In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes When Government and Recovery Work Together: Jacques Gilbert & Hollan Steen 32:29 min | Jacques Gilbert & Hollan Steen | Finding New Waters In this moving and unfiltered episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Mayor Jacques Gilbert and Hollan Steen, Director of Admissions at Asheville Recovery Center, to share the remarkable story of Apex, North Carolina’s Substance Misuse Task Force. The episode explores how a mayor and a formerly incarcerated man formed an unlikely alliance to battle addiction stigma, increase recovery resources, and create a more welcoming and inclusive community. They discuss the founding of the task force, the courage it took to start conversations about addiction in a conservative environment, and how their partnership has inspired other municipalities to take notice. It’s a powerful testimony to the healing potential of connection, humility, and action at the local level. Subscribe “A government official sitting on a couch with a convicted felon, saying together we want to change the world—that would’ve never happened in Apex. Until now.” – Hollan Steen Show Notes In this moving and unfiltered episode of Finding New Waters, we’re joined by Mayor Jacques Gilbert and Hollan Steen, Director of Admissions at Asheville Recovery Center, to share the remarkable story of Apex, North Carolina’s Substance Misuse Task Force. The episode explores how a mayor and a formerly incarcerated man formed an unlikely alliance to battle addiction stigma, increase recovery resources, and create a more welcoming and inclusive community. They discuss the founding of the task force, the courage it took to start conversations about addiction in a conservative environment, and how their partnership has inspired other municipalities to take notice. It’s a powerful testimony to the healing potential of connection, humility, and action at the local level. ⏱️ Timestamps: • 00:00 – Opening & introductions • 01:00 – How Hollan & Jacques first connected • 05:00 – Breaking through shame and stigma in small towns • 07:00 – The courage to walk into the mayor’s office • 10:00 – Creating a task force with purpose and balance • 13:00 – Building Peak of Hope: The outreach mission • 17:00 – Lived experience and its role in public trust • 21:00 – The power of family support in launching the task force • 24:00 – From a hidden booth to community hugs: Peak Fest’s evolution • 27:00 – The stigma in Wake County vs. Asheville • 30:00 – Naloxone in Wake County Schools: A real victory • 34:00 – Hope, collaboration, and how to get involved 🔑 Key Points: • A mayor and a man with a felony conviction team up to build trust • Recovery stigma in Wake County and the courage to talk about it • The power of representation: why visibility matters in recovery • Supporting families with lived experience, not just data • Why this local model is gaining statewide attention 💬 Powerful Quote: “A government official sitting on a couch with a convicted felon, saying together we want to change the world—that would’ve never happened in Apex. Until now.” – Hollan Steen 🧠 Guest Bios: Jacques Gilbert Mayor of Apex, NC | Former Police Captain | Community Advocate Mayor Gilbert served 29 years in law enforcement before being elected mayor. He’s known for his commitment to connection, inclusion, and showing up for those who feel unseen. Hollan Steen Director of Admissions, Asheville Recovery Center Hollan’s journey from incarceration to recovery leader is a testament to the power of second chances. He now leads admissions at ARC and speaks nationally about stigma, advocacy, and lived experience. 🌐 Resources Mentioned: • Town of Apex: https://www.apexnc.org (https://www.apexnc.org/)(Search: Substance Misuse Task Force) • Asheville Recovery Center: https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com(https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com/) • Naloxone Programs in NC Schools • Circle of Security Parenting: https://circleofsecurityinternational.com(https://circleofsecurityinternational.com/) 📱 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Transforming Lives: A Journey of Recovery and Family Intervention with Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers 44:33 min | Sam Davis + Darryl Rodgers| Finding New Waters Dive into the intricate world of addiction recovery with experts Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers in this enlightening podcast episode. Explore the importance of surrender and desperation, and learn practical strategies for seeking help, setting boundaries, and navigating interventions. Tune in to gain valuable insights from personal experiences and to understand the role of self-awareness, support, and accountability in this complex journey. This episode is an essential guide for those facing the challenges of addiction recovery, offering a deeper understanding of the journey and the steps towards a healthier future. Subscribe "Desperation is the catalyst for surrender, and surrender is the gateway to true recovery." -Sam Davis Podcast Transcript #019 Sam Davis & Darryl Rodgers Sam Davis: [00:00:00] What is desperation? What is surrender? We talk about surrender. We talk about desperation. I know for me and for countless others that I know in a process when you're giving up, you have to surrender old ideas. You have to surrender old beliefs. You have to surrender old habits. That is no different than surrendering when you're an army in a war. Sam Davis: Yeah. Or in combat. Surrender is surrender. I have never yet seen through history and I love history. Where an army or a country surrendered until they were desperate. B Reeves: That's a great point. Sam Davis: Exactly. So desperation is required. Yes. In order to surrender to, at the time such a foreign concept is recovered. Sam Davis: You know how foreign that is to, to us that our brain is telling us that if we don't have that substance in the next two minutes, we're gonna die.[00:01:00] B Reeves: All right welcome to another version of Finding New Waters. I am sitting here today with Sam Winston Davis, who is an interventionist in Darrell Rogers, who is a family recovery coach. And I'm glad to have both of them here. I recently, I met Sam over the phone. A few months ago we were working on a case together and we hadn't met in person. B Reeves: And then I had the opportunity to have lunch with him recently. And while we were talking I thought he would be a great guest for our podcast. And in our conversation before we met in person, he had told me about Darryl. And so I had Darryl come in one night and do a tour and have and come to our family group, which we do on [00:02:00] Wednesday nights. B Reeves: And then he came back cause he had never met Sam in person today to have lunch and do a tour. Then we roped Darryl in to be on this podcast with Sam. So anyway, I'm gonna shut up for a second and I'll start with Sam. Just tell us a little bit about what you do. Sam Davis: I'm an interventionist, and what that means is a lot of people think it means that we come in with sabers, rattling, loaded for bear, ready to just wrangle up their loved one, say some profound words and haul 'em off. Sam Davis: Or either yell at 'em, scream at 'em, point fingers, tell 'em they're an alcoholic and they suck and they need to go to treatment. That's what happened to me, but that my family did that. But that's not what an interventionist does. That's not what an intervention is. I'm there to guide families and provide strategy and options and a path for them to follow and to bounce things off of and to really just lean on and talk 'em out of the trees and just keep 'em on the path as best I can and help 'em, guide them through this.[00:03:00] Sam Davis: Rocky road of addiction. It's when we are all emotionally wrapped up into something, we can't see things very clearly. So you need someone that can, that's not emotionally attached to sit there and talk you through it. And that's what we do. Cool. We do in person. And there's nothing I'd rather be doing when I'm sitting in a family's living room, knee to knee, B Reeves: I hear you. And I love that feeling of feeling like I'm not working. I catch myself sometimes and I, cuz I feel like I'm not working. I'm overcome with a little bit of anxiety. Cause it's a familiar feeling from, about five and a half years ago, I had that very same feeling, but I, it was because I wasn't working and I was supposed to be, but this doesn't feel like work cause I love doing it. B Reeves: What about you? What do you do, Darryl? Darryl Rodger: Like you said, I'm a family recovery coach and my primary role is helping families understand what their proper role is in the recovery process. I think that a lot of times parents there's some enabling behaviors, rescuing behaviors, things like that, that they fall into. Darryl Rodger: And that's a [00:04:00] normal thing. It's normal when your child is in trouble that you want to help. But there are right ways to help and ways to help that aren't so good, that aren't healthy for for the person who is dealing with the addiction or for the family. And I help them work on that and provide some accountability. Darryl Rodger: Thank you. Would you mind B Reeves: sharing with us how you found yourself in this Darryl Rodger: world, so to speak? Yeah, so I made my own mistakes in that arena and so parents can, and I don't mind sharing those and parents can learn from that and. My oldest of two boys, chase, died in 2014 in a drug impaired wreck. Darryl Rodger: After struggling with addiction for about a year and a half, and I began doing prevention. I wrote a book that came out in 2015, began doing drug prevention speaking after that. And I just was looking for other ways to help families and it was actually interventionist that directed me towards pal, which is parents of Addicted loved ones. Darryl Rodger: It's a peer [00:05:00] support group for parents that have a child that is addicted to drugs or alcohol. And through the, through my volunteering with pal, I learned a lot about what families need in terms of education around dealing with their addicted son or daughter. B Reeves: How'd you get into this Sam Davis: line of work? Sam Davis: Man, I did a lot of cocaine, took a lot of methadone, smoked a lot of weed, and ate a lot of pills. I hear you. That's how that happened. I had been to several treatment programs. My family didn't really know what to do with me, and I knew that I was created to be something different than a bottomed out crack head. Sam Davis: I had no idea how to figure that out or how to make that happen. My family stepped in, got the education they needed, began to take action, fired me from the decision making as best they could with an interventionist, which was very effective. And I ended up in long term truly individualized care. And when I left there, [00:06:00] I knew that the message that I had received and the transformation that I had made, I knew then that there was a lot of families. Sam Davis: I. That needed some support, that needed a true message, that needed hope and needed a path, and it was just something in me. It wasn't of me, but it was in me because I'm, as an addicted individual, I was a very selfish, self-centered person, and I can still be very selfish and self-centered. So that's why I know that it was something within me, not of me, that has just laid this in my lap, who was like, this is what was supposed to happen. Sam Davis: And I went and got trained, and that was 12 years ago and hung out in my little shingle and been doing it ever since. B Reeves: That's awesome. I remember when we talked, I was asking you what you know, I don't know too much about I'm not an interventionist. I work with interventionists like yourself, but I know I'm speaking, I'm confident. B Reeves: I'm speaking for lots of people who will hopefully hear and see this. They see the, what they see on tv and it's only that [00:07:00] surprise. And I asked you, what you do and you seem to have a, your own kind of methodology that combines. Can you talk a little bit about that? About Sam Davis: Yeah. I mean there's the arise, there's the invitational model of intervention, and then there's the more classic surprise model of intervention. Sam Davis: I like to combine the two now most of the time on my interventions. They're on a need to know basis and right then and there, the individual doesn't need to know that's for their own good. It's not like we're trying to be deceiving or lying or anything. Like it's just a flat out, they're on a need to know basis and right now they don't need to know. Sam Davis: That's a large majority of them. But if I can find an opportunity to weave in an invitation without outright saying, Hey. We'd like you to come over next Wednesday evening and discuss your heroin problem, or discuss your drinking problem with the rest of us and our family issue. We don't really outright say that, but if we can wiggle in an invitation, we'll do [00:08:00] that. Sam Davis: Yeah. I'm doing a session where the individual is, was invited into the process. And I've done that several times. We'll invite them into the process and we'll slow the role of an intervention sometimes. That's more so really for the family. A family is it's very fearful of what an intervention would entail, which fear is a big liar. Sam Davis: Fear is fantasy. It's gonna show you worst case scenario. But we have to meet the families where they are and where their willingness and to set boundaries. And hold boundaries because you don't want 'em to set a boundary that they're not gonna hold. We'll do sessions with 'em an hour at a time, but we've, we're moving a lot of people to treatment without having to do that formal sit down intervention. Sam Davis: Now, nothing takes the place of that. There's a magic when the family sits down, their family's scared of death. They're always worried that their loved one's gonna run out and kill themselves, or they're gonna get angry and run off, that they're gonna get violent. All of these things that their fear tells 'em, right? Sam Davis: What it really is a very magical moment. It's a very powerful experience that no one in that living room or wherever you're having the intervention will ever forget. [00:09:00] I never forget 'em. I may lose track after years of, or may slip my mind, but if that family calls me to update me or just say Merry Christmas or whatever, which happens a lot, and they say their name and so many years ago today, you stepped in, it'll come right back to me. Sam Davis: They're extremely powerful experiences. It's a, it's an op, it's a place where families come in with love and support, but firm and direct and honest communication in a kind and loving way. And also direct. It's so powerful. I just, I can't explain it well enough how powerful of an experience it is. B Reeves: What, at what point in your, as a family recovery coach, I. Do you get to a point where you realize, hey, you're not holding boundaries as a family unit. I think you may need to talk to somebody like Sam. Have you had any experience like that you Darryl Rodger: could talk about? Yeah. I see. Darryl Rodger: I see parents get hung up on the decision making process a lot, where they're just overcome with fear. [00:10:00] And They need some help making that decision to either to give their child, an an option, either go to treatment and we'll pay for it, or you're gonna have to pack your bags and move out. Darryl Rodger: And I've seen situations where the child is living at home in their thirties and right on, and still using drugs and there's no, there are no changes taking place. And that's not good for the parents, not good for the child. And it is really about helping them make that decision to take some action and make a change. Darryl Rodger: Yeah, B Reeves: Both of you have mentioned fear and both of you think of both said boundaries, and that's something that we talk about all the time in recovery all the time on this podcast. I talk about it all the time In my personal life, in recovery, I. And I just talk about the creating of is one thing. B Reeves: It's like when somebody asks for help that's great, but then it's really all about the receiving [00:11:00] of the help. And then it's then the same thing with the boundaries. It's not for me to ever say those boundaries are for a family. And I'm, again, I'm not an interventionist, but I do have these conversations on a, very basic level of creating the boundaries. B Reeves: But then the next, the real magic is then the sticking to the boundaries. Can you talk a little bit about on how you advise families on what those boundaries are and what those kind of degrees of boundaries Sam Davis: are? I can tell you that when we first start working with the family, we're not coming out of the gate saying, Hey, you're gonna tell them to, it's this or the highway. Sam Davis: Because, You look at boundary, a boundary like a muscle, it has to be exercised and you just can't go start dead lifting a thousand pounds. You gotta start off with a little lightweight. So when it just, when someone, there's a lot of. Misinformation. Or misunderstanding around an intervention. Sam Davis: Cuz we've gotten a lot of calls through the years where they'll call and, Hey, can you be here this afternoon and intervene? And it really doesn't work that way. We want time to plan with the family and strategize and I [00:12:00] like to get 'em started on the intervention process starts as soon as they engage us. Sam Davis: We want them to start exercising that boundary muscle on a little smaller scale. Get the feel of it, feel the weight a little bit, feel. Figure out how it feels in your body. And express that boundary and watch how all of that fear that you had around setting that boundary didn't come true. Sam Davis: Starts building some confidence and they can set another boundary and another boundary. Plus, we want the individual to know when we walk in on them, the day of the intervention the loud one. That they have sensed already that some things have changed with the family. So this is not just something that they're pulling today. Sam Davis: Just another thing. Like they're serious. My family is very serious about this. B Reeves: That's interesting cause I've never heard it expressed like that kind of, leading, like building up to, when working the muscle, because that's such a great point. If all of a sudden these people who've just been enabling and enabling, and they don't mean to, my parents certainly didn't mean to, my parents are great and I should retract my statement. B Reeves: They didn't look at me and point a finger and say, you're an [00:13:00] alcoholic, you suck. They were worried sick and crying and sad and doing, just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And I was, I was probably gonna be intervened upon soon, but I went willingly. But But did you know these who have been enabling and giving and bailing out, and then all of a sudden one day they're just supposed to do a complete 180 and say, you're cut off, we're done. B Reeves: It's this or the highway, like you said. That's a great point. I've never heard it said like that. Like with the, one little thing. No, we're not gonna do this one thing that you're asking for. So just to plant the seed that things are changing, that the wheels are in motion that we are changing as a family unit because that's something that people. B Reeves: I talk to families every day about this. A lot of 'em see it as a sentence and a punishment for them. They're like, what? Why my kid or my husband or my wife, they're the one who has, they have the problem. Why do I have to change my ways? And what I've learned in my personal recovery and in this, in working in this field, Is that it's a kind of a gift for the families too. B Reeves: Even they don't have to go through what I went [00:14:00] through and what you went through to be, active alcoholics and addicts to get help and get better. These families in going through this process with you and with you, they not only get to help their son or their daughter or whatever, loved one it is, but they get to start healing themselves, Sam Davis: so then one very simple, yet very profound experience is to begin with, no. Yeah, it's a complete sentence. Complete sentence. And we'll find ourselves wanting to justify why we're saying no. Because internally it has nothing to do with them. It's about us, but just no. B Reeves: And just getting through that fear. B Reeves: Just feel that, Sam Davis: yeah, but feel with that set, that, sit with it. Notice through the experience that the skies aren't parting and the earth isn't crumbling and your loved one is maybe a little angry, but you're still surviving, and so are they. Yeah. You be, have to, you can have all the information, but you need to have an experience. Sam Davis: I can sit on the phone with somebody for 12 hours a day talking about an intervention and talking about this [00:15:00] and talking about that, but it's, you have to experience it. And it's really not something you wanna just dive right into the intervention day. You want to have the experiences leading up to it. Sam Davis: They build on each other. B Reeves: And so when you're prepping for an intervention and they can go from. A month out to what's the, the, tell me, what's the timeline? Sam Davis: I'd say average time's about five days. Okay. But it's, we're seeing some more complicated cases. We're seeing some more complex family systems. Sam Davis: Multiple substance use disorder, family members, lots of trauma. Covid hadn't helped We're, I'm, I am, I can only speak for me. I am, I don't know about other interventionists. It's starting to be a little bit longer process of the coaching and the prep work and the understanding and all of that. You know B Reeves: what I'll start with you. What, in terms of just substance what are, what do you [00:16:00] see the most? Darryl Rodger: In terms of like my, B Reeves: I, Darryl, my son is on. Darryl Rodger: Yeah, that's interesting. When first started it was opioids a lot. And now a lot of parents coming to me, it's marijuana is the main issue, is I think it's the increase in the potency of the marijuana that's out there now in, in in obviously different. Darryl Rodger: Forms, if you're smoking dabs or some other wax extracts, you can really high TC content then. Yeah. A lot of issues with that. Do you include Delta eight B Reeves: and Delta Darryl Rodger: nine in that? Yeah. And when I first started hearing about Delta eight parents in my group were telling me their children were experiencing, when I say children, teenagers, young adults obviously, but they're experiencing. Darryl Rodger: Some psychosis issues Yeah. Around Delta eight. Absolutely. And when they first started talking about [00:17:00] Delta eight, they were ahead of me. I was like what are you talking about? And I had to start doing my research on Delta eight, yeah. But but yeah I think a lot of people who are, there are people that I hear about who are trying to recover, and maybe they've been to treatment and. Darryl Rodger: And they're staying off of their substance, that's their go-to, that's their primary substance. But then they think Delta eight, that's not so bad and besides is legal. And so they'll go start experimenting with that a little bit and just something to take the edge off. Darryl Rodger: And I don't know, it'd be better if they were just completely sober, but if you're a parent, would, you'd rather they would be smoking Delta eight than shooting up heroin or something like that. For sure. Know for B Reeves: sure. But that, but it's, there's this myth that, marijuana, even though it's not legal in North Carolina, it's legal in so many states. B Reeves: It's been normalized for so long that. The general consensus is it's harmless. [00:18:00] Yeah. And it's absolutely not harmless. Yeah, that's correct. And like you said, the dab and the oil and the, all that makes it so much more potent. The, with the real withdrawal effects of that and Delta eight and Delta nine causing. B Reeves: Full on psychosis. And so it is funny though because that argument, it's basically, it's legal or, cuz the Delta eight and delta nine can be bought in a, a gas station. But so can beer and wine and booze, nobody really rights says that's harmless, what about you? What do you see the most of in your interventions in terms of substance? Sam Davis: Man, what is flooding? The news channels and social media and everything is fentanyl, right? You hear that everywhere and it's killing people. It's a very dangerous drug and there's a lot of 'em. Sam Davis: It's a bad thing. Horrible, but in my experience, what I'm seeing the most of, I certainly get the fentanyl cases and the Xanax and the cocaine and I get all of those, but by far it's marijuana and alcohol. B Reeves: Yeah. Here it's. I was sure that we were gonna see, probably 60 40, [00:19:00] if not, 60, 40 alcohol, 40% drugs, mainly opiates, specifically fentanyl. B Reeves: And we get, like you were saying, we get all that, but it's mostly, 80 to 90% people or people of people here are here for alcohol. We have plenty of benzos and. We get people here just from Delta eight and weed and all that, but it's mostly alcohol. It's still king alcohol. B Reeves: I wanted to change gears for one second because y'all met. I want you to talk about how y'all met each other. In this modern way, Sam Davis: man. I'm sitting there scrolling, TikTok. This handsome fellow pops up, starts talking about a message that resonated with me. He spoke my language. And a lot of people don't understand how big sober TikTok is and recovery TikTok, and everybody thinks it's about, kids dancing and doing silly challenges and things like that. Sam Davis: I started putting out some content about a year and a half ago, and I like being [00:20:00] creative. I feel I. I had stifled that for so many years, and the longer I'm sober, the more I'm authentic me. And I don't make apologies for that. And it goes along with that internal drive of there was a, It was a message to be given. Sam Davis: I started putting out some short form content on TikTok and grew pretty well and I've just met him on TikTok. We got the message and back and forth and all. Yeah, that's, and then B Reeves: here we are. Yeah. I don't know, and as you were telling me, just made me think, we're all, we all work in this, call it an industry. B Reeves: I feel dirty sometimes calling it that, but it is. And but I was just thinking, I wonder how many. Bankers would be like, Hey, why don't you know, you come. They're just, they're the collaboration. Unless it's for absolute profit, you don't find that in anywhere else, I don't think, we just, we just all want to help people and it's it's a beautiful thing to see people find each other in these as far as I can tell, none of us are teenage girls and yet TikTok, brought us together here today. B Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. And another I'm looking at your [00:21:00] hat. Says for the people who can't see us. Rule 62. Tell ' Sam Davis: em what, tell 'em about Rule 62. This one came from TikTok. I fell outta Georgia sent it up to me. I think it's from Georgia Hat Company. Okay. And he was in sobriety, he said, sent it with a note and said, Hey, I've been digging your message and your content. Sam Davis: Here's your hat. And I make 'em for some people that are sober. Rule 62 means don't take yourself so damn seriously. Yeah. And I have to, when I wear it, it's not wearing. Yeah. As much outward as when I'm looking in the mirror in the morning, looking in the mirror when I'm getting dressed, it's man, don't take yourself so damn seriously. Sam Davis: You're really not all that important. Yeah. And let's just go along with the flow of things B Reeves: today. Yeah. I need to see that. I need to hear that every day of my life. And so you tell me a little bit about what you do locally, like on a day-to-day. You have, you, you have a day job, right? Darryl Rodger: Nope. Okay. Then what, tell me about what you do on your day there. So actually, I, when I, what brought me to this area, I was a pilot. I flew for, okay. I flew for American [00:22:00] Eagle and I flew a commuter airline. Yeah. Right here outta Raleigh. And I flew a Apache Helicopters in the Army National Guard. Darryl Rodger: When we first moved here, I wanted to be close to the airport. Moved into Cary. And and we've been here ever since. But I've owned several small businesses over the years and when my son died, I wrote a book about his life and then I started getting some opportunities to do some speaking, public speaking. Darryl Rodger: And so I started doing drug prevention speaking, and I still do that. But started working with the parents in the Powell Group on a volunteer basis. And I'm also, I'm on the board for North Carolina Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. Against Drunk Driving, let me get that right against Drunk Driving, not against Drunk Drivers. Darryl Rodger: I'm on their board and and I do some speaking for them. And I was just doing some of the volunteer work and just realizing that parents, a lot of parents need a lot more than just that one. Meeting of [00:23:00] a peer support group one night a week. They need more accountability. Darryl Rodger: They need a structure that helps them move forward in the family recovery process. I'm launching a online group coaching program for families, four parents who need the. The help understanding their role in the family recovery process and then having that accountability, like I said, that they need. Darryl Rodger: I always tell parents that they don't have any control over what their son or daughter does, but they give their son or daughter their best opportunity to recover when they. Work on themselves. When they work on their own personal development, their own personal growth, their own spiritual growth their own self-care. Darryl Rodger: When they work on that, they're putting their child in the best position they can to recover. B Reeves: Love it. What so you being an interventionist and somebody in recovery, what do you see? [00:24:00] Just as what are we doing wrong? What can we be doing better as just. There's one thing you mentioned earlier that I want you to touch on, but if there's anything else, but, so we need to be, do more connecting, not as much selling. B Reeves: Is that right? Expand on that one. Yeah. Sam Davis: You Google treatment, drug treatment. Just Google it. Bad idea, by the way, for everybody listening. Yeah. Horrible idea, right? Just Google it. Yeah. You'll see. Yeah. Healing pines by the seashore, the tranquility life of Serenity Springs. Of the hope of love. Sam Davis: They can handle all of your needs. They'll say you've got, we handle cocaine addiction. We have a methadone track, a methamphetamine track. We have a marijuana track. All these different tracks. There's too much selling and not enough connection because I can tell you what's going on from my eyes. Sam Davis: When you look at the success rates of treatment center, we were talking about this earlier today, and it's been coming