In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Laurie Dhue, a Certified Recovery Specialist and one of the nation’s leading recovery advocates. Laurie opens up about her journey from a successful career as a national news anchor to finding her purpose in long-term recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction. < Back to Episodes Breaking the Stigma: Laurie Dhue on Recovery, Advocacy, and Finding Purpose 45:10 min | Laurie Dhue | Finding New Waters In this powerful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Laurie Dhue, a Certified Recovery Specialist and one of the nation’s leading recovery advocates. Laurie opens up about her journey from a successful career as a national news anchor to finding her purpose in long-term recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction. She shares her candid insights on the importance of family support, the role of spirituality in recovery, and the fight to reduce stigma around addiction. Laurie also discusses her work with recovery platforms, her experience speaking at the White House, and her upcoming podcast, *One Day at a Time*. Subscribe “We can’t do it alone, and we don’t have to. There’s a whole community out there ready to help.” – -Laurie Dhue Show Notes In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Laurie Dhue, a Certified Recovery Specialist and one of the nation’s leading recovery advocates. Laurie opens up about her journey from a successful career as a national news anchor to finding her purpose in long-term recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction. She shares her candid insights on the importance of family support, the role of spirituality in recovery, and the fight to reduce stigma around addiction. Laurie also discusses her work with recovery platforms, her experience speaking at the White House, and her upcoming podcast, One Day at a Time. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction: Welcome and episode overview. • [01:00] Meet Laurie Dhue: Laurie shares her journey from national news anchor to recovery advocate. • [04:30] The Moment of Grace: Laurie reflects on her personal turning point in choosing sobriety. • [09:00] Recovery is a Family Effort: How family support can influence and sustain recovery. • [12:30] Overcoming Stigma and Shame: Laurie explains the importance of removing barriers to seeking help. • [18:00] Education and Advocacy: Laurie discusses her work with recovery platforms and speaking engagements. • [24:00] The Fentanyl Crisis: Raising awareness about the dangers of synthetic opioids and advocating for education and Narcan availability. • [30:00] Medication-Assisted Treatment: Laurie and the team discuss the evolving role of MAT in recovery. • [36:00] Closing Thoughts: Laurie shares resources and ways to connect with her work. Key Points Discussed: 1. Grace in Sobriety: Laurie’s moment of clarity that inspired her commitment to recovery and how she has stayed sober for over 17 years. 2. Advocating for Change: How Laurie uses her platform to raise awareness about addiction, reduce stigma, and provide education for families and communities. 3. Family’s Role in Recovery: Why family involvement, patience, and education are critical in supporting a loved one’s recovery. 4. Fighting the Opioid Epidemic: Laurie’s passion for addressing the ongoing fentanyl crisis and educating communities about harm reduction. 5. Breaking Stereotypes: Laurie’s experience as a public figure in recovery and her mission to show the world what recovery looks like. Guest Bio: Laurie Dhue Certified Recovery Specialist and Recovery Advocate Laurie Dhue is a Certified Recovery Specialist providing resources and support for individuals and families navigating the challenges of addiction. With over 25 years as an award-winning national news anchor for CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News Channel, Laurie shifted her focus to the recovery field after finding long-term sobriety. She is a sought-after speaker, recovery advocate, and the host of the upcoming podcast, One Day at a Time. Laurie has spoken at the White House and numerous national events to reduce stigma and raise awareness about the realities of addiction and recovery. Resources Mentioned: • Recovery Education: https://recoveryeducation.com • Real Education: https://real.education.us • Laurie’s Podcast: One Day at a Time (Launching October 2024) Follow Laurie Dhue: • Instagram: @LaurieDhue • Facebook: Laurie Dhue • LinkedIn: Laurie Dhue Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share • Google Podcast:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. SEO Hashtags: #RecoveryAdvocate #AddictionAwareness #LaurieDhue #FindingNewWatersPodcast #FentanylCrisis #OvercomingStigma #LongTermSobriety #RecoveryEducation Powerful Quote: “We can’t do it alone, and we don’t have to. There’s a whole community out there ready to help.” – Laurie Dhue

Graham Doerge, a licensed professional counselor, author, and speaker, hosts "Finding New Waters" podcast to explore addiction complexities. His compassionate approach provides a safe space for personal stories, expert interviews, and resources to inspire hope. Finding New Waters About Us Finding New Waters is a podcast dedicated to exploring the complexities of addiction, recovery and the journey to a healthier lifestyle. Through interviews with experts, personal stories, and resources, we aim to provide an understanding of the challenges faced by those struggling with addiction and inspire hope for those in recovery. Our podcast is a safe space for people to gain a greater understanding of addiction and its effects on individuals, families, and the community. The Hosts The Hosts of Finding New Waters B. Reeves Director of Business Development Thomas Hogshead Director of Admissions Dr. Harold Hong Medical Director Justin Mclendon CEO

"Finding New Waters" is a podcast exploring addiction complexities. Personal stories and expert interviews offer understanding of challenges and hope for recovery. It's a safe space to comprehend addiction's impact on individuals, families, and the community.

In this episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Brook McKenzie, CEO of Burning Tree Programs. Brook shares how Burning Tree Ranch is helping individuals and families navigate late-stage addiction through a true long-term recovery model. < Back to Episodes Long-Term Recovery for Chronic Relapsers: Inside Burning Tree Ranch 37:32 min | Brook McKenzie | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Brook McKenzie, CEO of Burning Tree Programs. Brook shares how Burning Tree Ranch is helping individuals and families navigate late-stage addiction through a true long-term recovery model. Focused on healing both behaviors and belief systems—not just removing substances—Burning Tree specializes in working with chronic relapsers who have struggled to find lasting change elsewhere. Brook discusses why time, structure, family involvement, and surrender are the keys to sustainable recovery. Subscribe “Recovery is about much more than just stopping substances. It’s about surrendering old patterns and building a whole new way of living.” – Brook McKenzie Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Brooke McKenzie, CEO of Burning Tree Ranch, a nationally renowned long-term recovery program for chronic relapsers. Brooke shares how Burning Tree works with clients and families facing late-stage addiction, offering a deeply structured, accountability-driven model that creates lasting transformation. He explains why time is the most important tool in true recovery, how Burning Tree supports family healing, and why addressing behaviors—not just stopping substances—is the real key to sobriety. If you or a loved one have struggled with multiple failed treatment attempts, this episode offers hope, clarity, and a pathway to lasting change. ⸻ Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Brooke McKenzie and Burning Tree Ranch • [02:00] Why Long-Term Treatment Works – The importance of time, structure, and community • [06:00] Chronic Relapsers and Family Involvement – Why joint leverage matters • [10:00] Healing the Brain, Body, and Spirit – Neurological and spiritual recovery over two years • [14:00] True Transformation – Measuring success beyond external achievements • [18:00] Resistance vs. Willingness – A real litmus test for recovery progress • [24:00] Family Healing and Boundaries – Engaging loved ones for true change • [30:00] The Power of Surrender – Letting go of old patterns and starting true recovery • [34:00] How to Connect – Finding support at Burning Tree Ranch ⸻ Key Points Discussed: 1. The Real Reason for Long-Term Treatment – Healing takes time—physically, mentally, and spiritually. 2. How Families Play a Key Role – Joint leverage, support, and accountability are essential. 3. The Hidden Damage of Chronic Relapsing – Beyond substances, it’s about behaviors and belief systems. 4. Measuring Progress – Moving from resistance to willingness is the real indicator of healing. 5. Accountability as Compassion – True love means holding people responsible for change. ⸻ Guest Bio: Brooke McKenzie CEO of Burning Tree Ranch Brooke McKenzie leads Burning Tree Ranch, one of the most respected long-term residential treatment centers in the United States, specializing in chronic relapsers. With years of experience in addiction treatment, Brooke brings a deep understanding of the complex needs of late-stage addicts and their families. Under his leadership, Burning Tree has continued to transform lives by emphasizing time, accountability, family involvement, and spiritual growth as cornerstones of real, sustainable recovery. 🌐 Learn More: https://www.burningtreeranch.com(https://www.burningtreeranch.com/) ⸻ Resources Mentioned: • Burning Tree Ranch Website: https://www.burningtreeranch.com(https://www.burningtreeranch.com/) • Find a 12-Step Meeting: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) ⸻ Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ⸻ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #BurningTreeRanch #ChronicRelapseRecovery #LongTermTreatment #AccountabilityInRecovery #FindingNewWatersPodcast #AddictionRecovery #FamilyHealing

In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes Yoga, Intuition, and the Sacred Work of Tuning In with Andrea Boyd 52:12 min | Andrea Boyd | Finding New Waters In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. Drawing from her decades of teaching and personal experience, Andrea shares insight into self-governance, plant-based living, spiritual sovereignty, and the power of stillness in a noisy world. Whether you’re curious about yoga or on your own journey of recovery and transformation, this episode offers grounding truths and a deep sense of possibility. Subscribe “Self-anarchy is being able to govern your own body and mind with your innate wisdom—on a cellular level, from eons ago.” – Andrea Boyd Show Notes In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. Drawing from her decades of teaching and personal experience, Andrea shares insight into self-governance, plant-based living, spiritual sovereignty, and the power of stillness in a noisy world. Whether you’re curious about yoga or on your own journey of recovery and transformation, this episode offers grounding truths and a deep sense of possibility. 🕒 Timestamps • [00:00] Welcome & Intro • [01:30] What is Self-Anarchy? • [05:00] Reclaiming Inner Wisdom & the Power of No • [08:00] Why “New Waters” is a Sacred Metaphor • [11:00] The Purpose of Shavasana & Constant Rebirth • [15:00] Connecting Breath, Spirit, and the Body • [18:00] Andrea’s Journey into Yoga • [24:00] Meditation as Self-Validation & Stillness • [32:00] Food, Energy, and Going Plant-Based • [40:00] Why What We Say to Ourselves Matters • [45:00] Self-Governance and Tuning Your Own Instrument • [49:00] Letting Go of Conditioning and Choosing a New Path 🌱 Key Topics 1. Self-Anarchy: Trusting your internal compass and governing yourself from within. 2. Yoga as Rebirth: Every class, every breath offers the potential for renewal. 3. Healing Through Breath: The diaphragm, lungs, and body are tools for self-liberation. 4. Plant-Based Living: Her shift toward veganism as a transformative spiritual decision. 5. Meditation as Witnessing: Not silencing the mind, but observing it with compassion. 6. Sacred Practice of Stillness: Why 3 minutes of stillness can change your day. 💬 Powerful Quote “Self-anarchy is being able to govern your own body and mind with your innate wisdom—on a cellular level, from eons ago.” – Andrea Boyd 👤 Guest Bio Andrea Boyd is a globally respected yoga teacher, birth doula, author, speaker, and advocate for human and animal rights. Based in Charleston, SC, Andrea has been teaching yoga for over 22 years, leading transformative classes and workshops grounded in ancient philosophy and lived experience. She is the author of The Depth of Birth, hosts retreats and birth education programs, and continues to explore the intersection of personal sovereignty, conscious parenting, and embodied healing. Visit her website to learn more: www.andreaboydyoga.com(http://www.andreaboydyoga.com/) Instagram: @andreaboydyoga(https://www.instagram.com/andreaboydyoga) 📚 Resources Mentioned • Andrea’s Website: https://www.andreaboydyoga.com(https://www.andreaboydyoga.com/) • Book: The Depth of Birth by Andrea Boyd • Documentary: Earthlings (narrated by Joaquin Phoenix)(https://www.nationearth.com/earthlings-1) • Circle of Security Parenting(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) • Yoga Sutras of Patanjali • The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle • Emoto Water Experiment 📲 Follow Us • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) 🎧 Watch & Listen • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #AndreaBoyd #FindingNewWatersPodcast #SelfAnarchy #YogaForHealing #MeditationJourney #SpiritualSovereignty #VeganLiving #EmotionalAwareness #StillnessPractice #YogaPhilosophy

< Back Renewable Energy Program This is placeholder text. To change this content, double-click on the element and click Change Content. This is placeholder text. To change this content, double-click on the element and click Change Content. Want to view and manage all your collections? Click on the Content Manager button in the Add panel on the left. Here, you can make changes to your content, add new fields, create dynamic pages and more. You can create as many collections as you need. Your collection is already set up for you with fields and content. Add your own, or import content from a CSV file. Add fields for any type of content you want to display, such as rich text, images, videos and more. You can also collect and store information from your site visitors using input elements like custom forms and fields. Be sure to click Sync after making changes in a collection, so visitors can see your newest content on your live site. Preview your site to check that all your elements are displaying content from the right collection fields. Power in Numbers 30 Programs 50 Locations 200 Volunteers Project Gallery Previous Next

In this episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Brook McKenzie, CEO of Burning Tree Programs. Brook shares how Burning Tree Ranch is helping individuals and families navigate late-stage addiction through a true long-term recovery model. < Back to Episodes Meeting People Where They Are: Lindsey Humphreys on Recovery Access & Innovation 30:36 min | Lindsey Humphreys | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Lindsey Humphreys, founder of Illuminate North Carolina and Bob’s Way Recovery Center. Lindsey shares her journey from public service to recovery advocacy and talks about the powerful legacy of her grandfather, Bob Goodell—a pioneer in the local recovery community. She breaks down the work Illuminate NC is doing across harm reduction, sober companionship, and rural outreach through Bob’s Way, a new peer-run center providing low-barrier support in underserved Vance County. Subscribe "We don’t need people to be perfect. We need them to stay alive long enough to get better." – Lindsey Humphreys Show Notes In this inspiring episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Lindsey Humphreys, founder of Illuminate North Carolina and Bob’s Way Recovery Center. Lindsey shares her journey from public service to recovery advocacy and talks about the powerful legacy of her grandfather, Bob Goodell—a pioneer in the local recovery community. She breaks down the work Illuminate NC is doing across harm reduction, sober companionship, and rural outreach through Bob’s Way, a new peer-run center providing low-barrier support in underserved Vance County. From distributing life-saving naloxone throughout Wake County to eliminating childcare and scheduling barriers in IOP programs, Lindsey is shifting how recovery is accessed and experienced. If you're passionate about inclusive recovery, harm reduction, or family-led change—this one's for you. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Lindsey and learn about her grandfather Bob’s legacy • [03:00] What Is Bob’s Way? – A peer-run center offering free recovery resources • [07:00] The Importance of Henderson County – Why rural access to recovery matters • [10:00] What is a Sober Companion? – Bridging high-stress transitions with live-in support • [14:00] Recovery Beyond the Individual – Serving families, single parents, and professionals • [18:00] Harm Reduction in Action – Naloxone distribution boxes across Wake County • [22:00] Childcare, Night IOPs, and Flexibility – Removing the real-life barriers to healing • [26:00] Building a Culture of Access – From Scranton roots to North Carolina reform • [30:00] How to Connect – Contact info, websites, and more • Key Points Discussed: 1. Low-Barrier Recovery Access – Creating programs that adapt to real life—not the other way around 2. Harm Reduction with Heart – Naloxone boxes placed across Wake County save lives, no questions asked 3. Support for the Whole Family – Onsite childcare, night IOPs, and family-focused recovery 4. The Role of Sober Companions – Walking beside people during their most vulnerable transitions 5. Legacy and Leadership – How Bob Goodell’s recovery values continue to shape the future Guest Bio: Lindsey Humphreys Founder of Illuminate NC & Bob’s Way Recovery Center Lindsey Humphreys is the Executive Director of Illuminate North Carolina, a nonprofit that offers harm reduction services, sober companionship, and rural recovery programming. She also founded Bob’s Way, a peer-led recovery hub in Vance County named after her grandfather, Bob Goodell—a revered figure in the North Carolina recovery community. With a background in HR and government health services, Lindsey now leads innovative programming focused on accessibility, dignity, and meeting people where they are. 📞 Call: (919) 522-5990 (Bob’s Way main line) 🌐 www.illuminatenorthcarolina.or(https://www.illuminatenorthcarolina.org/)g 🌐 www.bobsway.o(https://www.bobsway.org/)rg Resources Mentioned: • Illuminate North Carolina: https://www.illuminatenorthcarolina.org(https://www.illuminatenorthcarolina.org/) • Bob’s Way Recovery Center: https://www.bobsway.org(https://www.bobsway.org/) • 12-Step Meeting Finder: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) • Circle of Security Parenting: https://circleofsecurityinternational.com(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #LindseyHumphreys #BobsWay #IlluminateNC #HarmReduction #SoberCompanions #FamilyRecoverySupport #FindingNewWatersPodcast #RuralRecoveryAccess

