Search Results

In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Landahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. < Back to Episodes Navigating High-Performance Pressure: Maren Londahl-Smidt on Athletes, Money & Mental Health 39:05 min | Maren Londahl-Smidt | Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Londahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. Maren shares her insights on how high-achieving individuals navigate identity, financial struggles, and transitions—especially when their careers take unexpected turns. From addiction to financial mismanagement, she explains how stress and pressure can push people toward unhealthy coping mechanisms. She also highlights the importance of financial literacy, emotional regulation, and preparing for the inevitable career transition that many athletes and professionals face. Subscribe "Find somebody you trust and don’t do it alone—building the right support system is everything." – Maren Londahl-Smidt Show Notes In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Londahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. Maren shares her insights on how high-achieving individuals navigate identity, financial struggles, and transitions—especially when their careers take unexpected turns. From addiction to financial mismanagement, she explains how stress and pressure can push people toward unhealthy coping mechanisms. She also highlights the importance of financial literacy, emotional regulation, and preparing for the inevitable career transition that many athletes and professionals face. --- ### **Timestamps:** - **[00:00] Introduction**: Meet Maren Londahl-Smidt and her work in therapy and coaching. - **[02:00] The Pressure of Elite Performance**: Understanding the mental health challenges of athletes and entrepreneurs. - **[06:00] Identity & Career Transitions**: What happens when athletes retire or face setbacks? - **[10:00] Financial Pitfalls**: Why so many athletes struggle with money after success. - **[14:00] Addiction & High Performers**: How the drive for success can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms. - **[18:00] NIL & College Athletes**: The mental and financial impact of young athletes earning money. - **[23:00] Finding Purpose After Sports**: How to build a fulfilling life beyond competition. - **[28:00] Workaholism vs. Passion**: The blurred line between success and burnout. - **[32:00] How to Connect**: Where to find Maren’s services and resources. --- ### **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **Why High Performers Struggle with Mental Health**: The connection between identity, pressure, and emotional challenges. 2. **Athletes & Financial Struggles**: The role of financial literacy in preventing post-career crises. 3. **Addiction & Attachment**: Why high performers are more prone to addictive behaviors. 4. **The NIL Era**: How young college athletes are navigating newfound wealth and pressure. 5. **Planning for the Future**: Why having a post-career strategy is essential for long-term stability. --- ### **Guest Bio:** **Maren Londahl-Smidt, LCSW, LCAS** **Licensed Clinical Social Worker | Licensed Clinical Addictions Specialist** Maren Landahl-Smidt is a therapist specializing in working with elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high-performing individuals. With over seven years of experience in outpatient therapy, medical settings, and community mental health, she helps clients navigate emotional regulation, financial stress, and career transitions. Maren’s approach is client-centered and strengths-based, incorporating various therapeutic techniques such as Attachment-Based Therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Emotionally Focused Therapy. 📍 Learn more: [https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt](https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt)(https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt](https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt)) 📧 Contact Maren: Maren@CarolinaPerformance.net(mailto:Maren@CarolinaPerformance.net) | (919) 675-2259 YouTube: @BalanceandBeyondCoaching Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/balance-and-beyond-coaching-solutions-llc-a63631353(http://www.linkedin.com/in/balance-and-beyond-coaching-solutions-llc-a63631353) TicTok: @balanceandbeyondcoaching Carolina Performance, www.carolinaperformance.net(http://www.carolinaperformance.net/) --- ### **Resources Mentioned:** - **Infinity Growth Practice (Maren’s Therapy Practice):** [https://www.infinitygrowthpractice.com](https://www.infinitygrowthpractice.com) - **Balance and Beyond Coaching (Maren’s Business Coaching):** [https://www.balanceandbeyondcoaching.com](https://www.balanceandbeyondcoaching.com) - **Circle of Security Parenting:** [https://circleofsecurityinternational.com](https://circleofsecurityinternational.com) - **You Need A Budget (YNAB) Financial Planning Tool:** [https://www.ynab.com](https://www.ynab.com) --- ### **Follow Us:** - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### **Watch & Listen:** - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) --- ### **SEO Hashtags:** #MentalHealthForAthletes #AthleteIdentity #FinancialWellness #AddictionRecovery #FindingNewWatersPodcast #NILMoney #HighPerformanceCoaching

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Navigating the Future of Behavioral Health with Tripp Johnson 37:47 min | Tripp Johnson | Finding New Waters In this thoughtful and insightful episode of "Finding New Waters", we sit down with Tripp Johnson, a dedicated mental health advocate, who provides an enlightening look into the future of behavioral health and substance abuse care. Drawing on his wealth of experience, Johnson explores the urgent shift towards integrated care models, the significant role AI and individualized data will play, and the power of community in healthcare. Subscribe "The best behavioral health organizations in 15 or 20 years are gonna be managing massive amounts of individualized data and they're gonna be providing community both for the people that they're serving and for their teams." - Tripp Johnson Podcast Transcript #017 Tripp Johnson Tripp Johnson: [00:00:00] But ultimately I think we're putting like way too much emphasis on the pharmacology aspect, not enough emphasis on social determinants of health and all of the community stuff. Like I think we've gotten so disconnected and social media and technology is, Only makes it more so that like we forget, like we're social primates, like we came outta the primordial stew. Yeah. Like we're animals and we forget that because we're now we're just on our phones and we forget about community and then all the things that used to bring us together and like the shared humanity. So I'm thinking a lot about like how do we advance a narrative of wellness, of human flourishing and leverage the healthcare system? Tripp Johnson: Cuz that's what it's there for.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our continuing care coordinator, Ryan Jarrell and Tripp Johnson. Tripp is the founder and c e O of Aim, Aveda Integrated Medicine, and the owner of Green Hill Recovery as the C E o Tripp is responsible for strategic decisions, organizational performance, and cultural management. Graham Doerge: Trip ensures that all team members are aligned with Aimes core values, living centered accountability, unity, transparency, and growth. Additionally, trip is responsible for developing Aimes brand, the externalization of its culture, [00:02:00] which involves representing the organization locally, regionally, and nationally. Graham Doerge: Trip. Graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point with a Bachelor of Science in Economics and a minor in systems engineering at West Point Trip was a four year member of the varsity tennis team and winner of the Patriot League Championships. After graduation, he was commissioned into the Army as an infantry officer and completed the US Army Ranger School, airborne School and Air Assault School. Graham Doerge: Trip deployed to Southern Afghanistan as an infantry platoon leader in 2012 13 in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Upon return, he was selected to be an ex executive officer before finishing his service as a battalion operations officer. Prior to joining Green Hill Trip was a second year law student at U N C and an interned at the North Carolina Department of Justice Trip left Law School to pursue his passion for helping young men navigate the complexities of early adulthood. Graham Doerge: That's a great place to start for me. Trip, welcome and happy to have you here. And glad that you could [00:03:00] finally make Tripp Johnson: it. I've been waiting for the invite. Graham Doerge: Listen, we had to work out some kinks before we, we had you in here, right? I'm psyched to have you today, man. And obviously we've known each other for a bunch of years now. Graham Doerge: I consider you a dear friend and and obviously a confidant and a guy that I can go to with Issues, questions, business related issues. So it's really cool to have you in here today. Yeah. Tripp Johnson: Excited Graham Doerge: for it. Yeah, man. So let's let's start with how did you get into this field? And, obviously you've got a military background of decorated. Graham Doerge: Individual. So give us a little bit of background. Tripp Johnson: Yeah I'll start with I grew up in Hickory, North Carolina. I thought I was gonna be a professional athlete. I was traveling around the country for tennis, which was all going really well until I, I had a little bit of an attitude problem and injury. Tripp Johnson: And then that kind of coincided with, I'd always put everything off to focus on tennis, and I decided hey, Tennis isn't everything, then maybe I should start having a little bit more fun. That led me to really [00:04:00] probably becoming, embracing a new identity. I had really had an identity built around being a tennis player. Tripp Johnson: The next identity I had was around being just over the top a partier. And then I found myself at, 17 trying to figure out how to make my family proud because I hadn't really tried very hard in school, didn't have great grades, and they had all gone. Have their master's degrees and stuff from grade schools. Tripp Johnson: Didn't know how I was gonna get in anywhere. Yeah. So I ha I was still good at tennis, but I wasn't great and I looked up prestigious schools with bad tennis teams and I found the Ivy's. I was like I could play with these guys, but they're not gonna recruit me really hard. Then I found West Point. Tripp Johnson: And their tennis team. And I love the tennis team. I feel very connected. So I'm sorry for any army tennis players out there, but like we're just not the top D one team out there. And so they recruited me to play there and it was a great institution and I always had looked up to folks in, in the military. Tripp Johnson: So it checked every box ended up [00:05:00] barely getting in to, to the service academy. I think that coincided with the same week with the first time I got arrested for drinking. And then I, went to West Point thought, oh, I'll get everything together. You've gotta be, this is gonna provide all the structure I need. Tripp Johnson: But it didn't, just like anywhere you can find that your group of guys to run with, I found my guys, or I might have started the group at least in my class. So I started, just had the same pattern. Work hard, play hard barely graduated, got in a lot of trouble while I was up there which is all funny now, but wasn't at the time to my family. Tripp Johnson: After graduating, like we said, I went to ranger school, took over a platoon, went to Afghanistan, and I was still getting in trouble. Like I had this funny. Seasonal, I call it the seasonal arrest record. Yeah. Like I would do really well all year and then the summer would come and I would blow it up and I think it was because I was much more comfortable picking up the pieces and putting them back together than actually waiting into new waters. Tripp Johnson: So it was like really comfortable for me to to blow [00:06:00] it up and then rebuild back to where I was and then blow it up and do it again. So I always got very good at that rebuilding right kind of process. So when I came back from, The deployment. I fortunately had a friend who actually ended up being in Congress, max Rose. Tripp Johnson: He pulled me aside. He's dude, what are you doing? He's you're not this, you're trying to be this character, right? This macho man, hard partying guy. But you really want to be more intellectual. You want to do other things, but you think this is what you're supposed to be, right? So you need to investigate that basically. Tripp Johnson: So I was like that, that hit hard. And so I called my dad and was like, I don't know. What I need, but something's gotta give. And he said, this is gonna sound crazy because you're this 210 pound Army ranger macho, drinking a fifth of vodka, chewing a bunch of Copenhagen guy, but I think you're gonna this type of yoga and I think you should start meditating. Tripp Johnson: And this type of yoga was a shanga yoga and and he said, look just try it for a month. Just do 30 days in a row, see what happens. Yeah. [00:07:00] And I said, cool. I did it. And he sent me a copy of The Untethered Soul, which is a book I recommend all the time. And a couple videos of Alan Watts. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. And that kind of kicked off this whole new path for me, and it was very much about, I had looked for, I had looked for a lot of, relief in, drugs, alcohol, and just embracing the hedonic pleasures as I call them. And that didn't work. Like it was, it didn't fill whatever hole, whatever I was looking for. Tripp Johnson: And yoga meditation started to provide that path for me that it, that felt like there were a lot of strings to pull at and went off the deep end there for a while. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And dig into this as Ashtanga, the actual practice of Ashtanga a little bit. Cause No, our audience really knows what Tripp Johnson: that is. Tripp Johnson: So it is a, Ashtanga yoga in the most traditional sense iss just the eight limbs of yoga. And so it, it's a holistic path of yoga. It's not just the asana or the physical practice, but usually when we're talking about Ashtanga these [00:08:00] days, it's a particular set series of postures. And typically you do this kind of first thing in the morning. Tripp Johnson: There's a lineage out of kind of Miso India, and I was introduced to that again by my father, started practicing. It's a really intense practice, so a lot of the power yoga that people talk about, the hot yoga, that stuff, a lot of it stems from the asanga lineage, but the really cool thing, and I think what's really powerful about it is that you, you have this set sequence and instead of a teacher, Walking everyone through the same sequence at the same time every day. Tripp Johnson: What you do is you practice every day, but you go at your own pace, you follow your own breath, and your curriculum, as they call it is really given to you by the teacher. So you want some level of mastery over the postures that come before it until you get the next one. Got it. For me, what it was like, it was really challenging. Tripp Johnson: I couldn't touch my toes. And there's a lot of forward folds in the beginning and. It provided a [00:09:00] really nice challenge every day and a way to really fine tune my body and my awareness with that because everything you eat, drink, all of that affects how you show up on the mat. So at first it was really just a physical practice. Tripp Johnson: It was just a really good exercise routine in some ways. Yeah. But it also introduced me to the idea that there was more to it than just these postures. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Now, so is there a particular diet that you, that people practicing our stock here Tripp Johnson: follow or. The Yo Ang or yoga's kind of sister science is Ayurveda, so a lot of people have some sort of Ayurvedic ish diet. Tripp Johnson: Most folks are vegetarian. I'm 99% vegan. Sometimes I'll sneak a piece of cheese, like if it's sitting out here in the hallway. I've seen it. Yeah. I try not to tell people about that, that's my real indulgence these days is a, an occasional piece of cheese. But yeah, so I've been vegetarian or vegan for probably eight or nine years. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. Ryan Jarrell: Trip I've known you for, I. For years now. And I gotta tell you, I think I've learned the most about your past from that three paragraph intro that Graham just read. I've known bits and pieces, but [00:10:00] I think one of the cool things about working with you is you do have this story that to the outside seems really winding, but to know you is to really know someone who has a through line and a, and an intentionality behind it. And you've gone everywhere from young tennis pro to someone who's in active combat situations in Afghanistan all the way to, doing yoga with 28 year old heroin addicts. Ryan Jarrell: And I'm wondering is there a through line that you can identify throughout these pieces? Is there something that weaves it all together that Tripp Johnson: makes it kind of trip? Yeah, I always say it started where the through line at least starts for me was in fifth grade. I remember sitting on the floor of the gymnasium watching a talent show. Tripp Johnson: And I felt like extremely untalented. This was before I was, good at tennis. And I just thought, man, like it would be cool to be talented. Then I'd be happy. Then I started thinking like really, I just wanna be happy. Yeah. And That led me to really having an early experience of, oh, I could just choose that this is okay and everything is good. Tripp Johnson: And I did that for a little while, but, then [00:11:00] the mind starts going you, the ego gets involved and that's, what really drove me competitively with tennis. There's also, there's an interesting story with religion winding into that, which was, I. I grew up in a, a Christian household, but not dogmatic. Tripp Johnson: We didn't really talk about it that much, but I thought, Hey, if happiness is important, then, and then I found out about heaven and hell started thinking about that. I was like happiness on earth is one thing, but like I want to turn all happiness, so I better be very dogmatic about my, religious practices, what I need to do to get into heaven essentially. Tripp Johnson: And then, again, my black and white thinking back then was very much okay, I'm gonna follow all of these things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be good enough for God, then I'll get into heaven. And then when I started really investigating scripture, I found too many inconsistencies that my mind couldn't make sense of at the time. Tripp Johnson: So then I threw it out. It was like throwing out the baby with the bathwater situation. So I said, Hey, look, if that's not part of it, [00:12:00] then. I'm just supposed to have as much fun as I can right now no matter what. And so it was really that search for happiness and which I can now consider more of a search for like contentment and equanimity, but it was definitely this search for like how can I just. Tripp Johnson: Be happy and be content in my body. And then the idea, the other kind of piece of that was I always felt very lucky. Like I always knew I was a really lucky person and so part of my happiness was always going to be like being a part of something bigger and feeling like I was giving back to the world. Tripp Johnson: That's what obviously led me, to the military piece and then what I do now. Graham Doerge: Yeah. No and I think that obviously, working with young adult guys, I can that's been a passion of mine o over the years as well. And what kind of really drove you to particularly work with this population and Bill Greenhill recovery. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And tell us a little bit about Greenhill Tripp Johnson: recovery too. Yeah. As far as Greenhill goes, I didn't have a passion for it. Yeah. The truth is that someone had the idea, [00:13:00] my first business partner had the idea for Greenhill. He was originally going to open it with another friend of ours who had gone through a very similar program to Greenhill. Tripp Johnson: That relationship fizzled out and he called me and he said, Hey, do you wanna help start this? And I said, I was in law school, I had just finished up, or I was in the middle of my internship at the attorney general's office and I hated it. Hated it. And, I've been devoting my life cuz I, I had this real, change in path when I was in the army that basically said I can keep trying to change the external circumstances where I can really work on me. Tripp Johnson: And then I spent and I continue to spend a, a lot of my time working on me. And he said you build the, you helped me build this thing. I'll handle the business side, the marketing, all that. I'm good with that, but I just need you to help build a program and run a team. I've never had any leadership experience, so I need someone to help with that. Tripp Johnson: So I came on as the CO and a co-founder in it. And I loved what we did because for me, That was [00:14:00] exactly the path I had been on. Like we were working with a lot of young adults that had similar situations, and I always say that if my family was not supportive of me and had resources. Tripp Johnson: I probably should have gone to treatment. I probably, I could have been in a lot different legal situations and so the idea of, that was like I got to jump, I was in law school to figure out what I wanted to do, and then this opportunity to like just do what I wanted to do. Tripp Johnson: Showed up at my doorstep. So I certainly wasn't any sort of like visionary, like I need to go fix. Young adult treatment or I need to provide something else. But I certainly resonated with it and I think the existential piece of growing up and the confusing pieces, especially now, I think it's even more confusing for 22 year olds now than it was when I was 22. Tripp Johnson: I just really sympathize with the position these guys are in and that there is a, there's like a path out of it, but that it can be very difficult to navigate and especially when you have, substance use concerns, mental health concerns, but also you want to do things in life. Tripp Johnson: It's not just, yeah, it's not just a [00:15:00] vacation. And certainly getting sober isn't a vacation, but. What we do is like really try and build people's, lives and so that they have purpose and meaning Graham Doerge: And clients are typically coming to Green Hill after completing some sort of like residential treatment Tripp Johnson: or something like that. Tripp Johnson: So yeah, so Green Hill Transitional Living program, typically it's 18 to 28 year old male identified patients, and most of them are coming to us after having done at least 30, usually 90 days of treatment. Occasionally they'll come going through stabilization. Depending on what's going on. Tripp Johnson: But yeah, they usually come work with us for six to nine months and then the goal is that we, we get 'em back into school, help them establish careers and really get integrated the community and in Raleigh because there's just so much to offer here. Yeah. And Graham Doerge: I love that. Obviously working with that population I like I can identify with it so cuz I was a young guy getting sober myself. Graham Doerge: I was 26 when I went into treatment and for the first time probably should have gone a whole lot longer or earlier rather. [00:16:00] And I can identify as well with you said I was, I had annual legal issues just like every six months I had annual suspensions. Yeah. From boarding's schools. It was once a year. Graham Doerge: I was, sent home for a couple weeks, and that's just how it went for three to four years. But I think that, with these young guys in particular, for me, when I was facing it, it was so daunting to think, oh my gosh, for the rest of my life, I cannot use these substances. And I wasn't married, I wasn't, there was all these life events that I was just, ugh how am I gonna do that? Graham Doerge: What is that gonna be like? And, the reality was I was super fortunate because probably about halfway into treatment I had the awareness that, life is not over because I can't use these substances. It's just really beginning because look at all the amazing things I can do and started throwing myself into all this stuff, fly fishing and whatnot, and just finding really healthy, passionate, passionate hobbies. Graham Doerge: And that's like your Ashtanga, that's your peace. That's what gets you going in the day, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's so important for these young to make that connection for these young guys. And a lot of them just [00:17:00] they don't have the wherewithal to go there, Ryan Jarrell: especially today, and what, we're gonna be another podcast that talks about social media, right? Ryan Jarrell: But the, the kids that, I see the kids, because I've worked at Green Hill previously, and these guys are looking on TikTok and they're seeing all their friends and they're smoking blunts and they're drinking all day and they're meeting cute girls and some guys telling 'em to do their laundry, right? Ryan Jarrell: Make your Tripp Johnson: bad. And that is, Like Ryan Jarrell: Exactly. And that is like unambiguously a bad situation, right? Yeah. And the beauty of working at Green Hill and working with you guys is. What I really appreciated is it's not a one size fits all. It's not a cookie cutter type program. You will do individualized service and be able, not just to give this kid some order, but to be able to extend the kids some real compassion. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. Because I think we all, like the three of us all know how it is to be a kind of crappy 20 something year old kid, and we can have real honest compassion for that Absolutely. As a result. Yeah. Trip Greenhill Greenhill's an excellent program that's still like a centerpiece of the Raleigh recovery community. Ryan Jarrell: But your company has similarly definitely had some changes over the years and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the [00:18:00] expansion of services and like the through line that drove that. Yeah. Because you guys are much, you guys absolutely do fantastic transitional living and you guys do a lot more than that for the Raleigh Tripp Johnson: community. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. So the this is where I can say I would definitely was not the visionary for Greenhill, but in, in working at Greenhill and really trying to build it I love what we could do. I always say if we could have bat a thousand on guys coming to Greenhill and having what we're gonna call as traditional success right out the gate, it's all I'd ever do. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. Because it is the, it's the most rewarding population cuz you know, when you get a guy in young, early adulthood, Launching into a career, like there are so many wins that can be there. Yeah. And the ripple effect from the, that is incredible. No, it's so cool. Yeah. But the thing is everyone knows, like treatment doesn't just go well, yeah. Tripp Johnson: It's not always gonna go well. I've always, as taken a pretty philosophical stance on things. And so I really. Green Hill had was doing its thing from a, a business perspective. [00:19:00] But I kept on running into these problems we had addressing the needs of our current clients and that was, I. Tripp Johnson: Integrated care, like we needed psychiatry and just contracting with someone, even if they're the best psychiatrist in the world, doesn't mean that they're actually going to be communicating with the rest of your team like you need them. And so the first thing was like, at Green Hill needs to improve, and the next step is integrating care. Tripp Johnson: Then I've been deeply influenced by the effect of altruist movement, which is under a little bit of flack right now with the whole Sam Bankman free thing. However, I think philosophically it's super important because just like I go back to one of my through lines is service and really wanting to do something for other people, but not just wanting to feel like we were trying to do good, but actually doing good. Tripp Johnson: And how can you know? So effective altruism is all about how you can use your resources, being your time and your money to do the most good possible. And again, I love what we do with transitional living, but [00:20:00] that had it own limitations. And the thing that sucks the most about Green Hill and just private pay treatment in general is that there's a scarcity, there's a pervasive scarcity mindset, and it's very expensive. Tripp Johnson: It's, you feel for these families who you wish you could help, but they just don't have the money. And so it became I got really interested in the insurance side of things and I really wanted to. Figure out if there was a way to work more with insurance and do psychiatry. And so that's the kind of genesis of where Adv, Vita Integrated Medicine, and now we're we're doing like a little rebranding and it's the Adv Vita Collective. Tripp Johnson: Green Hill and Aim were set up originally as separate entities and now we brought the whole gang back together and running it as one collective integrated care. And really the idea of a recovery oriented system of care too. So there are multiple on ramps and all ramps in our system now. Tripp Johnson: So guys who go through our transitional living may stay in the area, continue working with us on therapy and psychiatry and or people may start with us for, [00:21:00] finding a therapist or doing medication management and may end up in a different service. But that gives us a lot of flexibility to just meet people where they are, build rapport, and then really work to serve them. Tripp Johnson: So that's I think that answers it 100%. Ryan Jarrell: And I gotta tell you, like I think being a part of that, as that opened up and working at Greenhill, one of the most amazing things was that we were having this totally holistic, comprehensive care where we were having weekly meetings, not only with therapists, but with the psychiatrist at the transitional living level. Ryan Jarrell: And no one else can even tell how, what a fantastic service that is. And we weren't doing it to. Shout from the rooftops. Look at this amazing service. We didn't jack up prices as a result, we did it because you wanted to do it because it was the best way to do this care, and you wanted to do it the best way Graham Doerge: possible. Graham Doerge: Yeah. There's such a need right now. No, obviously getting in to see a psychiatrist, getting to see a therapist is. Know, month, two month waiting list if you can get in at all. So I think that creating this when you did was so necessary. Yeah. Yeah. It really has been. It's been a great [00:22:00] resource for us and obviously we've sent a ton of clients over to aim and it's been fantastic. Graham Doerge: So what are your kind of plans for the future? I know that you're always building and expanding and I know that you're very passionate about managed care and all that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing moving forward? Tripp Johnson: I think the first thing I'll say, and we can double click here if we want to at all, but last year was chaos. Tripp Johnson: Last year, as as you both know from being now on, on the ground floor with two new organizations, Ryan, but the first year or two is just, you're figuring it out. You think, and then what's the mic tag? Like you get punched in the face and everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Tripp Johnson: And there's I'm at this point I don't think you can start something new without taking a punch to the face. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're trying, I think as you all are trying to do here at New Waters too, like we're trying to do something better. Like it's not just a cookie cutter. Tripp Johnson: It's not just, Hey, like we can do these services like this. We're actually. It's a very creative process of how can we make this happen? Yeah. And why aren't things done this way? And why aren't they, why isn't this the standard? And sometimes there's a [00:23:00] reason and sometimes there isn't sometimes reasons, like people are lazy and they got greedy and they figured out one business model and they're just replicating it. Tripp Johnson: Yep. But other times there are reasons and you're like, man, I wish someone had told me that. So last year was chaos. So I'm trying to stay a little bit more grounded in terms of future directions right now. Certainly, We do have a few things. I say that and then I go into a laundry list of things. Tripp Johnson: I know. We're gonna be starting a full model DBT program soon. Oh, cool. I'm working really hard with Blue Cross to come up with a unique billing code to, to help us do this and then for us to share data with them. To hopefully pilot it cuz this full model DBT is one of the most effective treatment. Tripp Johnson: It's really the be has the best evidence base of anything in clinical work. And yet it's almost never done through insurance. And again, there are barriers for a reason around that because essentially insurance companies don't. Compensate you for those groups and the work it takes outside of it. Tripp Johnson: So first thing coming up is full model D B T. Okay. We'll be finishing. We're licensed [00:24:00] for, we're not running a PHP level of care right now. We're probably going to start PHP as well as an ambulatory detox for people who meet that criteria. Maybe some point this year. Tripp Johnson: We're finishing up our mental health licensure as well. So we will have the 1100 license in North Carolina, which means we'll be able to do PHP and i o p Don't see that happening right now. But the wellness concept is really what gets me, like I, I view. I, if as like I talk a lot about health insurance and the importance of doing things through health insurance, and I think a lot about behavioral health and its direction, but that's not my interest. Tripp Johnson: My interest is in this notion of human flourishing and just that this is the system, this is the healthcare system we have. And so we wanna be able to tap into it to increase human flourishing. But a lot of what I hope to see in the future, I also more sober living, really thinking about supported living. Tripp Johnson: As we talk about social media, I think a ton about how things are changing and [00:25:00] how so much is online now. And, which is great. I'm a huge technologist as well. But the real world is something that we all have to navigate. And I think housing, we have an affordable housing crisis. We also have just a supported housing crisis as well. There are a lot of people who need services and they're just not out there. So I'm thinking a lot about housing. I'm also interested, very interested in making some steps towards I want us to be one of the first people doing psychedelic assisted therapy legally in North Carolina. Tripp Johnson: I think there's a lot of promise. I think it's funny because the guy who has a psychiatry practice now, right? Doesn't really like psychiatry very much, does. There was a great armchair expert episode that just came out. It basically says 10% of drugs work. Like 10%. And so maybe we change it a few times and we get there. Tripp Johnson: But ultimately I think we're putting like way too much emphasis on the pharmacology aspect, not enough emphasis on social determinants of health and all of the [00:26:00] community stuff. Like I think we've gotten so disconnected and social media and technology. Only makes it more so that like we forget, like we're social primates, like we came outta the primordial stew. Yeah. Like we're animals and we forget that because we're now we're just on our phones and we forget about community and then all the things that used to bring us together and like the shared humanity. So I'm thinking a lot about like how do we advance a narrative of wellness, of human flourishing and leverage the healthcare system? Tripp Johnson: Cuz that's what it's there for. Yeah. Yeah. There's not much going on. Yeah. No. Yeah. Just a little. Yeah. As you just said, I'm gonna slow Graham Doerge: down a little bit. Tripp Johnson: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm curious guys Ryan Jarrell: and it's actually I think this is a good question for both of you, is business as we know it, especially post covid pandemic, like so many businesses have en endured these significant sea changes. Ryan Jarrell: New technologies are disrupting everything. You guys are both CEOs for At least partially like substance use treatment places. And I'm wondering what kind of wider effects you guys see for the business at large Graham Doerge: coming up. [00:27:00] Tripp Johnson: Do you? At least in, I think we're, we can always follow the trends of Medicare and Medicaid, so I think we're actually a long way in behavioral health for, like everyone wants to talk about disruptive technology, adaptive learning curriculum. Tripp Johnson: I think there's a lot of promise in it. But I just go back to, that's why I'm back to the real world. That's where I feel like, we need these third spaces. We need these places to get together. And we need we need good housing. I think we're going to see, in California now, I believe Medicaid's covering housing. Tripp Johnson: I think we're gonna see a lot of trends like that. I think we're, I think we're actually about to, we're gonna see a pretty big sea change in how we are looking at care. But when I say look at, Medicare and Medicaid, what they're doing, they've done this integrated care for the past 20 years. Tripp Johnson: And Private insurance and private programs haven't done it. So now we're under a lot of pressure as insurance, cuz 15 years ago you couldn't use your insurance for mental health or substance use treatment. So it was all private pay, that's all that existed. Now that insurance covers some of this [00:28:00] again, for better, for worse sometimes. Tripp Johnson: But now that insurance covers it, there's a pressure because now there are more programs opening up doing providing substance use and mental health services. So I think we're gonna see a big shift in integrated care. I think it's going to become pretty common. I think what we're doing right now, what, like what I'm doing isn't actually unique. Tripp Johnson: It's just more unique in, in this setting. So I think we're gonna see a lot of integration between primary care and behavioral health. And then I do think we're gonna see a lot of shifts in how we're How we're looking at the future. I think 10. I don't think the healthcare system will adapt as quickly as it should, but AI's already more powerful than. Tripp Johnson: All of us. So I think it's like foolish to think that it's probably not better at algorithmic thinking than we are. But I think we're gonna need community. And I think behavioral health, like the best behavioral health organizations in 15 or 20 years are gonna be, managing a massive amounts of individualized data. Tripp Johnson: And they're gonna be providing community both for.[00:29:00] The people that they're serving and for their teams. And I think that piece is how like organizations are gonna continue to adapt and change. But I think this idea that we have to see a doctor or a therapist for exactly, I think that's all gonna change. Tripp Johnson: Fee for service models are gonna change. But ultimately people need people and places to go. So I think like we're also in the best, Healthcare is 20% of GDP almost. They're their beha, mental health, behavioral health, substance use. It's only going to continue rising with as we become a more, individualized society and living on our phones and. Tripp Johnson: Soon everyone's gonna be doing their Apple VR sets and scary, then it's all over. Graham Doerge: And I think there's so much more awareness right now too, right? And everybody is, just having these conversations. 10 years ago people weren't having these conversations, and that's the reality. Graham Doerge: And now everybody knows there's just so many more tools out there. Yes. We're. A lot more fucked up than we were, part of my language. But we, also have a lot more tools, I think, and there's a lot more resources, which [00:30:00] is great. But in my, I love like connection is everything, right? Graham Doerge: Connection is recovery, right? In my opinion. And And, I'm really of, from the school of, I really think that the smaller more kind of boutique model of programming is really more effective. So I think that we're gonna see, just talking about headwinds. Graham Doerge: We've seen so much private equity money come into this field and, these organizations, a lot of these smaller programs are getting gobbled up by these larger entities and all that and creating these. Monster healthcare companies. And it's just really hard to do really good treatment when you've got 900 beds across the country. Graham Doerge: Yeah. It just is, man. We have 31 beds here at New Waters and every day you like, you have no idea what is really gonna be happening day to day. And there's so many variables all the time. And you have to have a really. Incredible team to manage all that stuff. Graham Doerge: And if you've got, 900 beds, I can't even wrap my head around how you would manage something like that, my hope is that, people will really wisen up to the quality of care in a lot of instances. And I think we do the really [00:31:00] good job with that. Graham Doerge: And hopefully people get connected with organizations like ours who can help them navigate the complexities of all this stuff, Absolutely. Good question, Lee. Yeah, Ryan Jarrell: I think one of the things that stands out about both these places and it really is both and I think that's very special, especially in a detox setting, is we get a community that's built. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. And there are guys, green Hill is the only home that they felt safe. Yeah. And we're a seven day detox and people are calling us three months later just to ask how we're doing or they're sending us candy and stuff like that, or we can't get 'em outta here. Yeah. That's also maybe a current difficulty that we have right now, but Tripp Johnson: But Graham Doerge: it's, am I gonna have a TV where I'm going in my room? Graham Doerge: It's not happening. We do Ryan Jarrell: spoil 'em sometimes for the next level of care. When will I get my phone? You'll never get your phone. Not at all. But that we build a community and that we're able to participate positively in, in these people's lives. It really is. I. I think more and more as I work in this industry more and more, I think what a true blessing it is to be able to do that for a living, Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I think too, that, like you were, you and Ben and your crew and Louis Finch and, all of you guys who opened your programs, within the last kind [00:32:00] of. 10 years, there really wasn't a whole lot here before then. No. If anything, yeah. Graham Doerge: And you guys have really built this recovery field or behavioral health, model here in, in Raleigh. And it's and you guys had a lot to do with why we opened new orders here, and I had a relationship with you prior to, and Louis was always telling me, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. Graham Doerge: And, finally we were able to make it happen. But but yeah, it's just, it's really cool to see everything that you guys have built here and you're and the reason one of the. Other reasons I wanted to start this here was because it's such a collaborative, area. And and everybody has really good intentions. Graham Doerge: Everybody. Not everybody but everybody that we work with for the most part is, super ethical and and it's just doing this work for all the right reasons. Yeah. And and it's not just getting people in the door. Yeah. It's, what is gonna serve this client best. Graham Doerge: And, we're sending clients all over the country because, that's what we need to do to set them up with a good trajectory forward. Absolutely. This has been great to catch up with you and chat here. Thank you for coming in today, trip and where can everybody find your [00:33:00] information and Tripp Johnson: we can go to trip j.com, t r ipp j.com if you want some of the personal musings and also some behind the scenes looks at what we're doing at the invite a collective. Tripp Johnson: And then there's aim wellbeing.com and greenhill recovery.com if you're looking for our specific programs. Great. Graham Doerge: Yeah, and we're gonna have all the all his information on the show notes. Obviously everything will be Put up on all streaming platforms and you can find us at finding new waters.com. Graham Doerge: Thanks so much and we will talk to you guys next week. Thank y'all. Show Notes In this podcast episode, Tripp Johnson, Co-founder and CEO of the Invita Collective, is the guest. Johnson's Invita Collective includes Aim Wellbeing and Green Hill Recovery, organizations that provide care and support for people struggling with substance abuse and mental health issues. The podcast hosts are Graham Doerge, co-founder of New Waters, and Ryan Jarrell, COO of Green Hill Recovery. The podcast begins with Johnson describing his background and his journey into the field of behavioral health. He shares his experience of moving from the finance industry to addiction recovery and mental health, spurred by his personal experiences and his passion for helping others. He highlights how the Invita Collective is working to integrate mental health and substance use care to provide more comprehensive and effective treatments. Johnson then discusses the effects of COVID-19 on mental health, substance use, and treatment centers. He shares the challenges faced in providing care during the pandemic and highlights the potential silver lining, the acceleration of telemedicine and virtual care, which has increased access to mental health services. Following this, Johnson talks about how his company is leveraging data to personalize and improve care. He explains that they use data to identify risk factors, predict outcomes, and adapt treatments to each person's unique needs. However, he also emphasizes that human connection and empathy cannot be replaced by algorithms. In the final part of the conversation, Johnson predicts future trends in healthcare. He anticipates a shift towards integrated care, greater integration between primary care and behavioral health, and an increase in mental and behavioral health as a part of the GDP. He also expects changes in fee-for-service models and a move towards handling individualized data.Graham Doerge and Ryan Jarrell both emphasize the importance of community and connection in recovery. They discuss the difficulties of managing many clients and the need for strong teams and effective management. They appreciate the collaborative and ethical atmosphere in their field and stress on doing what's best for the client, even if it means sending them elsewhere for treatment. #MentalHealth, #SubstanceAbuse, #IntegratedCare, #Healthcare, #BehavioralHealth, #Trauma, #AIinHealthcare, #Insurance, #Community, #Depression, #Anxiety, #DomesticViolence, #DigitalTherapy, #COVID19, #Recovery, #PrimaryCare, #QuarantineEffects, #Telehealth, #IndividualizedData, #MentalHealthAwareness. Tripp Johnson Links: ⁠https://www.trippj.com/⁠(https://www.trippj.com/) ⁠https://www.instagram.com/trippjohnson88/⁠(https://www.instagram.com/trippjohnson88/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/trippjohnson88/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/trippjohnson88/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/green-hill-recovery/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/company/green-hill-recovery/) ⁠https://greenhillrecovery.com/⁠(https://greenhillrecovery.com/) ⁠https://aimwellbeing.com/⁠(https://aimwellbeing.com/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *No Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *No Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. < Back to Episodes Turning Loss into Action: Freida MacDonald on Finding Hope and Helping Others 39:51 min | Freida MacDonald | Finding New Waters In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *Know Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. Freida’s powerful message underscores the value of meeting people where they are, breaking stigma, and staying connected to resources for long-term recovery. Subscribe "If we bring it out of the darkness and into the light, it stops being a monster. We can face it together, and that’s where hope begins." - -Freida MacDonald Show Notes In this deeply moving episode of *Finding New Waters*, we are honored to speak with Freida MacDonald, founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*. Freida shares her personal story of turning immense loss—the passing of her two sons, Stephen and Michael—into a mission to help others struggling with addiction. She talks about her work with *Know Hope NC*, her advocacy for harm reduction, the importance of resources like the Opioid Settlement Funds, and her work with recovery helplines. Freida’s powerful message underscores the value of meeting people where they are, breaking stigma, and staying connected to resources for long-term recovery. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and overview of the episode. - **[01:00] Meet Freida MacDonald**: Freida introduces herself and the story behind *Know Hope North Carolina*. - **[04:00] Turning Loss into Purpose**: How Freida transformed the loss of her sons into a mission to support others. - **[08:00] The Critical Role of Resources**: Advocacy for accessible detox centers, affordable aftercare, and recovery programs. - **[13:00] The Power of Personalization**: How *Know Hope NC* honors lives lost through banners and billboards. - **[18:00] Harm Reduction and Hope**: Meeting individuals where they are in their recovery journey and reducing stigma. - **[24:00] Addressing Opioid Settlement Funding**: Freida discusses how opioid funds can be allocated to create lasting impact. - **[28:00] Virtual Resources for Recovery**: How virtual support and grief groups are creating access for rural and underserved communities. - **[31:00] Breaking the Stigma**: Encouraging families to talk about addiction openly and truthfully. - **[35:00] Closing Thoughts**: Ways to get involved with *Know Hope North Carolina* and other recovery resources. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Turning Grief into Action**: Freida shares her journey of honoring her sons’ legacies through meaningful service. 2. **The Importance of Resources**: Addressing the need for affordable detox centers, aftercare options, and accessible recovery solutions. 3. **Harm Reduction Saves Lives**: Why meeting individuals where they are—free of judgment—creates opportunities for change. 4. **Billboards and Banners**: How Freida’s initiatives bring awareness and humanize addiction by sharing real faces and stories. 5. **Virtual Support and Community**: Leveraging technology to provide resources and connection for those in rural areas or lacking transportation. --- ### Guest Bio: **Freida MacDonald** **Founder, Know Hope North Carolina** Freida MacDonald is the founder of *Know Hope North Carolina*, a nonprofit dedicated to reducing stigma, honoring lives lost to addiction, and connecting individuals to recovery resources. After losing her two sons—Stephen to gun violence and Michael to fentanyl—Freida turned her grief into purpose, advocating for harm reduction, increased access to resources, and ongoing support for individuals and families. Through her work with *Know Hope NC* and the Alcohol and Drug Council of North Carolina, Freida has helped countless individuals find hope and healing. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Know Hope North Carolina**: [https://www.knowhopenorthcarolina.com](https://www.knowhopenorthcarolina.com) - **Alcohol & Drug Council of North Carolina (Recovery Helpline)**: http://help4recovery.org(http://help4recovery.org/) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram**: [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook**: [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn**: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok**: [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website**: [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify**: [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) - **Apple Podcast**: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube**: [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music**: [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) - **Google Podcast**: [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. --- #AddictionAwareness #HarmReduction #GriefSupport #KnowHopeNorthCarolina #FreidaMacDonald #FindingNewWatersPodcast #OpioidCrisis #BreakingTheStigma #RecoveryResources --

Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Brad Kennedy shares his inspiring story < Back to Episodes Navigating the Road to Recovery: A Discussion with Brad Kennedy from Driftwood Recovery 38:56 min | Brad Kennedy | Finding New Waters An engaging discussion with Brad Kennedy, the COO and partner at Driftwood Recovery, regarding the unique challenges and innovative methods in helping individuals overcome addiction. Brad elucidates upon the philosophy of fostering self-reliance in their recipients and emphasizes the importance of tailoring treatment based on individual needs rather than purely usage duration. The conversation also touches upon Driftwood's efforts to redefine and treat pain in relation to substance abuse, and developing a recovery plan in line with the individual's time, needs, and resources. Lastly, Brad highlights the significance of a supportive environment and empathy in recovery path. Subscribe "We always say that we don't have any special therapeutic tricks or modalities that are trademarked. What we have is a culture that we're uncompromising about." -Brad Kennedy Transcript Brad Kennedy Brad Kennedy: [00:00:00] As new stressors and your brain comes back online after being sober, it's not, I had a guy who was here and he's like, my goal, I mean, from the jump is to be fully present. And he went through residential, he stayed with us for, I think, 60 or 90 days at the Riverside house. Did amazing work. Anyone would say you got A pluses for his recovery, his therapy work, all of it. He went back and he called me this fully present stuff is for the birds, man, my Boyfriend my son's worried. He's not gonna make the football team. Like, you know, he went down the list of these normal things He hasn't dealt with for years So it doesn't stick, right? And you need that support. You need people to bounce things off of. You need to create, I think, as a field, we need to find ways to train people not to need us.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Graham Durgie, and I'm the CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery down here in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined today with our executive director, Justin McClendon. And our guest today is the one and only Mr. Brad Kennedy. from Driftwood Recovery. Um, Brad is the chief operating officer and partner at Driftwood Recovery. And I actually have some experience. I did a little, uh, I did a, about a year and a half of work where I was with Driftwood. Um, so obviously know the team intimately and all the work that they do. I still send Quite a few clients to them because in my opinion, they're one of the best in the business. Um, if I have a family member, if I have somebody, you know, very close to me that needs to go to treatment, driftwood is always at the top [00:02:00] of my list. So I'm very excited to have Brad on here today. Um, and Brad, I always kind of like to start these things out, obviously just, uh, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this work. Obviously it's pretty unique work that we do. So, uh, I think it's always interesting just to learn how people kind of find themselves to Brad Kennedy: that. Well, thank you so much for the kind introduction, Graham. It's really a pleasure to have some time to talk to you guys today. You know, I yeah, I kind of have taken a meandering path into this work. I certainly, you know, through my own personal experience, I had a need to seek support in different forms and fashions in terms of Really kind of a philosophy that I, that we hold true to at Driftwood today is trying to become the best version of yourself. And while I maybe wasn't that, I always throughout my life, um, and I was meandering through, like I had finished college and [00:03:00] I was working at Starbucks and I had a man who had become my, one of my mentors, Dr. Al Reister, uh, was a, was a regular customer there. And he came in and asked me, Hey, what are you going to do? It was like, you're graduating and. At the time I was really into running and triathlons and I said, well, I think I might do this 5k and then I'll work up to this. And he's like, no, I mean your life. And so, uh, you know, my first foray into the field was I was working with a preparation for adult living program. So I worked with foster kids, um, and really helped try to teach them independent living skills. And from that moment forward, uh, I did a number of different things, uh, in the helping industry. I worked at a treatment center in upstate New York, which is where I'm originally from. Um, And then ended up eventually finding my way to the Menninger Clinic where I worked for 14 years. Graham Doerge: Right. And Menninger is one of, you [00:04:00] know, kind of the top psychiatric programs across the country. Been around for what, 40 plus years? And, you know, one of the real staples in that world. So, obviously, great pedigree. You've, you've, uh, you know, being with them for so long, uh, you know, you're Your, you know, foundation is just so strong. And that's, that's, that's the thing that always stood out to me at driftwood is like the clinical team was so strong, you know, um, and all of you just that multidisciplinary team and everybody kind of having their own little specialty. Right. Brad Kennedy: Yeah. That's the model is really trying to make, I think you make yourself better by surrounding yourself with people that. Have skills that maybe you don't. Right. And the basic understanding, if you have 15 people in a team meeting, 15 lines are better than one or two, if you're just sitting in an individual session. So that's a kind of eat to the work that we have and dropping any egos over whose client or program they're in. It's like, what does that person [00:05:00] need? And how do we set up a team that allows for that Graham Doerge: experience? Yeah, a hundred percent. So there was a couple things that I pulled off the website that I just wanted to read quickly because I really like them and I think that you can, this will kind of be the catalyst to start, uh, start this conversation. Um, so from the website, Driftwood's approach is founded on an attachment based sanctuary informed model. Can you dig into that a little bit and, and just kind of let our audience, uh, understand what that Brad Kennedy: means? Yeah, absolutely. So I think when we hear like fancy psycho babble jargon, like attachment and sanctuary model, so our brains can kind of shut down. Um, and really to me, it's as simple as like the end result of actual addiction is a process where you really feel alienated from yourself and a really simple distilled down version of a secure attachment. is the opportunity to feel known, understood, and accepted. Known being the facts, right, which we generally pick [00:06:00] up in relationships pretty quickly. The understood part is the complexities of emotion and identifying, understanding, and expressing emotions. And then accepting, being like having people that you feel close to. And when you're using for a long time, and substance abuse disorder can rear its ugly head, you can really become pretty alienated from that. But the saddest part of that is when you become alienated from yourself, right? And you don't feel understood or accepting of yourself. You actively are repressing those emotions. When you look in the mirror, uh, it's not an accepting stance one is taking on, right? It's one generally people describe as a shame based, uh, response to that. And so we wanted to develop a program to help re establish the connection to oneself. And then bring in the context of recovery. We have a slogan like more context, more recovery. So family members, loved ones, whoever it may be, so that you can look at that ostracism that has [00:07:00] naturally occurred through the process. So when we say attachment, that's part of what we're talking about. Yeah, that's awesome. Justin Mclendon: You know what came up for me when you were talking about that is I'm a I'm a big fan and I guess a big student if you could if you could put it that way of Spirituality and like what spirituality means to us and just hearing you talk about that That was kind of the first thing that came up for me was you know, those same concepts is not And not to turn this podcast into one about spirituality or anything like that, I promise I won't do that. But, you know, that same idea is that, you know, removing or stepping away from this idea that there's this, you know Uh, big figure in the sky, but more of this idea of spirituality being like those things, right? Like acceptance, you know, uh, connection, mindful awareness, like, you know, living a life that is an engaging in, in relationships, uh, that is fulfilling and connected in, in kind of a healthier way of [00:08:00] life, if you will. Right. So I don't know, just throw in, throw in a couple ideas in there that came up while you were talking. Brad Kennedy: Yeah, I love that. We love that. Yeah. You know, it brings to mind, I worked, the first treatment center I ever worked at was a place called St. Joseph's recovery in the Adirondacks of upstate New York. And they had this tapestry on the wall, you know, certain things, when you see them, they just become kind of imprinted on your brain. And it said, if you want to know if a man is religious or not, don't ask him, follow him around for a week. I'm probably butchering it, but it was, that's, I love that. And so I think it really does tie into what you're saying, which is. How is the practice of recovery coming to life for people? How is, how are their feelings resonating within them? I mean, there are fancy modality names for it, I think. But when you really distill down amazing therapy and recovery, it's really. How do you start to, well, go for the luxury and love yourself again and love others, [00:09:00] or how do you just feel connected to yourself again or aware maybe is where most people start early on. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And having that, that moment when you were saying looking in the mirror, I mean, I have that distinct moment of, of in being in my boss, uh, basement in Boston before I got into treatment and looking in the mirror and just having no idea who that human was, right? And just, and literally just feeling like I'm looking at a total stranger. Like I just had left, lost my whole identity and, and who I was. Right. And, um, so that isolating behavior is so scary, so terrifying. And it come into a place like driftwood. I mean, I know when I got there, the, and even just to visit the program, there was just like a vibe on the campus. Right. And it's just, you know, you're in Austin, Texas. It's a great place. It's a very, you know, kind of cool, funky place to be in general, but. It is such a family atmosphere and such a warm, loving place. And, um, and I just, that's [00:10:00] so important. It's, you know, it's not institutional. It's, you know, it's a really hopeful, beautiful place where people can, um, you know, take that next step in life. So, um, you guys have done an amazing job with that. Brad Kennedy: It really has a dream for us, right? And I say us, I mean, there's Peter who's, uh, Flores is one of our founders. My wife also works here. Dr. Vanessa Kennedy. I always tell people it's a Dr. Mr. Situation. It keeps my ego in check early on with this dream. Like, can we, can we do it? And I'll tell you one day, it's kind of a strange story, but one day where it really became true to me is we had a guy. Um, one of the staff came and said, Hey, this guy's upset. He's walking towards the gate, which is a long walk. You wouldn't want to walk, uh, from here. But before I could even get there, one of the guys, uh, who's our, one of our facilities guys was walking next to him. And I thought that's a model. Uh, [00:11:00] that's not in that guy's job description. He's not trying to do anything, but he gets the ethos and the shared culture that we have. We always say that we don't have any special therapeutic tricks or modalities that are trademarked. What we have is a culture that we're uncompromising about. And whether it's an attachment model or trauma informed, meaning we've all been through some pain and we all need some help to get out of it. That's something that we accept. We show up, um, from the kitchen staff to the docs. People are showing up with that shared mental model and wanting to approach and help in that way. Graham Doerge: Yep. Yep. That's even, even down to, you know, the staff eating with the clients and having that moment during lunch where kind of the barriers are taken down and you can have that, that real connection and that intimate moment, um, where they're not feeling like they're being therapized. Right. And, you know, those moments are sometimes some of the most powerful, powerful experiences that these guys have in treatment and those real breakthrough moments. So it's like having, you know, you're [00:12:00] not just doing work when you're in group, it's, it's happening all around you. And at all times, Brad Kennedy: right? Absolutely. And then we have a house, we have a house in, uh, Austin that we call our community integration program. We designed it with that, Mike, I'm going to carry out the attachment based model, right? And how do you take the show on the road? It's really cool in this bubble of residential treatment that arrests active addiction is completely necessary. And is absolutely beautiful, but we want to make sure that momentum carries forward. And how do you create those meaningful, secure attachments in real life? Um, and there's a whole team that supports people to do that. And it's a really kind of magic moment too, when you realize like, Oh, this doesn't happen just in a session or with the super accepting, uh, uh, it can happen in real life. If I'm showing up in a certain way that's more authentic and true to my values and the values of recovery and that. Yeah. [00:13:00] Yeah, absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Can you tell us a little bit about, I mean, we know, especially Graham know a lot about Driftwood, but you know, maybe for the people that are, that are listening and watching. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, the program and like level of care, length of stay, what happens, what's the. Maybe the perfect client. The Brad Kennedy: perfect client. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when you find them. Please send it my way, you know, Graham Doerge: perfect Brad Kennedy: client is someone that has a willingness to learn about themselves. Right. And the spark that often comes in a company's labels, like. A treatment resistant client is not something that, to me, it's like you have this spark inside you that doesn't allow you to fall into a trap of compliance for compliance sake, and you may actively debate things and appear in what clinical terms would be oppositional, narcissistic, insert your pathologized term here. That's not the barrier. The barrier is what's really getting in the [00:14:00] way of you accepting the best version of yourself. Right. And is it a fear or pressure or the fear of hope that the belief that change is positive and possible is so overwhelming that you're like, dude, I'm never going to be that Brad Kennedy, I'm going to be Starbucks entity, it's not going to happen, whatever. So, um, the perfect client to me is just has some willingness, the ability to hit the pause button occasionally and think. Maybe I don't have it all figured out, right? And we, I think, have the responsibility as a team to assemble a team that creates opportunities for that kind of change. Um, so I'm sorry, I went off on like the bad history teacher that goes off on 10. No, I love it. No, I love it. That's, uh, to me, the perfect like, you get the willingness, even if they have an edge to their presentation, um, we get it, right? Um, there's a fancy therapy clinical term for it called epistemic mistrust, right? It's like something happens in your [00:15:00] life. That doesn't allow you to trust your primary caregivers, uh, whoever that may be, maybe your parents, maybe your partner, whatever. So that's, that's ruptured. Through active addiction, your trust of your mind will get ruptured, right? It's par for the course, um, that you can't, people will come to you and also say, Hey, do your best thinking. And AA has slogans for their like, your best thinking got you here, right? But it's, you can't trust your mind. And then you have somebody show up like me and you're like, but I'm Brad Kennedy, I'm going to be super nice to you. And you're like, who the hell are you? Why should I trust you? I, I don't trust the people I'm biologically wired to trust. I can't trust my own thinking right now. So some guy sitting in an office on a nice campus, you're the You're the savior. I don't think so. And so that's the elephant in the room. Right? Is that mistrust oftentimes that makes people think, well, they don't want to change as if it's a readiness question. And it's really like a human being [00:16:00] question. Maybe they're pretty wise not to trust yet because they're afraid of being hopeful, right? What the family or loved ones might think. If you do start doing better, people want you to replicate that. So, Graham Doerge: sorry, I got fired up over that. And, and so how do you, how do you approach that client and how do you break through that? And, and what's the methodology there? Yeah. Brad Kennedy: So, attachment takes time, right? And so, the first thing is the ability to have clinicians that know what to do with the things that get unearthed through the recovery and therapeutic and treatment process. The second is the time to do it. So we have very small caseloads complete compared for our clinicians compared to most people yet They're probably working as much or more hours than anyone, right? Because they're trying to find a way in and they're trying to point out where the incongruence is between how that person sees himself [00:17:00] or is presenting themselves and how they're really showing up in life And sometimes we need people to say, Hey, Graham, when I saw you in Boston and looking in that mirror, I actually saw a guy who was scared and you're like, Oh, I wasn't scared of this fella, bring up a moment. So, right. And, and they're like, yeah, but you know, they're bringing those two realities together. Um, yeah, we create that. We have a group programming that's basically designed to basically every day you're getting. A open process group, right? This kind of traditional group psychotherapy. And we bring in trainers to train our clinicians in like, what is, how do you find those dynamics, those repeated patterns and no one likes to look at the hidden dynamics in their level, like, I don't know about you guys, but when people bring those up to me, I'm like. Yeah, probably not. They're like, I'm going to get defensive the first time, probably. So we have, you can bring it up people that can curate a community [00:18:00] and have a shared experience. We use evidence based behavioral practices because all the insight in the world without action. Just leads to more frustration. So it's one thing to know, Hey, I don't have a voice in my family, but if you don't have a dbt, dear man, to know how to speak up next time, that situation presents itself, you're just kind of fuming and silence. So we teach a lot of skills dbt that apply very readily to addiction. And then we do a lot of recovery group. There are principles in recovery, honesty, grief and loss, resentments. How do you deal with that stuff? Um, and trying to find a pathway that people can really work on that in their own way. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And the thing that was coming up for me right there was, was the, uh, like the people pleasing, right? It is such a common, um, attribute and, and I'm a huge. Uh, you know, victim of this and, and, and I [00:19:00] think I'm better at it now, but early on, I mean, you know, that was, it was just kind of like, how do I stay under the radar? And, and, you know, uh, obviously, you know, giving people the answer that they wanted was a good way to do that. But obviously, um, your process, I think really kind of gets them out of that head, head frame, you know, um, and meet some where they're at, which is awesome. Brad Kennedy: Thanks. Yeah. I mean, we're all, to me, the best solutions are co created. Right. So no matter how awesome a program may be, a clinician may be, a peer group may be, if you don't have a shared narrative between you and the other party, it's really hard to buy in. Right. And you may know the right and you may even agree. Yeah, that's the best way to deal it. Do it. I can't do it, but that's a really cool way to deal with, uh, right. So it's creating, I think this is what's going on, allowing the space to check. And asking the person how I move forward, right? Sometimes they already know, [00:20:00] right? Um, or there's invisible vultures like fear, anxiety, resentment. Graham Doerge: And so this is a long process. It takes a long time, right? So how long are clients typically with you guys? And what's, what's in your opinion for a positive outcome? What's the best scenario for length of stay? Brad Kennedy: Yeah. I mean, so I think our average length of stay at residential is around 47 days, right? Uh, some people detox when they come in sometimes. People come from great detox experience like you guys have and they show up ready, minds are ready as well to do the work. Um, and then you need some kind of aftercare after that, right? And I think depending on your lifestyle and you know, the treatment's expensive. Um, how do you continue to keep the momentum that you get going from a residential experience into real [00:21:00] life? Um, so we're always trying to help people envision a plan. It's not a 30 day problem. It's a one year problem, is the way I think about it. And it's, does it stop at a year? Of course not. But like, let's not make the finish line something that's deceiving to an individual. That the work is very, very difficult. Um, as new stressors and your brain comes back online after being sober, It's not, I had a guy who was here and he's like, My goal, I mean, from the jump, is to be fully present. And he went through residential. He stayed with us for, I think, 60 or 90 days at the Riverside House. Did amazing work. Anyone would say, uh, A pluses for his recovery, his therapy work, all of it. He went back home. He called me. This fully present stuff is for the birds, man. My teenage boyfriend, my son's worried he's not going to make the football team. Like, you know, he went down the list of these normal things he hasn't dealt with for years. So it doesn't [00:22:00] stop. Right. And you need that support. You need people to bounce things off of need to create. I think as a field, we need to find ways to train people not to need us. Right. So you need to find right. A meeting where you can share and connect you need to find a group where you can share and connect that you're not paying by The hour right as much as I love some of my long term clients That's my goal for everyone is like, how do you find that within? And maybe there's times when you you go back to a therapist you had or a sponsor you had and you're like, hey I really need help. Um, but you one of the mentors I had was peter fonagy And he said don't you think the best coping skill you can teach somebody is the ability to think for themselves? And, um, wow, that's, uh, that's a good point. It's hard to argue with that one. That's Graham Doerge: huge. That's huge. Yeah. And I mean, in your mindset too, as a therapist, you know, your goal is to get this person, you know, self sufficient and on their own. And, you know, unfortunately a lot of [00:23:00] therapists, that's, they, they, they want you coming back for, you know, an extended period of time. So it's not only, you know, that, that kind of a mindset. So being careful about that, I think is also good too, but I know you had a question. Well, I was just Brad Kennedy: thinking, you Justin Mclendon: know, when you were talking like, you know, so we have, Yeah. I think we would agree that year trajectory is, is, uh, should be gold standard. Again, that's my opinion, right? But, um, you know, it's, it's hard, especially being on the very front end, you know, operating a detox facility like we do here at New Waters Recovery. Uh, we have a client that's come in, we're working with the client, we're working with the family, we're having discussions about, okay, this is what's going on, this, this is our recommendation for moving forward. Uh, that is a hard pill to swallow to say, hey guys, we're not talking about. The next 30, 45 days here. We're talking about the next six months, the next year and what that needs to look like. Um, and that, uh, that can sometimes be a, you know, a big conversation to, to broach with, with clients and families. Um, you [00:24:00] know, so, you know, I think, you know, the way we handle that is, okay, let's not worry about what's going to happen 365 days from now. Let's worry about what are we going to do next. And then I really like what you said, Brad, about, We, we really should be, I think, collectively as an industry, as individuals that provide care for other people, like, um, really working towards that goal of, you know, somewhere in this process, we're letting go of those reins, the client is taking control of those reins, and that needs to become something to where they're providing their own care, so to speak, right? They are the source of their own Uh, change and they, and they find, you know, places where they can receive that, that support that doesn't have to be in a facility setting. It doesn't have to be necessarily a, you know, an extensive team of professionals that's working with them. Because at the end of the day, I mean, we all just want to We just want to live life, right? We want to make good decisions. We want to have good connections. And like, we kind of started the conversation with, we just want to be healthy people, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I love it. So we have that, we have that same philosophy. [00:25:00] Brad Kennedy: Yeah. I think the way I think about it too, is we all have different measuring sticks for how we're going to measure our values in our life and our quality of life. And how can we partner with the people that are trusting us enough to seek help to develop their own recovery milestones? I don't know how you like i've been doing this for a long time. There's nothing. No, there's not a discussion I dislike more than talking about number of days in treatment. I have like Yeah, I can see it based on research sure it makes a lot of sense But really, if you start to define what does it mean, like, what are the outcomes that you're looking for? So for that example I used, I want to be able to handle the reality of my children's lives without feeling so overwhelmed that I feel like, man, I don't really even want to be fully present. You know, and start to define, for each, each of us define those recovery milestones. And they plateau and they keep going right through my I through [00:26:00] my own therapeutic work. I always I feel like man i've really tried really hard at therapy, but I always find something to do To work on life keeps throwing me more curve balls And then I have to define what I'm going to do with those things rather than stagnate. And that's okay. Um, but making it about that, what's the current challenge you have versus numbering days? Um, cause that's, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Graham Doerge: Sorry. Yeah. A hundred percent. No, no. And, and no, I totally agree. You know, that, that conversation of, you know, how long is this going to take? And hey, listen, it takes what it takes, you know, and, and it's like, you know, the only thing that I had to change was. Everything, you know, and, and those are all kind of, you know, slogans, whatever you want to call it, but, uh, that's just the reality. And the person that I am today has is so far from the person that I was when I was 25 years old. Right. And, um, you know, I really even look at it as like act one and act two, [00:27:00] you know, and, uh, you know, obviously I struggled in that first act and, but, you know. In the same respect, I wouldn't change anything because all of those things that I went through that I experienced, the hardships, that's who, that's who I am now. That's what made me who I am. And, you know, it's like, um, you know, people look at this, at this as being such a detrimental crisis. Right. And, and the reality is, I think a lot of us look back on it five, 10 years down the line and we're like, God, thank God that that happened to me because I have so much more empathy. I have so much more compassion. I have so much more just like awareness for, uh, How to treat people well, you know, and how to have a connection in a relationship and all those things, you know, and having fellowship. I mean, I, I think we're truly lucky to have, you know, the resources that we have an AA and these, these amazing 12 step fellowships, you know, it would be great if a lot of people had these, uh, these in their regular life. I think our world would be a much different place if people had a place to go like that. It's true. So that being said, I [00:28:00] also wanted to talk a little bit about, um, the pain management program that you guys have, because that's pretty unique to you all. There's not a lot of folks that are doing it in, in the way that you guys are. So, um, and that's a real problem. You know, we've got a lot of young adults or not young adults, sorry, older adults who are, you know, having chronic pain issues, they've had accidents, they've had falls, they get prescribed pills by doctors and before they know it. They're hooked. They're addicted. They're physically addicted and they don't know how to get off. Right. And a lot of times it's psychosomatic and there's, you know, a lot of complex, you know, issues with that. So, um, you guys have an incredible, uh, team, uh, handling that over there. So you want to dig into that a little bit? Brad Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, talk about coming by it fairly to your point, Graham is, uh, you know, you have a number of injuries. Doctors often are prescribing drugs that trigger something genetically that then triggers a whole addictive process that maybe that person wasn't [00:29:00] actively seeking, but literally fell into on the ski mountain or through playing sports or other things. And then they look up one day and they're, they're physiologically and psychologically dependent. And so for people that have that kind of chronic pain and addiction tendency, we've designed a program because they're, they're, uh, defenses and they're, the way to engage that crowd can be a little different, right? And the guy who is stuck in frat party mode or something like that, you know, it's a different presentation. Um, and we've had athletes and other things in that program. And really what we're trying to do is if they've, they've, Look at all the medical issues that are there, right? They've had the surgeries, things have been dealt with to maximum medical benefit, but the substance use is still there. We're looking to change their psychological relationship to pain. Right. And there's regions and neural pathways in your brain that could [00:30:00] just get. The end of this pain and this stress is through taking this medication. And the sad part is, you're right. But, the end result of, uh, tolerance and habituation to those medications that were designed to be short term to help you recover from a hip surgery, shoulder surgery, going through all the surgeries I've had, uh, uh, like, those things that were designed to be band aids on that. We're not designed to be lifelong medications in that way. 100%. And so we work. And Graham Doerge: in fact, they stopped working in a lot of cases, Brad Kennedy: right? Yeah, exactly. They, people become, there's a loss of like feeling psychologically and physiologically. Like what am I, why am I even taking this? Um, and so we work with people to identify the feelings in their body. Um, and really start to see are they fused to other things? Uh, that are fueling. I think we call [00:31:00] it like the psychological underpinnings of that form of addiction. So is it a fear that this chronic condition is going to get worse? Can we find exceptions to the pain through experiential activities, sometimes as simple as walking or water aerobics or hanging out? We have awesome trainers here that will find exercises that people can do is pain free as It is possible. We have hand bikes, things like that, where we're, we're trying to find the experience where you're moving, but you're like, not feeling that physiological pain. Graham Doerge: But so much of the time too, I feel like it's the fact that these people haven't been moving. Right. And you know, just doing some yoga and doing some movement and just kind of like restorative yoga, very light. Yep. It's getting the blood flow and getting and building some strength to whether it's, you know, I know a lot of people have these back issues and it's, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, your core, right? It's like we've got to build some strength there too. And obviously if there's a real injury, [00:32:00] that's one thing. But, um, doing that slowly and surely I know you guys work on that. Brad Kennedy: Yeah. When you, when you're having that experience of, Historically, I think it's called like health anxiety, right? If I work out, it's going to happen and it's grounded in 10 percent of reality or maybe more, right? But it has happened at some point. You need those corrective experiences. And so our. Schedule is chock full of experiential activities. We have no desire to be spa like treatment. I'm sure Graham's heard me come off on this before. That's not our market. If we're doing acupuncture, trauma informed yoga, it's all with the clinical purpose and intent of doing exactly those things that Graham is talking about. I think Mel pulls it. He had some line like, motion is lotion for your pain or something. It's going to help. Right. So. That's the idea, right? If you can get moving, you can get walking. We have equine therapy. We assembled this broad team to find a way in that [00:33:00] creates a connection and a common factor to help somebody move forward. Uh, the greatest indicator of therapeutic success is the attachment you feel to the team or individuals you're working with. And so we need to find, and it's not all going to work based on one personality type. So we have different people, different modalities that are going to try to find a way to resonate with that person to get the momentum going. Um, Graham Doerge: that's great. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. And, and we talk about that all the time about how, um, you know, cause we're doing so much aftercare planning here because a lot of the clients that are coming to us just have no plan, right? I would say probably 75 percent of them. And so our team in a seven to 10 day period is, you know, digging into the case, figuring out where the leverage is really working with the family to hopefully get them on to some sort of longer term, uh, residential and, um, and you know, we're pretty successful, you know, with that. But, you know, the reality is it's just, it is such a fight. It is such a battle, you know? Brad Kennedy: Yeah. It's Justin Mclendon: few and [00:34:00] far between, you know, we get that individual that comes in. That's, you know, pre motivated, if you will. Right. They're like, I know I got a problem. I want to make changes. I know I need to do treatment and you guys just need to help me figure out where that's going to be. Uh, and those are. And getting Graham Doerge: really granular with those referrals and saying like, I know Brad Kennedy at Driftwood would be a great fit with this client or I know, you know, whatever that is. I think, you know, pairing the clinical team with our, with our people is rather than just kind of throwing a dart at a dartboard and hoping for the best with a program. Right. And having that intimate knowledge of. of, of the people we're referring to and who's on the team and Brad Kennedy: all that. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: and, and to, and I know you guys do some assessment work out there as well, like inpatient assessment program. We do a similar type of program and I just feel, not to again, make this show about that, but I feel like. Making a referral is one thing, but like really taking the time to understand what's going on with the client. What is their story? What are their actual specific and unique [00:35:00] needs? Uh, and helping them understand what that is so that we can drive referrals based on what is going to be the most effective. Uh, you know, facility or, or type of program or treatment modality for that person, you know, as we're talking about pain, right? So if we're identifying that, you know, there's chronic pain and we're seeing those type of, you know, psychosomatic or that, you know, they've crossed that threshold into the place where, you know, the continued engagement in the addiction process is likely. You know, fueled by the anxiety and the fear and things like that, you know, finding a place like, like driftwood, a place that we know is really going to be able to specifically tackle that issue, or if we're seeing that, you know, a lot of these presenting problems that are kind of in front of this person is most likely due to all of this unresolved trauma and these traumatic experiences that they've experienced and just never really come to terms with or been honest with their self about, or they're just completely removed from how that's, you affecting them, trying to find a program that's really going to help them jumpstart that [00:36:00] process. And, uh, you know, so anyways, not to get on a tangent there, but there's a lot of programs in the country and across and in the world. Right. And, uh, I think giving a good referral is taking that time to understand what's going to be the best for that person. And then of course, the work of motivating that person to, to make that decision Brad Kennedy: for themselves. Right. I agree completely with what you guys are saying. My wife runs our assessment program. We do a full onslaught of psychological testing and we have psychiatrists, other docs that meet with them. There is not a program that is right for everyone and so I know there's no You're what you guys do if I think back to myself and what would have been cool for me as a 18 year old You should send me to an outdoor highly Experiential thing because I'm not gonna sit still long enough by group three to really listen be focused plus. I'm pretty avoid right so Only about half the people in our assessment program actually stay with us. It's not a designed, [00:37:00] it's designed to get them to the right experience. Um, and make sure that we have the driftwood experience. Does that fit? How do we assemble the team in the right way? How do you have EMDR for trauma a couple times a week? How do you work on? I rest, which is a evidence based practice form of yoga to really feel it in your body while you're doing this heavy duty lifting of looking at something extremely painful. So I think it's really great and cool that you guys look at it that way. Um, it gives me a Graham Doerge: hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, this has been so awesome. Can reconnecting with you. Do you want to just give our audience a, uh, your website and maybe have any, any social handles if you have them? Brad Kennedy: So I may be the world's worst marketer, so I can give you the website. And Graham Doerge: we'll put it all on the, we'll put it all on the, on the podcast. Everybody can find it there as well, but let's give it to him real Brad Kennedy: quick. Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, just [00:38:00] driftwoodrecovery. com. Um, I'm sure we have social media handles and I'm sure I don't know what they are. So I apologize. Graham Doerge: All good. All good. And we'll put, we'll put all of that online so that everybody can, um, can find driftwood. But, um, you know, always, always a pleasure. I always learn something from you whenever we talk. Um, you guys are really just doing revolutionary work out there and, um, just very supportive of what you guys are doing. Brad Kennedy: We feel the same about you guys and I just really appreciate you guys thinking of us and giving us some time to talk With you today. Thank Graham Doerge: you so much. Of course All right, brad. Have a great day Show Notes An engaging discussion with Brad Kennedy, the COO and partner at Driftwood Recovery, regarding the unique challenges and innovative methods in helping individuals overcome addiction. Brad elucidates upon the philosophy of fostering self-reliance in their recipients and emphasizes the importance of tailoring treatment based on individual needs rather than purely usage duration. The conversation also touches upon Driftwood's efforts to redefine and treat pain in relation to substance abuse, and developing a recovery plan in line with the individual's time, needs, and resources. Lastly, Brad highlights the significance of a supportive environment and empathy in recovery path. ⁠https://driftwoodrecovery.