up for the last couple of days. When you look at success rates of, sometimes they [00:25:00] range, what, three to 15%? Yeah. Success rates, it's not good. And we have the public, and I'm not, I don't mean to sound like I'm putting all of this on the population in the public. Sam Davis: But we have to own our role in that. If you're looking at three to 18%, or three to 13, three to 15, whatever it is, either one of 'em are low, none of 'em are acceptable. You've got a population of people where I want to go out on a limb. I don't have the research to about it. I'm gonna only go by my experiences of what I've seen in the last 12 years. Sam Davis: And what is self-reported to me from families is that 90% of the families out here and individuals that are in treatment and families that put them in treatment have don't really know down at the level necessary. Internally why their loved one is in treatment. They think that it's just to learn how to cure them of drug addiction or cure them of alcoholism or learn, teach 'em how to say no. Sam Davis: And they don't know the role they can play in their recovery [00:26:00] through boundaries. So they, what's that word? You have 90% of fam of the public. Doesn't know really why they're in treatment or why they sent their loved one to treatment you, but they're saying treatment centers are horrible, which there's a lot of bad players, but there's bad players in every industry. Sam Davis: Yet the industry has an overall better s success. Like plumbing has some bad players in it, but I'm pretty sure that they can fix your leak if you call a plumber a hundred percent of the time. More than likely, right? Yeah. There's good, there's lots of great addiction treatment around the country. Sam Davis: The people are saying these success rates suck. If you can lower the number of families, the percentage of families that don't know really why their loved one, or they're sending their loved one to treatment or why they're in treatment, if you can lower that, you're gonna increase those success rates. Sam Davis: It's, we have the treatment industry needs to take some ownership and, hey, how are we giving information to the public? We're doing too much selling and not enough [00:27:00] connecting. And the public needs to recognize and be more aware of, hey, the more educated we get, the more boundaries that we set. Sam Davis: And the more we utilize our family power, the more success we're gonna see in our loved one when they go to treatment. B Reeves: I think about these stats a lot cuz they're not good. And I wonder, and I would love to hear y'all's thoughts on this. I, part of this is just my own personal take on this, is while it's a, it couldn't be it. B Reeves: It's a great thing. That the stigma is pretty much removed from addiction and alcoholism, it's not but is it Sam Davis: though? But is it though? Because, pretty much because I, you hear when people are snapping at the industry talking about treatment programs or run by, you'll see some of these articles come out and I find it alarming because they appear to, and they. Sam Davis: They're screaming that they're advocating for the poor, sick, and suffering addicted individual. And then they'll get in there in the same breath and say that treatment centers are run by former addicts and they say it in a shaming way, like that's a bad thing. I know. Recovering addicted individuals that are [00:28:00] flying your loved one across the country in an airplane. Sam Davis: I know. Recovered individuals that are operating on your son or operating on your grandmother in the hospital. B Reeves: Yeah. There's no one I trust more than somebody in recovery. Yeah. No, but what I, but I will retract pretty much the stigma's been removed, but it's way less than it was. B Reeves: Sure. 50 years ago or more. But let's say, and I don't want to mention the specific type of recovery that I'm in, but we can guess what it is, that was founded in 1935 and the odds then, And the stats, then the chances of recovery were triple what they are now. And I wonder if part of it is because now it's so socially acceptable to be, to go to treatment. B Reeves: And that there, that it's not just the shame of that is lessened. Not saying it's gone, the stigma's not gone. But it's way, it's lessened by, significantly. And the fact that it's so accepted, I wonder if. It, there's not the [00:29:00] severity of needing help that there used to be when people would get to that level when they did find sobriety and recovery. B Reeves: But now it's, that's why we see so many people that are in and out, frequent flyers we call 'em in these places, and I just wonder if that has something to do with it, where it's a good thing that the stigma's been lessened so much, but yet it's so acceptable to go to treatment that it's not, doesn't seem like that big a deal anymore. B Reeves: Am I crazy to think that? Darryl Rodger: That's a tough one. Yeah, there, there's a balance, there that we need to strike. Yeah, I think you may be onto something there. My views have changed, since, when my son when I first found out he had a problem, I was very judgmental of people who had a drug or alcohol problem. Darryl Rodger: I didn't understand. And certainly I would say that the stigma has been reduced. I see both sides of it. I see both sides of it and it's hard to say. I. Is that playing into people, maybe it is so much more acceptable [00:30:00] now. I don't know. I can't really answer that definitively. Darryl Rodger: Yeah. I just B Reeves: What Sam Davis: do you think? I can tell, and when this thing first kicked off in 1935, it was hard to get to the grocery store in 1935. There were grocery stores all over the country. Yeah. You know what I mean? It wasn't a comfortable ride. It was, it was 1935. Yeah. Sam Davis: This thing that you're talking about just was just created. It wasn't everywhere. It wasn't broadcast everywhere. Judges weren't sending people to it. There weren't treatment centers in every town. Yeah. There were sanitariums, and the sanitarium was not a place you really wanted to go. It sounds cool. Sam Davis: Kind of sounds like aquarium. Which is cool, but a sanitarium, my friend is not a comfortable place. Yeah. So none of that was good. And then you went to find your butt in a seat. Yeah. At one of those meetings. Yeah. From the thirties to the sixties or whatever. Yeah. There was some desperation on your part, to seek out that meeting and go in there and sit down. There was some desperation. I [00:31:00] think desperation is the key. Yeah. Yeah, because now you can just wave your hand and say, whoa, oh, go to treatment. Yeah. That's a great point. Hey. The judge says, Hey, you got, or sentence you to sentence me. Sam Davis: Yeah. What, B Reeves: so judge from the judge that, but that you're, that, that's a great point. There's so it's more accessible and it's more. It might be more acceptable, but yes. It's not like you, people don't have, the bottoms have been rising as well. Yeah. Whether and it's not always up to the person what that bottom is like. B Reeves: What we all do too. That as far as I know, there weren't real interventions then. There were 12 steppers, going to 12 step people, but not, there wasn't, there just weren't so many places to go and so many and Right. The accessibility of not just booze, but. Now, be online. B Reeves: People can be, have a pharmacy in their house in, 24 hours. Yeah. But anyway, I just think about those stats. Cause they're not good. And but you're right. And it was such a smaller sample size Sam Davis: too back then. And you think about it. Yeah. Like you walk into a meeting [00:32:00] today. Sam Davis: At the end of that meeting, this is just for an example. This is one example, maybe a weird example, but I'm gonna throw it out there. You walk into a meeting today, at the end of the meeting, you circle up and you sing. You say the Serenity Prayer, and everybody just sings it off, right? Grammy, the Serenity accepted things. Sam Davis: I cannot change the courage to change the things I can, and we all seem to do this, and the willingness to know the difference and then we go on. It's like this thing in the meetings today. It's just become so. What's the word I'm looking for? Desensitized. Yeah. Like transactional? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Davis: Like it's just something that we're doing probably back in the day. They're saying, Hey, you want a little bit of serenity to get you through until the next meeting so you're not jumping out of a window or jumping in front of a bus or suck starting a 12 gauge. If you want to be granted a little bit of serenity, hey, maybe you need to really sit in silence in the morning before you get cranking up. Sam Davis: And say to accept the things I cannot change. And then you sit there for a little while and try to figure out what are the things [00:33:00] that you cannot change. And then after you've done that young man, you're gonna wanna sit there for a little bit, the courage to change the things I can. And you're gonna wanna sit there and think about what can I change? Sam Davis: And then you're gonna really be seeking through the day the wisdom to know the difference. See that's some action that was put in that can that's action steps. And back in the day when you couple that with some des more desperation that people add back then. You're gonna get better results. B Reeves: And I'm glad you brought up desperation too, because all of this to me, what I see, what really gets people to get to make a change is the g o D gift of desperation. Because we can. Lead a horse to water and we can have interventions and we can get 'em there. And like I, it wasn't, I tell people this all the time. B Reeves: We can go get sober for anybody, but we can only stay that we have way for ourselves. And I don't think, I don't see a lot of people finding, I. Lasting recovery without desperation. That gift of desperation. And I hope I never forget how [00:34:00] desperate I was. Sam Davis: What is desperation? What is surrender, right? Sam Davis: We talk about surrender. We talk about desperation. I know for me and for countless others that I know in a process when you're giving up, you have to surrender old ideas. You have to surrender old beliefs. You have to surrender old habits. That is no different than surrendering when you're an army. In a war. Sam Davis: Yeah. Or in combat. Surrender is surrender. I have never yet seen through history and I love history. Where an army or a country surrendered until they were desperate. B Reeves: That's a great point. Sam Davis: Exactly. So desperation is required. Yes. In order to surrender to, at the time, It's such a foreign concept is recovery. Sam Davis: How foreign that is to, to us. That, that our brain is telling us that if we don't have that substance in the next two minutes, we're gonna die. Even though that's not true, our mind is just about [00:35:00] telling us that, and we're buying at hook, line and sinker. Yeah. It's like we're, you're asking us to stop breathing air. Sam Davis: So in order for us to embrace that step requires surrender. And that's really what an intervention is about too, is to help create some desperation. As long as I got options, I'm not getting well. I don't care. I don't care what, how many massages I'm getting, how many, how long I'm gonna be gone or how little I'm gonna be gone, or what state I'm gonna be in. Sam Davis: I'm not going and I'm not gonna get, if I don't, if I perceive I have options to stay, what? Stay the same. Yeah, Darryl Rodger: man. I'm thinking about how all of this applies to the parent side of things, and he's talking about desperation. What I tell people, it's when you have a child that's addicted to drugs or alcohol, I. It is like you have these butterflies in your, in the pit of your stomach. They never go away, never completely go away. And you're always, there's always this little fear in the back of your mind and just takes one little thing to trigger you really, [00:36:00] to really set you off like the phone rings late at night and the first thing you've tried to suppress all these fears, right? Darryl Rodger: But the first thought that pops in your head is that the police, what do they want? But parents, that desperation drives them to control. And that's the one thing they have to get so desperate that they realize they have, they don't have any control and they have to give up those attempts at control. Darryl Rodger: And I use this visual of an archer and imagine. Your child is an arrow and you place an arrow in the string, the target that you're aiming at is a general target in that I just want them to be successful and happy, and successful in terms of finding that thing that they love to do and being good at it. Darryl Rodger: And and you aim at that target, you draw that arrow back and you release that arrow with that string and. Guess what? It happens. A lot of times their parents pull back and they get that arrow [00:37:00] back there. They find their anchor point and they don't wanna let go. And the longer you hang on, guess what happens? Darryl Rodger: Your muscles start to burn. You start to quiver, you start to shake. You don't get a smooth release. You're less likely to hit your target, but that sensation of those muscles burning, that to me that's like. That's that stress that parents are feeling when they're still trying to hang on because there is this transition process from childhood through the teenage years to adulthood. Darryl Rodger: And I don't know that anybody's really taught how to do that as a parent, especially when you have, when your first child comes along and like they're going through the teenage years and there's all this turbulence and you're going. Is that just what teenagers go through or is there something else going on here? Darryl Rodger: And a lot of times it's hard to tell is it, I was going through that with our son. Is that, is this is this just him going through his teenage years or is he using drugs? And anyway they've gotta get to that point where they're so desperate [00:38:00] that they are and that they're coached up on this, where they can let go of that arrow and then it's in God's hands. Darryl Rodger: And your child's hands because that, this arrow has a brain. And it can go wherever it wants to go, but yeah, a wind can come along and knock it off course, or it can hit a low hanging branch or whatever. Different things can happen in that arrow along the way, but it's not, There's nothing you can do about it. Darryl Rodger: You, it's up to that arrow and God at that point. And you just have to say I did my best, I did my part right? And now the rest is up to them. And it's that, trying to hang on is what causes so many problems for families. B Reeves: That's a great analogy. And just that whole, we're in the footwork business, not the results business and just, letting go and letting God Love that. B Reeves: Anybody got any final thoughts? Sam Davis: Oh shit. I had a ton of them until you Darryl Rodger: asked me. B Reeves: This is awesome. Y'all are great guests. Darryl Rodger: It's great to be here. I appreciate you [00:39:00] inviting us in. Yeah. Thank you. It's pretty B Reeves: fancy, Sam Davis: Yeah. I thought I was sitting, what's that show? Between two B Reeves: fires? Between Two fires? You thought I was just gonna insult you. The, it looks like the set come back for the nine 30 show. B Reeves: It gets a little blue. Ooh. Alright, we will, like I said, we will put all your pertinent information and post all your links and email and contact information. But anyway, just thank y'all both so much. This was awesome. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you for coming Sam Davis: down. Thanks for being on this with me too, man. Sam Davis: Thank you. Darryl Rodger: I appreciate you. I appreciate you guys inviting me in. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Show Notes In this insightful podcast episode, Sam Davis and Darryl Rodgers delve into the intricate complexities of addiction recovery, focusing on key themes of surrender and desperation. Drawing from their rich experiences as an interventionist and a family recovery coach respectively, they offer a trove of advice and wisdom to help individuals in their pursuit of recovery, encouraging them to discard old ideologies and habits for a path to wellness. Throughout their dialogue, they stress the pivotal role of acknowledging the need for assistance, urging listeners to seek support throughout their recovery journey. They further unpack the integral functions of interventionists and family recovery coaches in navigating families through the recovery process, establishing boundaries, and formulating strategies for effective interventions. Their conversation also shines a spotlight on the myriad challenges encountered during addiction treatment, encompassing the potency of substances like marijuana and alcohol, as well as issues surrounding treatment accessibility and stigma. The duo explores the critical role that self-awareness, support, and accountability play in the family recovery process. To further illuminate these aspects, they recount personal narratives, underscoring the necessity for families to retain a sense of humor and flexibility during the recovery journey. They broach the topic of parents transitioning from caretakers to guides, emphasizing the significance of relinquishing control and having faith in the recovery efforts. In essence, this podcast serves as a comprehensive guide for individuals and families who are maneuvering through the intricate labyrinth of addiction recovery. By tuning in, listeners can glean a profound understanding of the crucial role of surrender, support, and self-awareness in the recovery process, while also getting an overview of the potential obstacles and opportunities they may encounter along the way. Sam Davis Links: ⁠https://interventiononcall.com/⁠(https://interventiononcall.com/) ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@samdavisinterventions/⁠(https://www.tiktok.com/@samdavisinterventions/) ⁠https://www.instagram.com/interventiononcall/⁠(https://www.instagram.com/interventiononcall/) ⁠https://www.facebook.com/InterventionOnCall⁠(https://www.facebook.com/InterventionOnCall) Darryl Rodgers Links: ⁠https://www.thefamilyrecoverycoach.com/⁠(https://www.thefamilyrecoverycoach.com/) ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilyrecoverycoach⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@thefamilyrecoverycoach) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠ (https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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Join us for an enlightening episode of Finding New Waters with Isaac Waters, founder of Recovery Frameworks. We discuss interventions, Isaac's personal journey through addiction, the power of peer support, and his efforts in establishing a Collegiate Recovery Program. Discover the nuances of recovery and find inspiration in Isaac's story. < Back to Episodes Peer Support and Sobriety: Isaac Waters' Key to Success 33:07 min | Issac Waters | Finding New Waters Join us for an enlightening episode of Finding New Waters with Isaac Waters, founder of Recovery Frameworks. We discuss interventions, Isaac's personal journey through addiction, the power of peer support, and his efforts in establishing a Collegiate Recovery Program. Discover the nuances of recovery and find inspiration in Isaac's story. Subscribe I think a big thing about interventions today is that historically and what you saw on TV was this like surprise factor. Like let's trick your loved one into coming to a place where they're not gonna be comfortable, where they're gonna have their guard up and where they're, you're gonna sit down and read them some letters. That's not how like 85% of them are done today." - Issac Waters Podcast Transcript #013 Issac Waters Issac Waters: [00:00:00] I think a big thing. About like interventions today is that historically and what you saw on TV was this like surprise factor. Like let's trick your loved one into coming to a place where they're not gonna be comfortable, where they're gonna have their guard up and where they're, you're gonna sit down and read them some letters. Issac Waters: That's not how like 85% of them are done today. There are still some people who do it that way, but, It's not the majority of it now, and Graham Doerge: there are some circumstances where maybe that's your only option. It's your only option, right? Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. I'm joined today by [00:01:00] our Director of Admissions and Outreach Bee Reeves and Isaac Waters, who's the founder of Recovery Frameworks. Graham Doerge: Recovery Frameworks offers non-clinical support services to supplement the teams of individuals with substance use disorder and eating disorders. Isaac Waters is a certified peer specialist, a life coach and certified Arise interventionist. He works extensively with individuals and families who are struggling with navigating early recovery from addictions mental health. Graham Doerge: Mental health barriers and eating disorders. In the past, he's dealt with his own struggles with substance use disorders, mental health challenges, and family systems. In long-term recovery. Isaac now dedicates his life to working with individuals in recovery. It has his passion to help families heal, to watch individuals launch into a new phase of life and help those he works with find purpose. Graham Doerge: Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one while struggling with substance use or mental health issues. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We [00:02:00] hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour for many families. Graham Doerge: Isaac, thank you for joining us today. Happy to be here. Thank you guys. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Of course. And, um, this has been kind of long overdue and happy to finally have you up here. And, um, so Isaac is actually joining us today from Atlanta, uh, flew up last night. So we're very grateful for him, you know, traveling all this way in person. Graham Doerge: Um, and you know, I, I was doing a little bit of research leading up to this and um, you know, one of the things that kind of I came across early on was that you were a guy that got sober very young, right? Yes. How old were you when you got sober? I was 19 when I got Issac Waters: sober. Graham Doerge: Absolutely incredible. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Teenager. Teenager. And you know, for me, you know, I was 26 when I finally ended up getting sober, but um, I definitely could have gotten sober a lot younger. You know, for me it was, drinking was really. It was never a social thing, it was always an issue. I was drinking tequila by myself at 14 years old in my bedroom while I was supposed to be doing homework, which is not a, a normal, you know, behavior [00:03:00] pattern by any means. Graham Doerge: And, um, you know, so, you know, what was interesting was that my family was very much in the dark. And you know, I grew up in one of those families where, you know, you don't talk about those uncomfortable things, right? You kind of, you sweep everything under the rug. And I always find it so interesting when people get sober that young and are able to sustain long-term super. Graham Doerge: Variety for, for that long in that period of time. And um, so tell us a little bit about what, what that was like and, and kind of some of your experiences getting sober that Issac Waters: young. Yeah, definitely. I think it was, uh, I, I come from a family that, like alcoholism has ran rampant through like I'm, uh, I think fifth generation at this point. Issac Waters: Mm-hmm. And so it was no surprise. Like my, my mom, I can remember when I was 12 years old being like, Hey, you might have a problem with this one day. And like, that was the last time we talked Graham Doerge: about it. Are, is your family in Issac Waters: recovery? So my father is, well, there you go. Yeah. So I, I think that I briefly mentioned it, we were talking about another treatment center before the podcast and I was like, yeah, my dad went there a few times. Issac Waters: And so that was, uh, that was like my childhood and I grew up that way. And it was kind of, I can remember like dare coming to schools and stuff like that. And I was always the first one to sign my name [00:04:00] cuz I like, knew like what drugs and alcohol did to people. And like my dad was very successful. Mm-hmm. Issac Waters: Like, it was not like one of those stories. And so I had. You know, some of that stigma was already broken down to me. I knew it could happen to anybody. And, uh, I always told myself it wasn't gonna happen to me and I was a late bloomer in my friend group and like, it was the first thing, I was the first one to fall down too. Issac Waters: So, um, I think that like from the moment I started using, I. Like drugs and alcohol. I knew that it was gonna be a problem. Like there was no doubt. Um, I knew that I liked it more than my friends and it took me quickly. Like I think that I took my first drink at 16 and I was in a treatment center at 17, so. Issac Waters: Wow. Like very fast, right? Very fast. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And mom and dad probably picked up on it very fast too. Right? My dad Issac Waters: was still drinking. Oh, so he was still drinking? Yeah, he was my little hideout. So I would go out there when I'd get in trouble with mom and like dad, like was none the wiser on to what was going on. Issac Waters: And. Um, I got in a lot of trouble very quickly as well, and so I think that like when that. Like Sharad fell down. My parents were very attentive. Mm-hmm. Um, and I went through this period where I [00:05:00] would go to treatment and my dad would be drinking. I'd come back from treatment and he would go to treatment. Issac Waters: So we did this thing for like three years where like we'd each, you know, when the other one was in treatment, we would relapse, like whoever was at home. And then finally my dad and I went to treatment at the same time. Um, we went to the same treatment facility. No way. Yeah, same treatment facility. Wow. I got there like three months later than he did, and when I walked in the door they were like, oh, you're Dave's son. Issac Waters: We've been expecting you. And I was like, you guys are awful. Um, so, uh, yeah, my dad and I have, my dad's got, uh, like three more months than I do sober, and we've both been able to maintain it. That's at this point crazy. Graham Doerge: And mom had to deal with Issac Waters: all that. Mom got the short end of the stick. For sure. For sure. Issac Waters: She is an a saint. She's a saint, yes. A saint. Lovely woman. Lovely woman. Graham Doerge: So, and so how many times were you in treatment? Issac Waters: I went to treatment, uh, if you count like PHP and iops after residential, I went to six different facilities. Graham Doerge: Gotcha. Um, but that was a lot of, it was kind of a continuation, a step down from residential. Graham Doerge: Always Issac Waters: a [00:06:00] step down. Yep. Um, and so I. Each time I went to treatment, I would come back and do an I O P when I got out. Got it. Graham Doerge: Um, so what do you think was, was one of the kind of key factors in, in you being able to figure this out at such a Issac Waters: young age? Yeah, so I went to, uh, Talbot Recovery, uh, when I was 19. Issac Waters: And at the time they had a young adult program. Mm-hmm. And so, I had been thrown into like teen treatment centers where nobody wanted to be there. Yeah. Um, and then I had been thrown into the, like generic, you know, insurance mail treatment facility down in Florida and, you know, just across, like, I'm sitting next to a 75 year old woman that's there for opiates and like, I'm not, I have nothing to identify with her. Issac Waters: Right. And then, When I sat in that room and there was 45 guys between 18 and 25 like that, were talking about recovery and like trying to do things and talking about going to college or talking about being in college and how they're gonna navigate this now. I think that it was the first time that I like had tried this recovery way of life and did not feel hopeless. Issac Waters: So like there was something to achieve just beyond getting [00:07:00] sober that like my life had purpose again. Wow, that's Graham Doerge: awesome. How did you B Reeves: manage to not only stay sober but have fun? Going to the College of Charleston. Issac Waters: Yeah. So I sober, I waited two years into my recovery to go to college. So like I really wanted to be prepared for that like scene, you know? Issac Waters: Mm-hmm. Because College Charleston's a big party scene. Like everything that I ever knew about college, it was just like one big party. And, uh, beyond the academics, like I was kind of nervous or. About navigating that. And, uh, I had this core group of friends that were all sober and all young and all doing things like they all had this thing that they were passionate about. Issac Waters: They had all gone to college or they were coming back and they were in med school, or they were in PT school, and I. So this group, uh, there was like seven or eight of us that we just like hung out all the time. Like when someone was outta school or someone was off work. There was, we lived in the house that everybody came by to, to like get together on a Friday night. Issac Waters: And sometimes we would do a meeting, sometimes we would do a poker game. Sometimes we would go out to eat, like whatever it was I had, you know, I, I believe [00:08:00] that people sober up. You know, together, but they stay sober in packs. Like people find their core group and they stick together. You know, last year I was in five weddings of those guys. Issac Waters: Wow. Um, and so like everyone has continued to stay sober and I, I think that it, it's like a testament to like what we did very early Graham Doerge: on. That's amazing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's, and it's incredible too because, um, you know, unfortunately, Most colleges are not very open to having a lot of these supportive services on their campus. Graham Doerge: Right. And it's like they don't wanna recognize the fact that they've got a substance use problem or a mental health problem on their, on their, uh, on their campus. And, um, they would rather just kick the kid out or, you know, just kind of, you know, not deal with the issue rather than somehow supporting or, or creating some resources on campus that can support their students that are. Graham Doerge: In sobriety. Right. So, and I think College of Charleston, going back to that is a really interesting one because they're one of these, you know, programs that have been really open to it and have done an incredible job at creating a collegiate program, um, for recovery. And, uh, you were one of the founders of [00:09:00] their collegiate program. Graham Doerge: So can you kind of talk about that process and getting that launched? Oh my, like, gosh, Issac Waters: how much time do we have? Um, yeah. So. That we started that initiative in 2015, and it was, uh, several of my friends, uh, Steve Pulley, who was a great guy who had gone through the collegiate recovery program at Georgia Southern, which was one of the first they got, um, that grant from Texas Tech and, and have been up and running for a long time that, uh, he was coming back to. Issac Waters: M U S C for, uh, PT school. That was one of the guys that I was just mentioning. Mm-hmm. And so he came down and, uh, another friend of mine, Sam Stafford, had gone to Augsburg College, which was the second collegiate recovery program. He had just moved to Charleston. My friend John Nicks was starting at C ffc. Issac Waters: He had done a semester and I had been applying for, you know, two years to get into the College of Charleston and kept getting denied. And so, right. Uh, we had started going, but you're a servant. Yeah. Resilient, I think is, that's good. And so that's what I say. Um, we had started going to them and saying like, Hey, we'd like to start this, you know, initiative on campus. Issac Waters: Like [00:10:00] we only had one actual student and just like three random guys were knocking on doors saying like, we'd like to help you guys start this. And, uh, we kept hearing that same thing, like, if we start a program like this, it's admitting that we have a drug problem on campus. Mm-hmm. And it's like, It's not admitting you have a drug problem, it is admitting that there are students in recovery on your campus, like, which is, uh, two. Issac Waters: It's totally two very different things. Yep. And finally, I'm sitting in an office one day. We had like somehow finacle this meeting with the dean of students who, you know, the last time I was sitting in a dean's office, like I was being asked to leave my high school, you know, and so everyone had got around and we had like a federal judge in the room. Issac Waters: We had like three tenured professors. Everyone's giving these like long, like, you know, Explanations of who they are and why they're here. And I was like, my name's Isaac Waters. Like I've applied to your school seven times and been denied. Like, I wanna help you guys. And uh, I got a call like, I think a week later that I had been accepted. Issac Waters: Um, wow. And so we got started, we applied for a grant and received it. And, uh, me and John Nicks met with, you know, Dr. Jerry Cabot at the time was [00:11:00] the dean of students. We met with her once a week and just like started resource mapping. Um, wow. And seeing like who the players were who could support this, what, what could we do? Issac Waters: And finally the school was like, we can't give you guys any money. Like we, we can't do it. And we were all like, we want you to hire a director. We want you to hire a director. We want our own physical space. Like we had a lot of, a ton of big asks for them. Mm-hmm. And uh, they were like, well, if you go raise, you know, a. Issac Waters: Half a million dollars, we'll start this thing for you. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we were all like, hopeless, like, you know, little kids. And the first person that we talked to donated $118,000 on the spot. Wow. That's incredible. And so after that, you know, it just like snowballed, you know, she held a fundraiser at our house. Issac Waters: We got, you know, uh, over 300,000. Dollars donated in like two months. Uh, and then we started the director search and uh, I think that you guys both know wood marching at this point. Mm-hmm. He's the director there. He has been since 2016. And you know, it started with two students and at this point it's graduated like 35 and there's 20 active students in the program today. Issac Waters: Wow. [00:12:00] Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Very cool. Incredible. Very cool. Yeah, and I actually went. There, uh, a few months back and I visited with wood, uh, Marshant, and he is, um, you know, still just, you know, he's in there every day with these guys and they're grinding and, and if they have this, this little office space with, you know, tons of snacks and food and, you know, all the guys come in and just hang out in between class and do homework and, and it's just a real community within this community, you know? Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's just like, I, I just don't understand why we can't wrap our head around why we need these resources in these colleges. Right. I mean, you know, listen, we're dealing with the, one of the biggest epidemics that we've ever seen, and now coming off of the pandemic, I mean, it's, you know, people can't get into doctors, they can't get into providers. Graham Doerge: They, you know, we're going downhill fast and um, and we just need to wake up. Mm-hmm. You know? Well, I love B Reeves: the idea of the collegiate recovery. You know, instead of having to admit or, you know, air quotes, having to admit, we have a problem here. It's more like, How about we have now we have a solution. Right. B Reeves: Totally. Here, you know, that's so cool. And it's interesting, the schools who, [00:13:00] um, have gotten gotten it, you know, Texas Tech and Augsburg mm-hmm. Didn't know about that. But then, um, Uh, Charlotte, Graham Doerge: you from Alabama? Issac Waters: Alabama. You guys here in North Carolina? Actually, the state, uh, requires it. So if, if you're a state run university here in north, in North Carolina, you have to have a is that's, uh, 2015. Issac Waters: Wow. Yeah. So cool. You guys have done really cool Graham Doerge: job here. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. B Reeves: Um, what do you tell, I mean, What's the demographic of you people, you, uh, you work with typically from in recovery Issac Waters: frameworks? Yeah. Um, at recovery frameworks. We see this like bizarre end into the spectrum because I think obviously like, just due to my history, like we do a ton of college age individuals. Issac Waters: Um, so we see this. Interesting. Like kind of spread, it's 13 to 20 and then it is 55 to 70. Hmm. Um, and so we are getting individuals that this might be their first like suaree into like recovery initiatives or treatment or complex kind of issues. [00:14:00] And then we see individuals who are kind of in their retired life and like have, you know, uh, started some habits that aren't necessarily supportive to their long-term health. Issac Waters: Right. Basically two B Reeves: demo, uh, parts of, you know, two demographics that don't work. Yeah, Issac Waters: exactly. That about is about right. Life transitions, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Life transitions. Yeah, life transitions Graham Doerge: and, and let's even, you know, back up a little bit more on that and say, you know, so you do sober companion jobs? Graham Doerge: Yeah. You do. Um, you know, you work with clients or are struggling with eating disorders, mental health. Um, case management and interventions. Um, so can you just tell us a little bit about, like, for instance, so the audience knows what is a sober transport or, or a companion job? Yeah, definitely. Issac Waters: I can, I can give the, the overview. Issac Waters: Yeah, like I think when we started, I, I really thought that we were gonna be serving just this like 18 to 22 cause that's where I was when I got sober. So it was just gonna be, you know, kids kind of entering college or might have. Failed outta college and we were gonna start on a coaching side and our coaches meet with our, the people that we serve anywhere from like five to 20 hours a week. Issac Waters: And that's, you know, kind of [00:15:00] across the spectrum. So any of our sober coaches, our eating disorder coaches are our mental health coaches. What we do is we've got a 12 week curriculum that we're getting them started with, and that's, uh, really we have a very extensive matchmaking process. So anyone who's onboarding with us, As a client goes through a little mock mini assessment and we're figuring out different things like hobby skills, interests, strengths, uh, we're looking at their past attempts at recovery, like what they're doing today, what does their lifestyle look like. Issac Waters: They're getting a lifestyle assessment in that as well. And then we're matching them up with a coach that's gonna be the best fit for them. Mm-hmm. And so you're getting someone who is tailor-made to you that has the same hobbies, has the same interest, has the same like path to recovery that you're go like. Issac Waters: Striving for. So if you want to do 12 step, you're getting matched up with someone who does 12 step. If you want to do, uh, you know, faith-based recovery, you're getting matched with a faith-based recovery coach. And so, and you've got coaches all over the country? All over the country. Yeah. So our biggest chapters are in Atlanta, Raleigh, Charleston, Nashville, New York City, Miami, and la.[00:16:00] Issac Waters: Um, that's where we have the, the widest roster of coaches. And so all of our. You know, that kind of bleeds into our companion side as well. Companions and coaches have the exact same job. The only difference is time. So companions live with their clients. So that's 24 7. Um, I'll say on average our coaching clients, you know, those people meeting part-time stay with us for about 13 months. Issac Waters: So we get them for a very long period of time. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. Uh, a, a really unique way to do that and our. Companion or live-in, on average I think is 75 days. So someone who's leaving treatment, leaving a detox facility, that might not have the capabilities to go to a long-term treatment center like that mm-hmm. Issac Waters: They're going to, you know, use a companion to kind of come into the house, set them up, make sure that they're making it to all their appointments, you know, that the, if they have some complex kind of psychiatric or psychological needs, that they are bringing that into the house as well. And we can facilitate all that through our case management side. Issac Waters: Mm-hmm. So, Graham Doerge: And so who's a good candidate for the companion job? Issac Waters: Um, yeah, [00:17:00] I think it's, it's across the spectrum. You know, what we talk about sometimes is, is the younger side, like someone who is in college that might have had, you know, taken the summer off to go get well. Mm-hmm. And they've gone to treatment over the summer, or they might have had a medical withdrawal in the past semester and they're determined just like I was to return to the college Charleston or to go to the College of Charleston. Issac Waters: They're determined to go back to that university even though their parents are like, whoa, you, you kind of hit. A lot of roadblocks when you were going to school there. Like, why don't we think about somewhere new? And, and talking to a young person like that, like my big thing is like, let's use their strengths. Issac Waters: They wanna go back to college. Like, let's just make sure that they have the support structure around them to do so. And so that's a great candidate. Um, another great candidate is that kind of executive. Mm-hmm. So, uh, someone who. Necessarily does need this accountability. Um, someone who might be traveling a lot for work or someone who kind of might not have accountability in the household. Issac Waters: Uh, someone who does need that kind of supportive structure, that coach to sit with them and say like, we can't get through today. This is what we're gonna do. This is how we're building your schedule. This is what we're gonna do tonight to make sure that we're following through on this recovery [00:18:00] side of things. Issac Waters: And I'm gonna make sure that you're safe in your own house. Right? Yeah. What Graham Doerge: about for, B Reeves: for people who are, say, I've got a wedding this weekend. I've been at a treatment for, you know, two weeks. I'm doing all right, but I'm going to this wedding. You know, my best friend from college is getting married. Yeah. B Reeves: Would do you do companion just for that the weekend or hundred be a Issac Waters: Okay. Yeah, a hundred percent. So we do short-term stays and long-term stays. Okay. So, um, most of the time it's, it's just like that for the short term side of things. Like, I've got a family vacation or I've got, you know, this thing that I can't miss. Issac Waters: I'm a little nervous about it. Mm-hmm. Um, A big one for us is actually Christmas. Christmas Day is people who are like going around their family for the first time after treatment and they're a little bit nervous about it and they just want that backup and support. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wonderful. And how do B Reeves: you find the, uh, people who are the companions, who are the coaches in especially where, in cities where you're not necessarily like in that? B Reeves: Area or that familiar with Issac Waters: it. Recruitment's a huge part of what I do. Um, and finding those profiles is something that is pretty unique. Cuz you think about like someone who's essentially gonna be living with someone, like they gotta be likable, um mm-hmm. They've gotta be really good [00:19:00] at their job because this is important, uh, a line of work and they've got to have like, Intuition and determination. Issac Waters: Mm-hmm. And so a lot of those things are things that I can't train. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I travel all the time. I meet people wherever I can. I meet people in recovery initiatives, I go to meetings all over different types of meetings, styles of meetings. I get introduced by other people that are interested in this line of work. Issac Waters: We've got, you know, a five-step interview process with references and then personally app. Personality tests and assessments that we do with them. And so it just gets further and further and along and, and I find that that weeds out to people who probably won't be a good fit for something like this. Cuz if you can't make it through this five stage interview process, you're probably not gonna make it through 90 days living with someone else. Issac Waters: A hundred percent. And so, uh, I think that that's a big thing. Another thing, On the companionship line that we do really well is that we check in on them. I think that a lot of agencies are like, here's your job, here's your location. Mm-hmm. You know, meet them there. Um, I call them three times a day. I'm like, what are you doing? Issac Waters: How are you doing? Mm-hmm. Like, what's going on? Um, so they're never on an island out [00:20:00] there. It's a big thing. They're always supported from the home office. B Reeves: What are their, what are like a couple things they have absolutely have to have Mean, do they have to be. It's sober, been, Issac Waters: uh, long-term recovery is, uh, number one. Issac Waters: So we do a lot of work on the mental health side as well. And so anytime we are working with a complex mental health case, they have to have some type of clinical licensure, uh, whether that's K d A, whether that's msw, whether that's, you know, uh, lp. C, LP, c a. Um, so they have to have that side of it for the mental health, uh, for the, uh, Like substance use, long-term recovery. Issac Waters: So have to have more than five years to work as a sober coach with us. Uh, which is a, a, a good thing for us because I think that that five year mark is, is pretty, uh, you just look at statistics at long-term recovery and like after five years, your odds of like lifelong recovery go up by 85%, right? So, Yep. Issac Waters: Exponentially. Graham Doerge: Yeah, exponentially. Yeah. I mean, man, the companion job is, is uh, a wild one. Yeah, it really is. It is. You're going and living with Yeah. With folks for, you know, a month, two months at a time. Nine months. Yeah, [00:21:00] nine months. I mean, you've done a nine month Issac Waters: job. We've, we've had them, and, and it's have something you personally, Graham Doerge: what's the longest Issac Waters: you've done? Issac Waters: No, longest one that I've done is, uh, three months. Three months. Three months. And that's with leave. All of our. Contracts we like write into it that like, our companions work three weeks on, four days off, so. Got it. Um, and we like ship them all over the country wherever they want to go. Like, what resort do you wanna be at for four days? Issac Waters: Like right back. Yeah. Go check in on yourself. Yeah. Love it. Graham Doerge: So what about, um, so you are an arise interventionist as well. Mm-hmm. Right. So what would you say, would you say that you're doing your, your company and, and business now is comprised, you know, you're doing more interventions, more companion Issac Waters: jobs, or I would say that, uh, mostly companion. Issac Waters: Jobs, uh, and then coaching, and then interventions, um, interventions really, uh, we, our entire office got trained in that so that we could kind of, I guess more so use that out of need. Um, and it's a great way for us to cooperate and collaborate with treatment centers too. Yep. [00:22:00] Um, so I think that that was, uh, really the purpose of that was so that we could kind of be more of a tool in the landscape of these nonclinical services. Issac Waters: Yeah. B Reeves: Yeah. What would you say we. Here at New Waters. And then in our personal lives, we all talk to people who, the families are calling me as an employee here. Yeah. And me as somebody in recovery. And it's true for everybody here. And then they're just not willing to really go that next step and go the intervention route. B Reeves: They think they can just sort of cobble together something. And what would you say to families who are sort of like, they know about 'em and they probably from what they've seen on tv, Oh, and yeah, exactly. So what do you, what do you say to them about like, you know, the value you add? Issac Waters: Yeah. Don't trust what you see on tv. Issac Waters: I think that that's what we know these days, right? Yeah. Um, so, uh, I think a big thing. About like interventions today is that historically and what you saw on TV was this like surprise factor. Mm-hmm. Like, let's trick your loved one mm-hmm. Into coming to a place where they're not gonna be comfortable, where they're gonna have their guard up and where they're, you're gonna sit down and read [00:23:00] them some letters. Issac Waters: That's not how like 85% of them are done today. There are still some people who do it that way. Mm-hmm. But, It's not the majority of it now, and there are some Graham Doerge: circumstances where maybe that's your only option. It's your only option, right? Yeah. You know, and you do have to pull that card. It's, you know, probably not the best, the first choice. Graham Doerge: Right. It's not the first choice, you know? And you're an Arise intervention inter interventionist. Mm-hmm. So you can talk a little bit about what that means Issac Waters: too. Yeah. So the Arise model is invitational intervention, and so that's looking more so at the family system as a whole, instead of the individual as the problem. Issac Waters: Which I think as a person in recovery, like I can really identify with that because. I, I mean, my family held an intervention on me. I'm in a like therapy session with, you know, my father who is intoxicated, like, and I'm thinking that this is family intervention. And I'm like so excited to walk into this meeting to tell him like how bad he is and all this kind of stuff. Issac Waters: And 10 minutes into it, he's like, you're missing the elephant in the room. And I'm like, well, what's that dad? And like, knock, knock, knock. And like my mom, my grandparents, like my cousins like all walk into this therapist's office and I was like, you tricked me. Like, you know. Yeah. [00:24:00] And I didn't listen to a thing that they said. Issac Waters: Um, and so I think anytime someone can make a, a deliberate choice in themselves to say like, I want to go to treatment, that your odds of getting them to treatment a increase. Like you're not gonna have this person who's just like saying yes so that they can then run away as soon as you let 'em out of the room. Issac Waters: But B, you're setting them up. For success in the long run. And then as an, as an interventionist like working to make sure that the family doesn't stop working when the loved one gets into treatment. That's the biggest value add because holding these families accountable and like putting them in their own like, Style of family treatment and, and getting them plugged in with resources as well. Issac Waters: Like we know that when families are working on themselves and working through the systems issues that they have as a, you know, this is a family disease that as they work on themselves, the odds of successful recovery for the one that they've been worried about for so long increase as well, so, mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. Um, and so tell me a little bit, like, kind of just fast tracking into your life now. Yeah. You know, that's your [00:25:00] business and, and obviously how you, you know, and, and listen to, I, I can relate to this as well and I'm sure that you got into this field because, you know, like myself, it was after getting sober and going through treatment, it was like, gosh, if I can do what. Graham Doerge: You know, those guys did for me and make a career out of it. What an amazing way to make a living. Right? And helping people and, and, you know, ultimately saving, helping people save their lives. So what are you doing now for your recovery and, and your life, and what is life like now Issac Waters: for you? Oh, uh, it's a dream. Issac Waters: Um, I think that, like, you know, I was, I was lucky enough to celebrate 10 years, uh, earlier this year, and like never thought A, that that was possible. And like, b I think that. My recovery has shifted so much since the pandemic that like, I really didn't know what it was gonna look like these days. And so when you took meetings away from me, which was like a huge aspect of that social recovery that I, I like, grew to love and what I found out like need. Issac Waters: Mm-hmm. Um, I had to create new ways to do that when, when we all went on lockdown. And so [00:26:00] I find that today, like the biggest thing that I do to support my, like recovery is, is a wellness. Like that was something that I did not incorporate in my first five years. And so I think that. Like, just in and of itself, like I make sure that I'm following a structure, I'm following a routine. Issac Waters: I like watch what I like, you know, ingest and, and I try to, to stay on the healthier side of things and be it staying in touch with the people that I'm close with. Mm-hmm. Like, it's the connections that I have, not only in recovery, um, but in family and friends and, and all of that. And then it's making sure that I'm still like suiting up and showing up to the place, uh, into my 12 step meetings and like raising my hand when people say that they need help and like saying like, this is what I'm here to do. Issac Waters: Yeah. So this is how I did it. If you'd like to do it this way, we can. Yeah. You Graham Doerge: gotta give it away. Yeah. Gotta give it away. Yeah, and I think that it's that, uh, and what I kind of heard there was like balance, right? And finding a balance. And, um, that's, that's been a constant struggle for me in recovery. And, you know, obviously, you know, starting a business is tough. Graham Doerge: You know, we're, we've been open for six months here, uh, a little over [00:27:00] six months now here. New, new waters and. You know, finding that balance can be really, really tough sometimes. And um, you know, so what are those, some of those tools that you have to really kind of get yourself back on track when you kind of find yourself going off? Graham Doerge: Uh, I Issac Waters: would say that my biggest tool is my calendar today. Like, that's my biggest thing because, uh, I put things on my calendar that I want to do, things that I have to do, and things that like I probably need to do, you know, like my. My therapy appointments go on there. And I know that I can't book anything around that. Issac Waters: Like the gym goes on there, I know that I can't book anything around that. And then, uh, inevitably like it is just like holding myself accountable to the own own goals that I'm setting for myself. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes that goal is, is you know, like make it to four meetings this week cuz you were only able to make it to one last week. Issac Waters: Sometimes it's, you know, uh, we're gonna spend this much time with like family, we're gonna spend this much time with friends. Like, and uh, I think that at the end of my week I always like kind of. I have two calendars. I have one for what I set out to do and one for what I actually did. So like I measure like the differences and uh, I think the balance like [00:28:00] comes out in that because when I find that, you know, oh eight, I took work calls from six to ten one night when I was like supposed to like go to the gym and go have dinner with my friends. Issac Waters: Like there's something there. Um, And inevitably work wins. I'll tell you that. Like work, work always ends as a business owner. Like it's, it's impossible for it not to. And the phones Graham Doerge: ringing seven days a week. Seven days a week, right? Yeah. And 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day. Yeah. Nice. So, and we pick it up and people are always amazed when, you know, or, or like on Saturday night when we're on a phone call with the family at nine 30, they're like, I'm so sorry. Graham Doerge: I'm so sorry to keep you. And it's like, this is like literally, I'm doing this on a daily basis. So, yeah. And Issac Waters: what's so crazy is that it's their worst day. Mm-hmm. And it's like, It's our every day, you know, like, this is what we do. It B Reeves: makes me happy to be able to help someone, even if even it is, is my job. B Reeves: But I still love doing it. Yeah, definitely. But I love what you said about the counter. I just recently, um, realized I just wasn't, you know, even the nights I had kind of scheduled to go to meetings the way our, you know, schedules work, that I just wasn't going to as many. So I, every Tuesday. Like, I'm still gonna go to some at night, but I have one that [00:29:00] I just, and I have, since I put it on my calendar, I've been every time. B Reeves: Yeah. And I just have to do it right. You know? And if it's there, then I will respect the calendar. And you know, that first week I remember thinking like, well this guy's coming in, but somebody else could handle it. So I just went, if nothing else, to set the precedent that I'm gonna do this for myself. B Reeves: Yeah. Um, and then I just listened to a podcast the other day. I ran into a guy I know from the 12 step rooms at the gym who told me I should listen to this podcast about burnout. And it was, and it was a similar conversation about, um, you know, the, the calendar being a tool. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting to hear that. B Reeves: And, you know, we're talking about recovery and spirituality and it's like my outlet calendar is my most valuable tool, but I, I hear Issac Waters: you. We talk about like this pandemic of substance use and like that's why, you know, of course we're seeing the numbers increase of treatment admissions, but I think that there's a pandemic inside of the providers that, and that's burnout, like Yeah, a hundred percent. Issac Waters: I mean, how many times, like the turnover of like in all of that stuff, it's exactly right. Um, so Graham Doerge: it's hard band and, and, um, you know, medical providers with [00:30:00] clinicians especially. Um, and, um, you know, we actually next month are doing an episode on, on this podcast. Perfect. Perfect burnout. Perfect. So, Everybody tune in next month from burnout episode, Dr. Graham Doerge: Burn. Issac Waters: Nice little, nice burnout, Dr. Nice plug. Nice plug. Graham Doerge: Like that. So, um, no, so I, I totally agree with that and that's like a constant battle for me, man. And for me it's so much of it. And you kind of, you added or touched on it with like the eating, the working out, like the holistic stuff that we're doing, whether it's like meditation or journaling. Graham Doerge: Sleep. Sleep. Pl is the biggest, right? What'd you say? Yes. Cold plunge. Cold plunge. Yeah. Yes. Cold, hot, cold therapy. Yeah. Um, you know, biohacking, all that stuff is, is great. And, um, and when I'm not doing it, you know, I just, there's a, a total difference mm-hmm. In, in my day, you know? Right. So, um, I, you know, wish or I try to do that every day in my, in my world, but it's just, it's tough sometimes, you know? Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course. B Reeves: What's your meditation practice? Issac Waters: Uh, my meditation practice is five [00:31:00] minutes every morning with a cup of coffee. So I sit there. I do. Quiet for five minutes, and then I read, I've got the 24 hour book that I read every day. Yeah. And you've Graham Doerge: been reading that for 10 years? 10 years. I still have my 24 hours a day. Graham Doerge: Fuck that I got in treatment. Yeah. Issac Waters: Yeah. My father mailed me one. Yeah. Um, my grandfather mailed me one. The second time I went to treatment. My grandfather was in recovery as well. Um, that's amazing. Yeah. So we would all three go to meetings together, which is pretty special. That's B Reeves: so cool. Yeah. I've never seen that. B Reeves: I've seen a few father, son, father, uh, mother daughter thing, but never a Yeah. There were three Issac Waters: generations. Three generations. Yeah. Graham Doerge: That's really cool. It would be interesting to do your genogram too. Oh, I've done it. And see kind of like the patterns as they, as they break down. And then, and then your future generations now after. Graham Doerge: You guys have all hopefully broken the cycle to some extent. Issac Waters: Yeah, I think, uh, I did one a couple years ago and was looking at my family and every, uh, like waters in the family tree was actively in recovery. Wow. And so really? Yeah, male. Like only the men, like not on the women's side. Like, it's just like the men and, uh, I [00:32:00] had a cousin who was in recovery, uncle, who's in recovery. Issac Waters: Like, um, you know, I got, my baby cousin called me like three months ago and was like, I think I might have a problem. And I was like, yeah, bud, look at your family tree. You know, like, Graham Doerge: yeah. Yeah. We knew it. It was coming. We knew it when you were sex. Yeah. So and so Well, Isaac, thank you so much for joining us today. Graham Doerge: It's, uh, been such a pleasure getting to know you a little bit better, hearing about your work. Obviously you're doing incredible work and, um, you know, looking. Forward to collaborating with you on, on Clients down the road. Um, but as well, um, we will have all of Isaac's information on our website, finding new waters.com as well. Graham Doerge: This will be broadcast on all, uh, podcast platforms. So, uh, please come and check us out, uh, for next next week's episode as well. And thank you for being here. Happy to be here. Thanks. Thank you guys. Thank you for calling. Thanks guys. Thank you, Graham.