Join us as we delve into the transformative world of psychedelics. In this captivating podcast, therapist Lesley Kellogg shares her profound insights on the power of psychedelic-assisted therapy. Discover how these substances open new pathways in the brain, facilitate healing experiences, and offer unique opportunities for personal growth. Learn about integration, therapeutic support, and the importance of individualized approaches. < Back to Episodes Exploring the Psychedelic Realm: A Deep Dive into Therapeutic Applications with Lesley Kellogg 41:28 min | Natasha Silver Bell | Finding New Waters Join us as we delve into the transformative world of psychedelics. In this captivating podcast, therapist Lesley Kellogg shares her profound insights on the power of psychedelic-assisted therapy. Discover how these substances open new pathways in the brain, facilitate healing experiences, and offer unique opportunities for personal growth. Learn about integration, therapeutic support, and the importance of individualized approaches. Subscribe "Psychedelics can be a powerful tool for working through trauma and allowing for profound healing and personal growth." - Lesley Kellogg Podcast Transcript #016 Leslie Kellog Lesley Kellogg: [00:00:00] So psychedelic assisted psychotherapy would be having a substance in during a therapy session. So it could be M D M A, it could be psilocybin. But having that substance during the session and then seeing what unfolds during it, it includes a lot of specialized training because everything is intensified. Lesley Kellogg: So if you have a trauma focused session, you're un unearthing a lot of very intense memories that you could be having flashbacks sitting there with a client. During those things. You add a substance that's psychoactive on top of it, it's going to intensify the situation. So knowing how to respond when those moments come up.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light on what is often the darkest hour for many families. I am joined today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Leslie Kellogg, who is the founder of Prism Wellness in Carey, North Carolina. Graham Doerge: Leslie opened Prism Wellness in 2020 with the goal of creating a group practice that provides a space for people to better understand the strengths they already embody that can help support them in the more challenging parts of life. Leslie's also an advocate for the continued research into psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and has completed the M D M A assisted [00:02:00] psychotherapy training conducted by the multiple multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic studies. Graham Doerge: Leslie's excited at the possibility of incorporating M D M A assisted psychotherapy into a practice upon hopeful f D a approval. Leslie, thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of course. And we're super excited because obviously this is a kind of a hot button topic right now, right? Graham Doerge: And you're hearing a lot about this, just everywhere in the world right now, obviously MAPS is leading the charge with, all the. A lot of the research so to say. But I would love to get a little bit of an explanation from you on exactly what is psychedelic assisted therapy. Lesley Kellogg: Sure. Yeah. And so grateful for maps. I'm not affiliated with maps but so grateful for them and Rick Doblin and all the work that they've done. So psychedelic assisted psychotherapy would be having a substance. In during a therapy session. So it could be M D M A, it could be psilocybin. But having that substance during [00:03:00] the session and then seeing what unfolds during it, it includes a lot of specialized training because everything is intensified. Lesley Kellogg: So if you have a trauma focused session, You're un unearthing a lot of very intense memories that you could be having flashbacks sitting there with a client during those things. You add a substance that's psychoactive on top of it, it's going to intensify the situation. So knowing how to respond when those moments come up. Graham Doerge: Love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I know just, obviously I've had, psychedelic experiences in my life. Just understanding the kind of, one of the, one of the core pieces is the set and setting. And and obviously just being prepared in the right way and having the right intentions going into a practice like this are so important. Graham Doerge: But can you talk about a little bit about like the preparation? Sure. That goes into all this. Lesley Kellogg: Sure. So set and setting is so important when it comes to psychedelic use period, let alone if it's psychedelic assisted therapy. But when we think of set, we [00:04:00] think of your mindset. What are you coming into this experience with? Lesley Kellogg: What is your expectation? What is going to happen if your expectation is it met? How do you plan on handling that? Yeah. So set can be worked on prior to, and should be worked on prior to the experience. That could be done by yourself through journaling, but it would be lovely to be doing it with a professional or somebody that just has experience with psychedelics as well. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Like you said, when you have an experience with psychedelics, it makes you shift your expectations a little bit and learn some of that flexibility. So sitting down with somebody who has had experiences is. Really valuable. Yeah. Because that's gonna affect the way that you experience what happens. Lesley Kellogg: A lot of people go into an experience and they think they know what they're gonna work on. Yeah. They've worked on their intentions And then something else comes up. And knowing what to do in those situations is really important. Knowing what support you have in those situations is really important. Lesley Kellogg: Then we have setting, which is your physical space. So are you in a space that's [00:05:00] comfortable? Are you in a space that's clean? If you have to go to the restroom, how far is it? Do you have to go down a scary hallway? Yep. Yep. Is there music playing? Yeah. Yeah. What type of music. Yep. Lesley Kellogg: Do you have comfortable pillows, some somewhere to lay down, or are you supposed to be sitting up? Are you outside? All these things could be great, outside, could be great, or it could be really challenging depending on what else is going on. So making sure you're able to work through that ahead of time and, things happen and being able to be flexible, but a lot of what people refer to as bad trips can be avoided through working through set and setting ahead of time. Lesley Kellogg: And having somebody trusted that you can utilize. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So as we're getting this, I just realized I've had so many wonderful. Catch up times with you over the last year of getting to know you in the therapy community. Yeah. But I've actually never heard your story about what got you interested in psychedelics. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And I think that'd be like, just real interesting to Lesley Kellogg: hear. Sure. Yeah. Let me think [00:06:00] about that. Re rewind the tapes. I think when it comes to psychedelics, my first experience in the therapeutic world was I got an invitation in the mail when I was provisionally licensed for. Ketamine treatment center that was opening up. Lesley Kellogg: And this was probably seven years ago or so. And I went and was so excited and I remember leaving because, oh, I stayed to the end Uhhuh. I didn't leave in the middle of it, but it was all catered toward providers, med providers. And there was no talk about. Therapy. Huh. And so I left feeling really dissatisfied with that. Lesley Kellogg: And then I looked a little bit deeper on my own time and stumbled upon maps and had some friends that did more of like the festival thing. It wasn't my, it wasn't my jam, but I would've loved to have go, gone to a festival just to provide care. Because I knew that people would be using substances and being a therapist. That's, I love that. I love to be there for people who just need a need. Somebody that they can rela, rely on for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:00] So did my own work Found through maps I found a few different organizations that I could learn from, and then I The world just opened up and I started my own psychedelic work. Lesley Kellogg: And it helped me grow tremendously as a practitioner. It helped my friendships, my marriage, my relationships with family members. And I remember thinking about clients throughout my experiences. How it could be really helpful for people who just get stuck. Our brain has a lot of powerful ways to protect us, and when we go through traumas, Our brain protects us in a way. Lesley Kellogg: To try to help us not go back to that trauma. But what happens is the trauma comes back. The trauma comes back. It affects our relationships. Yeah. So I learned in my work how I. For some reason, when I was on when I was experiencing those psychedelics, I was able to look at things very differently than I was when I wasn't in that non-ordinary state. Lesley Kellogg: So that propelled me and through maps, being able to go through that training [00:08:00] Yeah. Which was a hundred hours. Wow. And extremely intense. Everybody that I've ever talked to that's done it Uhhuh agrees that it's the most intense thing that you could do as a therapist, because that's awesome. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. It's, you spend hours just talking about transference and countertransference. You spend hours talking about ruptures in the therapeutic setting and how to repair those touch how that can be used therapeutically. Yeah. So many things that could be helpful in the therapeutic setting, but then when you intensify it, you've realize how much power it has. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. So after pursuing that training, I just it. It lit a fire under me to keep learning because it's a whole new environment that is being created. It's a whole new protocol that's being created. Yeah. A whole new ethics board that's being created. So there's no shortage of resources for me to dive into. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: So it was super interesting. It's out there, but it's not, Used in maybe its fullest extent and there's, it's a exciting red hot area of science. Yeah, Lesley Kellogg: [00:09:00] definitely. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And many people joining the podcast probably don't know about maps or are very skeptical Yeah. As they're entering into this conversation. Dr. Harold Hong: So can you tell us a little bit about MAPS and the work that they're doing? Sure. Yeah. Lesley Kellogg: So MAPS was founded in 1986 by Rick Doblin, and his goal was to figure out how to bring the government in because we know that these well. I say we, they, I wasn't born. They knew that these substances weren't bad. Lesley Kellogg: These substances did have therapeutic value. These substances were not like the propaganda made us believe that is it gonna melt your brain and it's gonna make everybody jump off of the roof, right? Yep. Reefer badness. Graham Doerge: Exactly. Lesley Kellogg: Exactly. Yeah. There was so much that was just circulated to, to make people afraid of L S D or M D M A cannabis psilocybin and all of them. Lesley Kellogg: And so he founded it to try to bring a awareness and b, look at the therapeutic value that had already been proven through the underground [00:10:00] work and work that had been done before it was rescheduled. Yeah. 1986. Fast forward. Now Maps has done schedule. It's not rescheduled. There's no rescheduling, but MAPS has done up to phase three studies of M D M A and they're showing insane benefits, right? Lesley Kellogg: So 67% of the participants after the phase two study. No longer met that criteria for ptsd. Wow. And that was two months after the study ended. And then there's follow up studies as well. But when you look at the millions of people that have PTs D in the United States and the world and then you look at a statistic like 67% of people no longer meet criteria. That's wild, right? Yeah. That's so powerful, Graham Doerge: right? Look at all the vets and soldiers that we have coming back Yes. Who are just, these guys unfortunately are killing themselves at, just an incredible rate. Graham Doerge: And it's just, it's. It's hard to see, these studies and look at this research and be like, gosh, why aren't we doing more about this? [00:11:00] Or why isn't this more available to more people? And I think we're getting there. We're close. And hopefully as you we said in the bio I think probably by next year, M D M A will be FDA Lesley Kellogg: approved, correct? Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Fda, so FDA gave M dma the fast track to approval. Breakthrough status. Yep. It's not really fast and it shouldn't be fast, to be honest, because it is important to, to learn all these new protocols that need to be put into place. Because like you said, vets are going outside of the country for care. Lesley Kellogg: Even when. This country is potentially why they have developed ptsd. We aren't able to provide the care that we need and we are losing so many vets. So hopefully with the FDA coming along and hopefully approving M D M A, we'll be able to provide care maybe end of this year or next year. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. But then each state is gonna have their own say in that as well, right? Yeah. And it potentially could be FDA approved and not rescheduled. So then we'll have to look at that [00:12:00] with, it could be FDA approved and you could prescribe it. But the feds can come in at any moment and. Yeah. Shut you down because you're using an illegal substance. Lesley Kellogg: Got Dr. Harold Hong: it. Because the dea, drug Enforcement Agency, they set the schedule, correct? And FDA approves it for clinical use. Yeah. So FDA approved oxycodone for clinical use. And the DEA made it schedule two. Yep. Exactly. And so the DA might actually make it schedule one, meaning there's no clinical benefit and they might. Dr. Harold Hong: Put a lot of lockdown on that. So it could be challenging. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. So schedule one. Yeah. No clinical benefit, no therapeutic value, but that's where most of them lie. Ketamine doesn't lie there. But yes, M Dmma, psilocybin Schedule one. Dmt. Dmt, exactly. Yeah. Which you have research that shows Yeah. Lesley Kellogg: The complete opposite, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But, yeah. So if someone comes along and say, you're just. You're just hooking people up on drugs. Yeah. Like you're just making [00:13:00] more addicts. Yeah. Like I think there's a lot of people who think that, and, they're going along with. Dr. Harold Hong: All of the negative connotations of psychedelics. And so if someone brings that up to you and says, how can you be involved with this? Sure. How do you, how do Lesley Kellogg: you talk about that? I would talk about it for a long time. I would've a lot to say, start bringing Graham Doerge: out lots of statistics. Graham Doerge: Yeah, exactly. Lots Lesley Kellogg: of research studies we'll be on. Hold on. Little whiteboard. Yeah. So M D M A can have addictive properties. Huh. But psilocybin does not DMT does not the way that it's prescribed too will affect that. And when you're doing. Psychotherapy with it. It's very different than using a substance and going to a club. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. The intensity of the work that comes and unfolds because of what it does in your brain to allow you to affect, to tap into some of those traumatic moments it's not as likely to produce a, an addictive effect because of what we said about set and setting. Yeah. You're not going into this. I can't wait to. Lesley Kellogg: [00:14:00] Dance all night, right? You're going into this with what can I learn from this really traumatic event, right? And how can I apply that to change my life, right? It's very different. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And I think that, talking about the trauma and all that is that, what we're seeing is obviously trauma gets stored in the body. Graham Doerge: And it's making us sicker and sicker. And we're so good at just pushing that down and, I'm gonna charge forward and I'm never gonna really look at this and, give it the time that it needs. And it's such an amazing tool to just. It takes down all those barriers, right? Graham Doerge: And it makes you look at all of those things face to face. Yeah. For the for probably, a lot of us, I think are probably not even really able to look at those things, or so it's it's an incredible tool to, work on the traumatic Lesley Kellogg: piece. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. M D M A will reduce the activity in your amygdala. Yeah. So when we have trauma, the amygdala is there to help us, right? The amygdala is there to help us. Stay safe. Yeah. But then we have M D M A that reduces that and then you're allowed to look at things a little bit differently. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. You're able to [00:15:00] look at them and stay your feet here, you know where you are. Versus look at them and all of a sudden you're zapped back to whatever that experience was for you. So it's very powerful and you're able to look at it with some empathy for yourself. Because m DM A is an empathogen, it helps connect you to yourself and other people. So having that, you're able to look at it without or with some distance from maybe some of that shame or some of that hate that you had for yourself for even having that experience. So it's, there's so many tears to M D M A and why it's effective for trauma. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I talk about this in some ways. Similarly when it comes to Suboxone treatment. Like medication-assisted treatment for opiate use disorder. So a, like a really common refrain for people doing opiate use disorder that are coming to new waters is, I, yes. I use like massive amounts of fentanyl and I'm just done with opiates. Dr. Harold Hong: I'm just done. I don't want to be on Suboxone. I don't want any m a t I just want to be sober. And [00:16:00] the thinking is Suboxone just trading one. And one drug for another. It gets I'm not actually making progress in my recovery when I do that and this that talk makes a lot of sense, like when you just hear it as it is. Dr. Harold Hong: But then you look at what happens to people who go cold Turkey without good support and over 90% will probably relapse within the first year. And. So then I talked about it depends on how you're using Suboxone, right? Because some people, they are misusing it recreationally or just self dosing without like proper medical supervision and without proper support. Dr. Harold Hong: And yeah, like it does look like drug abuse for that perspective, especially if they mix it with alcohol or a benzo. But I tell them, Hey, you can use Suboxone to disconnect from reality the same way you would use fentanyl to disconnect from reality. Or you can use Suboxone to get rid of your withdrawal symptoms. Dr. Harold Hong: Get rid of your cravings, and get your feet on the [00:17:00] ground, go to your appointments, cook dinner for your kids, go to work. So one way, using Suboxone, you're actually more plugged into reality. Another way you're disconnecting from reality. And that's the real difference between using it for addiction or using it for your recovery. Dr. Harold Hong: Like what's bringing you closer to reality, so I think there's some parallels there. Oh, definitely. With how you can use psychedelics to escape reality, or you could use it to actually experience it more intensely. I. And or and more realistically and get your recovery on Lesley Kellogg: track. Oh, definitely. Lesley Kellogg: And I would even ask that person whose voice is that? Yeah. Who's saying it's you're trading one for another? Is that your voice? Is that somebody else's? Is that society Right? And does that really fit what your intention is going into this? Because a lot of times it's not, it's the fear that you're trading one for another. Lesley Kellogg: But if you're able to cook dinner and be there for your [00:18:00] kids and go to work then is that really a one for one trade? Dr. Harold Hong: It's not totally different. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I think it's the therapeutic component, right? Yes. And that for sure is where it all boils down to, in my opinion, is that, if we're, just. Graham Doerge: Dosing these clients and they're not, there's no therapeutic component to M A t, which is medicated assisted therapy. Then you know you're missing the target. And I think the same thing with the psychedelics. Yeah. You've gotta have a facilitator in that experience. Graham Doerge: You've gotta have somebody walking you through that process and yeah it's essential. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Thanks for bringing it back because I should have mentioned that when we talked about maps Yeah. Because they're approving it as the whole therapy. So it's the medication assisted psychotherapy. Lesley Kellogg: Which is very different than if we would talk about another medication like ketamine or s bravado where it was approved as a medication. And while cap Ketamine assisted psychotherapy is gonna improve the effectiveness, it. Is not how it's necessarily always marketed. So with M dm, a, it's the whole package. Lesley Kellogg: It's [00:19:00] working together in preparatory stages, having your dosing, then having your integration. And maybe we should get into integration because that's yeah. Better integration Graham Doerge: sounds how important that Lesley Kellogg: is. Yeah. Yeah. So integration is taking, what insights were gained during your experience and implementing them into your life. Lesley Kellogg: You have a profound experience. You have all this insight. You wanna call your mom and tell her you love her. You have some forgiveness for yourself, but then you leave and then you go about life the same way that you did before the experience. And that's very hard. But you also have psychedelics also open up the neuroplasticity which you may be able to speak on more than I do. Lesley Kellogg: Which means that you can really open up more neural pathways and change the way that your brain sees its patterns. Yes. Change the way that you interact. Change the way that you interact with yourself, right? So when we have the therapeutic component involved, you're able to really touch base on the. Lesley Kellogg: [00:20:00] Implementation of, I didn't just go do this experience and I felt really good and that was great. I did this experience, learned these things, and now my life is changing and I'm changing my life in these ways. And people around you will see it. A lot of times people would leave and this is anecdotal. Lesley Kellogg: I did not experience this. But we were told that clients would leave and then people in their life would say what's changed? Something's really different about you. You're coming to these dinners, or you're answering your phone, right? Or you're able to go here. What did you do? Yeah. And just, or Graham Doerge: the light is back in your eye. Graham Doerge: Exactly. Yeah. You look younger or, it's, yeah, exactly. It takes that kind of stress, I feel like. Yeah. Way in a lot Lesley Kellogg: of ways. Yeah. People like, you hold your head up a little bit higher. Yeah. You're not afraid of things as many times. So the integration part is something that. Lesley Kellogg: One of my fears for when everything hopefully does get approved that people will slack off on. Because a lot of times it's the substance that gets people into the door, but it's the work before and after that's really gonna improve the longevity [00:21:00] of what that experience was. So the integration piece is as important, if not more important than the medicine session itself. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess is there Is there a particular, timeframe that people are looking, is it doing this every six months or once a year, or is there any sort of protocol around that, or no, Lesley Kellogg: there may be has. Lesley Kellogg: I'm sure they'll develop one. So the M D M A protocol was you had three 90 minute prep sessions, and then one eight hour M D M A session. Okay. And then the follow up. Prep integration sessions, and then the next medicine session was three to five weeks later. Got it. And it was a three protocol, so three dosing sessions. Lesley Kellogg: Got it. But once it's approved, not everybody has to do three. Some people may wanna do five. So it's gonna be this. Every document that's being published now for psychedelics is like a living, breathing document. Because it depends on the substance, it depends on the person, it depends on what their [00:22:00] goals are. Lesley Kellogg: I don't I think it'll always be a very flexible individualized protocol. Yeah, Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So it's bravado, right? It's out there. It's a medication. It's most frequently used simply as a medication, right? So most of clinics I'm seeing you go in, You sit in chair, you get your dose, and you're observed for one to two hours. Dr. Harold Hong: And that's the end of that day. And then you come back, you do it several times a week for several weeks. How is it, how is that? Compared to Ketamine assisted psychotherapy? Lesley Kellogg: Yeah, that's a good question. So with Cap, you would have way more intense preparation. So what music do you wanna listen to during your session? Lesley Kellogg: It's always advised that it's, no words more just melodic. It could be very soothing or it could be intense depending on the intensity of the things that you wanna work through. Yeah. Are you gonna bring an eyeshade. If one isn't provided for you. Sometimes having little hard [00:23:00] candies if you get a nasty taste in your mouth, to just utilize if necessary. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Cuz a lot of people are it tastes very unpleasant. Lesley Kellogg: Yes, it does. Uhhuh and some places do a good job of prepping their clients for that, and some places don't acknowledge it. So just. Going through that, right? Doing all the prep. What's your intention? Lesley Kellogg: What are we gonna do if you start to feel really unsettled during your session? Maybe going through some breath work. Going through therapeutic touch. If you need somebody's hand to hold, this is where I'll hold your hand when you're ready to let go. This is what we're gonna do. Yep. Lesley Kellogg: If you need to go to the restroom, this is where I'll touch your back. This is where I'll touch your hand if you need it. Going through tons and tons of consent. Yeah. Then we have the actual medicine session. And it's a very nondirective approach. So the therapist is not in the room talking to you the whole time. Lesley Kellogg: It's very inner directed. We talk about it inner healing intelligence. So you, your body naturally wants to heal you. Your brain naturally wants to heal you. The therapist isn't there. [00:24:00] Using IFS or EMDR or cbt, like you're just there as a supportive person. Yep. That's there to coach. Just your overall wellness if necessary. Lesley Kellogg: Gotcha. But then if you say something really intriguing, the therapist might write it down. Got it. So the therapist can be taking notes. So if you say something powerful, we can use that later in the integration stages. With, you brought this up. Do you remember what was going on? Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. How are you gonna apply that? To your life now? So then after the closure of the medicine session, then meeting for your integration sessions afterward. And what came up for you? What's different, if anything? Yeah. If it's not different, how are we gonna work on that? Lesley Kellogg: Especially having people going in with suicidal ideation and wanting to work through that. If you still have it at the end and you don't have somebody to talk to about that is so shattering. So having a professional that you can talk to, having support already laid out. So you're more likely to feel, your, [00:25:00] feel what you can do next, versus just feeling hopeless because this was the thing that was supposed to help me. Lesley Kellogg: Wow. I went out of my brain to do this. Yeah. And I still feel I. Crap. So having a therapeutic support for that. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: So would that be all those integration sessions after one medication session? Lesley Kellogg: Or like several? It depends. Okay. It's I, ideally, yes. So you would have your prep session and then your medicine session, and then your integration session or more. Lesley Kellogg: Some people then wanna go back, Pretty quickly and do a next session. Some people don't uhhuh. It really just depends. But having an integration session or at least some sort of protocol to do after your medicine sessions would would always be advised. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And have you worked with clients that have experienced both, like conventional medicine only versus academy assisted psychotherapy? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And what kinds of stories are they telling about the difference? Lesley Kellogg: When we talk about convention conventional medicine, do you mean SSRIs Dr. Harold Hong: [00:26:00] or, oh, just SPR bravado. You went to a clinic, they gave you your dose and they Yeah. They checked you out a couple hours later. Lesley Kellogg: Got you. Yes. So I had a client who had a pretty negative experience because it was, there was a lot of different things that in interacted. Where the set was not talked about. The person in the room was not the person in the room that would've been, she knew this person. And so then she was afraid of what I'm gonna say. Lesley Kellogg: Because I know this person. What if the thoughts I'm having, I'm saying out loud because you don't know if sometimes uhhuh what is my thought and what am I actually verbalizing? So that is what tripped me up to. Reach out to the provider and say, can I, how would you feel if I came in, this is where I'm coming from. Lesley Kellogg: This is my experience. And the provider open welcomed me with open arms, which is fantastic. Yeah. But then after that, the experience was a lot more calming it. She knew that if she said something ev I told her, even if you say I cannot stand Leslie, she is the worst therapist ever. That's totally okay. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. And I'm not, when she opens her eyes, [00:27:00] I'm not gonna say, so let's talk about this. That's right. Like I'm really happy that you felt honest that's okay. Yeah. So having a space to where you could just be completely yourself and then working on it afterwards with a therapist that knows. Lesley Kellogg: More about the experience and from what I've heard has been really helpful. Versus just relying on yourself and then telling the doctor, yes, it was good, or No, I think I need more, or I don't ever wanna do this again. What did you do to me? Dr. Harold Hong: Right. Huge difference. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah, Graham Doerge: definitely huge. Graham Doerge: Is there anybody that absolutely should not do this? Lesley Kellogg: That's a good question. I think with people who have a history of maybe like intense history of dissociation, I. But I say that with also stating that there are therapists that will specialize in working with people with dissociation through psychedelics. Lesley Kellogg: So it depends on the medical team that you have, and it should always be some sort of team if possible. Yeah. So it's not [00:28:00] just a therapist, like there is a provider, a doctor that, or a. PA or whatever. That knows the medical side. That can work on work with you too. Graham Doerge: Right? Graham Doerge: Take taking vitals throughout. Lesley Kellogg: Exactly. Throughout. Yeah. Because there's practitioners that specialize in working with people with autism, with psychedelics. There's practitioners that will specialize in working with people with bipolar disorder, with psychedelics. Where you have that potential for mania. Lesley Kellogg: So making sure that you have a practitioner that knows. As much as they can before you make that decision. Yeah. Is important. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: So like in the absence of a special like care plan for people who are complicated most practices will say, relative contraindications are history of psychosis, history of mania. Dr. Harold Hong: History of like very high or uncontrolled hypertension. Because ketamine can cause your blood pressure to rise dramatically. Graham Doerge: Gotcha. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And also substance use. So like people who are actively abusing substances a ketamine would not be considered like the right time to do the treatment. Dr. Harold Hong: Got it. And Graham Doerge: what about clients that are on any other medica, [00:29:00] are on SSRIs and things of that nature. Is that conflicting in any Dr. Harold Hong: way or? No? You can be on an antidepressant and on ketamine, but most people are on, are doing ketamine treatment because they don't respond to SSRIs. Dr. Harold Hong: And there's some new clinical research coming out showing that. In this study population, ketamine treatment was equivalent to E C T. Wow. E c t is considered like the most effective, the most rapid resolution of severe depression. But it's a very, a taxing procedure to undergo, right? Dr. Harold Hong: You have to be seen by an anesthesiologist and a psychiatrist at the same time. You have to basically take the whole day off from work because you have to be driven to the clinic and cuz of the anesthesia, you really can't drive yourself home. And this is three times a week for two to three weeks for an index course. Dr. Harold Hong: And it, that's you're take talking about taking like a month off of work basically. Wow. For a lot of people. Yeah. That's incredible. So the idea that ketamine is [00:30:00] equivalent to e C t is a game changer for treatment refractory depression. Yeah, Graham Doerge: absolutely. Yeah. Any other Dr. Harold Hong: questions, doc? Oh, like so many, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Keep going. Yeah. Let's see. Okay, so have you ever, what are some things that patients should really think about before like this? What are some things that a patient would reflect on and say, yeah, this could be. The right fit Lesley Kellogg: for me. I think openness, number one. Lesley Kellogg: Flexibility is important because if, when people go in with rigidity and knowing what to expect, yeah. That can backfire a lot. And so we ask people to go in with a beginner's mind. Where you're open to whatever unfolds and you also know that you have support for whatever unfolds. Lesley Kellogg: People who I think. Have had psychedelic experience can be helpful, but it's not necessary. In many of the studies, they actually had a high number of people that were coming from a Catholic [00:31:00] background where they did not have a, the flexibility and. Catholicism and flexibility don't really mesh that well. Lesley Kellogg: And nor does psychedelic use, right? But they actually had really incredible experiences and labeled them as some of the most spiritual experiences that they've ever had, right? So being able to be flexible and to be able to go with the flow. Now saying that to somebody with a history of trauma, can, they might say I'm not flexible. Lesley Kellogg: I can't be flexible. If I'm flexible, I might get hurt. So working on that ahead of time too. Yeah. But I think just people who are open to it. And trust your gut. The more you learn, the more you think it's not for you. Go with that. Yeah. I think with it being everywhere now where there's books, there's podcasts, there's, there's Netflix, right? Lesley Kellogg: There's so many things on psychedelics where it's almost being shown as a silver bullet. And so people think this is what I should do. And it's not right. It will be effective for some people. It will be ineffective for some people. So going [00:32:00] into it thinking. It through for you, not this is what I should do because this is what I see everywhere. Lesley Kellogg: Or because there's a catchy headline. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Graham Doerge: And I would also think too that, that everybody has gotta be very careful about where they're doing this. If they're going out of the country to do this, be very cautious. Definitely about where you're going. Right? Graham Doerge: Because I think that there are a lot of people that are, taking advantage of the fact that this is such a hot topic right now and maybe aren't, don't have the right the right people in involved or the right support in involved to to run one of these places. So right. Graham Doerge: Yeah, doing your due diligence is essential for Lesley Kellogg: sure. And it's even hard to, for people who don't really know what even, what questions to even ask. Absolutely. Graham Doerge: What would you tell Yeah. People, what kind of questions Lesley Kellogg: I would ask? If you're going outside of the country, what type of support, what are my accommodations gonna be like? Lesley Kellogg: Am I going to be by myself? Is somebody gonna be with me the whole time? Is there gonna be a camera in the room? What's my dose gonna be? How often do I talk to a provider? A medical [00:33:00] provider. How many sessions do I have before or after? What do I do if I get there and I don't wanna do it? Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Is that gonna be something that's accepted and discussed? Or is this something where you're here and I'm gonna be talking you into it? I think when it comes to. Underground work too. That's very popular And I think a lot of underground work is great. And then there's a lot of underground work that is abusive and explain underground work. Lesley Kellogg: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. So underground work would be, I. Practitioners, they could be licensed or they could not be necessarily licensed, but they're facilitating sessions with medicine from homes or from Airbnbs or from hotels. And it sounds pretty sketchy and it can be pretty sketchy. But it also can be really powerful. Lesley Kellogg: And how do you know the difference? So I would always ask people, I would, if I was trying to find a place to go for myself, I would ask who is the facilitator? Am I able to speak to the facilitator? Yep. What other people are gonna be there as [00:34:00] support? Are these people going to be also under the influence of the medicine? Lesley Kellogg: And I'm not saying that if the answer is yes, that's wrong, but it's good to know. Yeah. What is a normal session like? Yep. Has anything bad ever happened? What do you guys do when something like that happens? Yeah. If I pass out, what's gonna happen? There's so many different ways that something can go wrong, but with adequate preparation, you're really helping yourself to figure out what's gonna happen next. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah. Can I bring somebody? Yeah. Can I talk to somebody who has gone through your protocol just to see what their experience was like? Graham Doerge: Think that's a huge one right there. Yeah. And we do that with a lot of alumni families and whatnot. Is listen, we'll we're happy to set you up with a couple alumni parents who've, been through our program, experienced what we do, and they can tell you what their experience was like. Yeah. And think something like that would be huge definitely to an experience like this. You, I would want to know somebody who went there and had gone through this before. I think, yeah, exactly. But also what's the facilitator's background, right? Graham Doerge: Yes. How long have they been doing this? Why [00:35:00] are they doing this? Yes. Lesley Kellogg: Yes. Yeah. So especially if, I'm always weary of if people, especially in western culture, that refer to themselves as a shaman. And I'm not saying that there aren't some, but just to be aware of that. Lesley Kellogg: What is, are they approachable? Did they think that they know everything? Because that's always a red flag for me. Yeah. Even through all of my training and learning from people who have been in. Been experiencing psychedelics and been studying psychedelics for longer than I've been alive. Lesley Kellogg: They'll always say that they don't know everything. Oh, yeah. And that they're always learning. Yeah. And they can learn from anybody regardless of where they are in their career. Yeah. And that's what I look to, right? Not the person who's all knowing and can feel everything and sense everything. Lesley Kellogg: It's the people that are just, I'm just a guy, or I'm just a girl and this is my calling and if I need help. I'll ask. That's always really powerful to hear. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it's obviously a great topic and more will be exposed here over the coming years. Graham Doerge: Yes. And [00:36:00] it'll really be interesting to see how the politics play into all this and how big pharma plays into all of this. But I think all in all, going back to the therapeutic component, is just, if we lose that or if that somehow doesn't become the priority, then. Graham Doerge: I think that they're this isn't gonna be as effective as it could be. Definitely. And we've gotta hold onto to that. But thank you for coming in and speaking with us today. This was so fun. Thank you. And yeah. Yeah. Where can everybody find you? First in, first Lesley Kellogg: off? Yeah. So through my practice website is www dot prism, not prison Prism. Lesley Kellogg: Wellness nc.com and my contact information is on the website. Perfect. And we'll Graham Doerge: have everything listed out too in our show notes. And you can find us at finding new waters.com. And this will be streaming on all streaming platforms. And we will see y'all next week. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Graham Doerge: Thanks for having me. Me, Leslie. Lesley Kellogg: Yeah.[00:37:00] Show Notes In this enlightening episode of Finding New Waters Podcast we welcome guest speaker Lesley Kellogg, a seasoned psychotherapist with profound expertise in psychedelic-assisted therapies. We delve into the fascinating world of psychedelics, their therapeutic potential, and how they are transforming modern psychotherapy. Our discussion begins with a detailed exploration of the healing potential of psychedelic substances such as psilocybin and ketamine, focusing on their ability to provide relief to individuals suffering from conditions like PTSD, depression, and addiction. We then tackle the prerequisites and considerations for individuals seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy, stressing the importance of thorough preparation, the right mindset, and a supportive therapeutic environment. We also discuss the potential risks associated with psychedelics and the importance of exercising due diligence when seeking treatment, particularly outside of a regulated setting. Lastly, we contemplate the future of psychedelic-assisted therapy, considering potential obstacles such as political factors and the influence of big pharma.Join us for this intriguing exploration of the expanding frontier of psychedelic therapy, and discover how this revolution could potentially reshape mental health treatment. Lesley's Links: ⁠https://www.prismwellnessnc.com/our-therapists⁠(https://www.prismwellnessnc.com/our-therapists) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-kellogg-prism/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-kellogg-prism/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

< Back to Episodes Finding Clarity: Exploring Giftedness and Recovery with Andrea Lein 45:08 min | Andrea Lein | Finding New Waters In this episode of 'Finding New Waters,' host B. Reeves from New Waters Recovery engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Andrea Lein, an expert in clinical and school psychology with a focus on supporting parents of gifted and twice-exceptional young adults and adolescents. The conversation explores the unique challenges faced by gifted individuals, including the often misunderstood aspects of their mental health and substance use struggles Subscribe "You alone can do it, but you can't do it alone. We used to say that all the time. You alone can do it. It's your responsibility to do this work, but you can't do it alone." -Andrea Lein Show Notes In this episode of 'Finding New Waters,' host B.Reeves from New Waters Recovery engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Andrea Lein, an expert in clinical and school psychology with a focus on supporting parents of gifted and twice-exceptional young adults and adolescents. The conversation explores the unique challenges faced by gifted individuals, including the often misunderstood aspects of their mental health and substance use struggles. Andrea shares her journey, from her personal experiences to her professional focus on giftedness and neurodiversity, highlighting the importance of community and asking for help. She also delves into the nuanced issues surrounding ADHD diagnosis and medication, offering insights into the complexities of treatment and the role of environmental factors in supporting mental health. The discussion underlines the critical need for understanding and supporting gifted and twice-exceptional individuals through specialized approaches that consider their unique talents and vulnerabilities. Andrea Lein Link: https://www.andrealein.com

In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. < Back to Episodes Why Long-Term Recovery Works with Eric Button 52:29 min | Eric Button | Finding New Waters In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. Subscribe "The success rate is huge. Those families that invest in their own recovery, 12 step. Recovery in conjunction with working with other professionals involved in their life that increases, the families can destroy what was gone, what took five months. They can, they can tear it down in, in five minutes." -Eric Button Podcast Transcript Eric Button Eric Button: [00:00:00] So more than likely, every client that says that they worked the 12 steps and it didn't work for them, they, they never worked the 12 steps, right? They, they, they, they, uh, basically just gave the 12 steps lip service, right? They didn't invest in all. So the beneficial ness of having a community that's invested in the, in the 12 steps. Eric Button: The people that are on the fence are on the edge of the funnel for the 12 steps. Eric Button: They start having an experience with it because it's the whole culture.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is off in the darkest hour for many families. All right, welcome everybody. Uh, we've got Eric Button with us here today. Eric is the Family Liaison and senior business development representative for B Burning Tree Programs. Graham Doerge: Welcome, Eric. Thank you for being with us today. Well, Eric Button: thank you for having me, Graham. Of course. Welcome. Graham Doerge: Yeah, Eric, can I go back a little ways, uh, back to, uh, kind of Texas days and, and great to reconnect with you. Um, you know, I always like starting these, these podcasts off, obviously want to give our listeners, um, a little bit of information on your background and, you know, [00:02:00] how did you get into this field, how did you start working in the behavioral health field? Graham Doerge: And, uh, maybe just a little bit about your story. Well, Eric Button: first off, I'm honored to be on, uh, new Waters Recovery Podcast, finding New Waters. And, um, I got sober on the 21st day of July, 2005. So I just celebrated 18 years. Um, was that last, that was last week. Okay. And, uh, it was, it was the morning. I was not planning on getting sober, but the, uh, uh, the universe used, um, The legal system to help guide me into this funnel of change. Eric Button: Right? And, um, I got to be a client that, that went to Burning Tree. I had many attempts at getting sober previously. Um, I always seemed to have the jobs, which always afforded me to buy the legal representation [00:03:00] that, um, could allow me to, uh, Continued to live in a way that I thought I was in control of what was going on. Eric Button: Mm-hmm. Uh, last time I got arrested, I already had bond paid, uh, at a bonding company. All they had to do was just find my name that comes up on the computer and uh, and I got out. So, um, that's how I operate a Graham Doerge: bond company. Eric Button: Yeah. I mean that. Yeah. And, um, It took me a long time to buy into what this, this theory of honesty is and, uh, because I thought I was in control of everything, so I got to go to Burning Tree as a client. Eric Button: Um, I would say I was not, uh, I, it is what ultimately saved my life. Um, it took me probably seven months to buy into, um, being honest. Yeah. [00:04:00] Um, and, uh, ever since, um, I have maintained my sobriety and I have enlarged my sobriety on a, on a daily basis, um, I'm sponsored. I have sponsees in the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Eric Button: Um, I got out of Burning Tree in September of 2006. And, uh, while I was a client at Burning Tree, there was a gentleman who was the C e O, his name was Mark Houston. Hmm. Mark Houston called me. I was gonna go work for a guy. Um, I was go, so my entire adult life from basically 15 till 30, um, 36, I was in the car parts business and, um, in management. Eric Button: Mm-hmm. My last job I was at International Trucking Engine Corporation as the, uh, modification [00:05:00] department, uh, lead, and I had like 23 guys working under me. Wow. Um, I was going to, I got outta burn tree. This is a time when, uh, there really wasn't a lot of, of aftercare. When you leave treatment, there was like Oxford houses, but Sober Living was just starting. Eric Button: I got outta Burning Tree. I went to an Oxford house and I was gonna go work for a guy that was opening a body shop up in Austin, Texas. And uh, my phone rang and it was a friend of mine who I got sober with at Burning Tree named Greg Rolfe and Mark Houston. And they, uh, called and asked if I thought if I had ever thought about working in the. Eric Button: Treatment field. Yeah. And I said, no, I hadn't. I, I got a job. I mean, I was gonna go work for this guy named Dave h And um, you know, I would've started out making $20 an hour and, [00:06:00] you know, quickly would've worked my way up. I. Right. Um, so I went out to a place, Graham Doerge: a sobriety, a recovery job, right? Yeah. Recovery job. Graham Doerge: Getting that recovery job. And, and you know, obviously we recommend to, to, you know, young men and, and people kind of in that early phase of, of recovery. You know, get something that's gonna be a little bit lower stress, you know, pay some of the bills, but nothing kind of too, too overwhelming, right? Eric Button: Yeah. Eric Button: Not, not a career job. Right, right. Get your feet wet. Put, uh, put, put my recovery first. Right. Home group. Home group. Uh, continuing to work with my sponsor and, uh, continuing to work the steps. And then I had a referral for a therapist that I was continuing to see and, and just putting the actions into, uh, realization. Eric Button: Mm-hmm. And, uh, phone rang. So I went out to see Mark. His new place in, in Maynard, Texas called Mark Houston Recovery. It was [00:07:00] actually called the Last Resort when they first opened. And something just told me that, hey, this is, this is kind of cool. So I took a $9 an hour job. $9, and I hadn't made nine. I don't think I ever made $9 an hour right until then. Eric Button: And, uh, driving the guys and, and, um, just being, um, invested. With them on this path of changing their trajectory. Hmm. And, uh, mark Houston's flourished. It took off. Um, I opened up a transition, uh, program called Addiction Directions, and we worked with all of the clients coming outta Mark Houston. So we had a very robust, um, sober living environment with, uh, post-treatment, uh, discharge plan. Eric Button: Implementation program called adap, addiction Directions Accountability Program. [00:08:00] And it took off and we had a lot of success. And, uh, like, like everything in life and, um, recovery, things change. There's an ebb and flow to everything. And, uh, we lost Mark, unfortunately, and some of the business partners in the, in the, uh, process, uh, I closed down addiction directions and I had an opportunity from our owner, we're family owned at Burning Tree. Eric Button: Uh, gentleman named David Elliot reached out and, and asked if I ever thought about coming to work for him. Hmm. And uh, this November I will have been with Burning Tree for 10 years. Wow. And, uh, burning Graham Doerge: Tree, which is a, a very long time in, in the recovery fields industry. Yeah. It's, yeah, you're somewhere for more than three years. Graham Doerge: It's, it seems like a lifetime Eric Button: and it's, um, it, it really falls in line with the who I am. I'm a very [00:09:00] loyal type person, as you can tell. I was very loyal to the drugs and alcohol I was using for a long time. Mm-hmm. And, um, I have been in the business development role and have been in the family communication role and, and connecting with the families since I, since I went to Burning Tree and, um, burning Tree's. Eric Button: Family owned, it was started in 1999, uh, by David Elliot. Um, Our initial program is in Kaufman, Texas. That's our long-term program. Average length to stay is anywhere from eight to 14 months of residential treatment with a 12 month transition period after. Um, we usually seem to have a census of 22 to 28 men and women. Eric Button: That just seems to be our ebb and flow. Uh, we're not for everybody. We are for the chronic [00:10:00] relapser. Whom have a family component or a, um, I would say a, a power source in their life that continues to enable them to run the show and make decisions. Mm-hmm. Which then in turn allows them to continue to just go to treatment after treatment after treatment. Eric Button: Average client's probably been to six previous treatments with failure. Um, All of our, all of our staff, except for our clinical director who's in recovery from, uh, for Al-Anon, um, is in recovery. Um, our executive director, Jesse Yearwood, he's a fellow alum of Burning Tree, and uh, we have a clinic. We have a couple of clinicians that are fellow alums. Eric Button: Majority of our staff, I would say 95% of them are all long-term employees. Mm-hmm. And when I say long [00:11:00] term, I mean eight years plus. Yeah. You guys are so Ryan Jarrell: long term over there. That's crazy. To go someplace 14 months and then work there 10 years. Like that's, I know they must serve good food or something. Ryan Jarrell: Right. Eric Button: You know? Right. Yeah. Well, Graham Doerge: it's so essential, and, and I know Ryan is dealing with this on a, on a daily basis. Right. And, and that was one of the real reasons I wanted to have you on here today was to kind of talk about this long-term aspect. Right. And, and I love that you highlight that the, your program is really well suited for. Graham Doerge: Kind of the chronic relapse, right? Yes. Um, because what we're seeing, you know, a ton of here at, at New Waters and really everybody's seen across the country is a lot of these young adult clients who are just, you know, we're not really identifying, uh, truly what, what's happening under the surface. Is there some sort of underlying mental health or, uh, learning disability or maybe on the spectrum or, you know, and, and really just kind of pigeonholing them into the same kind of cookie cutter. Graham Doerge: Primary substance use track that maybe isn't hitting all the marks right. And they don't get the help that they need. And then ultimately they're in [00:12:00] treatment, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 times. Family's down a half a million dollars, you know, putting 'em in treatment and they, their kid is still sick. Um, so I do, I, I'm a big proponent of this, of the long-term treatment really does work, right? Graham Doerge: Statistically we know you have a better shot the longer term you stay in, in, in treatment. So, yeah. Yeah. Talk about that a little and, and what y'all do there and your philosophy on that. Eric Button: The huge, the huge, uh, advantage of long term is, um, every client comes to Burning Tree and they've got other diagnoses other than drugs and alcohol, right? Eric Button: They do have some mental health. They have some diagnoses of depression or schizoaffective or, or bipolar or, um, an anxiousness. Um, and. What ends up happening in long-term treatment is the client gets to get back to this homeostasis, right? [00:13:00] They're going to bed at a set time, they're getting eight hours of sleep. Eric Button: They're monitored in their sleep, right bed checks, ensuring that they're, uh, making observations. Oh, we notice that. Mm-hmm. Eric is quite a snore. Okay. Maybe we can do something to help. Create a better sleep for Eric or, um, so we know about everything that's going on. Um, they get up at a set time, they do prayer, meditation, they do, um, they eat breakfast at a set time. Eric Button: They exert themselves physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. So we're hitting on all these aspects during the day. Um, master level clinicians and work in the steps of, of Alcoholics Anonymous independently, but everything's intertwined. Our psychiatrist, Dr. Uh, Seacrest, a [00:14:00] a, uh, psychiatrist. He's very versed at working with Burning Tree. Eric Button: He's been with us for 15 years. Um, he's also a fellow at, um, uh, Presbyterian Dallas. Um, in the J five, uh, section of the hospital, which is their mental health wing, um, he's very versed. He's, I would say he is a med minimalist. He's also, uh, does psychotherapy in conjunction with his, his, uh, prescribing if they need anything. Eric Button: Um, and he sees 'em for a complete hour. Amazing. Right? Graham Doerge: What an anomaly Eric Button: Not on Zoom. He's out there and he's interacting with