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiArfauBhApEiwAeoB7qOXweJVRcFC11zxuNjMg-J706Jckb3Rv1kAjF4JtTSKX_crYX9SsHhoC5vgQAvD_BwE⁠(https://driftwoodrecovery.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiArfauBhApEiwAeoB7qOXweJVRcFC11zxuNjMg-J706Jckb3Rv1kAjF4JtTSKX_crYX9SsHhoC5vgQAvD_BwE) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey! 00:00 Introduction to the Concept of Being Fully Present 01:15 Introduction of the Hosts and Guest 02:03 Personal Journey into the Field of Recovery 04:10 The Importance of a Strong Clinical Team 05:06 The Philosophy of Driftwood Recovery 05:29 The Concept of Attachment and Sanctuary Model 07:10 The Role of Spirituality in Recovery 09:39 Creating a Supportive and Hopeful Environment 14:52 The Importance of Trust in the Recovery Process 16:20 The Approach to Treatment at Driftwood Recovery 18:46 The Challenge of People Pleasing in Recovery 19:22 The Importance of Co-Creating Solutions in Recovery 20:21 Understanding the Length of Stay in Residential Treatment 20:38 The Importance of Aftercare and Maintaining Momentum 21:05 The Reality of Recovery: It's a Long-Term Commitment 21:20 The Challenges of Staying Present in Recovery 22:00 The Need for Support and Self-Sufficiency in Recovery 22:51 The Role of Therapists in Recovery 23:14 The Importance of Long-Term Recovery Planning 23:39 The Struggles of Discussing Long-Term Recovery with Clients 24:08 The Goal of Self-Care and Independence in Recovery 25:00 The Role of Personal Values in Recovery 25:22 The Problem with Measuring Recovery by Number of Days 25:40 The Importance of Defining Personal Recovery Milestones 27:58 The Reality of Chronic Pain and Addiction 28:40 The Unique Approach to Pain Management at Driftwood 33:36 The Importance of Personalized Treatment and Referrals 37:33 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes When Government and Recovery Work Together: Jacques Gilbert & Hollan Steen 32:29 min | Jacques Gilbert & Hollan Steen | Finding New Waters In this moving and unfiltered episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Mayor Jacques Gilbert and Hollan Steen, Director of Admissions at Asheville Recovery Center, to share the remarkable story of Apex, North Carolina’s Substance Misuse Task Force. The episode explores how a mayor and a formerly incarcerated man formed an unlikely alliance to battle addiction stigma, increase recovery resources, and create a more welcoming and inclusive community. They discuss the founding of the task force, the courage it took to start conversations about addiction in a conservative environment, and how their partnership has inspired other municipalities to take notice. It’s a powerful testimony to the healing potential of connection, humility, and action at the local level. Subscribe “A government official sitting on a couch with a convicted felon, saying together we want to change the world—that would’ve never happened in Apex. Until now.” – Hollan Steen Show Notes In this moving and unfiltered episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Mayor Jacques Gilbert and Hollan Steen, Director of Admissions at Asheville Recovery Center, to share the remarkable story of Apex, North Carolina’s Substance Misuse Task Force. The episode explores how a mayor and a formerly incarcerated man formed an unlikely alliance to battle addiction stigma, increase recovery resources, and create a more welcoming and inclusive community. They discuss the founding of the task force, the courage it took to start conversations about addiction in a conservative environment, and how their partnership has inspired other municipalities to take notice. It’s a powerful testimony to the healing potential of connection, humility, and action at the local level. ⏱️ Timestamps: • 00:00 – Opening & introductions • 01:00 – How Hollan & Jacques first connected • 05:00 – Breaking through shame and stigma in small towns • 07:00 – The courage to walk into the mayor’s office • 10:00 – Creating a task force with purpose and balance • 13:00 – Building Peak of Hope: The outreach mission • 17:00 – Lived experience and its role in public trust • 21:00 – The power of family support in launching the task force • 24:00 – From a hidden booth to community hugs: Peak Fest’s evolution • 27:00 – The stigma in Wake County vs. Asheville • 30:00 – Naloxone in Wake County Schools: A real victory • 34:00 – Hope, collaboration, and how to get involved 🔑 Key Points: • A mayor and a man with a felony conviction team up to build trust • Recovery stigma in Wake County and the courage to talk about it • The power of representation: why visibility matters in recovery • Supporting families with lived experience, not just data • Why this local model is gaining statewide attention 💬 Powerful Quote: “A government official sitting on a couch with a convicted felon, saying together we want to change the world—that would’ve never happened in Apex. Until now.” – Hollan Steen 🧠 Guest Bios: Jacques Gilbert Mayor of Apex, NC | Former Police Captain | Community Advocate Mayor Gilbert served 29 years in law enforcement before being elected mayor. He’s known for his commitment to connection, inclusion, and showing up for those who feel unseen. Hollan Steen Director of Admissions, Asheville Recovery Center Hollan’s journey from incarceration to recovery leader is a testament to the power of second chances. He now leads admissions at ARC and speaks nationally about stigma, advocacy, and lived experience. 🌐 Resources Mentioned: • Town of Apex: https://www.apexnc.org (https://www.apexnc.org/)(Search: Substance Misuse Task Force) • Asheville Recovery Center: https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com(https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com/) • Naloxone Programs in NC Schools • Circle of Security Parenting: https://circleofsecurityinternational.com(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) 📱 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. < Back to Episodes Sam Quinones: The Stories Behind America’s Drug Epidemic 1:07:22 min | Sam Quinones | Finding New Waters In this eye-opening episode of Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. From the rise of prescription painkillers and black tar heroin to the impact of fentanyl and methamphetamine, Sam highlights the systemic and personal forces driving addiction. This conversation is packed with insights into the power of storytelling, the importance of connection, and the role of hope in combating one of the most significant public health crises of our time. Subscribe “Addiction is a story of disconnection, but recovery is a story of hope, resilience, and rebuilding community.” – Sam Quinones Show Notes In this eye-opening episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with acclaimed journalist and author Sam Quinones, whose investigative work has redefined how we understand addiction and community resilience. Known for his groundbreaking books *Dreamland* and *The Least of Us*, Sam shares the intricate stories behind America’s opioid and synthetic drug epidemics. From the rise of prescription painkillers and black tar heroin to the impact of fentanyl and methamphetamine, Sam highlights the systemic and personal forces driving addiction. This conversation is packed with insights into the power of storytelling, the importance of connection, and the role of hope in combating one of the most significant public health crises of our time. --- ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming Sam Quinones and diving into his career as a journalist and author. - **[03:00] Early Career and Investigative Journalism**: How Sam’s work in Mexico shaped his understanding of the drug trade. - **[09:00] The Birth of *Dreamland***: Exploring the evolution of the opioid crisis, from prescription painkillers to black tar heroin. - **[15:00] Synthetic Drugs and *The Least of Us***: The rise of fentanyl and methamphetamine and their devastating societal impact. - **[22:00] Addiction and Isolation**: How the disconnection in modern society fuels substance use disorders. - **[30:00] Community Repair**: Highlighting stories of resilience and local solutions to addiction. - **[38:00] The Perfect Tuba**: A sneak peek into Sam’s upcoming book and its lessons on creativity, discipline, and recovery. - **[45:00] Closing Reflections**: Sam’s message of hope and advice for listeners. --- ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **The Evolution of Addiction**: Understanding the shift from plant-based drugs to synthetic substances like fentanyl and methamphetamine. 2. **Systemic Failures**: How pharmaceutical companies, the healthcare system, and organized crime fueled the opioid epidemic. 3. **The Power of Storytelling**: Sam’s unique approach to capturing the human side of the addiction crisis. 4. **Hope and Connection**: Why community engagement is essential to recovery and rebuilding lives. 5. **Creative Inspiration**: How Sam’s journalistic curiosity continues to drive his work on addiction and societal repair. --- ### Guest Bio: **Sam Quinones** **Award-Winning Journalist, Author, and Chronicler of America’s Drug Crisis** Sam Quinones is an American journalist and the author of four narrative nonfiction books, including the National Book Critics Circle Award-winning *Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic* and its follow-up, *The Least of Us: True Tales of America and Hope in the Time of Fentanyl and Meth*. With decades of investigative reporting, Sam has become a leading voice on the opioid epidemic, uncovering the systemic causes behind addiction and highlighting stories of resilience and recovery. A former reporter for the *Los Angeles Times*, Sam has written for outlets like *National Geographic*, *The Atlantic*, and *The New York Times*. Through his work, he continues to inspire change, emphasizing the role of community and connection in combating addiction. --- ### Resources Mentioned: - **Sam Quinones’ Website:** [https://www.samquinones.com](https://www.samquinones.com) - **Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic (Book):** [https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/)(https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/dreamland/)) - **The Least of Us (Book):** [https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/)(https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/](https://www.samquinones.com/books/the-least-of-us/)) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** [https://www.aa.org](https://www.aa.org) --- ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) #SamQuinones #DreamlandBook #TheLeastOfUs #OpioidCrisis #AddictionRecovery #FentanylCrisis #FindingNewWatersPodcast

Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, podcast hosts and private practice professionals, discuss addiction and mental health complexities, exploring the sober curious movement and the importance of a health and wellness-focused approach to substance abuse < Back to Episodes Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Redefining Sobriety 43:35 min | Robbie & Patrick | Finding New Waters In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters, host B. Reeves sits down with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, the hosts of the popular podcast Champagne Problems. Together, they dive deep into the world of addiction, wellness, and recovery, discussing how substance use can impact various aspects of life such as sleep, work productivity, and relationships. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "If alcohol never existed and it came out today. It would be a schedule one controlled substance." Patrick Balsley Podcast Transcript #007 Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Patrick Balsley: [00:00:00] Addiction is like the biggest public health crisis ever. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, right. You know, cause connected to our phone. Yeah. All Patrick Balsley: the cardiovascular stuff, all that stuff. It's all addiction. Yeah. All addiction Robbie Shaw: related. B. Reeves: Do y'all, in your work and through the podcast, maybe tangentially work with people or who have more process addiction, phone shopping, gaming? Robbie Shaw: I don't think that's as common to admit these days, and I don't think people think of it as, An acute issue. Right. I mean, it's, it's something that we've yet to see what its long-term effects are. You know, I mean, we're starting to see it in kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, anxiety and depression, you know, I mean, so partially, I mean, I think in the work that we do in knowing that, especially, especially cuz we, Patrick and I both work. Robbie Shaw: More in the holistic space, kind of looking at the entire wellness spectrum and, and screen time is absolutely one of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so we, [00:01:00] you know, we certainly talk about that and nutrition and, you know, exercise and all those things, but especially when you're talking with kids. But, but it's the same, same thing goes with like parenting. Robbie Shaw: I mean, it's like, You know, I was constantly telling my daughter to get off her phone while I'm on my phone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. B. Reeves: Welcome to Finding New Watchers. Our goal in creating Finding New Watchers is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. B. Reeves: We hope to shed [00:02:00] some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Well, I am, uh, very honored and privileged to be sitting here today. For this episode of Finding New Waters with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Bosley, they're the hosts of Champagne Problems, the number one rated podcast by Charlotte Magazine. B. Reeves: Um, I, uh, I've actually known Robbie for, since I was 10 years old, and Patrick, just for the last about three years, um, working in this industry and we're so honored and, and excited to have them here today. And we're not just gonna talk about what they do with their podcast. We do wanna talk about that, but also what they. B. Reeves: Outside and what they do for you, they're their day-to-day and, um, how they ended up where they are in terms of recovery and all that kind of stuff, so. Mm. Um, got three or four hours. Yeah, we do. You just said you had to be back by dinner, right? Robbie Shaw: That's right. 11 o'clock. That's right. All right, well, let's get going. B. Reeves: Well, um, anyway, thank y'all for being here and, uh, I'll just kind of turn it over to you for first, Ravi, [00:03:00] about what, what do you, what do you do other than, um, host champagne problems? Robbie Shaw: Well first, thanks for having me. Uh, we are equally as honored to be here with you B. Um, What do I do outside of champaign problems? Robbie Shaw: Um, I do quite a few things. Uh, I think as it relates to, you know, this conversation, I do have a private practice called even Tide Recovery, where I work as a recovery, sobriety and wellness coach. Um, That started, you know, years ago with some intervention services and now it's just kind of morphed into just doing coaching for people who are either looking to get sober, toying with it, or are sober and are looking to sustain, uh, as well as work with family members and loved ones of. Robbie Shaw: People battling, um, any level of dependence or addiction. Um, and then I also have a, a studio, an audio video production studio that we are positioning under the mental health and wellbeing space, as, you know, content creators and, and, uh, any production in that space. [00:04:00] So that is the, the gist of what I do outside of champagne problems. Robbie Shaw: Awesome. What about you? Patrick Balsley: So, um, I also have a private practice in Charlotte. It's called Sauna Counseling, and, uh, it's a group practice. I have a, a couple coaches, uh, an interventionist, um, couple therapists that work alongside me. Um, we do a lot of the same stuff Robbie does. Essentially, we serve the same population. Patrick Balsley: People that, uh, that are either in recovery or looking to be in recovery. Uh, we do a lot of pre and post what I call pre and post treatment work. Um, a lot of family coaching, a lot of craft style interventions where we kind of move families through the stages of change to get 'em where they need to be. Patrick Balsley: Um, in terms of engaging with resources, it's a lot of what we do. Um, and then families usually stick with us, so they'll go through treatment and then, you know, when they get. We usually work with the families while they're still in treatment and uh, and then when they get out and they're more [00:05:00] stabilized, uh, we can, you know, move forward from there and, uh, with a more of a long-term engagement strategy, build, build that trusting relationship. Patrick Balsley: Um, and then, um, I just opened a high-end recovery residence in South Charlotte called Sauna House. Um, it's a really small. Recovery residents, transitional living, um, program for men, uh, in early recovery. And, uh, we only have five beds and, um, it's something I've wanted to do for a really long time, so it's gonna be fun. Patrick Balsley: And then pretty heavily involved with Emerald School of Excellence, the Recovery High School in Charlotte. Big passion of mine. Um, and, uh, yeah, that's pretty much it. That's B. Reeves: awesome. I, um, you said something that I wanted to touch on, which, People who are kind of experimenting with recovery, the sober curious movement, if that's even, uh, you know, can be classified as a movement. B. Reeves: But it's something I've [00:06:00] noticed. And then when I first heard your podcast, I guess almost three years ago now, or at least two. Two, okay. Two. Yep. Um, that seemed to be kind of a, an ongoing theme, and I know it's evolved and changes and, but I, uh, I see it in my personal life and it sounds like you do too. B. Reeves: And I, you know, I wanna hear your thoughts on it too. Kind of what, what that really looks like. And, and does that ever, in your experience, turn into permanent sobriety? Robbie Shaw: Great question. So the word sober is what throws that off, right? It, it really, it's just people looking to eliminate things that are hurting them. Robbie Shaw: Right? So it's really falls under the more wellness, wellbeing space. Now, of course there's a wide range of people that might fall into this population that are exploring this stuff. So there could be people that are battling some level of addiction or dependence that sobriety might look more appealing for them. Robbie Shaw: But then I think the curious movement. You know that as, as it spreads [00:07:00] throughout the, a lot of our younger generations and a lot of our population in general is more around the wellness stuff. Just look the, the science around these substances, specifically alcohol, um, cuz that's the most widely used, you know, people are learning more and more about this stuff and they're starting to recognize that. Robbie Shaw: Their wellness strategies. Wellness goals are not being met or being altered or being influenced by something that is sold on every corner and in every household or most. And so they're just starting to say, you know, maybe this is something that's not serving me. And, and I think that is new. I think people have done that to a degree, but not in the space of alcohol. Robbie Shaw: Right. And that's the trend and that is the snowball that's ging out there. Our podcast is super excited about. I mean, we, we position ourself in the wellness space. You know, we're not, it's not about it. Are you an alcoholic? Are you an addict? Are you addicted? It's how is it affecting your sleep? Mm-hmm. Robbie Shaw: Your work productivity, your relationships, your parenting, you know, whatever else. And that way it opens it up to everybody and not just people that are potentially battling and [00:08:00] addictive behavior. Right. Substance. And I B. Reeves: think, I mean that, that news that came out pretty recently. All sorts of reports that moderate drinking is not in fact good for people. B. Reeves: No. Which have been the, uh, standard for thousands of years, I guess, Robbie Shaw: right? No, it's not. It's unfortunately it's not. I mean, you know, neither is, you know, a bag of Doritos four days a week, so, yeah. You know, we, there's relativity associated with this and we understand that we're not prohibitionist, but alcohol is, is bad for you. Robbie Shaw: No. Patrick Balsley: Bottom line. I mean, if we, if it came, if, if alcohol never existed and it came out. It would be a schedule one controlled substance. Oh yeah. It'd be illegal. Be completely illegal. Right. And it does more damage to your, you know, to your body and mind than pretty much any other drug other than probably meth. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's really bad for you. Robbie Shaw: That's not good for you. B. Reeves: Well, y'all both work with or, or between the [00:09:00] podcast and what you both do. Younger people. Not, not exclusively, but, you know, one of the things that I'm always, you know, I, I, I found recovery and got sober, you know, kind of from that average age I was 41. B. Reeves: And, um, but a lot of my friends got sober really young. And I, and I, we, I work, I used to work specifically with younger guys and, and, and women, you know, um, young adults. And just keeping them engaged. And my whole thing was always tr you know, let show people how to enjoy life. Mm-hmm. In recovery, not just tell 'em that it's possible. B. Reeves: And just wondering kind of what your experience has been like and what you would say to try to help keep younger people engaged who are who, who need to be in recovery and who are, or experimenting with it. Because, you know, they see their friends, you know, mostly not, and they, yeah. Have. Patrick Balsley: Acceptable. Yeah, I mean, I love the lens that we look at things from, you know, it's less clinical. Patrick Balsley: It's, it's more, more on the health and wellness side. I think. Um, we've done a really poor job historically of being able to articulate [00:10:00] what we're dealing with, um, and we've kind of pigeonholed into this pathological way of looking at this issue. Or pot or even a potential issue. Um, and it's stigmatizing, you know, so a lot of the young people, especially the ones that you know, may not be, you know, what we would consider. Patrick Balsley: You know, hit rock bottom or whatever, but have like some, you know, moderate consequences in their life due to their substance use. It's very difficult for them to align themselves with what we would typically call somebody with a severe substance use disorder, um, or like rob, like alcohol or alcoholic or addict. Patrick Balsley: Um, they just don't identify with that. So I think if we can aim, aim more towards articulating. Kind of dynamic in, in, in a more of a health and wellness way. They, they can roll with that. You know, it's [00:11:00] like, hey, let's, let's just take a look at how this stuff's affecting your life. Um, and not look at it more of like a, you know, from a shame, shame or guilt perspective. Patrick Balsley: Like, like what's your doing to your family? You know, it. Oh, let's, let's really do like a, like an assessment of how this is impacting you and how does it match up to your values. Like, how does this, How, how is this stopping you from getting where you want to go? And if you don't know where you want to go, let's figure that out first, you know? Patrick Balsley: Yeah. Um, Robbie Shaw: yeah. And then, and then, you know, more externally there's, there's, you know, two really big uphill battles that I think stand out and, and one is the effect of alcohol. It's, it's super effective. And, and people tend to kind of forget that or, or, or don't keep it front of mind where it's like, you know, why this, why that? Robbie Shaw: It's like, well, have you ever had a sip of alcohol? It, it works, right? It makes you feel pretty damn good. Uh, so there's [00:12:00] that. And we are creatures of, of, you know, living off reward systems and, and we like things that make us feel good and. So there's that. Secondly, it's a, it's a cultural norm. And and how do you fight that? Robbie Shaw: Yeah. I mean that's, that's the hard part is the normalization. That is like you, like you asked these kids that are just looking around and it's like, well, that's what you do to have fun. You know? That's what you do to be cool. That's what you do to act like you're famous. That's what you do to get girls, you know, that's what you do for all this stuff. Robbie Shaw: And, uh, how do you change that, you know? And, and we see it because we quit and now we can see. It's not necessary. It's not required to have fun and do all these things, but that's what you grow up seeing and thinking and, and becoming ingrained and unfor. I don't have the answer. I don't have the answer other than to just Patrick Balsley: show it. Patrick Balsley: I mean, one, one of the things that I try to do is, like I was saying, I try to get. Whoever I'm working with, cuz I work with a lot of people that are sober, precarious, that don't meet criteria for substance use disorders. Mm-hmm. But are, you know, having troubles with their relationship or [00:13:00] parenting or their, you know, got a dui and it's like, okay, now I'm starting to see a pattern here, need to get a little bit of help. Patrick Balsley: But like I, if, if you can paint a really clear picture of what you want your life to look like, like what is the ideal, you know, what do you really want, like, Really optimistically Paint that picture. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Do you wanna get drunk every night Patrick Balsley: or, yeah. And, and then, and then, and then you just, probably not you, you, you map the alcohol use on top of that and be like, is this. Patrick Balsley: Getting in the way of you reaching those goals or being that person that you want to be or being that you know dad that you want to be. And if the answer is, yeah, it is getting in the way, then that's a, it's a, it's a pretty rational way to, to look at it. And if they can see that, and that always usually develop some type of internal motivat. Patrick Balsley: No. Robbie Shaw: Oh, and sorry, but the, but the, the answers are in the results of that too, in the sense of like, when I think back to if someone were to do that kind of work with me when I was [00:14:00] 11th grade, 12th grade, what do you want? I want to be popular. I want to have the hottest girlfriend, and I want to be, you know, members of this group, and I want to go to this bar and I want to do all these things. Robbie Shaw: Like, that's what I want. What do you say to that? Patrick Balsley: I say, alright, well let's look five years further. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I wouldn't have an answer. So the, so then of course the work would be, Patrick Balsley: develop the answer. That's what we develop, you know? And then, and then we go even more macro and we say, okay, well this little vision that you have right now of what you want right now, how is it getting, how is that mapping on. Patrick Balsley: To the five year plan, right? Is you hanging out at bars with a hot girlfriend, you know, drinking every night? Is that gonna be sustainable to get you to what you want five years from now? Yeah. Yep. And Robbie Shaw: I love B. Reeves: that about just so simply just getting in the way. I mean that, yeah. When I look at my own situation, it was, you know, I, I had what would be called like a. B. Reeves: You know, a somewhat high, medium bottom, but it was more about just, it was just in the way of everything. Yeah. That was never gonna grow up. I was never gonna be [00:15:00] anything close to being successful on any level. The only way to measure any success in my life was just the number of years I've been alive. B. Reeves: And that was basically it. You know? It was just in the way. It was just in the way. Um, yeah. But these, the young guys, I, that's great. I mean, that. Love. Yeah. We Patrick Balsley: love that we sacrifice our dreams. Yeah. For, yeah. You know, for instant B. Reeves: gratification. Yep. Yeah. For sh. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I just think about you like I was had no, when people, I remember people would ask me, what do you wanna do in five years? B. Reeves: I would just laugh, you know? Robbie Shaw: Yeah, B. Reeves: this, yeah. I don't want to know. I li I let, Robbie Shaw: right. I don't wanna think about that. Yeah. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. One of the things too that I always tell people, it's like, stay present, man. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that really one of the main organic. Sources of positive emotion is moving towards something that we value and it's actually the process of moving towards like a target, right. Patrick Balsley: That is meaningful to [00:16:00] us. And it is like the, the, you know, the joys and the journey. Like that's actually true. Mm-hmm. And that's really the only thing that provides us with real, like healthy, positive emotion. Yeah. Is, is moving towards that. Um, and if we. No. What we're moving towards or we don't even have a target. Patrick Balsley: You're just like, it's meaningless. Yeah. But not, not only that, like you will end up being a victim of our society and like all the information that we're just getting bombarded with constantly of you, you know, you're not good enough. You know, here's something to make you feel better. Mm-hmm. You know, drink this, wear this, buy this, drive this. Patrick Balsley: You gotta have this. Yeah. And I mean that, you know, that's how. How everything is is so our economy's driven. Yeah. When I was, go ahead. Yeah, no, I mean, if you don't have that target to, to, to kind of [00:17:00] overcome every, all the pressures around you, your B. Reeves: toast. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean the, the trigger part of all this, I remember I, when I was in treatment, we had this lesson on what are, what are triggers? B. Reeves: And it was like, Hmm. Bars. Okay. Obviously, Parties. Okay. Obviously restaurants. All right, weddings, all right. And then it was like ATMs, exit ramps. I was like, okay. So literally everything, just gas, gas station bathrooms. Yeah. I mean, it kind of helped in a way that I just, on the spot was like, all right, so everything's gonna be a trigger. B. Reeves: So maybe nothing can be a trigger, but, you know, it's, it's not that simple. But, you know, when I'm spiritually fit, nothing is a trigger. But if, but if I'm not, then it is. But I was thinking about something I noticed when y'all first started. When you first started, uh, champagne problem. A lot of talk about just, you know, being everywhere, coming from all angles like we're talking about now. B. Reeves: But yesterday I was creating, uh, an, an invite for, um, I won't say the name of the, you know, the, an online, um, invitation generator, [00:18:00] um, for an alumni event we're having in May. And just the options to choose. They have hundreds of 'em. Oh, I'll Patrick Balsley: sit on that damn thing for like six, 106 hours. B. Reeves: 80 of 200 options have alcohol already. B. Reeves: Oh. You know, it's a template on the card, you know, bubbles, sip and see and bump and just literally everything. And it really made me think about kind of the, the early days least of champagne problems where just, it's just everywhere and it it, and it is, and I know, you know, just kind of. Learning to navigate that and understanding that. B. Reeves: And then kind of to your point a second ago, that all these things, whether it's the woman, whether it's beer, whether it's drugs, whether it's um, you know, promotion, just understand that, that this is all an inside job and none and all these external factors are all kind of, they're just external. You know, we're, we gotta learn how to be happy from Patrick Balsley: the inside out. Patrick Balsley: It's a dream killer man. I mean, it really is like, the way that you just described that, it made, it made me think about like how many people, and we don't just, we don't just do it with alcohol, we do it with any, anything. Sure. That's gonna make us feel better and [00:19:00] help us check out. But like we go to work or we have, you know, we have these daily stressors or these things that we think about that we want, or these things that we think about that we're not satisfied with in our life that we want to change. Patrick Balsley: Yep. And then we go home and we drink a couple glasses of. Or eat a big ass steak and we forget about it for the day. Mm-hmm. And then we wake up the next morning and we do the same damn thing and we do it every single day. And at the end of the day, instead of, you know, kind of letting this build and be like, I need to do something about this. Patrick Balsley: I need to change this in my life. We just drown it out. We just suppress it day after day after day after day until we, you know, steps. Heart attack or, yeah, it's, we're 75 and we're angry and divorced and B. Reeves: Right. It comes up, you know, Patrick Balsley: out, boy. B. Reeves: Yeah. And I mean, I do a lot of, um, you know, my job here, I do [00:20:00] most of the pre-admissions and you know, one of the questions we ask every single person is, do you drink or, or use to relieve mental health symptoms and whether it's anxiety or depression, or whatever it is. B. Reeves: And the answer is always yes. And then the answer is almost always, it's always something, um, along these lines to drown out. To not think about my problems, because that's how it is. Relieve stress. Yeah. And just, but like, we're just stuffing it down for the day. Yeah. Good. Every day it just avoiding it. B. Reeves: Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not going away. No. It's not going. I tried that. You know what? It doesn't work. Robbie Shaw: It doesn't, it doesn't work. It's amazing. It comes up and comes out in some way, shape or form. Yeah. And for a long time you can, you know, a lot of us can manage it. Yeah. You know, we can, uh, We can deal or we can set our standards right where they need to be. Robbie Shaw: Right. And may and, oh, I function, I function perfectly well because I do this, this, and this. Patrick Balsley: But I, I think what we're starting to figure out, Like, at least scientifically is that that all, all the, [00:21:00] that emotional discord and disconnect that, that we're drowning out is staying stuck in our body and it's manifesting itself and all kinds of totally physical health problems. Patrick Balsley: I mean, sure. Robbie Shaw: Well then you, I mean, try being a parent, right? Mm-hmm. And a, and a, a loving, supportive, healthy husband. I mean, that, that stuff doesn't come, you can't do all that when you've got turmoil going on inside of you. Yeah. You know, and then your kids all messed up and, oh, I can't figure out why. Patrick Balsley: It's tough, man. Patrick Balsley: And you deal with it for 30 minutes and then, you know, then drown yourself in booze for the rest of the night. You know? Yeah, that's B. Reeves: right. So what do you, what do you say, you know, to, especially to parents, you know what I mean? A big thing we talk about here a lot, especially on the podcast, we talk about it all day at work too, is, I mean, what I, you know, the biggest challenge we see with families is creating of and sticking to boundaries. B. Reeves: Mm-hmm. Which seems, you know, super obvious and I mean, because it's true and it is. But, uh, what else would y'all say, just in terms of, you know, with to [00:22:00] speaking to families, About their loved one and how they can best handle, and I don't just mean getting them into treatment, but just, you know, lovingly working to help them get better, you know? Robbie Shaw: Yeah. Patrick and I talked a little bit about this on the way up because it's, as you know, there is no simple answer to that. Right. And as much as we would love to just have a, here's what you do, every situation's different. Yep. Every parent is different, every family system is different every. Dependence or addiction to a substance or a behavior is different. Robbie Shaw: So it's, it's really hard to pinpoint a very, a generalized direction for that. Um, that being said, now what, what can you do, you know, initially, um, and we, we, you know, we had this talk with the, uh, church group recently, and, and a lot of kids were asking this, and a lot of parents were asking that, and it's, you know, the first answer was like, reach out for. Robbie Shaw: Yeah. Bottom line, like number one. Yeah, that's the most, do not try to [00:23:00] figure it out yourself. Do not just try things and do things based on how you think and feel in a moment. Like, seek out a professional and get some guidance. A good professional, Patrick Balsley: a good one. All right, and that, that, that's also. One of the issues too is that people go on Google, oh my God. Patrick Balsley: And they, you know, or they get caught up with some snake oil salesman, or, or, or even just somebody that doesn't, I mean, that's really trying to be good and has good intentions, but they really don't know what they're talking about and they get bad advice. Yeah. Um, or it's like, You know, oh, well my, my son struggled with this and this is what we did, and this is the treatment that we got him, so it's gotta be the right one for you. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. You know, and they're, they're not doing it intentionally, but I mean, you really need to have a good, you know, mental health professional that can do a really good assessment, um, and really gather all the information before any recommendations are made. I mean, that's, that is key. Well, Robbie Shaw: and. [00:24:00] You know, to get into the kind of details of that answer of the question is really around, like you said, all, all of the details. Robbie Shaw: And so what they're gonna try to figure out and what the parents need to know is that they need to educate themselves. Yeah. Uh, on the situation, the substance, the behavior, all of that. But also they've gotta do some work. Yeah. Because this is a system and you're the parent. Mm-hmm. And this is, You know, you need to go do this. Robbie Shaw: You need to go do that because you're doing this and that. It's what, what can I do? Mm-hmm. What am I doing? What's going on with me that's causing potentially some of this stuff? And what, what changes can I make? I mean, I use the example just in the sense of a marriage. Um, you know, how do you make a marriage work? Robbie Shaw: Well, it's it's not about. Letting the other person, uh, know what they need to do to change. It's doing what you need to do to be good with yourself in order to be there for the other one. And it just, yeah, I mean, it's like, it's B. Reeves: the same thing with parents, the [00:25:00] same thing as we're talking about with the external factors. B. Reeves: Yeah. With the, you know, the drugs and alcohol and food and whatever, and women and whatever it is. You know, even if that person's not the one who needs. Um, recovery or, or treatment. You know, we gotta, everybody's gotta do his or own her own Robbie Shaw: work, you know? Right. Yeah. I mean, how can you give, how can your child, um, trust you, believe you, you know, feel the love, feel the support. Robbie Shaw: Take the advice, take the guidance If you're not coming from an authentic place mm-hmm. Because you're out of touch with your own. Yeah. Right. They, they sense that when it comes Patrick Balsley: to boundaries too, I mean, that's really tricky and it's really individualized. So there's not, like, there's a big difference between understanding boundaries and understanding your boundaries. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Because if they're not your boundaries, you're not, you're, you're, you're not gonna be able to, they're not gonna be sustainable over time. Mm-hmm. Like I can tell a parent, [00:26:00] Hey, you gotta do this. And they may do it once. But it's like, hold on a second. I'm not ready to do that yet. Mm-hmm. You know, I can't set that boundary every day. Patrick Balsley: Right. And B. Reeves: then if they do it at once and then cave, Patrick Balsley: then, then, then, yeah. So I mean, that's why it's real. That's why it's different. It's different for every family. It's different for every parent. It's different for every situation. And I think that's kind of the message that that gets convoluted sometimes in terms of our field. Patrick Balsley: Um, where we have a very, you know, that idea of codependency and you're an enabler and you know, you just gotta do this and your kid will get better. It's like they can't do that. Mm-hmm. It's the same thing. It's like, it's the same dynamic of like telling a, telling a person that's addicted to drugs, like just to stop using. Patrick Balsley: It's the same, it's the same thing. Yeah. You know, just kick 'em out of the house. Yeah. Just kick 'em out of the house. Yeah. Yeah. That's easy. Yeah. Okay. The kid. That I love to death, but I, I think we don't talk about that as much as we should. [00:27:00] And, and it's very difficult for family members to figure out their own boundaries without the help of like a really good therapist or really good health professional. Patrick Balsley: And in order to figure out. Your own boundary. I mean, that takes some time and that's why I tell, I'm like, everybody should go to therapy. Yeah. Every single person in that family system ought to have a therapist that they're seeing and not to get advice, not for the therapist to tell 'em what to do. It's for them to build a healthy relationship with that therapist so they can figure out what their boundaries actually are. Patrick Balsley: That's, you know, it's B. Reeves: key. Yeah. So we have this new podcast here and it's inf. I know we've talked about this a little bit before, but will you just talk about the genesis of champagne problems? You know where it is now compared to where it came Patrick Balsley: from. Sure. It was my idea. Sure. Robbie Shaw: I gotta tell a funny story. Robbie Shaw: We went to [00:28:00] Florida and Patrick introduced me to somebody he knew and he goes, this is Robbie, he's on my podcast. I don't think he knew he did it and he didn't mean to, but I was like, oh, okay. I've meant to do that. It was hilarious. I don't remember that at all. Um, so yeah. So the, uh, It started with me wanting to write a book. Robbie Shaw: So alcohol has been a part. I say this all the time, alcohol's been a part of my life since the day I was born. And my mom hates hearing this story and she won't watch this, so it doesn't matter. But my dad was wasted on the night that I was born, and so he didn't make it to the, to my birth. I think he was at a Carolina State game. Robbie Shaw: Uh, and that's always been a funny story and all that, but honestly, it's a. Hurtful. Um, but you know, so from day one, alcohol has influenced me in some way. Then of course, I grew up in a very alcoholic household. I became addicted to alcohol. Now I'm in recovery, and then I studied it. Now I work in the field. Robbie Shaw: You know, it's just been a part of my life [00:29:00] from day one to today and. That doesn't make me unique. Um, but it does give me some passion around wanting people to know what I know. And I think a lot of that comes from working in this field and seeing so many people and families and, and things just destroyed by it. Robbie Shaw: And not that that's what happens to everybody that drinks, but it does happen to a lot of people and it just really, uh, pulls up my heartstrings. And so I thought if I could write a. Kind of sharing everything I've learned throughout all of my years and all that kind of, are we allowed to cuss all your wisdom? Robbie Shaw: Wisdom? We are. I think so. Do y'all cuss on this thing? Sure. Patrick Balsley: Probably not. We can edit it out. We can bleep it. Robbie Shaw: All right. I'll say bs. All that kind of, so all that, all that. Whatever. Um, And so I wanted to write this book. And so I, uh, started trying, uh, I'm not very good at sitting down and writing a book, it turns [00:30:00] out. Robbie Shaw: So somebody was like, eh, nobody's gonna buy it anyway because nobody knows you and this thank you, but, uh, okay. And they were like, you need to find a following, you know, write a blog, do a podcast. And I was like, Boom. I wanna do a podcast. Asked another friend of mine if he wanted to sit in my living room, a guy in recovery with me, and we were just like, man, let's just shoot the breeze. Robbie Shaw: You know, just talk about this stuff and just start talking about alcohol and just kind of what we've learned and you know, lots of insight and experience and wisdom and all this stuff. And he said no. Uh, and, and so I just didn't know what I was gonna do other than I wanted to do this. And Patrick and I had been introduced, you know, via like Instagram through one of our friends. Robbie Shaw: I think we even followed each other because we had both been told a number of times that we needed to meet each other, but we're both. Pretty stubborn and never really reached out to do it despite being told we needed to. And we just kind of like fi kind of watched each other from a distance. And then one day, I don't know what happened, one of us reached out and was like, man, let's grab some lunch. Robbie Shaw: We're, you know, it seems like we're supposed to do this. [00:31:00] And we did and we hit it off and we, um, You know, we've been in love ever since. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's been very, Patrick Balsley: I wanna, I, I wanna know who that first guy was. I never Robbie Shaw: heard that story. I don't know. There was somebody, I never told Patrick Balsley: somebody before me that Robbie Shaw: denied you. Robbie Shaw: Well, so we sat down at lunch and, uh, and I started talking about the way that I think about alcohol and the way that I feel like the, our society and culture thinks about it, and how there's just this terrible disconnect that's deserving so many. And Patrick's like, yep, yep, yep. He's like, all right, so I've got a podcast I want to do. Robbie Shaw: Would you be a guest on it? He's like, of course. Of course. And so that's how we started and, and we finish up lunch and we drive off and within 30 seconds I text him. I was like, How about co-host? And he is like, yep. And it just kinda went from there. Um, and so we just started talking about it and thinking about it, and we ended up, you know, getting production crew and, and it really just expanded. Robbie Shaw: But, you know, the, the, the value in, in telling all this is [00:32:00] really about the mission and how. Created the mission was a, was around everything we talked about at, at the beginning of this conversation in that we didn't want to talk about alcohol with shaming, with labels, with, in the, in the realm of addiction. Robbie Shaw: And, and do you have a problem? Because we knew that we weren't gonna reach a lot of people doing it that way. Nobody wants to be, have their finger pointed out. And that's, and whether we're doing that or not, that's what it feels like. Mm-hmm. When all you do is talk bad about alcohol. So we were like, Let's find a different way to talk about it. Robbie Shaw: What if we talk about it kind of through a wellness lens and then it's just like, Hey, yeah, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but here's the science and does this apply to you? And maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. And that's how we started it off. And it worked. It worked. People listen. Love it. It's crazy. I wanna hear your version of this. Patrick Balsley: Yeah, well, I cleaned up with everything. I, no, Robbie pays me reverse the roll small fee so he can pretend [00:33:00] it's his. Um, no, yeah, I mean, that was all right on. Um, yeah, I mean, this has been super cool. It was like, one of the things when I, when Robbie texted me and was like, Hey, will you be a co-host? I was like, you know, yeah. Patrick Balsley: And I, I. Expect it to, you know, move as fast as it did. It was like, you know, two weeks later we're in a damn studio with a production crew and there's cameras in our faces, our roll. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, dude. Um, so yeah, it, it's, it's been really neat to kinda. And, and thank God for Robbie and the rest of the team, cuz I don't do anything except really show up and, and, and talk. Patrick Balsley: I mean, they do all the back end stuff and take care of all the marketing and production and all that. So it's been very, very, I've had a really easy, easy ride. Yeah. Um, but it's just been awesome to be a part of it and. You know, I feel like, I feel like we've, we've touched a lot of people that, that wouldn't, [00:34:00] um, wouldn't have received that message otherwise. Patrick Balsley: Um, I'm, I'm very aligned with our mission and in this like, more inclusive way to look at this. Um, cuz I've always been kind of obsessed ever since I got into recovery. Um, I was just kind of really taken back by all the. Barriers that are in place for people to engage in getting help and all this kind of like, things that are non-starters for a lot of people. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Um, not to mention the fact that we should be addressing stuff way earlier than we are. Mm-hmm. And we don't do a good job of getting people engaged, um, and services and prevention and, you know, early intervention. It's like, you know, one of the one. Analogies I always hear people use, it's like we, we treat addiction and alcoholism. Patrick Balsley: Like, like if you're like a cancer patient instead of [00:35:00] like pre-screening or mm-hmm. Or treatment when you have stage one, it's like, oh, we got no hold on. We just gotta wait for stage four cancer. Mm-hmm. To come in before we come back and see, before we do any treatment. And it's, it's always just been insane to me the fact that there ha, we haven't come up with a way. Patrick Balsley: To get people engaged in early, you know, and do early interventions that actually work instead of like trying to pigeonhole somebody that's like a moderate, you know, may meet criteria for mild or moderate use disorder. And it's like, oh yeah, but yeah, you really got, you gotta say you're severe, you gotta call yourself an addict and mm-hmm You gotta sit in all these groups that you don't really need and you know, And you gotta go to these meetings that you, you despise and hate. Patrick Balsley: Well, how do we come up with something that meets those people where they're at mm-hmm. That they can engage in? Um, cause we just, we don't have a lot of stuff like that. And I feel like there's a new wave of, of services and, and [00:36:00] information and ways, you know, to help people that are kind of in that space. Patrick Balsley: And I think, you know, that's kind of been one of the things. We've been able to do. B. Reeves: It's a great analogy though about the, you know, Yeah, it's nuts. No screenings and all of a sudden you just just wait until it's, yeah. You Patrick Balsley: know? So acute. Well, you got the thing in the doctor's office now where it's like they hand you that damn card with the blunt crayon that's like, oh, you've thought about, you know, hurting yourself today. Patrick Balsley: And then, you know, you fill it out and then the doctor just like slings it on the table. You know, Robbie Shaw: it's, hold on. Great. I Patrick Balsley: haven't had the pleasure. Yeah, you haven't had that yet with like the, with like the stringy thing on it, you know, the, you haven't, you haven't seen that in the doctor's office? Maybe I go to a, I'm due for a physical though. Patrick Balsley: Crappy Doctor Hope. Get it this time. B. Reeves: Um, that's, yeah, that, that's so true. I, um, yeah, we just, it, and it reminds me of also like kind of the older way of doing detox too. Um, waiting until the person is miserable, then treating [00:37:00] the detox symptoms. Sure. You know, instead of like we do here, getting ahead of it right when they get here and making them comfortable right away. B. Reeves: Not to promote what we do here, but it did make me think of that. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Um, well, and just that, I mean, that opens up a whole can of a conversation of, of. Prevention versus treat. Yes. Right. I mean, that's, that's our society announce the prevention. Patrick Balsley: Yeah. I mean, yeah. We're trying to put you out business. B. Reeves: Well believe we, you know, I say this at least, you know, five times a week. B. Reeves: I hope you never darken our doors here. Yeah. Talk to about this all the time. And I mean it, you know. Yeah. But yeah, I Robbie Shaw: mean, uh, but that's just the way we are, man. That's, we have an obese culture. Yep. But we don't change our food system. No. Right. Patrick Balsley: Yeah, and we don't. And we don't treat Robbie Shaw: that addiction, treat sickness, not Patrick Balsley: prevent it. Patrick Balsley: You know, we don't talk about that. I mean, addiction is like the biggest public health crisis ever. Yeah, right. You know, Robbie Shaw: we're addicted to our Patrick Balsley: phones, all the cardiovascular stuff, all that stuff. It's all addiction. Yeah. All addiction Robbie Shaw: related. B. Reeves: Do y'all, in your work and through the podcast, maybe [00:38:00] tangentially work with people or who have more process addiction, phone shopping, gaming. Robbie Shaw: I don't think that's as common to admit these days, and I don't think people think of it as an acute issue. Right? I mean, it's, it's something that we've yet. To see what its long-term effects are. We will, you know, I mean we're starting to see it in kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, anxiety and depression, you know, I mean, so partially, I mean, I think in the work that we do in knowing that, especially, especially cuz we, Patrick and I both work. Robbie Shaw: More in the holistic space, kind of looking at the entire wellness spectrum and, and screen time is absolutely one of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so we, you know, we certainly talk about that in nutrition and, you know, exercise and all those things, but especially when you're talking with kids. But, but it's the same, same thing goes with like parenting. Robbie Shaw: I mean, it's like, you know, it's constantly telling my daughter to get off her phone while I'm on my phone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:39:00] B. Reeves: Well, uh, give me, if you would, both of you, just an example or two of people who you have reached who there've been just a positive outcome from someone, whether you knew 'em before or not from Robbie Shaw: Champion, from the podcast. Robbie Shaw: Yeah, man. Um, I mean, we've had a ton. Yeah, tons. Like we get, yeah. I mean, I get emails and messages. I mean, not daily. It's not you. Packed, but we get really meaningful notes, you know, verbally and through, you know, digital messages of, oh man, I came across this and I was looking to to dial it back. Or I was looking to learn a little bit more about, you know, the correlation between anxiety and alcohol and your podcast did this for me. Robbie Shaw: And, and we get that a lot. That's awesome. It's really cool. I Patrick Balsley: mean, I, it's very gratifying. I've run. Multiple people that I had relationships with in high school or college where I hadn't seen him in 15 or 20 years. Mm-hmm. Like I went to a, I went to a [00:40:00] alumni like football game at my high school and a guy that I hadn't seen in 20 years. Patrick Balsley: It was actually a guy in my classes, little brother mm-hmm. Who was like four years younger than me. Walks up to me and he shakes my hand and he's like, Hey man, I just wanna let you know I haven't had a drink in a year and a half. That's awesome. And he goes, I didn't go to treatment. Like, I'm not, I never considered myself an alcoholic. Patrick Balsley: Um, and, and I, I don't, I still don't. But, but you know, I started listening to your podcast and really started to question how alcohol was affecting my, my life. And I decided to, to put it down. And he was like, you know, it was all cuz of listening to your show. And, and that's, I've had multiple, and I know Robbie has too, people that have told me that, oh, it's, uh, it's pretty really B. Reeves: cool. B. Reeves: Cool. Yeah. What do you say to somebody like that? Um, other than, I'm so glad to hear that, but I mean, in, in terms of sustained recovery, if somebody's not, you know, does it need the full Monty, you know, of like, what I need, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] Which is a lot of work for me to. Sober and relatively serene with somebody who's Patrick Balsley: not, they figure it out. Patrick Balsley: Cuz usually, you know people in that, I'm not saying that demographic, but people that don't meet criteria for severe issues or they're, they're doing it because they can see the correlation of their alcohol use and having a negative impact on their life once they actually stop drinking. Mm-hmm. And they feel the full effects. Patrick Balsley: And they can like tell, I, I had lunch with a guy the other day that told me that he quit for a year. Um, just a part of a like challenge. Mm-hmm. And then he had like two beers one night as he reintroduced it and woke up the next day and was like, never felt like total crap. Mm-hmm. And he never realized like how much of a negative impact it was having on him cuz he was doing it every day and he was so used to it. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. It's like, it's like cutting Robbie Shaw: out sugar and then sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Balsley: It's like, [00:42:00] yeah. You feel like crap. Yeah. So it, it's. Once you have, if you have somebody that already has their kind of life together and they're, and they have some sort of like mo external motivation to engage with life. Mm-hmm. Um, once they cut alcohol out and realize like how much more engaged they can be and how much more productive they are, how much more present they are with their families, they start to realize like, oh my God, I've been stuff suppressing all. Patrick Balsley: You know mm-hmm. Emotions and unhealthily managing stress. And now I have all these new outlets to manage this stress, and they kind of get really curious about it. Mm-hmm. And they become, you know, more engaged in more holistic stuff. Mm-hmm. It's like all the, now I'm gonna start a meditation practice. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. Now I'm gonna do some ice baths and you know, now I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna go exercise more next month. I'm gonna, you know, start training for a marathon. And then they start, all this stuff starts to snowball and they see the positive impacts of all this stuff. And it all started with them changing their relationship to alcohol. Patrick Balsley: Mm-hmm. And they feel [00:43:00] better, they start to realize that their relationship with their family's better, their marriage is getting better. Mm-hmm. Um, they're more productive at work, and then it just, it starts to build. Yeah. Robbie Shaw: Love. All good. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having us. B. Reeves: Yeah. Show Notes Title: Robbie Shaw & Patrick Balsley Introduction: In this episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, the hosts of Champagne Problems, the number one rated podcast by Charlotte Magazine. They discuss the complexities of addiction and mental health, as well as their experiences working in the recovery and wellness space. Summary: Robbie and Patrick work in private practices where they serve people who are either in recovery or looking to be in recovery. They also host Champagne Problems, a podcast that positions itself in the wellness space, discussing how addiction and substance abuse affect wellness goals such as sleep, productivity, relationships, and parenting. They talk about the sober curious movement and how it's becoming more prevalent among younger generations, with more people recognizing that alcohol can negatively impact their overall wellbeing. They also touch on the importance of articulating the dynamics of addiction and substance abuse in a more health and wellness-focused way, rather than using stigmatizing and shame-based language. Their approach involves looking at how substance use is impacting a person's life and how it aligns with their values. Main Points: • Addiction is a complex issue that impacts wellness goals such as sleep, productivity, relationships, and parenting. • The sober curious movement is becoming more prevalent among younger generations, with more people recognizing that alcohol can negatively impact their overall wellbeing. • Articulating the dynamics of addiction and substance abuse in a more health and wellness-focused way can help reduce stigma and shame associated with the issue. • Looking at how substance use is impacting a person's life and how it aligns with their values is an effective approach. Outro: To learn more about Robbie and Patrick's work, visit their private practices, Eventide Recovery and Sana Counseling, or listen to their podcast, Champagne Problems. Thank you for listening to Finding New Waters, a resource for families navigating the complexities of addiction and mental health. Robbie Shaw Links: https://champagneprobspodcast.com(https://champagneprobspodcast.com) Instagram(https://www.instagram.com/champagneprobspodcast/) Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-champagne-problems-podcast/about/) Facebook(https://www.facebook.com/ChampagneProbsPodcast/) Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/c/ChampagneProblemsPodcast) Patrick Balsley Links: https://champagneprobspodcast.com(https://champagneprobspodcast.com) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/sanacounseling)Sana Counseling Instagram(https://www.instagram.com/sanarecovery/) Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sana-house/about/)

