the recovery process. 🔑 Key Takeaways: 1. Reinvention at Any Age – It’s never too late to start living your passion. 2. Principled Recovery Work – True ethics come from personal accountability, not company policy. 3. Why We Keep Coming Back – Recovery isn’t just about stopping a behavior—it’s about spiritual growth. 4. Two Hats, One Mission – Personal recovery and professional roles must remain distinct. 5. Cumberland Heights Legacy – A beacon for 12-step rooted, clinically excellent care. 💬 Powerful Quote: “Do my principles hold up when the mortgage is due, when my boss is on me about admissions? A principle is not malleable—it’s either firm or it’s not.” – Steve Lee 📚 Resources & Mentions: • Cumberland Heights Treatment Center: https://www.cumberlandheights.org(https://www.cumberlandheights.org/) • Arch Academy (Adolescent Treatment): https://www.archacademy.org(https://www.archacademy.org/) • Still Waters (12-Step Immersion for Men): https://www.stillwatersrecovery.org(https://www.stillwatersrecovery.org/) 📲 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #SteveLee #CumberlandHeights #FindingNewWatersPodcast #12StepRecovery #EthicsInRecovery #AddictionTreatment #SpiritualRecovery #RecoveryLeadership #ArchAcademy #StillWatersRecovery

< Back to Epsidoes Sheila Maitland How I became a Therapist 30:47 min | Sheila Maitland | Finding New Waters In this podcast episode, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McLendon are joined by Sheila Maitland, the leader of the Relationship Enrichment Center and Experiential Therapy Center in Matthews, North Carolina, to discuss why she became a therapist. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "Experiential therapy is an overarching umbrella to all the action based therapies and it's eclectic.." Sheila Maitland Podcast Transcript Dr. Harold Hong: [00:00:00] All right. Well, thank you for joining us, Sheila, on this episode of Guiding New Waters. We're excited to have you. Shiela Maitland: I'm excited to be here. Thank you. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And thank you Justin for being here. Absolutely. My pleasure. All right, good. Well today we wanna talk about your career in psychotherapy, Sheila. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in deciding to even be a therapist? Shiela Maitland: Sure. , it's a great story. Was fortunate to get into recovery as a 24 year old, and shortly after that I was in some group therapy as a client and I was in sales at the time. and one of the group members suggested I go to onsite workshops, which is a, an amazing place. At the time, it was in the Black Hills of South Dakota. Huh. And it [00:01:00] was an experiential. Workshop. That was so profoundly healing for me that I came home and within six weeks got into grad school. Oh, wow. Because I wanted to do what they were doing. Justin Mclendon: That's Shiela Maitland: awesome. Yeah. Wow. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. and, and now you are leading the relationship in Richmond Center, which is a, I would say it's like a destination referral. I mean, I know that people are traveling Yeah. From all across the country, if not internationally to Charlotte Airport and then staying in Matthews, North Carolina to, to work with your group. I mean, that's a, that's a tremendous point A to point B journey. Could you, how you, you went from graduate school and then to starting your own practice. Yeah. And starting the r e c. Shiela Maitland: Thank you. Well, onsite workshops has been a huge part of [00:02:00] that for me because the work combined with recovery is what has really opened the doors. And. being able to try and apply recovery to all the things that I do and including my work has been so it, it's made it clear what they say in recovery is, if you're not sure, pause. Mm-hmm. . Now, it's not like I've done that perfectly , but I always knew. because of my experience that I wanted to do experiential therapy and a lot of group therapy. And so in my thirties and in the years that I was raising a family, I had the distinct privilege. [00:03:00] Working at onsite every few weeks and months, and it's helped me meet people from all over the world. This experiential therapy is kind of a niche and there's a fabulous group of people that are really drawn to working this way and. it has helped me expand conceptually a systems approach. A systems approach to working family systems is how I work with families. And so using that concept to drive how I'm trying to work with clients employees. Like trying to use the same principle. Mm-hmm. Each part of the system impacts the whole. [00:04:00] And yeah. That has just been amazing to then grow in really just in the last few years into a group practice and, yeah. . Dr. Harold Hong: So the, you the experiential piece is so important for us to hear about. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hate to drop this huge philosophical question on you, but Yes. Can you tell us what is experiential therapy? oi, they . Shiela Maitland: So experiential therapy is an overarching umbrella to all the action based therapies and it's eclectic. , the way I've been trained, it probably draws most heavily from psychodrama, but it also draws from emdr. It draws from somatic experiencing, and it [00:05:00] gives the experiential clinician many, many options to draw. I can use all the different trainings and be able to create something that is action based. Knowing some of the fundamentals to how to do it effectively, how to do it safely, and how to do it honorably. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And what are, what are some times where experiential therapy is just a great. Shiela Maitland: Well, I would say always , because even when I try something experiential to where it doesn't go well, or the client doesn't want to do it, it is so informing. Mm. . Mm-hmm. . It is so [00:06:00] helpful to me as the clinician to see where an enactment might stop because that can be so telling. Or if a client says no, maybe the most powerful thing that happens for their client in that session is my ability to honor their. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So could, I mean to make it a little bit more like tangible Yes. For, for the listeners out there. Yeah. Can you tell us about a time where traditional mentality gets you to a certain point? Yeah. But experiential helps you Yeah. To move beyond. Shiela Maitland: I would love that. So we all have our intake questions. and we read through them before the client comes in. We have a little sense for what's gonna happen, and I can [00:07:00] begin with that narrative. You know? So tell me why you're here. How can I support you today? Mm-hmm. , we begin to hear, and it's making me think about this client that. She had filled out all of her paperwork. Her mother had passed away of like while she was in her twenties. So I had in my mind this whole idea of what was gonna happen. Mm. Because I'm the therapist. you. The expert. The expert, right, wrong. And we could have gone the narrative route. and I could've guided and asked a lot of questions, but instead I took a basket full of scarves and I asked her how she was feeling and she said that she felt isolated. And so I asked her to pick a scarf to represent her isolation. [00:08:00] and she did. And then I asked her, where would you put this on you? And she took the whole scarf and put it over her head. Hmm. And I got her permission and said, can I interview you? Could you roll, reverse and become isolation? Dr. Harold Hong: Interesting. Well, like isolation itself. Shiela Maitland: and she said, yes. And then I said, and let's just pretend her name is Susie. Mm-hmm. . So she enrolled as Susie's Isolation. Mm-hmm. . And my first question to her was, so as Susie's isolation, when did you meet Susie? Well, and this is what was so shocking, because of course I thought it was gonna be when my mom died, but she said, I [00:09:00] met Susie in her crib. Oh, Justin Mclendon: interesting. Yeah. Shiela Maitland: Wow. I would've never gotten that. Mm-hmm. if we had gone the narrative route. Yeah. And tried to get something, which we eventually got there about her mom, but she had such a lived experience of isolation. Mm-hmm. that I would've missed. Dr. Harold Hong: This, this is like session one. Shiela Maitland: Session one. That is so powerful. First 15 minutes of session one. Yeah. By the way. And then I'm thinking, well this is cuz she's in her twenties and she doesn't have all that garbage running around in her brain. Mm-hmm. , right. But yeah, she was phenomenal to work with , Dr. Harold Hong: that, that's just mind blowing to, because I gotta say like most traditional in my experience with my peers in traditional therapy, like it would be an achievement. To get to that depth of insight. Yeah. Maybe [00:10:00] six, 12 months later. Right, Shiela Maitland: right. Absolutely. Well, it, yeah. They don't all go like that . Sure. But that was, it took my breath away. It, it supports me relying on the tools rather than what I think I know. Mm-hmm. , because the client will. share something that I had no, no idea was coming. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: yeah. You know, and I, I would imagine, and I don't know, right, because I, as a clinician have not done a lot of, I barely any experiential therapy. I've, I've seen a lot of it, but as a practitioner, that's just not my, that's not my modality. Closest thing would be some gestalt type stuff. Yeah. , but I can't imagine because I, I've always thought that, you know, just one of the limits, I guess to just kind of traditional talk therapy, regardless of what modality you're using is, is exactly that, that you're kind of, you're talking and you're limited to, like the [00:11:00] things that you are aware of or the insights that you can develop to through, you know, cognition. Right? Yeah. But I just imagine the experiential, the physical piece of it probably just brings a whole new element to the, to the game, so to speak. Right. . Shiela Maitland: Absolutely. And it also accesses the other side of the brain. Mm-hmm. the part of the brain that does have all the feelings, and that is where the memory is. Mm-hmm. . And it's so different, like, you know, to hear the client who can narrate their story of abuse and rattle it off like they're rattling off. Chick-fil-A order. Sure. Hmm. And then learning some techniques to help them tell their story in a different way in some action that connects to [00:12:00] that part, to then heal that part, not the narrative. Th there's no healing required there. Right. But the locked away part, the part that might drive them to ward off relationship, or the part of them that might encourage them to medicate. Mm-hmm. to unlock that part is. What I think experiential therapy does so gently and profoundly. Justin Mclendon: That's awesome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It's very cool. Yeah. I'm excited. I feel like I should do some experiential therapy. . Yay, . Shiela Maitland: We would love Justin Mclendon: that. I would too actually. Yeah. We should we should Dr. Harold Hong: set that up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's a a book came out a few years ago called The Extended. Yeah. I dunno if you've heard about this, but what you're talking about brings that [00:13:00] to my mind. Yeah. Uh, So the, the extent in mind, it's talking about breaking this illusion that the brain is a computer. Mm. Right. The brain is not a computer like we, we are, we are living beings. Yeah. Who ex exist across time. And we have senses and those senses influence our thoughts and our thoughts influence our feelings and our feeling. influence our senses. Yeah. And so I, I'll say having done experiential therapy and similar to, to your path is going to onsite and experiencing ex psychodrama. Mm-hmm. It, it took me to depths of insight that I didn't even imagine were possible. , and I think it, it, it, a lot of it had to do with using my whole body, like picking up the scarves and the, all the [00:14:00] fabrics. Right. Some of them are satin, some of them are coarse. Yep. You have burlaps, you have silks, you have it all. And they smell a certain way. They feel a certain way and it, it stirs so much memory. Right. And, and, The depth and the engagement just goes to all the way, like very quickly. Mm-hmm. . So it's a very powerful way of interacting with people. But I gotta say, I felt so skeptical. Yeah. my biggest fear, like on the plane to now, it's that just outside of Nashville in Cumberland. First my biggest fear was I would just be so embarrassed. Right. doing the psychodrama. Do people talk to you about this anticipatory embarrassment of psycho drama? Because it seems quite corny or quite right, you know, like Right. Forced in some ways. Yeah. So how do people get over that? Shiela Maitland: I think having the permission to stop at any point [00:15:00] is one way. that you don't have to do anything that you don't wanna do. And so often starting small and a small piece of work like, so that, that story that I shared about the woman with the scarf mm-hmm. and isolation, I mean, the actual time that she had that scarf over her head, you know, that might've lasted. Five to 10 minutes. And then the rest of the time we didn't continue with the scarf over her head. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But it was a snippet. It was a vignette, it was a little piece to then make it safer to do more. And then the introduction of, you know, of course she came into one of my groups, okay. Mm-hmm. . And it was so easy for her to trust me. and to trust the process. And [00:16:00] usually we don't start with a giant psychodrama. We start with joining. We start with creating safety in the group. We start with the soci geometry or the how is it that we know each other and how are we connected and the reduction of. Anxiety and tension naturally increases our spontaneity and our ability to maybe do something. that I didn't think I could do 30 minutes ago. Mm-hmm. , because I feel safer. I don't even know the words to define why, when I saw that 30 minutes ago, like, hell no, . But now I'm doing it. Now I'm doing something that is new to me and I'm curious about it, and I have permission [00:17:00] to stop and yeah. . Hmm. So, yeah, that's, that's what I would say about that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Interesting. I mean, what I hear, what, what, what stirs in me when you, I hear you say those words, Shah, is there's freedom in safety. Yeah. But we're a lot of people who are going into these treatment environments because they grew up in dangerous environments. Like where you, you have to feel emotional. and there's nothing you could do about it. Yep. So it's such a big leap to tell people you have the right to be safe. Mm-hmm. Shiela Maitland: Well, and I think all of that comes online pretty quickly when you go somewhere. , whether it's a place like onsite, whether it's coming here to new waters, [00:18:00] when you're asked to let go of your medicating, and then when you have to give up that phone mm-hmm. very quickly we begin to reconnect relationally. We have to, we have to ask somebody. to know where the bathroom is. We have to ask somebody, what are we doing next? What's the schedule? I don't have a phone. I don't know. I'm, I'm like this awkward human being. Mm-hmm. , who maybe 24 hours ago was stacked in all the work that I have to complete or. medicating in some other way, and now all of a sudden I'm a lot more raw. I'm a lot more vulnerable, and I'm forced to connect, which I [00:19:00] think makes it idea ideal for people to then. consider trying new things. There's, it's difficult to hide for more than 24 or 48 hours when you have nothing to hide behind. Right? Right. And so being told that you can say no, and that observation is participation. . Well, good. Because in the beginning I might just need to watch a few times and judge the hell out of everything. Right. Which is me. Yeah. Until I felt safe enough to not judge and mm-hmm. and to be accepted to take a risk and not have everybody. look at me like I had two heads, but in fact nod their head and like I'm part of the group. Yeah. [00:20:00] Dr. Harold Hong: Healing. Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I'll say like, I, in full disclosure, I, I actually am a student of Sheila's. I'm in the relationship experiential training process with Sheila at the R e c and I would say, Sheila, one thing about you. when you talk about safety. Yeah. You, my impression of you is, you know what you're doing. Mm-hmm. And you take it very seriously. And so that takes great skill, right? To, to convince people or to be a credible exponent of safety. Cuz I've, I've certainly seen others who will say like, you're safe. Don't worry about it. . . And immediately you feel Yeah. In danger. But all this is to say that I, I think every, every kind of therapist, especially early in their career a question in the back of their mind is, how do I develop this skill? Yeah. To be this kind of therapist? And I think experiential, given that it's so non-linear it seems like a very [00:21:00] daunting skill to develop. Mm. So I would love to hear a little bit about your history and your. And going from this graduate student to a trainer. Shiela Maitland: Well, thank you Dr. Hong. And thank you for the plug . I love that you're in the training group. That's really means a lot. So the truth is I've learned about it by making a lot of mistakes. And so often, even in the mistake, something profound has happened. Hmm. And for me, that helps me. I really have a faith that is guiding me, that's beyond what I could ever come up with, thank God, because I can't take the courage, nor can I take the. , absolutely. And trying to teach clinicians [00:22:00] about that fine line in being less central in the room. But my job is to do everything in my power to keep it safe. And I think how I've learned the most about that is, Learning what feels safe for me and finding safety in my own body and in my own recovery, first and foremost. And then experiencing when a client is brave enough to say that they don't feel safe, or they feel as if I've run over them. Mm-hmm. and to not. tell them they're wrong, which is what of course I want to do. You're just misunderstanding it. You're, yeah. . They're feeling what they're feeling and to adopt, [00:23:00] even if everything in my body is saying defend, it's to try to be curious. Mm-hmm. , you know, tell me where that happened, at what moment I really hear and I believe, how scared you are right now. I'm tracking with you right here and now. Wow. That that is what I've seen and learned as to what helps somebody come back online or what helps to regain the safety. . I've also had to own in a group when I've violated our own guidelines, you know, when I've made it unsafe. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. When I haven't managed the time. That's a really good example of violating or making a group unsafe. [00:24:00] And I know lots of therapists. , and I've been one of them who have thought that if I extend my session a few minutes that my clients will like me more. Mm-hmm. . But I've had a few of them get upset. Right. Because they were going somewhere or doing something like as though I could pad the deck mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and get them to light. I don't know. Mm-hmm. , it's such an example of where. I can own when I have done something to make the group less safe or I've gotten out of alignment to the guidelines. Yeah. And that, that seems to really help in the course correction. Mm-hmm. , I think another way as a therapist that I've learned about that is, when in [00:25:00] my groups, one of the guidelines is, of course you have the right to pass. And when I have heard somebody say they want to pass, but then I've gone after 'em, Ooh, big mistake. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And really, again, feeling so defensive about why I did it. When in fact I broke the guidelines, right? Mm-hmm. , and what I've learned is that when somebody wants to pass, it's really a test. It's not only a test for me, but it's also a test as to whether or not, cuz sometimes a group will encourage, right, nudge, put pressure and am I gonna keep it safe? Mm-hmm. , that is another place I think that then makes a. When they see the safety, feel, the safety, they drop into more truth telling. Dr. Harold Hong: [00:26:00] Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You know, that's interesting. And I, I love that concept. And I can, you know, I'm just relating here because, you know, I think as a, as a greener version of myself as a therapist, you know, there was those times where I, I really valued like, You know, we're gonna push this person to be vulnerable. Right? Like, they don't know what's best for them. We're gonna push them to be vulnerable. Yeah. And I remember exact situations where it's like, well, maybe we shouldn't have done that. You know? Right. That really blew up. Yeah, absolutely. But they need, yeah, but they need it. Right? We know best. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But she was saying, , you have to have those moments. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. In order to grow, I think. Right. And to know how to, you know, provide a space where people can get the healing that they need in a more effective way, I think. Right. We gotta, yeah. We gotta fall down before Dr. Harold Hong: we can Right. Run. I, I, I was, I was not expecting that answer. She, when you, when, when you, when I asked you, how did you get this go? I thought you were gonna say it was like, these experts, these trainings. Oh [00:27:00] my God. These books . But you're saying it's mistakes and. or spirituality. I love that. But I would also say, I mean, as, as someone coming from the medical side where mistakes are not allowed Hmm. Even though they happen all the time. Right. And let's talk about that another day. Okay. Okay. It's terrifying. Yeah. To make a mistake and the, there's immediately. Right. I, if you're an intern, you're a resident in training at like a high expectations institution, they will ask you things like, what's wrong with you? Mm-hmm. , like, why did you make this mistake? And it's terrifying. And that terror inspires you or motivates you to do it better the next time you're there. But it's, it's very fear-based, right? But I, I think it's a huge impairment to our. Right. That we can't face our mistakes and we can't reflect on them. We just have to avoid them. So I mean, the, the wisdom that you bring to this is tremendous. But also [00:28:00] it, it talks a lot about what you began with, which is doing that work for yourself. Yeah. Right. To fight through and be free of that shame. Right. To not be encumbered by it. Shiela Maitland: Well, and to continue. Yes. You know, like, not done. Right. Continue. You know, I continue because I. I, I believe in the parallel process, and I'm also an advocate of, yes, do lots of trainings and read lots of books, and I think it's that vulnerability and the ownership that is, Well, mm. I I can't expect others to be vulnerable and own stuff if I'm not also mm-hmm. . Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, this has been such a, a special time to hear [00:29:00] and spend this conversation with you, Sheila. I hope we you'll Shiela Maitland: come back. Absolutely. Thank you for, it's for having me, Dr. Hong. Thank you Justin. My absolute pleasure having you. Thank you. New waters. Yeah. I love what you guys are doing. Thank you. Thank Justin Mclendon: you. Thank you, Shuah. Likewise. Dr. Harold Hong: And thanks. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Guiding New Waters. Shiela Maitland: My pleasure. Show Notes In this episode, they speak with Sheila Maitland, a renowned therapist, about her career in psychotherapy and the role of experiential therapy in helping people heal. Sheila shares her journey of how she got into psychotherapy and how her experience in recovery and group therapy led her to graduate school and eventually starting her own practice, the Relationship Enhancement Center (REC). Sheila explains what experiential therapy is and how it draws from various therapies to create an action-based approach to healing. Through personal anecdotes, Sheila showcases the power of experiential therapy and how it can help clients move beyond traditional mentalities to find healing. Join Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McLendon as they explore the world of psychotherapy and learn from the best in the field on "Guiding New Waters." Shiela Maitland Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/ (https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/) Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/ (https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/) Website: https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com (https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com/)

Join us on episode 5 of our podcast where B. Reeves, Director of Admissions and Outreach, and Ryan Jarrell, Continuing Care Coordinator, interview Nash Redwine, a former client of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. < Back to Episodes Nash Redwine The Power of Surrender 32.46 min | Nash Redwine | Finding New Waters In episode 5 of our podcast, we talk to Nash Redwine, a former client of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, NC, about his life-changing journey. Hosted by B. Reeves and Ryan Jarrell, we discuss Nash's story of surrender, recovery, and the importance of trusting professionals during the process. Listen to Nash reflect on his experience and don't miss this candid conversation about overcoming addiction and embracing a new life. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "You know, like a lot of things in my life, I've been very blessed to be in the right place at the right time." Nash Redwine Podcast Transcript #005 Nash Redwine B. Reeves: [00:00:00] Did you do 90 meetings in 90 Nash Redwine: days? I did. So the, the 90 meetings in 90 days I did, I didn't really get the whole logic behind it, which is I didn't question it, which is good. I mean, I, I, I think that's important. I think that when you're in, when you're, when you're working on recovery, A big part of the surrender is setting aside your own ideas and your own education and your own mindset of what you think is good for you in listening to the professionals. Nash Redwine: Mm-hmm. Listening to the people that you've entrusted your care and wellbeing to, to, and some. Sometimes that's just a blind faith. And a blind trust that you say, you know what, I'm not gonna question why they're asking me to do it. I'm just gonna do the work. B. Reeves: Yes, good morning or good afternoon. My name is B Reeves. I am the Director of Admissions and Outreach at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I'm sitting here [00:01:00] today with my friend and colleague, Ryan Gerald, who is our continuing care coordinator and really happy to have Nash Red Wine, who was our second client who, who came on our first day when our doors first opened October. B. Reeves: Back in the fall. And we're very honored to have him here today. And so we just are gonna have kind of an open conversation about, you know, how we all ended up finding help what life has been like, you know, a short version of what it was like, what happened and what we're like now. And I will just, I'll start with Ryan and just sort of throw it over to him about kind of what he does. B. Reeves: And then I'll talk for two seconds about what I do and then we'll talk to Ryan Jarrell: Nash. Absolutely. And guys, it's great to sit with you this afternoon in Nash. I just wanna let you know like your. You're like a legend around here. Okay. People bring up Nash. True. And it's always just for like all the positive traits that we want in like a former client. Ryan Jarrell: So I was like super excited to meet you, like when you came out cuz it's just, I saw Nash here. Nash is doing this, Nash is doing [00:02:00] this. Well Nash Redwine: I hope I don't mess things up from here, so. Yeah, I know you got a lot Ryan Jarrell: to live on too. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know that the pressure points, right? No follow up podcast guys. Ryan Jarrell: You guys will know what that means, you know? Yeah. So I'm the continuing care coordinator here, and, and what that means is I work with clients and their families to iden identify the best treatment selection whether it has to do with financial general demographic, et cetera. And I kind of work on the logistical end to make sure it's as smooth a transfer as possible. B. Reeves: Cool. And as director of Admissions and Outreach, my primary job is being the first, first call for when a family in crisis or an individual in crisis needs detox. Or sometimes they don't know what they need, but they call me and I just say, Hey, listen, no matter what, I'm gonna help you figure it out, whether or not we're a good fit. B. Reeves: And I'm in a perfect world. We'll do a bunch of kind of paperwork on the front end, what's called a pre-admission. And then when I, and there are times when I'm also out on the road talking about our program and vetting out others in the process. But back to that pre-admission in a perfect world, we get a call and then when I talk to 'em for 30 or 45 [00:03:00] minutes, make sure that they're a good fit. B. Reeves: But every now and then we have somebody who just shows up, and that was the case with Nash. One of my oldest friends I've known my entire life called me and said that he was on his way over and he had somebody with him who needed help and. Nash was our first walk-in our second client ever in our first walk-in. B. Reeves: So you wanna talk Nash Redwine: a little bit about that day and what that was like? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that day was October the fifth of 2022. It was a Wednesday. And and I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea where I was going, and I didn't really care. I was in such a a position of Of, of distress or weakness or you know, I don't even, I, I, I know I surrendered that day, but I, I wouldn't say that I felt like that I was in, in that mindset. Nash Redwine: Other than I just kind of, it was, it was tough. And specifically I remember the ride over here because that guy that you were mentioning, he and my other business partner. We're at my house and we were just talking through opportunities or options and you know, the one guy said, Hey, you know, what do you think about [00:04:00] going to an AA meeting? Nash Redwine: And I was like, absolutely not. And or, and I was like, I won't do that. I don't, I, I felt so horrible that I just, I couldn't con, I couldn't conceive going into a room of people who were trying to get well. And we, and we decided to take a chance on this facility cuz we had, we had heard about it, the, the, the opening or the pot, the pending opening, not knowing anything other than it existed. Nash Redwine: And, and a little bit about what it may do. So on the way over here, my, my business partner had called and left a message. B called us back in the car. And while we're riding in the car, the guy that is being B is known forever. He's in the backseat and he says, B, this is such and such, and B's. Nash Redwine: Like, oh my God, are you the one that's coming in here? And that guy said, no, no, it's not me. And I said and then I, when I spoke up and I said, no, B, my name is Nash. I'm the one that's coming. And we came in pretty hot and the [00:05:00] facility had just opened that day and probably only a, a few hours old. Nash Redwine: Literally like three hours. Yeah. And, and you guys were not taking walk-ins basically as a, as a business model for all, for all the right reasons I'm sure. And and but you were kind of generous and could see that, that I was obviously in need and You know, like, like a lot of things in my life, I've been very blessed to be in the right place at the right time. Nash Redwine: And I don't know how else to say it other than that. And this place was the right place at my wrong time. And be told me when I got here. He said, I know this is gonna sound hard to believe or imagine, but this, this is gonna be the worst day of your life and the best day of your life, maybe at the same time. Nash Redwine: And. And certainly I know that now I'm grateful to have found my way here and, and, and gotten the start that I got in, in the program of recovery that I'm in today and on the journey that I'm on today. So grateful to be here. I'm grateful to be able to give back and offer [00:06:00] any kind of experience or advice or whatever for anybody else that's out there that may end up watching this someday. Nash Redwine: So thank you for inviting me. Thank you for having me. And and, and thank you for what you guys do. I know it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough way to make a living. So that's it for now and we'll, we'll keep on talking. How you Yeah, B. Reeves: man. Well, thank you so much for being here and kind of wanted to throw it over to you just. B. Reeves: But when he was talking, it made me think about something that I haven't thought of as much lately. And I used to talk to families about this a lot, and I feel like we all have a finite number of windows of opportunity just to begin our recovery. And you know, sounds like in your case, you know, you were at kind of a, a, a bottom and in, and in that moment you found yourself, you know, at our, at our. B. Reeves: You know, my case was a little different, but the same as, you know, I found myself into a treatment center too when I was at a bottom. And I don't, I don't want to find out cause I know people who have had several opportunities and to get better and stay better. [00:07:00] And some people who have not made it to find that other opportunity or even had. B. Reeves: One window of opportunity and just kind of from what you see, not only in your, your work life but in your recovery life outside of work, like kind of touch on that, you know, these windows of opportunity and being in the right place at the right time in order to begin one's recovery. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely, and I mean I think Nash, you really hit on like. Ryan Jarrell: What is so essential, like recovery cannot begin until a person is ready to seek an answer. Right? And my experience in like personal recovery was I had all the answers. Like I knew exactly what I needed to do at any given point in time. Like I knew I just needed to get a little bit more money. People needed to get off my back, other people needed to treat me this, that, or the other way. Ryan Jarrell: And. When these external life circumstances like kind of lined up, I would be okay. And I believe that my internal disarray was due to the fact that externally things weren't working out the way that I wanted to. And you know, I think when we get in recovery in nash, I think the moment that you spoke about when you wrote in is when you realize, [00:08:00] no, I have to work up on my internal self. Ryan Jarrell: And the external self is is gonna be what it's gonna be. That's the ultimate state of surrender that people have identified as a key moment in recovery for 90 plus years. You know? The issue with that is the number of fears that kind of swim around and, and well around in you as you engage in that, in that feeling of surrender. Ryan Jarrell: I definitely personally, like I went to detox, they gave me a bunch of suggestions. I took none of them. And surprise, surprise, guess what happened? 20, literally 20 minutes from when I discharged from the facility I'm getting messed up again. And you know, it was that moment of the second, third, fourth day I'm, Stack of Bibles, polygraph tests I will never use again. Ryan Jarrell: Come seven days and 20 minutes later when I'm left to my own devices. And we all know, you know, kind of what went on. And then that was months more of chaos. So I had personally, like I had, I had a lot of doors open and, and a lot of doors closed. The blessing in my life was that, You know, when I wasn't doing the right thing, my family and friends, they really weren't there for me. Ryan Jarrell: Like, understandably so. There was nothing wrong with [00:09:00] that. But when I was ready to get help, they were there ready to pick me up. And Nash it sounds like that was your experience as well. Is that Nash Redwine: correct? Yeah, absolutely. And, and and they were there, they were available. And I was, and I was honest. I mean, I, I. Nash Redwine: I mean, it really started with a phone call that morning when I was talking to my business partner. He wanted to get together at the office and go through some stuff, and I just said, look, man, I can't, I can't do it. I said, if you wanna come here to my house and talk, you know, I'd be glad to talk to you. I said, you know, he said, but I'm not, I'm, I'm not doing well. Nash Redwine: And he said, well, what's going on? And I said, man, I can't quit drinking. And I didn't have, I mean, the thing about it is, is that day I could have said, look, just leave me alone. I could have said, I need some space, I need some time. I need whatever I. And I just, I needed to be honest at that moment, and I was, and, and, and he was already probably aware that things were not right. Nash Redwine: And and luckily enough, I, I had him and some other people in my life that were [00:10:00] paying attention and, and that were present and available for when I was ready to have an honest conversation about the frailty of the position I was in. They were there and, and ready to, to, to, to lend a. B. Reeves: Love it. Yeah. B. Reeves: Just since you're here, it made me think too, you know, this is you know, we are a seven day detox and when you came we were, I think only five Yeah. Was our minimum then. Yeah. So, but, but you know, the very, very tip of the iceberg. And then you went on to residential treatment for 45 days. 42, yeah. B. Reeves: 42 days. And Ryan's main job is to get people like you to continue their treatment, which is, can prove difficult. But then, but then even then, that's still training wheels at some point. And it's different for everybody, whether we go to just detox or, you know, treatment for a year. At some point the training wheels are off, right? B. Reeves: And it's time to, you know, do this on our own with the help of sponsorship and, and, you know, a recovery community. But in terms of being kind of told what to do every day by a treatment center. [00:11:00] And so kind of tell us what you're doing on a daily basis to you know, just to stay sober Nash Redwine: and. Yeah. So I, I, I'll just, I'll just hit very quickly kind of on my, my journey through new waters and then into treatment and what it's been like since then, if that's okay. Nash Redwine: Yeah, please. So came in here, like I said, on a Wednesday, October the fifth. And really didn't know what I was doing, didn't know what I was getting into, but I was just ready for help. Whatever that help was gladly handed over my telephone, the keys to my vehicle and my, my wallet, and I said, take it, take it all. Nash Redwine: I'm, I'm blessed with a, a wonderful one, loving wife and, and, and children, and I've just kind of, I shut the door on them and everything else, and I was comfortable walking away from the world for a while while I just focused. Own me. And you guys were so good that by Saturday, a few days later, I was convinced that I was well enough that I was gonna be mm-hmm. Nash Redwine: Released from here and sent on a, you know, sent on home to start going to some type of, you [00:12:00] know, outpatient type program in the community, if that was this or that, or whatever it was. And I thought, wow, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm already doing so much better three or four days into this thing. I'm so clear and, and, and clearheaded and, and feeling good that that's what they're gonna do. Nash Redwine: But thanks to this program and the people here at the time, they made a very strong suggestion along with the guidance of my family members that I needed more treatment. So I went to another facility that's in Western North Carolina and spent it's a six week program there and spent six weeks there. Nash Redwine: And that was invaluable as well. I, I know that I would not have done as well there accepting the curriculum accepting the help and treatment there if I didn't have my start here at New Waters. And I think that's, that's big because I think when you're, when you're in a, in a, in a difficult situation, like I. Nash Redwine: You need some [00:13:00] time to just decompress and get well, physically and mentally before you start trying to work on greater physical and mental challenges. Mm-hmm. Of, you know, learning, you know, learning this, the stuff you need to learn in recovery. You know it's, it's, it's kind of heavy material in the fact that it's very. Nash Redwine: Introspective or self-oriented, and it's not an easy topic to, to work through and it's not an easy time to work through that stuff. So coming into a treatment facility, for me that was inpatient with a clear head and a good start like I got from here was, was huge. And my willingness and my honesty there to work on myself and to be present with the people that were in the program there, I know was important and and helpful. Nash Redwine: I got outta that facility on Sunday, November the 20th, and that was a Sunday before Thanksgiving. Hmm. I could have stayed there longer. I could have done some deeper diving there. And I think that, that they [00:14:00] have a great program to do that type of work and I suggest that people, if they have the time and the financial resources to do it, to continue to fall through there for me. Nash Redwine: I was frankly ready to get home. It was gonna be Thanksgiving that week. I felt strong enough in my foundation of my recovery to feel good about leaving there. I felt like coming back to Raleigh where I live in a community where I've got a lot of family and a lot of friends, and I've got a lot of friends in recovery that have been recovered for, for a long, long time. Nash Redwine: I felt like I was coming back to an environment where I had a really great opportunity to continue the work that was there. So I, I, I, that's why I felt okay leaving after six weeks. And I think that's a lot of time to get, and I, and I knew I was not, I knew I was, no. And so I also knew and was firmly committed to the fact that I was not finished with my recovery and I was just, we we at, at the treatment facility I was in, we. Nash Redwine: We [00:15:00] called it a running start. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And you knew you were just getting, you were hitting a lot of different topics and you were only getting to, you know, barely to the surface level and you were not do, doing the deep dive that you need to do to figure out why you're doing what you're doing. Nash Redwine: Mm-hmm. So since I've been out I've been going to meetings with you know, Groups that are in my community to work on work on my program of recovery. I do that every day. I see a therapist probably once a week on, on, on on a regular basis. Did you do 90 meetings, 90 days? I did. So the, the 90 meetings in 90 days I did, I didn't really. Nash Redwine: Get the whole logic behind it, which is, I didn't question it, which is good. I mean, I, I think that's important. I think that when you're in, when you're, when you're working in recovery, a big part of the surrender is. [00:16:00] Setting aside your own ideas and your own education and your own mindset of what you think is good for you in listening to the professionals. Nash Redwine: Mm-hmm. Listening to the people that you've entrusted your care and wellbeing to. Just to, and some, sometimes that's just a blind faith and a blind trust that you say, you know what, I'm not gonna question why they're asking me to do it. I'm just gonna do the work. Mm-hmm. And so I did the 90 and 90 as I was suggest. Nash Redwine: And, and, and, and in going through that commitment you, you understand pretty quickly the logic and the genius of, of doing that work. And, you know, and, and I did more than that. If it's one meeting a day and for 90 days, it's not three meetings a day, then skip the next couple of days. Mm-hmm. It's 90 meetings, you know, it's a meeting a day for 90 days is kind of a, a minimum. Nash Redwine: And I, and I, I went beyond that. There was, you know, there was. There's one day when I did I think one therapist appointment in three meetings in a given day, so you can kind of get [00:17:00] wrapped up in it and I don't know how you do too much of it, but you know, I certainly gave it a shot. I So the surrender that got me to, to new waters and then I had to surrender again when I left new Waters with the advice that I'd go somewhere else. Nash Redwine: It was a really hard pill for me to swallow. When I thought on that, on that Saturday that I thought that I was getting a pat on the back and you know, Hey, you're doing great. Get back in the community. That was a hard, that was a really hard thing for me to have to accept because at that point I was already feeling better. Nash Redwine: Right. And I was starting to exercise that old good self will and that self, that self-knowledge of, Hey, I'm, I, I think I've got a handle on this thing. B. Reeves: Yeah. That's something I wanted to touch on and talk to you about too. Mm-hmm. Is that, We see this a lot. You know, you, I I, I actually kind of forgot that you, like, I have this memory of you that you were like, oh yeah, anything, but you did, you put up a little bit of a vibe. Nash Redwine: I, I, and then when I, I, I said, Hey, now wait a minute. Yeah, let's talk about this a little bit. And then, and then it really took me about 24 hours of, of, of reflection. [00:18:00] And I said, you know what? I, I'm not ready. Yeah. I'm, I'm nowhere near ready. And so, You were willing? I was, I was willing. I wasn't as willing as when I first came in here, but that's, that's the, that's the beauty of surrender. Nash Redwine: That's the beauty of surrender. When I got here, the, the beauty of surrender while I was here and the beauty of surrender once again, when I got to that facility where it was like another, just another aha moment or another, wow. This is really happen. Yeah. You know, it's, it's surreal what you're going through. Nash Redwine: It's heavy stuff, you know, and you're, and you're, you're willingly saying to yourself and to the people around you, yes, I'll do this. I'll go away from my family and my loved ones. I'll surrender my freedom for a new freedom. Mm-hmm. B. Reeves: Exactly. And also the thing about, you know, when you're talking about feeling better, I know, I, I talk to families about this all the time, especially when they, when they come to detox. B. Reeves: And then they're [00:19:00] on fire like you were. Mm-hmm. And then, then when it comes time for Ryan to find that place for 'em to go, then they look better. They sound better. They feel better. You know? And especially if the families are new to this, you know, they see their, their loved one and that loved one speaking a new language. B. Reeves: And it, it is a lot better than they were seven days ago, but nowhere near ready for the, for the real world again. And so there's this false sense of confidence that comes. From de from detox only sometimes where people get so much better than they were really fast. And then they go back out there in the world when they don't take suggestions and it doesn't usually end well. B. Reeves: Is that absolutely. Your Ryan Jarrell: experience with that? Yeah, absolutely. So we, you know, I think one of the, the misapprehensions surrounding like substance use disorder right, is it's something that just exists in the body. We're a medical detox and what we do is we treat a a physical dependence upon the substance of choice, whether it be alcohol or other. Ryan Jarrell: However, what I reflect to families [00:20:00] constantly is they, they need to look back and, and see, okay, there was a physical addiction to a substance. How did that come about? Why did your mental coping skills lead you to the substance to such a, such a degree that your body is now physically addicted to it? Ryan Jarrell: Because we can. We can put you right, like you were before you started drinking again. But if, if we don't address the DR the issues that caused you to drink in the first place, you're gonna be right back at it. And we've unfortunately and tragically seen that play out time and time again where we have clients that they are feeling better. Ryan Jarrell: They're doing better. They don't think they need this next level of suggestion because the physical dependence is removed. They're in a controlled situation. They, I think when people tell me they honestly can't imagine drinking, I mean, I did the same thing. I don't think these people are lying to me at all. Ryan Jarrell: I think they, what they are doing is underestimating the, the. The strength of addiction and disease and the way that it can twist our perception and our thinking. And that, and that's a, that's a really hard thing to attempt to interrupt, you know? It's a really hard thing for families and it's a really hard thing for individuals. Ryan Jarrell: They [00:21:00] have to trust some people, me be, and some other people who they met 48 hours ago and they have no idea. You know what I mean? Reasonably, what our motivations are. So to have that level of trust and have that level of surrender Nash, you know, it's not, it's just such a. To be able to have that and, and, and roll with that resistance and just say, I, I'm just gonna take, take these people. Ryan Jarrell: I'm gonna see them as genuine, and I, and I'm gonna take their suggestions. Nash. You know, I think hopefully there are people listening to this who they're right about to engage in the recovery journey, or there are family members that are about to engage in the recovery journey and they're just right on that edge. Ryan Jarrell: And like I've been on that knife's edge. You've been on that knife's edge, B's been on this knife's edge, and I was wondering if you could give any advice or suggestions to people who are maybe thinking about engaging in a detox or rehabilitation process. But they don't know what to expect Nash Redwine: next. Yeah. Nash Redwine: So you know, It's funny, I, when I, when I was in my active addiction and drinking really heavily, I would spend a lot of [00:22:00] time trying to figure out what the cures for hangovers were, right? Mm-hmm. You know, I would, I would Google this and I would read that and I, and I'd spend a lot of time, right? I would do some research. Nash Redwine: I would do some research and development trying to figure out what, what, what I, what could I do differently? How can I prep this thing the night before so I don't feel like utter garbage tomorrow? And I think that the, the answer is really clear. You just don't drink right? And that's the only way to avoid a hangover. Nash Redwine: I think that what, what people need to be aware of is how dangerous it is to detox off of alcohol and or a lot of other drugs. And it's, it. It's dangerous, obviously in a physical sense. It's very, it is very difficult, I think emotionally and mentally. You know, your body has become chemical chemically dependent on this stuff and I, I don't know. Nash Redwine: I don't know how you can do it any more safely than you guys do it in your environment or in other environments as well. I think it's imperative to [00:23:00] have the best care you can get. To get the best start you can get to, to, to work your way towards recovery. Because if you, if you start with the best opportunity and the best effort, then I think it can go well. Nash Redwine: If it, if it, if it doesn't go well from the beginning and, and if people, people are jaded by the process or the people they're working with, then I, I, you know, then I think you, then you've probably got an even bigger. You know I don't, there's, there's, I spend a lot of money. To get well. Mm-hmm. And I would gladly spend it again if I had to, to double down on the investment. Nash Redwine: And that's what I see. I think people see it as an expense. Mm-hmm. Which is a mistake. Mm-hmm. I see the cost that's associated with it. I see the time that's associated with it as nothing short as an a a as short of an investment. Mm-hmm. It's an investment in you and where else would you wanna spend your money then in yourself? Nash Redwine: You know, and for me, it. [00:24:00] Going to treatment and realizing that I had given up on me a long time ago. Mm. I stopped reading things that, that challenged me. I stopped learning. I stopped growing and I, I got lost in spiritual growth and in, and educational or mental growth. And I think we do that as human beings. Nash Redwine: I think we, you know, we grow up as children being forced to go to school and we are like, These awful educators who are making us get educated and making us be smarter. Mm-hmm. And making us learn how, oh, how about these people that are teaching us how to, you know, get through life and navigate things through life. Nash Redwine: You know, it's, it's really, it's confounding. And when you get in that, that, and when you get into a position where you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm a fool. I've, I've been, I've been trying to, I've been trying to kill myself for. And I've been, I've been blocking out life. And and you start to, you start to see those things when you start to recover. Nash Redwine: I [00:25:00] did anyways, and I start to see, I start to see some of the light and, and getting through that, that darkness and that dark period and I just gotta see, start to see some of the promise of. Living my life in a new direction with a, with a better perspective and a, and a, and a greater sense of, of what it means to be happy, joyous, and free. Nash Redwine: And man, there's a lot of work to be done. Mm-hmm. I got a lot of work to be done. I mean, you know, I think if you, I, I think for people that see people coming from a detox facility, whether it be new orders or another place, and thinking that that their loved ones. Are cured. There could not be anything more dangerous than that. Nash Redwine: They're not. You're not. I was not. Mm-hmm. The worst thing that could have ever happened to me would've been to have been put back in the general population before I had an opportunity to really experience that next level of challenge and growth in in, in [00:26:00] moving towards. You know, it's, it's introspection. Nash Redwine: Mm-hmm. Right? You gotta just, you gotta focus on you and figure out where you went wrong and, and what you need to do to find some, some serenity, some peace, some, some really, some, some, some focus on life and what you want to do. So good Lord willing. Next week will be six months for me without a drink or a drug. Nash Redwine: I've not had, I mean, I may, may, maybe since I've came into here, I've maybe I've had some cough syrup or something when I had a really horrible cold or sinus infection. I've not taken any Advil or Tylenol for any kind of pain or anything like that. I sleep in incredibly well. Mm-hmm. I was asked on the way in here if I've been exercising a lot and by a guy that that works here, and I said, no, I haven't, because the group I exercise with in the mornings it's just too early. Nash Redwine: I sleep too. Well. I'm, I mean, I'm having too much. I, I, I, life is good in getting better. Mm. And and [00:27:00] I'm not, I'm not interested in what a drink or a drug would do. It can't make, it can't make what I got better. Mm-hmm. I'm convinced of that. But I also know that it's just a daily reprieve every, every day. Nash Redwine: And, and I've just got an opportunity every day to work on me a little bit more and, and just and try and give back a little bit of what I'm here, you know, if I haven't said it already, but I'm, I'm here just to maybe make it that much easier for somebody else to find their way into. And, and that's really what this program and all programs are about in recovery is, is just, you know, letting people know that there is, there is, it, it's a challenging way. Nash Redwine: It's not easy, but it's, it's the more meaningful way to get through life. So I, I, I, I'm around people now on the other side and now that I'm in recovery, it. Hey, here's our friend Nash. You know, he doesn't drink and I'm, I'm the weird one, right? Hmm. I'm not normal cuz I don't drink. [00:28:00] And I'm, and I'm like, when did it ever get, when, when did, when did drinking become the normal way to get through life? Nash Redwine: Mm-hmm. You know, when did drugs become the normal way to get, I mean, why has that gotta be that way? Mm-hmm. It's bizarre. But that's the world we live in and you can't change that part of it until, you've gotta shift some people's mindsets that this is the better way, this is the right way to live. It's where I am and it's where I'm staying and I, I appreciate the opportunity to be here. Nash Redwine: It's, you know, when I was in treatment and getting outta treatment in that facility I was in, and I know that, I know that I had a full appreciation or a fuller real appreciation for what people in recovery have to do. They gotta go to work every day and bust their butts, trying to save people's lives, knowing that a lot of people don't make it, and that's not. Nash Redwine: And Nash Redwine: it's sad. But you know, it's My sister works in a field that's very difficult where she's, [00:29:00] she's in child advocacy, right? Mm-hmm. So she's constantly in, in a, in a world of things that are tough for people. So I'm aware of people who have crappy jobs trying to help other people out and how difficult it is. Nash Redwine: So anything that I can do to give back, I'm all on board. So thanks for your time. Thank you, Nash. B. Reeves: Thank you B. Thank you, Ryan Jarrell: Ryan. Thank you everybody. Show Notes Join us in episode 5 of our podcast as we sit down with Nash Redwine, a former client who went through a life-changing journey at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Our host B. Reeves, the Director of Admissions and Outreach, and Ryan Jarrell, the Continuing Care Coordinator, discuss Nash's story of surrender, recovery, and the impact of the 90 meetings in 90 days program. Discover the importance of setting aside your own ideas and trusting professionals during the recovery process. Listen in as Nash reflects on his experience and the events that led him to New Waters Recovery, from a desperate moment to finding hope, strength, and inspiration. Don't miss this powerful and candid conversation about overcoming addiction and embracing a new life. #RecoveryJourney, #AddictionTreatment, #DrugRehabilitation, #AlcoholismRecovery, #AddictionTherapy, #PeerSupport, #HolisticApproach, #MindfulnessPractice, #RelapsePrevention, #CommunitySupport, #PositiveChange, #PersonalGrowth, #EmotionalHealing, #MotivationalInterviewing, and #EvidenceBasedTreatment are all important aspects of the recovery process. Additionally, #MentalHealthAwareness, #BehavioralHealth, #DualDiagnosis, #TraumaInformedCare, #CognitiveBehavioralTherapy, #DialecticalBehavioralTherapy, #MindBodyConnection, #HealthyLifestyle, #FitnessForRecovery, #SpiritualAwakening, #GratitudePractice, #SelfDiscovery, #FamilySupport, #AddictionEducation, and #StressManagement