the staff, uh, daily or weekly. He, he interacts with staff on Mondays, uh, by, by, uh, uh, zoom. And then when he comes out to see the clients on Fridays, they meet with him and they go over everything. Eric Button: They, they [00:15:00] share observations of what's going on with each client that he's seeing. And it's very, everything is very intertwined. The clients are working the steps independently from what they're doing clinically. And what that means is staff is not taking 'em through the steps. Hmm. An independent sponsor. Eric Button: So they go out to meetings every night of the week except for, um, Sunday nights. We have an in-house meeting, we're taking 'em into Dallas, they're driving into van in Vans, and, uh, they're going to gender specific meetings or they're going to, uh, aftercare meeting, or they're going to. Uh, Wednesdays to our Dallas office so they can see their sponsors in person. Eric Button: We make it easier for the sponsors instead of driving out 45 miles east and south of downtown Dallas. We're, we're bringing the clients into Dallas. The, the sponsors can come out and, um, work with their pons on Sundays and everything [00:16:00] is communicated and it's very, uh, systematic. A client, um, works the steps and the sponsor is signed off on them to move forward from say, step one to step two, and then the client puts in a request to present to the staff they share. Eric Button: What that current step means to them, and then the staff collectively votes on if they should move forward or if there's something that we think is amiss, we're gonna get with the sponsor and make some suggestions. We're not guiding and directing the sponsor Sponsee relationship, but I would say we're getting shoulder to shoulder with them to work on a common goal. Eric Button: I would say 95% of our clients, they're all being sponsored by alum that have been separated from Burning Tree for at least two years post. Uh, completing the entire program. Right. Ryan Jarrell: Um, I love how you guys intertwine that clinical work, that like cutting edge, clinically astute work with the 12 step modality. Ryan Jarrell: 'cause so often we see people lean either one way [00:17:00] or the other, right? Where it's like you do the 12 steps, but you're not allowed to take antipsychotics or you're allowed to do everything. But the 12 steps related to spirituality and like holding that balance is, is just so important. Eric, I'm really curious. Ryan Jarrell: Like I could see why families would be attracted to this program. Like we see plenty of families that are like, Oh, yeah, you can lock 'em up for eight to 14 months. Like, that's not a problem. Um, my my curiosity is for you, yourself, what drove you to engage in this, in this long-term treatment program? Eric Button: Well, um, leverage. Eric Button: Okay. If it wasn't for, if it wasn't for leverage, uh, my, my leverage was, um, legal, correct. Right. Um, There's all kinds of, and, and, and leverage seems like a, a kind of a, it's a truthful word. Mm-hmm. But it's, um, it, I would say we could use opportunity. Right? [00:18:00] There ain't a single, there ain't a single, there ain't a single client that's coming to Burna Tree and they're like, ah, I wanna go to long-term treatment. Eric Button: Right? Mm-hmm. But the families are on board. And then until, and most families are on board until we start asking them to get involved, right? Mm-hmm. We're wanting them to work with a, a, uh, counselor, therapist, or a, or an addiction consultant or, or some type of, um, extra, um, professional involved in their life. Eric Button: We're also wanting them to be invested in their own recovery, so Al-Anon, families Anonymous, things like this. And, uh, we're holding them accountable to putting those actions forward. We're wanting the entire system to start having a communication of recovery. Um, so there are families that are on board and then they become resistant just like their, just like their loved one. Eric Button: I [00:19:00] like using the analogy of a funnel burning trees like a funnel. There's a big end on a funnel, you know what that looks like, and then it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Yep. That big funnel is, uh, is the universe using leverage or opportunity, whatever you wanna call it, to get this client inside the funnel? Eric Button: And I, I, I'll refer to the funnel as change. Hmm. Several of these clients that come to Burning Tree or, or have had the opportunity to come to New Waters, they get in the funnel, but they always seem to hold onto the rim. Or they just stick their toe in and they're really good at telling people what they want to hear. Eric Button: Basically their power source. Right? Right. Oh, I, I got this. I'm, I'm, I know exactly what to do now, but they never really invest in getting in the funnel. That funnel is representative of, of the outer part of the funnel is resistance. [00:20:00] The inner part of the funnel is the, the flow of life. And it's the acceptance, right? Eric Button: As a client, um, gets invested in, in creating a relationship with honesty, they're gonna move towards the center of the funnel and they're gonna, they're gonna have an experience with, and they're gonna like it. Yeah. Then they're gonna hear some truth about themselves or they're gonna bump up against themselves or some kind of circumstance is going to come involved in their life. Eric Button: Most, uh, I would say a hundred percent of, um, Chronic relapsers are resistant to, um, adversity. Hmm. So adversity's gonna come up and, uh, they're going to migrate toward the edge of the funnel trying to get out. But as they move down and they start having to experience the distance between the resistance and the acceptance, the length of time becomes shorter and shorter and shorter. Eric Button: And Burning Tree is not [00:21:00] about just holding onto a client and hope through osmosis that they're just gonna change. Mm-hmm. We're gonna be constantly pushing them to, to venture out to the edge of the funnel so they can come back to the center and as a client engages in, um, accepting diversity on life's terms. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. Eric Button: Then they come out the other end of that funnel. They've been through the 12 steps and it's about wide open freedom. That's what recovery guarantees. I love that. So that's the analogy, analogy that I'd like to use. There's many ups and downs, twists and turns to it. Um, and, uh, Lord knows I had many ups and downs, twists and turns to it. Eric Button: But, um, life is so rewarding when we take the, uh, position. That was really intended for us when we were born. Yeah. [00:22:00] Graham Doerge: And I think that, you know, when I think about, you know, these long-term programs and all that, and, and, and I know Ryan's dealing with this on a daily basis where people are just, they can't even fathom the fact that we're asking them to take even three months to, to go and do something like this. Graham Doerge: And the reality is, you know, listen, we're we're asking you to. To make an entire psychic shift here. Right. And that is not gonna happen in three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks. Right. And it's just not, you know, maybe you'll have a, you'll have a lot of insight and you'll have a lot of growth during that period, but you're, but you're still truly, the foundation is not there. Graham Doerge: Right, right. And it's super high risk. So, but it's, it's really interesting where, you know, I just think back to my own, uh, you know, experience and treatment and all that, and I didn't, It's pretty much close to 90 days in, in, in a, an inpatient residential facility, and then did sober living after that. And really, I had no intention of, of doing that long a period of time. Graham Doerge: But, you know, I had the, the, the. You know, the blessing [00:23:00] of while I was in treatment, just understanding that like, okay, life is not over now because I can't drink or use for the rest of my life. Like, look at all the amazing things I can do now. Look at all the things that I've always wanted to do, but I've never done because I've been sitting in a basement drinking by myself for five years. Graham Doerge: You know when you can kind of attach to that. And to have that perspective. And it's hard, it's really hard for people to get there. Right. But it certainly is not gonna happen in two, three weeks in most cases. Right. You know, it's just not. And um, and then when I look back at that time, Eric Button: sorry, go on. Yeah. Eric Button: Just like you drinking in that, in that basement, you didn't just start drinking immediately in the basement. It took time to get to that point. That's all I wanted to Yep. I just wanted to, yeah, Graham Doerge: and, and you know, and I look back at that, you know, y basically year that I took to really kind of focus on, on building this foundation and, and it was like the blink of an eye. Graham Doerge: I mean, I think back to that year and it just went, you know, so fast. And, um, [00:24:00] and, and really, I, I would never change a thing. You know, I'm so glad that I did what I did and I put that time in and I had the, you know, I just had the awareness to do that, you know, and I truly feel like I was touched by the hand of God. Graham Doerge: Um, and, and you know, he just really kind of gave me that awareness to say, you know what? I'm just gonna get outta my own way. I'm gonna surrender to the process and I'm gonna do whatever you guys tell me I need to do. And when I did that, it got so easy. It got so easy. Yeah. So, yeah, Eric Button: the re got in the middle of the. Eric Button: Right. Ryan Jarrell: A hundred percent. So many of us were not willing to accept that we have a fatal disease. Right. And that's really what it comes down to. That's what I see in our clients as we're working with them again and again. They think this is an overreaction because they don't have a fatal disease. If we were marching in those rooms and telling them they had pancreatic cancer and this was a type of chemotherapy that would affect that, how we wouldn't be able to hold them back from the chemo clinic. Ryan Jarrell: Right. Wouldn't matter if it was in Texas. Wouldn't matter if it took six months. Um, and that was true for me too, and, and I had to realize. That's exactly what I have. [00:25:00] I had to realize that I had to realize I was gonna die from it. 'cause otherwise I wasn't gonna put it first. You know, I'm someone who, personally, I had a very limited like, um, kind of recovery and treatment experience. Ryan Jarrell: I had to go and figure it out on my own because resources and insurance, they just weren't available at that time. And I would much rather do this on a, I would've much rather done it on a ranch in Texas than work in a Chinese food restaurant. You know what I mean? Going to 7:00 AM meetings. 'cause I work all night and I think about the pain that I put my family to, not just in addiction but in early sobriety too. Ryan Jarrell: Getting to know my now wife, you know, to be able, what we're offering people is. Is relief from a fatal disease in as comfortable a location as possible. But until they can hear that, they're not going to accept it. And, and it's, it's a wonderful that they get to wait and they get to have all those breakthroughs. Ryan Jarrell: And I did have those breakthroughs in sobriety, but to be able to be shepherded and, and be in an intimate community, there's no intimate community. I'm sure. Like what you guys have going on at Burning Tree. Yeah. The way that people get to know each other and hold each other, it's just, I'm sure it's wonderful to be a [00:26:00] part of. Ryan Jarrell: Yep. Eric Button: Yeah. Um, you know, we, we don't recover by ourself. No, Graham Doerge: a hundred percent. So, yeah. And that's, that's the beauty of, of. Of this life after, right? I mean, it becomes so full. And, um, and, you know, I, I also, uh, just wanted to kind of touch on, you know, the other, the other component that I think is really important for families to hear is they're kind of trying to navigate, you know, these, these complex issues with their loved ones is, you know, the, the fact that you are kind of a mom and pop operation, right? Graham Doerge: You're a small operation. You run pretty lean, uh, you know, lean from, lean from the census, uh, aspect, but not from staffing, but, You guys? Um, I think that that is a huge thing for me, right? When I'm, when we're referring clients out, we're typically, we're trying to look for a smaller, more boutique type program that's kind of family owned and operated in my experience. Graham Doerge: It's just, you know, you're gonna get better service, you're gonna get better care. You know, clinical team, you know, a lot of the time is just gonna be a little bit more bought in. [00:27:00] Um, they're probably treated a little bit better, culture's a little bit better, so, you know. Yeah. Talk about that a little bit if you could. Eric Button: So the, um, Eric Button: The, the, the biggest advantage is the length of time for these clients. It's very peer driven, right? So you have, you have senior clients that's been there for 8, 9, 10 months. So they get to implement the principles of recovery in their life, and they get to give back to the newcomers that are coming in. Eric Button: So that aspect is huge on building community. And then that community is what's gonna trans translate into them implementing in their life. The other thing on the family aspect of it is, um, they have been so wrapped up and so involved in trying to fix it mm-hmm. But not really taking an investment in [00:28:00] fixing themselves. Eric Button: Hmm. That this period of time where, and quite frankly I'm just gonna say it, their loved one is their drug. Mm-hmm. Right? Absolutely. So as they start having an experience of being free from having to fix it or, or control it, um, both sides of the coin can heal. And then both sides of the coin can come back together in a new relationship. Eric Button: And that, I hope that answers, I think that answers what you're talking about. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And absolutely. And I think that, you know, obviously, and, and the family, you know, programming that you guys do now, do you guys do, I would assume you have kind of several, uh, family, uh, meeting or on campus events or throughout the time Eric Button: that you're there. Eric Button: So fam so this is the, so with family, Yeah. Um, a lot of communication with them in the [00:29:00] beginning. Um, we do what we call a post admission intervention. That's a process that I get to facilitate. The client's been with us two to six weeks, okay. 95% of the clients, unless I'm outta town, I've got to meet them when they were in detox. Eric Button: That are coming to the ranch. So I'm making connection with them in the very beginning, or I've talked to 'em on the very front end, or sometimes I've talked to the family on the very front end. So a client comes to the ranch, we're assembling the entire, uh, support system, right? Uh, the client's counselor, myself, uh, the power in their life could be mom, dad. Eric Button: Mom's in Atlanta, dad's in Jacksonville, Florida. They're divorced. And then maybe the loved one has four [00:30:00] siblings, bringing everybody together, creating a relationship with them, meeting with them, expanding on, and, and, uh, inviting them to set realistic boundaries, not boundaries that they think we want to hear, but realistic boundaries. Eric Button: Because what we want to do is help solidify this client in the funnel. Mm-hmm. They're gonna test the boundaries because they have already been testing boundaries or, or families tell, oh, if you don't do this, you're you're not gonna get any more money. Or you're not gonna, we're not gonna do this. We're No, we, if you leave, don't call me 'cause I'm not answering the phone. Eric Button: Well, that's not realistic. Okay. Okay. We want, we want to help the family set something that is their truth. So we set these boundaries. We bring the client in. They're only gonna see their loved 1, 10, 20 minutes. [00:31:00] It's basically a business meeting that we're conducting, and that business meeting is for their loved one that's at Burning Tree to hear what the family's boundaries are and what their hopes are. Eric Button: And, and, and. What an opportunity that they are giving their loved one. Yeah. I love Then the, then the, then the client gets to accept or they may bump up against themselves. They may be angry, many, it's very organic and uh, then they accept what's going on and then we want to hear what their commitment is. Eric Button: And what we're looking for is for them to verbally commit. And we know that every addict alcoholic is very good at committing to doing things. Mm-hmm. And then it's up to us to help them put the action forward to actually realize it. Um, so we, that's the first process. We don't have visitation every month at Burning Tree. Eric Button: We have visitation every other month. A client will have had [00:32:00] an opportunity to be with us for at least 30 days prior to a visit. Um, so we have visitation every other month, uh, every even month, which would be the third sun Sunday of the month. When a family has a loved one that's with us, their first visitation, they get to attend a family workshop that we facilitate at our Dallas office. Eric Button: That family workshop consists of our owner and founder, our executive director, our clinical director, our our transitions director, an alumni, an alumni family, myself, and sometimes our uh, chief operating Officer, who's also. A, uh, alum of the program, Brooke McKenzie will be there, and then the families, and then what we're doing is our goal is to answer their questions about what Burning Tree is and what our processes are without them having to ask 'em, but then [00:33:00] giving them a format where they can ask. Eric Button: And it's very interactive and it's very, uh, you know, the alumni and the family, they do a real good job of, of explaining what's gone on. Yeah, what helped them change and the, and the, and the roadblocks. And then we don't have family program until the client is through and in the amen's process, we want them to internalize what's going on. Eric Button: The family program is a three day, uh, intensive. Usually it's two to four clients, just depending on the line, the lineup. Hmm. And their, and their loved ones. Some, some clients will go through family two or three times. Wow. Depending on what the family dynamics are. It's, uh, we bring in a lady named, um, um, oh, I'm drawing a blank. Eric Button: She's got a counseling office. Um, Angie [00:34:00] Booya. She has a counseling office in Dallas called Sparrow House Counseling. Very, very, uh, um, she would Graham Doerge: best Eric Button: to you. She is L L P C. L P C, got it. L P C and then our clinical director, and they facilitate. So we have somebody that's comes in that's not really connected with the family or the client and then works in conjunction with our clinical director. Eric Button: And it's lot of psychodrama, different modalities that they use in the process. And it's a three day, uh, experience. That's awesome. Every family that comes to Burning Tree, they have been through numerous family programs and they're very jaded. Sure, Graham Doerge: true. So it's very Eric Button: different. They wanna treat treatment. Ryan Jarrell: They wanna treat treatment like a fishbowl with which to look at the loved one, Eric Button: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, uh, and then they, and then they do family program. And then, and then the client continues to do treatment. And before [00:35:00] they transition, From residential treatment, they start, uh, integrating into transitions. Eric Button: And that's a slow process, you know, um, we give 'em a little bit of room, pull back, see how they handle it, give 'em a little bit more room, let 'em, let 'em navigate some adversity, pull back and, um, it's, it's, it's very organic. Process each. Each client has, you know, different needs and different, um, circumstances. Eric Button: Um, we do, uh, lots of trauma work in conjunction with treatment, um, you know, all kinds of modalities that they use. Um, drew McLaughlin and, and, and our clinical director, Megan Bowman, they'll do E M D R and some psychodrama and. They'll utilize, um, equine [00:36:00] therapy and other, other opportunities. And sometimes, yeah, we may find that a client needs a little bit more and, and, and we use some, some partners, you know, like, um, onsite or milestones or Right. Eric Button: Or, or the bridge or something like that. In conjunction with, then they'll come back and continue their treatment or what we're very. We're very, uh, collaborative and uh, we want the best to maximize the opportunity for the client to get and stay sober. 