Gain insight into addiction treatment levels with Justin McLendon, our Executive Director, and Ryan Jarrell, our Continuing Care COO. They share personal experiences and expertise, stressing the importance of understanding the care and support needed for addiction recovery. < Back to Episodes Ryan Jarrell & Justin Mclendon Levels of Care in Addiction Treatment 27:56 min | Ryan & Justin | Finding New Waters Join our Executive Director, Justin McLendon, and our Continuing Care COO, Ryan Jarrell, as they discuss the levels of care in addiction treatment and the continuum of care. Ryan is a specialist in substance use counseling and mental health counseling, while Justin shares his personal experience with addiction. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "One of the things that I we provide at the detox level of care at New Waters Recovery and other institutions like us, is we're able to provide the sense of safety for the client and the client's stakeholders, their family, and loved ones." Ryan Jarrell Podcast Transcript Justin and Ryan Audio Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] All right guys. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today at new Waters Recovery. My name's Justin McLendon. I'm the Executive director here at New Waters Recovery. I'm also a dually licensed therapist. I specialize in substance, substance use counseling, and then also in mental health counseling as well. And I am joined by Ryan Jarrell, who is our continuing care coo. And Ryan, we thank you for being on the show today, man. Absolutely. Ryan Jarrell: Thank you so much for having me, Justin. I really enjoy the fact that we're able to have these kind of conversations and provide education because it's such a befuddling kind of world to anyone who's an outsider, you know? Absolutely, completely Justin Mclendon: agree. So today we're gonna be focusing on The levels of care and addiction treatment. And we're also gonna be talking about the, that continuum of care and how that, that those level of levels of care can kind of flow and how they're intended to work. So Ryan, so maybe we could start off with just identifying what those levels of care Ryan Jarrell: are. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, like I really can't stress how difficult this can be to the [00:01:00] outsider family who maybe hasn't had substance use or maybe never had treated substance use in their family before. And we're battling against like Hollywood's depiction of what the levels of care are, right? Absolutely. Which is usually like a cut scene. Sunny room where someone's doing yoga and then someone's sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting that doesn't resemble any Alcoholics Anonymous meeting that anyone's ever been in. Right. So how we kind of like battle that image is by trying to provide these kind of this kind of education. There are different levels of care. And a lot of times they're defined partially by insurance companies, partially by best practice, by clinical visions of institutions you know, a addiction treatment. HA has had a really interesting development and I think like the evolution is very inherent in, in how it presents today. I'd like to go kind of sequentially through these levels of care from highest level of care, with the highest level of medical, medical acuity all the way down. Sure. And the first is detox or medical detoxification. And this will be a period of time that will be focused really deeply on the medical aspects of [00:02:00] of someone who is withdrawing from a substance their, their body has gained a physical dependence towards mm-hmm. These can be integrated into residential treatment facilities, or that can be standalone facilities like New Waters is mm-hmm. . We really can't underscore like how important detoxification is. And Justin, you know, from your own personal experience that someone who is going through detox from something like alcohol or benzodiazepines, they're not just uncomfortable, they have a real risk of dying. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's a, that's a thing, right? I mean, you do in A lot of times I think people think that they can just simply stop using a substance. And sometimes a lot of people seek this type of care and support on an outpatient basis. And I think the reality around it is when the level of severity of that use, especially with certain substances get to a certain point it becomes a, a potential medical emergency. Sometimes if says, if someone doesn't have the correct supervision and medical care on board to make sure that we can, that we can [00:03:00] Avoid those potential risks that surround that. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I think we provide at the detox level of care at New Waters Recovery and other institutions like us, is we're able to provide this sense of safety for the client and the client's, stakeholders, their family, and loved ones. Absolutely. You know, and allow them to know that they are in a safe place, being closely medically observed. detox. I think a lot of times people have the conception and I will really put myself out there. Like I had the conception that sure, I would go to detox, I would have a, a physical malady dealt with mm-hmm. I would have a, a physical illness and a physical dependence removed and then I would be able to go on about my life. This is something that we've seen. Empirically again and again is, is not best practice for treatment. While a detox will deal with the physical dependence to a substance and hopefully make you comfortable and give you an introduction in solid clinical backing the real work is gonna come afterwards. The real work is gonna be dealing with the mental. The emotional coping systems that you have built in place that have led you to use substances again and again. [00:04:00] Absolutely. And a detox is normally a week, and it's just not the right place to do that kind of therapeutic work. So residential level of treatment is the next level of care. Mm-hmm. This would be inpatient treatment. You, there would be some medical staff, certainly available. You'd see. Depending on the institution of course, but you'd see psychiatrists, nurses would be present, et cetera. This could last anywhere from 30, 60 to 90 days. And this is where you do the real work, both yourself and your family in healing and learning coping skills from this disease. Mm-hmm. . Justin, as someone who's worked in these kind of settings before as clinical director, I was wondering if you could, you know, share with us a little bit also about, Clinical aspects of, of that timeframe specifically. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, Ryan, you know, it can be, you know, kind of traditionally we think about these residential levels of care of being like these 28 day programs or 30 day programs, but to your point, right, sometimes it's important for someone to actually remain at that level for longer. Right. And I think nowadays, maybe in the past 10 to 15 years or so, we are seeing more of these kind of 90 day models of [00:05:00] residential treatment emerge. And I think that's really based on a lot of research that's showing. For certain individuals longer periods of time in a controlled environment to where, you know, there's simply number one, no access to those substances. And then also just being able to do some deeper work with 24 hour support can really increase suc, you know, chances of successful outcome in the, in the long term. . But a lot of that work would be, you know, group therapy, individual therapy integrating the family into that recovery process, providing education not only to the client but to the family. And again, being able to dive in and do some really deep, intensive work in an, in an environment that is controlled, right? Where someone doesn't have to necessarily worry about having a a pretty. Pretty big emotional response to any particular clinical intervention. And then that being a trigger for them to fall back into old patterns or behavior or to isolate or to do something that's not gonna necessarily be productive in moving them along. That, that continuum of [00:06:00] recovery doing that work in a, in an environment to where, if they do have a strong emotional response, there's clinical, there's medical staff, there's support staff to be there with them to encourage them to make sure that they're safe and that to make sure that we keep them on that track of moving forward and not necessarily regressing. Right. Because I think a lot of this work. That that has to happen is is deep. It is difficult. And I think a lot of times, you know, for someone that's really struggling in those early stages of recovery our, our first response can be, going backwards, right. Kind of reverting, if you will. Right. So that's why I think it is very important. It's very important that we give ourself that opportunity to get the help that we need in an environment that can support us until we are stable and ready enough to kind of step down to our lower level of care. And then we have the skills in place at that point to where we have a better chance of being able to navigate things in the, in the real world, so to speak. Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. I, you know, I, I know from my own personal recovery experience, like I really struggled with relapse for a [00:07:00] period of time. Mm-hmm. . And the issue is that I would get, I would get one bad thought and I couldn't get it out of there. And drugs and alcohol were easily available to me. Right. And that was it. And I think something that I think maybe you know, People don't necessarily give enough credit to when they're looking at residential treatment is you get to spend 36 or 90 days without the temptation of alcohol and drugs. Right. And it seems so basic, but we can't underscore how important that is. Absolutely. Because there are well-meaning people out there who spend 45 days doing fantastically, and on the 46 day they get a bad idea that they just can't shake, they're not in a healthy environment and they can end up doing some real damage. You know, Absolut. We've learned so much about the treatment of addiction and, and I think one of the things that I, I really love about working with, with professionals like yourself is just that we really believe that people deserve the best. Level of care possible for themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. So residential provides not just that kind of physical removal from alcohol, the, the clinical work that you described it, it also provides a venue for families not only to get [00:08:00] some rest and take a step back, right. And know that their loved one is in a safe place, but ideally engage in some of that family programming so that everyone can engage in this process of recovery both separately and together. Absolutely. Post, post residential. You know, people will, will be discharged. There is, of course, you can't remain in an institution forever. You have to venture out into the world. So how do we best equip people to do that? Well, there are differing ways. You know, even though it may not be done directly, a lot of times in these treatment settings, people will take stock of, of recovery capital. The things that, the resources that you have to bear that would seem to lean towards having a good outcome for long-term sobriety and recovery. Depending on someone's family situation, they might be recommended to move into a. Situation. Mm-hmm. , especially for people who live alone people who don't have those methods of accountability built into their domestic situation, or they're just not coming back to a healthy environment. Sober living can be an excellent environment, not only to have that accountability built in, but develop a community of recovery, which is a huge, huge recovery capital supplier. [00:09:00] Absolutely. And this would usually be paired. Continued group therapy, either at a php, a partial hospitalization program, which is a super scary word when I tell people that they're not familiar with it. But this is outpatient programming, multiple days a week or an intensive outpatient that's a lower level of care. Again, it would be outpatient group therapy that meets several times a week. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: and real quick. Just to add a little bit more color there. So that partial hospitalization or what we, you know, the acronym is php. Typically that is more days, right? More days, more clinical hours than an intensive outpatient or also what we call an I O P. And then for partial hospitalization, I believe the regulations are, I think it's 20 to 25 hours a week of clinical services. So typically you're seeing that as a, you know, a multi-day process. You're either there kind of Monday through Friday. Sometimes this, this can even be a seven day a week thing. But as you said, Ryan, that is on an outpatient basis, right? Whether you're living at home and you're coming in, you know, to the, you know, the facility or the building [00:10:00] for those services. Or if you're living in a sober, sober home environment and then coming in, you are, you are coming in each day to a facility to receive those services and then essentially returning to the community in, in some way. as to where intensive outpatient or i o p is usually about nine to 10 hours a week. So similar, right? You're in the community, you're either living at home or with a loved one or whatever that looks like, or living in a sober home and then coming in during during the day to that, that intensive outpatient program where you're receiving and usually, you know, kind of a standard. The way that most people do this is it's about three days a week. And you usually do three, three hour groups. Kind of spread throughout the week. And then typically these places are also, whether you're at the partial hospitalization level of care or the intensive outpatient level of care, you're also doing some individual therapy and typically some continued family work as Ryan Jarrell: well. Absolutely, absolutely. Providing those kind of measures of support and building a community around you and just getting to know [00:11:00] what this real life will be like. Hopefully with the coping skills that you've built up in your residential treatment and detox day. Mm-hmm. You know, the final kind of level of care if it would be outpatient care. Probably continuing to see an outpatient therapist, continuing to see a psychiatric provider for medication management. Ideally, one who is specializes in addiction and definitely one who is aware. of your substance use disorder. Right. And the history of it and engaging in community support groups, whether it's 12 step groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous Dharma or Refuge Recovery or Smart Recovery. Mm-hmm. , just trying to find that independent. That independent community that can help support you? You know, I, I reali, I mean, as we've talked about this, we've talked about highest level of medical acuity detox. Mm-hmm. and residential treatment, 36 year, 90 days, i o P or php. That's an additional length of time. And then this final outpatient level, and I'm sure plenty of people who are new to treatment. Who are maybe exploring the idea of, of wondering what they can do to separate substances from their lives. Or thinking like, how am I gonna have the time right to do this? Right. You know? [00:12:00] And I was wondering if you had any, any thoughts, Justin? Because I, I know that that's a common thing that people bring when they become overwhelmed by the amount of time they'll have to invest in it. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. And I think, and we could, we could kind of speak to each level of that. So, you know, I think, you know, backing up to those, those inpatient levels of care, which are detox in that residential treatment, which is, you know, underneath the detox level it is true, right? You can't continue to work and, and do those things and also be in a residential program. It's just those two things typically can't coexist. There are some programs out there, you know, for someone that may be a high level executive or someone that doesn't. The luxury of being able to completely sever ties with their, with their job temporarily so that they can get the help they need. There are some programs that are available that you can continue to have your electronics, you know, if you need to log in and take care of some payroll and things like that. Those things do exist. We actually offer some of those things here at New Waters Recovery. If, if that is a true barrier for someone to be able to come in and get the help that they need [00:13:00] there are programs available that can allow them to not work necessarily full-time, but still be able to keep some touch with those responsibilities that they have in their life and get, you know, take care of those things. So, so it would take, I think for most individuals it would take a willing. And also the support, you know, from work and from family and friends to, to provide the space for that individual to, to step away, you know, for potentially months at a time to focus on their health. Right. And I'd like to compare this to, because we do view addiction as a, as a, as a neurological disease, right? Mm-hmm. a neurological disorder, and, and I. A lot of times people struggle with that idea of kind of pulling away from work and other family and life responsibilities to focus on their treatment. But I think it, it's, it's just very interesting to me that if someone was. Was given a potentially terminal diagnosis, a medical diagnosis and told that they were gonna need to do that same thing to pull out of work and other life [00:14:00] responsibilities to focus on that treatment. It's just interesting to me how people are usually more likely to, to find the ways to get that, that freedom, if you will, so that they can focus on that medical disease. , but not so much for the addiction and the mental health. But I would say that it. Just as important, right? If for us to live a you know, a life that's hopefully full of freedom and peace and happiness and, and just a healthy lifestyle. In order for us to accomplish that, sometimes it is just crucial for us to find a way to let people around us, whether that's our employers or our families, support us in a way that we can step away and we can truly focus on our, on our, on our health. Right? Absolutely. And I think also when we step down to that, that partial hospitalization, that intensive outpatient level of care it's, it's a lot of time. I mean, when we're talking, you know, anywhere from 10 to 25 hours a week. That is a lot of time. I think there is a way for someone to maybe kind of return to work or still be able [00:15:00] to engage in some of those family and life responsibilities but being realistic about the fact that it is not going to look the same as if we were not engaged in treatment. So it is important again to allow the people around us to support us, give us the space that we need to, where we can continue to focus on our treat. But then also I think as part of, of stepping back into to life and finding ways to cope with those, maybe also taking on some of those life responsibilities or maybe even taking on some of that work again. but being realistic that it's gonna probably have to be more of a part-time type schedule. Right? Absolutely. I think it's really at the, at the intensive outpatient level, there's more freedom. You're doing 10 hours a week of clinical services. I think most people find at that level of care, they usually can reengage in work and other responsibilities that they need to attend to. But it's not until you get to that true outpatient level where we're talking. You know, one to five, if you will, hours of clinical services a week. At that point, [00:16:00] I think most people are able to find, they're able to, you know, work full-time jobs, you know, attend to their families and their life responsibilities also be able to continue that treatment that's so necessary Ryan Jarrell: for them. Absolutely. I mean, it just strikes me that really at the end of the day what we're dealing with is, is battling an, it's an uphill battle against stigma. Yes. And the deep. Shame and guilt that accompanies this. And just like you said, if someone had bone cancer, right. You know, no one's weighing the days. No one's saying, I'll go in for seven days and then come back out, but I'm not doing the 30 day program. Right. Like, it's just not gonna happen. And, and there's a real a real sad and sick belief at the core of this is that yeah, people with addiction do not deserve the best treatment possible. Justin Mclendon: It's unfortunate, Ryan Jarrell: but it's true. PE people with addiction deserve to kind of suffer through things. and and, and just kind of soldier on regardless. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I can't tell you, and I know you have this experience as well, right. When people are ready for help, regardless of what they've gone through before you see employers, you see family members, they stand up with open arms to help this person on the next level of care. [00:17:00] Absolutely. Because at the end of the day, we, when you're deeply involved with someone, when you see someone suffering you, you want them to get better regardless of the nature of the valid. Absolutely. So it's, it's sad when people have this kind of sense of sh of shame and guilt that is, is blocking them from, from accessing that care. You know, isn't your life worth engaging this process regardless of the amount of time, regardless of if it was a year, you know isn't it worth doing this so that you can be fully present for others in your life and, and enjoy the fruits of it. Yeah. Yeah, Absolut. But it's just, it's, it's just an unfortunate thing, you know? And it's something that, you know, I know I had to personally struggle with and, and many others on our staff had to as well. Absolutely. I Justin Mclendon: Oh, please go ahead. I was, I was gonna say, I think another thing that's important for us to touch on is you know, and Ryan, I think you've probably seen a lot of this as well, is, you know, when someone does get to a place where they're ready to take that step into treatment. You know, similar to what you were just saying, I think there's a lot of stigma. I think number one, it takes a lot of courage to be willing to [00:18:00] take that step and just even to entertain the idea of, of seeking treatment takes a lot of courage, I think. But I think something that a lot of people struggle with is this idea of like, I can just. put forth maybe some minimal effort or that I can find this kind of one, you know, magical thing that I can do and I can spend a minimal amount, a minimal amount of time on myself and my treatment and just kind of, you know, quote unquote cure this situation and then I can just get back to living my life and everything should be, should be fine. Mm-hmm. And I, and I wonder, Ryan, if maybe you could speak to the importance I think that we see, especially working in this profession of, you know, having a solid assessment and then following through with this continuum of care in a way that you can truly get the treatment that we need. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, Ryan Jarrell: absolutely. I mean, I think at the end of the day, what we're talking about is just best practice, right? We're talking about meta studies that have been done on people all across the country suffering from this disease and. , what is the number one best track of treatment? You [00:19:00] know, I, I tell people in my office all the time, you know, if you had cancer, I'm not gonna recommend the third best chemotherapy. I'm not recommending you the second best course of treatment. I'm gonna recommend to you the best to fight against a fatal malady. Mm-hmm. , I think it's a essential, you know, an essential part of the recovery process. Well, a befuddling part of the recovery process is there was a point in time in which I had become unwittingly my own worst. And that was in ways that I knew very directly and ways that I did not know very directly, especially surrounding my fears and anxieties and these fears and anxieties over issues real or imagined would often the strain of those would lead me back to a bottle or a bag, you know? Right. And so I think I needed a period of threshing time. I needed a period of time where I really needed to not make so many decisions for a little while. Yeah, because sometimes my decisions were good in those periods of time where I was struggling to maintain sobriety, and sometimes they completely befuddling wound me back up at the bottom. So just surrendering a little bit and allowing others to guide you. To some [00:20:00] areas that might be, to guide you out of a blind spot is, is just really, really important. In all other areas of our life, we're gonna seek medical professionals constantly. And yet for some reason when it comes to behavioral health and mental health, there's just so much resistance there, you know? That's true. Yeah, I think following that continuative care is just essential. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. And, and to your point, I think. . There's just a pro, a profound amount of research. And also I think just professional experience that we see these things live out in real time that, you know. We want to take this serious. We don't want to continue to bounce in and out of treatment or to struggle with this disease for any longer than is necessary. Right? And I, I think it's important that when someone develops the, the courage and the willingness to take that step, that that's, you know, so important step of, of seeking treatment for their self. It is important to just hit it with everything they have, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And and again, I, I think we're, we're. So much research show that if we start at the most appropriate level of care, whether that be [00:21:00] detox, residential that we start at that appropriate level of care and that we follow the recommendations from the professionals involved and slowly step down through those levels of care to make sure that we are receiving not only just in, you know, a timeframe but levels of intensity to make sure that we are truly getting all of the treatment that we need. It just literally is going to greatly impact the, the chances of being able to be successful in our recovery moving Ryan Jarrell: forward. Absolutely. There's nothing more heartbreaking, and I've seen this multiple times where we have some wind in my office, we have a suggested level of care for whatever reason they're resistant, right? Mm-hmm. , and they end up leaving, and then we get the. Three weeks later, a month later, five weeks later, and they're sitting right back in my office again. Right. You know, we've had experiences like that recently and mm-hmm. and it, you know, to cut through that kind, the level of sadness and shame and guilt that they talked to me and there's no, there's no judgment here. You know what I mean? Right. We've all made plenty of, plenty of mistakes in the past, but I just wish I could erase [00:22:00] the pain and the damage that they've done in those months prior. Right. And more often than not, they do end up engaging in the appropriate level of care, but they've, they've. It's cost a lot, both resource wise and personally in the interim. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. So, Ryan, what would be one thing if there was a family member or you know, a potential identified client that was, that was listening or watching this, this episode, what would be like one thing that you would have them take away from all of this? Ryan Jarrell: Yeah, I think one thing that. I would really want them to take away from it would be to know that it's all right to ask for help. And I think there's a really deep belief, and it sounds really cliche, and like it would, you know, come on the underside of a yogurt container or something like that, . But that, that, that it's okay to ask for help. And if you can't speak openly and transparently about something to somebody, you gotta find someone to speak that stuff to. And it's probably because there's a lot of shame and guilt surrounding that issue. So to be candid with someone, ideally a professional about where you. Yeah. There's a a great deal of relief that [00:23:00] can come from that and they can guide you on a course towards getting some real some real healing and wholeness, you know? Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Well said, Ryan. Well said. I guess in, in closing, I would say especially again, you know, to anybody that's listening to this or watching that is a family member that is maybe looking into treatment options for a loved one, or maybe you're someone that is struggling with addiction. And you're just trying to find out what's the first step? What do I do? I think, you know, my biggest recommendation is the best place to start is a conversation with a professional. Right? And here at New Waters Recovery, I mean, we have those conversations on a daily basis. All you have to do is just call us and we will free of charge. I mean, we will have a conversation with you, we'll d we'll we'll gather some history on what's been going on and we'll try to help navigate, whether that's with us or with another provider that is gonna meet your needs. I think that is the best step. And that's not only with us, I think any other high quality program around, whether that's in the state of North Carolina or across the country or the world for that, That is always the [00:24:00] best, the first best step. And to, Ryan, to your point, I think having the, the willingness and the courage to, to ask for help can give you the opportunity to get a professional on the phone or, you know, on an internet chat or whatever that is, to be able to just start that conversation about like, hey, You know, openly and honestly, this is what's going on with me. And, and let someone provide that guidance about what that, that first step can look like. And really, in my opinion, I mean, taking that first step and being willing can open the doors to, to so many other things, to where we just don't have to struggle with this stuff for the rest of our life. You know? Ryan Jarrell: Absolutely. I, it, it's, it's another cliche, but it's always been very powerful to me. You know, someone told me one time, listen, you never have to drink ever, ever again. And it's, it's, it's so simple and such a basic fact, but if you are struggling with this or you have a loved one who is struggling with this, they never have to do it ever, ever again. And they have the chance to put this thing in the ground, you know? It, it's just gonna take s some willingness and, and and some, some real open-mindedness. Absolutely. And willing to go to some [00:25:00] places, some scary places, both as a family and, and as an individual. It's the best. You know, I say this all the time, right? It is the best time in the history of man to have addiction issues. Mm. And if you're in America, you're in the best possible country to receive really quality services. So if you're struggling with this or thinking about it, just take advantage while you can, you know, you don't have to live in that. Confusing morass of gross emotional weight of I've engaged in this compulsive behavior that I don't like. You don't have to live in that again, again and again anymore, Justin Mclendon: you know? Absolutely. Completely agree. Well, Ryan, I, I appreciate you hanging out with me and taking some time to discuss this topic. I know we both feel very passionately about this specifically, and hopefully anybody that's watching or listening, hopefully everybody's learned a little something from this. And again, if there's any way that we can help that is literally what we love to do, right? So we'd love to help any way that we can. Thank you guys. Ryan Jarrell: Thank you so much, Justin. Yeah. Show Notes Join our Executive Director, Justin McLendon, and our Continuing Care COO, Ryan Jarrell, as they discuss the levels of care in addiction treatment and the continuum of care. Ryan is a specialist in substance use counseling and mental health counseling, while Justin shares his personal experience with addiction. They stress the importance of understanding the levels of care, starting with medical detoxification, which is crucial for someone who is withdrawing from a substance and can be life-threatening. This show will help you gain a better understanding of addiction treatment and provide a comprehensive overview of the care and support needed for those struggling with addiction. Tune in to learn more.