Graham Doerge hosts Zumrad Ahmedjanova, a clinical social worker and addiction specialist in a thought-provoking episode of Finding New Waters. Zumrad's cultural anthropology background brings a holistic approach to her work. < Back to Episodes Zumrad Ahmedjanova Exploring Trauma, Attachment Styles, and Somatic Experiencing 45:05 min | Zumrad Ahmedjanova | Finding New Waters In this thought-provoking episode of Finding New Waters, host Graham Doerge sits down with Zumrad Ahmedjanova, a clinical social worker, addiction specialist, certified supervisor, and owner of The Art of Wellness group practice. With a unique background in cultural anthropology and social work, Zumrad brings a holistic approach to her work in therapy and healing. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "The body never lies. You can tell your brain this is what's happening, but the body will show." Zumrad Ahmedjanova Podcast Transcript Zumrad Ahmedjanova: [00:00:00] I think it's how people define what trauma is. And when they think trauma, they think about like a war, war type trauma. Yes. Like they saw something atrocious. Right. Like a murder or, or something like horrible. A trauma can be so, so, uh, not necessarily that kind of a scary, big, atrocious thing, but for a child, let's say, right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I'm talking about a child in this. Trauma can be parents, uh, forgot to, to pick, to pick me from daycare. Yeah, yeah. Or, or left me at the gas station where they were getting gas and everybody got in the car and drove away and then they. Like God, like, or remember, oh, one child is missing, right. Graham Doerge: Let's go back. Graham Doerge: Or it could just be someone, yeah, someone said something to you in a way that Right. You know, maybe it wouldn't have been traumatic to one person, but the way that it was sent to you in that time, in that moment, you took that internal in, you internalized that. Internalized that in a traumatic way. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Exactly. So we so complex like, like our brain and our like system's so complex and just saying it's only one way you can get trauma [00:01:00] and there's no way you can get another. Well, because your parents are perfect and there's actually no perfect parents, right? And let's Graham Doerge: talk about it. Graham Doerge: Good afternoon and welcome to Finding New Waters. My name is Graham Durge and I'm the founder and c e O of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong, and Zoom Rad, AMA Genova. Zoom Rod is a clinical social worker, addiction specialist, certified supervisor and owner of a group practice called The Art of Wellness. Graham Doerge: She spirals her expertise and passion into every aspect of her work. With over 15 years of experience, diverse educational background, [00:02:00] and fluency in multiple languages. Zoom Rodd embodies a unique approach that a phosphorous healthy relationships and embraces the connection between mind and body. Graham Doerge: Guiding individuals and couples through personal and professional challenges. Zira utilizes her vast expertise in addressing emotional problems, offering support and healing. Her commitment to professional growth and collaboration with renowned experts further enhances her ability to provide empathetic and effective therapy. Graham Doerge: In addition to her therapeutic practice, Zara runs couples workshops that offers invaluable guidance and support for relationships. The upcoming upcoming relationship marriage preparation one day workshop on May 7th is tailored specifically for couples who are early in their relationships, providing them with the tools and insights needed to build a strong foundation. Graham Doerge: As a speaker and a supervisor, zoom Rodd shares her knowledge on the bio psychosocial perspective and strategies for emotional wellbeing. Connecting with diverse audiences and clients in a meaningful way in the ever-evolving field of therapy and healing. Zum [00:03:00] Broth stands out as a Profe. Powerfully effective, stands out as a powerfully effective therapist and leader enriched by her deep understanding of cultural identity. Graham Doerge: Our goal in creating new, finding new waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Graham Doerge: Thank you very much for being with us today, Emre. Thank you. It's a pleasure. It's an honor too. Fantastic. Thank, thank you. Well, and um, you know, I, I like to kind of start off, uh, in, in this way because I find it, oh, it's always very interesting to, uh, get a little bit of background and understanding of maybe how you found yourself, uh, coming into this field, how you found yourself doing this type of work and really what, what drives you. Graham Doerge: What, what kind of, uh, brought you to, to work into the behavioral health field to begin? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Well, I did my master's in cultural [00:04:00] anthropology and I was very interested like in the dynamic between like human and society and, and I was going deeper and deeper into that. I got like more into psychology parts of it. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah, because it just cannot separate. Those two just felt like that to me at that time and when it came questioned like, what's next for me? And I was talking at that time with my advisor. Uh, he and, and because I was also new to United States and I was telling this is what my aspirations and this's what I wanna do, and I was thinking of going further, do PhD. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And he asked, do you what? What do you wanna do with your PhD? And that was such a good question. Like what do I wanna do with PhD? So I thought, I really wanna work with people. Hmm. And he said, this is not the right field for you. He said, you probably social work will be a better field for you. Yeah. So that's how I kind of pivoted and I went to uh, to do my social work. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yep. Master's [00:05:00] degree. At unc actually, I got to, I got to u unc and um, that's how the whole process started. Very Graham Doerge: nice for me. Very nice. Yeah. And I know specifically you work, uh, a lot with couples and relationships. Can you, can you elaborate a little bit on that and, and your kind of the modalities that you use around that? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah, so, um, Well, when I start working with, with individuals, like I, I just could not avoid, but like noticing what really affects individuals. Mm. So it's like slowly just doing D B T and C bt that's how it started. And this is how I, we all mostly trained, you know, uh, um, in programs and social work programs. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I start noticing that there's more into that. Like, so the. The past effect people like the childhood effect, you know, the way how they grew up with their parents. Mm-hmm. The attachment styles. So I start like looking for the attachment styles. Yep. Mm-hmm. As I start looking for attachment styles and studying it more, I start learning, oh. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Like in addition to attachment [00:06:00] styles, there is a part of, uh, like how they, uh, regulate themselves. Like, okay, like they have insecure attachment, like mm-hmm. How they can regulate themselves. So I got into sematic experiencing modality, like Yeah, like learning. Um, regulation and how to titrate those, like reg, like titrate the, the, the ways of, uh, discomfort in the body. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And how are, how are you doing that specifically with the somatic? Talk a little bit about the somatic experiences. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: The somatic work. Um, it's, it's, it's a really interesting actually modality because it basically says, That body never lies. Mm-hmm. You can tell your brain this is what's happening, but body will show. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Right? Yeah. And the body's not even on level of, it's kind of like so subconscious. It's very intuitive that sometimes people don't even understand. They just feel. Weird. You know, they don't un, they, they cannot really, really name it or pinpoint and put finger on that. Um, and [00:07:00] the, the sematic work helps to like really get in touch with the body mm-hmm. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And say, okay, what is it I'm really feeling in the moment. Yeah. What's happening. Yeah. It's like some very subtle, subtle things like the way how we look, the way how we, uh, recognize things like it's a milliseconds of memories Yes. Of milliseconds, of like emotions. It's so fast because like the, the neuro pathways in our brain became so, um, So fast when we connect one event, uh, and the trigger that happened before, right? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It just, it happens so fast. How we react to that, it can just take milliseconds. Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Yeah. There's, there's huge research going on these days about interoception. Yeah. Which is the feelings that we receive from our bodies. Mm-hmm. And it, it's, it's breaking up this whole idea. We are our brain. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Like, if, if it's not in our brain, then it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. And we are really depriving ourselves of so much of our [00:08:00] wisdom and our skill when we don't pay attention to our body. And, and it shows up everywhere. Most interestingly is it shows up in traders, so in, you know, on Wall Street. Oh yeah, yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: In London, the traders who listen to their gut about go or dogo do better than the people who develop these elaborate. PowerPoint presentations about things. Interesting. Right. And um, and it's so interesting cuz when it comes to relationships, I feel like there are so many people who have a gut feeling mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: About their partner, but their addiction or mm-hmm. Their social expectation tells them to, to do something else. Yeah. And, and it. Usually it doesn't work out. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: That's right. It's like there's a belief system or societal expectation of family expectation and then my gut and when my gut against all of that. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Right, right. It's just so hard to like, Don't talk Graham Doerge: to each other. Yeah. I'm 31. I should be married. Yes. I should be having kids now. Yeah. A career pass. You know, I'm on this [00:09:00] trajectory, but this person's not the right person, but it's who I'm with now. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Mm-hmm. And I think people get into long-term relationships and where Yeah. Graham Doerge: The people they shouldn't be. Right. That's right. Yeah. So. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. But actually, attachment attachments sound like there's a really interesting New York Times article that came out talking about how TikTok has put so much psychological. Into the world. Mm-hmm. And now it's getting into dating profiles. Wow. Dr. Harold Hong: So when you were talking about attachment stuff, so now it's very common on like, people on Hinge Coffee Meats, bagel Tinder to talk about your relationships style as part of your, your bio. Wow. Mm-hmm. Interesting. That's nice. So, um, but for, there are a lot of people out there who, who've missed that boat. Dr. Harold Hong: Like, you know, if you're mm-hmm. If you're, if you're married in like over 35, maybe you've missed that boat. So I would love it if you could tell us a little bit about what are, what are these attachment styles? Mm-hmm. And why is it helpful to know about Zumrad Ahmedjanova: them? Yeah. Yeah. That's just, um, well, there are four [00:10:00] main attachment styles and different researchers kind of call them differently, but I will call them just. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: To make it simple. Great. There's a secure one, Uhhuh, right? It's where the, in the relationship, we just feel like we can be autonomous and independent and be okay in our own body, in our own thoughts, uh, and feelings and, um, feel like the world is okay and I'm okay. And that's a really. It's secure. That's a secure, right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Right. And then there are three insecure attachment styles. Which one, like one is anxious, one is, uh, avoidant and one is disorganized. Hmm. So, um, and all of them kind of like really interesting how it, it, it, it works together because it's not necessarily that. Let's say I can, if I have ins, uh, if I have secure attachment, I have secure attachment with everybody in my, in my life, in my relationship. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: For example, I might have secure attachment with my mother and insecure attachment with my father. Mm-hmm. Or, uh, avoidant attachment with [00:11:00] my boss. You know, like, and we just can go, like I, we, the attachment style does not necessarily will go for all aspects of my life. Mm-hmm. It will depends on with whom I am and what relat. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Okay. And the more I have of one type of attachment with most of the people, probably, that kind of shows a lot to me. This is what I will bring also to therapy. You know, this is what I will bring to, you know, to my, to my relationship. This is what I will bring to my workplace. Like how do I see the world? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Am I okay in that world or I'm not okay in the world? Oh, I'm the only one. Okay. In the world is not okay. Right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Right. So this is super interesting if mm-hmm. If in couples where you have one person who's sober and another one who's actively mm-hmm. Drinking excessively or using some other intoxicating substance. Dr. Harold Hong: W what do you think is going on with the attachment styles in that relationship that, that keeps them together in this kind of dysfunctional way of being together? Yeah, [00:12:00] but they also think it, it's like dysfunctionally functional is how I've heard some people Zumrad Ahmedjanova: iterate it. Right? Right. So it's land. Two people become one, and that create kind of, um, I don't wanna say it codependent, but I will say like it's symbiotic relationship, right? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: So like mm-hmm. This is where the developmental model kind of kicks in for me because I start looking at things from the developmental perspective. Developmentally, uh, every relationship also go through the stages and just like the same stages that the child would go through, you know, as they grow developmental stages. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: So when the couple is so con, so like enmeshed and when one is using substances, right? And another one is just like not using substances, but staying with it. There is mm-hmm. There's still something is happening where, um, they prefer to act like one person Right. Versus two separate individuals. So being independent, being separate, actually more threatening to [00:13:00] that couple right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Than, um, you. Than being together. So they, yes. They keep staying together because that feels more secure. Right. And that security is a false security because it's security for a short period of time, or for a short time or for the moment. But in the long run, uh, there's a lot of loneliness happening. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Mm-hmm. People really miss each other. Yep. Not connecting, not connecting, not being for each other or, or being in each other's life. And at the same time, not having a strong sense of self. That they can like really hang on to like rely on to, so they keep coming back to that relationship because that's the only thing they know. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Graham Doerge: And I think a lot of times too, it's, it's what they, it's the only thing they know. It's what, and and maybe they were in some sort of a dysfunctional situation growing up and Right. And that's comfortable to them. Right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: That's kind of a weird comfort zone. It's really not comfortable. But that's a known one. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: It's like a familiar Yep. Yeah. If I know [00:14:00] what's familiar, I know how to deal with that, versus if I don't know what's familiar, how can I deal with that? Right. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. Yep. But at the same time, I feel like there, there is this ability to imagine this isn't right, this could be better, or this is not healthy for me. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, but there's many voices going on in their mind mm-hmm. At the same time. Mm-hmm. Uh, so how do you, how do you work with someone? Ne negotiating, do I go left or do I go right on this relationship? Mm-hmm. Do, do I stay enmeshed and in this strange sense of we're very close, but very lonely mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: At the same time, versus we could change and maybe be healthy people and have real intimacy. Mm-hmm. Uh, in recovery. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. That's such a good question. It comes often when people come, you know, uh, to therapy. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, or even the question themselves, like, what do I do? I'm not happy here, but I, yeah. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: [00:15:00] Where, where do I go? So I think the, one of the biggest thing is what, what are my goals for myself and who I am in that relationship? And when people come to me, I usually ask like, There is a, uh, there's a goals for, for you as a couple and, but there's also goals for you as a separate individual. Mm-hmm. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And if you wanna grow as a couple, you have to grow also as individual. Wow. You have to grow as individual. You cannot, um, be in that relationship without that personal internal growth where I see myself as separate. Uh, differentiated person. Mm-hmm. Not en mesh with another person, but like, I'm, and I can, I can rely also on, um, my ability to recognize my own feelings, my own, uh, triggers my own whatever is my own. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Because like in, uh, is in substance use, right? Like, uh, when there's an addiction in a family, uh, [00:16:00] going on, there is love. An attachment, but not to the primary person. Mm-hmm. It's love and attachment to the, uh, drug of choice. Right. Right. There's a relationship there. Oh, a hundred percent. There's no relationship, uh, with another person. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And the question is, do I want to have that secure relationship with my partner or with my parents or with my children, or I keep choosing that love affair that I have on the side. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Wow. Yep. Have you said so, so much there. That's, that's like an hour's worth of Yeah. Of conversation right there. Uh, I, I just think I've, I've worked with people who, you ask them, what do you want in life? Dr. Harold Hong: And they shut down. Mm-hmm. They, they're, they're terrified of that question and they feel shame that they don't know the answer to that simple question. Uh. I, I go back and I, I review with them. Did you, were you ever [00:17:00] taught to have a goal? Like were you ever validated to have your own interests or desires? Dr. Harold Hong: And it turns out like, no, I was always supposed to be a straight A student and be a doctor, or be this or that. Like my parents mapped out my whole life for me. Right. And if I went outside of the box, I would get yelled at or I would get rejected, or I would be told I was stupid. Mm. So I think that can be like a really challenging starting point for people. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. And, and it makes intimacy seem unattainable for people. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, like now you're telling me if, unless I know what I want for myself, I can't have a healthy relationship, well then I'm, I give up. Right. So some people if can feel really overwhelming. Mm-hmm. Um, so how do you, how would you interact with the, a client who, who is not responding well? Dr. Harold Hong: This, in my opinion, like a, a realistic and hopeful vision for the future. Mm-hmm. But to them it's interpreted as [00:18:00] almost impossible. An overwhelming assignment. Yeah. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Well that's by itself is diagnostic. Just, just that kind of vignette, right? Yeah. Um, you see like when there's two ways how developmental trauma, you know, can be imposed by, uh, caregivers, by, by. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Um, two main ones, uh, one when the parent is so anxious and so, um, uncomfortable for whatever reason, maybe for their own personal history, medical history, something is going on in the family. Ancestral trauma, ancestral drama, trauma. The parent is so anxious. So they give the child the, the message the world is not okay. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. There's a danger in the world. Mm-hmm. It's, it's dangerous to live out there. Mm-hmm. And that's, that can be traumatic on a child. And the second way, the, how parents can actually, uh, do that on a child is when [00:19:00] the, the parent themselves overwhelmed again for whatever reason. You know, uh, mental health, you know, medical, uh, something else going on in the family, but they're so overwhelmed. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Kind of like pull attention to themselves and they become needy. Mm-hmm. So the ch and they push the child away where they say you be de like, you cannot depend on me. Like the, the unspoken message, you cannot depend on me. Mm-hmm. So the child grows up, um, being in a way kind of. Uh, independent, pseudo independent. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Mm-hmm. But it's really not independency. They learn how to take care of themselves. So by the time they go to college, if they go to college, right. Uh, by the time they're out of the house, they're so independent. So like IK in quotes, independence. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, so they don't need anybody. It's actually very, uh, threatening to. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: If somebody wants to be dependent on them, because it just like, same dynamic that was in a [00:20:00] childhood, right? So when they are married, they don't understand why the spouse wants, um, connections and be close and tell and share things because for them it's very triggering. Yep. So, wow. And this is like, Two main reasons, right? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Like how, how people get insecure attachment too with anxious and avoidant mm-hmm. Because of those developmental traumas earlier, early in the childhood. And, um, it, it comes oftentimes how people cope with that. And one of the ways of coping is substances. All kinds of substances. And like the most available is that this alcohol, right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Right. But it can be like, uh, you know, other compulsive behaviors, other addictions, like to certain behaviors, you know, working, it can be workaholism, right? Yeah. I'm coming home, I'm bringing money. And why you, my partner. My spouse is like demanding from me something like mm-hmm. Am I not doing enough? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Right? Right. Yep. Right. Graham Doerge: So yeah, I just want to come [00:21:00] home and sit down on the couch and nobody bother me and I work and I should, you know, I should be able to do what I need to do. Right. Yeah. Because Zumrad Ahmedjanova: like, Graham Doerge: this is like, but it's a partnership. Right. And, and you know, you both kind of have a role in that, especially when you have kids Exactly. Graham Doerge: And all that. So, uh, that's a tough one for sure. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: It's a tough one. And what we modeling for children. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Also, Dr. Harold Hong: But if all of this is, a lot of it is coming from attachment style. Mm-hmm. Is, is it like your family is a mold and you leave and you, you're forever molded in that shape? Or is this something that you can re-sculpt? Dr. Harold Hong: Oh Zumrad Ahmedjanova: yeah, absolutely. And that's the good thing, right? About the, the neuroplasticity like and the secure attachment that it can be built. Mm-hmm. It's. It's not forever like it, it requires work, it work, internal work, you know, on self. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's always, we can develop those secure attachments slowly and slowly, you know, with. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Other people around [00:22:00] us. Yeah. And we can develop, like starting with our animals, starting with me, coworkers and friends, Uhhuh. Yeah. And like we, we can expand. We have examples always of secure attachment. Graham Doerge: And I, and I think too, like a lot of it as well is it's, and so Dr. Hong does, uh, genogram with, uh, a lot of our assessment clients or with all of our assessment clients, right? Graham Doerge: So he sits down for a few hours and works through, uh, you know, have you done genograms? Yeah. I would assume. Yep. Mm-hmm. And, um, and it's pretty eye-opening for them, and I think so much of it is just awareness, right? Mm-hmm. It's just the awareness and understanding of like how we have these attachments and where they're coming from and the family history and mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: You know, and when you start to kind of look at the generations back and the genogram, you're like, oh my gosh. And like, I had no idea, but now this all makes sense, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. Totally, totally. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: It's kind of developmental stages there. Like if the child did not go through a certain developmental stage, like for example, autonomy. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Like learning how [00:23:00] to be autonomous and independent. Studying age two. Right from age, like 18 months to three years old. This is like the, the, the first stage of when the child tried to differentiate and say, select me myself, and saying for the first time, no to parents and if parents is overwhelmed or scared or anxious or like all kinds of things, right? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And push child saying, no, you cannot say no to me. How dare you for a two year old kid, right? They're not Graham Doerge: used to that, that Zumrad Ahmedjanova: so like they can, they can overpower child at that. Yeah. But then the second time it comes during the teenage years, when the differentiation comes with most, with more strength because it happens that, um, the hormonal level changes too. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yep. It's like very natural, very developmentally, absolutely appropriate to differentiate again. Mm-hmm. Saying who I am now. Like I'm, I'm trying to understand what's my role in the world. Who, what's my identity? So when they develop that, and parent again pushes that, that becomes dangerous even more. [00:24:00] And so the, the, the child grows up like constantly having this, like, I can't, I can't, I have to like look behind and look like mm-hmm. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Is it, is it okay for me to speak up Right. Have a voice. Mm-hmm. Right. Have a opinion. Um, like or do I need to even to cope with whatever overwhelming feelings I have and what kind of things are available for me to cope with? Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: So it, in the genogram that we talk about, um, it's what always surprises me is it usually begins with the client saying, uh, I had a great family. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was, I couldn't have asked for more, like things like, perfect, loving, warm, cuddly. Everything I could have wanted or needed, like that is how, and that's the story that Graham Doerge: we tell ourselves. Right? Right. And that all comes back to, yeah, this, this perception and the, the attachments that we kind of, uh, that we just kind of present ourselves too, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Right. And, and [00:25:00] then we talk about, well, who, what was this relationship like? Oh, there was a divorce here. Oh, there was an infidelity there. Uh, looks like there was a lot of alcoholism across the family. What was it like growing up in that, in that environment and, and then a word like lonely pops up. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And, and I sense that there's, there's a lot of shame about it, and they don't, they don't want to be, be real about it. Mm-hmm. Um, they feel embarrassed about it. Um, but then as we work through it, they feel a sense of like liberation. Like, like finally. A light has come on and, and like they see a path for themselves. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, to not repeat like the pattern that's been transmitted, generation and generation. Mm-hmm. Um, but it takes a lot of work. Yeah. Like what you were saying, like, so to change your, you know, so a lot of times there's, there's an insecure, anxious, or avoidant or disorganized attachment style across all [00:26:00] those relationships and it's just getting transmitted. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, but when they're, when they come here, they do the detox. They, their, their mind is much clearer and they're thinking straight about where do I want my life to go? Mm-hmm. And, and that is like such a sacred and spiritual moment mm-hmm. Of hope. Mm-hmm. And like, it, it's so inspiring to see that happen. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Um, like regaining Zumrad Ahmedjanova: sense of self. Yes. Yeah. Getting to know like who I am, but Dr. Harold Hong: people are afraid mm-hmm. To see themselves. Mm-hmm. I, I think they come in here feeling afraid to see themselves, feeling afraid. See what they really think or what they really feel about a relationship. Mm-hmm. Uh, but they go through the detox, they go through the, the restorative therapies here, and they suddenly have the energy to, to think about things clearly and honestly. Dr. Harold Hong: And that's really exciting. But there are, there are people who they wanna leave here and they just want to jump back into life. Like they, [00:27:00] they think that they can. Like a 180 effortlessly. Mm-hmm. Just by going back to doing life. And, um, you know, I think it's, they, they truly believe it. And, and I'm not there to say that they, they're, they're being like naive or, or they're making it big iron judgment. Dr. Harold Hong: But I think what's curious for a lot of people is they, they think that this can happen without making a change in their relationship to alcohol. Like they think. My partner can keep using or I can keep using and we can change our attachment cell, we can go back into our history. Mm-hmm. And I, my approach is to be really curious, to be honest, and I'm, I'm curious about what your experience is with that. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, can people stay in their systems, stay in their addictions, and still make progress? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Not my experience, actually. Unfortunately, people cannot really make any changes if they're not addressing addiction. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's. [00:28:00] Like you, you can't have an affair with addiction thinking. Uh, it's, it's, it's really something small. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: It's, it's really not. Um, and sometimes it takes time for a, uh, for a person to come to that conclusion. And it's very humbling actually. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Experience to, to, to finally come to the conclusion like, I can't do it on my own. I need something. Wow. Uh, I, I really need to, to work on that. I really need. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Claim my life back. Yep. Because like, the years, like that lost relationship that has been broken, um, you know, career that has not been done. Like it was so many, it, the time lost and also, uh, respect that they had for themself lost or like, and kind of gaining it all back. Earning it all back takes time. It, it, it takes time. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: And fortunately there are resources out there. Yeah. You know, There are resources out Graham Doerge: there. Well, I also think too, that like even in [00:29:00] early recovery, so much of, um, of it is like breaking that identity. Mm-hmm. Because like, I know for me, when I was. Uh, first getting sober, you know, my whole identity was like the fun party guy went to lots of concerts and like, that was who I was, right? Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden I, I wasn't that person anymore cuz I couldn't do that anymore. Oh my gosh. Identity crisis. Who, who am I? Right? Yeah. And that's a scary thing and, and to just kind of think like, what is my life gonna be like if I can't be doing these things? Which is essentially all I did. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, you know, obviously it's very scary initially the re the reality. You know, the world is our oyster. Mm-hmm. And life is so amazing. Mm-hmm. In, in recovery. It's just hard for us to see that at first. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, but, you know, that's, that's a huge piece, I think is making that connection for people in early recovery and showing them. Graham Doerge: Right. And a lot of us live by example. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and, and you know, that's a big thing, but it's, it's a hard thing to wrap your head around in [00:30:00] those early days. Yeah, Zumrad Ahmedjanova: for sure. That's true. But you, you, you mentioned like you so much on point about identity crisis because it absolutely happens. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. That identity crisis happens after. Getting sober and not knowing what to do. I'm also thinking about like, neurobiologically, what happens to that person? Right? Like the, like how the neurotransmitter is like really asking for, uh, for ends and for, uh, for like serotonin and, um, And I'm kind of blinking on the other one. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Mm-hmm. Dopamine. Dopamine, right? Yeah. Because like it's so much dopamine released and now you, you're not bringing anything for that hungry dopamine. Yeah. A hundred percent. Give me something. So that's very uncomfortable, right? It's so uncomfortable. So like yeah. Having support helps that, that the person is not alone in that. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Hundred percent. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, I mean, I [00:31:00] one Ernie about that though is the people who I know who are in sustained recovery mm-hmm. Would say they are definitely now their true self and, and the person that they thought they were mm-hmm. Was not really them. Yep. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I mean, I almost see it as like act one and Act two. Graham Doerge: Right. And Right. And, you know, my previous life was, you know, that that was, I don't even. Remember that person. Really? Mm-hmm. You know, it's really wild. Um, you know, looking back on that because life is, you know, recovery has given me everything and, you know, my wife and family and kids and, and all these amazing things. Graham Doerge: And obviously a career in working in this field and all that. But, you know, yeah. In, in the beginning, you know, there were definitely some days where, mm-hmm. You know, what is this gonna be like? And um, so I think it's, I think it's just interesting to, you know, just think around that. And, you know, I'd love to talk a little bit more with you too, cuz I know Dr. Graham Doerge: Hong always says this one, this one piece that I love that he says, where there's substance use, there's [00:32:00] trauma, right. Um mm-hmm. And, you know, I'd love to, obviously trauma is a real buzzword these days mm-hmm. In our field. Mm-hmm. But obviously I think it's, it's very, um, You know, it's very valid that, that, you know, we're self-medicating, you know, essentially. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. And, you know, we're using these substances for some reason, and a lot of times that's trauma or there's some underlying issue that we haven't really identified yet. And that's kind of our, our goal is to really figure out what that thing is. Mm-hmm. But talk to us a little bit about, you know, the trauma, the work that you do with your clients mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: And, and all of that. Yeah. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Well, absolutely. Like with substance abuse comes. And sometimes trauma can be like, um, primary and substance abuse becomes, like, the substance use become like a, a, a coping mechanism. Mm-hmm. And the symptom of that trauma a hundred percent. Totally. Sometimes people actually have already, um, they, they develop addiction because of, you know, uh, mental health, you know, or, or something happened earlier.[00:33:00] Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Let's say genetics too, right? Mm-hmm. Like there's genetics play, and then trauma happens while they using substances. So like, it's, it's just constantly all around, whether it's a secondary or it's a primary, but the trauma will happen Yeah. In, in, in person's life. So, um, but without addressing substance use, it'll be really hard to address trauma. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Because person has to mm-hmm. Get first to the place of sobriety. Like, um, and that's the difficult part that sometimes people, because that, that that substance helped them to survive. A hundred percent. So, yes. How can I, how can I let it go if I survived because of using, right? Mm-hmm. What, whatever it's, whether it's it's alcohol or opiates or cocaine, whatever, like I survived because I had that. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: If I wouldn't had that, how can I survive? So, This is how, like what I, what I start doing is [00:34:00] working on differentiation from that. Like learning that you are not that trauma. You are, you are not the, the substances that you're using. Mm-hmm. Like finding who, who I am, like deeply down and Yes. Like the, the part of self-regulation comes in, mindfulness comes in, spirituality comes in. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Mm-hmm. Like learning how to take care of the, the body, how to take care of self, how to take care of like, The thought process, the mind, where the mind goes, like where I'm focusing, where I'm, where, where I'm, uh, channeling my energy because where my energy goes, this is like where my thought goes, this is what I will be end up doing. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think people, they, they react initially like very strongly to the proposition that maybe you, you've experienced trauma. Mm-hmm. And, and they're like, how dare you, right? Mm-hmm. Like, how dare you accuse my parents of being abusive? Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, my, my parents were leaders in the community. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, my parents would never do something [00:35:00] that, you know, like beat me or do something horrible to me, like, that's not my parents. And, and then I say yes. Like that is, that's how we ordinarily talk about trauma. Like trauma is criminal behavior, but just because it's not criminal behavior doesn't mean. Was not trauma. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Mm-hmm. I agree. Same because like, I think it's how people define what trauma is and when they think trauma, they think about like a war, war type trauma. Yes. Like they saw something atrocious. Right, right. Like murder or, or something like horrible. But trauma can be so, so like not necessarily that kind of a scary, big, atrocious thing, but for a child, let's say, right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I'm talking about a child in this case. Trauma can be parents, uh, forgot to, to pick, to pick me from daycare. Yeah, yeah. Or, or left me at the gas station where they were getting gas and everybody got in the car and drove away and then they. Like forgot, like, or remember, oh, there one child is missing, right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Let's Graham Doerge: [00:36:00] go back. Mm-hmm. Or it could just be someone, yeah, someone said something to you in a way that Right. You know, maybe it wouldn't have been traumatic to one person, but the way that it was sent to you in that time, in that moment you took that intern in, you internalized that. Internalized that in traumatic way. Graham Doerge: Exactly. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: So we so complex like, like our brain and our like system's so complex and just saying it's only one way you can get trauma and there's no way you can get another way. Because your parents are perfect and there's actually no perfect parents. Right. And let's talk about that. So like you, you don't have, you don't have to have trauma. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Uh, it's, it's also understanding that how I respond to things, like where, whether my consent has been taken away when I was trying to say something and Yep. I couldn't have my consent. Right. So all this like, things, they're really not really little and at the moment they feel little. Yeah. For somebody, they look little. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Or somebody actually can say, oh, this. Small thing to cry about. Why would you cry about it? Right. This is so small. Stop it. Right, right. Yep. And they're like, oops, I am not, I'm not supposed to. [00:37:00] Yeah. Right. And they're like, Dr. Harold Hong: meanwhile that's, it's the core memory that creates all this dysfunction in their relationship. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Right? Where like the, the partner is working too much, drinking too much, and they have to be quiet about it because they just feel like it's, they're not committing a crime against me. I should just, right. Why should I cry? Yeah. But that, that makes that intimacy in that relationship, which they both want definitely unattainable. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Will definitely affect relationship. Dr. Harold Hong: Hm. Yeah, we'll have to, Graham Doerge: it's making me very, I'm just thinking about my kids and all that right now, and it's making me, uh, terrified as a parent, worried You're messing your kids these kids up. I'm Zumrad Ahmedjanova: like, yeah, well, there is no perfect parents. There's no perfect parents. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: No. Perfect. So that means that yeah, we are not perfect parents, but there's also no perfect children. Yeah, Dr. Harold Hong: I think that's children. That's a great point though. And I think that's part of how I deescalate. The defensiveness, the walls that just [00:38:00] shoot up when I talk about the T word mm-hmm. Is I say, I, I believe your parents were doing their absolute best. Dr. Harold Hong: I don't believe your parents are monsters. They're not evil malicious people. They were doing their best. Mm-hmm. Uh, but their best might not have been what you needed. Yeah. I love that. And, and then, okay, now we can talk about things. And I say, you know, trauma is, Didn't get what you needed, or you got something you really didn't need. Dr. Harold Hong: Hmm. Right. And like, so to, to your point, like what you're talking about, um, we, we just had a client and he told me the story and made me, I I, I thought about it and I cried mm-hmm. After I went home from work. He was, he was saying he was seven years old and his parents were both heavy users of alcohol and, and they, they loved drinking and having, To the neglect of their children. Dr. Harold Hong: And he was seven years old and he was starving. He had baby brother, they were both hungry. [00:39:00] Mm-hmm. But they were terrified to ask their parents to make dinner. Holy cow. So he, his home had a, a dirt track worn around it because when he got anxious and didn't know what to do, he would go outside and just walk circles. Dr. Harold Hong: Around the house. Wow. And you know, I just think about my young children. I can't even imagine. Yeah. But it'd be like to gonna walk around the house in, in acting on anxiety. And he never thought about that as a trauma. Graham Doerge: Wow. That's some powerful, yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But when I told him, like, I told him, like, I heard that story and I cried. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And he was, he was like, oh. Maybe that, maybe there was something wrong with how Zumrad Ahmedjanova: that happened at that moment. Probably that person made some kind of a decision, some early decision when he decided about life, what life is right, and what and who he is in that life, and how to protect himself. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. He did make a choice and [00:40:00] mm-hmm. And it, it, it didn't go on to be functional for him. Yeah. He, he did what he needed to do survive. To Zumrad Ahmedjanova: survive that childhood. That's so important what you're saying that like those early decisions, they helped to survive and in that moment they're the most important thing that we could have done in that situation, given the circumstances. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: But later on those decisions like keep, keep using those decisions Yes. Are not helpful anymore. So like has kind of asking, uh, self. Do I need to keep that decision? Keep that like what I like early decision I made when I was like 7, 8, 10 years old. Yeah. Or I'm grown now enough so I can change that decision and have another decision because I can, I can change it. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I can make up a different mind about it. Right. Yeah. Even getting that autonomy back. Yeah. Yeah. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Yeah. Graham Doerge: So, um, [00:41:00] moving on to, uh, another question. So knowing what you know now, what would you like to share with your younger self, just starting out? Oh, Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I probably just like, relax, relax, breathe a little bit. Um, yeah. There was a lot of worry and anxiety. Will I make it, will I make it? Mm-hmm. Will I, will I also, um, get it across? Um, and when you ask that question, are you asking me as a person, are you asking me as a therapist? Graham Doerge: That's a good question. I'm asking you as a therapist. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Okay. As a therapist, probably I would say something like, I didn't create it. I have no control over. Uh, whatever problem, big problem, um, brought to me because this is how I used to take it. I used to take it like, I have to fix it, I [00:42:00] have to fix it. Right. I have to do something about that. Mm-hmm. I would sleep, I, I would lose sleep about thinking about, um, a patient, even though I knew it's not supposed to be that way, but Right. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: I would think a lot. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Um, but we don't get into this work because we don't care. Exactly. Right. So it's hard to differentiate that a lot of times. Right. You know, and, and you know, obviously trying to leave your work at work and mm-hmm. You know, and what we are, we do specifically, I mean, it's really 24 7, you know. Graham Doerge: Yeah. We're getting calls, you know, right. All the time in the middle of the night and, and all of that. So, um, finding that, that, uh, that balance can be tough unless you, you gotta really work at it, you know? That's true. And, uh, and that's essential because obviously burnout is a, is a very real thing in this field. Graham Doerge: So, yeah. Um, to protect ourselves, so, mm-hmm. Um, so how can, uh, how can professionals or families, or how can anybody find, uh, find you or, or you know, locate your services or anything like that? I know you have a website, correct? I do have a website. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: It's art of [00:43:00] wellness nc.com. Uh, okay. I'm in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Okay. And yeah, everything is on my website. I see families and couples, and I'm doing a lot of these days, like couples workshops. Premarital pre relationship. Mm-hmm. Early relationship, early, like early in relationship workshops. How Graham Doerge: often are you doing these workshops? Is that a monthly thing or? Zumrad Ahmedjanova: So, uh, right now I'm doing quarterly, but I'm planning to do it more often. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Okay, Graham Doerge: great. And that's, that's, uh, it sounds like relationship focus. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Relationship focus. Yes. Yeah. Like how can we start, uh, from the better basis, like an, a better foundation or. Can we actually develop a, a solid foundation now? Right. While we are like early in our relationship. Mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: I know. I think that's huge. Graham Doerge: And I know, uh, my wife and I, we, we did therapy before we got married. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we definitely did a lot of couples work before we even really embarked in a lot of those relationships. Mm-hmm. So it's really important, [00:44:00] obviously before you, you know, you're essentially signing this contract with this person for rest of to life. Graham Doerge: Right. It's a contract. Right. Really make sure that you guys are on the same page and, and. And listen that ebbs and flows and changes and, and, and throughout your relationship. But, um, you know, I think at the core of it, if you kind of still have the same values and, and love for each other, it works out, right? Graham Doerge: Yeah. So, um, you have anything, doc? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Thank, thank you for being Zumrad Ahmedjanova: here, Samara. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, talking to Graham Doerge: you. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed it, you so much. And, and, uh, we will absolutely, we'll put all your information on, on the website so people could find you and locate you at your website. Graham Doerge: Um, but uh, really appreciate you coming out and having a discussion with us today. Yeah, me too. Zumrad Ahmedjanova: Thank you for inviting. Graham Doerge: Thanks, IRA. Mm-hmm.[00:45:00] Show Notes In this thought-provoking episode of Finding New Waters, host Graham Doerge sits down with Zumrad Ahmedjanova, a clinical social worker, addiction specialist, certified supervisor, and owner of The Art of Wellness group practice. With a unique background in cultural anthropology and social work, Zumrad brings a holistic approach to her work in therapy and healing. During their conversation, Zumrad and Graham discuss the often-misunderstood nature of trauma, explaining that traumatic experiences can take many forms and that seemingly small events can have a significant impact on a person's mental health. Zumrad shares her expertise on attachment styles and their importance in understanding an individual's relationships and emotional regulation. As the conversation delves deeper into the world of therapy, Zumrad introduces somatic experiencing as a powerful tool in her practice, helping clients connect with their bodies to heal and regulate emotions. By exploring the mind-body connection and the role of somatic work in therapy, Zumrad showcases her innovative and empathetic approach to helping individuals and couples overcome personal and professional challenges. Join us in this insightful episode to learn about the intricacies of trauma, attachment styles, and somatic experiencing, and discover how Zumrad's multifaceted approach to therapy is making a difference in the lives of her clients. Zumrad Ahmedjanova Links: https://www.artofwellnessnc.com/ (https://www.artofwellnessnc.com/)https://www.linkedin.com/in/zumrad-ahmedjanova-lcsw-lcas-ccs-78ab169/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zumrad-ahmedjanova-lcsw-lcas-ccs-78ab169/)https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/zumrad-ahmedjanova-chapel-hill-nc/370840 (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/zumrad-ahmedjanova-chapel-hill-nc/370840)https://www.facebook.com/zumrad.ahmedjanova/ (https://www.facebook.com/zumrad.ahmedjanova/)https://www.instagram.com/artofwellnesscounseling/ (https://www.instagram.com/artofwellnesscounseling/) Podcast Links: ⁠www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)⁠www.newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)

Listen to Dr. Harold Hong and Graham Doerge discuss the New Waters Recovery Method of detox care. < Back to Episodes A Holistic Approach to Recovery: Uncovering the New Waters Recovery Method with Dr. Harold Hong & Graham Doerge 21:24 min | Dr. Hong & Graham | Finding New Waters Dive into the world of substance detox and recovery as Graham Durge, CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery, engages in an insightful conversation with their medical director, Dr. Harold Hong. Together, they shed light on their unique and holistic approach to addiction treatment, focusing on the integration of cutting-edge detox protocols, comprehensive wraparound care, and alternative therapies to ensure lasting transformation. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "So the holistic therapies are there to re-energize and rejuvenate you. . But more than that it's, these are things that emotionally healthy people do every day." Dr. Harold Hong Podcast Transcript Graham Doerge: [00:00:00] So, good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge and I'm the CEO and founder at New Waters Recovery, and I'm sitting here today with our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong. And we wanted to talk about a couple different things here today. And just very, very fortunate. I feel so fortunate to have Dr. Hong here on our team. You know, I've been doing this for, for a very long time now, and, you know, we've worked with a lot of medical professionals and, you know, it's very hard to find somebody who. Understands the, you know, number one, the detox process, but really the importance of being kind of on the cutting edge of, you know, what's out there and how we treat our patients. And, you know, Dr. Hong is you know, one of these gentlemen who really loves to just absorb himself in the research. And you know, by virtue of that, you know, we, we have a couple really interesting things going on here at New Water's. Recovery we're using. . So very new kind of detox protocols. Not, not new in the sense that they've just been created in the last, you know, year or two. They've actually been u utilized, [00:01:00] you know, throughout the country for some time now. But you know, for whatever reason or not, they're not really highly used in the substance use world. So I love to open it up to him and talk a little bit more about, you know in his role here, how he supports our, our. And also, you know, talk a little bit about the holistic modalities that we, that we put forth here, and really the importance of, of, of that in in helping our clients stabilize successfully. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well thanks for that intro, Graham, that . You're too kind. Really. Hmm. It's great. So I think that the, what makes new detox so special is that it's not just about having the right medications. It, it's truly holistic, like, Soup to nuts. So on, on the, there's three things that make this detox truly unique. Like best in class, one of a kind. The first is the way we do things with medications. The second piece is the wraparound care with the nursing staff and the recovery advocates. And the third piece is the [00:02:00] holistic therapies. The. It's when you put all three of these things together, that's truly a holistic detox, not just from the substances, but the behaviors, the mindsets, the people, places and things outside this facility. It's an incredible end-to-end experience, getting people a fresh, clean start, and then the aftercare referrals to the best quality residential treatments. That's really like the finishing piece for this detox. I'm happy to talk about each of those pieces a little bit more. Mm-hmm. . Graham Doerge: Yeah, and I think it's also really interesting because you know, I see you on a day-to-day basis engaging with our clients, right. And I think that you engage with our clients in a way that not a lot of other professionals do at, at, you know, at at other facilities. And, and you really have the. You put so much time forth and and you really spend, you know, a great, a great deal of time getting to know them and getting to know their history and getting to know their family history and all of those different aspects, cuz that's so, so essential in kind of understanding the whole [00:03:00] person. But you know, again, you know, that's not always done. It's, it's, you know, unfortunately in the medical, you know, world today we've, we're kind of bogged down by these, you know, 15 to 30 minute appointments that are, you know, kind of in and out, you know, and, and it's, and it's. , I think it's hindered our, our, our medical system a lot. So you know, talk a little bit about that and the importance of that. Yeah, Dr. Harold Hong: absolutely. So I, I'm coming from a, a particular story myself where I am a, I am a recovery from family of organ trauma, and I see how that, that those difficulties and the way that it set. , it led me to get into like kind of processes that would take me outta reality which is just another form of addiction. Mm-hmm. . So at the end of the day, addiction is a way of escaping reality to escape emotional pain for people that don't know how to deal with it and an emotionally appropriate or mature manner. And so I had this great dinner with Desiree Saini and some of our other like esteemed providers in the c. And [00:04:00] this one therapist said this line that just, I'll always remember, she said, wherever there's addiction, there's trauma. Mm-hmm. , right? And so we're, we're trying to do more than just detox here, right? Like, we're trying to help people get to the root. We're trying to, people find total transformation from the beginning. And so I feel like if we're not getting into the root causes, like what's the story underlying the addictive behaviors, what's the story underlying the difficulties dealing with emotional? We're, we're doing a huge disservice, right? So we have the time, we have the opportunity. We're trying to find the right setting for Africa. If you know how to have the conversation and you can get to the answer in a safe way, it's definitely no regrets. Go for it. And it, it's a really spiritual and professionally like, super rewarding experience to have those conversations with people. And when they have it in a safe way, they find relief, they find joy, they find. Mean, that's a good day. Graham Doerge: Yeah, that's a good day. And also I feel like, you know, so many of [00:05:00] these people have not been honest with their providers. Right. And they're scared to, and this is maybe the first time where they're absolutely like, okay, I can actually be honest with this person because he's kind of, you know, he is meeting, we meeting with empathy, with love, with compassion and all these things and mm-hmm. And, and unfortunately you're just not gonna get that everywhere, you know? And that's just, that's not the norm, you know, in this field right now. Dr. Harold Hong: I, I love the that saying, not right now. Right, right. Because yes, the, it, it is totally doable. It's totally possible. It is so much more joyful practice to do it that way. Yeah. Where you're seeing people authentically dream the empathy of respect and dignity and I mean that's, that's totally a foundational principle of my own personal recovery is everyone is precious and wonderful. Mm-hmm. in their own way, everyone is doing their. No one is a lost cause. No one deserves to have a painful, horrible life, right? People deserve to be treated with respect and dignity because they [00:06:00] are precious and wonderful people. And when you go into the room and you begin by seeing the precious wonder that they are, your eyes light up and you can see them peacefully. Mm-hmm. , they, the guard goes down and the answers come out. Yeah. And it's. It feels good to do the right thing the right way. Graham Doerge: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And you know, one of the other, you know, pieces that we really layered into this, this program and was, was so important to me as we were kind of building out, you know, all the programmatics was you know, obviously developing all these holistic modalities as well. So, you know, we, we here are doing, you know, yoga almost on a daily basis. It's really. What do we call it? Restorative yoga, which is, you know, it's pretty light yoga, but, you know, it's so important even at this, this phase of, of detox and at this early stage in, in the process too. Get up, get outta bed, start moving, start, you know, just getting the blood flowing a little bit. Absolutely. And it makes you feel so much better. And Absolutely. You know, that's kind of the start of the day. And then our clients go [00:07:00] into meditation and they start every day with, with a meditation group. And, you know, throughout the day they're getting services such as yoga or, or, or, excuse me, acupuncture, massage utilizing our infrared sauna, doing IV therapy. And then we, you know, we actually just started doing some breath work with some clients, you know, about a month and a half. and have gotten incredible feedback from that. So, and that's something that I do in my own personal recovery and I think is just such a powerful, powerful tool to, so, you know, and, and, and it's interesting because, you know, a lot of folks who kind of come in and talk to us are saying, you know, this is really early in the process to be doing a lot of this stuff for some people. And, and it's kind of my opinion that it's like, it's never too early. I mean, we need to, we need to get these people, you know, starting to do this stuff now so that they can start adapting these tools because these are the things that are gonna help them. The complexities of life and sobriety. Wonderful. Right? 