[00:33:00] Show Notes In this stimulating episode of Finding New Waters, we have the pleasure of hosting Issac Waters, the inspirational founder of Recovery Frameworks. With an extensive background as a Certified Peer Specialist, Life Coach, and Certified Arise Interventionist, Isaac specializes in aiding those who are in the early stages of recovery from addictions, mental health challenges, and eating disorders. Drawing from his own experiences with Substance Use Disorder and Mental Health Challenges, Isaac has turned his past struggles into a source of strength, dedicating his life to serving those on their own recovery journey. We initiate the conversation by examining common misconceptions surrounding interventions. Isaac helps to dispel the dated notion of interventions as surprise confrontations, pointing out that today's methods prioritize establishing a safe, supportive environment for the individual grappling with addiction. Our host, Graham Doerge, founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, guides Isaac in narrating his personal experiences with substance abuse, beginning with his teenage years. Isaac's candid narrative sheds light on the unique hurdles he faced during his youthful recovery. He pays tribute to his family's significant role in his journey, especially considering his father's parallel struggles with addiction. Isaac brings a captivating concept to our attention - 'sobering up in packs'. He recounts how his close-knit circle of friends had a significant influence on his journey to sobriety and continues to be a vital source of support. This mutual camaraderie and shared experiences have been instrumental in maintaining his recovery and fostering a sense of purpose. We also explore Isaac's noteworthy contribution to establishing a Collegiate Recovery Program at the College of Charleston. Isaac gives a detailed account of the hurdles he encountered, stemming largely from a societal stigma that acknowledging such a program implies a campus-wide drug issue. This episode offers invaluable insights into the nuances of interventions, recovery, and the indispensable role of peer support in long-term sobriety. Isaac's story underscores that recovery goes beyond overcoming addiction; it involves discovering a sense of purpose and embracing life anew. Outside of his professional endeavors, Isaac is an ardent fitness enthusiast and foodie, enjoying trying out new restaurants and grilling. A golfer at heart, he has also recently developed a passion for pickleball. He also enjoys spending his leisure time catching up on TV shows. Join us for this enlightening and motivational conversation with Isaac Waters. 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Dive into the depths of addiction, recovery, and family support in this insightful episode of Finding New Waters, featuring John Craichy, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, and change management < Back to Episodes John Craichy Overcoming Addiction and Supporting Loved Ones 49:36 min | John Craichy | Finding New Waters Dive into the depths of addiction, recovery, and family support in this insightful episode of Finding New Waters, featuring John Craichy, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, and change management. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "Addiction isn't just an isolated experience; it's a tangled web of emotions, thoughts, and behaviors that touches everyone involved. To truly heal, we must unravel the threads and face our challenges with compassion, understanding, and a willingness to change." John Craichy Podcast Transcript John Craichy: [00:00:00] Oh, nature of addiction I is that you can't say no. Exactly. You don't want to stop if like, if you're truly addicted. Not from any pejorative sense, but just like that's what addiction means, right? Is that, is that, is that you don't want to stop. You don't know how to stop you. You can't imagine. What it would be like to live life without that support. John Craichy: Absolutely. Like, like, well, okay, all you gotta do is be willing. And then what, you enter an environment where other people are facing that. I mean, for some people you have to hit the crisis, right? Sure. It and, and when I say crisis, I mean life disruption. It doesn't have to be a complete tragedy, unfortunately. John Craichy: That's the scary part, right? Yeah. You don't get to control how that unfolds. And so I'm for. All the invitation you can, all the setup. Mm-hmm. All the recovery tools, all the um, recovery capital that you can muster in a situation, and [00:01:00] it's gonna be somebody else's. Choice. Graham Doerge: Good morning and welcome to Finding New Waters. My name is Graham Durge and I'm the founder and c e O of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined today by by our executive director, Justin McClendon and therapist John Creche. John is a licensed clinical social worker who works with teens and young adults specializing in trauma, addiction and change management. Graham Doerge: He serves as board president of Journeyman Triangle, a teen mentoring and leadership development organization, and as a member of the advisory board for Ncsu Masters in Social. John does most of his [00:02:00] work with young adults, teens and their families who have suffered with trauma, addiction, dependencies, and various forms of failure to. Graham Doerge: John's approach is highly relational with a solid back background in neuroscience, human development, substance use, and various modalities for trauma recovery, including emdr. In addition, he started young adult intensive outpatient. He's, let me redo that part real quick. In addition, he started a young adult intensive outpatient program for Triangle Springs, worked as an emergency room clinician, an in-home therapist prior to that. Graham Doerge: Our goal in creating finding new orders is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting the loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in a crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour for many families. Graham Doerge: So John, thanks for being with us today. Yeah. Glad to be with you. Of course. And, um, You know, we've, we've obviously had a little bit of time to connect here, uh, before getting on on live. And, [00:03:00] um, you know, one of the things that I love to start out with in, in a lot of these, uh, episodes is I'd love to get just like a little bit of an idea for how did you get into this work? Graham Doerge: How did you get into this field? Um, I find that it's, it's always pretty interesting. There's always a, a good story kind of aligned with that, typically because, Again, this isn't really, um, this isn't work that, you know, you kind of grow up and say, that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. You, you know, there's some sort of episode or situation that kind of brings us to, to the work that we do. Graham Doerge: Um, so tell us a little bit about how you got into the behavioral health field. John Craichy: Oh, wow. Um, I've got three sons. They're all late twenties, early thirties now. And I think the challenges of parenting and, well, frankly, going through divorce, I. Support going through that process. And, and I, um, that support allowed me to really, um, shift the way I show up in the world. John Craichy: And, and like a big target for me was [00:04:00] I really want to be friends with my kids. Mm-hmm. In their twenties, like when they come back, you know, it's like kids, teenagers don't wanna be around y'all often, a lot of times, but when they come back, I. I, I want to done, have done enough that my kids really want to know me. John Craichy: Yeah. And, um, and, um, Dennis, Dennis Parnell, the guy who founded The Healing Place, um, he challenged me to go back and do it professionally when he saw the stuff I was doing with Journeyman and with Mankind project and coaching with friends, he. I sat down with him at the end of, uh, end of a kind of end of the year lunch and catching up, and he said to me, John, I know you, you don't need a degree to do this kind of work. John Craichy: Hmm. But you have to have a degree to do this kind of work, so when are you gonna suck it up and do what you don't want to do so you could do what you're called to do? Yeah. Yep. Like, if there's exact words you said to me, I still remember 'em, and, and he was exactly right. Yeah. [00:05:00] I, I really. Um, a drive, do this kind of work. John Craichy: And I mean, I was working with the Biotech Center and the Small Business and Technology Development Center before that was an entrepreneur. Yeah. I spun a couple technologies out of NC State. Yep. And I liked strategy and business planning and I always thought a business plan was like the Hebrews journey. John Craichy: Right. You know, and so I always kind of thought that way. And then when I got an opportunity to really work with, with people with personal stuff, I just found it. It was more rewarding for me. I mean, like I still like the business thing a lot. It's fun. I'm geeky that way, but like, yeah, there's just something about working with people and their families that that. John Craichy: I was just, I don't know, I guess that touched me so deeply and I Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, uh, obviously it's, it's tough to work in this field from a lot of perspectives because, um, you know, obviously we see a lot of people that don't make it. [00:06:00] Um, we see a lot of people that aren't successful. Graham Doerge: Um, the, the success rates in general, I think are, are pretty abysmal, you know, in, in the behavioral health field. And we're, we're obviously always trying to kind of figure out how we can be better at that. But you know, it, it's, it's so amazing when we get a client that comes in and, and the light has turned back on in their eyes, and, and that's what it's all about at the end of the day. Graham Doerge: You know? Absolutely. Uh, when you see those alumni come back, when you see those clients come back who have taken the suggestions, who have followed the path, gotten out of their own way, uh, surrendered to the process and, and, you know, incredible things happen for them, so, Um, yeah. Incredibly rewarding work that we do, but also in really hard work too. Graham Doerge: Um, now, and, and I know, you know, from kind of looking at, at your bio and all that, that you, you like to work a lot with families and, and kind of young adult patients Yeah. As well. So tell us a little bit about the, the work you do with young adults. Yeah, John Craichy: sure. Yeah. You know what's really big in my mind, just cuz you said about the, the pain and, you know, doing this kind of work mm-hmm. John Craichy: Like [00:07:00] the, the. The reason I, I don't think I'll burn out. You know, it is painful when you lose someone. Yeah. That's really absolutely tough, um, to move through. But in general, I don't see it as my job to fix people's pain. Right. That I think the pain is an invitation to wake up. And like, I, I respect pain deeply. John Craichy: Like, like I don't tell somebody who's in the middle of the pain, oh, that's gonna be a gift to you. You know, it's like the appropriate response to that. Well, wouldn't be appropriate on a podcast. Right, right. But, but like th that's the big thing to me, is like I see my job as trying to partner with a person for them to understand their pain and shift their relationship Yep. John Craichy: To it. Mm-hmm. So that's where the client, but oh gosh, maybe even more so with parents, like with family, it's like when you see your kid suffering, You know, someone said to me that having a, having a kid is like, is like taking your heart and putting it on the [00:08:00] outside of your chest. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, anybody can hurt you and there's nothing you can do about it. John Craichy: Yeah. And, and I see that as the source of so much of the trouble. It's like you, you train a kid up and they start being independent or rebellious and, and at that, You know, you don't have direct control anymore. Mm-hmm. You know, you have to figure out what kind of influence you have, but like mm-hmm. You don't have control. John Craichy: And so they're subject to, well, the world and all the things that happen in their own immaturities and, and so figuring out how to help someone help. Their kids and help themselves is, is I guess, a big part of what attracts me to it. I like doing that part of the work. Graham Doerge: Well, and it's so counterintuitive too, right? Graham Doerge: As a parent, you know, I've got three daughters myself, and as a parent, when you see your kids struggling, you want to circle 'em up, hug 'em, and you know, just never let 'em leave, right? Yeah. Um, and that's, that obviously doesn't work in this situation. Right. And I think that's [00:09:00] a big thing that. On a daily basis or are talking to families about is codependency enabling the situation, you know, finding where that leverage is for these young adult clients specifically. Graham Doerge: Like is it financial? Are, are they providing, you know, a roof over their head? Um, and really, you know, trying to kind of, you know, manipulate in a lot of ways to, uh, help them make the right decision. And, um, you know, can you elaborate a little bit on that, Justin? Yeah, no, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. I think. You know, some things we were talking about before we, before we went live is, you know, I think a lot of times if, especially if you have a young person that is struggling, right? Justin Mclendon: Or whether it's an active addiction or there's other things that are going on, or they're just stuck in that place as you, as you, uh, refer to it as this kind of dependent position, if you will. Uh, I think there's just a lot of underdevelopment and the, there's a lot of inability to make appropriate decisions to, you know, to better change the, their life, right? Justin Mclendon: And I think that's where the parents can come in, in those situations, right? Being able to provide the correct [00:10:00] influence, you know, set the appropriate boundaries to assist them in making the right decisions. And that's a lot of the work that we wind up doing here is trying to help. Families that maybe have never, uh, charted those waters before. Justin Mclendon: To be able to understand why these things are important, help them understand a little bit of what's kind of going on in that family dynamic, and then to coach them in the direction of like, okay, well how can we assist right now to get 'em to make at least the next right decision? And then we can kind of figure things out from there. Right, John Craichy: right. Yeah. I mean Right. You learn that Yeah. In the process, right? Like everybody wakes. And they're already swimming down the river. Yeah. You know, it's not like you get to sit and decide when's the right time and the right place and who you want to go with. It's like when consciousness hits you, consciousness of the problem mm-hmm. John Craichy: Consciousness of of, of the need to do something, you're already like caught up in it already. And so, uh, a lot of that is, you know, people get well when, when, when a kid's born, they're deep. Yeah. It's a, you know, an infant is [00:11:00] never wrong and it's always your responsibility to meet their need. Yeah, right. So it's like, one of the few things that's still sacred in our culture, I think is a mother's love for an infant. John Craichy: It's like, that's it. Yeah. But then like, then they're a toddler and then they are wrong sometimes. And, and either way they're, they whine and you do something about it. So it's still, it's still they're expressing. I'm not. Okay. And you need to do something about it. Mm-hmm. Still dependent, right? Mm-hmm. But so you do something about it and you try to get 'em to quit whining and to use their words. John Craichy: Yep. Right? And they get a little older, and then they're using their words, but they're like, they're like little attorneys, you know? It's like, I'm hungry. Which means you need to make me dinner. Right. But, you know, and, but that's a simple one, but it's like, well, my friends get to do it. You know, like, like there's all kinds of things that, that Well, people learn to act and manipulate, right? John Craichy: Yeah. You, you, you learn your parents' buttons. Right? Exactly. And, and so you're, [00:12:00] the kids are highly practiced at, um, even if they're not even aware of it, right. At what they need to. In order to get somebody to, to do something different. Yeah. It's so instinctual. Um, you know, there's, um, the funny one that, that falls in that same line. John Craichy: Well, the not funny one that falls in that same line is suicide ideation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, most of the time suicide ideation is, it's a cry for hell. But it's, but it's a statement. It's the hot button statement of, I'm not okay. And you need to do something. I mean, you have to take it seriously because, well, it's serious for one. John Craichy: Yeah. But, but for most people, it's a dependent cry for help. It's, it's just, that's the end of the track. That's where I think most people say that at some point. Mm-hmm. And if they're not saying that, they're saying something like, if that happens again, I'm gonna lose my sh you know? Right. It, which is the same thing. John Craichy: It's saying, I [00:13:00] can't tolerate the way things are or how I feel. Right. And I don't know how to proactively do anything about it. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna act out disruptively. Yep. And I'll accept the random result. You know, somebody else will have to do something different mm-hmm. To make it Okay. And then I'll accept whatever happens from that. John Craichy: It's dependence. Yeah. Which to me is the. The core part of that's why, you know, addicts, even older addicts are, you know, people with substance use disorder. Mm-hmm. I, I respect that when I'm talking clinically, you know, I talk about the category, but like, when you're talking about an individual, it really matters. John Craichy: They're not an addict. They're a person that's wrestling with problems. Right. Often trauma, often other things. But, but anyway. When, um, when juice, I'm sorry, I just lost my place. I Good. Pick it up. Justin Mclendon: Can you think about it? Yeah. So, uh, a thought that was coming up cuz we're talking about parents and how parents can potentially, or how the situation arises [00:14:00] and then how parents kind of respond and maybe even help sometimes keep them in that dependent position by protecting them from their pain. Justin Mclendon: So I wonder, you know, you've talked a lot about this kind of bio psychosocial, spiritual model and some other ways that. That you, uh, described that maybe, maybe it would be helpful to kind of just outline that a John Craichy: little bit. Yeah, sure. Well, so, so I think it is helpful. Mm-hmm. Like it helpful for parents to see that they're moving through a process here. John Craichy: Everybody goes from that unconscious place to, to some kind of responsibility, some kind of self-consciousness to, to some more social consciousness and their place in identity among people. And, and then whatever's beyond that, some kind of higher purpose, right? Mm-hmm. But like, you can think of that bio psychosocial, spiritual is a stairstep. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Like, and, and like, you don't, well, bio would be your body and your brain, but the psycho would be like, uh, your mind. [00:15:00] And the social is obvious. You know, your, your, your, your, your family and your peers and mm-hmm extends beyond that. And then spiritual, I think of, I try to define spiritual as something like your existential narrative. John Craichy: Right. Like what you really believe about the way the world works and your role in it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And if, and if you really want to pursue that one further. I like to think of it, at least in my work, I like to think of it as what's your relationship with suffering and what's your relationship with beauty? John Craichy: Hmm. And I think a big part of AA is teaching people, um, how to have a more healthy relationship with suffering. Yeah. Both previous suffering and Absolutely. And the day to. Yeah. That you encounter. That's interesting. So, so, so I think that people are moving through that, but you don't leave the body right. John Craichy: And, and go to the mind. Well, well, I guess another way to say it would be dependence, independence, [00:16:00] interdependence, and transcendence. Mm-hmm. So like dependence would be that somebody else is responsible for meeting my needs. Mm-hmm. Independence would be, okay, I'll meet my own needs and I'll meet some of your needs in order to get my needs met. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Like, uh, an employee, that's what you expect from an employee, right? There's the contract, I'll do my part and I'll get something for it. Mm-hmm. And then if you think about interdependence, that you sort of let go of that contract. It's not tit for tat in your friendships. It's like, well, you can. You can come get something outta my refrigerator and like, you know, bring something at some point too. John Craichy: You know, it's like, like I can freely meet some needs of other people and I can trust that my needs will get met. But it's not like everything's a tit for tat mm-hmm. Thing. And then, um, and then I think in the higher level that's, um, I can sacrifice my. And that's the one where like, you know that if you're, you're a parent. John Craichy: Yeah. Like you, you, you know that you [00:17:00] sacrifice for your kids in ways they don't even see, may not even want Right. May tell you you're wrong for doing it, but you still do it cuz it's the right thing. Like that's a sacrifice. Yeah. That's sacrificing your need. But it's not, it's not co-dependent. That's a conscious choice to make an investment in somebody else. John Craichy: Yep. Mm. Graham Doerge: Yep. But at some point that becomes debil debilitating for, for, you know, the young adult, you know, person who's struggling with these substances or something like that. Right, right. So at some point we need to kind of change that narrative, John Craichy: uh, Justin Mclendon: right. Yeah. And so, and that's, uh, same line of thinking, like, so how, in your opinion, how do you think sometimes the, the parent plays a role in maybe keeping. Justin Mclendon: Uh, a young adult in that dependent position. What do you think about that? Yeah. John Craichy: Um, well, so one of the beautiful and difficult things mm-hmm. Is to help, particularly moms, you know, dad's too, [00:18:00] but like mom is the one who's usually sacrificing her body for the baby, right? Mm-hmm. And there is that, you know, I said before I think that a mother's love for an infant is that thing we think of as sacred mother's milk is actually. John Craichy: You know, an analogy for like mm-hmm. That, yeah. Right. In, in other places. Um, and so moms in particular have to do major shifts from, you're always right, you're never wrong. It's my job to sacrifice for you to, um, what is my role, where are the boundaries? Mm-hmm. And when do I need to let you? And, um, you know, I, I, as I'm saying that, like, of course it's the same for dads too and they're right alongside it. John Craichy: I think that, that women are more, um, I see women more emotionally affected by that choice. Mm-hmm. I think in our society, dads are taught, you know, Tough it [00:19:00] up, you know, no pain, no gain, you know, the sports analogies or the other things like that, that, that just show up as masculine challenge. Mm-hmm. You know, competitive nature. John Craichy: So there's that competition and that nurture, and usually those polarize a little bit between masculine and feminine. Sure. And so, so you get that place where, where you have a teenager, Who's really smart and they could go to a really good school, but they're not doing their homework. Right. Because they don't care because they're lost. John Craichy: Cuz they have girlfriend issues cuz they, whatever. It's like, well if you don't make 'em do it, they're gonna have big consequences. They're gonna miss out. Right. Right. But if you do it for 'em when they get there, they're not gonna be able to do it themselves. Right. That to me, Is a frequent setup. I think that's a modern problem. John Craichy: Yeah, sure. Graham Doerge: That's a modern problem. Well, I think also too, that it, it just, you know, They are relentless [00:20:00] too, in so many cases. Right. And sometimes it's just easier to give in. Right. You know, and that's a hard thing. Right. And it's just easier to appease, pacify, whatever you want to call it. And, uh, and, but obviously that's not our role as parents and, and holding that boundary and holding that line and helping them walk through the fear and helping them. Graham Doerge: You know, just grow and, and, and prosper is, is really our job. Right? And, and that's kind of not happening if we're just appeasing and, and enabling the situation. Mm-hmm. Always. So, but it's hard. It's hard, man. It, it is. And my kids are still young. Um, so we have Well, that's the time to do it too. You haven't really crossed that path yet. Graham Doerge: Right. But, um, you know, I'm in recovery. My wife's in recovery and, um, you know, chances are one of our kids probably will have some sort of issue, right. Hopefully not. But, you know, ch uh, cards are stacked against us, so, Yeah, I mean, just being very, um, being very open with them and having the, these conversations with 'em early on and setting those, those expectations pretty early on is important. Graham Doerge: [00:21:00] You know? John Craichy: Well, I see such a big opportunity in, in, in setting up that progression when they're young, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so probably one of the, one of the many mistakes I did as a parent is treating them like they. Little adults. Mm-hmm. You know, give 'em too much choice. Too much freedom, too much of what their opinion, um, ma matters or matters isn't really the right word for that. John Craichy: But, but like, you can be really tight with young kids mm-hmm. And then loosen up. Yeah. Right. But, but if you've been really loose, getting tighter later on, so you got a teenager who's used to a tremendous amount of freedom and you have parents saying, well, we want to implement boundaries now. It's like, I don't know. John Craichy: Like they're a wildflower, right? Right. They're a wild whatever. Um, what do you do with that? And one of the big things that I like to think about, I think a couple of the big skills, one of them is, um, you really want to think about. [00:22:00] Not lighting a fire under someone, but finding the fire. Mm-hmm. Right. So like feed the fire, invest in the thing where they have some initiative and that can be really hard, you know, if someone's playing video games all day long and they don't care about anything else other than that. John Craichy: Right. Yeah. Okay. That's a problem. So you need to maybe cut off some resources. Yeah. Right. Because there's some, um, but. Yeah, the big one, that's a big one. Find out what they're Graham Doerge: passionate about, right? And, and really just, just drive that home. And I think that, that makes me think a lot about too, you know, I've worked, uh, primarily really with a young adult population over the last kind of 10 years. Graham Doerge: And, um, you know, super passionate about working with, with that demographic, but, You know, what I've always found too is making that connection for these young adults in recovery. Uh, and, and you know, rather than them seeing, okay, my life is over because I can no longer use substances safely again for the rest of my life. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. Potentially. Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:23:00] hopefully. But you know, life is not over because you can't get high. Right? Life is just beginning. Look at all the amazing things you can do. Right? And, uh, and that's so important for us, particularly I think, young adults because it's like, oh, look at all these life, you know, situations that I'm never, I'm not gonna be able to have a glass of champagne at my wedding, right? Graham Doerge: Or this or that, or all these things that are just monumental and catastrophic situations that, that we aren't gonna be able to, uh, celebrate. And, uh, the reality is when those things actually come, They don't matter, you know? Not like, you don't even think twice about it, you know? And, and once you kind of get into the recovery, you understand that, that that was all just kind of a bunch of bullshit. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. You know? Yep. And, um, so, you know, I think that it's, uh, speaking to what you were just kind of speaking to of lighting that fire and the finding that passion with kids, I think it's so John Craichy: important. Yeah. And like, okay, so if you got someone who's already got a problem, then it's a problem. You know, um, you can't just feed the fire cuz their [00:24:00] fire passion is probably about using Right. John Craichy: That's, they do view the world through those lenses. Their friends are viewed through those lenses. Right. Their recreation, their, their whole identity. Their whole identity Absolutely. Yep. Is viewed through those lenses so you wind up, um, so it's hard. So I think that's a cutoff resources. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. John Craichy: I mean, if someone is resistant and in denial. Then the thing that's gonna make them change is a crisis. And you hope it's not a big crisis, but you're not in control of the crisis. You can, you can handle some things. Dennis Parnell used to talk about a controlled fall. Mm-hmm. Right? So like if somebody is in denial and resistant and they're not going along with your thing as well. John Craichy: First off, if you're the one supplying resources, don't invest in anything you don't agree with. Right. If they're resistant and they say, well, we, I can do this on my own, then you kind of set them up or to, to make their attempts. And [00:25:00] if those attempts don't work, you're ready to catch 'em. Yep. And that's, I think what he meant by controlled fall. John Craichy: Yeah. It's like, okay, I can't control you. Right. And there's gonna be a fall. Um, one of the things that I talk about with parents is that they can be really frightening and difficult is that insight doesn't usually change. Like if you're waiting around for them to finally go, I'm tired of this and I want to change, that's probably not the way it's gonna happen. John Craichy: Right. It's probably gonna be something happens that that forces their hand to change. Yep. And I mean usually it, something cuts off their resources. Right? Right. So, so a lot of times older people, they might not change for a. They might change for kids. Yeah. Right. Um, but they're really gonna change if they lose their job. John Craichy: Right. Because then their, their, their, their finances get cut off. Right. And then, you know, in more tragic circumstances, somebody gets a dui. Mm-hmm. Or somebody has gotta go to jail. [00:26:00] Jail stops people, there's, there's jail. That saved a lot of, well, you guys wouldn't know that there's jail that saved lots of people. John Craichy: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Hundred percent. Um, well it's really hard because cuz when someone's addicted they use their weakness as the leverage point. Mm-hmm. That's their power. Like, oh, you have to, I mean, that's that dependence again. Yeah. I'm not Okay. Mm-hmm. And you need to do something about it and Oh my gosh. John Craichy: If that person has struggled with anxiety or depression Yeah. Or eating disorder or, or some other kind. Struggle like that, where you know they're having a harder time than their peers. It's like, well of course you're gonna help them. Of course you want to. And, um, you know, that old thing from recovery, don't, don't do anything for someone that they can do for themselves. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Or if you do, you're gonna disempower right them. Absolutely. It, it's hard because if someone has a dependency that they're not able to let go of, to move through. You gotta treat 'em differently than you would because like [00:27:00] most of parenting is about love and hope and optimism. And here we're gonna give you this chance, this momentum or whatever. John Craichy: Yeah. But if, but if someone is, um, if someone is in that dependent place, they're going to eat up all the resources, all the hope that you put at them is supply. It's a stash. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: You know? And I feel like we see that a lot too. Like you were talking. Limiting or cutting off those resources as a method of kind of helping that person, you know, grow or make the right decision. Justin Mclendon: And I think, you know, going back to that, like we see that a lot, right? I mean, whether it's a young adult, I mean, sometimes it's, it's an adult, right? And it's a, it's a, you know, a, a intimate relationship that we're dealing with and the spouse is trying to get the other spouse to make the right decision to enter treatment. Justin Mclendon: All kinds of different shapes and sizes, right? But we see a lot of that, uh, The person is considering treatment, or maybe they've even come in to us to detox and now we're talking about that next level of care. And you see a [00:28:00] lot of times, uh, where we're train, we're saying, Hey, given this current situation with this, we're saying you need to do X, Y, and Z. Justin Mclendon: And then the spouse or the parent, or whoever it is, Yes, I agree. I agree. They need to do this, they need to make these changes. They need to go into this level of treatment, but I'm not going to push them. It needs to be their decision. Right. Graham Doerge: And I think that's, that's kind of an old adage, right? When it comes to recovery, is like, you gotta, they've gotta be willing, they gotta do it themselves, which, you know, I, I definitely, we, we see it all the time where people have a, a psychic shift while they're in treatment. Graham Doerge: Absolutely. And I even. You know, I'm a case of that where I went in and, you know, was intervened on by family and was kind of motivated by family to do it. I was willing to do it, but still, I, I didn't, I was, didn't have my whole heart in it. Yeah. Until probably about two or three weeks into treatment. Graham Doerge: Right. Something changed where I said, wow, all I've done is run my life into the ground. Maybe I should listen to some other people who actually [00:29:00] know what the hell they're talking about. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. And I got outta my own. I surrendered and I just put my hands up and said, I'll do whatever you guys tell me to do. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Right. And that's what makes the difference, you know? John Craichy: So, so that's, that's interesting what you just said because I, I think what you were saying is that the, the light went on for you or things shifted for you. Wow. You were in treatment a hundred percent. So like, yeah, like, I don't know. You get moments of willingness, right? John Craichy: From people Yes. Where they're soft. Right. And I say to anybody, you listen, don't if, if somebody says they're willing to go, Be prepared for them to say that. And when they say, go, go. Don't, don't, don't, don't. You don't need a bath. Yes. You don't need to change your clothes. You don't need a toothbrush. You don't need to see girl, girlfriend. John Craichy: You need to go. You definitely don't need to see the girlfriend first. Right. Because any one of those things gives an opportunity for someone to settle back out. Absolutely. Because it takes willingness, but like, I mean, the whole nature of addiction, I is that you can't say [00:30:00] no. Exactly. You don't want to stop if, like, if you're truly addicted. John Craichy: Not from any pejorative sense, but just like that's what addiction means, right? Is that, is that, is that you don't want to stop. You don't know how to stop you. You can't imagine what it would be like to live life without that support. Absolut Absolutely. Like, well, okay. All you gotta do is be willing and then what you enter an environment where other people are facing that. John Craichy: I mean, for some people you have to hit the crisis, right? Sure. It it, and, and when I say crisis, I mean life disruption. Mm-hmm. It doesn't have to be a complete tragedy. Unfortunately, that's the scary part, right? Yeah. You don't get to control how that unfolds. And so I'm for doing all the invitation you can, all the setup. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. All the recovery tools, all the, um, recovery capital that you can muster in a situation and. It's gonna be somebody else's choice. Yeah. And that's the painful part, [00:31:00] right. Especially when it's your kid. Mm-hmm. Right. Because the, if they hurt themselves, they're gonna hurt you. Mm-hmm. You're gonna hurt in ways that, you know, you can't. John Craichy: Yeah. You know, that you, well, whatever. I don't want to use hyperbole on that, but like, you know, most parents have that, uh, thing that comes up when you think about your kid hurting. And yet, if they don't suffer, if they don't. I mean, if you don't have the pain, you don't wake up. Yeah. That's just, I think that's the nature of consciousness Graham Doerge: without pain, right? Graham Doerge: Yeah. Um, it's a great motivator, you know, and I think that it is, um, Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, it's interesting too when you think back and, and I think back on my kind of story and journey and all of that and, um, yes, a lot of pain, a lot of, uh, very difficult times, you know, in my mid twenties, but I wouldn't change a thing, you know, and, and that, that brought me to where I am now, right? Graham Doerge: And that experience has made everything of me and it's given me a [00:32:00] career and, and all of those things where I didn't have a whole lot of direction prior to that. So, Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's really important to kind of look at, look at that motivator and you know, and it's like shifting your perspective on like, what, what is, you know, what is that pain? Graham Doerge: What is that fear? It's not really that big, that bad of a thing if it's creating a lot of beauty in the long run. Right? Absolutely. Um, so I'm so afraid of uncomfortability. Yeah. You know. Justin Mclendon: Well, and I think that goes back to what we were talking about begin with, and, uh, this is, you know, my expression of that, but you know, Parents, and I'm guilty of the same thing with my own two boys, right? Justin Mclendon: But you have this tendency to want to protect them from the pain. And then, you know, we're doing that because we love 'em and we want to keep 'em safe and all that stuff. But at the same time, to your point, like we're, we're also, uh, you know, uh, robbing them of opportunities for growth, I think. You know what I mean? Justin Mclendon: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's the same thing when we're talking about, you know, these decisions, right? You know, [00:33:00] recovery versus continuing with, with, uh, substance use or whatever the behavior is, is it's the same thing without setting those boundaries, without, you know, cutting off or, or limiting the resources, right? Justin Mclendon: We're really doing the same thing. We're just kind of, You know, uh, trying to protect them from the pain, so to speak. Right? John Craichy: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so sitting here talking about it as an abstract thing Yeah. It's like philosophical, right? The pain thing, right? Yeah. But like, everybody's pain is like a hundred percent your pain, your, your triggers, your things. John Craichy: They don't scare me, right? Like, I could sit here all day and talk about whatever deep things you've been through, right? And I'm good with that. Mm-hmm. But, Scare me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And it's the nature of it. And that's what especially is with parents. It's like, well, how do you move through that? And I think that like a first stage is, is people have to feel comfortable at first, right? John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Because they, they just do, if, if you're not comfortable, then somebody's not paying [00:34:00] attention, right? You, you're like, that's your first sign. But like the more you sit with it, comfort's not the answer. In fact, that's actually might. Addiction might be defined as addiction to comfort. Mm-hmm. Sure. John Craichy: Right. Like, and so the, one of the first stages is separating comfort and safety. Mm-hmm. Because like you, you just assume if you're uncomfortable, it's unsafe, but that's not true. Right. In fact, it's a, it is an uncomfortable decision to choose recovery to go into, to surrender your control. Mm-hmm. Very uncomfortable. John Craichy: Absolutely. But, Like this place is safe, right? Mm-hmm. Right. It may be one of the most safe things for someone who has a, a substance dependency to be mm-hmm. Uncomfortable. Sure. Safe. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And then I think, I think over time, like particularly like with the steps, I think people learn that safety, is it judgment, right? John Craichy: Comfort's kind of a feeling, and safety is a judgment, and you can be. [00:35:00] Wherever you are. Right? Yeah. And there's plenty of people who are really safe in dangerous circumstances. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Absolutely. I love the way you put it. Yeah. And I think that's why it's, you know, there's this huge spiritual component, right? Graham Doerge: Yeah. And, um, you know, because for me, in that situation, like that was not me making that decision, right? Like I, I was. Touched by, you know, we'll call it the hand of God or whatever it was that, like, that I truly believe there was something that helped me kind of have that shift in perspective, right? Graham Doerge: Because it came outta nowhere. It was not me. So I think that that's like an important thing to, to look at too, is the, the spiritual part of this whole process and this and this and this journey. And. You know, really, you know, again, that's, that's like, you know, the tools that we learn in this process, and I even think about our, our, our young children and, and things like that too, is that we need to be teaching them a lot of these tools that we now have as a result of being in recovery, like meditation, journaling. Graham Doerge: Mm-hmm. [00:36:00] Yoga, breath work, you know, a lot of the somatic work that we do, you know, that's all. That kids should be doing in the schools, right? Yeah. And like, we need to be, we need to be teaching them these life skills early on. Um, and unfortunately it's just not, it's not talked about, it's not championed at all. John Craichy: All right. You know, so, so I get kinda excited to think about that because I have another angle on that. Okay. Um, coping skills are gonna be a part of any good program, right? Mm-hmm. But one of the things I saw, like at Triangle Springs, mm. I found that until you recognize somewhat what someone's pain is, what they're really struggling with, they usually don't want a coping skill. John Craichy: Mm. Because it's like, oh, you can teach me to breathe. Is that gonna change my whatever? It's like, no. Like a lot of times symptoms are the cry for help. Mm-hmm. Suicide ideation is chief among them. And that's, that's such a touchy subject. You have to take it seriously as if it's an [00:37:00] intent when you hear it and you gotta explore that. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. But when you do that, that's what I saw in the emergency room all the time. It's that cry for help. Yeah. Well, It's not a good measure if somebody does less suicide ideation. Right, right. The good measure is that there's some shift in their life where they don't need that. It could be that. Mm-hmm. John Craichy: But, but if you're just telling someone, it's basically someone's yelling for help and you're telling 'em to quiet down. Mm-hmm. Well, here, if you just breathe them more little, little, you won't, you, you won't, you won't be so loud. Right. And they. What's really going on is they're acting out cuz they can't. John Craichy: Well the earlier thing I said, if that happens again, I'm gonna lose my crap. Mm-hmm. What they're doing is they're losing their crap to show you that it's not working. They need something different. Right. And okay. Sometimes an incremental help helps someone get back in line and gain some confidence. And I think that's a difference between somebody who, who has a real use disorder, somebody who's an addict, and I say that [00:38:00] affectionately. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. Not in a pejorative, but like people who have serious dependency problems. They're, well, I think of myself as a personality. I, I don't know why I didn't wind up being an alcoholic because, I'm an intense person. I don't think the rules apply to me. If a little is good, more is better. Like, oh my God, doesn't that sound, does that sound familiar to you guys? John Craichy: If you have any, any, any clients that sound like that? Yeah. Um, and like that gets you in trouble. Right? Right. That kind of, and if I was genetically predisposed, I'd probably be an alcoholic cuz I gave it a good run when I was, you know, a young man. Mm-hmm. And you know, I say that kind of tongue in cheek, but it's like I. John Craichy: That people who encounter that, who have that problem need to be respected as being different. Mm-hmm. There's something different going on for them that they need help managing. Right. And [00:39:00] and it's not like you can just use love and logic to help someone who's stuck in addiction. Yeah. They need some, they need. John Craichy: Something that helps change the framework that they're dealing with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. Graham Doerge: 100%. Yeah. No, and I, and I, I definitely, I see what you're saying a hundred percent from that perspective, but I also think that, For me in particular, it was, I was able to have that spiritual experience as a result of doing some of those things. Graham Doerge: Right. Yeah. And that was, that was really interesting because, you know, for me it was, I was losing my mind and I literally thought I was losing my mind. I was. Angry. I was frustrated. And, and listen, my coping skills had been taken away, so I hadn't done Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, and everybody said, why don't you try journaling? Graham Doerge: Why don't you try meditation? Why don't you, and then, and it took me about two weeks until I was so crazy that I said, okay, this is the only thing that I know how to do. And I said, I'll do it. And I started journaling and I would go every night to this little chapel and I would just [00:40:00] write, just, you know, just like, um, you know, um, you know, whatever came to my mind and. Graham Doerge: We can edit that piece. So I would just write, and I would go to this jour, this little chapel, and I would just write, write, write. And I realized after going back, after about a week and reading it, that I was writing my higher power, right? And that was the first time that I said, oh wait, it can be that easy. Graham Doerge: Like I can just, it's a relationship like I would have with any other person. You know? I talk to them in that way and. This is the closest relationship that I'll ever have. And that like, made that connection happen for me and I, and from there it kind of went, it went from there, right. But I was able to have that kind of spiritual note in that moment, you know? Graham Doerge: Yeah. John Craichy: That's cool. Which is cool. So, so I'm a little bombastic sometimes in the way that I talk cuz I'm intense. No, I love it. Listen, um, per Graham Doerge: personalities are great on podcasts. John Craichy: Um, but, but what you said. Clear to me. I should make it clear. Yeah. [00:41:00] That. I didn't mean that those coping skills and those activities aren't wrong. John Craichy: Like the steps are individual steps. Like, oh my God, there's life in that. Um, um, one of my mentors talked about that as good orderly direction. Mm-hmm. And, and so I'm a big believer in that. I'm just saying early on. Yeah. In the, and that was kind of the way we framed some of the earlier discussion is like, like how do you move someone from Yeah. John Craichy: From being in trouble to. Yeah. Re, re re recovery and, and I think a lot of times people would like to give someone incremental help. Mm-hmm. And then someone in real trouble, someone who's addicted, um, will often reject incremental help. As, as like, you don't get it. You don't see me. Right. Do you have any idea what I'm dealing with? John Craichy: And then the loving parents like, well, if you just do this, things will be a little better. And they're going, No, I don't want things to be a little better. I [00:42:00] don't, that's a little better. Still sucks. Yeah. Right. For me. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's, you tell the pain gets great enough. Yeah, yeah. Like in my situation, we don't make the change. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Right. Uh, it's, it's really, it's. Super complex. It's, uh, can be frustrating. Yeah, absolutely. I know for, for you Justin, as a clinician where Yeah, you know, we see a, a lot, you know, where we're doing so much work to get these folks to, you know, go to residential treatment because we know that's gonna be the best next step for this client and the family just isn't willing to hold the line. Graham Doerge: As Justin was saying earlier, they really wanted to be their decision and ultimately, They don't move forward with our suggestion. They go to outpatient and blow the, the household up, blow the family situation up. And we get a call three to four weeks later saying either we need to come back in because he is been using ever since he left, or, um, and you guys were right, or, you know, we need to kind of, you guys need to help us get him into the, to the residential program we were talking about. Graham Doerge: So it's, Justin Mclendon: it's frustrating. It really is. And uh, you know, and I think, you know, just to throw this nugget in there, and I'm sure you can [00:43:00] really, we can all relate to this, right? But. You know, that's where we have to be mindful of our, of our role in this situation sometimes, and then it, it can, it can be very frustrating, right? Justin Mclendon: I mean, you're working with them, you're given a hundred percent of your energy, you're working with the family, trying to get them to kind of see things for what it is so that we can get things moved in the right direction, in the right direction. Uh, but sometimes we just don't win those battles, right? Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes we just gotta. If there was any change affected whatsoever, we just have to take that for what it is and then be hopeful that, you know, either we're proven dramatically wrong or that we'll be there waiting to help when the, when the situation arises again, you know? Yeah. To me John Craichy: that's key. John Craichy: Yeah. Right. I want the kind of relationship with someone where their boundaries are respected. Yep. And that I really do see them mm-hmm. As a person, regardless of their use, so that when they decide to do something, I'm a person that they would trust to come back to. Mm-hmm. And so I, I'm all about [00:44:00] preserving people's choice, cuz I think Yeah, that's, I mean, what else do you have? John Craichy: Right? What else? Yeah, absolutely. And you can't make. Go into, you can't recover. Hey, sometimes I wish we could. Mm-hmm. You know, that's like, uh, yeah. The power. No, no. Good man should have no good man. No good man would want and no bad man should have. That's right. Yeah. That's right. The, when I was in the emergency room, I would see people in passing. John Craichy: Right. So they're in crisis often. Yeah. Right. And that's an opportunity for change. But I don't have much rapport cuz they're just passing through. I'm doing an assessment and most likely sending 'em on somewhere. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But I would usually. If, if, if they were at a low point where they were really trying to decide they're soft Yeah. John Craichy: In that time. And it's a time to reach someone. Right. That's the controlled fault. Right. They've reached some moment mm-hmm. Of crisis and there's an opportunity. And I would usually say something like, um, there's a proverb that says if you come whistling and singing [00:45:00] loud blessings too early in the morning, it'll be counted as a curse. John Craichy: Hmm. And that's a peculiar thing, right? Right. So what does that mean to me? That means if I look at you person in the emergency room and I say, oh, I see you're in crisis. I see all that pain, but that's gonna be a gift to you. Mm-hmm. Then I'm whistling and singing loud blessings too early. Right. And your response is gonna be something like, you know, F you, you don't see me, you don't know me, you don't get me. John Craichy: Right? Yep. But, but I would usually say that and ask, can I have your permission to like risk whistling and singing loud blessings too. Because I think a lot of times people who really hurt are, are also people who have a lot of insight on hurting. Mm-hmm. They have friends that hurt. They've thought about their pain, they've thought about their parents' pain. John Craichy: They've, they've really spent a lot of time swimming in that kind of environment. Yeah. And. The blessing on the other side of [00:46:00] that is that a lot of times you wind up being a huge gift to other people in pain mm-hmm. When you find recovery. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people will seek recovery if they have some vision of some kind of life worth living. John Craichy: Yeah. And a lot of times that the, that, that vision is. Is the idea that you could really help somebody else. Mm-hmm. You, you, you could save someone from going through the crap that you had to go through. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I mean, honestly, that's why I'm. Why I'm a therapist today. Yeah, Graham Doerge: a hundred percent. Graham Doerge: And I, yeah, man, a hundred percent relate to that. What a beautiful way to make a career, helping others. Um, and, and again, turn, seeing that light turned back on in their eyes, there's really nothing better than that. Yeah. That's it. That's why we do it. Right? That's why we do it. So, so let's, let's do this. So John, uh, thanks again for being here today. Graham Doerge: How can professionals, families, and individuals best connect with you? John Craichy: Um, John Croci, Jay Croci gmail. It's uh, [00:47:00] c r a i c h y. Great. Jay Croci at gmail is a good, good, good way to reach me. Perfect. You guys, so can send em to me. Absolutely. We'll, Graham Doerge: absolutely. We'll have your information listed on, uh, on the podcast, uh, site and, and all that, so we can make sure that people, uh, certainly find you if they, if they need John Craichy: services. John Craichy: Yeah, I see people in person, um, downtown Raleigh, in North end of downtown Raleigh. Justin Mclendon: So quick, quick question for you related to that. Uh, so I know you work with young adults. Mm-hmm. You mentioned you like working with parents. Would you take on. Like a couple or, or a parent as a client. John Craichy: Oh yeah. Okay, perfect. John Craichy: So, so I think, you know, when somebody asks what you do and what your specialty mm-hmm. Is, it's addiction and trauma and failure to launch with young people. Okay. But through that work, Uh, chaotic family situations. Mm-hmm. Um, because I worked in an emergency room, I worked with physicians in recovery. Okay. John Craichy: So I do a lot of adult work, executive women. Oddly, you know, my mom was the mayor of the little town. I'm from [00:48:00] Desiree was saying that I, I, I really like helping. Strong people wrestle with strong challenges, so that's awesome. I don't do the average couple's work like mm-hmm. Like, you know, date nights and communication styles. John Craichy: Those things are important. That's not my specialty. Sure. But if someone is having, you know, chaotic kindness of trouble in their marriage and they need some healing, some trauma kinds of things, whether it's addiction or trauma. Mm-hmm. I like doing that work and so I wind up doing, Parent work and couples work, family work, that kind of thing. John Craichy: Fantastic. It's a addiction is a family disease. Amen. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Do you have room on your caseload? John Craichy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, um, I try to help people and move 'em along. Sure. Like, I don't, I don't just hang on. Uh, I'm outta network and that's a barrier for some people. Sure. And, um, so in some situations I'll, you know, do something about that if it's a situation where I think I've got something unique to offer. John Craichy: Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, I stay [00:49:00] fairly busy. You know, periodically have, have space. Yep. Very good. So send 'em my way. Graham Doerge: We will absolutely look forward to it. Well, thanks so much for being here today. Uh, thank you Justin for joining me and yeah, happy to be here. We will see you all next week. Show Notes Dive into the depths of addiction, recovery, and family support in this insightful episode of Finding New Waters, featuring John Craichy, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, addiction, and change management. Hosted by Graham Doerge, founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, and joined by executive director Justin McClendon, this conversation explores the complex nature of addiction and the challenges faced by families supporting loved ones on their recovery journey. John shares his personal experience with parenting and how it led him to his current profession, along with his passion for working with teens, young adults, and their families to overcome trauma, addiction, and dependencies. Discover the importance of understanding and respecting pain, as well as the crucial role of parents in setting boundaries and providing the correct influence for their children. In this episode, you'll learn about John's work with Journeyman Triangle, a teen mentoring and leadership development organization, his background in neuroscience, human development, and various modalities for trauma recovery, including EMDR. You'll also hear about the challenges and rewards of working in the behavioral health field and the impact of helping people transform their lives. Don't miss this informative and transformative conversation – perfect for anyone looking to better understand addiction, recovery, and the power of family support. John Craichy email: jaycraichy@gmail.com