n this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. < Back to Episodes Breaking Barriers: Dr. Brian Licuanan on Family Interventions and Navigating Addiction Recovery 40:02 min | Dr. Brian Licuanan | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. With a focus on combating manipulation, setting effective boundaries, and fostering unified family support, he offers practical strategies for creating lasting change. Listen in as Dr. Brian discusses his approach to helping families regain hope and navigate the complexities of resistance in treatment. Subscribe "You can’t love someone out of their disease, but you can love them enough to set boundaries that save their life." – -Dr. Brian Licuanan Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, Dr. Brian Licuanan, a licensed psychologist and author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, shares invaluable insights on supporting loved ones through addiction and mental health challenges. Dr. Brian explains how family systems, boundaries, and assertive love can reshape the recovery process. With a focus on combating manipulation, setting effective boundaries, and fostering unified family support, he offers practical strategies for creating lasting change. Listen in as Dr. Brian discusses his approach to helping families regain hope and navigate the complexities of resistance in treatment. Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction: Welcome and overview of the episode. • [01:00] Meet Dr. Brian Licuanan: Dr. Brian introduces his clinical practice and his work with families and individuals in recovery. • [04:00] The Importance of Assertive Love: Redefining tough love and the role of family boundaries in recovery. • [08:00] Shutting Down Manipulation: Dr. Brian explains how families can address and counter manipulation by loved ones struggling with addiction. • [13:00] Empowering Families: Why the family unit must operate as a cohesive team with shared responsibilities. • [18:00] The 80/20 Model: Understanding the balance of legitimate struggles versus manipulation in addiction. • [24:00] Overcoming Resistance: How providing choices and addressing barriers increases the likelihood of treatment acceptance. • [30:00] Recovery as a Lifelong Journey: Dr. Brian discusses his broader view of recovery as a path for all, not just those with addiction. • [36:00] Closing Thoughts: Dr. Brian shares resources and how to access his book and services. Key Points Discussed: 1. Revising Family Strategies: Families often feel helpless, but Dr. Brian emphasizes that changing strategies can yield better outcomes. 2. Boundaries with Compassion: The importance of setting clear, enforceable boundaries while maintaining love and support. 3. Shutting Down Manipulation: Identifying and countering the tactics used by addiction to perpetuate destructive behaviors. 4. The Power of Assertive Love: Balancing love with rules and accountability to support recovery. 5. Hope for Families: Why families must stay hopeful and unified to influence their loved one’s path to recovery positively. Guest Bio: Dr. Brian Licuanan Licensed Psychologist and Author Dr. Brian Licuanan is a licensed psychologist based in California, specializing in addiction, mental health, and family interventions. With nearly 20 years of experience, Dr. Brian has worked extensively with families to navigate the challenges of supporting loved ones in recovery. He is the author of How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment, a step-by-step guide offering practical strategies for families to foster change. Dr. Brian’s expertise spans private practice, community outreach, and educational talks, all aimed at reducing stigma and promoting mental health awareness. Resources Mentioned: • Dr. Brian Licuanan’s Website: https://drbrianlicuanan.com • Book - How to Get Your Resisting Loved One Into Treatment: Amazon, Barnes & Noble Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn • Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. SEO Hashtags: #AddictionRecovery #FamilyIntervention #MentalHealthSupport #DrBrianLicuanan #FindingNewWatersPodcast #AssertiveLove #ManipulationInRecovery #BoundariesInRecovery Powerful Quote: "You can’t love someone out of their disease, but you can love them enough to set boundaries that save their life." – Dr. Brian Licuanan

In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Chris Budnick, Executive Director at Healing Transitions, delves into the heart of addiction recovery. His unique insights, rooted in both personal and professional experiences, offer a captivating look into the challenges and triumphs of overcoming addiction. Join us for an inspiring journey of resilience and healing with Chris Budnick. < Back to Episodes A Recovery Journey with Chris Budnick : A Healing Transitions Story 50:24 min | Chris Budnick | Finding New Waters In this engaging episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Chris Budnick, Executive Director at Healing Transitions, delves into the heart of addiction recovery. His unique insights, rooted in both personal and professional experiences, offer a captivating look into the challenges and triumphs of overcoming addiction. Join us for an inspiring journey of resilience and healing with Chris Budnick. Subscribe On Personal and Professional Growth: "I've really been thrilled to see how we've invested in mentors for employees and how that's benefited them their personal recovery their professional development" -Chris Budnick Transcript Chris Budnick B. Reeves: [00:00:00] Good morning, everybody. This is B Reeves. I'm the director of business development here at new waters recovery with my colleague, Thomas Hogshead, who is the director of admissions and also facilities. And our guest today is Chris Budnick, who is the executive director at healing transitions. Here in Raleigh Chris Budnick: morning guys morning. Thank you for being here. Thanks for the invitation i'll B. Reeves: just start off by saying that thomas Came to new waters from working with chris at healing transition So i'm going to let him say how that Thomas Hogshead: transition happened I think Chris and I met back in 2008. I was introduced to you all by a mutual friend, and fresh out of recovery, and ended up working at Healing Transitions for 10 years, and the rest is history. And how did you find your way B. Reeves: into this world, and specifically Healing Chris Budnick: Transitions? Yeah it's, A pretty interesting story that's recovery based, so, I'll try to tell it very quickly, [00:01:00] but childhood, some difficult things, difficult head injury, depression, divorce with my parents. Grew up going to counselors, went to my first mutual aid meeting when I was 16, went to outpatient treatment when I was 18, inpatient treatment as I was turning 19. I majored in psychology as an undergrad and with a little bit of recovery I started to understand that I chose psychology as a major because I was familiar with as I was getting ready to graduate, I didn't really know what it meant to have a psychology degree. And my advisor said we could have you do an internship. And so, of the three places I interviewed the only one that accepted me was a residential. Treatment program in Rhode Island. And so, I did an internship there in September of 1993. And then in December of 93, they hired me and in 94, I interviewed for some jobs in North Carolina. I was seeing a young woman who was going to school down here and The [00:02:00] job that I ended up ultimately accepting was at a place called Charter Northridge. When I showed up for the job interview, the director of nursing was incredibly underwhelmed by me. My experience, my lack of credentials, but with me being from Rhode Island, she wanted me to come back to meet the woman whose position I was interviewing for. She was going from inpatient to outpatient. And she was from Rhode Island and homesick. And so, that led to a second interview and within that first 90 seconds of meeting Nancy learned that she worked at the treatment center I'd gone through and had known my outpatient counselor and so forth. This woman in Rhode Island, Chance Encounter leads me to get hired at Charter Northridge. The person she was going to work for was the director of the outpatient program and he would become the founding executive director for Healing Transitions, Dennis Parnell. [00:03:00] And Dennis we got to know each other and when he was new in his role, reached out to me about doing my social work internship with him in 1999 and then he ended up hiring me in 2000. Tragically Nancy who was the woman from Rhode Island her son is on our detox wall having succumbed to his alcoholism. So just lots of intersections and it was for me being able to look in the rear view mirror and see power greater than myself, playing a role in guiding and directing my path. Yeah. And B. Reeves: that leads me to something is, I know something we want to talk to you about today is, we. All three of us are in recovery and we all work in the treatment field and kind of the beautiful part of it and then the tragic part of it is not only seeing, clients come and go and sadly not make it and die, but ones who are really close to, but also in our, in our personal recovery people, we know from [00:04:00] the rooms, the 12 step rooms and beyond who don't make it. But then also the beautiful thing, like I know you talked about somebody that, That we all three know who came through healing transitions and is now a judge. So we talk a little bit about like just the, the real ups and downs of not only being in recovery, but working in the field. Chris Budnick: Yeah. Thanks. It's something I've I spent a lot of time wrestling with and thinking about I am 33 years in my own recovery, which seems unfathomable, when I came into recovery, the thought of staying for a year, seemed to. Like, that seemed like a good goal. The work that I started in the settings were very crisis stabilization based. And so, what I found to be very different about working at Healing Transitions is that It's a long term program. It's one where you may work with people multiple times. And it's one where, for me, I've developed [00:05:00] relationships with people that, are approaching, 23 years next month. And the other thing that's a real strength for us is, 75 percent of our staff currently are alumni of the program. So you go from somebody who's showing up to receive services to becoming a colleague, and so there's this kind of always this. Evolution of what the roles are and the relationships and because of that and because of the just the volume of people that we serve we're subjected to some of the most inspirational stories and some of the most heartbreaking losses and those losses are, compounded by. Knowing their families, in many situations seeing the pain that and suffering that, family, friends, a lot of our alumni who work for us experience. So it's just, it's a little bit of extreme emotions that. encounter in more of a short term kind of crisis [00:06:00] stabilization when I worked for Holly Hill and Dorothea Dix and Charter Northridge and things like that. And so, I'm frequently You know, contemplating, like, how do you, how do I personally stay in this work and how do I support others and, a couple of things from a work perspective is, we created informed consent for employment for any applicant to really think about. Here are the potential benefits and potential risks that come from working in this environment that not only may you encounter, crisis situations or loss of life, but you also may come to care for people very deeply who then end up passing. On the other hand, you may see somebody who was so hopeless and understanding that person's family mother was really hurting for them to see 13 years later the mother holding a Bible while he's being sworn in as a, as an attorney, by the state bar. So, so we tried to do that and we've really [00:07:00] tried to invest in mentoring Part of my, professional experience has been seeing some of the risks that can happen when you become a siloed organization and how important it is to be connected to others outside of your organization for perspective to avoid developing, a myopic view or lens of the problem and the solution and to get outside perspective and support. And so I've really been thrilled to see How we've invested in mentors for employees and how that's benefited them, their personal recovery, their professional development and so forth. And, I think, Thomas knows, very well, we lost somebody very close to us in August and it was something that I think many of us anticipated and, Bill White talks about anticipatory grief for families, like when you're anticipating the loss and what that's like to live with that and It's very complicated, somebody that first met in 2006, somebody [00:08:00] that, worked for somebody who I knew their family in different ways and got to know their their son and where I ended up, at the end of a 17 year relationship was like, all I can do is just, let him know that he's loved. Like, I love you, and if today's a good day, I'm going to celebrate that. And it was interesting leaving his service which was like the 60th funeral I'd been to for one of our alumni. I ended up stopping at a restaurant with co worker of mine just either was really hungry, but just needed some space to cause I'd sat in that same I'd sat in that same funeral home, uh, two and a half years before when they buried his sister. And I'd sat in that same funeral home almost three years ago when they buried his fiance. All from overdoses, right? And so we're sitting at this restaurant [00:09:00] and just trying to get some space and so forth. And we look over and there's two alumni and they're grabbing something to eat and they're getting ready to go pick up guys for a meeting, and then a third guy walks in who's an alumni who had just celebrated. 12 years of recovery that week and then I realized that one of the two that are earlier in recovery, about three years in, I'd connected one of them with the guy with 12 years because this guy was on his path to school and wanted to figure out a pathway from Wake Tech to NC State and this other alumni had done it. And then I was just freaking amazed this week to learn that this guy started working for you guys three weeks ago. That, Thomas Hogshead: wow. B. Reeves: I want to let Thomas talk to you more directly about this, but you said 75 percent of your employees are alumni of Healing Transitions. We, I don't know what the percentage of them here is, but it's Thomas Hogshead: fairly high. Pretty high. We're about 25%. Yeah. Yeah. So the intersectionality between providers in a different [00:10:00] space, we're all tied together in a profound way. Yeah. B. Reeves: And our Healing Transitions alum employees are, they're amazing. I don't want to say they're better than anybody else because that, that, but they are. They are amazing. Chris Budnick: We appreciate it so much. It, it warms my heart, right, to see the opportunity that's being afforded to so many of our alumni that are in recovery through coming to work at New Waters. It's really one of the It's an uplifting thing. It's all of all those things that you need to counter the laws, right? You start putting in the other ledger column, like you just B. Reeves: said just that encounter in the restaurant It was this sad thing think about the 60 funerals you've been to been in the exact same funeral home But then not only was it countered when you run into that There's the twosome at the table, but then the other guys coming in. Yeah, we were on their way. It's just Yeah, it's a, it's definitely like a ledger, of the pluses and minuses, unfortunately. But you mentioned Bill White and I don't know too much about Bill White. I know that he was a,[00:11:00] wrote the book on treatment. And I also know you're a big historian of N. A., Narcotics Anonymous. Will you talk about? Chris Budnick: Yeah. So, this is interesting. The way that pharmaceutical companies used to engage with doctors was often, like holding events and, really treating them well, so, a physician, psychiatrist friend of mine was being asked by, I don't know, Pfizer or something to host a event at a Mad Hatter's, and this was like maybe around 98. And I crashed it and and I, it was interesting cause I watched like the doctors that are getting so many like items to go and just the culture around this sort of stuff is they're marketing their medications. And I got a 25 gift card to Barnes and Noble. That was my gift for coming to this event, which I wasn't invited to. And I used it to buy slaying the dragon the history of addiction treatment and recovery in America. And It was a profound read, and [00:12:00] that was my introduction to Bill White. It was my introduction to his writings and his trainings and his writing style, which was very accessible. And I had emailed with him some as I started teaching at NC State and just wanting some feedback on some topics and things like that. buT what struck me was a couple things. This kind of overlapped and coincided with starting at the healing transitions, which at the time was the Healing Place of Wake County. And it was very much an AA oriented. group of people that were involved with the founding and very heavy AA orientation. And that led me to become interested in learning more about the history of AA, in addition to learning about everything that Bill had written about in Slaying the Dragon. And and then also just noticing some of the additional stigma that individuals who are addicted to drugs other than [00:13:00] alcohol face in society. That even, it's not uncommon for somebody with a history of addiction if they're trying to explain part of their history to substitute, well, I have a history of alcoholism because it's a little more, people can tend to wrap their head around that or be more accepting or less judgmental of it. So I became pretty interested in just the experience of individuals with addiction and the, How more marginalized and stigmatized they have been historically than just people with alcoholism. And so I, I got very interested in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I became very interested in something called the Narcotic Farm, which was one of the few resources that was really created as an alternative to federal prisons for individuals who are addicted. And it was because in the 20s the wardens were saying, these Addicts who were coming to our prisons or disrupting our prisons. We need to get these addicts out of our prisons. People saying they're the worst prisoners you can have. And so they set up these two narcotic farms. [00:14:00] The medical director for our detox for many years, Dr. Al Mooney, what I came to discover is that the things I was researching around the narcotic farm his father had been a patient there. He had first gone there voluntarily and then he'd been probated there in 1959. And The whole story of the first alternative 12 step group to Alcoholics Anonymous, one called Addicts Anonymous that formed in 1947. It had been formed at the narcotic farm and Dr. Mooney's father, John, had been a member of that group and that was his introduction to recovery. And what was most fascinating about it and listening to a talk by John Mooney is that when he went there the doctors said, we're going to give you the psychotherapy that we have, the best. Psychotherapy we have to offer, but you need to agree to stay for however long it takes. And he knew he was only probated there for a certain period of time and he knew he wouldn't stay. Once that was expired and so he turned it down [00:15:00] and they said if you're not going to take the best then the only other thing we can suggest is you go to the Addicts Anonymous group. And so what's fascinating about this to me is that the Addicts Anonymous group introduced so many people to Alcoholics Anonymous. And also led to the creation of other 12 step groups for individuals addicted to drugs other than alcohol. So, by Dr. John Mooney turning down The doctor said is the best. he Actually got introduced to something that turned out to actually be a lifelong solution for him. Did Addicts Anonymous become Narcotics Anonymous or were they two separate? Two separate things. Does that exist today? Addicts Anonymous? Nope. There's been, no, that Addicts Anonymous does not exist today. It existed while the narcotic farm was open from 47 until the early late 60s. But a lot of people left there and if they couldn't get assimilated into Alcoholics Anonymous they would start things like Drug Addicts Anonymous in Chicago [00:16:00] in the early 50s, Narcotics Anonymous in New York, which that branch folded and so forth. But all this stuff was It was just incredibly fascinating to me and also making me think about, the experience of folks who were addicted to drugs other than alcohol in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and what their. what their fate was, which was usually one that did not end in recovery and also robbed their families and their communities of the benefits that recovery can bring. I ended up getting introduced to Boyd in 2007, as he was interested in learning more about the history of recovery for individuals with addiction. We. We're, particularly focused on the narcotics anonymous story since that's a more it's one of the largest fellowships for individuals addicted to drugs other than alcohol and and in 2009 in trying to make some sense and get some guidance out of our[00:17:00] consulted with Bill White and he said he wanted to collaborate with us. And so that led to a article in 2011 on the history and culture of Narcotics Anonymous. And then mostly rewarding for me was he asked us to contribute to the second edition of Slaying the Dragon. And so when I had gotten the first edition of Slaying the Dragon, it had a chapter on alcoholic, Alcoholics Anonymous and it had a page and a half on Narcotics Anonymous. And what he wanted was to create a chapter of its own substance and so we were able to contribute that to the 2014 second edition of Slaying the Dragon, which was really pretty remarkable and And then aside from that, like, Bill's just had a tremendous influence on so many people on our field and helping us think about how to better serve. individuals, families, and communities and for me what my experience, my entry into the field and what my early experience was was really this acute [00:18:00] care response to a chronic condition and there's so many kind of mistakes or things that I feel like I've had to unlearn and a lot of his teachings helped me a lot of his writings helped me. With some of that unlearning and to, come to recognize multiple pathways to recovery and to think about different recovery management principles, things that have had kind of a profound influence on how we have evolved our services and our culture at Healing Transitions. Thomas Hogshead: And to that point, Chris, I think about the chronicity. And we had a detox client at HT that I think he had come through. You can speak to the exact count, but the families and the frustration for the staff, for their loved ones and you made a good point. To staff that was frustrated. He said, well, what if that was your father? Would you have that same level of frustration as he came in and out and in and out and this individual has a unique story? I didn't know if you could touch on that for a little bit. [00:19:00] Yeah, Chris Budnick: you know what's there's a lot of dynamics to that So staff frustration is a universal thing that has gone back decades and decades. The Narcotic Farm started off with this kind of vision of we're going to bring people out to a farm with fresh air and activities and we're going to invest all this into them. And the Narcotic Farm staff got very disillusioned because people would end up using when they went back to their communities. And there was You know, 95 percent relapse rate of people that went to the narcotic farm. So there's this long history of people saying, well, why is this person back here? What, what isn't working? We've given them this, we've invested in this and they seem to be doing well and so forth. And so, understanding people's communities, Bill talks about Don Coyus and this idea of treating the soil and a healing forest and analogies about that. And, we. [00:20:00] Bring a tree into good conditions. It does well. We put it back in its old conditions and it starts to deteriorate and we seem surprised. anD then just with the individuals that we serve, regardless of the community, they all differ too, so, one of the things that was very helpful to conceptualize was the idea of problem severity, problem complexity, and recovery capital and how those, uh, impact folks. But it's You know, it's an understandable, but also difficult thing for the staff who get frustrated. So a lot of times for our staff, this unique frustration was, I'm an alumni of this program. I did these things that were laid out. It worked for me. If this person just does what I did. It will work for them, and that may not be how it's articulated, but that's really the understandable way of trying to make sense of why am I in recovery, but this person's not. And so there's a couple individuals that come to mind. One is a person [00:21:00] is Thomas was referring to who had just You know, so many frequent detox admissions and then another was one who, when I was doing a crisis intervention team training this week, I always describe like some of these real extreme cases and how perplexing they can be. And I always, I use code. Which is I say, I'll say, the kind of guy that when he ends up at wake med, they take the hand sanitizer out of the bay and then like the paramedics in there, like I'll watch. And on Tuesday, the two paramedics were like, Oh yeah, like they know who these people are. And then I was able to say, Oh, by the way, that. That guy's got three years of recovery. He's in Kentucky right now, doing well. The other guy, in 2012, he stayed with us for 90 days. That was working then. Yeah. And And it was like he's never stayed for 90 days before and so what was going on? Well, the staff were doing different things with him. They kept him in detox for a month. They gave him, they lessened the expectations for him to fit into what everyone else [00:22:00] was doing who was there. That naturally creates some tension. Why does this person not have to do what the majority is doing? And part of my thinking on it was do you want it? His type of alcoholism, do you want his, would you want to switch places with him? Would you want his brain, because I believe his brain is, just based on research that shows, that people who relapse after treatment tend to have, smaller volume, certain parts of the reward pathway. And so, so, and looking at this stuff, it was helpful. to staff who understandably you're dealing with somebody who's at their worst, who's not necessarily, filled with gratitude or making the type of change that kind of feels like our experience is paying off, but what we started to do was we I started to think about how do we define success a little bit differently, and maybe for one person it's, in 13 years they'll become an attorney, and maybe for another one it's just that they're not on the street and they're [00:23:00] not being responded to by EMS and and the EMS thing was, In particular of interest to me, so I said, well, do you sign a release for Wake County EMS? I'd like to know about your transport history. And so EMS could go back to half of 2010. They said, we can give you half of 2010, which was 76 responses and 70 transports and half a year. And and the year that he was with us in 2012. It was down to 18 transports and so it was Hey staff, this may be difficult and frustrating, but guess what, each day that he's here, he's less likely to be being transported by the paramedics to the hospital. What was particularly impactful and again, this. cOmmunity partnership is so important and our paramedic friends have been so important. They would send new recruits and they would send advanced practice paramedics to spend time with us. And so one day they're visiting with us and they said, Oh my God, he's here. We had been so worried that something had happened to [00:24:00] him. We haven't been seeing him. And you start seeing this. perspective of the paramedic world where they're like, we know that he doesn't like turkey sandwiches. Right. Right. And so you start seeing those people on the front lines and understanding their experience and their worldview a little bit differently and really seeing so much of the compassion that they have for some of the people that can be challenging and difficult to work with. So we kept tracking this every year. Email EMS and I'll say any transports this year and for the last seven or eight years, no transports. The other thing is no admissions with us. All right. And we are in touch with them. Yeah. And we were able on his 60th birthday to put the word out there and some of the paramedics and other people. Thomas and folks were able to reach out to him and wish him happy birthday and so forth. But his path of recovery is somebody that never completed our program. Somebody's probably wasn't going to be capable of completing in the way that we had it designed. But it [00:25:00] spoke to making some adjustments. And the only thing that was a little bit ironic about it all was he came to me in 2012 at one point and said, hey, I just got a bill. And so like me asking to reach out to EMS for