1%. But you know, yes. There, there's a, there's a complete holistic, you know, a piece to that. But then there's also the underlying kind of medical component too. And this actually, [00:08:00] these modalities are. helping people to stabilize quicker, get to baseline quicker, and just have a more pleasant experience while they're going through detox. Right. So can you talk a little bit about that? Dr. Harold Hong: Yes, it, yeah. I'm super excited about how the detox protocols and the holistic therapies are just going like together, like peanut butter and jelly. Right, right. So the traditional detox protocol is they would call like a symptom trigger therapy. So you would wait for a person to go into moderate to severe with. you would assess them frequently, like several times an hour. And every time their score hits a certain number, you give them medications, you reassess. And if it's still going up, you give them more or more. And so people are always feeling on the bubble of being unwell and they're getting medications that tend to make you feel unwell too. So it's, it's quite normal for a detox to be spending the first two or three days in. Just dealing with the detox process itself, right? But what we're so excited and we're seeing here is with the benzo [00:09:00] sparing protocol, people are having very low symptom severity scores. They're going downstairs, having breakfast, going to yoga, and sitting in group. On day one, and this is just like really impressive. This happens consistently. It's almost like to be expected rather than the conventional protocol where that's more like the exception to the rule, right? So that's a game changer. Mm-hmm. . And we just recently had a client this last week who I think really embodies that whole experience and how, what that unlocks, what that enables. So she was feeling great on day. . I saw her early in the morning and she was feeling anxious about how this detox was gonna go. Like what things would look like for her at work. Like how does she keep her, her disease, a secret from her colleagues and just tons of anxiety. I saw her the next day in the afternoon and I was expecting a little bit of, you know, how do I kind of de-stress or reframe the, the challenges that she's [00:10:00] seeing? And it, I was shocked because it's so worth her. . I've had the most wonderful day ever, , and I was like, oh, tell me more about what's been going on. And she said, it's been years since I've done yoga. It's been years since I've done meditation. I've, I've always had this thought in the back of my mind that I should be doing these things cuz I know it'll help me. But actually felt more guilty that I didn't do those things. And it's just so, it feels so good to do this again. Yep. And I was, I was just so happy for. But then I reflected back to her that, you know, we're doing this for two reasons. You know, one is we feel like holistic therapies are getting people re-energized. Like just your body's beat up, your body's stressed, you're dehydrated, you're under undernourished. Lots of problems. So the holistic therapies are there to re-energize and rejuvenate you. . But more than that, it's, these are things that emotionally healthy people do every day. Mm-hmm. , right? Like the, the [00:11:00] life that, and the daily rhythms that we're creating for the clients here. This is just what healthy people do ordinarily, right? Yep. Right. And I think it's, it, it, it brings me back to this moment where I was leaving a really powerful residential therapy experience for myself personally. And, you know, we had all had this very powerful. , we're all thinking for ourselves. Now we're going back to the real world. Okay. And that's scary. The group facilitator, just, this is another phrase I'll always remember, he said, what you are going back to is the ordinary world where people do things in the ordinary way, and we know how that works for most people down well, right. The real world is actually where you are. Right. , the real world is here where we're talking about what's really going on and dealing with it in a realistic way. Mm-hmm. , and that, that just perfectly captures what this woman was talking about. Mm-hmm. in her ordinary [00:12:00] world, she lived this ordinary way of doing things where we're used to neglecting ourselves. We're used to just pushing ourselves super hard at work, pushing ourselves super hard with friends and family, but not keeping stock of where are my needs, where are my wants at? How do we get that met in an appropriate. This is a place where we give people back on the treadmill of understanding how to do that in a realistic way, and it's so extraordinary for people to experience that, but that's what we hope they take back and make their reality. Yeah. So they're getting detoxed from alcohol, from opiates, but also from these ordinary dysfunctional waste, right. That we normally get. . Graham Doerge: Yeah. I mean, that's beautiful. And I, and I always think back to, you know, listen, we need to, first and foremost, you know, we need to arrest the addiction, right? And we need to kind of, you know, get, you know, we need to separate that piece, and that's what we're kind of doing here and dealing with the kind, the crisis and all of that piece. But it really, it's such a beautiful thing to see see the clients really grabbing hold of these, of these, you know, various services that we [00:13:00] have. And, and then just having such an impact. And, and as you said, you know, we, I think it was our, our second or third client, the gentleman came in and. I don't even feel like I'm detoxing. And, you know, and that was when you kind of explained to me this detox, the benzo sparing protocol in, in a little more detail. And I'd love, you know, for our audience to, to hear a little bit more about that as well. Yeah. Because I think it really is, it's cutting edge stuff and I hope more facilities do start utilizing it because it really has been so successful for us. And, you know, listen, this, this doesn't have to be a traumatic experience, right? It doesn't have to be a super uncomfortable experience. We can, we can do this in a really comfortable manner and do it with respect and dignity and, and do it so that you're set up for success when you leave here, right? So, mm-hmm. . So talk to us a little bit about the benzo sperum protocol. Dr. Harold Hong: Sure, sure. Yeah. So the Benzo Spring Protocol is a departure from how we initiate moderating your nourisher as bears. Okay. In the traditional method, we use something like Ativan. You could also use Valium or Librium. These [00:14:00] are all like siblings to each other in the same family, and what they do is they hit the same receptor that alcohol hits essentially. And when we drink alcohol, it brings our adrenaline levels down and brings our glutamate levels down. And those are excitatory transmitters. So when you, when people drink, they feel suppressed. When you take away alcohol, you get a surge of a adrenaline. You get a surge of glutamate. And that's why when people are te detoxing, they get shakes, they get tremors. They get sweats, their heart races, their blood pressure shoots up and it can get so excited that you actually have a seizure. Yeah. Right. So in the traditional method, we use Ativan, Valium, Librium, something in that family because it's like alcohol for your brain. Mm-hmm. and like super interesting side. The first detox happened in ancient Greece, and it was people going away to a residential facility getting a [00:15:00] jug of wine. And every day they got a new jug, but the jug would have more water in it as each day went by. Hmm. And so they were literally being tapered off of alcohol in ancient times. And that is basically similar to how we still do it, right? Yeah. Right. Graham Doerge: And you'd think we would've found a better way at this point. Well, here Dr. Harold Hong: we are. Here we are. Here we are, right? Yeah. So these, they're neuroscientists who are focusing on seizure states, delirium states. They're looking at how alcohol causes these things, and they're saying it's because there's a surge. There's a storm of adrenaline, there's a storm of glittering. And interestingly, the one way that your brain protects yourself from alcohol is it stops making the gap or receptor. So that makes detox very difficult for some people because you're giving ati. , but there's nowhere for it to land. Hmm. There's nowhere for it to cause the downstream effect of bringing the adrenaline down, bringing the glutamate down. And those people will commonly have what we call a complex withdrawal, and they may need to be [00:16:00] managed in an intensive care unit. Yep. But again, these neuroscientists, they find, okay, the problem isn't, how do we simulate GABA enough? Hmm. The problem is how do we calm the surge of adrenaline and the surge of glutamate? And for people who don't have that GABA receptor, like what can we do? And they said, we actually know that there's a bunch of medications that bring those neurotransmitters down. Claine, guine, gabapentin, topiramate. We know for sure that these medicines bring those neurotransmitters down. What would happen if we used those medications instead? And so Dr. Mal at Sanford Healthcare and then the Kaiser Permanente system in Northern California picked. And this last year they released this study that involved tens of thousands of patients using the banzo spraying protocol. And it showed that it was faster so people were ready to discharge much faster than people ons a or other protocols. And it was safer and viewer transmission transfers to icu. Mm-hmm. . So [00:17:00] it's essentially better, faster. and the clinicians for using this, they'll say, you'll know who's on the Benzel Spa protocol because there are the people who are sitting comfortably in unsure of reading the New York Times. Right. And you know the people that are on the other protocol because they're in bed feeling uncomfortable and they might be a little bit confused. Right? Graham Doerge: Yep. So that's the critical reason here. And it's, and it's tough too because you, you have clients that come to us who. You know, treatment savvy, we'll say, and are maybe med seeking, and they want Ativan and they want these medications. Right. And, you know, we're, we, it's our job to kind of educate them on that this is a, a better, faster, safer, you know, protocol. And, and, and try to kind of help 'em navigate that. But it is interesting how you see, you know, despite that information and that knowledge, people still kind of, you know, they wanna hold onto that, that that crutch still. Yeah. Absolut. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: As a clinician, having massaged acupuncture, breath work, [00:18:00] yoga, meditation, high quality group therapy, high quality individual assessments, like having that backstop of all of those supportive services, it makes my job so much easier. Graham Doerge: Totally. A hundred percent. And, and also, you know, I think as well you know, it just keeps the clients busy, right? And that's a huge, huge piece. You know, if you haveli, if you have 20 clients in your facility and you know, they're all just kind of hanging out and they're in bed and there's not a lot going on, and maybe there's a group here, but they're not really, you know, forced to engage in, in any services or anything like that. And we don't force anybody to, to engage in services, but we highly recommend it. Right. Yeah. We, and our team does a very good job at getting people, you know, involved and, and it's really for their benefit. Because listen, our head is a scary place, you know, and if we're just sitting in bed and and just kind of ruminating about this, Our, the substances that we're, that we're using to self-medicate have been taken away from us. And now all these feelings and these emotions and these urges and all this stuff has kind of come flooding in. [00:19:00] Yeah. And it's like we gotta keep ourself engaged and busy and out of our head and, and these, you know, these modalities that we, that we offer here, do a great job of that. And I think by virtue of that, we have a lot. people leaving against medical advice. Mm-hmm. . And it just, you know, from an operational perspective, it, it, it really helps from a lot of different Dr. Harold Hong: angles on my own. Hundred percent. Yep. If you're, if you're going six year, six months, six years of drinking, like living in intoxicated state, there's a lot of problems that have accumulated over that time. Yes. And going 4, 5, 7 continuous days without being, I. , it's a terrifying time of taking stock of all the things that have happened. Yep. But at the end of the day, it's, it is perfectly realistic and okay to take one step at a time, like one small bite at a time, and, and you'll get through all those problems. You'll process it. But if you get into your head, you get into your old ways of thinking and forecasting catastrophe, and you're, there's, there's nothing good for you [00:20:00] in your. Yep. Yeah. It's hard to take a positive step forward. Yeah. Right. But having all these positive activities, having positive people and realistic people talking through that moment. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Hold. Yep. It is, it really is. Well, it's been a pleasure spending some time with you today and, and is getting a little bit more information on, on some of those procedures and processes and we look forward to hearing more from Dr. Hong in the future. All right, thanks Show Notes A Holistic Approach to Recovery: Uncovering the New Waters Recovery Method with Dr. Harold Hong Description: Dive into the world of substance detox and recovery as Graham Doerge, CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery, engages in an insightful conversation with their medical director, Dr. Harold Hong. Together, they shed light on their unique and holistic approach to addiction treatment, focusing on the integration of cutting-edge detox protocols, comprehensive wraparound care, and alternative therapies to ensure lasting transformation. Dr. Hong shares his personal journey, emphasizing the significance of addressing underlying trauma in the addiction recovery process. He explains how New Waters Recovery's detox program stands out from the rest, not only due to its carefully tailored medications, but also through the all-encompassing support provided by their nursing staff and recovery advocates. The incorporation of holistic therapies further elevates their approach, leading to a truly transformative detox experience for clients. Listen as they discuss the importance of establishing meaningful connections with clients, taking the time to delve into their history, family background, and personal experiences to understand the individual on a deeper level. In a world where many medical professionals are burdened by short appointments, the compassionate and empathetic care at New Waters Recovery sets a new standard for treatment. Hear Dr. Hong's reflections on the profound impact of honest, safe, and open communication between clients and providers, and how this level of trust and understanding can lead to breakthroughs in the healing process. Together, they envision a future where this level of patient-centered care becomes the norm, fostering a more rewarding and effective approach to addiction recovery. Don't miss this thought-provoking discussion on the power of a holistic approach to recovery, and how the innovative methods at New Waters Recovery are making a lasting difference in the lives of their clients. #HolisticRecovery #AddictionTreatment #SubstanceDetox #NewWatersRecovery #DrHaroldHong #GrahamDoerge #DetoxProtocols #WraparoundCare #AlternativeTherapies #PatientCenteredCare #UnderlyingTrauma #AddictionRecoveryProcess #CompassionateTreatment #RecoveryAdvocates #EmotionalHealing #SubstanceAbuse #TransformativeDetox #AddictionAndTrauma #HealingJourney #RecoverySupport

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Breathing Life into Recovery: An Interview with Kelsey Rudzinsky 42:28 min | Kelsey Rudzinsky | Finding New Waters In this riveting episode of Finding New Waters, breathwork specialist Kelsey Rudzinsky delves deep into the transformative power of conscious breathing. She opens up about her personal journey and shares how breathwork helps her clients release past trauma, connect with their emotions, and redefine their life paths. Kelsey's enlightening conversation with Justin Mclendon and B. Reeves offers a fresh perspective on addiction recovery and mental wellness. Discover the healing potential within your own breath in this episode. Don't miss it! Subscribe "Breathwork was a tool that just allowed me to feel my body again, and feel my emotions again." -Kelsey Rudzinsky Podcast Transcript #18 Kelsey Rudzinsky Kelsey Rudzinsky: [00:00:00] Throughout life, things happen to us. To all of us, right? We experience things and. The energy of those experiences, whether they happen to us personally or even if they've happened to our ancestors, right? These energies are in our bodies until we're able to move them. Hmm. And so breath work is. Using the breath in, and I call it work because it's hard, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: You have to focus on your breath while you're doing the active breathing, and the mind doesn't want to let go of control because that's what we perceive as safety. So the mind's like, no, no, no, no. Like we're not doing this. Let me think about this. Or Let me call this person. Or, this is so dumb, I'm not doing this person here. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And then all of a sudden, Something switches.[00:01:00] Kelsey Rudzinsky: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Kelsey Rudzinsky: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is off in the darkest hour for many Justin Mclendon: families. Hey, doing guys. Thank you for joining us today on another episode of, uh, finding New Waters podcast. Uh, my name's Justin McClennan. Justin Mclendon: I'm the executive director, also licensed therapist here at New Waters Recovery. And, uh, we are joined today. We have B Reeves, our director of uh, admissions and outreach with us and our [00:02:00] special guest on the show today is Kelsey Rudzinski, uh, certified breathwork facilitator. Uh, Kelsey also facilitates breath work here at New Waters twice a week for our clients. Justin Mclendon: And, uh, I, I must say it's probably out of all of the things that we do, it's probably literally their best, their, their favorite thing that they get to do as they're, as they're here with us. So That's awesome. Mm-hmm. So, Kelsey, instead of trying to, uh, introduce you for you, I thought maybe we could open up and let you, uh, just talk a little bit about who you are and all that good stuff. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Sure, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Um, So I am a registered nurse, a certified breathwork facilitator, and a reiki master practitioner. So I feel like I have a good balance of science and western medicine with, um, spirituality and a little bit more of the holistic space. And so I. Create, um, [00:03:00] classes, workshops, and guided experiences for people to experience the power of their breath. Kelsey Rudzinsky: That's Justin Mclendon: awesome. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. So, so we talked about maybe starting with like a cleansing Kelsey Rudzinsky: breath. Yeah. So the way that I like to start every group, every day, um, as often as possible, you know, one of, um, My favorite authors, Eckert Toll, um, who wrote The Power Of Now? Yes. In his book, which is a wonderful book, um, in his book, A New Earth, he says that by taking a cleansing breath, you, we are creating space in the the incessant stream of thinking, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: We're always thinking. So even one breath creates space and a gap. So, If we could start with three cleansing breaths. So for the listeners, if you are somewhere where you can close your eyes, take a minute and just relax your body, straighten your spine, relax your [00:04:00] shoulders. I notice that right now my heart is racing pretty fast. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Um, I'm on this beautiful set and excited about this conversation, and so just noticing how you're feeling inside your body, and we're gonna inhale in through the nose and then exhaling out the mouth with a sigh. And so inhaling in and feeling yourself filled with oxygen. And then as you exhale, just feeling the tension release from your body. Kelsey Rudzinsky: So inhaling in. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Ah, Kelsey Rudzinsky: inhale in. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And one more time, inhaling in and if it feels good in your body, exhaling with an audible sigh.[00:05:00] Kelsey Rudzinsky: And just noticing here in this moment, after three breaths, if you feel more present, really noticing how you're feeling in this moment, coming fully into the present. And when you're ready, blinking your eyes open. And just noticing if there's a subtle shift. I do. Justin Mclendon: Definitely. I definitely do. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. My, my heart rate is much more, yeah. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Calm. Yeah. B. Reeves: I love that you, uh, mentioned that this is, uh, from, from a new Earth. I, I love Eckhart totally as well. I. And, um, I didn't know anything about him and somebody gave me a new Earth first. So I actually read that before, uh, the power of now, which I don't think is recommended, but I have that, that book changed my life. B. Reeves: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and one thing about the breath work, Justin already touched on it being the For sure our most popular thing we do here. And, um, everybody [00:06:00] for the most part is terrified to do it. It's true. And don't, they don't want to do it. I had a. A personal friend who came into New Waters not that long ago. B. Reeves: And the day that she arrived, it was a Monday and you were doing breath work that night. And she was like, nah, I think I'm just gonna go to my room. And I said, just, just trust me. Just, just try it. Don't knock until you try it. And she was blown away. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, was, went back Thursday. Wow. And so we, it's, people love it. B. Reeves: Yeah. They absolutely Kelsey Rudzinsky: do. Yeah. It's a really powerful practice of getting people out of their mind and into the body in a way that we don't often experience and. I love that most people come in and especially it seems like, you know, there's some buzz here about it because a lot of the staff has tried it. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. So people come in like, I've heard this is gonna be powerful. And you know, I always say, I don't know, it might be right. And I really just try to create an environment where it's like, [00:07:00] Let's just be here. Mm-hmm. And see what happens. And if you wanna listen to my cues of what I'm suggesting, great. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And if you just wanna lay there, that's great too. Yeah. And after, so in the Monday group, I do a specific breathing technique, which is what I'm certified to facilitate. And I was trained by David Elliot and. This technique after the first few minutes when the mind does let go. Right? Because we just, we live in our minds. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. When people drop into the body and start feeling the sensation in their body and feeling their power, that's where Yeah. The magic starts to happen and I just, you know, am there to support and hold that space, but it's, It's really, really beautiful to witness. Yeah, it's very cool. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, I, I did it myself. Justin Mclendon: Uh, you [00:08:00] know, the first time you came in and did the, uh, before we decided to even move forward with having you come in, we did that kind of complimentary, uh, you know, for the staff. And that was the first, you know, I've done a lot of meditation in the past, but this was the first time that I'd ever engaged in like breath work like this. Justin Mclendon: And, uh, I won't share my experience necessarily. Mm-hmm. But, It was very powerful. Very powerful. I mean, just that one time that I did it, it was really, really cool. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned meditation. Mm-hmm. And for your listeners, we, we talked a little before mm-hmm. And like what is breath work? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Sure. Right. So maybe we back up and even talk about that. Yeah, let's do that. Um, I define breath work as the intentional manipulation of the breath. Um, and, and some people call it pranayama, right? Okay. These are not new modalities. These are ancient eastern techniques that are making their way into our modern society again, because we need it. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. Um, and so, Pranayama. So prana is [00:09:00] life force. Um, that's the translation. And then Yama, or iama means to control. So if we think of oxygen as life force, which it is, we are controlling the life force. And you know, there's a lot more awareness now around energy. Mm-hmm. And the energy within us and that. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Uh, throughout life, things happen to us. To all of us, right? We experience things and the energy of those experiences, whether they happen to us personally or even if they've happened to our ancestors, right? These energies are in our bodies until we're able to move them. Hmm. And so breath work is using the breath in. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And I call it work because it's hard, right? You have to focus on your breath while you're doing the active breathing. Mm-hmm. And the mind [00:10:00] doesn't want to let go of control because that's what we perceive as safety. So the mind's like, no, no, no, no. Like we're not doing this. Let me think about this. Or let me call this person. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Or, this is so dumb, I'm not doing this right like this. Like who is this person here? And then all of a sudden, Something switches. Justin Mclendon: So what? Switches And I, I wonder that myself. Like, what is that? Hmm. Kelsey Rudzinsky: That's it. Um, well, speaking in a, in a more scientific way. Sure. Yeah. Right. So we're moving oxygen and when you get enough oxygen, so. Kelsey Rudzinsky: I love that New Waters teaches about chakras because whenever clients come in and I first, you know, I have my oils that, um, I let people use and I say, you know, these have been specifically blended for the chakras. Does anybody know what the chakras are? And everyone's like, yeah, we just learned about that in a group, which is incredible. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the body has these chakras, which [00:11:00] are. Energy centers in the body. So they're essentially picture them as like small little hard drives in our body that have different functions. And some might see chakras as like esoteric, right. But they actually correlate with the ductless glands that are in our body. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Right. Interesting. So we have like the pituitary gland. The thyroid gland, the adrenal glands, right? So like we have these ductless glands that all have really specific functions that heavily impact the body mm-hmm. That are associated with chakras. And so as we're breathing and we get more oxygen moving in the body, Eventually the, uh, oxygen stimulates the hypothalamus gland, and that is where endorphins are released. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Right? And endorphins are the hormone, the feel-good hormones mm-hmm. That we experience when we eat something delicious or have sex or [00:12:00] maybe drink alcohol, right? So these hormones that help us feel more in the body, and so as those endorphins make their way down through the body, People start to experience a higher vibration, more sensation until and when it comes upon some sort of block. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Right. And this isn't a conscious process, so it's not like you're thinking about it. And that's where, you know, many people share after breathing. Like all of a sudden I just started crying. Mm-hmm. I don't know why I don't like, I just, and I haven't cried in years. Right. And so, What's really beautiful is it's not a conscious process. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Um, we're really getting in the body and yeah. That's very cool. Yeah, that's very Justin Mclendon: cool. It's super cool. So the blocks that come up is that, um, Like you said, it's not a conscious [00:13:00] process, but that could be, it sounds like that could be a thought or an emotion or something that's just kind of Kelsey Rudzinsky: there. Yeah. It could be a thought pattern. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. It could be a trauma that we experienced. Mm-hmm. Right. At some point in our lives, it could be from a physical injury that we've had and we have scar tissue in our body. Mm-hmm. Um, Have either of you ever read The Body Keeps the Score. I have, yeah. Yeah. So it's a great book. So working with that concept that like our body does hold onto what we experience, what we perceive around us, and a lot of what. Kelsey Rudzinsky: My teacher bases his work around. And what really resonates with me is this idea of, um, we are primarily blocked in our sacral chakra, which is the second chakra. And, and this is as a collective, right? But also individually. And that's what deals with, um, power, sex, [00:14:00] money, safety, um, that's here. Right, and so using the breath work to really unblock the second chakra, to open the fourth chakra, which is the heart. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So what, uh, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of got you into, what piqued your interest, what kind of like initiated the this path for you? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah, sure. My own healing. Okay. Yeah. My own curiosities and. Um, specifically with, um, like my womb space and my feminine energy. Kelsey Rudzinsky: I grew up in the states, which is, you know, we live in a very masculine society. That's like, go to school, go to college, get a job, work out, do all right, do all the things. And when we do that, I was just in this like, go, go, go state. And then I had realized, you know, like I wasn't getting a [00:15:00] period, I wasn't connected to my body. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And so on my own quest, um, I had been on birth control, like 98% of American women are at some point. Mm-hmm. I had been on it for 15 years. And what we're learning now about birth control is that it completely alters the way the entire body is functioning. Mm. Um, and so I realized that I didn't even know how my body worked or what it was, and so I was at the time living on St. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Thomas in the Virgin Islands. Okay. As one does, and, um, was connected with. A womb healer, which I didn't know what that was either at the time. Um, and she introduced me to this breathing practice, and the first time I did it felt like, And, and I had been doing work before that of like meditation and journaling and a lot of [00:16:00] self-inquiry. Kelsey Rudzinsky: So I had sort of been on the path of like, what is going on Sure. In life, right? Yeah. Like what is this? Um, what am I doing here? Who am I? And so doing a lot of that work I think, prepared me for this so that when I first tried the breath work, It felt like a coming home to my body that I had never experienced. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm. And as I continued doing, it was really able to, one, get my period back. Okay. Which was like, what? Like some, right, because it was this tangible result of like, can I swear on here? Yeah. Okay. Like, holy, I, no, yeah, just go for it. Holy shit. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Like, holy shit, right? Like, Whoa, this, you know, and then starting as I continued to breathe, having these experiences of things, of memories coming up. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. That I didn't think of these things, right. [00:17:00] Like a car accident that I got in when I was eight years old, that. I don't think about, oh wow. And all of a sudden in breath work, I'm back as that little girl in that space and now in the safe space being held by somebody who's encouraging me to feel what you're feeling and, and what is that sensation to. Kelsey Rudzinsky: To feel what I wasn't able to feel at the time. Wow. And that is so much of what we experience, right? That at the time when something happens, whether we're young or whether we're just at a space in life where like we gotta just keep going. We're not able to feel these things and. In order to clear and move this energy, we have to feel it. Kelsey Rudzinsky: That's amazing. Yeah. And so I continued practicing and working with this teacher and just felt like more people need to experience this. [00:18:00] So I, um, went to the healer training and deepened my own practice and yeah, just feel really grateful and honored to be able to share it and. It's like every time I get to witness somebody experience this in themselves, it it's incredible. Kelsey Rudzinsky: That's cool. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So it sounds like you get, you get a lot of, there's a lot of meaning. There's a lot Kelsey Rudzinsky: of, uh, totally. Yeah. And, and I find that the deeper that I am able to go within myself and the more disciplined I am with, with my work. By far because it's energy, right? Sure. We're working with energy. Kelsey Rudzinsky: The more that people feel safe to do the same within themselves. Do you ever B. Reeves: see people who kinda go within themselves and then they uncover something like you said this when you're eight something you don't remember, but something's super horrible. Then they, it comes out and [00:19:00] then they're don't know what to do with that. B. Reeves: Especially in, you know, in early when they're in detox. Has that happened? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, and that's where. Having that support, having someone hold the space to be there, to witness that and to offer the space after to process, to share, and then also highly encouraging using support systems. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. Right. Like I think therapy and breath work together is like, Like, it's so good, right? Because we're able to, to talk about these things and get them out and then move that energy through the body or the other way around. B. Reeves: That's cool. Why do you think, uh, it's a meditation. Easter meditation seems to be more of a thing acceptable, but I didn't know anything about breath work really until I found myself in recovery, but still didn't know anything really about it until you came in. B. Reeves: So why do you think that [00:20:00] it's, it's so powerful. Everybody loves it. Why is it, why does it take so long? Just because it's Eastern. Kelsey Rudzinsky: I think a lot of the best things have been hidden. Covered up. Lost. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And, and they are making their way back by the people who are feeling called to share and lead, and. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah, and be brave enough to put it out there because it is new and it is. I also think that your question about people uncovering something really big and not knowing what to do with it is so important, and that's where. Truly creating a space that feels supported and knowing that I would never leave somebody who, who needs help. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Right. And, and my background as a registered nurse, I worked in mental health for six years. Mm-hmm. So [00:21:00] I feel like I can only speak for myself. Sure. But because I've. Learned and seen how to hold some of those deeper, more tender spaces. I feel safe doing it, but I do think it's really important that people that are holding these spaces for people to go deep, need to need to know what they're doing. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Right. I also feel like something that is also really cool about the breath that I've experienced. And why I feel comfortable coming into a space like this where it's like you have people from all different walks of life mm-hmm. With all backgrounds and all awareness, all different types of awareness, of healing modalities coming in. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And I'm saying like, all right, you have no idea what, what room you just walked into and let's go in there. The reason that I feel comfortable to do that is because the breath. I [00:22:00] find really meets people where they're at. So it won't take you further than you're ready to go. Like when I uncovered that memory, I was ready. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. And that's where, and, and another, um, another concept that my teacher David Elliot talks about is this pyramid of, um, The layers of being human. Right? And the first is the physical. And that's the foundational and that's, um, caring for our physical body and physical energy. And that's where most people spend most of our lives, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Like, um, and that includes, A physical disability disease, chronic disease, an obsession with the body. Mm-hmm. Over exercising, eating disorders, poisoning the body with substances and sugar and cigarettes and things like that. Right. And then above that, the next layer is the emotional layer, [00:23:00] and then above that is the mental layer and above that is spiritual, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. And they all build upon each other. And so I. Find that a lot of people, especially here, right, that have probably spent decades, In the physical layer. Right. Whether that is, I mean, most of us do. Mm-hmm. With the obsession of our bodies and how we look or consuming substances and numbing out. And so then when they come into breath work, all of a sudden this emotional layer sort of opens. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. And these people are able to. Let go a little bit and tap into that deeper layer, which is part of why, you know the Monday group is called Releasing Through Breath, because I really encourage people, if you start to feel something, let it flow, let it B. Reeves: go. What's the difference between what you do on Mondays and Thursdays? Kelsey Rudzinsky: So Mondays is a guided [00:24:00] experience through. With the breathing technique, um, that I've been talking about. Thursdays is a functional breathing group. So something that I've found as I've been sharing breath work is, and I'm like, let's, let's do the deep work. Like let's get in there. But most people. Don't even know how to breathe. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. So Thursday is a functional breathing group where we go over four different breathing techniques, when to use them, how to use them, and then offering time for people to really practice them and notice within their body the subtle changes of, of how they feel. Justin Mclendon: That's awesome. So cool. Yeah, it's B. Reeves: very cool. B. Reeves: Yeah, I, I mean, I've, without ever, unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to take your class, but I'm, or come to one of your sessions, but I will. Yeah. But I've picked up a little bit of here and there over just for breath breathing techniques of even, you know, [00:25:00] YouTube them. I mean, in my, when I was in my first few years of, of sobriety, I mean, I was a basket case and I would be, you know, get some news that I couldn't handle, whether it was relationship or work related. B. Reeves: And I would just breathe for a little while. And it's amazing how much, you know, I'm sure I was doing it wrong and it still helped me tremendously. You can't do it wrong, but, you know, I just, well, that's, thank you. Yeah, I need to hear that. Yeah, because, you know, I still, you know, I still like to feel good, but I just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen. B. Reeves: So I, uh, I look forward to. Investigating further into breath work. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. If something comes up When you were talking about that B, because I think, so as a, as a therapist, I've worked with many people in the past, and I think there's this kind of like, uh, I'm not the only person that's experienced this, right? Justin Mclendon: But, so there's the, this kind of, uh, reoccurring situation, right? Where you're, you're meeting with a client, maybe it's like session number one or two or something like that. And the topic of like fear, anxiety, like that type of content starts to come up and. [00:26:00] At least for myself, a lot of times I will introduce like, you know, a breathing technique, right? Justin Mclendon: Like, hey, you know, let's, let's try this. Let's practice it here and maybe you can start to try and utilize this when it makes sense when you think of it and see if it makes a difference. And it's really funny to me how many times people are like, oh my God, here's another therapist telling me to like breathe again. Justin Mclendon: And they just push it off. But it's so funny that like, Something just as small as being able to like stop and focus on your breath and control your breath for a minute, it really can be very impactful. Mm-hmm. Uh, but it's still, I don't know, I just find it almost laughable that, uh, it's almost every time that I bring it up, somebody's like, oh my God, here we go again. Justin Mclendon: And that's totally, you know, don't knock it till you try. B. Reeves: Well, I mean, and literally everything, if I, before I got sober, Everything that I do now, if I knew it existed, I thought it was ridiculous. Like prayer and meditation, right? Yep. Breath work. Yeah. I didn't really know much about it then, but I would've scoffed that too. B. Reeves: Sure. Um, but every single tool that anybody's ever presented to me has worked. Yeah. Kelsey Rudzinsky: [00:27:00] Yeah. And that's where it's like, I, people need to be ready. Yeah. And you meet, you really meet people where they're at. Right. Um, and I like to think of it as, um, You know, people know about the nervous system. Mm-hmm. That's something that does get taught in school, right. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And that we have these two sides of the nervous system and then we have the vagus nerve. Right. And I think of the vagus nerve as like a highway that goes down our body. And when you think about breath work as a tool, to me breath work is the gear shift. Between the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Interesting. Okay. Right. And like you're saying, or, or using the breath in general. Mm-hmm. Is a way to quickly switch from a sympathetic fight or flight feeling of anxiety to a much more calm, rest and digest state. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Yeah. And it's right there at [00:28:00] our fingertips. I mean, we can literally do it at any time, right? Justin Mclendon: Yeah, Kelsey Rudzinsky: yeah. But we live in such a fast-paced world, right? Absolutely. And we live in a world that is constantly pulling us. Externally pulling us outside of ourselves to do this and go there and make your food, and order your coffee supplement and write like all of these different things that we have to do. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Take the kids to practice. Yeah. Go on vacation, go to your meeting. Like these are all things that we're just constantly being pulled outside of ourself. Mm-hmm. And the breath is an invitation. To come back in. And I think when people get to a point, whether that's just through their own curiosity, or most times it is when you know something tragic happens or they get some sort of diagnosis or go into detox, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: That they start wondering who am I? Mm-hmm. And this is a way to really, I mean, my work is all based on [00:29:00] helping people. Come back to who they truly are. B. Reeves: What percentage of people you work with or you see using breath work are in recovery for of some, some sort? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Everyone. Everyone. Okay. I mean, I think we're all in recovery, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Whether that's, I would agree from like program childhood programming, um, abuse in the home, drugs and alcohol. Right? I think. We are living in a time and, and come from a history where we all have experienced trauma, whether we are the perpetrators, ancestrally, or we've been on the receiving end of it. We are in a time where we can't deny that anymore, and the more that we are able to unravel that and admit it, that's where the unity. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Comes back, right? Yeah. We, [00:30:00] because the more that we try to deny it, we're just continuing the division. Mm-hmm. And that's where people are finding themselves feeling more disconnected, more lonely than ever, and more confused and overwhelmed than ever. Yeah. So I think everyone. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: I mean, I would agree with that. Justin Mclendon: Good answer. Yeah, great answer because I agree with that. True. I think we're all kind of, you know, whether it's conscious or not. Right. I think we're all in recovery for something. Right. Or even if, again, if we're completely unaware of that, like there's still a longing or level of dissatisfaction Kelsey Rudzinsky: something. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. Or noticing the patterns, the mental loops that we find ourself in, whether it's recovering from self-doubt. Mm-hmm. Self-consciousness. Right. Eating disorders. Yeah. I think our, my relationship with food is something that I continue to notice and work on, and so it's just all of these different coping mechanisms that maybe we picked up at some point [00:31:00] in our lives because we needed them. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. And they helped us get where we are and now we're able to, to look at and unravel if those are serving us anymore. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. So, um, So you do breath work here. Mm-hmm. And people love it. Mm-hmm. Uh, you, I know you also have kind of your own private practice and things like that. Maybe spend a few minutes if you could, talking about, um, what other type of services, you know, what kind of, uh, you know, for anybody that's listening, you know, how could they, and we'll put some information in the, in the, in the, uh, podcast notes and things like that on how to contact you and stuff. Justin Mclendon: But, but if somebody wanted to do some breath breath work, like what do you do and all that Kelsey Rudzinsky: stuff. Sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so I have a website that. Um, I post different events that I'm doing in the area. I don't have a dedicated space, so usually I will, um, rent a space or collaborate with somebody who has a space. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Um, I primarily do group work. I [00:32:00] really love group work. I feel like. Its just like how, you know, one person has a consciousness, a group has a consciousness, and, and feeling that amplified energy of people breathing and opening together. I. Is so magical. So most of what I do is group work. Okay. Um, I do a virtual breathing group every Tuesday evening on Zoom from eight to 9:00 PM Oh cool. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Eastern Standard time. Okay. Yeah. Um, and that's just a really beautiful space to. Come in, you know, during your week, it's called Return to your Breath. And it is a space to show up and share what's alive for you, share an intention for what you're breathing into, and then together breathe from the comfort of your own home. Kelsey Rudzinsky: That's very cool. Yeah, so I do that. Um, right now I'm doing breathing groups for a [00:33:00] summer camp for kids, um, which is amazing. And. I feel really, really grateful to have been asked to do that. Um, and then I do day retreats, so eventually I would like to do some longer retreats. Okay. Um, destination, eventually I'm gonna do a retreat in St. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Thomas. Oh, cool. Um, yeah. Where, you know, a combination of different modalities because, Of course I'm biased about breath work and it is incredibly powerful, but like anything else, it's a tool. Mm-hmm. Right? It's one tool and we need so many different tools and exercise and yoga and eating healthy and healthy relationships. Kelsey Rudzinsky: So I love collaborating with different people to create these immersive experiences for people to just again, come back to their most authentic self. That's cool. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, that's very cool. You'll also do some kind of [00:34:00] individual one-on-one stuff too, is that correct? I Kelsey Rudzinsky: do. Yeah. So I. I, I will work with individuals, um, especially if there's something specific that people are wanting to go into. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. I work with couples. It's really powerful to breathe with a partner. Um, and just the energetics of the relationship are really present because again, and if some people are like, oh, no, no, no. Remembering that it's not a conscious process. Right. So this isn't like, Couples therapy where we're talking about, and we're going back and forth. Kelsey Rudzinsky: This is like, let's not talk, let's go in and see what comes up on both ends. It's really powerful. That's cool. Yeah, and I do the same with families. Um, it's, it's really, really beautiful to see a family. Um, Breathing together in this space and allowing whatever comes up to be present. Because we know that family dynamics are really complicated. Kelsey Rudzinsky: They are Justin Mclendon: definitely, I mean, we see [00:35:00] that Kelsey Rudzinsky: every day. Sure. Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: we definitely do. Well, that's great. Um, I had another question and it slipped my mind, unfortunately. That's okay. Um, v anything? B. Reeves: No, just I'm, it's a breath of fresh air actually to there, to, to somebody on the podcast that's, you know, not just, you know, standard talking about, you know, drugs and alcohol. B. Reeves: So, and we, and I just wanna reiterate that our clients absolutely love, love it. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: I really do. So keep coming Kelsey Rudzinsky: back. Thank you. Yeah. It feels it's really important work and. It's not about me, right? It's about the people that are ready to experience it, having the opportunity to do that. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So, you know, and I'll comment on that just from, I mean, again, so I've done it. Justin Mclendon: I've had the opportunity to do it. I would actually love to do more of it because I had a very powerful experience when I did it. Um, [00:36:00] What I think with the clients, um, you know, we do so much stuff, right? Talk therapy. We also had to do a lot of other holistic things. So they are getting massages. They get to, uh, engage in like yoga and there's other like, holistic things that are not kind of like verbally based, if you will. Justin Mclendon: But there is a lot of, there's a lot of group therapy, there's a lot of individual conversations that take place. They're communicating with peers, with the doctors, with the nurses. There's a lot of this kind of. Talking through things and staying in this kind of like, Conscious plane of trying to understand like what are they thinking, what are they feeling, uh, you know, taking ownership of past behaviors, making plans for the future. Justin Mclendon: And it's just really cool. Like you have, have mentioned, um, when they go into this space where like there's not really a lot of talking and, and how much power and insight and just experience that people can, can, uh, get out of, out of doing the breath work. And there's not really any words that are spoken [00:37:00] and, and. Justin Mclendon: I see that as something that's very powerful and very cool, and, and I see a lot of clients taking that kind of, um, that, that away from that experience too, is that so much happened and there were not a whole lot of words that were used, you know, so. Mm-hmm. I don't know. It's just an observation, I guess. Justin Mclendon: Right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: Totally. Yeah. And that's one of the things I love about it. I mean, the human intellect. Mm-hmm. It's one of our, it is our greatest advantage as a species, but it also like, We need some space from it. Yeah. And yeah, after a breathing session, as I'm bringing people back and, and people are starting to come back and be like, whoa. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. I really encourage them like, don't try to make sense of what you just experienced. Right. Yeah. Right. If you are somebody that journals get out your journal and just allow the stream of consciousness to flow of how you're feeling and what came up. But like, It's okay to not have any idea what or why you experienced what you [00:38:00] did. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Yeah. Justin Mclendon: That's cool. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. So what would be kind of like, uh, if you had one takeaway that anybody that's listening or watching the podcast, like what would be like one thing, like a call to action, if you will, like, if somebody's interested in breath work, like, you know, what would you, what would you want them to take away from this? Justin Mclendon: Hmm. Kelsey Rudzinsky: The call to action would be to come back to your breath. Mm-hmm. To recognize that there are these really powerful, deep ways to use the breath, like what I offer, and please come to one of my groups, come to one of my classes, retreats, would love to have you. Mm-hmm. And this is something that. We all have access to, it's free, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: So, and, and I challenge my, um, campers with this every week. Like, give yourself a two minute breathing challenge. Every day. Set a timer on your phone for two minutes and just breathe deep in your [00:39:00] breath. Notice how you feel. Let the breath expand in your body. Allow your exhales to release some of the tension you may be holding, and just notice from there what you experience. Kelsey Rudzinsky: I love it. Yeah, because I, I feel like. I, because we're always breathing and because breathing happens automatically, most people think I know how to breathe like I'm doing it. And really most people are breathing super shallow. Yeah. And so if we go back to the beginning talking about what even is breath and this life force, that is what is feeding ourselves. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Our organs, the more you can expand that breath in your body, think of it as feeding your body, hydrating your body, nourishing your body, so the deeper that you can expand the breath. And what's cool is our bodies are so incredible and so adaptive that even at the [00:40:00] beginning, if you feel like I'm scared of my breath, right? Kelsey Rudzinsky: A lot of people. And that's something that people here have really illuminated for me is that they've shared, you know, when I have a panic attack or when I'm feeling super anxious mm-hmm. It is my breath, right? That feels like I can't catch my breath, right? So when they start breathing, that fear can come up and come back to them. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And so this is a reminder that the breath is safe and the body adapts to that. That's really cool. Yeah, I love that. And I guess one other tip. Sure. If you're gonna open up, brilliant. Go for it. Breath work tips. I can't open myself is to breathe through your nose. Okay. So we have two different ways to breathe right through our nose and through our mouth. Kelsey Rudzinsky: And as we're walking around our everyday lives, we really wanna be breathing through our nose. Mm-hmm. Because, The function of the nose is to breathe. So I think of it as like our built-in air purifier. It moistens the air, it warms [00:41:00] the air. So breathe through your nose, okay? And allow that breath to expand in your body. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Very Justin Mclendon: cool. Awesome. I mean, that's some tips I could probably use for myself. Yeah. I'm gonna B. Reeves: go set my timer in my office right now. Yeah. I promise. You Justin Mclendon: know what's so funny is I, I use an, um, an Apple watch and, uh, every evening about the same time it like dings and it's like, Hey, take a moment and like da da da da da. Justin Mclendon: And like I never do it. I just like dismiss and I just move on. Yeah. So I'm sitting here think, listening to you, and I'm like, you know what? Maybe I should just start taking that opportunity. Right? Yeah. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Take a minute. Yeah. And just take five deep breaths and just know that. Everything that's going on around you and the busyness, it's still gonna be there. Kelsey Rudzinsky: Mm-hmm. So just the more that we can feel centered and calm in our body, the better able we are to show up in our lives for our obligations and for the people that we love. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Well, Kelsey, thank you. Thank you, Kelsey. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you B. Reeves: for all you do here, and thank you for being here today. B. Reeves: [00:42:00] Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. We'll have to have you back again sometime. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Show Notes In this insightful episode of the "Finding New Waters" podcast, we delve into the transformative power of breath work with our special guest, Kelsey Rudzinsky. Kelsey, a breathwork facilitator and a yoga instructor, enlightens us on how this practice can help those on their journey to recovery. Kelsey takes us on a deep dive into the world of breathwork, detailing its origins, her own unique approach, and the profound impact it can have on both individuals and groups. We learn about the correlation between breathwork and trauma release, and how breath work's silent space helps in processing emotions, healing family dynamics, and fostering personal growth. The conversation also explores the role of breathwork in different contexts including couples therapy and family dynamics, and its importance in holistic treatment plans that incorporate yoga, massage, and other non-verbal modalities. Kelsey discusses the empowering and therapeutic effects of breath work on her clients at the treatment center, and challenges listeners to embrace breathwork in their daily lives. A departure from our regular discussions on drugs and alcohol, this episode offers a refreshing and alternative perspective on recovery strategies. For anyone seeking a new approach to healing, Kelsey's expertise on breathwork serves as a compelling call to action. Join us as we uncover the power and potential of our own breath in the road to recovery. Don't miss out on this fascinating conversation on the transformative power of breathwork in the realm of recovery! Tune in now to this enlightening episode of the "Finding New Waters" podcast. Kelsey's Links: https://linktr.ee/breathewithkelsey Podcast Website: ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

In this empowering episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Meredith Brierly—also known online as Clean Coaching Mama—to explore the transformative power of sober living, holistic wellness, and motherhood. Meredith shares her raw and relatable journey through anxiety, addiction, and recovery in New York, to becoming a health coach and leading voice in clean, mindful parenting. < Back to Episodes Clean Living, Honest Recovery: Meredith Brierly on Sobriety, Wellness, and Motherhood 40:34 min | Meredith Brierly | Finding New Waters In this empowering episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Meredith Brierly—also known online as Clean Coaching Mama—to explore the transformative power of sober living, holistic wellness, and motherhood. Meredith shares her raw and relatable journey through anxiety, addiction, and recovery in New York, to becoming a health coach and leading voice in clean, mindful parenting. With 13 years of sobriety, she now helps others live low-tox, purpose-driven lives grounded in recovery principles. Whether you’re a parent, in recovery, or simply seeking healthier habits, Meredith’s story offers inspiration and practical takeaways for living well without obsession or perfection. Subscribe “Sobriety is the anchor for everything in our lives. It’s not about being perfect—it’s about being intentional.” – Meredith Brierly Show Notes In this empowering episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Meredith Brierly—also known online as Clean Coaching Mama—to explore the transformative power of sober living, holistic wellness, and motherhood. Meredith shares her raw and relatable journey through anxiety, addiction, and recovery in New York, to becoming a health coach and leading voice in clean, mindful parenting. With 13 years of sobriety, she now helps others live low-tox, purpose-driven lives grounded in recovery principles. Whether you’re a parent, in recovery, or simply seeking healthier habits, Meredith’s story offers inspiration and practical takeaways for living well without obsession or perfection. Timestamps 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:00 – Meredith’s Sobriety Journey and Family Life 04:00 – Corporate Life and Addiction in NYC 07:00 – Returning to NC and Her Path to Recovery 12:00 – Treatment, Fellowship Hall, and Early Sobriety 16:00 – January 1st: The Last Drink 21:00 – Rebuilding Identity in Sobriety 26:00 – Sober Weddings, Motherhood, and Boundaries 28:00 – From Recovery to Holistic Coaching 32:00 – Pantry Swaps, Mindfulness, and Low-Tox Living 34:00 – Final Words & How to Connect Key Topics Covered • Why recovery doesn’t stop at sobriety—Meredith’s philosophy on integrated healing • How motherhood, anxiety, and faith intersected in her recovery journey • The dangers of hidden added sugar and low-quality foods • Mindful tools like EFT (tapping) and breathwork for busy parents • How she brings recovery principles into holistic health and family coaching Guest Bio Meredith Brierly Certified Health Coach, Speech Therapist, and Founder of Clean Coaching Mama Meredith Brierly is a Certified Health Coach, speech therapist, and mother of two with 13 years of sobriety. Based in Raleigh, North Carolina, Meredith empowers women and families to live cleaner, more intentional lives through practical coaching, wellness workshops, and free resources. Her work blends recovery wisdom with nutrition, emotional regulation, and low-tox living. Website: https://www.cleancoachingmama.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cleancoachingmama Follow Us Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc Watch & Listen Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn SEO Hashtags #MeredithBrierly #CleanLiving #RecoveryJourney #HolisticParenting #SoberMomLife #FindingNewWatersPodcast #MindfulMotherhood #LowToxLiving Powerful Quote “Sobriety is the anchor for everything in our lives. It’s not about being perfect—it’s about being intentional.” – Meredith Brierly

In this empowering episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Meredith Brierly—also known online as Clean Coaching Mama—to explore the transformative power of sober living, holistic wellness, and motherhood. Meredith shares her raw and relatable journey through anxiety, addiction, and recovery in New York, to becoming a health coach and leading voice in clean, mindful parenting. < Back to Episodes From Nightclubs to Recovery: Andrew Maloof on Showing Up and Staying Sober 44:16 min | Andrew Maloof | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Andrew Maloof, co-founder and CEO of Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery in Boise, Idaho. Andrew reflects on his 12 years of sobriety, his journey from working in Las Vegas nightclubs to owning a treatment center, and how a moment of spiritual surrender changed everything. Together, they dive into what makes treatment effective, why hospitality and connection matter in recovery, and the power of simply showing up. Subscribe “Just show up. Be on time. Be present. You can’t pretend to care, but you can’t pretend to show up.” – Andrew Maloof Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Andrew Maloof, co-founder and CEO of Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery in Boise, Idaho. Andrew reflects on his 12 years of sobriety, his journey from working in Las Vegas nightclubs to owning a treatment center, and how a moment of spiritual surrender changed everything. Together, they dive into what makes treatment effective, why hospitality and connection matter in recovery, and the power of simply showing up. Whether you’re sober-curious, in long-term recovery, or supporting a loved one, Andrew’s humility, humor, and real-life experience offer deep insight and encouragement. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Introduction • [01:00] Sobriety Milestones & The Masters Moment • [04:00] Following Directions: A Recipe for Recovery • [08:00] Fellowship, Inventory, and Staying Connected • [12:00] Embarrassment vs. Empowerment in Getting Sober • [17:00] From UNLV to Las Vegas Nightclubs to Recovery • [20:00] Founding Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery • [24:00] Hospitality in Treatment: Why It Matters • [29:00] That First Honest Prayer • [32:00] Living the Easier, Softer Way • [36:00] Just Show Up: Final Reflections Key Topics: • The importance of connection in early and ongoing recovery • How hospitality plays a key role in healing environments • The founding of Eagle Creek Ranch and their philosophy of care • What makes a treatment experience truly transformational • Why showing up beats pretending every time Guest Bio: Andrew Maloof is the co-founder and CEO of Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery,(https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com/) a residential treatment center for men based in Idaho. With a background in hospitality management from UNLV and a personal recovery journey spanning more than a decade, Andrew combines professional excellence with lived experience. He’s passionate about creating healing spaces grounded in compassion, accountability, and the 12 Steps. Resources & Links: • Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery Website: https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com(https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com/) • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/eaglecreekranchrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/eaglecreekranchrecovery) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) SEO Hashtags: #AndrewMaloof #EagleCreekRecovery #RecoveryPodcast #12StepRecovery #AddictionRecovery #FindingNewWatersPodcast #SoberLife #HolisticHealing Powerful Quote: “Just show up. Be on time. Be present. You can’t pretend to care, but you can’t pretend to show up.”