In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. < Back to Episodes Navigating the Waters of High-Functioning Addiction with Trey Laird 31:12 min | Trey Laird | Finding New Waters Join us on "Finding New Waters" as we feature Trey Laird, former Wall Street trader turned founder of The Lighthouse Recovery Services. Discover Trey's journey from finance to founding a unique recovery sanctuary, blending professional demands with personal healing. A story of transformation and hope. Subscribe Imagine what you can accomplish if you're sober. You could light the world on fire" -Trey Laird Transcript Trey Laird: [00:00:00] I needed to see successful guys in meetings. I needed to know that like, you know, you know, going into, into, into AA was not, did not mean that I was going to give up my career and, you know, I'm never going to have fun anymore. And so guys who come to the lighthouse and look around is they get to know each other and realize that, you know, there's a lot of pretty successful men and women coming through treatment here that have had this. You know, an alcohol use disorder, by the way, they've also been running fortune 500 companies in the meantime. So right, you know, it's, it's healthy for them to see that you know, recovery doesn't necessarily mean that you know, I'm, I'm lowering my goals or my expectations or, you know, or, or changing sort of where I want to get to But me and both used to be my family, my, my my, my profession and my passions. Right.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good morning. My name is Graham Durgie and I'm the founder and CEO of new orders recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast. Finding new waters. Our goal in creating, finding new waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one, struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest family, darkest hour for many families. I'm joined today by our executive director, Justin McClendon, and Trey Laird, who's the founder of Lighthouse Recovery in New Canaan, Connecticut. Trey Laird is CEO and founder of the Lighthouse Sober Living and Lighthouse Recovery Coaching 365 program. Before founding Lighthouse, Mr. Laird was a Wall Street equities trader for 22 years, starting his career with Bankers Trust [00:02:00] and exiting with Lazard. Mr. Laird attended the Trinity School in Manhattan and Dartmouth College. Mr. Laird has five children and lives in New Canaan, Connecticut with his wife. He's an avid golfer, marathoner, regularly travels to share his expertise on recovery and treatment, best practices, and makes regular media appearances to speak on addiction issues. Mr. Laird feels that his choice to recover out loud has had an extraordinary impact on his life and recovery. Trey, thank you for joining us today. Always a pleasure to, to get to connect with you and hear a little bit about what you're doing. Thank you for being here. Trey Laird: Graham, thanks for having me, man. Good to catch up. Graham Doerge: Yeah, absolutely. So, I always like to start off with a little bit, obviously, introductory information about you. Now, can you tell us just a little bit about, you know, your story, how you got into this field? I just find it always really interesting to see how people got into this work because it's not very common, right? Trey Laird: Yeah, it was definitely not on my [00:03:00] radar or roadmap. When I was growing up you know, I was in the middle of a, what ended up being a 22 year career on wall street. 15 years in, I developed a substance use disorder. And I ended up going to treatment in 2008. And while I was in treatment Okay. My wife invited me not to move home afterwards, there had been a lot of damage done in marriage, and she needed more time, and we had two kids at home, and so I went to my counselor at Silver Hill where I was in treatment, and I said, you know, I need to figure out where I'm going to live next, and she suggested that I go to a sober house, I'd never heard of a sober house, I didn't know what she was talking about. But she described it as a you know, a next step after treatment where guys live together, but they went back to work and live their lives, but they had the community and accountability of, of the other guys in the house. And I said, that sounds like a pretty good idea. Give me the phone number. I'll go. And she said, well, Trey, you should probably go to Florida or California. And I was in New Canaan, Connecticut, and I said, why would I go to Florida or California? And she said, [00:04:00] well, frankly, because there's nothing around here for you. And It didn't make sense to me to go to Florida or California, so I didn't. I rented a house right in New Canaan. I went back to work. You know, I went to a lot of 12 step meetings and navigated early recovery with the help of those guys that I met there. And so, you know, six, seven years later there still was no significant, no, no good options for, you know, continuing care and sober living in the Northeast. And so, that's when we. Got together and decided to open the lighthouse in Darien originally and now in New Canaan. So I, even then I thought it would be like a side project for me. I was not going to give up my Wall Street career, but it quickly became obvious that there was a lot to do and this was not a side project. And so, and so I left and that was we're coming up on eight years in January that we've been That's great. Wow. Yeah. So you never know where you're going and and here we Graham Doerge: are. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. And obviously it's it's such an important [00:05:00] piece to the process, to the continuum of care, you know, that kind of step down component transitioning back into life after treatment or, or whatever you've done prior to that. And in my mind, I feel like it's probably the most pivotal Decision that you make in that process, right? You know, because that's where the rubber hits, hits the road. That's where things get tough. That's where life starts happening. And, and do you have those tools? Are you going to implement those tools? So, you know, it's definitely such a needed resource, certainly up in your area. So happy that you did that. But specifically to like, you guys cater to kind of a, a niche demographic and, and a, an executive demographic. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, Trey Laird: Graham. So, I mean, the lighthouse, I, I, I, you know, I, I started it because it was the program that didn't exist when I needed it. I was 38 years old again, you know, midway through a, you know, a Wall Street career and with a wife and kids and everything that comes with that. So our clientele, the average [00:06:00] age is going to be, you know, mid forties. Up to 50. You know, the average client is is working employed, usually in a very high senior level position. You know, most of our clients are married and trying to stay married there. They have kids. They have families. They have a lot going on. They have a lot to lose. And they're, they're, you know, they're invested in, in what they're doing in their lives. And frankly, a lot of the parts of their lives are working and substances have worked in their life and specifically in their professional career for a long time. So what they get it with us, to your point is like, you know, after treatment. Going back into your life with these new tools that you've obtained in treatment and utilizing them is it's difficult and you gotta, you know, you have to practice and you gotta you gotta get reps and you have to you know, learn what it's like to go to that board meeting and sit there and not be drinking. And so that's what our clients get to do on a regular basis. I mean, we'll have a client come to us and you know, say, you know, Trey, I have to go [00:07:00] to work in the city on Monday and we say, great, how can we support you doing that? Whereas a lot of the, a lot of others, you know, extended care programs, sober livings that I'm familiar with, they, they say, Hey, you know, for the first month, you're not going to really do anything. And then we'll talk about it in the second month and. You know, that's not us. We want to support client. We want to be able to support clients and wherever they're at. And a lot of times our clients are you know, going back into life pretty, pretty quickly. Yeah, I think that's my design. So, so Graham Doerge: yeah. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, we, you know, we had a client here a couple of months ago that was, you know, definitely in that, that fit that category. And it's just, you know, with gentlemen like that, it's just, they can't take. Two, three, four months off, you know, that's just not the reality. It's not a realistic thing. So yeah, having that, that kind of piece that you have there to meet them where they're at, I think is, is such an important part of the puzzle. Justin Mclendon: Trey, can you tell us a little bit about, you know, it sounds like. Like you're saying, you're, you're supporting them, trying to [00:08:00] help them learn how to navigate, you know, career and life and things like that in the early stages of recovery. Can you tell us a little bit more about what the programming, what the structure of Lighthouse Trey Laird: looks like? Our program is called Recovery 365. And so everybody that's living in the homes is in that program. But important to note that we also offer that program to clients that aren't living in the home as well. And it's a coaching programs. Every client has their own recovery coach. We have a team of about 10 coaches. We pair each client up with the best coach. When they arrive, they meet with that coach twice a week. They, they decide the client decide sort of where and when those meetings are going to happen again, because they have busy lives. So they might want to meet early in the morning before work. They might want to, you know, go at for a walk or hike on the weekend, they might want to hit golf balls, you know, it's sort of, we want to make it less therapy and more interactive with the client and fit into their life. So. Two meetings a week, and then the coach proactively [00:09:00] checks in with the client every day. I think that's an important piece, and our clients agree, because, you know, a lot of them go to 12 step. A lot of them have sponsors, but the sponsors say, well, you can call me. But a lot of new people in early recovery, you know, go to meetings, don't. Feel like calling their sponsor until they get it. They don't get into that rhythm and the sponsor won't reach out to them. So we have our coaches reach out to the clients every day. And then in addition to that, so we got groups every day at our men's and our women's house. So, use those groups are usually late afternoon, early evening, even at dinner. To accommodate again, the people that are working all day. And then we do alcohol monitoring and drug testing in the homes. We, we, we do have an absence policy. Having said that, if you're in our recovery 365 program and not living in the lighthouse, you're not required to be abstinent. And we do have clients here and there that say that they would like to, you know, moderate, they would like to curtail. They would like to, they're not [00:10:00] interested in a hundred percent abstinence at the time. And our coaches meet them where they're at too. Are you, Graham Doerge: are you seeing a lot of people? Cause obviously, you know, this like sober curious movement has really taken shape, right? So are you seeing folks in that category that are utilizing recovery 360? Trey Laird: Yes. I would say. Definitely not the majority. It's more kind of like Yeah. You know, 10, 10, 15%. Yeah. And so far what we've seen is that after a period of exploration the client has generally come around to the idea that their life is better without any alcohol. And that, you know, having that glass of wine on Saturday night with their wife as their only drink of the week you know, isn't, isn't. Not that it's not attainable, but what, why would I want to have a glass of wine with my wife? And, and do I really just want to have seven glasses of wine? So, yeah, we've had some clients that start down that road, but we've also [00:11:00] had clients that start down that road and then say, Hey, you know what? Why do I need one? So I think more, more. What we've seen is that, you know, say somebody comes in with an opiate use disorder and they say, well, you know, I'm still, I still want to reserve the right to, you know, smoke THC or drink and and we've seen that happen a couple of times where you know, again, they say they're, they say it's successful. We need, we need a larger length of study to understand if it really is successful, right? Yeah, Graham Doerge: 100%. And you guys are also doing interventions and, you know, doing some work on the front end as well. You've got some folks on your team. Are you seeing, and one of the kind of, you know, I'd love to hear your opinion on this, right? Because I think with interventions in particular, you know, people have this kind of preconceived notion that you've got a hip bottom, right? And you know, what's your opinion on that, you know, for families who are. You know, potentially wanting to intervene. We're now coming up on the holidays, which is always a.[00:12:00] A tough time of year families getting together. You see your loved one for the first time. Maybe they're not doing as well as you thought they were. There's some sort of an incident. So yeah. What do we say to those families who are, you know, thinking in that direction, but just not quite sure if, if the timing's right. Trey Laird: Yeah. So. I would say we do interventions. We like to call them structured family conversations as opposed to interventions. It's not a, it's not a main part of our business, but we also, we also want to support the family when they call. I would say that, you know, for us, we started a whole new line of business just in the last six months of family recovery coaching. And what that looks like is family member calls and says, you know, my husband needs help, or my son needs help, or my, or my wife needs help. And if that person you know, the identified patient is not interested in getting help, well, we can work with the family and coach them, which may ultimately turn into An intervention or a [00:13:00] family conversation, you know, a structured conversation with that, with that loved one, but it might not either. And so we've had clients that have successfully you know, come into our family coaching program and gotten some relief for themselves. And even if their loved one is still drinking we've also had situations where that you know, going down that path with the family has led. To the family themselves, speaking with their loved one and and, and affecting change. And so I think we all agree that you don't have to hit a bottom. Uh mm-Hmm. . I think that the reason that families and people in general are so hesitant to reach out for help is because their view of what is out there, what's provided for help is not appealing. Right? I don't want to go away from. 30 days. I don't want to give up my phone. I don't wanna leave my house. I, and so, you know, the question then becomes, well, how do we give them what they want? Literally meet them where they're at. And so we also have [00:14:00] times when you know, we'll, we'll do a conversation with a, with a family. And instead of like having the car outside bags packed on the way to rehab, they may be going for, you know, a a psychiatric evaluation and then we're going to make a decision after that or go to a place like, like, like yours where, you know, you can get five to seven days of just some, you know, rest and care and it's, it's a good timeframe to be able to figure out next steps and next steps may not be a. 60 day treatment center. It might be back at home with a strong clinical team in your house, right? Yeah. So it's all about giving them, giving people options and ideas as opposed to cookie cuttering it and saying, this is what you have to do. Period. End of story. Right. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's been, that's been this cycle for so long. Right. This cookie cutter treatment, you know, fits, fits everybody. Right. And and that's just not the case. Every client that comes in has different complexities, has, you know, different acuity and, and is, you know, we need to meet them [00:15:00] differently, you know, with every client. Right. So, yeah, I think that we're starting to see that that traditional kind of re treatment model is just, right. Okay. Not really working anymore. So, Trey Laird: and Justin Mclendon: I would say, I think that's true, right? And I think that there's certain people that still do need that, right? You really do need that, you know, 30, 45, 60 day kind of primary treatment to jumpstart things and, and But it's true and I think it's refreshing that we are seeing a big change in the, in the field that that's not always the case with everybody and that we really do need to take the time to understand what that person's specific needs are and what the family system needs and to really try and get creative and come up with something that's going to be most helpful for everybody. Right. Trey Laird: Yeah. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yes. So, now tell me a little bit about like the, some of the recovery stuff that you guys, now you guys are all 12 step based, correct? You're, you're, you know, obviously a huge advocate of 12 step recovery. And, and, you know, go to meetings in your own life. I know. So how does some of that [00:16:00] programming look with your guys and getting them integrated with that? Trey Laird: Yeah, no, let me, so let me. Slight correction. I'm not sure I would say that we're 12 step based. I would say that I'm a 12 step guy. And you know, I got, I got sober and treatment and then AA and still, you know, go to meetings, have a sponsor, have sponsees actively involved in, in 12 step. Having said that we don't have any requirements for our clients to go to meetings. We believe in attraction, not promotion. I would say that our staff is primarily drawn from the 12 step community. And so, you know, if you're living at 1 of our houses or working with 1 of our coaches, you're likely going to hear about their 12 step experience. But again, we're not forcing anybody to go to meetings and what I tell people that call and ask questions about the lighthouses and they say, do I have to go to meetings? I say, no, you don't have to go to meetings. [00:17:00] Having said that, if you don't go to meetings, you'll be minority and you'll likely have somebody, one of the other clients ask you why you aren't going to meetings. Because, and again, not, not to be you know, mean about it, but just to understand like why somebody wouldn't. So we're very blessed and fortunate here. In Fairfield County, New Canaan, Westport, Greenwich has a really strong 12 step community. You know, there's over a hundred meetings a week, breakfast, you know, morning, lunch, evening, and so there's literally thousands of people doing the deal here in Fairfield County. which is unlike some other, you know, geographies in the country, as I understand it. You know, if you live in Rochester, New York, and we've had a client from there, he'll say, Trey, I have one meet one group that meets three times a week near me. And so, you know, if I, and there's six guys that go, and so that's not a robust recovery community. And so he doesn't use a 12 step recovery at, at his home. He comes back and visits with us regularly [00:18:00] and, and loves it here. But we we are open to any pathway. We've seen guys and women get, you know, you know, their recovery path would include you know, a robust new exercise regime plus church community plus, you know, an outdoor adventure pathway you know. We, we encourage them to check out meetings, but we're not, we're certainly not gonna mandate them there. And, and again, AA is not created equal everywhere. I feel like there's geographies where it's strong and geographies where it's weak. And so, we're blessed to have a really strong community around us, but it doesn't exist everywhere. Graham Doerge: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I think that that's that's obviously like with that clientele, that's where you've got to be right. You've got to meet them where they're at, but, but it's, it goes back to the foundations of AA and 12 step programming is, as you said, attraction rather than promotion. Right. And that's just such a, I think that's such a pivotal part to the success of AA. So implementing that into your program and really yeah. [00:19:00] You know, using those strategies is, is going to be a really, really smart thing for you. Obviously it's worked really well for you. Trey Laird: I would say, you know, like if there's one thing about, you know, our core beliefs at the lighthouse is that we believe that a connection to a recovery community is the. Is the essential part and one of the essential, if not the essential part of someone's recovery. And so we believe in the idea that, you know, a client can connect with other you know, other Lighthouse clients, other Lighthouse alum, other Lighthouse staff and start to see what recovery can look like for that for them because they're looking at what it's what, how it's, you know, how it's worked for people that have gone before them. They're all smart enough to make their own decisions about, you Do I want what Graham has? Do I want what Justin has? Do I want what Trey has? And or maybe a little piece of what Graham does or a little piece of what Justin does. And so, you know, we believe in throwing a lot of different examples of recovery in front of [00:20:00] our clients while they're in residence or with us, and they can choose for themselves what works for them. And it's worked really well, right? Like we have guys that go on ski trips. We have guys that go to, you know, and women that go to church together where they have. They form yoga groups. They do, you know, alumni zoom calls and, and you know, they like to be with each other. I mean, for me, for me, like what, what I loved to do was you know, things like playing golf and, and skiing and surfing. And and, and so how was I going to do those things without a drink or a drug in my hand? And well, the answer for me was that I found other guys that like to do those things without drinking. And so, you know, my, my first time back at Yankee stadium, you know, which had become, you know, I was always a huge Yankee fan. I went to a lot of games as a kid and growing up. And then at some point, you know, Yankee stadium just became a big bar for me and I couldn't get out of there, you know, without being blacked out. And so I was concerned about how I was going to go back to Yankee stadium, or even if I [00:21:00] could go back to Yankee stadium and not drink. And the first few times I went, I went with three other guys, you know, who I met in recovery who didn't drink. And that gave me sober reference that showed me how to do that kind of thing. And and that's what we do with our clients, right? Like, you know, you want to go, you want to go play golf at your club. Great. I understand that might be nervous for you because you always drink with those guys. How about you play with. Some of the other guys that don't drink and and, and build up your sober reference over time of doing those things you love to do. Because by the way, if you don't find things that you love to do without a drink in your hand, you're not likely to continue to have not have a drink in your hand. You're going to, you're going to start Graham Doerge: drinking again. So, yeah, I mean, that's always been like the most. Pertinent thing to me was finding fun stuff to do. Right. And, and I was super fortunate and I've said this before on the podcast that I, I made that connection and treatment that I can sit here and say my life is over, or I can just start doing awesome stuff, you know, and start. Doing things that I've always wanted to [00:22:00] do, but just haven't because I've been drinking myself to death in a basement in Boston, right? So, yeah, I mean, that's, that rings so true to me. I think that's such an important piece to this, this puzzle is just making that connection for these folks showing them how incredible life can be sober and the community aspect, right? I mean, we all need and crave that community and when we're in our disease. You know, we're isolated, right. And, and, you know, I know at the end for me, the last six months were, you know, as I said, just solo in a basement with no heat, so it wasn't glorious at all. And, and now coming into recovery and having this community and this fellowship and you know, the support and camaraderie and, I mean, it was, it was. Definitely alien for a while but it was, it was exactly what I needed. Right. Those guys holding me up when I, on those days that I was down and keeping me accountable. And so, yeah, I think Justin Mclendon: that's, and I go ahead and try to Trey Laird: elaborate [00:23:00] on that point is. I needed to see early on, I needed to see successful guys in meetings. I needed to know that like, you know, you know, going into, into, into AA was not me, did not mean that I was going to give up my career and, you know, I'm never going to have fun anymore. And so guys who come to the lighthouse and look around as they get to know each other and realize that, you know, there's a lot of pretty successful men and women coming through treatment here that have had this, you know, an alcohol use disorder. And And, and by the way, they've also been running fortune 500 companies in the meantime. So you know it's, it's healthy for them to see that you know, recovery doesn't necessarily mean that you know, I'm, I'm lowering my goals or my expectations or, you know, I, or, or changing sort of where I want to get to put me in both vis a vis my family, my, my my, my profession and my passions. Right. So. Yeah. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: and I completely, what's coming up for me as we're talking about this is you know, not to say anything negative [00:24:00] about primary residential treatment, which we talked about a little while ago, but I agree. I think, you know, there's a place for residential treatment. It's a good place for people to learn. It's almost like I think about it as like emotional graduate school, right? Like you can go there. Get a ton of information, further stabilization, things like that. But, you know, in my opinion, exactly what we're talking about, I think the most important part of the early phases of recovery is exactly this, right? The community learning how to live in sobriety, learning how to find your way and have fun. And, you know, just like we're saying, I mean, the idea of learning the lesson that like, this doesn't have to be horrible. This doesn't have to be deprivation, right? I can find a way to. Be successful and like live a happy and healthy life is the biggest part in my opinion. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And these are all high functioning people, right? So, and they're, and look at what they're accomplishing while they're using. Imagine what you can accomplish if you're sober. Yeah. I mean, gosh, you could light the world on fire. So, yeah, it's pretty amazing seeing that light turn on. Right. And, [00:25:00] and, you know, see those people make that connection and start to have some success and then, you know, just light the world on fire. I mean, there's nothing better than that. And that's why we do this work. Right. Yes, Trey Laird: absolutely. You know, the other thing I would, I just wanted to mention is this idea to of practicing your recovery. And so you'll always ask me, well, Trey, what happens if a client you know, has a drink you know, while they're living with you? And I say Well, if someone has, it's really good information and really good data for all of us to have, right? So if you went to work and then, you know, you got invited to a happy hour because you haven't told your coworkers yet that you're not drinking and you went to that happy hour to appease, you know, your boss or a colleague and you got there and the next thing you know, someone ordered you a drink and you drank it. then, you know, that's good information for us all to have. It's not the end of the world. You don't need to go back to another 90 days of treatment. You know, we can work with that.[00:26:00] I understand, you know, the, the family's likely concerned and other stakeholders may be very worried about it, but it happens, right? Like normal recovery you know, typical recovery is not, maybe not linear, right? There might be you know, periods of, of of reuse again. And so, you know, The importance of family work and the importance of a coach who and the importance of not being punitive like we would never punish a client for for taking a drink or having a recurrence like that's that happens, you know, what what's not okay is to put our head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. And we all would also is not okay is to punish somebody for that recurrence. And so, you know, I think we're sort of moving in this direction where, where people who are working in the field understand that, like, you know, you got to walk with your client and you got to the ups and the downs. And I think that that's what we do really well. And by the way, it's also why I get a lot of people that don't want to go to treatment or don't want to start the journey because they, they think that like, you know, that if they have one drink or one [00:27:00] recurrence, like, you know, the world's going to end or they're going to. You know, be punished for that, right? And so we have no, our coaches and our team are really good at being like, listen, this happens now. What are we going to do? Right? What are we going to learn from this? What are, what are our takeaways and how are we going to monitor or sort of, you know, adjust what, what you're doing or not doing to to get the better, to get a better goal. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And I think in many ways it can be an asset to you, right? Moving forward. I mean, I had a relapse about five years in, you know, when I originally from when I originally got sober and you know, my sponsor at that point said, listen, this is part of your story now and you can now help another man who's struggling with the same thing. Right. And you have that experience now to go through this and, and it doesn't have to be punitive. What, like you said, it's, it's like, all right, let's dust ourselves off and. Keep moving forward and we know what to do. And we had a little slip there and let's, let's keep on moving forward. Right. So, I love that, that kind of notion and You know, I think that's a great way to [00:28:00] end it today to so much good information, Trey, and really appreciate you coming on here. Now where can everybody find you? What's, can you, can you give us your website and, and maybe social media? Trey Laird: Yeah, the lighthouse, the lighthouse ct. com is our website. We're on, we're on Instagram and LinkedIn at the lighthouse. We're in New Canaan, Connecticut. So, fortunately we don't have a ton of competitors up this way. So if you just Google the lighthouse, Connecticut, you probably find us quickly. And there's phone numbers on there. Anybody wants to give me a shout happy to talk further. And yeah, thanks for having me on guys. It's been great. I, I need to get down to Raleigh and and see your guys' place and keep doing the good Graham Doerge: work. Yeah, anytime, man. Yeah, I'd love, love to have you down and, and we're gonna do something this spring, so we'll we'll let you know and we'll get you down here. Awesome, awesome. All right guys. Well thanks. Fantastic having you on, and we will see you guys next week.[00:29:00] Show Notes In this insightful episode of "Finding New Waters," we are joined by Trey Laird, CEO and founder of The Lighthouse Recovery Services. With a rich history as a Wall Street equities trader and a personal journey through substance use disorder, Trey offers a unique perspective on addiction and recovery. He shares his story of transitioning from a high-pressure career to founding The Lighthouse, a sanctuary that helps individuals in the Northeast U.S. navigate the challenging path of recovery. **Key Points Discussed:** - Trey's personal experience with substance use disorder during his Wall Street career and his path to recovery. - The inception of The Lighthouse Recovery Services as a response to the lack of suitable sober living options in the Northeast. - The unique approach of The Lighthouse in catering to a high-functioning clientele, including executives and professionals. - Insights into the Recovery 365 program, which includes personalized coaching and daily proactive engagement. - The importance of community, connection, and finding joy in sober activities in the recovery process. - Trey's philosophy on relapse as a learning opportunity and the non-punitive approach to recovery. **Episode Highlights:** - Trey's candid storytelling about his struggles and triumphs offers hope and practical advice to those facing similar challenges. - A deep dive into how The Lighthouse blends structured recovery with the flexibility needed by high-functioning professionals. - Discussions on changing perceptions of recovery, the role of family in the healing process, and how to maintain a fulfilling, sober life. **About the Guest:** Trey Laird, with a background as a Wall Street equities trader and a Dartmouth College alumnus, brings a unique blend of professional acumen and personal recovery experience. His work at The Lighthouse is not just a mission but a testament to the positive impacts of living a sober life. **Closing Thoughts:** This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking understanding and inspiration in the journey of recovery, especially for those balancing demanding careers and personal challenges. --- For more information about The Lighthouse Recovery Services, visit their website https://thelighthousect.com