this data, it triggered a generation of a bill and we did a small podcast series a few years back called Voices from the Village and we did one with a One of our advanced practice paramedic friends and we asked this person to come in and record the intro and it was like, Hey, do you know what a podcast is now? Well, it's it's like the radio, and we just want you to talk a little bit at the beginning of that and we'll add it to the podcast. So number one. When he showed up, he said, I want to donate some clothes because for so many years, I was getting clothes from you guys and so very touching. And then number two is we're doing this intro to the podcast. It was, hey, do you remember that bill? And we had different recollections of it. His recollection was it was [00:26:00] half a million. Mine was it was 250, 000. So I've always had a little twinge of guilt that, like me asking him to share data generated this huge bill that was outstanding for him. But. Anyways it's one of the ways, I think it's been a learning opportunity for staff, who, and again I've heard it from paramedics, like we're administering Narcan and then we're back administering Narcan to the same person. Like there's a certain sense of like, are, is what we're doing effective? Does it matter? Why do we keep doing this? And with the paramedic friends, we, were able to launch this post overdose response. And, basically said maybe if we paired some people with lived experience with you that it could get some people out of that cycle. And so that project's over five years old now and in addition to serving the individual, it's also giving the paramedics a sense of like, we have some resources, so we don't feel like we're so helpless to make any type of impact or change. We had another guy who. [00:27:00] Between 2017 and 2021 had 54 detox admissions. And my usual sense was if he's not here with us if he's with somebody else, he's giving us a break. And if he's with us, he's giving some other provider a break. And four o'clock today he's invited me to come for a brick placement at our Memorial Garden. And he's got over two years of, sobriety now, and I ended up writing a blog which I don't do that often, but I've got some really good colleagues, Jason Schwartz, Shane Phillips, Matt Statman, Brian Kuhn. And they've, through Jason's leadership, have this blog site called Recovery Review Blog. And I don't contribute often, but I was in a supervision session and the woman who runs our family. Support an education program said, Oh, did you hear that his mom sold the suit? for his funeral and those, that those eight words or whatever, I was like, Oh my God, like [00:28:00] that is, you could spend a semester on that. And with him, I did this kind of blog post, about what does that mean? Like what does it mean for a family to get to a place where they say, We need to go ahead and buy a funeral to bury our son and then the way he learned that his mom had sold the suit was he was going to speak at a recovery meeting and said, Hey mom, I think. My sponsor said if I wore that suit that you bought for my funeral, it would be impactful, and she said, but we sold it. Wow. We're not worried about having to bury you, so at four o'clock today, I'll be there as they do this brick placement for you. That's awesome. Thomas Hogshead: Another commonality is these folks that we engage with over and over again, they're all deeply affable, right? Like in the recovery rooms, the 12 step rooms, like It's a pretty nice group of people. Yeah. And I think our struggles are what bind us together and staff rooting for those folks that have More so [00:29:00] participants, staff, we can get a little worn down by them. But that kind of cocoon of support is especially existent at HT. And it's really something special to see, Chris. On that note, maybe you could tell us a little bit, there's some stuff going on down there, I understand. Both at the men's and the women's campus. Could you tell Chris Budnick: us about that? Yeah, and what you said just imprompted two other thoughts with me, which is It's somewhat unique in this work where there can be an extreme set of So we had we decided to select two people for staff of the year. And I said, well, the first, first one we're selecting, he's, his tenure goes back to 2002, but it's really only the last two years that it's been as an employee. So, and what I said was, there were so many amazing things about why this person was nominated and selected, but I said like with seriousness, like, When he's been using, like, I want to hurt him. Like. Yeah. And [00:30:00] like, that's a huge, like the other thing that's been weird about being in this work is trying to reconcile human, natural human emotions and feelings with, what your professional role is, but that's an, like this guy was such a He just jeopardized other people's recovery the way he came up on campus bringing drugs with them, and things like that So but I love and I've went through this with another guy recently. I just love how recovery you know how easy it is to See the goodness and the compassion when the person's not impaired by their addiction our Greatest strength and greatest weakness in some ways may be that we provide services on demand and we don't turn people away and the beauty of that is You know, I asked staff yesterday at our holiday luncheon if we didn't operate like that And if healing transitions turned you away when you needed help or if we weren't here What would that have meant and I had two people [00:31:00] talk to me said one person said My sentence would have been until 2040 I wouldn't be sitting here with you right now. Another person came up to me and said they would be referring to me by a number, not by my name. And so there's some amazing things because we don't turn people away. There's some amazing things because we don't, uh, say there's no room here, call tomorrow. buT there's some tough things with that too, which is severe overcrowding to try to meet the demands. We are fortunate that the community decided to support us in increasing our capacity so that we could continue the practice of services on demand. And so we're very excited that our women's campus stage one of expansion should be done in early to mid January, which gives us a brand new community room that is large enough to accommodate our growth. But allows us to move the public and some of the staff out of where the women reside. Excited about that. At the same time, [00:32:00] we should be, our new shelter will be opening up, giving us 80 new beds at our women's campus, but more importantly, creating an infrastructure to support the number of people that we want to serve. We're averaged 160 women for the month, but that's in a. building designed to support 88 women, right? We'll be going to a capacity of 210, like with the infrastructure, enough restrooms, laundry, dining, and so forth. We'll have some interior renovations that are going on. And then we're really excited that out of this project at the Women's Campus that we've been given an opportunity from a Family Foundation to explore apartment style recovery housing for women and women with their children at our women's campus after they complete the recovery program. At our men's campus construction is been a little more slow to develop, a lot more coordination because it's property that we lease and working with our partners at the city. So we're expecting to be [00:33:00] done in October of 2024. That expansion is intended to take us from an infrastructure of 165 to an infrastructure of 290. One of the challenging things is that in October we averaged 347 men a night in our 165 bed campus. And so it's a little difficult that we've exceeded our future capacity. We're getting a little bit of relief St. John's Metropolitan Community Church has opened up White Flag Shelter, but because of the demand has said we'll operate every night whether it's cold weather night or not. And that's been supported by funding from the city and the county. And that's alleviating some of the demand for our services primarily for those who would end up in our detox if we weren't providing the drop in shelter. Chris, if Thomas Hogshead: you had to, do you have a number of how many unique clients you guys have served since opening in 2001? Chris Budnick: Yeah, so if you look at our database, there's about I want to say about 24, 25, [00:34:00] 000 unduplicated. You got to back out four from there, which are the cats. We got four cat entries in the database from some previous cats that we've served. Thomas Hogshead: If you think about that, not only you have those individuals, but you have their families, their. Yeah. It the reach that, that has, I would argue is more impactful than probably any organization in the state, recovery standpoint has had I've B. Reeves: told Chris this over the last few years, I've been to so many treatment centers around the country that are super nice and some of them, a lot of them have great treatment, beautiful facilities, but I don't think there's a place I respect as much as healing transitions. It's amazing what it does for this community. Just the ripple effect of 25, 000 ish people is probably in the millions of lives Chris Budnick: touched in some way. Thank you for the kind words and the respect. Yeah. Well, and B. Reeves: also we usually do this at the beginning of this. Will you just just tell us exactly nuts and bolts you backed into it of what healing transistors does. And we already said when it opened, but just, Chris Budnick: just the facts. Yeah. [00:35:00] So identified need in the community around alternative to jails and emergency departments. original concept was get a detox that could be that alternative location. The healing place in Louisville was identified and it had more than just the detox. It had an emergency shelter that provides basic human entitlement. It's a shelter that people can come in under the influence and it can serve as a a cultivating way to cultivate people into the recovery program. So detox, shelter, and then long term recovery program is what most of our beds are devoted to. And then we've added, we've either had or evolved the additional services that we would say are the ones that support our core services. So again, core services, shelter, detox, recovery program. We've always had transition case management to help at the end of the recovery program with linkage to recovery housing and employment. We've always had a healthcare coordinator who arranges healthcare professionals to come in and do clinics. And that role has [00:36:00] evolved to do things like prescription assistance. So this year we're I'm going to do about 45, 000 in prescription assistance. Hopefully that'll look different next year with Medicaid expansion referrals to providers in the community and so forth. When we opened our women's, we added a child and family specialist. I want to say around 2010 we said, we should start this family education support program. And so we've got somebody that oversees that. We added a recovery outreach program with the idea that with expansion if we don't do some other things differently, we're going to continue to outgrow the space. So we need to do a better job of supporting people when they leave. Previously we would do follow up with you if you completed the program, but we're a whole bunch of people off by not following up with those who don't complete. And so we've got dedicated staff that works with volunteers to help do outreach to people, whether they stay a day or a year. We added a child and family peer support specialist a couple of years ago, which was very [00:37:00] exciting because it's a woman that had. been through the program and been served by the child family specialist. And so she's able to be in that role with the lived experience. I mentioned the post overdose response team. We call it the rapid responder program. And then we've been able through some funding to add some care coordinators and case managers for particularly women at our emergency shelter, and they've been able to get. Over 40 women into housing this year, which is a very impactful service that's being offered. So, that feels like, in a nutshell, what we do, and we do it by, with no cost to the individual, trying to eliminate or reduce barriers, services on demand, work with people as many times as it takes, use a peer oriented a peer orientation, but not at the exclusion of clinical services. So we partner with folks like Caroline Outreach and Monarch and others to do the clinical care when it's identified. And we believe in linking people to the [00:38:00] larger recovery community. That's where the lifelong support will come from. And we also use this hand up, not hand out model where we match people's investment into their own change. I love that. Yeah. Thomas Hogshead: Chris, what would you say the most rewarding moment has been in your career? tenure at H P, now Healing Transitions. Does anything stand out in particular or is it an overall? Chris Budnick: Yeah, so I come back to this one particular story and there's hundreds of these stories, but there's one that I hold closely and a colleague of mine, Terry we have this kind of ongoing thing where I know it makes her cry, so I ask her to talk about it to people and so she always gets angry at me in a way. But in 2019 there's a series of losses that kind of accumulated and there was a woman that was struck and killed when she was intoxicated who had walked off from our campus. [00:39:00] There was a guy that I was texting with who was wanting to come back, I was working that out, well, swing by and see on Sunday, come Sunday morning, his mom was going to take him to see the sunrise and then bring him in and get notified the next morning that, he died between the time that we had agreed for him to come in and for him to arrive, his mom find him, found him dead of an overdose. And then seven, 10 days later from that, a close volunteer and supporter, his stepson had an overdose, which eventually became fatal. And I remember that time feeling just a lot of weight. And I took advantage of our EAP program one because it's what I, what we would recommend to other people. And I met with some people and so forth. And I did all those things, but the thing that made a difference, All the difference in the world was, I was sitting down for a monthly check in with this employee Terry. And it wasn't part of our [00:40:00] conversation. We're meeting to talk about her work and things like that. And she says, Hey, I want to let you know that my son got married. And I was invited to the wedding and again there's hundreds of these types of stories. She says I didn't know this, but they had a dance for the bride with her father. And then all of a sudden I found out that I was being asked to go out there and have a dance with my son. And she says and I'm overwhelmed with emotion and I'm crying. I'm, I'm a decade in recovery, but I'm still, feel guilt and remorse for not being there for my children. And as I'm doing that, my son just hugs me and says, it's all okay, mom, and she's having this profound sense of forgiveness and, experiencing something that she didn't think she was going to get to experience. And then she says to me, the other thing that happened was I got a picture with my parents. I've never had a picture with my parents [00:41:00] before, right? Something that I take for granted, that many of us take for granted. She says, my parents divorced when I was really young and this is, they were both at the wedding. It was the first time that I was able to get a picture with both of my parents. So there's hundreds of stories like that. But that story is one that at that moment it countered all the grief I was feeling about these recent losses. And I think that if To this question, what's been the most rewarding thing? I think it's any time that I see the alumni, uh, come together in an act of love and support for one another. Last Sunday, it was at the state farmer's market restaurant where they held a memorial service for one of our alumni. And watching the way the ladies who've been through our program love on her in her [00:42:00] last days and those are the things that are the Most validating. Thomas Hogshead: That's amazing. Yeah. That's good stuff. One other thought I have too about is our HT alum on staff here. Their ability to connect with our clients is very profound. We talked about the bond that we have with HT. We're set up differently, but our mission is the same, right? This first step of like getting into recovery, how does that look? And our, those folks I just mentioned, they're able to relate to people, make them feel comfortable. Like we talked about when I worked for you, make people feel valued because we come in wounded, right? It's it's not a moral failure, our disease, our affliction, but collectively. On your side of town, our side of town, and we're all trying to do the best we can. Yeah. Any way you would if people wanted to help HT in some capacity, what what are you recommending now? I know we're doing a co drive being winter. What else could we do? What else could folks do to support? Chris Budnick: I just want to thank [00:43:00] you guys for being sponsors of Oakwood 24 and that's coming up next week and there's lots of ways that people can get involved so that, and to be supportive. One of the first things that we recommend is come take a tour. And tours can be scheduled or they can happen anytime during business hours. Just come in and want to see, learn more about it. We find that is impactful because somebody may encounter somebody that's in need of our services at some time and we'll be glad to know that it exists. It may lead to them wanting to contribute in some way, either through their talents or services or to contribute financially. So about 45 percent of our annual revenue is fundraising, so not, grants or government sources and things like that. So we've got a big ask, or big lift every year to try to raise money. And one of the things that drives that for me is wanting to be a living wage organization. We want our employees, again, 75 percent who are alumni, to be able to afford housing in the community that they serve.[00:44:00] Well, Chris, Thomas Hogshead: we're very grateful for you coming out. Thank you for being here Chris Budnick: and for everything you do. Yeah. Thank you for everything you do. I'm a big supporter of you guys. Thank you. Always willing to help out and it's very, warms my heart to think of the people that you hire here and the work that you do. Show Notes In this impactful episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we are privileged to have Chris Budnick, a seasoned professional in addiction treatment and recovery, as our guest. Chris, who is the Executive Director at Healing Transitions, shares his extensive experience and insights into addiction recovery. Having worked in the field since 1993, Chris brings a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to our discussion. Throughout the episode, Chris Budnick talks about the transformative journey of addiction recovery, both from a personal and a professional perspective. His involvement with Healing Transitions since its inception has been instrumental in driving forward the organization's mission. Chris's role as an Adjunct Instructor at North Carolina State University's Department of Social Work also highlights his commitment to education and mentoring in the field of addiction treatment. Healing Transitions, under Chris's leadership, offers a range of services aimed at assisting individuals with addiction. These services include long-term recovery programs, overnight shelters, and non-medical detox. The organization operates two campuses – a Men’s Campus located at 1251 Goode St, Raleigh, NC, and a Women’s Campus at 3304 Glen Royal Rd, Raleigh, NC. They also run the Recovered Treasures Thrift Store at 4011 Capital Blvd, Ste 109, Raleigh, NC. Listeners interested in learning more about Chris Budnick's work or Healing Transitions can reach out via email at cbudnick@healing-transitions.org or by phone at 919-821-1140. For more information about Healing Transitions and their various programs and services, visit their website: [Healing Transitions](⁠https://healing-transitions.org/⁠(https://healing-transitions.org/) Join us in this compelling conversation with Chris Budnick on the Finding New Waters Podcast, where we delve into the human aspect of addiction and the path to healing and recovery. Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)

In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. < Back to Episodes Long-Term Recovery: David McNease on Healing, Growth, and Purpose 39:05 min | David McNease | Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. David shares his personal journey from addiction to sobriety and how his struggles led him to create a structured, long-term solution for young men facing substance use disorder and failure to launch. He discusses the importance of time in recovery, the power of community, and why real change happens when individuals are given the space to rebuild their lives. David’s insights offer valuable guidance for anyone navigating early recovery or supporting a loved one through the process. Subscribe "Recovery takes time, and young men need a space where they can truly build a life—not just get sober." – David McNease Show Notes In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with David McNease, the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program for young men. David shares his personal journey from addiction to sobriety and how his struggles led him to create a structured, long-term solution for young men facing substance use disorder and failure to launch. He discusses the importance of time in recovery, the power of community, and why real change happens when individuals are given the space to rebuild their lives. David’s insights offer valuable guidance for anyone navigating early recovery or supporting a loved one through the process. --- ### **Timestamps:** - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcoming David McNease and an overview of Greenville Transitions. - **[03:00] The Importance of Long-Term Treatment**: Why young men need time and structure to succeed. - **[07:00] David’s Personal Recovery Journey**: His struggles with addiction and the turning point that changed his life. - **[12:00] Failure to Launch & Recovery**: Helping young men find purpose and independence. - **[18:00] Holding Boundaries in Recovery**: Why family support should come with accountability. - **[25:00] Creating a Culture of Recovery**: How Greenville Transitions fosters real, lasting change. - **[31:00] Building a Life Beyond Addiction**: Finding success, relationships, and fulfillment in sobriety. - **[38:00] Advice for Those Struggling**: What David wants young men and their families to know. - **[44:00] How to Connect**: Information about Greenville Transitions and David’s platform, Clean Breakthrough. --- ### **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **The Value of Long-Term Recovery**: Why a longer runway helps young men truly embrace sobriety. 2. **Accountability and Boundaries**: The role of family in supporting—not enabling—recovery. 3. **Success Beyond Sobriety**: How structure, life skills, and purpose help individuals thrive. 4. **The Influence of Peers**: How recovery culture can make or break long-term success. 5. **Building Confidence Through Action**: The small wins that add up to lasting change. --- ### **Guest Bio:** **David McNease** **Founder & CEO, Greenville Transitions** David McNease is the founder and CEO of Greenville Transitions, a long-term recovery program designed to support young men struggling with substance use disorder and failure to launch. Having faced his own battles with addiction in his early 20s, David understands the unique challenges young men face when transitioning into adulthood. His program provides structure, accountability, and long-term care, ensuring clients have the tools they need to build fulfilling, sober lives. Through his work at Greenville Transitions and his social media platform, Clean Breakthrough, David continues to inspire and guide individuals on their recovery journeys. --- ### **Resources Mentioned:** - **Greenville Transitions Website:** [https://www.greenvilletransitions.com](https://www.greenvilletransitions.com) - **Clean Breakthrough (Social Media Platform):** [https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough](https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough)(https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough](https://www.instagram.com/cleanbreakthrough)) - **12-Step Programs (Find a Meeting):** [https://www.aa.org](https://www.aa.org) --- ### **Follow Us:** - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### **Watch & Listen:** - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) #DavidMcNease #GreenvilleTransitions #LongTermRecovery #YoungAdultSobriety #FindingNewWatersPodcast #RecoverySuccess #CleanBreakthrough

In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes From Family Business to Recovery Work with Steve Lee 57:17 min | Steve Lee | Finding New Waters In this heartfelt and deeply insightful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Steve Lee, Senior Director of Strategic Relationships at Cumberland Heights. Steve reflects on his 35-year journey in recovery, his unexpected transition into the treatment field at age 58, and the guiding values that shape both his life and career. From stories of personal transformation to reflections on ethics in behavioral health, this episode is a masterclass in humility, wisdom, and the power of principled living. Whether you’re in recovery, working in the treatment space, or simply seeking a deeper understanding of authentic leadership, Steve’s words will resonate. Subscribe “Do my principles hold up when the mortgage is due, when my boss is on me about admissions? A principle is not malleable—it’s either firm or it’s not.” – Steve Lee Show Notes In this heartfelt and deeply insightful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Steve Lee, Senior Director of Strategic Relationships at Cumberland Heights. Steve reflects on his 35-year journey in recovery, his unexpected transition into the treatment field at age 58, and the guiding values that shape both his life and career. From stories of personal transformation to reflections on ethics in behavioral health, this episode is a masterclass in humility, wisdom, and the power of principled living. Whether you’re in recovery, working in the treatment space, or simply seeking a deeper understanding of authentic leadership, Steve’s words will resonate. 📍Timestamps: • [00:00] Introduction – Meet Steve Lee from Cumberland Heights • [01:00] The Cheeseburger Story – A life lesson in acceptance • [03:00] Starting a New Career at 58 – From family business to treatment field • [07:00] Questions That Clarify Purpose – What do you love, value, and excel at? • [12:00] Two Hats in Recovery Work – The separation of job and personal sobriety • [19:00] A Job Meant to Be – How trusting the process led to the right opportunity • [24:00] The Power of 12-Step Language – When the message hits the heart • [29:00] What Keeps Steve Coming Back – Spiritual growth and humility • [33:00] Ethics in the Treatment Field – Staying true in high-pressure environments • [42:00] True North in Action – Doing the right thing even when it’s hard • [46:00] Friendship, Change, and Growth – Recovery reshaping connection • [50:00] Cumberland Heights & Arches – Trusted treatment for all ages • [55:00] Final Reflections – Gratitude, growth, and staying in the solution 🎤 Guest Bio: Steve Lee Senior Director of Strategic Relationships, Cumberland Heights Steve Lee brings over 12 years of experience in behavioral health and over 35 years of personal recovery. A former family business leader, Steve made a transformative mid-life career change to work in the addiction treatment field. He is widely respected for his ethical leadership, heartfelt communication, and dedication to recovery-centered care. At Cumberland Heights, Steve focuses on connecting professionals and families with treatment solutions that honor the integrity of the recovery process. 🔑 Key Takeaways: 1. Reinvention at Any Age – It’s never too late to start living your passion. 2. Principled Recovery Work – True ethics come from personal accountability, not company policy. 3. Why We Keep Coming Back – Recovery isn’t just about stopping a behavior—it’s about spiritual growth. 4. Two Hats, One Mission – Personal recovery and professional roles must remain distinct. 5. Cumberland Heights Legacy – A beacon for 12-step rooted, clinically excellent care. 💬 Powerful Quote: “Do my principles hold up when the mortgage is due, when my boss is on me about admissions? A principle is not malleable—it’s either firm or it’s not.” – Steve Lee 📚 Resources & Mentions: • Cumberland Heights Treatment Center: https://www.cumberlandheights.org(https://www.cumberlandheights.org/) • Arch Academy (Adolescent Treatment): https://www.archacademy.org(https://www.archacademy.org/) • Still Waters (12-Step Immersion for Men): https://www.stillwatersrecovery.org(https://www.stillwatersrecovery.org/) 📲 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn) #SteveLee #CumberlandHeights #FindingNewWatersPodcast #12StepRecovery #EthicsInRecovery #AddictionTreatment #SpiritualRecovery #RecoveryLeadership #ArchAcademy #StillWatersRecovery