'cause that's what we're about. Graham Doerge: So you've had clients go to onsite and do you know, a trauma workshop? Graham Doerge: The living center program? I would, I would assume and then come back to you guys. That's awesome. Ryan Jarrell: Yep. What I, what I love about this process, I think is it's really evocative of actual recovery. Like 30 day residential treatment is fantastic. I think we can all agree on that, especially for those, it's effective for, you go in for 30 days, you do like the graduation ceremony at the end, like [00:37:00] everyone claps, but it also paints this picture kind of like this show intervention, that recovery is just this straight lineup. Ryan Jarrell: And we're just going to kind of rocket ship right up. And my experience working in transitional living is there are gonna be peaks and there are gonna be valleys throughout that recovery process. And we're gonna take some steps back and hopefully it doesn't involve use. Right? But we're gonna crash sometimes. Ryan Jarrell: And for someone to be present and, and to attend to that and just acknowledge it as a reality is so, so important in the recovery landscape. Oh yeah. Eric Button: And the, the other piece is, um, our clients. They're gonna be invested in the, in the recovery process, right along the whole, the whole thing. When they get ready to make amends, um, you know, they're gonna be, they're gonna be instructed through their sponsor. Eric Button: They're gonna put in for a request to go on a pass to make amends. They're gonna take a buddy with them, that's a peer in the community, and they're gonna go on a men's proce. They're gonna go on a men's [00:38:00] trip so they can get some more power in their life. And project accepting what their past was and making amends for it. Eric Button: Like, Hey, this is what I did. Is there anything I missed? What is it I can do to make this right? And, and doing the actions of doing this. We want them to experience all of the steps. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And what are you doing with clients who are, um, you know, anti 12 steps, uh, that are just really not, not involved in, or, or, or open to, you know, any sort of tall up programming, are they? Graham Doerge: So I would, Eric Button: I would say this, this is the common thing that comes to Burning Tree or the common scenario. A client will come to us and they say, oh, I've done the 12 steps. They don't work for me. Graham Doerge: Yeah. What, tell me what that looks like. What, what did [00:39:00] that experience look like? Is that you go into a couple room meetings and just sitting in the back of the room, never introducing yourself, never talking to anybody, because if that's what it looked like, then, you know, that's not really what recovery is, right? Eric Button: Yeah. So more than likely, every client that says that they worked the 12 steps and it didn't work for them, they, they never worked the 12 steps, right? They, they, they, they, uh, Basically just gave the 12 steps lip service, right? Mm-hmm. They didn't invest in all, so the beneficial ness of having a community that's invested in the, in the 12 steps, the people that are on the fence or on the edge of the funnel for the 12 steps, Eric Button: they start having an experience with it because it's the whole culture, right? And then once they do, then they take off. Yeah. And that's been Graham Doerge: our experience. You'll bring those folks in and, and hopefully they [00:40:00] attach to it. They, you know, oh yeah. With the attraction. Right. And hopefully they see the rest of the crew is, is all super engaged and involved and, and, and then they hop on board as well once they kind of see the benefits from that aspect. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And Eric Button: Eric, the other aspect is, oh, go ahead. Ryan Jarrell: I, I just have a quick question. You know, one of the things that I think we see is a lot of guys who, who. They've been institutionalized. Sometimes they've gone to therapeutic boarding schools or wilderness programs starting at 16, and these guys have been in treatment for 10 years and there's a fear that there's a little treatment dependence there. Ryan Jarrell: Mm. Like they can live in these institutionalized environments, but they're scared or they can't engage. When or is there a point, I know you guys are long term, is there a point where you have to push some guys out of the nest and what does that look like? Eric Button: Oh, yes. So, um, We have an owner and we have a philosophy of Burning Tree. Eric Button: We're not in the business of taking these families money to change their loved one if the client continues to not put the effort forward. And [00:41:00] it's, it's all about behavior, right? If they're not putting the investment or following directions, or, or doing the things that we're expecting them to do, we're, uh, we're not just gonna, we're not just gonna hold onto 'em. Eric Button: We're gonna find a. Opportunity for them to move on somewhere else. Yeah. Or a client is gonna find an exit because they don't want to do what we're asking them to do. Right. And then they hope that their family's going to cave and, uh, go back to what they used to do, which was pick up the pieces and allow them to continue to do what they do. Eric Button: Um, majority of the time, I would say, 30% of the clients that come to Burning Tree, they're gonna test the waters. They're gonna walk off, they're gonna leave, they're gonna see if the, the family's really invested in holding the line for them to, to be in this funnel of [00:42:00] change. Um, and, uh, what that does, it helps the collective group, right. Eric Button: Um, yeah, deepen their investment in putting the effort forward. It's not easy. Burning Tree is not easy. No. Um, I know Graham Doerge: this is easy, Eric Button: high, high reward. Um, very high reward for the entire system. And Graham Doerge: what's your, what's your, i, i you something success rate. Do you, do you guys track that? Do you have any idea? So it's very hard. Eric Button: It's very hard to, to track that. Mm-hmm. Um, I can tell you this from my personal experience and from many others that I know that are in their recovery, in their life, the clients and the families. So the [00:43:00] clients that worked all 12 steps and were invested in following directions and, uh, were invested in always looking for opportunities to not fall back into the resistance. Eric Button: The success rate is huge. Yeah. Those families, those families that invest in their own recovery, 12 step. Um, recovery in conjunction with working with other professionals involved in their life that increases, the families can destroy what was gone, what took five months. They can, they can tear it down in, in five minutes. Eric Button: Mm-hmm. Yeah. As long as the entire system has made these productive changes and then got into action around those changes, I. The success rate is very high. The other thing that goes on with, um, increasing the [00:44:00] success rate is, especially with the family and especially with the client, they know everything about what we do and how we do it. Eric Button: The client knows what the expected length of stay is. The expected length of stay is based upon them and their progress. Yeah. We don't want anybody at Burning Tree Ranch any longer than they need to be there. Right. The only thing that's fixed on time is the transition program, and that's 12 months. The other thing, we are nicotine free at Burning Tree have been for, for seven years. Eric Button: Wow. I would say the number of smokers and tobacco users. Uh, has decreased over time. Yeah. Um, what I mean is, um, we do probably one to [00:45:00] three admissions a month. The past few months, um, none of those people were nicotine users, which is, which is astounding. Yeah. It's mad. But we do have the ones that, that are right. Eric Button: Yeah. And, uh, We completely take the nicotine out of the equation. If they're dependent on upon nicotine, we're gonna have a cessation plan. We're either gonna use a patch or we're gonna use a lozenge. Oh man. The families are on board with it, and the clients are on, I mean, they're not on board with it, but that's the fact. Eric Button: That's the, we're, we're, we're not, we're not, uh, we're not gonna, we're. We're about setting the example of 100% honesty at the get go, which then in turn is to their success. Ryan Jarrell: Pardon? I said I didn't know if Burning Tree would've been for me. Man. I, I'm with you a hundred percent. I know it would've saved my life, but I don't know if I could've quit smoking. Ryan Jarrell: That's something Well, [00:46:00] you, you evidently Eric Button: need, you didn't need burning trees. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. That's true. What about caffeine? You put caffeine in the coffee, so Eric Button: we do. So we do have caffeine. Yes. Oh, nice. Okay. Graham Doerge: Well, little, yeah, a little, you know, lean a lot. Lean a lot. Eric Button: Don't, you can't, can't drink caffeine till, till bedtime. Eric Button: But yes, we have caffeine. Yeah. And transition process is completely nicotine free. Wow. Which adds to success. Graham Doerge: Yeah, it does. Yep. That's, and we're, Eric Button: we're not afraid that it's going to affect a client coming to us because we're not allowing 'em to smoke. We're just not. We're, we're not, we're not, we're invested in 100% success and we want to do, yeah, I think that's, Graham Doerge: there's so much. Graham Doerge: Yeah, it says so much about, you know, you guys as a program, your ethics, you know, really kind of standing behind what, what you kind of, uh, [00:47:00] are set forward as your, as your mission. And, uh, because most programs do allow, quite frankly, because, you know, people won't admit. You know, in a lot of cases if you can't smoke at a facility, so obviously you guys are creating a barrier there, but it's important to you a higher success rate, better outcomes. Graham Doerge: Um, so that's, that's amazing. I think that says a lot about kind of what you guys were doing in general. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. And how invested you are in, in truly making people well as opposed to just getting heads and beds down at the ranch over there, you know? Correct. Um, because it would be so easy to fold on that. Ryan Jarrell: But the clients that you guys are dealing with, they have to know that there are natural consequences and that there are, I. Lines in the sand and there are rules that you just have to follow in life, you know? Yeah. And it's something that I was so resistant to learning, and so many of us, we just naturally chomp at the bit to be told. Ryan Jarrell: No, I mean, do you remember how much energy you would invest to not be told No. In something? Mm-hmm. You know, Eric Button: well, we, we like, we like flipping the verbiage. I really [00:48:00] like using the, um, the verbiage of this is something I get to do. Hmm. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Instead of no, of op opportunity as well. Right. And opportunity Eric Button: and, and it's all, it's all about the culture Graham Doerge: and a shift in perspective, right? Graham Doerge: When you kind of make that little bit of a shift, you're like, ah, okay, this is, that is a little bit of a different connotation. Yeah. So, But, um, well, listen, Eric, we're, we're coming up on our time and, and yeah. You know, it's been such a pleasure getting to, uh, see you and, and we haven't connected in a while, but I'm actually back in Texas, uh, next week, so we'll have to, we'll have to connect. Graham Doerge: Are you, but do you have lunch? Anything that, yeah, let's have lunch, but would you, is there anything that you wanna plug here? Uh, maybe Burning Tree's website or anything like that? Eric Button: I mean, just, just burning tree.com. But, but what I, what I really want to ask is, um, You, Graham, and I really like the, uh, the name New Waters. Eric Button: Thank you. And [00:49:00] the, and the, the, the, the, the message that it puts out then there in the universe. Yeah. How did, how did New Waters, how did it come to Yes, please. So that was Graham Doerge: really my wife and I, um, really just kind of brainstorming when we were kind of creating the program. And, and, uh, and I, I think it probably actually was my wife who came up with it. Graham Doerge: Uh, she's, she's really good at that, that kind of stuff. And, and I, when I heard it, I was like, Ooh, I like that. Um, but we were just really kind of floating ideas and, and just the idea of, you know, water I think is, uh, is a very kind of powerful energy and, and, you know, is an important energy in my life. I'm a Pisces. Graham Doerge: I love the water, I love free diving. I love. Spearfishing, I love fly fishing. Um, so, you know, I really wanted to have a, a water aspect in it. And then just the aspect of, of, you know, finding new waters, finding new waterways and, and a new life recovery and all of that [00:50:00] aspect of it kind of fit well. So it was, it was good. Graham Doerge: It fit and, and we're doing great here and it's been a really fun project to, to get off the ground. Eric Button: And then how, how did you come about. New waters is in North Carolina. How'd you come about finding your location? Graham Doerge: So we, there was a couple gentlemen here that I really knew that I could build something around. Graham Doerge: Um, and knowing that I would kind of be back and forth from Texas to Carolina. Um, so, you know, really, and, and looking at, you know, the market and obviously Raleigh is an incredible city to, to have a business right now. It's, it's blowing up, you know, very similar to, to Austin in a lot of ways. Right? It almost reminds me of Austin kind of 10 years ago. Graham Doerge: Right. Um, and tons of industry, you know, coming to Raleigh and, um, so, you know, there was, there was just a lot of really positive reasons to do something here. And coupled with the fact that they needed resources, right? There wasn't really anything like what we're doing here, um, at this kind of [00:51:00] higher level, uh, kind of smaller boutique, but really, you know, sophisticated detox. Graham Doerge: Um, so the opportunity was great and we had the, the team was here and, and we just kind of, we went for it and, uh, it's been great. Eric Button: Well, I'm excited to hear about how you came up with the name and the location, and I'm really honored to, uh, to, uh, meet you both on your show. And, uh, thank you ma'am. Thank you for having me. Graham Doerge: I'm honored. Fantastic. I know we're honored to have you and always great to connect with you man, and see your conferences. Yeah. And, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, dapper in your orange and orangey. Grateful. Eric Button: There you go. Awesome. There you go. Hashtag long term works. You got Graham Doerge: term, long term works. So if anybody wants to find Burning Tree Recovery, burning Tree Lodge, it's uh, burning Tree, uh, recovery.com. Graham Doerge: Yeah, Eric Button: ree.com and or burning tree programs.com. Um, and then 8 6 [00:52:00] 6 2 8 7 2 8 7 7. Graham Doerge: Fantastic. Alright, thanks so much Eric. We'll talk soon. Thanks Eric. Have a great day. Bye. Show Notes In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. Eric Button talks candidly about the unique 12-step program at Burning Tree Ranch, explaining its focus on full engagement and ongoing care. He emphasizes the critical role of family support in the rehabilitation journey and offers insights into the facility's policies, including its status as a nicotine-free environment. Graham Doerge offers a glimpse into his North Carolina-based program, New Waters, highlighting its boutique and specialized approach to detox and recovery. Both guests discuss the importance of implementing rules and natural consequences, as well as the positive impact of a culture built on uplifting language. The episode also provides practical information for those interested in learning more about either facility. Whether you're a recovery professional, a family member of someone struggling with addiction, or someone on their own journey to sobriety, this episode offers invaluable insights into the evolving landscape of addiction recovery. Tune in to learn why "long-term works" when it comes to beating addiction for good. 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Dr. Hong, Justin McLendon, and Sheila Maitland discuss experiential therapy for addiction and codependency. They highlight the importance of self-care for family members and provide insights on supporting those struggling with self-medication. < Back to Episodes Sheila Maitland Understand Love & Self Medicating 46:56 min | Sheila Maitland | Finding New Waters In this podcast episode, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McLendon are joined by Sheila Maitland, the leader of the Relationship Enrichment Center and Experiential Therapy Center in Matthews, North Carolina, to discuss love and self-medicating. Sheila shares about her private practice, which provides a continuum of care for addiction and codependency, and how they use experiential therapy to invite people into action. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "I am a recovering addict myself, but if someone had told me 30 years ago when I got into recovery, I would have wanted to fight about the name as opposed to look at whether I was maybe doing some things or as having some consequences because of my drinking." Sheila Maitland Podcast Transcript Sheila Maitland | Love & Self Medicating Dr. Harold Hong: [00:00:00] Well thank you for joining us, everyone. Today we have Sheila Maitland, the leader of the relationship in Richmond Center and Experiential Therapy Center in Matthews, North Carolina, just outside of Charlotte. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us, Sheila. Thanks Shiela Maitland: for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And we also have Justin McLendon executive Director here at New Waters Recovery. Thanks for joining us, Justin. Absolutely. Glad to be here. Okay. . So today we want to talk about love and self-medicating. Hmm. And Sheila, can you tell us, before we begin, tell us a little bit about Relationship Enrichment Center and what, what kind of work you do there? Shiela Maitland: I would be glad to. The Relationship Enrichment Center is a private practice, it's a group practice. We have eight clinicians and we provide a continuum of care. We work with. Addiction, but we also work heavily with codependency, and so [00:01:00] often it is the family member doing the work, trying to find something for their loved one, and they're the ones that need so much assistance and they really can make a difference. Their willingness. Mm-hmm. . We're an experiential practice, which means when we work with people, we invite them into action. And when I try to describe. , what that means. It's a little bit like I could show you a picture of the ocean. I could let you listen to the ocean and I could tell you about the ocean. But until you stand in it, taste the salt water, feel the power of it. It's, and I think that's such a great metaphor to what experiential therapy is. . We also work with [00:02:00] individuals, couples, families, groups, and we do workshops. So we do many things and I also, we work with a lot of professionals in Becoming licensed and training. Mm-hmm. , experientially. Mm-hmm. . Dr. Harold Hong: You do it all. Shiela Maitland: You do it all. . It's probably more than you wanted, but yeah, that's, no, I love, it's what we do. I think Dr. Harold Hong: it's really important for people to know Yeah. That there are places like the R E C where they can get help. Yeah. So here at New Waters, we help a lot of individuals who are in marital distress. Yeah. , their, the, the marriage is on the rocks and part of how they got here is they got kicked out. Yeah. And so I think for, for the benefit of the many people out there, cuz this is way more common Yeah. Than we would, we would want it to be. So if you could maybe think about a, a client or a story where, where you were involved in assisting [00:03:00] and just if you could tell us about how you worked with them and, and how they wound. at your doorstep. Shiela Maitland: Hmm. . Okay. So often we'll get a call from someone that's calling about someone. Mm-hmm. . In fact, I have a couple people that I'm seeing next week that are trying to. Support their adult child or a spouse and they wanna make sure that there's a session set up for that person. . And while that's amazing and yes, we want to help that person, I would prefer to work with that set of parents or that partner first. Mm-hmm. , because it is so the, so often the family is experiencing their own P T S D, their [00:04:00] own walking traumatic experience of. , are they gonna make it this time or not? Mm-hmm. And trying to help them with beginning some self care for themselves that that is such a powerful way to support whoever is in treatment or in trouble or off the rails. Yeah, it's a little bit. , we need to put our own oxygen mask on first and let's make sure we're sucking oxygen. Mm-hmm. not more crazy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: What are some of the traumas that, that are going on that there I can't handle anymore? I need to call for help. . Shiela Maitland: Well, it can certainly be the obvious ones, like a DUI or some type of huge financial [00:05:00] betrayal that's come out, or some humiliating or embarrassing public event. It could also be some infidelity. All the things that happen when too much too many spirits or. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. The consequences of a car accident. The consequences of yeah. Doing something that one shouldn't do that often is present with drinking and drugging. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Do you feel like these are sometimes these events that you're mentioning, do you feel like these are sometimes kind of like the catalyst that leads to the, the reaching out for help, that maybe there's a pattern that's been going on for a while and then there's kind of. a major event or a precipitating event that takes place? Shiela Maitland: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. . And when I get to work with that family member, I get to hear something about the backstory, because usually [00:06:00] to your question about the tr the trauma, it might be that this is a repeat of someone. Family of origin from 30 years ago, like the couple where the wife calls her husband is struggling with addiction and she doesn't know what to do. And when she comes in and begins to unpack some of her story, of course she was raised in a family where there was addiction. And so the trauma of hmm. The repetition, the participating with somebody who's not really there. They might be there in body, but. Because of the inebriation, because of the lying, [00:07:00] because of all of the manifestation of active using, it's triggering something. Hmm. Something obvious to an outsider and to a professional, but to the client or the wife. In this example, she can't connect those dots. Mm-hmm. , because she's right in it. She's in some paralysis. Right. Why? Wow. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: So in this story, the wife called you? Yeah. To. the guy, right? And what's her? And she has no awareness of her own right? Her own piece of it, Shiela Maitland: right? Dr. Harold Hong: So what happens when she sits down? How do you get her in the door? Shiela Maitland: Well, that's when, when she gets in the door, we've got some hope. Because so often it's like, no, no, no, no. He's the one. He's the problem. He's the one that needs to [00:08:00] be here and trying to. , acknowledge and really listen to her and her belief, and also suggest that we can also help her. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's, I wish it were easier . Sure, yeah. But when she does come through the door, . Hopefully she'll feel seen and heard. Really good therapy starts with feeling seen and heard and creating lots of emotional safety with whoever she's working with, whether it's me or one of my staff, and being able to address what is right on top. and so trying to help provide resources. This might be the only [00:09:00] session the wife ever comes to. Mm-hmm. . And so making sure she's got really good information and hopefully she'll be curious and feel safe enough to come back. Mm-hmm. . Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Wow. How do they respond? Like when you suggest or you, you get curious about them? All they want to do is talk about the other person. Shiela Maitland: Well, often they're in tears because they are so used to. Micromanaging mood managing, covering, enabling, making sure it looks good on the outside despite how fractured this person might feel on the inside, and so just inviting them to try to take a deep breath and [00:10:00] inhibit or inhabit their bodies for just a few minutes. you know? What is it like for you? It's, I've had people say many times, no one ever asks me that. Wow. Or I don't really even know. I don't know how I am. Mm-hmm. , which I understand and relate to. Sure. And. Justin Mclendon: so that they're so caught up in that, in that pattern, in that cycle. They're just not stopping long enough to pay attention to their self, I guess. Right. Shiela Maitland: Well, exactly, and that's the part that's so challenging to intervene on. Mm-hmm. , the illness being so sophisticated that it's certainly got the husband inebriated and doing whatever he's doing, but now the wife. [00:11:00] is also so impacted by the illness that she has an illness too. Mm-hmm. and the. , part of its presentation of course, is denial. Sure. That is sophisticated. That's a complicated thing to try and . Yeah. Like I can't explain it. , you know, Dr. Harold Hong: so they're coming to you cuz there's a problem. Right? But they're gonna deny right that there's a problem. Shiela Maitland: Well, they might be okay with it being a problem for their partner, right? Mm-hmm. . , but to try to talk about ways that they're possibly supporting the illness. Yeah, like I love, I love when I get to help somebody separate their love for the person [00:12:00] you can love. Your man and hate their illness. Mm-hmm. be angry at what their I, their husband's illness is taking from them, from the family. Yeah. And that we as humans have the capacity to have both those things going on at the same time. And it's not disloyal. to be loving the person and very mad. Mm-hmm. at what's happening. Same way one would feel if someone had cancer. Yep. Mm-hmm. , you know, I love this person and I hate their illness. Mm-hmm. . . Justin Mclendon: Yeah. I love the way you kind of separate those two things because I think, you know, especially those of us that you know, work in this field and understand that disease, it, it is, it really is two separate kind of entities, right. In that person, you know, their brain, [00:13:00] and I won't get too much into that, but becomes hijacked and they're, they're not right who they are on the inside. Right? Right. Shiela Maitland: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, absolutely. . Justin Mclendon: It's true. Dr. Harold Hong: So sometimes you use the word you, you don't. I know from previous conversations you don't like the word addict or addiction but you use the word medicate. Yeah. What's, tell us what is a medicator? Shiela Maitland: So, a medicator is anything that is numbing me or blocking me. . So a number could be the Dairy Queen. Hmm. The number could be the six hours of Netflix that I love watching. The number could be my obsession with my business. Hmm. And I think what. the distinction between when is it a thing and when is it a medicator or a number [00:14:00] is when are there consequences? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , am I having consequences because I can't stop watching whatever Netflix. Yeah. Am I having consequences with my health because I'm not putting healthy food in my body and. I really prefer talking about medicators numbers and even invaders because so often the things that keep us from addressing what we need to address are certainly valid. So an invader to someone's couple ship could be a newborn baby. , and that's a beautiful thing, but it makes it really hard for the couple to spend time together when there's a newborn in the house, right? Yeah, absolutely. The other thing about the word addict is [00:15:00] there's a lot of assumption. It's one thing if I want to share, and I do that, I'm a recovering addict myself, but if someone had told me, 30 years ago when I got into recovery, I would have wanted to fight about the name as opposed to look at whether I was maybe doing some things or as having some consequences because of my drinking. Mm-hmm. , Dr. Harold Hong: so you're saying I, I'm not an alcoholic. I fell, or Shiela Maitland: Oh, I tripped. Yeah. I didn't eat enough before going out. You didn't study? That was my favorite one. Yeah. Didn't have enough to eat. Yeah. Right. That was not true. , Dr. Harold Hong: that was not true. You hinted that like when, when someone's spending a lot of time in a medicated state. Yeah. They're, [00:16:00] they're not connected with reality. Yeah. They're, they're not connecting with their partner. Right. So like, what is it like to. in a relationship and in couples therapy when a medicator is still burning wild in someone's life, Shiela Maitland: the word that comes to mind is crazy making because it's a little bit like one minute the person's there and then without any hint, rhyme, or reason, they're not there anymore. Yeah. Like the veil drops and what I think is so difficult for the partner is, to not make it about them. Like, where'd you go? What did I do? What did I do wrong? Why did you use again? Did you use again? Yeah. I don't trust my [00:17:00] own experience of knowing the signs and symptoms, and I don't have the skill to speak about. What I want or need, and I make this mistake of talking to the person while they're inebriated, right. Or high or checked out and then get incensed when the next day they don't remember the conversation. Mm-hmm. like, like they're in a blackout. Wow. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So there are people who are trying to have a real relationship with someone. . Yeah. It, it's just not working. Yeah. They, they wake up the next morning and, and they don't remember the whole conversation they had the day before. Shiela Maitland: Yeah. Justin Mclendon: And how frustrating that must be for that. The, the family member, right. You know, to trying to connect or trying to, you know you know, discuss an issue or whatever it is, and then to have, [00:18:00] you know, that be the outcome, right? To feel like, oh, you're not listening to me. You don't care. I can only imagine, right? Mm-hmm. Shiela Maitland: well, again, think that that speaks to the sophistication of the illness. Mm-hmm. , if I'm trying to connect with somebody who's not there, sure there's something possibly wrong with me. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And then when they're not there, when I implode on myself, like I did something wrong, I must. Caused this. Mm-hmm. or they must not like me. Mm. Like, that's kind of like, I would have to be, have some degree of compromised thinking as well, because if somebody on the street ignored me, and I was trying to talk to them. Mm-hmm. , there would be a point at which [00:19:00] I would stop trying mm-hmm. , right? Or if an employee or an employer, that's always such a great test, you know, like, mm-hmm. what if this were my best friend and I was really trying to connect, act, and they weren't there, and then the next day. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. It's, it's like a totally different set of rules, right? That people Shiela Maitland: are living by. Right? This is a family illness. Mm-hmm. , there's no bypass. This does not just happen to one. The lowest common denominator in medicating and addiction is two. There has to be two people. Even if I'm living under a bridge and I. Walking to the liquor store, somebody's gotta sell the liquor to me. . Right, right. [00:20:00] That's such a desperate analogy, but it is not, there has to be at least two people for this to continue. That's interesting. Wow. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Very interesting. So here at Noirs we say where there's addiction, there's trauma. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And now we can also say there's a relationship Yeah. That's sustaining it. Yeah. In some form or another. So how, how do, how do couples get help? How, how do you tackle? Yeah. It sounds like what a puzzle. Shiela Maitland: Well, I think it really helps to talk to somebody that knows more than they do. So that could be a family member, usually not , but it could be somebody that's willing and able to [00:21:00] share their experience, strength, and hope it can. The field has changed. and the access to information about how to get help is so much greater than it used to be. In addition to the lowest common denominator being too, I think at the root of addiction and co addiction or families being in this. a level of dishonesty. And so how they go about asking for help from somebody that knows more than they do. If I were worried that I had cancer, I would not go ask my accountant. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. , [00:22:00] that's a good point. Mm-hmm. , Shiela Maitland: I would not ask my mom if she thought I had cancer. , right? Because she would, well, she would get me to the doctor, but , so I think trying to talk to somebody or read something. I mean, if you Google. There, there are thousands of ways to access help. And of course you could call New Waters True. Yeah. . I mean, there's just so many people that are really wanting, willing and ready to share how to get some support and. . Mm-hmm. . In fact, one of the principles in recovery is this statement that together we can do what I could never do [00:23:00] alone. Which is, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But I think a lot of people wrestle with shame, of course. And they're so embarrassed to even asking a stranger for help is, I know. humiliating to them. I know. And they can't bring themselves to pick up their phone. Where do you think that comes from? And like what, what could people, how can people deal with that? Shiela Maitland: Well, I agree and I think where it comes from, There's a lot of places that it comes from. I think in my own family of origin, cuz I come from a family that's also my parents are both alcoholic and they're in recovery and have 45 years, which was so profound with how I was able to find [00:24:00] recovery. in my twenties rather than in my forties like they did. And I think in my family of origin being rewarded for being independent and being a problem solver, I felt, I remember feeling like I got a promotion. Like, like, I don't need help and why? You know, like that was so and I don't think anybody was trying to hurt me or harm me, but I think it was a byproduct of, I just got a lot of kudos for being so. Creative, so mature for my age. She never needs anything. She just does her homework. Like all these great things. And I think for me, [00:25:00] that certainly fostered a difficulty in whether it's asking for help or just being more truthful, you know? Cause when, if I did ask for help, I could say, I could sort of talk my way out of. receiving any help. Mm-hmm. , right? Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But you said something about being pretty independent, like Yeah. But that's the, the sunny side of neglect from the way that I'm hearing it, and I see that with the relationship. Yeah. The being, being in a relationship with someone who's gonna spend the next 24 hours inebriated. Yeah. Right. This is the kind of person who's, who's normalized being alone. Yeah. Who's normalized not getting help and being celebrated for not needing help. Mm-hmm. . Shiela Maitland: Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: And then I think there [00:26:00] probably becomes this part of, I mean, similar to what you were saying is that, you know, if that's, if we're getting praised for that, if we feel. you know, that that's important, that we have all the answers, that we don't need help from other people. Then I think just this sheer asking for help or reaching out as this admitting that we are less than, we're not capable. And that feels a lot like shame, right? Is that like, well, there's something wrong with me. I'm broken, can't do these things for myself if I, if I have to reach out for someone. Exactly. Shiela Maitland: Yeah. I think that most of the people that I work with, So capable to do alone. And sometimes I'll even say that you've got that part down right? And what I wanna help you with is connection, because that's how we get better. And I think that. the age of information. While it's great, I think it is also really [00:27:00] isolating and only adds to the difficulty of asking for help. Mm-hmm. , because I can look at Facebook and not do anything on Facebook and feel bad. You know, it's just, for some of us, it's sort of inherent that it's a comparison. Mm-hmm. totally. And yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: I, I know a lot of people have waves of shame. Yeah. As they're scrolling through, seeing how other people are doing things that they're not doing. Yeah. Have things that they don't have. Yeah. And they feel so low. Yeah. It it, and we've all been there . Right, right. So shame is, is everywhere. Everywhere. We all wrestle with. And some of us, through our recovery and our work, we figure out a way to deal with it in a healthy way. In your, in your practice when you're working with clients, is there any experiential Hmm. [00:28:00] Exercise that they can do to think about or practice? Yeah. Getting rid of this, this toxic shame or dealing with it in some way. Shiela Maitland: I'm pausing with how I wanna answer that because you can't do this in your bedroom by yourself, right? I mean, you can try, but I don't think it's gonna work. But one of the ways that we will often simulate or experientially show is talking about the shameful events. Like naming a couple of shameful events that have maybe happened in somebody's life and being able to place that on a scarf so that it's externalized, it's off the person, but then out on the floor and.