In this heartfelt episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Tripp Tracy, the iconic voice of the Carolina Hurricanes, as he shares his powerful story of recovery and self-discovery. Tripp opens up about his journey through alcoholism, his moment of surrender, and the pivotal role his support system and 12-step program played in his transformation. < Back to Episodes Building Impact: Adams Pritchard on Transforming Recovery in Alabama and Beyond 38:56 min | Adams Pritchard | Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we welcome Adams Pritchard, founder and CEO of Impact Recovery Center in Birmingham, Alabama. Adams shares his personal recovery story, which led him to create a unique, highly effective program centered on 12-step immersion and individualized clinical care. He discusses the challenges of modern treatment models, the importance of involving families in the recovery process, and the groundbreaking work being done at Impact Recovery. With a focus on efficiency, spiritual growth, and community engagement, Adams is changing the way addiction treatment is approached, making a lasting impact on both individuals and the broader recovery landscape. Subscribe “We don’t need more treatment centers—we need better treatment. Recovery happens when it’s done right.” – Adams Pritchard Show Notes In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we welcome Adams Pritchard, founder and CEO of Impact Recovery Center in Birmingham, Alabama. Adams shares his personal recovery story, which led him to create a unique, highly effective program centered on 12-step immersion and individualized clinical care. He discusses the challenges of modern treatment models, the importance of involving families in the recovery process, and the groundbreaking work being done at Impact Recovery. With a focus on efficiency, spiritual growth, and community engagement, Adams is changing the way addiction treatment is approached, making a lasting impact on both individuals and the broader recovery landscape. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Meet Adams Pritchard, founder and CEO of Impact Recovery. - **[03:00] Personal Journey**: Adams opens up about his own recovery and experiences in treatment. - **[06:00] The Mission of Impact Recovery**: How Adams built a program to provide effective, rapid recovery solutions. - **[09:00] 12-Step Immersion**: The importance of working through all 12 steps within the treatment program. - **[13:00] Family Engagement**: The unique family program designed to help loved ones recover alongside clients. - **[17:00] Individualized Clinical Care**: Combining clinical expertise with spiritual and community-based recovery. - **[22:00] The Role of Insurance**: Why Impact Recovery chose to avoid working with insurance companies. - **[30:00] The Contaminated Drug Supply**: Discussing the dangers of fentanyl and other synthetic drugs in today’s market. - **[34:00] Future Plans**: Expansion and what’s next for Impact Recovery. - **[36:00] Closing Thoughts**: How to connect with Adams and learn more about Impact Recovery. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **12-Step Immersion**: The transformative power of completing the steps during treatment. 2. **Family Recovery**: How helping families navigate Al-Anon and their own healing contributes to client success. 3. **Tailored Care**: The balance between individualized clinical work and spiritual recovery. 4. **Breaking the Mold**: Why Adams chose a non-traditional approach, rejecting the constraints of insurance-driven care. 5. **Drug Supply Risks**: Raising awareness about the contaminated drug market and its dangers. --- ### Guest Bio: **Adams Pritchard** **Founder and CEO, Impact Recovery Center** Adams Pritchard is the founder and CEO of Impact Recovery Center, located just outside Birmingham, Alabama. After years of battling addiction and attending numerous treatment centers, Adams developed a passion for creating a program that would truly work for individuals and their families. His recovery model combines 12-step immersion, individualized clinical care, and a strong emphasis on family engagement. Today, Impact Recovery has grown into a nationally recognized program, helping clients from across the country achieve lasting sobriety and personal transformation. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Impact Recovery Center Website:** https://www.impactrecoverycenter.net(https://www.impactrecoverycenter.net/) - **Al-Anon Family Groups:** https://al-anon.org(https://al-anon.org/) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook:** https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn:** https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok:** https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) - **Spotify:** https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) - **Apple Podcast:** https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube:** https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music:** https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Laurie Dhue, a Certified Recovery Specialist and one of the nation’s leading recovery advocates. Laurie opens up about her journey from a successful career as a national news anchor to finding her purpose in long-term recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction. < Back to Episodes Family Whisperer: Dr. Louise Stanger on Transforming Recovery with Compassion and Boundaries 40:32 min | Dr. Louise Stanger| Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are joined by the renowned Dr. Louise Stanger, acclaimed interventionist, author, and family coach. Known as the “Family Whisperer,” Dr. Stanger shares her groundbreaking approaches to addiction recovery and family dynamics, including her innovative “Change Agreement” methodology. With decades of experience working with high-acuity families, Dr. Stanger discusses the critical role of boundaries, compassion, and systemic change in achieving lasting recovery. She also reflects on her personal journey of resilience and how it has shaped her dedication to helping others heal. Subscribe “No is just a conversation starter.” – -Dr. Louise Stanger Show Notes Episode Summary: In this episode of Finding New Waters, we are joined by the renowned Dr. Louise Stanger, acclaimed interventionist, author, and family coach. Known as the “Family Whisperer,” Dr. Stanger shares her groundbreaking approaches to addiction recovery and family dynamics, including her innovative “Change Agreement” methodology. With decades of experience working with high-acuity families, Dr. Stanger discusses the critical role of boundaries, compassion, and systemic change in achieving lasting recovery. She also reflects on her personal journey of resilience and how it has shaped her dedication to helping others heal. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction: Welcome and overview of the episode. • [01:00] Meet Dr. Louise Stanger: Her career journey and passion for family interventions. • [04:00] The Power of Boundaries: Why boundaries are essential in recovery and how to establish them with love. • [08:00] Change Agreements: Dr. Stanger introduces her unique approach to aligning families and loved ones during recovery. • [12:00] Trauma-Informed Care: How her personal experiences of loss and resilience have informed her methods. • [18:00] Family Mapping: The process of creating a “portrait” of the family dynamic to guide intervention and treatment. • [24:00] Collaborative Recovery Models: The importance of teamwork among families, professionals, and treatment centers. • [30:00] Writing as Advocacy: Dr. Stanger’s books and their impact on recovery education. • [36:00] Closing Thoughts: Advice for families and how to connect with Dr. Stanger. Key Points Discussed: 1. Boundaries and Compassion: Dr. Stanger explains why setting boundaries is an act of love that creates space for healing. 2. Change Agreements: Aligning families and loved ones around shared goals for recovery. 3. Family Mapping as a Tool: Using visual storytelling to understand and address family dynamics. 4. Personal Resilience: How Dr. Stanger’s experiences with trauma have fueled her mission to help others. 5. Tailored Recovery Solutions: The need for individualized approaches to treatment and support. Guest Bio: Dr. Louise Stanger Acclaimed Interventionist, Family Coach, and Author Dr. Louise Stanger is a licensed clinician, interventionist, and the founder of All About Interventions. Known for her innovative approaches, including the “Change Agreement” and family mapping, Dr. Stanger works with high-acuity families navigating substance use and mental health challenges. She has authored multiple books, including Falling Up: A Memoir of Resilience and The Definitive Guide to Intervention. Her upcoming book, Reflections on Aging from the Sunset Marquee, explores the intersection of wellness and aging. Resources Mentioned: • All About Interventions: https://www.allaboutinterventions.com • Youth Prevention Mentors: https://www.ypmprogram.com • Books by Dr. Louise Stanger: Available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn • Google Podcast:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. SEO Hashtags: #FamilyIntervention #AddictionRecovery #LouiseStanger #FindingNewWatersPodcast #BoundariesInRecovery #ChangeAgreement #TraumaInformedCare #FamilyMapping Powerful Quote: “No is just a conversation starter.” – Dr. Louise Stanger

In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *No Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *No Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. < Back to Episodes Turning Loss into Action: Freida MacDonald on Finding Hope and Helping Others 39:51 min | Freida MacDonald | Finding New Waters In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *Know Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. Freida’s powerful message underscores the value of meeting people where they are, breaking stigma, and staying connected to resources for long-term recovery. Subscribe "If we bring it out of the darkness and into the light, it stops being a monster. We can face it together, and that’s where hope begins." - -Freida MacDonald Show Notes In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *Know Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. Freida’s powerful message underscores the value of meeting people where they are, breaking stigma, and staying connected to resources for long-term recovery. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and overview of the episode. - **[01:00] Meet Freida MacDonald**: Freida introduces herself and the story behind *Know Hope North Carolina*. - **[04:00] Turning Loss into Purpose**: How Freida transformed the loss of her sons into a mission to support others. - **[08:00] The Critical Role of Resources**: Advocacy for accessible detox centers, affordable aftercare, and recovery programs. - **[13:00] The Power of Personalization**: How *Know Hope NC* honors lives lost through banners and billboards. - **[18:00] Harm Reduction and Hope**: Meeting individuals where they are in their recovery journey and reducing stigma. - **[24:00] Addressing Opioid Settlement Funding**: Freida discusses how opioid funds can be allocated to create lasting impact. - **[28:00] Virtual Resources for Recovery**: How virtual support and grief groups are creating access for rural and underserved communities. - **[31:00] Breaking the Stigma**: Encouraging families to talk about addiction openly and truthfully. - **[35:00] Closing Thoughts**: Ways to get involved with *Know Hope North Carolina* and other recovery resources. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Turning Grief into Action**: Freida shares her journey of honoring her sons’ legacies through meaningful service. 2. **The Importance of Resources**: Addressing the need for affordable detox centers, aftercare options, and accessible recovery solutions. 3. **Harm Reduction Saves Lives**: Why meeting individuals where they are—free of judgment—creates opportunities for change. 4. **Billboards and Banners**: How Freida’s initiatives bring awareness and humanize addiction by sharing real faces and stories. 5. **Virtual Support and Community**: Leveraging technology to provide resources and connection for those in rural areas or lacking transportation. --- ### Guest Bio: **Freida MacDonald** **Founder, Know Hope North Carolina** Freida MacDonald is the founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*, a nonprofit dedicated to reducing stigma, honoring lives lost to addiction, and connecting individuals to recovery resources. After losing her two sons—Stephen to gun violence and Michael to fentanyl—Freida turned her grief into purpose, advocating for harm reduction, increased access to resources, and ongoing support for individuals and families. Through her work with *Know Hope NC* and the Alcohol and Drug Council of North Carolina, Freida has helped countless individuals find hope and healing. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Know Hope North Carolina**: [https://www.knowhopenorthcarolina.com](https://www.knowhopenorthcarolina.com) - **Alcohol & Drug Council of North Carolina (Recovery Helpline)**: http://help4recovery.org(http://help4recovery.org/) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram**: [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook**: [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn**: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok**: [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website**: [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify**: [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) - **Apple Podcast**: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube**: [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music**: [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) - **Google Podcast**: [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. --- #AddictionAwareness #HarmReduction #GriefSupport #KnowHopeNorthCarolina #FreidaMacDonald #FindingNewWatersPodcast #OpioidCrisis #BreakingTheStigma #RecoveryResources --

Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Brad Kennedy shares his inspiring story < Back to Episodes Navigating the Road to Recovery: A Discussion with Brad Kennedy from Driftwood Recovery 38:56 min | Brad Kennedy | Finding New Waters An engaging discussion with Brad Kennedy, the COO and partner at Driftwood Recovery, regarding the unique challenges and innovative methods in helping individuals overcome addiction. Brad elucidates upon the philosophy of fostering self-reliance in their recipients and emphasizes the importance of tailoring treatment based on individual needs rather than purely usage duration. The conversation also touches upon Driftwood's efforts to redefine and treat pain in relation to substance abuse, and developing a recovery plan in line with the individual's time, needs, and resources. Lastly, Brad highlights the significance of a supportive environment and empathy in recovery path. Subscribe "We always say that we don't have any special therapeutic tricks or modalities that are trademarked. What we have is a culture that we're uncompromising about." -Brad Kennedy Transcript Brad Kennedy Brad Kennedy: [00:00:00] As new stressors and your brain comes back online after being sober, it's not, I had a guy who was here and he's like, my goal, I mean, from the jump is to be fully present. And he went through residential, he stayed with us for, I think, 60 or 90 days at the Riverside house. Did amazing work. Anyone would say you got A pluses for his recovery, his therapy work, all of it. He went back and he called me this fully present stuff is for the birds, man, my Boyfriend my son's worried. He's not gonna make the football team. Like, you know, he went down the list of these normal things He hasn't dealt with for years So it doesn't stick, right? And you need that support. You need people to bounce things off of. You need to create, I think, as a field, we need to find ways to train people not to need us.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Graham Durgie, and I'm the CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery down here in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined today with our executive director, Justin McClendon. And our guest today is the one and only Mr. Brad Kennedy. from Driftwood Recovery. Um, Brad is the chief operating officer and partner at Driftwood Recovery. And I actually have some experience. I did a little, uh, I did a, about a year and a half of work where I was with Driftwood. Um, so obviously know the team intimately and all the work that they do. I still send Quite a few clients to them because in my opinion, they're one of the best in the business. Um, if I have a family member, if I have somebody, you know, very close to me that needs to go to treatment, driftwood is always at the top [00:02:00] of my list. So I'm very excited to have Brad on here today. Um, and Brad, I always kind of like to start these things out, obviously just, uh, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this work. Obviously it's pretty unique work that we do. So, uh, I think it's always interesting just to learn how people kind of find themselves to Brad Kennedy: that. Well, thank you so much for the kind introduction, Graham. It's really a pleasure to have some time to talk to you guys today. You know, I yeah, I kind of have taken a meandering path into this work. I certainly, you know, through my own personal experience, I had a need to seek support in different forms and fashions in terms of Really kind of a philosophy that I, that we hold true to at Driftwood today is trying to become the best version of yourself. And while I maybe wasn't that, I always throughout my life, um, and I was meandering through, like I had finished college and [00:03:00] I was working at Starbucks and I had a man who had become my, one of my mentors, Dr. Al Reister, uh, was a, was a regular customer there. And he came in and asked me, Hey, what are you going to do? It was like, you're graduating and. At the time I was really into running and triathlons and I said, well, I think I might do this 5k and then I'll work up to this. And he's like, no, I mean your life. And so, uh, you know, my first foray into the field was I was working with a preparation for adult living program. So I worked with foster kids, um, and really helped try to teach them independent living skills. And from that moment forward, uh, I did a number of different things, uh, in the helping industry. I worked at a treatment center in upstate New York, which is where I'm originally from. Um, And then ended up eventually finding my way to the Menninger Clinic where I worked for 14 years. Graham Doerge: Right. And Menninger is one of, you [00:04:00] know, kind of the top psychiatric programs across the country. Been around for what, 40 plus years? And, you know, one of the real staples in that world. So, obviously, great pedigree. You've, you've, uh, you know, being with them for so long, uh, you know, you're Your, you know, foundation is just so strong. And that's, that's, that's the thing that always stood out to me at driftwood is like the clinical team was so strong, you know, um, and all of you just that multidisciplinary team and everybody kind of having their own little specialty. Right. Brad Kennedy: Yeah. That's the model is really trying to make, I think you make yourself better by surrounding yourself with people that. Have skills that maybe you don't. Right. And the basic understanding, if you have 15 people in a team meeting, 15 lines are better than one or two, if you're just sitting in an individual session. So that's a kind of eat to the work that we have and dropping any egos over whose client or program they're in. It's like, what does that person [00:05:00] need? And how do we set up a team that allows for that Graham Doerge: experience? Yeah, a hundred percent. So there was a couple things that I pulled off the website that I just wanted to read quickly because I really like them and I think that you can, this will kind of be the catalyst to start, uh, start this conversation. Um, so from the website, Driftwood's approach is founded on an attachment based sanctuary informed model. Can you dig into that a little bit and, and just kind of let our audience, uh, understand what that Brad Kennedy: means? Yeah, absolutely. So I think when we hear like fancy psycho babble jargon, like attachment and sanctuary model, so our brains can kind of shut down. Um, and really to me, it's as simple as like the end result of actual addiction is a process where you really feel alienated from yourself and a really simple distilled down version of a secure attachment. is the opportunity to feel known, understood, and accepted. Known being the facts, right, which we generally pick [00:06:00] up in relationships pretty quickly. The understood part is the complexities of emotion and identifying, understanding, and expressing emotions. And then accepting, being like having people that you feel close to. And when you're using for a long time, and substance abuse disorder can rear its ugly head, you can really become pretty alienated from that. But the saddest part of that is when you become alienated from yourself, right? And you don't feel understood or accepting of yourself. You actively are repressing those emotions. When you look in the mirror, uh, it's not an accepting stance one is taking on, right? It's one generally people describe as a shame based, uh, response to that. And so we wanted to develop a program to help re establish the connection to oneself. And then bring in the context of recovery. We have a slogan like more context, more recovery. So family members, loved ones, whoever it may be, so that you can look at that ostracism that has [00:07:00] naturally occurred through the process. So when we say attachment, that's part of what we're talking about. Yeah, that's awesome. Justin Mclendon: You know what came up for me when you were talking about that is I'm a I'm a big fan and I guess a big student if you could if you could put it that way of Spirituality and like what spirituality means to us and just hearing you talk about that That was kind of the first thing that came up for me was you know, those same concepts is not And not to turn this podcast into one about spirituality or anything like that, I promise I won't do that. But, you know, that same idea is that, you know, removing or stepping away from this idea that there's this, you know Uh, big figure in the sky, but more of this idea of spirituality being like those things, right? Like acceptance, you know, uh, connection, mindful awareness, like, you know, living a life that is an engaging in, in relationships, uh, that is fulfilling and connected in, in kind of a healthier way of [00:08:00] life, if you will. Right. So I don't know, just throw in, throw in a couple ideas in there that came up while you were talking. Brad Kennedy: Yeah, I love that. We love that. Yeah. You know, it brings to mind, I worked, the first treatment center I ever worked at was a place called St. Joseph's recovery in the Adirondacks of upstate New York. And they had this tapestry on the wall, you know, certain things, when you see them, they just become kind of imprinted on your brain. And it said, if you want to know if a man is religious or not, don't ask him, follow him around for a week. I'm probably butchering it, but it was, that's, I love that. And so I think it really does tie into what you're saying, which is. How is the practice of recovery coming to life for people? How is, how are their feelings resonating within them? I mean, there are fancy modality names for it, I think. But when you really distill down amazing therapy and recovery, it's really. How do you start to, well, go for the luxury and love yourself again and love others, [00:09:00] or how do you just feel connected to yourself again or aware maybe is where most people start early on. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And having that, that moment when you were saying looking in the mirror, I mean, I have that distinct moment of, of in being in my boss, uh, basement in Boston before I got into treatment and looking in the mirror and just having no idea who that human was, right? And just, and literally just feeling like I'm looking at a total stranger. Like I just had left, lost my whole identity and, and who I was. Right. And, um, so that isolating behavior is so scary, so terrifying. And it come into a place like driftwood. I mean, I know when I got there, the, and even just to visit the program, there was just like a vibe on the campus. Right. And it's just, you know, you're in Austin, Texas. It's a great place. It's a very, you know, kind of cool, funky place to be in general, but. It is such a family atmosphere and such a warm, loving place. And, um, and I just, that's [00:10:00] so important. It's, you know, it's not institutional. It's, you know, it's a really hopeful, beautiful place where people can, um, you know, take that next step in life. So, um, you guys have done an amazing job with that. Brad Kennedy: It really has a dream for us, right? And I say us, I mean, there's Peter who's, uh, Flores is one of our founders. My wife also works here. Dr. Vanessa Kennedy. I always tell people it's a Dr. Mr. Situation. It keeps my ego in check early on with this dream. Like, can we, can we do it? And I'll tell you one day, it's kind of a strange story, but one day where it really became true to me is we had a guy. Um, one of the staff came and said, Hey, this guy's upset. He's walking towards the gate, which is a long walk. You wouldn't want to walk, uh, from here. But before I could even get there, one of the guys, uh, who's our, one of our facilities guys was walking next to him. And I thought that's a model. Uh, [00:11:00] that's not in that guy's job description. He's not trying to do anything, but he gets the ethos and the shared culture that we have. We always say that we don't have any special therapeutic tricks or modalities that are trademarked. What we have is a culture that we're uncompromising about. And whether it's an attachment model or trauma informed, meaning we've all been through some pain and we all need some help to get out of it. That's something that we accept. We show up, um, from the kitchen staff to the docs. People are showing up with that shared mental model and wanting to approach and help in that way. Graham Doerge: Yep. Yep. That's even, even down to, you know, the staff eating with the clients and having that moment during lunch where kind of the barriers are taken down and you can have that, that real connection and that intimate moment, um, where they're not feeling like they're being therapized. Right. And, you know, those moments are sometimes some of the most powerful, powerful experiences that these guys have in treatment and those real breakthrough moments. So it's like having, you know, you're [00:12:00] not just doing work when you're in group, it's, it's happening all around you. And at all times, Brad Kennedy: right? Absolutely. And then we have a house, we have a house in, uh, Austin that we call our community integration program. We designed it with that, Mike, I'm going to carry out the attachment based model, right? And how do you take the show on the road? It's really cool in this bubble of residential treatment that arrests active addiction is completely necessary. And is absolutely beautiful, but we want to make sure that momentum carries forward. And how do you create those meaningful, secure attachments in real life? Um, and there's a whole team that supports people to do that. And it's a really kind of magic moment too, when you realize like, Oh, this doesn't happen just in a session or with the super accepting, uh, uh, it can happen in real life. If I'm showing up in a certain way that's more authentic and true to my values and the values of recovery and that. Yeah. [00:13:00] Yeah, absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Can you tell us a little bit about, I mean, we know, especially Graham know a lot about Driftwood, but you know, maybe for the people that are, that are listening and watching. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, the program and like level of care, length of stay, what happens, what's the. Maybe the perfect client. The Brad Kennedy: perfect client. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when you find them. Please send it my way, you know, Graham Doerge: perfect Brad Kennedy: client is someone that has a willingness to learn about themselves. Right. And the spark that often comes in a company's labels, like. A treatment resistant client is not something that, to me, it's like you have this spark inside you that doesn't allow you to fall into a trap of compliance for compliance sake, and you may actively debate things and appear in what clinical terms would be oppositional, narcissistic, insert your pathologized term here. That's not the barrier. The barrier is what's really getting in the [00:14:00] way of you accepting the best version of yourself. Right. And is it a fear or pressure or the fear of hope that the belief that change is positive and possible is so overwhelming that you're like, dude, I'm never going to be that Brad Kennedy, I'm going to be Starbucks entity, it's not going to happen, whatever. So, um, the perfect client to me is just has some willingness, the ability to hit the pause button occasionally and think. Maybe I don't have it all figured out, right? And we, I think, have the responsibility as a team to assemble a team that creates opportunities for that kind of change. Um, so I'm sorry, I went off on like the bad history teacher that goes off on 10. No, I love it. No, I love it. That's, uh, to me, the perfect like, you get the willingness, even if they have an edge to their presentation, um, we get it, right? Um, there's a fancy therapy clinical term for it called epistemic mistrust, right? It's like something happens in your [00:15:00] life. That doesn't allow you to trust your primary caregivers, uh, whoever that may be, maybe your parents, maybe your partner, whatever. So that's, that's ruptured. Through active addiction, your trust of your mind will get ruptured, right? It's par for the course, um, that you can't, people will come to you and also say, Hey, do your best thinking. And AA has slogans for their like, your best thinking got you here, right? But it's, you can't trust your mind. And then you have somebody show up like me and you're like, but I'm Brad Kennedy, I'm going to be super nice to you. And you're like, who the hell are you? Why should I trust you? I, I don't trust the people I'm biologically wired to trust. I can't trust my own thinking right now. So some guy sitting in an office on a nice campus, you're the You're the savior. I don't think so. And so that's the elephant in the room. Right? Is that mistrust oftentimes that makes people think, well, they don't want to change as if it's a readiness question. And it's really like a human being [00:16:00] question. Maybe they're pretty wise not to trust yet because they're afraid of being hopeful, right? What the family or loved ones might think. If you do start doing better, people want you to replicate that. So, Graham Doerge: sorry, I got fired up over that. And, and so how do you, how do you approach that client and how do you break through that? And, and what's the methodology there? Yeah. Brad Kennedy: So, attachment takes time, right? And so, the first thing is the ability to have clinicians that know what to do with the things that get unearthed through the recovery and therapeutic and treatment process. The second is the time to do it. So we have very small caseloads complete compared for our clinicians compared to most people yet They're probably working as much or more hours than anyone, right? Because they're trying to find a way in and they're trying to point out where the incongruence is between how that person sees himself [00:17:00] or is presenting themselves and how they're really showing up in life And sometimes we need people to say, Hey, Graham, when I saw you in Boston and looking in that mirror, I actually saw a guy who was scared and you're like, Oh, I wasn't scared of this fella, bring up a moment. So, right. And, and they're like, yeah, but you know, they're bringing those two realities together. Um, yeah, we create that. We have a group programming that's basically designed to basically every day you're getting. A open process group, right? This kind of traditional group psychotherapy. And we bring in trainers to train our clinicians in like, what is, how do you find those dynamics, those repeated patterns and no one likes to look at the hidden dynamics in their level, like, I don't know about you guys, but when people bring those up to me, I'm like. Yeah, probably not. They're like, I'm going to get defensive the first time, probably. So we have, you can bring it up people that can curate a community [00:18:00] and have a shared experience. We use evidence based behavioral practices because all the insight in the world without action. Just leads to more frustration. So it's one thing to know, Hey, I don't have a voice in my family, but if you don't have a dbt, dear man, to know how to speak up next time, that situation presents itself, you're just kind of fuming and silence. So we teach a lot of skills dbt that apply very readily to addiction. And then we do a lot of recovery group. There are principles in recovery, honesty, grief and loss, resentments. How do you deal with that stuff? Um, and trying to find a pathway that people can really work on that in their own way. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And the thing that was coming up for me right there was, was the, uh, like the people pleasing, right? It is such a common, um, attribute and, and I'm a huge. Uh, you know, victim of this and, and, and I [00:19:00] think I'm better at it now, but early on, I mean, you know, that was, it was just kind of like, how do I stay under the radar? And, and, you know, uh, obviously, you know, giving people the answer that they wanted was a good way to do that. But obviously, um, your process, I think really kind of gets them out of that head, head frame, you know, um, and meet some where they're at, which is awesome. Brad Kennedy: Thanks. Yeah. I mean, we're all, to me, the best solutions are co created. Right. So no matter how awesome a program may be, a clinician may be, a peer group may be, if you don't have a shared narrative between you and the other party, it's really hard to buy in. Right. And you may know the right and you may even agree. Yeah, that's the best way to deal it. Do it. I can't do it, but that's a really cool way to deal with, uh, right. So it's creating, I think this is what's going on, allowing the space to check. And asking the person how I move forward, right? Sometimes they already know, [00:20:00] right? Um, or there's invisible vultures like fear, anxiety, resentment. Graham Doerge: And so this is a long process. It takes a long time, right? So how long are clients typically with you guys? And what's, what's in your opinion for a positive outcome? What's the best scenario for length of stay? Brad Kennedy: Yeah. I mean, so I think our average length of stay at residential is around 47 days, right? Uh, some people detox when they come in sometimes. People come from great detox experience like you guys have and they show up ready, minds are ready as well to do the work. Um, and then you need some kind of aftercare after that, right? And I think depending on your lifestyle and you know, the treatment's expensive. Um, how do you continue to keep the momentum that you get going from a residential experience into real [00:21:00] life? Um, so we're always trying to help people envision a plan. It's not a 30 day problem. It's a one year problem, is the way I think about it. And it's, does it stop at a year? Of course not. But like, let's not make the finish line something that's deceiving to an individual. That the work is very, very difficult. Um, as new stressors and your brain comes back online after being sober, It's not, I had a guy who was here and he's like, My goal, I mean, from the jump, is to be fully present. And he went through residential. He stayed with us for, I think, 60 or 90 days at the Riverside House. Did amazing work. Anyone would say, uh, A pluses for his recovery, his therapy work, all of it. He went back home. He called me. This fully present stuff is for the birds, man. My teenage boyfriend, my son's worried he's not going to make the football team. Like, you know, he went down the list of these normal things he hasn't dealt with for years. So it doesn't [00:22:00] stop. Right. And you need that support. You need people to bounce things off of need to create. I think as a field, we need to find ways to train people not to need us. Right. So you need to find right. A meeting where you can share and connect you need to find a group where you can share and connect that you're not paying by The hour right as much as I love some of my long term clients That's my goal for everyone is like, how do you find that within? And maybe there's times when you you go back to a therapist you had or a sponsor you had and you're like, hey I really need help. Um, but you one of the mentors I had was peter fonagy And he said don't you think the best coping skill you can teach somebody is the ability to think for themselves? And, um, wow, that's, uh, that's a good point. It's hard to argue with that one. That's Graham Doerge: huge. That's huge. Yeah. And I mean, in your mindset too, as a therapist, you know, your goal is to get this person, you know, self sufficient and on their own. And, you know, unfortunately a lot of [00:23:00] therapists, that's, they, they, they want you coming back for, you know, an extended period of time. So it's not only, you know, that, that kind of a mindset. So being careful about that, I think is also good too, but I know you had a question. Well, I was just Brad Kennedy: thinking, you Justin Mclendon: know, when you were talking like, you know, so we have, Yeah. I think we would agree that year trajectory is, is, uh, should be gold standard. Again, that's my opinion, right? But, um, you know, it's, it's hard, especially being on the very front end, you know, operating a detox facility like we do here at New Waters Recovery. Uh, we have a client that's come in, we're working with the client, we're working with the family, we're having discussions about, okay, this is what's going on, this, this is our recommendation for moving forward. Uh, that is a hard pill to swallow to say, hey guys, we're not talking about. The next 30, 45 days here. We're talking about the next six months, the next year and what that needs to look like. Um, and that, uh, that can sometimes be a, you know, a big conversation to, to broach with, with clients and families. Um, you [00:24:00] know, so, you know, I think, you know, the way we handle that is, okay, let's not worry about what's going to happen 365 days from now. Let's worry about what are we going to do next. And then I really like what you said, Brad, about, We, we really should be, I think, collectively as an industry, as individuals that provide care for other people, like, um, really working towards that goal of, you know, somewhere in this process, we're letting go of those reins, the client is taking control of those reins, and that needs to become something to where they're providing their own care, so to speak, right? They are the source of their own Uh, change and they, and they find, you know, places where they can receive that, that support that doesn't have to be in a facility setting. It doesn't have to be necessarily a, you know, an extensive team of professionals that's working with them. Because at the end of the day, I mean, we all just want to We just want to live life, right? We want to make good decisions. We want to have good connections. And like, we kind of started the conversation with, we just want to be healthy people, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I love it. So we have that, we have that same philosophy. [00:25:00] Brad Kennedy: Yeah. I think the way I think about it too, is we all have different measuring sticks for how we're going to measure our values in our life and our quality of life. And how can we partner with the people that are trusting us enough to seek help to develop their own recovery milestones? I don't know how you like i've been doing this for a long time. There's nothing. No, there's not a discussion I dislike more than talking about number of days in treatment. I have like Yeah, I can see it based on research sure it makes a lot of sense But really, if you start to define what does it mean, like, what are the outcomes that you're looking for? So for that example I used, I want to be able to handle the reality of my children's lives without feeling so overwhelmed that I feel like, man, I don't really even want to be fully present. You know, and start to define, for each, each of us define those recovery milestones. And they plateau and they keep going right through my I through [00:26:00] my own therapeutic work. I always I feel like man i've really tried really hard at therapy, but I always find something to do To work on life keeps throwing me more curve balls And then I have to define what I'm going to do with those things rather than stagnate. And that's okay. Um, but making it about that, what's the current challenge you have versus numbering days? Um, cause that's, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Graham Doerge: Sorry. Yeah. A hundred percent. No, no. And, and no, I totally agree. You know, that, that conversation of, you know, how long is this going to take? And hey, listen, it takes what it takes, you know, and, and it's like, you know, the only thing that I had to change was. Everything, you know, and, and those are all kind of, you know, slogans, whatever you want to call it, but, uh, that's just the reality. And the person that I am today has is so far from the person that I was when I was 25 years old. Right. And, um, you know, I really even look at it as like act one and act two, [00:27:00] you know, and, uh, you know, obviously I struggled in that first act and, but, you know. In the same respect, I wouldn't change anything because all of those things that I went through that I experienced, the hardships, that's who, that's who I am now. That's what made me who I am. And, you know, it's like, um, you know, people look at this, at this as being such a detrimental crisis. Right. And, and the reality is, I think a lot of us look back on it five, 10 years down the line and we're like, God, thank God that that happened to me because I have so much more empathy. I have so much more compassion. I have so much more just like awareness for, uh, How to treat people well, you know, and how to have a connection in a relationship and all those things, you know, and having fellowship. I mean, I, I think we're truly lucky to have, you know, the resources that we have an AA and these, these amazing 12 step fellowships, you know, it would be great if a lot of people had these, uh, these in their regular life. I think our world would be a much different place if people had a place to go like that. It's true. So that being said, I [00:28:00] also wanted to talk a little bit about, um, the pain management program that you guys have, because that's pretty unique to you all. There's not a lot of folks that are doing it in, in the way that you guys are. So, um, and that's a real problem. You know, we've got a lot of young adults or not young adults, sorry, older adults who are, you know, having chronic pain issues, they've had accidents, they've had falls, they get prescribed pills by doctors and before they know it. They're hooked. They're addicted. They're physically addicted and they don't know how to get off. Right. And a lot of times it's psychosomatic and there's, you know, a lot of complex, you know, issues with that. So, um, you guys have an incredible, uh, team, uh, handling that over there. So you want to dig into that a little bit? Brad Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, talk about coming by it fairly to your point, Graham is, uh, you know, you have a number of injuries. Doctors often are prescribing drugs that trigger something genetically that then triggers a whole addictive process that maybe that person wasn't [00:29:00] actively seeking, but literally fell into on the ski mountain or through playing sports or other things. And then they look up one day and they're, they're physiologically and psychologically dependent. And so for people that have that kind of chronic pain and addiction tendency, we've designed a program because they're, they're, uh, defenses and they're, the way to engage that crowd can be a little different, right? And the guy who is stuck in frat party mode or something like that, you know, it's a different presentation. Um, and we've had athletes and other things in that program. And really what we're trying to do is if they've, they've, Look at all the medical issues that are there, right? They've had the surgeries, things have been dealt with to maximum medical benefit, but the substance use is still there. We're looking to change their psychological relationship to pain. Right. And there's regions and neural pathways in your brain that could [00:30:00] just get. The end of this pain and this stress is through taking this medication. And the sad part is, you're right. But, the end result of, uh, tolerance and habituation to those medications that were designed to be short term to help you recover from a hip surgery, shoulder surgery, going through all the surgeries I've had, uh, uh, like, those things that were designed to be band aids on that. We're not designed to be lifelong medications in that way. 100%. And so we work. And Graham Doerge: in fact, they stopped working in a lot of cases, Brad Kennedy: right? Yeah, exactly. They, people become, there's a loss of like feeling psychologically and physiologically. Like what am I, why am I even taking this? Um, and so we work with people to identify the feelings in their body. Um, and really start to see are they fused to other things? Uh, that are fueling. I think we call [00:31:00] it like the psychological underpinnings of that form of addiction. So is it a fear that this chronic condition is going to get worse? Can we find exceptions to the pain through experiential activities, sometimes as simple as walking or water aerobics or hanging out? We have awesome trainers here that will find exercises that people can do is pain free as It is possible. We have hand bikes, things like that, where we're, we're trying to find the experience where you're moving, but you're like, not feeling that physiological pain. Graham Doerge: But so much of the time too, I feel like it's the fact that these people haven't been moving. Right. And you know, just doing some yoga and doing some movement and just kind of like restorative yoga, very light. Yep. It's getting the blood flow and getting and building some strength to whether it's, you know, I know a lot of people have these back issues and it's, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, your core, right? It's like we've got to build some strength there too. And obviously if there's a real injury, [00:32:00] that's one thing. But, um, doing that slowly and surely I know you guys work on that. Brad Kennedy: Yeah. When you, when you're having that experience of, Historically, I think it's called like health anxiety, right? If I work out, it's going to happen and it's grounded in 10 percent of reality or maybe more, right? But it has happened at some point. You need those corrective experiences. And so our. Schedule is chock full of experiential activities. We have no desire to be spa like treatment. I'm sure Graham's heard me come off on this before. That's not our market. If we're doing acupuncture, trauma informed yoga, it's all with the clinical purpose and intent of doing exactly those things that Graham is talking about. I think Mel pulls it. He had some line like, motion is lotion for your pain or something. It's going to help. Right. So. That's the idea, right? If you can get moving, you can get walking. We have equine therapy. We assembled this broad team to find a way in that [00:33:00] creates a connection and a common factor to help somebody move forward. Uh, the greatest indicator of therapeutic success is the attachment you feel to the team or individuals you're working with. And so we need to find, and it's not all going to work based on one personality type. So we have different people, different modalities that are going to try to find a way to resonate with that person to get the momentum going. Um, Graham Doerge: that's great. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. And, and we talk about that all the time about how, um, you know, cause we're doing so much aftercare planning here because a lot of the clients that are coming to us just have no plan, right? I would say probably 75 percent of them. And so our team in a seven to 10 day period is, you know, digging into the case, figuring out where the leverage is really working with the family to hopefully get them on to some sort of longer term, uh, residential and, um, and you know, we're pretty successful, you know, with that. But, you know, the reality is it's just, it is such a fight. It is such a battle, you know? Brad Kennedy: Yeah. It's Justin Mclendon: few and [00:34:00] far between, you know, we get that individual that comes in. That's, you know, pre motivated, if you will. Right. They're like, I know I got a problem. I want to make changes. I know I need to do treatment and you guys just need to help me figure out where that's going to be. Uh, and those are. And getting Graham Doerge: really granular with those referrals and saying like, I know Brad Kennedy at Driftwood would be a great fit with this client or I know, you know, whatever that is. I think, you know, pairing the clinical team with our, with our people is rather than just kind of throwing a dart at a dartboard and hoping for the best with a program. Right. And having that intimate knowledge of. of, of the people we're referring to and who's on the team and Brad Kennedy: all that. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: and, and to, and I know you guys do some assessment work out there as well, like inpatient assessment program. We do a similar type of program and I just feel, not to again, make this show about that, but I feel like. Making a referral is one thing, but like really taking the time to understand what's going on with the client. What is their story? What are their actual specific and unique [00:35:00] needs? Uh, and helping them understand what that is so that we can drive referrals based on what is going to be the most effective. Uh, you know, facility or, or type of program or treatment modality for that person, you know, as we're talking about pain, right? So if we're identifying that, you know, there's chronic pain and we're seeing those type of, you know, psychosomatic or that, you know, they've crossed that threshold into the place where, you know, the continued engagement in the addiction process is likely. You know, fueled by the anxiety and the fear and things like that, you know, finding a place like, like driftwood, a place that we know is really going to be able to specifically tackle that issue, or if we're seeing that, you know, a lot of these presenting problems that are kind of in front of this person is most likely due to all of this unresolved trauma and these traumatic experiences that they've experienced and just never really come to terms with or been honest with their self about, or they're just completely removed from how that's, you affecting them, trying to find a program that's really going to help them jumpstart that [00:36:00] process. And, uh, you know, so anyways, not to get on a tangent there, but there's a lot of programs in the country and across and in the world. Right. And, uh, I think giving a good referral is taking that time to understand what's going to be the best for that person. And then of course, the work of motivating that person to, to make that decision Brad Kennedy: for themselves. Right. I agree completely with what you guys are saying. My wife runs our assessment program. We do a full onslaught of psychological testing and we have psychiatrists, other docs that meet with them. There is not a program that is right for everyone and so I know there's no You're what you guys do if I think back to myself and what would have been cool for me as a 18 year old You should send me to an outdoor highly Experiential thing because I'm not gonna sit still long enough by group three to really listen be focused plus. I'm pretty avoid right so Only about half the people in our assessment program actually stay with us. It's not a designed, [00:37:00] it's designed to get them to the right experience. Um, and make sure that we have the driftwood experience. Does that fit? How do we assemble the team in the right way? How do you have EMDR for trauma a couple times a week? How do you work on? I rest, which is a evidence based practice form of yoga to really feel it in your body while you're doing this heavy duty lifting of looking at something extremely painful. So I think it's really great and cool that you guys look at it that way. Um, it gives me a Graham Doerge: hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, this has been so awesome. Can reconnecting with you. Do you want to just give our audience a, uh, your website and maybe have any, any social handles if you have them? Brad Kennedy: So I may be the world's worst marketer, so I can give you the website. And Graham Doerge: we'll put it all on the, we'll put it all on the, on the podcast. Everybody can find it there as well, but let's give it to him real Brad Kennedy: quick. Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, just [00:38:00] driftwoodrecovery. com. Um, I'm sure we have social media handles and I'm sure I don't know what they are. So I apologize. Graham Doerge: All good. All good. And we'll put, we'll put all of that online so that everybody can, um, can find driftwood. But, um, you know, always, always a pleasure. I always learn something from you whenever we talk. Um, you guys are really just doing revolutionary work out there and, um, just very supportive of what you guys are doing. Brad Kennedy: We feel the same about you guys and I just really appreciate you guys thinking of us and giving us some time to talk With you today. Thank Graham Doerge: you so much. Of course All right, brad. Have a great day Show Notes An engaging discussion with Brad Kennedy, the COO and partner at Driftwood Recovery, regarding the unique challenges and innovative methods in helping individuals overcome addiction. Brad elucidates upon the philosophy of fostering self-reliance in their recipients and emphasizes the importance of tailoring treatment based on individual needs rather than purely usage duration. The conversation also touches upon Driftwood's efforts to redefine and treat pain in relation to substance abuse, and developing a recovery plan in line with the individual's time, needs, and resources. Lastly, Brad highlights the significance of a supportive environment and empathy in recovery path. ⁠https://driftwoodrecovery.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiArfauBhApEiwAeoB7qOXweJVRcFC11zxuNjMg-J706Jckb3Rv1kAjF4JtTSKX_crYX9SsHhoC5vgQAvD_BwE⁠(https://driftwoodrecovery.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiArfauBhApEiwAeoB7qOXweJVRcFC11zxuNjMg-J706Jckb3Rv1kAjF4JtTSKX_crYX9SsHhoC5vgQAvD_BwE) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey! 00:00 Introduction to the Concept of Being Fully Present 01:15 Introduction of the Hosts and Guest 02:03 Personal Journey into the Field of Recovery 04:10 The Importance of a Strong Clinical Team 05:06 The Philosophy of Driftwood Recovery 05:29 The Concept of Attachment and Sanctuary Model 07:10 The Role of Spirituality in Recovery 09:39 Creating a Supportive and Hopeful Environment 14:52 The Importance of Trust in the Recovery Process 16:20 The Approach to Treatment at Driftwood Recovery 18:46 The Challenge of People Pleasing in Recovery 19:22 The Importance of Co-Creating Solutions in Recovery 20:21 Understanding the Length of Stay in Residential Treatment 20:38 The Importance of Aftercare and Maintaining Momentum 21:05 The Reality of Recovery: It's a Long-Term Commitment 21:20 The Challenges of Staying Present in Recovery 22:00 The Need for Support and Self-Sufficiency in Recovery 22:51 The Role of Therapists in Recovery 23:14 The Importance of Long-Term Recovery Planning 23:39 The Struggles of Discussing Long-Term Recovery with Clients 24:08 The Goal of Self-Care and Independence in Recovery 25:00 The Role of Personal Values in Recovery 25:22 The Problem with Measuring Recovery by Number of Days 25:40 The Importance of Defining Personal Recovery Milestones 27:58 The Reality of Chronic Pain and Addiction 28:40 The Unique Approach to Pain Management at Driftwood 33:36 The Importance of Personalized Treatment and Referrals 37:33 Final Thoughts and Contact Information