[00:29:00] Being able to look at it from some different perspectives, and then possibly if it's a group, if this were in a group process, maybe having a role player in role as the client so that the client can see themselves with all this shame on them. Mm-hmm. . and then having them reverse roles, like putting it on the client. There's other ways. And then of course the, the healing about, you know, I want to take this off, or I can't believe this feels so heavy. Building a picture of one's shame so that they can get it off of them. , the very act of sharing what is so [00:30:00] shameful Yeah. Is how we rewire the nervous system. If I've been secretly feeling bad, shameful, and embarrassed about the things that I did when I drank. Hmm. To be able to take that off, to take the secret out of the vault. The vault being me. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And to have other people acknowledge to validate not to give advice. , but to connect it is the experience of feeling seen and heard that rewires a different neuro pathway in the body. And what am I, what am I saying about that? I don't have to spin out in my familiar shame spiral that. I'm a this or [00:31:00] I'm a, that. When I take the risk, when a client takes the risk and is guided into some shame, reduction or taking the, the heaviness of shame off of them and then hearing other people say that they. could connect to that story. That's where the rewiring, the, the being seen and heard and I, and loved really is what's happening. That that's where the reheal happens. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I hear you saying that shame is kind of, This is just my summary, if you will, but shame is isolating and maybe we could define it as disconnection. And then it sounds, totally, sounds like the healing from that is fostering the connection. Right. Shiela Maitland: Yeah. We should have just asked you Justin , that was much shorter. Yes, of [00:32:00] course. Just making Justin Mclendon: sure that I'm understanding it. You've got it. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But I couldn't agree. But every warring piece is so powerful, Sheila, because I mean it's, it, it stirred up a lot of stuff for me as I was hearing you talk about it. I, I, I had my own powerful recovery experience in experiential group therapy. And you, I, I can remember you know, feeling lots of shame growing up in, in a very perfectionistic Yeah. Kind of. You need to figure all of this out on your own, and if you can't do it, what's wrong with you? Like, this is kind of the story, right? Like, there's something wrong with you if you can't figure it out on your own. Mm-hmm. and. My, my, my gut tells me when I'm feeling shame, I just need to carry it by myself. Right. And fight through it. And, and if I can't fight through it, then it's my problem. But surprise that it leads to burnout and you just get completely fried and you're, you have no energy left to, to keep fighting. But what you're saying [00:33:00] it sounds like people find a. to feel shame and then they know how to Yeah, be free of it. Yeah. But it's, it's through connection Exactly. With other people. Shiela Maitland: Mm-hmm. , and it starts in an individual process, meaning that that client might see a therapist individually, they might go to group. And be able to do work in group. That's really healing. And it's usually after that that it, they have enough skill and enough knowledge of themselves to be able to teach their partner and even share with their partner. Like imagine. So I'm going along with my partner. and I've had no [00:34:00] therapy treatment or awareness, and something happens and I'm triggered and I'm having a shame response. So I'm sitting in the car. Mm-hmm. for six hours. I haven't said a word and I'm crazy. I'm absolutely unreachable. Mm. . I start doing my work. I start going to therapy. I start realizing that I'm not terminally unique, that others also heal from shame. and many other things, and I begin to give myself a little bit of bandwidth, A little bit of a break, I start to have a relationship with myself so that I'm not so bad, [00:35:00] wrong, horrible, blah, blah, blah. I start to experience that in a safe healing circle and I begin to acquire some skills to where I might say on that drive after I've been triggered. Could we please stop? I wanna get some water. Hmm. be able to get a little bit of a break and maybe say, I'm having this huge reaction, you didn't cause it, and I'm kind of in a dark place right now. Mm-hmm. , would you hold my hand? Like, my partner doesn't have to know anything. He doesn't have to know how to fix me, how to take care of me. I've made a request. He knows really, really well how to hold my hand. Mm-hmm. , this is [00:36:00] me being much more able to be responsible for what's happening for me and my partner. Didn't cause it. Can't control it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It. It becomes what I'm learning about myself and for myself starts to flourish in my relationships with my partner, with my children, with my parents, with the people that I work with. I become more of a citizen, citizen of the world. Yeah. I love Dr. Harold Hong: that. Yeah. Very cool. . I, I just love the direction you're taking here, Sheila, cuz it's so often in, in this business of addiction, recovery and, and, and treatment. We focus so much on the person with the diagnosis. Yeah. Right. But their loved one is [00:37:00] really hurting. Yeah. They're, they're really beat up Shiela Maitland: too. Well, they're probably, Not gonna wrap their car around a tree, but death by a thousand paper cuts is excruciating. Right. And it's the, the symptomology is slower and it's, I sometimes refer to it as it's mild misery. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , but then it. Heavier and heavier. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, the conversation started with like, how do we get the non medicating partner to help the medicating partner? But a lot of times they're, they, they come to you asking for help, but that's actually a sign of, of how depleted they are. Yeah. Right. And so [00:38:00] sometimes the best way to. that other person is exactly what you said is you, you gotta put your oxygen mask on first. Exactly. Need needing to be healthy and have strength and vitality if, if you have any chance at helping your loved one get there themselves too. Shiela Maitland: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I'm always amazed at what better way to. support your partner or your loved one than by modeling? Yeah. You know, if I do the very thing I want my partner to do, chances are they're more likely to do it . Right, right. I don't know why that's so hard for some of us. Uhhuh. . Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people think of this. They think of addiction and self-medicating as something you have to. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Stop drinking. Mm-hmm. , stop using, [00:39:00] stop getting high. Yeah. It's, it's easy. Yeah. Why do you keep doing this? Right? What's wrong with you? Yeah. But what you're, what you're saying is love yourself. Nurture yourself. Yeah. Pay attention to yourself. Shiela Maitland: Well, and I would also say if you are using and medicating. try stopping for 90 days and just see if some of the craziness softens. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , like, it's usually, it's my belief that if someone is in trouble with medicating, it's exacerbating the disconnection of their life. Mm-hmm. and. to try it as an experiment and see if it gets any better. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You know what, just something that [00:40:00] came up when you were saying that is that you know, I think. . A lot of times we think of this as people see it as the problem. Like Dr. Hong said that it's something that we have to stop. Yeah. But, you know, I think for a lot of people that that has become maybe the solution for, you know, maybe this other forms of disconnection and you know, just just not feeling well. Whatever this, this Dysfunction that's happening internally and in our lives, that, that, you know, at some point we have consciously or unconsciously like reached to the drink or the drug or whatever that, that, that medication is as the solution, if you will. So I'm wondering, just thinking about that, that experiment there. Like, so if I was a substance abuser and I decided I'm just gonna stop for, for 90 days, I wonder what sometimes that looks like when we're able to look at like those other areas of our life that are maybe we. Masking or, or coping with, with that alcohol or other drugs. Right, right. Yeah. That's gotta be pretty tough, I would imagine It's Dr. Harold Hong: scary. Shiela Maitland: Scary. Well, and I think that's so powerfully why, like when the focus isn't on [00:41:00] just removing the substance. Mm-hmm. , it switches to then how do you live? Right. How do you live without this? Mm-hmm. . And how do you learn how to recognize your feelings? Because of course, the anesthesia, the, the numbing mm-hmm. cuts the feeling. So how do you identify what it is, and then what do you, what is that informing what you. . Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's very interesting. Wow. Well, Sheila, it is so painful to deal with not paying attention to yourself, like the, the misery, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just incredible like, to, to make it so simple that a, pay attention to yourself and, and work with someone who knows how to guide you. Yeah. In reviving this art of taking care of. . [00:42:00] So but how do you, if, for the people out there who are listening, who, who might not know how to find a good professional to help him with this, like, what's your advice on how to find a good person to work with? Mm-hmm. Shiela Maitland: it's my, it's my belief that if a, a client. Can ask the therapist or whoever they're considering. Well, like we could go to psychology today.com. Mm-hmm. , and just start there. Yeah. And in vetting, who is the fit for you? I think as a consumer, any person that's considering coming to therapy, if they're not able to read a bio or get a sense for somebody by looking at their website or [00:43:00] looking at their profile. Mm-hmm. and, and their gut is saying no. Mm-hmm. to trust that. Mm-hmm. . I think asking somebody that is pleased with the therapist they're seeing. That's a great way to find somebody I think. Reading Google reviews. I think having a 15 minute consultation with somebody to see if it feels safe for you to then go and see that person. Yeah, I think that's really reasonable and I think as a consumer, Someone isn't able to advocate for themself with a particular person, that that's information enough that they should keep looking. Mm-hmm. , that would be my encouragement. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Well, if, if I may be support, I would, I would [00:44:00] wholeheartedly recommend. people reach out to relationship and Richmond Center. Mm-hmm. Sheila, I know you do incredible work with the clients that are lucky enough to connect with you and Mm. I think the safety piece is what's so wonderful about the rac safety is the first thing. Yeah. Right? Like this is a safe place there. You can share your shame. Yeah. In safety. , you can, this is a place where you can learn how to be free of that misery. So we, we will have your, your contact information in, in the notes. Thank you. In the show you. But you know, I know that Justin, now we, we are fortunate enough to see this all the time here is people who come in carrying unbelievable weights. Yeah. Unbelievable emotional baggage. Yes. And. , they, for the first time get a sense of the, the freedom and the lightness. Yeah. That comes from [00:45:00] finding a new way to go. Absolutely. Letting go of that shame. Mm-hmm. And having the energy to find a new way to live again. . So this is, it's possible . It's a, it's a great thing that we, it's a great way to wake up in the morning and know, Hey, I'm gonna go do that thing today. Yeah. Shiela Maitland: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you Dr. Hong. I really appreciate it, and thank you, Justin. Absolutely. This has been fabulous. Great job to you. You're welcome. Show Notes In this podcast episode, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McLendon are joined by Sheila Maitland, the leader of the Relationship Enrichment Center and Experiential Therapy Center in Matthews, North Carolina, to discuss love and self-medicating. Sheila shares about her private practice, which provides a continuum of care for addiction and codependency, and how they use experiential therapy to invite people into action. The conversation delves into how often family members are the ones seeking help for their loved ones, but they themselves need assistance to deal with their own walking traumatic experiences. They emphasize the importance of self-care and putting on one's own oxygen mask first to effectively support those in treatment or in trouble. If you're interested in learning more about love and self-medicating and how to get help, tune in to this insightful podcast episode. Shiela Maitland Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/ (https://www.instagram.com/relationship_enrichment_center/) Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheila-maitland-lcmhcs-csat-09154254/) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/ (https://www.facebook.com/relationshipenrichmentcenter/) Website: https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com (https://www.relationshipenrichmentcenter.com)

In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. < Back to Episodes Recovery, Boundaries, and a Sense of Humor: Roxanne McDonald’s Approach 30:24 min | Roxanne McDonald | Finding New Waters In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. With over two decades of experience in the recovery field—and 24 years of continuous sobriety—Roxanne brings humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom to every conversation. She shares how laughter has become a bridge to healing in her coaching work, especially when addressing complex issues like ADHD, substance use, and family dynamics. From her time working in jails and treatment centers to her private practice today, Roxanne offers practical insights into boundaries, emotional regulation, and how families can support recovery without enabling. Subscribe “Whether you’re sober curious or deep in recovery, the goal is to create a life worth staying sober for.” – Roxanne McDonald Show Notes In this powerful and refreshingly honest episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Roxanne McDonald, a recovery coach, family coach, interventionist, and founder of Recovery Resiliency Services. With over two decades of experience in the recovery field—and 24 years of continuous sobriety—Roxanne brings humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom to every conversation. She shares how laughter has become a bridge to healing in her coaching work, especially when addressing complex issues like ADHD, substance use, and family dynamics. From her time working in jails and treatment centers to her private practice today, Roxanne offers practical insights into boundaries, emotional regulation, and how families can support recovery without enabling. ⸻ Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Roxanne McDonald and learn how humor plays into healing • [03:00] Recovery Coaching vs. Therapy – What makes coaching unique and highly effective • [07:00] The Link Between ADHD & Addiction – Why it’s often overlooked and misunderstood • [12:00] Supporting Families – Boundaries, communication, and reclaiming your life • [18:00] Roxanne’s Journey Through Recovery – From addiction to advocate to entrepreneur • [24:00] Why Humor Works in Recovery – Comedy as a tool to build connection and reduce shame • [30:00] Advice for Parents & Loved Ones – The small things that make a big difference • [35:00] How to Connect – Working with Roxanne, online or in-person ⸻ Key Points Discussed: 1. Lived Experience Matters – Why being in recovery herself makes Roxanne’s coaching deeply effective 2. Working with Dual Diagnosis Clients – The importance of recognizing co-occurring conditions like ADHD 3. The Role of the Family – How family coaching rebuilds trust and promotes healthy boundaries 4. Humor as a Healing Tool – How laughter helps reduce resistance, stigma, and shame in recovery conversations 5. Rebuilding Lives Together – Creating environments where both individuals and families can thrive ⸻ Guest Bio: Roxanne McDonald, CADC-R, NCRC-II, NCIP-I Recovery Coach, Family Coach, Interventionist, Former Drug & Alcohol Counselor Roxanne McDonald is the founder of Recovery Resiliency Services, with over 24 years of personal sobriety and professional experience helping individuals and families affected by substance use disorder. She is a certified recovery coach, interventionist, former drug and alcohol counselor, and former Guardian ad Litem for the North Carolina court system. Roxanne specializes in working with high-risk, dual-diagnosis clients and their families—supporting them through coaching, case management, and recovery-focused comedy events. Her approach blends motivational interviewing, active listening, and an ability to break down walls using compassion and laughter. 📞 Call: (704) 292-8309 🌐 Website: https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com(https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com/) 🌐 Recovery Resiliency Services: https://www.recoveryresiliency.com(https://www.recoveryresiliency.com/) ⸻ Resources Mentioned: • RoxanneRecoveryCoach.com: https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com(https://www.roxannerecoverycoach.com/) • Recovery Resiliency Website: https://www.recoveryresiliency.com(https://www.recoveryresiliency.com/) • 12-Step Meeting Finder: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) • Circle of Security Parenting: https://circleofsecurityinternational.com(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) ⸻ Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ⸻ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #RoxanneMcDonald #RecoveryResiliency #RecoveryCoaching #ADHDandAddiction #FamilySupport #RecoveryComedy #FindingNewWatersPodcast ⸻ Powerful Quote: “Whether you’re sober curious or deep in recovery, the goal is to create a life worth staying sober for.” – Roxanne McDonald