Robbie Shaw and Patrick Balsley, podcast hosts and private practice professionals, discuss addiction and mental health complexities, exploring the sober curious movement and the importance of a health and wellness-focused approach to substance abuse < Back to Episodes The Role of Family in Treatment: A Conversation with Todd Weatherly 33:34 min | Todd Weatherly | Finding New Waters In this enlightening episode, Todd unravels the intricate challenges young individuals face today - from navigating personal and educational hurdles to dealing with social media pressures. He draws from his personal experiences as a father, providing a genuine and heartfelt perspective on how to foster resilience and creativity in young minds amidst the digital era's challenges. Subscribe "Being bored is a good thing for a kid because it makes them go outside and play and use their imagination. This is a family disease; everybody's got some work to do." - Todd Weatherly Podcast Transcript #011 Todd Weatherly Todd Weatherly: [00:00:00] Just because you know what's going on and maybe you've done a little treatment, there's still a whole world of stuff that you probably need to follow through with in order for the all of this to stick. Yeah. You know, for a person who's suffer, if you've been hospitalized or you've got something that. Todd Weatherly: You guys would identify, say, as a primary substance use condition. Mm-hmm. And that's been identified. We know for a fact that a year of sobriety might buy you two. Mm-hmm. If you can put in a year, you might have bought yourself another one. If you can put in two, you might have bought five. Right. But sobriety is a lifelong process. Todd Weatherly: Yep. Um, it's not just about sobriety, it's about like self-care and self-knowing and identifying things that cause you to seek out. This numbing thing that you've done with your life or cause trouble? If it's a mental illness, you know, if this big, you know, the ugly head of a mental illness starts to rear its head, and I don't even know what that is. Todd Weatherly: The person had psychotic features, they had, you know, severe depression, or they had all this [00:01:00] impulse control stuff. It's like, what do we do with that? It's like, well, you don't turn on. It's not like breaking a leg. It's a long-term condition. We're gonna have to go for. You know, six months, a year, two years worth of various levels of care. Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge and I am the founder and c e o of New Water Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to Finding New Waters. I'm joined today by our Director of Admissions and Outreach Bee Reeves and Todd. We Weatherly managing partner at Stucker Smith and Weatherly. Todd is a pioneer and leader with over 25 years of experience in the FE field of Health and Human [00:02:00] Services. Graham Doerge: He's passionate about building programs, creating community, and helping families. A career driven by his deep commitment to serving others as a former treatment program executive director and ceo. He's a widely sought advisor throughout the treatment community. He is focused as a mental health and substance use treatment and program consultant, consultant for over a decade, and is a qualified mental health and substance abuse prevention professional. Graham Doerge: Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due due to one of these issues, most people have no idea what to turn, where to turn. Graham Doerge: We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Todd, thanks for being here today, buddy. Todd Weatherly: Thanks for having me. I, I'd like to add to that little bit You did about me. Thank you. That was very nice. That I'm really just a guy. Really. Just a guy. Just a Graham Doerge: guy. Yeah. A hundred percent. Graham Doerge: Right. And, and I think we're all, you know, we're obviously all working in this field and, and kind of, uh, doing God's work here and. You know, the reality is [00:03:00] that a lot of us are in this work because we've struggled with these things in our own lives. Right? Absolutely. Um, and, you know, I'd love to get into this a little bit today, and obviously the, you know, the real goals I kind of stated there is to, you know, provide resources for families to, to help them navigate the complexities of, of, uh, of, of dealing with substance use disorder or any mental health conditions. Graham Doerge: And, you know, you are a therapeutic consultant and I think that, you know, for a lot of people, they don't even really know what a therapeutic consultant is. So I'd love for you to kind of dig into that a little bit and kind of explain kind of what you do for, for your career. Todd Weatherly: Absolutely. Um, and a lot of the families that, that end up finding us, uh, and calling me or like, I didn't know you existed, I wish I had known about this several years ago or when we started this journey, because what they've done is, you know, ended up in a crisis. Todd Weatherly: Maybe ended up in a hospital. Um, and, and, and then after that it's like, well, we're just gonna follow the advice of the people that gave us this care for three days. [00:04:00] Right. And, you know, their version of that is just, oh, some outpatient and some whatever. We know that that's not enough for folks. Yeah. Um, hospitals are largely band-aids. Todd Weatherly: You know, they'll get a person to where they're not a harm to themselves or others. There's the criterion, right? And then after that, you're, you're good to go. Mm-hmm. Except you're not good to go. Yeah. Um, and then you walk out into this world where I. What kind of program do I have? Heck, what kind of illness are we dealing with? Todd Weatherly: I don't even feel clear. They've handed me a discharge summary that's two pages long. Mm-hmm. It's got a couple of words I don't really understand, or it's using terminology that I'm not familiar with. I go look it up on the internet and it's like, oh my gosh. It's like, well, do I need PHP or I o p? Does they need resident residential care? Todd Weatherly: What kind of residential care are they? You know, all of a sudden they're faced with this. Massive material, this undifferentiated mass of how to care for, uh, you know, mental illness or Coke oring substance use disorder. And they don't know where to turn. Yeah. Um, [00:05:00] some people try to do it on their own and when they do that, you know, they hit the Google consultant and mm-hmm. Todd Weatherly: And try to figure things out and they end up spending a lot of money, a lot of time. Mises, you know, Treatment after treatment, hospitalizations, all these other pieces that they see that ultimately don't work or not, you know, designed or a good fit for the person who's needing care. And they get a year, two years down the road and there's still no better off. Todd Weatherly: Right? Um, and so the, you know, the. A therapeutic consultant of course is, I mean, last year I tour 70 programs. Mm-hmm. I still feel like I still run into new programs. I still like, wow, there's a whole series of programs in this area I didn't know about. Right. Um, I can't imagine, I've been in the field for 25 years. Todd Weatherly: I can't imagine being a family faced with it and then all of a sudden having to go, okay, now I'm gonna make myself an expert. Right. You know, if you find someone who can be a guide, I mean, you don't go in a, you don't go [00:06:00] into, um, a courtroom mm-hmm. Without an attorney. Right. Because you don't know the law. Todd Weatherly: Right. Unfortunately, we don't have a user-friendly system. Yeah. Unless they come to places like New Waters, where people are very friendly and very accommodating and know what they're talking about. Right. If they happen to be lucky enough to find a resource like yours, awesome. Right. But otherwise, you know, they're, they're turning to this massive material and language and everything else. Todd Weatherly: They don't know how to manage. Um, and if they come to someone, they come to a therapeutic consultant like any member of our team, or they're, you know, there's a whole. There's not a lot of therapeutic consultants out there, but there are a few. If you happen to find a good one, they can help you identify things, navigate the system, figure out that, hey, you know, just because you know what's going on and maybe you've done a little treatment, there's still a whole world of stuff that you probably need to follow through with in order for the all of this to stick. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. You know, for a person who suffer, if you've been hospitalized or you've got something that. You [00:07:00] guys would identify, say as a primary substance use condition. Mm-hmm. And that's been identified. We know for a fact that a year of sobriety might buy you two. Mm-hmm. If you can put in a year, you might have bought yourself another one. Todd Weatherly: If you can put in two, you might have bought five. Right. But sobriety is a lifelong process. Yep. Um, it's not just about sobriety. Mm-hmm. It's about like self care and self knowing and identifying things that cause you to seek out. This numbing thing that you've done with your life or caused trouble. If it's a mental illness, you know, if this big, you know, the ugly head of a mental illness starts to rear its head, and I don't even know what that is. Todd Weatherly: The person had psychotic features, they had, you know, severe depression, or they had all this impulse control stuff. It's like, what do we do with that? It's like, well, you don't turn on. It's not like breaking a leg. It's a long-term condition. We're gonna have to go for, you know, six months, a year, two years worth of. Todd Weatherly: Various levels of care. [00:08:00] Yeah. People don't even know, they don't even know that fact Right. When they go into it. Graham Doerge: Right. So yeah. They think that they're gonna send their their loved one away. It's gonna be a 30 day, you know, quick fix and you know, we're gonna fix them and they're gonna come back a different human being. Graham Doerge: Right. Right. And that's obviously not the reality. Right. You know, for Todd Weatherly: they're not a car needing a new carburetor. A hundred percent. Graham Doerge: Right, right. No, and, and, uh, and it's interesting because we, you know, I, I think. In general, we've seen this over the last kind of, you know, six to seven years, um, where we've started to see a ton of. Graham Doerge: Uh, especially young adults too, who have been in treatment 6, 7, 10, 12 times. Right. Um, before the age of 30, you know, and, you know, that's concerning. Obviously we're missing something there. Right. And that was really why we started, you know, this assessment track to begin with, uh, at new orders was because, you know, again, we were missing so much. Graham Doerge: Right. And I think there was a lot of underlying issues that weren't being addressed or identified, whether it was, you know, possibly autism, o c d, you know, thought disorders and any kind of litany of things. And, you know, we just keep sending them down [00:09:00] the same pipe and sending them to, you know, a primary substance use program that's just not hitting the mark. Graham Doerge: Right. And so, you know, I think that you're, you're right. And, and I guess you hit on something there I wanted to, to, you know, pin on is, um, you know, you said if you get hooked up with a good educational or therapeutic consultant, what, in your opinion, what's the difference between a good and a bad? Or less than. Graham Doerge: What would you be if somebody was out there looking for a therapeutic consultant, what would you recommend that they, the top like five questions that they would ask? Well, Todd Weatherly: I mean, and uh, sometimes I get families a ask some of these, so I belong to an organization called the Therapeutic Consulting Association. Todd Weatherly: If you go to their website, you'll find a very long document of ethical guidelines for therapeutic consultants. Right. So we're not gonna read that, but you know, No, no person who's behaving or, you know, claims to be a consultant should be getting money from programs. Mm-hmm. They should be getting kickbacks. Todd Weatherly: This is not a, this, you know, they're [00:10:00] serving their clients or being an independent consultant means that you're not tied to any specific program, um, or, you know, in the pocket of any particular program. Right. Which happens. Yep. You've even got programs that will offer to pay consultants. For referrals, and it's like, I've had 'em, I'm like, yeah, that's no, you're like, don't Graham Doerge: be sending here anymore. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. It's like, well, it sounds like you're sending me here. Are you getting paid by these guys? It's like, it's a fair question and you should ask it. Yeah. Um, absolutely. The other piece is if you've got a consultant that's not out traveling, that's not meeting with programs and, and seeing places and getting around the country. Todd Weatherly: Um, for the TCA we're required to visit at least 40 new programs per year. Mm-hmm. Um, we can have a few of those be a recycle or a revisit, but generally speaking we're out there finding new programs that we haven't been to, um, so that we can, you know, broaden our scope of understanding of the field and what treatment is like out there. Todd Weatherly: Because [00:11:00] not only do you run into new places, which is great, but you also places change. Yeah. You know, we were talking earlier a little bit about wilderness programs. It's like, is wilderness work? And it's like, well there are good wilderness programs and then there are pro wilderness programs that ran into trouble of some kind and they closed. Todd Weatherly: Right? There are programs across the board that maybe they change leadership or maybe they just change clinical model. Yeah. Or maybe they change something and it's like there are some nuances here. I want to be familiar with. Before I send my client there, cuz I want to know what, who the right client is. Todd Weatherly: So you also want, you know, it's not necessary. I say this because I'm not a licensed clinician. I'm a, I've got other qualifications, but I've been in the field for a very long time. Look for, so look for, you know, organizations they belong to look for, um, social media presence or web presence that demonstrates that they're out there doing the work. Todd Weatherly: I would even Graham Doerge: say too, which I love, um, is talking to an alumni family. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's like, listen, get me, hook me up with three alumni [00:12:00] families that, that I can talk to and, uh, you know, and, and let's see kind of what their feedback is now. You know, they're gonna give you people that obviously had a good experience with them. Graham Doerge: Right. But you can, you know, get a, a good feel for it. Right. Todd Weatherly: You know, I had that, I had that come up and I, I gave a client, uh, an, a former client, the, their, their adult child. Mm-hmm. Um, they didn't end up going to treatment cuz they were very hesitant and they had a lot of issues that were. Kind of moving the needle along was difficult for them, but we were a resource for the family. Todd Weatherly: They had a plan when they were, when he was ready to kind of take that help and everything else. And even though we got through it, I still heard from the family. They were, uh, they were a referral for us. And you know, they are, are a reference. And when the reference calls, it's like, why did you give me a family where the person didn't actually go to treatment? Todd Weatherly: I was like, we don't know the end of his story yet. Mm. This family has gone through a long process and we've just been guides through that [00:13:00] process. He knows where to go. They know they've got the resources for being able to find what they need when he's ready. Mm-hmm. But everybody reaches ready on their own speed. Todd Weatherly: Mm-hmm. And so not pushing, not pushing a person and really listening to him and waiting them for waiting for them to be ready, even if it's not set inside of this service agreement term frame is really important and. They were like, that sounds really reasonable to Yeah. Me. So anyway, you know. Yeah, a hundred percent. Todd Weatherly: I've got B Reeves: a question. What, um, the terms educational consultant and therapeutic consultant seem to be somewhat interchangeable, but clearly there's a difference in the, and then you've got Todd Weatherly: educational therapeutic B Reeves: consultant, right. Can you just shed some light on that for everybody who probably has Todd Weatherly: wondered that as well? Todd Weatherly: So, ed consultant was born out of, I want to get my kid into boarding school. Mm-hmm. The top boarding school. Right. Or the top college, you know, or both. And then you had, and you know, that that started off a long time ago. And same kids [00:14:00] and then Graham Doerge: in the northeast. Yeah. In the northeast. Right. Todd Weatherly: And then, you know, suddenly it was like, you know, my kid before they go to boarding school is gonna need treatment or that, you know, they're having problems or, and then the treatment field became to, you know, started to expand, but the ed consultant stuck because when you were sending them to a. Todd Weatherly: Maybe you're sending to a board of school, or in this case a therapeutic boarding school. You had a, you needed a person who was able to review. Are they, you know, are they having reading issues? You know, what does their waste say? Yeah. What does their full scale iq, Graham Doerge: your master's in education. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. How does it match up to, how does it match up to a treatment program that's gonna help 'em address, say, dyslexia, for example, or what, or dysgraphia. Todd Weatherly: And so you had all of that coming in and then, you know, I think as time went on, We could probably speak about this for a while, but we just started seeing, I mean, people got kids and young adults got more and more complex. Mm-hmm. They had more and more complex conditions, and their [00:15:00] conditions were complex enough. Todd Weatherly: It's like. Forget school. We, we gotta focus on treatment. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna drop academics for a little while. Yeah. And we're gonna help this person get well. Do you think these, B Reeves: sorry to interrupt you. Do you think the kids have gotten more complex, or do you think that there are more labels to put on the same, same Todd Weatherly: type of kid? Todd Weatherly: I might ask that question of you too. I. I think that, I think we've got more words and I think we've got more capability to treat and evaluate. Um, the other piece though is, is that, um, we still don't have a functional mental health system, right? Mm-hmm. It doesn't exist in the school systems. By and large, it does not exist in the colleges. Todd Weatherly: By and large colleges will. I mean, they are very resistant, even admitting that there's a mental health or a, or substance abuse problem on their campus, right? Yes. As we all know. And so what you end up with is, uh, you kick the can down the road and a [00:16:00] person, if they had been treated when they started having problems, could have been pretty well off. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. Except now they're X how, however far down the road and this condition has gotten much worse. And then you've got the whole parenting equation. Mm-hmm. I mean, we see a lot of. I mean, we all see trauma, just some of the worst trauma that you can kind of imagine coming out of family scenarios or even school bullying scenarios or what have you. Todd Weatherly: And trauma just, Graham Doerge: yeah, it's, it's absolutely insane. It's a hurt, you know, what these kids are dealing with now, you know, and then social media and, you know, I was gonna say, social media, all the things that are coming at them, it's, uh, and obviously I've, I have, uh, three daughters myself, and it's, you know, they're very young and we're already starting to have the, have to, you know, have these conversations and navigate it and, You know, you see them, they're, they just get so attached to it and addicted to the, the screen. Graham Doerge: Right. Right. So, um, now, sorry, I had something that, I just totally lost my train of thought on that B Reeves: trauma. I've heard it said since I've been in this field that trauma is the, the real gateway [00:17:00] drug. You heard that? Todd Weatherly: Agree with that. What do your thoughts promised a gateway drug? You haven't heard that? The gateway, the real gateway drug. Todd Weatherly: Um, I mean, I, I agree with that. I mean, I think that, You, it's rare that you can work with someone who's struggling with a level of condition that requires the kind of intervention you guys provide. Mm-hmm. Or needs residential care that doesn't have some trauma in their background. Right. Yeah. You know? Todd Weatherly: Yep. Either it's as a result of their drug use or it was, you know, it's what incited their drug use. Right. For example, and, you know, co-occurring mental illness and all the other pieces. Traumas. Traumas there. Yeah. Um, resiliency is the, You know, there's a lot of, there's a resiliency model. Some schools are trying to use it, but like, why in the animal, like the they point at zebras, it's like, you see the zebra crossing the river and it's like, no, no. Todd Weatherly: Crocodile tries to eat it and something else, and it just kind of kicks it off and shakes it off and keeps going. It's like, how do we, yeah. How do we do [00:18:00] that? You know, how do we pick that back up as, as people living in a world that we do? That's, that's a good question. I think there's good programming for it, but, um, yeah, we, we could use a little more. Todd Weatherly: How have you, what B Reeves: have you seen, so on the, um, subject of social media and trauma and bullying and all that, I mean, you've been doing this long enough to see the real rise of social media just taking over everyone's lives. Has it just been, what's, what's it been like to see that in your, in your world? Todd Weatherly: Well, I mean, you know, Graham says it, you know, they're, you get, you got kids getting access to phones and devices like very early on. They're the substitute babysitter, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and so the problem is, is that it's everything at once. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like a, it's like I need some water, so I'm gonna put my mouth to a fire hose and somebody's gonna turn it on full black. Todd Weatherly: Like that's what mm-hmm. You know, I, I'm a Gen Xer, so I [00:19:00] grew up, we didn't have phones, we didn't have screens. You waited for your show to come on between this time and this time. Yep. And I just don't have the same draw to being obsessed with my phone that I see young adults Graham Doerge: having. Well, I even saw, I've read something actually funny enough today, and I was talking about how. Graham Doerge: Uh, kids today and really the phones and the screens and all that are becoming such an issue because kids today have no idea how to be bored. Right, right. And like being bored is a good thing for a kid because it makes them go outside and play and use their imagination and, you know, try to, you know, just figure things out, right. Graham Doerge: Rather than, you know, that instant gratification of. Always being entertained and constant, you know, screen time. Um, and I think that that's really becoming a, a a, that's part of like this whole thing that's happening with social media. And I don't even think we have a, a real grasp on how detrimental this is gonna be to our society at this point. Graham Doerge: But yeah, you know, we're certainly seeing a lot of it in the behavioral health field. And I even think too that, you know, there's gonna be a real market down the road [00:20:00] for, um, you know, techno technology addiction. You know, and yeah, I think that these treatment programs, you know, need to start, you know, trying to figure out how we're gonna start treating this technology addiction because it's just, Todd Weatherly: well, they're out there already. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. In fact, there's a program in the area where I am, um, foundation Asheville. They, they actually own the phones. So kids come outta treatment, they go into this transitional living program, they own the phone, it's got limited access. They monitor everything that's going on it. It's got some social media on it because they want 'em to practice, but they also are like, okay, did you feel triggered by any of these things today? Todd Weatherly: How long did you, you were only allowed to be on the phone for this long, and then they work their way to getting their phone back. Yeah. Um, and I'm, you know, like, yeah, Graham Doerge: that's, that's awesome. What? And that place is called what? Todd Weatherly: Uh, foundation's Asheville is, uh, is uh, is part of the Trails, trails, Carolina Trails, momentum, family of programs. Todd Weatherly: Very cool. Yep. Graham Doerge: Yeah, we were at a B Reeves: conference together. [00:21:00] Yeah. We were def at, um, Montreat, or, no, not Montreat, but I, I won't name the conference actually, but Oh, the young adult conference, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. And, um, and they, I sat in a, in a session, and I think we were just talking about the guy who was, who was the speaker. B Reeves: And they were talking about the ramifications of the therapeutic boarding schools and the PA and the parisel and stuff. And they were, the, the, the topic was what would be the next thing that would be considered abusive? And they were, they were saying that they were afraid that taking kids phones from them now would be considered abuse in 10 years because it's, it'd be like tantamount to chopping their hand off. B Reeves: Yeah. And that's the fear that the, that these kids are so addicted to their phones. The not having them is considered Todd Weatherly: abuse, and there's not, and, and, and they have no tolerance for the distress. Right, right. Yeah, I, yeah, that's a scary thought. Yeah. So, Graham Doerge: yeah, it is. And um, you know, it's certainly, [00:22:00] you know, we're doing the best that we can to, to try to like, manage those things at home and, and obviously working in the field. Graham Doerge: You know, in dealing with these things and seeing these behaviors is always, um, you know, you try to bring this stuff home and, and implement it in your life, but it's not easy, you know, it really isn't. Um, and I, I wanted to go back and talk about, you know, you were talking a little bit earlier about, uh, touring programs, uh, visiting programs, and the importance of all that. Graham Doerge: And that kind of brought something up for me too, because I know when, when here with, with our team and our, uh, continuing care team, you know, we really look at the program, but not only the program, but a lot of times, like who's the clinical, clinical team? Right? Right. And I think that that is something that most places don't do. Graham Doerge: But you know, we really need to start getting very granular on how we're, you know, referring our patients because, you know, If you're just sending a, a, a client to a program, that's a good program. It's really, it's, it's, you know, throwing darts at the dart board on what therapist you're gonna get, and you don't know what that fits gonna be like. Graham Doerge: And that's, that could be, you know, uh, that could be hit or miss on, on whether the program works. [00:23:00] Right? Yeah. So, uh, talk a little bit about that and, and, you know, well, yeah, I Todd Weatherly: mean, you know, there's the, there's the ones, it's not a school thought. I mean, it's, it's something that a study came out. You know, it's not the, um, They took five different treatment models. Todd Weatherly: Hmm. And they tried to measure the efficacy of the treatment models and they all came out about the same. And they found that the, the factor that made the determination as to whether or not the treatment model was successful was their provider. Yep. Was like being able to build rapport and having a trusting relationship and those kinds of things. Todd Weatherly: I think a lot of that centers around a good leadership team and a good clinical director. Mm-hmm. You know, you might, you know, you're throwing darts at a dart board for which therapist you're gonna get. But you know, for me, if I'm placing a client, I'm sure this is true for you. That's great. I love that you've got nice buildings and, and, and pillows on the couches, but can I talk to your clinical director for a second? Todd Weatherly: You know, and if, if what I [00:24:00] hear from that person is a person who knows how to look at the client that I'm sending to them and go, you know what? I think this person's gonna have a personality match with. You know, the new therapist that I just hired, or this therapist who's just, you know, old, old hand at this particular condition or whatever it is, or is really good at this particular practice or methodology and can really place and work a team and knows how to, you know, manage a milieu, you know, the treatment environment that way. Todd Weatherly: That's what I'm looking for out of a program. Right. And I'm looking for the relationship. I'm looking for somebody who can talk to me and we can kind of get to the nitty gritty for a minute and, and we can. We can whittle it down in, um, in fairly short order to make sure that we are a good match and, um, and then continue that conversation as the person receives treatment. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. You know, that's, that's what a consultant should be doing for you. Right. And then turn around and give it to the family. Maybe I'm jumping in on the call or I'm turning around and saying, I, you know, and several of my families now, they're like, even though they've been kind of through the [00:25:00] ringer, yeah. Todd Weatherly: They still feel unclear about how does this process go? And yeah, what does this mean, right? And, you know, what, what should we expect next? And all these other things. It's like they still even three years worth of being through it with their, with their adult child. And they still are uncertain as to what like two days from now should supposed to, is supposed to look like. Todd Weatherly: Right. So we, we have a lot of phone calls. It's like, right. Okay. You know, it's, we're, we're doing all right. It looks good so far. We're still early in, right? Yeah, a hundred percent. And we gotta be patient. You know? Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I, and, and from like a, a treatment provider perspective, I mean, having somebody like you in the mix is amazing because, you know, you, you're doing such great work with the family, right. Graham Doerge: And, uh, you mean that, you know of that, that I, and listen, we worked on clients together before. That's right. I know this for fact. So, um, but you know, I think that obviously that's important to us as, as the providers because, you know, we're, we're kind of on the front end and we're, we're handling the [00:26:00] client. Graham Doerge: And sometimes that's, that's. It takes a lot. Right? So when you throw the family into the mix, if we have a little support from somebody like you Oh yeah. And obviously you have a ton of background. I've been working with the family for, you know, uh, x amount of months. It's, it's, uh, it's a huge, huge benefit to us. Todd Weatherly: So, yeah. They're not blowing up the program trying to figure out what's going on. And we like, you know, they've got a little, they've got somebody they can go to when they're nervous and Right. Cuz they're often nervous and rightfully so. And they don't Graham Doerge: know that this is, this is not just, uh, as we said earlier, like, you're not sending your kid away to get fixed. Graham Doerge: Right. Right. This is, you're gonna be doing work too. You know, this is a family disease. Everybody's got some buy-in here and everybody's gonna have to, to kind of do some, do some changing. Absolutely. Todd Weatherly: Yeah. What do you B Reeves: ask families typically to do in terms of keeping their side of the street Todd Weatherly: clean? You know, a lot of, I, I think I don't want a family to feel like they shouldn't ask for information or feel like they know what's going on. Todd Weatherly: I think that's legitimate that a family wants to know that, but, You know the, it's the contact with [00:27:00] their child. Mm-hmm. Adolescent or young? Adult or adult. Like, I want, can I call 'em every day? It's like, no, I want them to turn to the program. Right. I want them, they're using you as a let 'em fly. Let 'em fly, like Right. Todd Weatherly: They're using you as a comfort right now. Yeah. I want them to turn to somebody else to follow, follow the program, engage in the program. Start getting benefit from the clinical care that you are paying for. Mm-hmm. So if they turn to you and you're calling 'em all the time and, and that's re there, there are some programs that take phones and then there are others where it's kind of freely available. Todd Weatherly: Mm-hmm. Depends on where you go. If they're doing this call all the time, I'm like, well, maybe we should one call possibly two Right. At a certain time and only for this long. Right. So set limits around that is, is one of the big things that, that is important. Mm-hmm. Why, B Reeves: um, So from what I know, consultants seem to be work with teenagers and young adults. B Reeves: And then is there a [00:28:00] need or do you find, do you work with, you know, adults, functioning adults who are, you know, maybe Todd Weatherly: kids? Is that ever happen? Well, you were, I mean, I think we were talking about, you know, what, what makes a good consultant? And part of it is also, you know, I have a team, so I have myself and three other individuals who, who work in my practice. Todd Weatherly: So each one of 'em has a, has a bit of a specialty. Like, if I feel like I'm outta my bandwidth here, I'll call, you know, one of my people and say, Hey, why don't you pick up this case? Because you've got either a connection to a program that's gonna serve them or a connection to the condition that they're, that they're struggling with. Todd Weatherly: Mm-hmm. Um, and feel like you can talk to the family. So we're, we're doing personnel line matches as well. Um, I think that you find consultants who. We'll kind of take business when it shows up. Mm-hmm. That happens. Um, 12 thir like child therapeutic placement [00:29:00] zero to to 11, 10, 11. Mm-hmm. It's own bag. Yep. Todd Weatherly: Mm-hmm. I have, I have to refer all those out. Right. Um, I refer most of the up to 16. Out. Mm-hmm. Cause 1314 also its own bag. Mm-hmm. It's a whole, it's a whole world unto itself. Mm-hmm. You know, there's educational evaluation. The programs are different. So if I'm in the stream of visiting young adult and adult programs, I'm not picking up these therapeutic boarding schools and treatment treatment programs for that age group. Todd Weatherly: Right. And then young adult, even young adult. Is kind of its own world. Mm-hmm. You know, there's a, there's a strong cord of young adult treatment out there. Right. And you can go to wilderness or you can go to residential treatment, facility-based residential treatment or assessment center, or, I mean, there's the wide variety, right? Todd Weatherly: And then where you start running out, and this is part of what, you know, our practice we do is we're actually one of the few that serves older adults. So I've [00:30:00] got 25 to 30% of our client bases. Over the age of 40. No way. Wow. I didn't know that. So 40, 50. I've got a 70 year old. Wow. And, and you know, they need to stabilize their own meds. Todd Weatherly: They need to stabilize with a substance use condition. You guys may be seeing one soon. Um, and so, you know, these are, these are people that are, They've been through lots of treatments or hospitalizations or they've, they've fallen off of, of maybe a medication has been working or they've stopped taking one because they were, was making 'em feel weird. Todd Weatherly: Mm-hmm. And all of a sudden they're symptomatic and they, you know, they're, they've gotten really, the brain at 40 looks different than the brain at 20 and 15. You know what I mean? It, it's a whole new ball game when you start doing that. And their treatment options are less. Right. So for a, for a, a good consultant's gonna be able to know what their bandwidth is and stay with their wheelhouse. Todd Weatherly: Right. If you came to some, if you came to me with somebody [00:31:00] regardless of their age, and they were, you know, they were, uh, on the spectrum mm-hmm. You know, ASD two pretty severe symptoms and condition. It's not my, it's not my wheelhouse. I know some people who really specialize, right? In autism spectrum disorder. Todd Weatherly: And I'm like, Hey man, can you guys, you gotta get room for a client because this is not my wheelhouse. And being able to say that and refer out and go to people that you know, that you know, or have got, you know, skills in the area where they need to be in order to serve that client and pass off clients and have a network of people that you can pass clients off to. Todd Weatherly: That's another reflection of a good consultant. That's awesome. Yeah. So you might not know that if you're a family, like you wouldn't know the in ins and outs of my practice, but like being able to refer out and, and know, know what your wheelhouse is, is important. Graham Doerge: I. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I mean, it's just ethical, right? Graham Doerge: It's ethical. It's just ethical and that's what we need to do. And, and, uh, obviously not everybody does do that, unfortunately, but I think that it's important that, [00:32:00] um, you know, families know that like there's this internal network really of people like yourself who all work together and, and, and are very well connected and know what each other's specialties are and all that. Graham Doerge: So I, I really do feel like, you know, families, if, if you do need resources like this, please reach out to, uh, you know, Todd and, um, you know, just ask him for, for resources or, or just bend his ear, you know, because we all are constantly taking these phone calls and, and just trying to kind of help navigate families to the best resources. Graham Doerge: And a lot of times it's not us. And, and, you know, that's what we do is, is get them to the right place, right? First phone Todd Weatherly: call's free. Yeah, we'll talk as long as you need. Graham Doerge: That's right, that's right. Don't use the Google consultant. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, you know, we'll, we'll end the episode, but today in wanted to, uh, just say thank you to Todd so much for coming in today. Graham Doerge: Thank you guys. Thank you. Um, please visit our website at www.findingnewwaters.com, where you'll see all of our episodes up there, like [00:33:00] subscribe, uh, also on all streaming platforms. Um, and we'll have Todd's information up on the website as well. Um, and, uh, thank you all for joining us today. Todd Weatherly: Thank you so much for having me be yeah, man. Todd Weatherly: Thank you. Thanks guys. Graham Doerge: Thank you. Show Notes Join us in welcoming Todd Weatherly, a seasoned educational consultant hailing from the serene mountains of Western North Carolina, on our latest podcast episode. Weatherly, who shares his abode with his wife, two teenagers, pets, and an impressive collection of mountain bikes, brings over 25 years of rich experience in the field of behavioral health. Armed with a BA in Psychology, an M.Ed. in Outdoor Education Administration, and dual qualifications as an NC Mental Health and Substance Abuse Prevention Professional, Todd has been a stalwart in the field of mental health and addiction treatment. His contributions to the field are not just limited to his previous roles as an Executive Director and CEO but also extend to his association with notable organizations such as the National Association of Therapeutic Schools & Programs, the Therapeutic Consulting Association, and the Young Adult Transitions Association. In this enlightening episode, Todd unravels the intricate challenges young individuals face today - from navigating personal and educational hurdles to dealing with social media pressures. He draws from his personal experiences as a father, providing a genuine and heartfelt perspective on how to foster resilience and creativity in young minds amidst the digital era's challenges. Todd also lends his profound expertise on the role and selection of treatment programs in dealing with various behavioral issues. He underscores the importance of trust, leadership, and the crucial involvement of family in the treatment process. Todd's commitment to service reflects in his advice on directing clients to specialists to ensure they receive the right care. This episode is an invaluable resource for parents, educators, and anyone interested in the welfare of young people growing up in today's fast-paced world. Immerse yourself in this enriching conversation with Todd Weatherly and glean insights on trauma, resilience, and the path to a healthier future for our youth. Todd Weatherly Links: ⁠https://stuckersmithweatherly.com/more-about-todd-weatherly⁠(https://stuckersmithweatherly.com/more-about-todd-weatherly) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/weatherly/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/weatherly/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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In this insightful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with **Alexis Haines**, Director of Business Development at **Crisis Case Management (CCM)**. Alexis unpacks the complexity of true intervention work—far beyond the TV dramatizations—and shares how CCM approaches healing through comprehensive case management, family systems support, and long-term planning. < Back to Episodes Rethinking Recovery: Community, Connection, and the Power of Hope: Ross Ellenhorn 34:16 min | Ross Ellenhorn | Finding New Waters In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Ross Ellenhorn, Ph.D., a social psychiatrist, author, and founder of Ellenhorn—one of the most innovative community-based mental health programs in the country. Ross shares powerful insights on why traditional models of treatment often fail those in deep psychiatric distress, and how purpose, social value, and human connection play a vital role in true recovery. From challenging the current system’s focus on diagnosis and disempowerment to unpacking how fear of hope holds people back from change, Ross offers a thought-provoking conversation that will shift how you view mental health, addiction, and healing. Subscribe “People don’t fear change—they fear hope. Because hope means the risk of being let down again.” -Ross Ellenhorn Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Ross Ellenhorn, Ph.D., a social psychiatrist, author, and founder of Ellenhorn—one of the most innovative community-based mental health programs in the country. Ross shares powerful insights on why traditional models of treatment often fail those in deep psychiatric distress, and how purpose, social value, and human connection play a vital role in true recovery. From challenging the current system’s focus on diagnosis and disempowerment to unpacking how fear of hope holds people back from change, Ross offers a thought-provoking conversation that will shift how you view mental health, addiction, and healing. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Introductions • [02:00] Ross on Charleston and cultural memory • [05:00] The Ellenhorn Model: A Community-Based Approach • [10:00] The Problem with Readiness Models in Mental Health • [14:00] Why Traditional Programs Can Fail • [17:00] Risk in Recovery and the Mystery of What Works • [22:00] Treating People as Humans, Not Diagnoses • [26:00] Fear of Hope and Resistance to Change • [28:00] On Play, Improvisation, and Sacred Originality • [33:00] How to Learn More About Ross & Ellenhorn Key Topics: 1. The Limits of Diagnosis-Centered Care 2. Why Community-Based Support Outperforms Institutions 3. Hope as a Double-Edged Sword in Recovery 4. The Role of Improvisation and Play in Mental Wellness 5. Humanizing Treatment: Why Relationships Matter Most About Ross Ellenhorn: Ross Ellenhorn is a social psychiatrist, founder of Ellenhorn, and author of multiple books including How We Change (and Ten Reasons Why We Don’t) and Purple Crayons: The Art of Drawing a Life. His work centers around helping individuals with severe psychiatric and substance-use issues recover while staying integrated in their communities. Ross’s approach focuses on restoring dignity, connection, and autonomy to people whose needs are often minimized or pathologized. Learn more at: 🌐 https://www.ellenhorn.com 📘 Books on HarperCollins or Amazon 🌱 https://www.cardeacare.com (Ketamine & psychedelic therapy) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn #RossEllenhorn #MentalHealthRecovery #CommunityCare #Ellenhorn #FindingNewWatersPodcast #PsychiatricRecovery #AddictionTreatment #HopeInRecovery #TraumaInformedCare #MentalHealthMatters

In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Landahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. < Back to Episodes Navigating High-Performance Pressure: Maren Londahl-Smidt on Athletes, Money & Mental Health 39:05 min | Maren Londahl-Smidt | Finding New Waters In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Londahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. Maren shares her insights on how high-achieving individuals navigate identity, financial struggles, and transitions—especially when their careers take unexpected turns. From addiction to financial mismanagement, she explains how stress and pressure can push people toward unhealthy coping mechanisms. She also highlights the importance of financial literacy, emotional regulation, and preparing for the inevitable career transition that many athletes and professionals face. Subscribe "Find somebody you trust and don’t do it alone—building the right support system is everything." – Maren Londahl-Smidt Show Notes In this episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Maren Londahl-Smidt, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addictions Specialist, to explore the unique mental health challenges of elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high performers. Maren shares her insights on how high-achieving individuals navigate identity, financial struggles, and transitions—especially when their careers take unexpected turns. From addiction to financial mismanagement, she explains how stress and pressure can push people toward unhealthy coping mechanisms. She also highlights the importance of financial literacy, emotional regulation, and preparing for the inevitable career transition that many athletes and professionals face. --- ### **Timestamps:** - **[00:00] Introduction**: Meet Maren Londahl-Smidt and her work in therapy and coaching. - **[02:00] The Pressure of Elite Performance**: Understanding the mental health challenges of athletes and entrepreneurs. - **[06:00] Identity & Career Transitions**: What happens when athletes retire or face setbacks? - **[10:00] Financial Pitfalls**: Why so many athletes struggle with money after success. - **[14:00] Addiction & High Performers**: How the drive for success can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms. - **[18:00] NIL & College Athletes**: The mental and financial impact of young athletes earning money. - **[23:00] Finding Purpose After Sports**: How to build a fulfilling life beyond competition. - **[28:00] Workaholism vs. Passion**: The blurred line between success and burnout. - **[32:00] How to Connect**: Where to find Maren’s services and resources. --- ### **Key Points Discussed:** 1. **Why High Performers Struggle with Mental Health**: The connection between identity, pressure, and emotional challenges. 2. **Athletes & Financial Struggles**: The role of financial literacy in preventing post-career crises. 3. **Addiction & Attachment**: Why high performers are more prone to addictive behaviors. 4. **The NIL Era**: How young college athletes are navigating newfound wealth and pressure. 5. **Planning for the Future**: Why having a post-career strategy is essential for long-term stability. --- ### **Guest Bio:** **Maren Londahl-Smidt, LCSW, LCAS** **Licensed Clinical Social Worker | Licensed Clinical Addictions Specialist** Maren Landahl-Smidt is a therapist specializing in working with elite athletes, entrepreneurs, and high-performing individuals. With over seven years of experience in outpatient therapy, medical settings, and community mental health, she helps clients navigate emotional regulation, financial stress, and career transitions. Maren’s approach is client-centered and strengths-based, incorporating various therapeutic techniques such as Attachment-Based Therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Emotionally Focused Therapy. 📍 Learn more: [https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt](https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt)(https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt](https://www.carolinaperformance.net/maren-londahl-smidt)) 📧 Contact Maren: Maren@CarolinaPerformance.net(mailto:Maren@CarolinaPerformance.net) | (919) 675-2259 YouTube: @BalanceandBeyondCoaching Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/balance-and-beyond-coaching-solutions-llc-a63631353(http://www.linkedin.com/in/balance-and-beyond-coaching-solutions-llc-a63631353) TicTok: @balanceandbeyondcoaching Carolina Performance, www.carolinaperformance.net(http://www.carolinaperformance.net/) --- ### **Resources Mentioned:** - **Infinity Growth Practice (Maren’s Therapy Practice):** [https://www.infinitygrowthpractice.com](https://www.infinitygrowthpractice.com) - **Balance and Beyond Coaching (Maren’s Business Coaching):** [https://www.balanceandbeyondcoaching.com](https://www.balanceandbeyondcoaching.com) - **Circle of Security Parenting:** [https://circleofsecurityinternational.com](https://circleofsecurityinternational.com) - **You Need A Budget (YNAB) Financial Planning Tool:** [https://www.ynab.com](https://www.ynab.com) --- ### **Follow Us:** - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc)) --- ### **Watch & Listen:** - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)) --- ### **SEO Hashtags:** #MentalHealthForAthletes #AthleteIdentity #FinancialWellness #AddictionRecovery #FindingNewWatersPodcast #NILMoney #HighPerformanceCoaching

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Navigating the Future of Behavioral Health with Tripp Johnson 37:47 min | Tripp Johnson | Finding New Waters In this thoughtful and insightful episode of "Finding New Waters", we sit down with Tripp Johnson, a dedicated mental health advocate, who provides an enlightening look into the future of behavioral health and substance abuse care. Drawing on his wealth of experience, Johnson explores the urgent shift towards integrated care models, the significant role AI and individualized data will play, and the power of community in healthcare. Subscribe "The best behavioral health organizations in 15 or 20 years are gonna be managing massive amounts of individualized data and they're gonna be providing community both for the people that they're serving and for their teams." - Tripp Johnson Podcast Transcript #017 Tripp Johnson Tripp Johnson: [00:00:00] But ultimately I think we're putting like way too much emphasis on the pharmacology aspect, not enough emphasis on social determinants of health and all of the community stuff. Like I think we've gotten so disconnected and social media and technology is, Only makes it more so that like we forget, like we're social primates, like we came outta the primordial stew. Yeah. Like we're animals and we forget that because we're now we're just on our phones and we forget about community and then all the things that used to bring us together and like the shared humanity. So I'm thinking a lot about like how do we advance a narrative of wellness, of human flourishing and leverage the healthcare system? Tripp Johnson: Cuz that's what it's there for.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our continuing care coordinator, Ryan Jarrell and Tripp Johnson. Tripp is the founder and c e O of Aim, Aveda Integrated Medicine, and the owner of Green Hill Recovery as the C E o Tripp is responsible for strategic decisions, organizational performance, and cultural management. Graham Doerge: Trip ensures that all team members are aligned with Aimes core values, living centered accountability, unity, transparency, and growth. Additionally, trip is responsible for developing Aimes brand, the externalization of its culture, [00:02:00] which involves representing the organization locally, regionally, and nationally. Graham Doerge: Trip. Graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point with a Bachelor of Science in Economics and a minor in systems engineering at West Point Trip was a four year member of the varsity tennis team and winner of the Patriot League Championships. After graduation, he was commissioned into the Army as an infantry officer and completed the US Army Ranger School, airborne School and Air Assault School. Graham Doerge: Trip deployed to Southern Afghanistan as an infantry platoon leader in 2012 13 in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Upon return, he was selected to be an ex executive officer before finishing his service as a battalion operations officer. Prior to joining Green Hill Trip was a second year law student at U N C and an interned at the North Carolina Department of Justice Trip left Law School to pursue his passion for helping young men navigate the complexities of early adulthood. Graham Doerge: That's a great place to start for me. Trip, welcome and happy to have you here. And glad that you could [00:03:00] finally make Tripp Johnson: it. I've been waiting for the invite. Graham Doerge: Listen, we had to work out some kinks before we, we had you in here, right? I'm psyched to have you today, man. And obviously we've known each other for a bunch of years now. Graham Doerge: I consider you a dear friend and and obviously a confidant and a guy that I can go to with Issues, questions, business related issues. So it's really cool to have you in here today. Yeah. Tripp Johnson: Excited Graham Doerge: for it. Yeah, man. So let's let's start with how did you get into this field? And, obviously you've got a military background of decorated. Graham Doerge: Individual. So give us a little bit of background. Tripp Johnson: Yeah I'll start with I grew up in Hickory, North Carolina. I thought I was gonna be a professional athlete. I was traveling around the country for tennis, which was all going really well until I, I had a little bit of an attitude problem and injury. Tripp Johnson: And then that kind of coincided with, I'd always put everything off to focus on tennis, and I decided hey, Tennis isn't everything, then maybe I should start having a little bit more fun. That led me to really [00:04:00] probably becoming, embracing a new identity. I had really had an identity built around being a tennis player. Tripp Johnson: The next identity I had was around being just over the top a partier. And then I found myself at, 17 trying to figure out how to make my family proud because I hadn't really tried very hard in school, didn't have great grades, and they had all gone. Have their master's degrees and stuff from grade schools. Tripp Johnson: Didn't know how I was gonna get in anywhere. Yeah. So I ha I was still good at tennis, but I wasn't great and I looked up prestigious schools with bad tennis teams and I found the Ivy's. I was like I could play with these guys, but they're not gonna recruit me really hard. Then I found West Point. Tripp Johnson: And their tennis team. And I love the tennis team. I feel very connected. So I'm sorry for any army tennis players out there, but like we're just not the top D one team out there. And so they recruited me to play there and it was a great institution and I always had looked up to folks in, in the military. Tripp Johnson: So it checked every box ended up [00:05:00] barely getting in to, to the service academy. I think that coincided with the same week with the first time I got arrested for drinking. And then I, went to West Point thought, oh, I'll get everything together. You've gotta be, this is gonna provide all the structure I need. Tripp Johnson: But it didn't, just like anywhere you can find that your group of guys to run with, I found my guys, or I might have started the group at least in my class. So I started, just had the same pattern. Work hard, play hard barely graduated, got in a lot of trouble while I was up there which is all funny now, but wasn't at the time to my family. Tripp Johnson: After graduating, like we said, I went to ranger school, took over a platoon, went to Afghanistan, and I was still getting in trouble. Like I had this funny. Seasonal, I call it the seasonal arrest record. Yeah. Like I would do really well all year and then the summer would come and I would blow it up and I think it was because I was much more comfortable picking up the pieces and putting them back together than actually waiting into new waters. Tripp Johnson: So it was like really comfortable for me to to blow [00:06:00] it up and then rebuild back to where I was and then blow it up and do it again. So I always got very good at that rebuilding right kind of process. So when I came back from, The deployment. I fortunately had a friend who actually ended up being in Congress, max Rose. Tripp Johnson: He pulled me aside. He's dude, what are you doing? He's you're not this, you're trying to be this character, right? This macho man, hard partying guy. But you really want to be more intellectual. You want to do other things, but you think this is what you're supposed to be, right? So you need to investigate that basically. Tripp Johnson: So I was like that, that hit hard. And so I called my dad and was like, I don't know. What I need, but something's gotta give. And he said, this is gonna sound crazy because you're this 210 pound Army ranger macho, drinking a fifth of vodka, chewing a bunch of Copenhagen guy, but I think you're gonna this type of yoga and I think you should start meditating. Tripp Johnson: And this type of yoga was a shanga yoga and and he said, look just try it for a month. Just do 30 days in a row, see what happens. Yeah. [00:07:00] And I said, cool. I did it. And he sent me a copy of The Untethered Soul, which is a book I recommend all the time. And a couple videos of Alan Watts. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. And that kind of kicked off this whole new path for me, and it was very much about, I had looked for, I had looked for a lot of, relief in, drugs, alcohol, and just embracing the hedonic pleasures as I call them. And that didn't work. Like it was, it didn't fill whatever hole, whatever I was looking for. Tripp Johnson: And yoga meditation started to provide that path for me that it, that felt like there were a lot of strings to pull at and went off the deep end there for a while. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And dig into this as Ashtanga, the actual practice of Ashtanga a little bit. Cause No, our audience really knows what Tripp Johnson: that is. Tripp Johnson: So it is a, Ashtanga yoga in the most traditional sense iss just the eight limbs of yoga. And so it, it's a holistic path of yoga. It's not just the asana or the physical practice, but usually when we're talking about Ashtanga these [00:08:00] days, it's a particular set series of postures. And typically you do this kind of first thing in the morning. Tripp Johnson: There's a lineage out of kind of Miso India, and I was introduced to that again by my father, started practicing. It's a really intense practice, so a lot of the power yoga that people talk about, the hot yoga, that stuff, a lot of it stems from the asanga lineage, but the really cool thing, and I think what's really powerful about it is that you, you have this set sequence and instead of a teacher, Walking everyone through the same sequence at the same time every day. Tripp Johnson: What you do is you practice every day, but you go at your own pace, you follow your own breath, and your curriculum, as they call it is really given to you by the teacher. So you want some level of mastery over the postures that come before it until you get the next one. Got it. For me, what it was like, it was really challenging. Tripp Johnson: I couldn't touch my toes. And there's a lot of forward folds in the beginning and. It provided a [00:09:00] really nice challenge every day and a way to really fine tune my body and my awareness with that because everything you eat, drink, all of that affects how you show up on the mat. So at first it was really just a physical practice. Tripp Johnson: It was just a really good exercise routine in some ways. Yeah. But it also introduced me to the idea that there was more to it than just these postures. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Now, so is there a particular diet that you, that people practicing our stock here Tripp Johnson: follow or. The Yo Ang or yoga's kind of sister science is Ayurveda, so a lot of people have some sort of Ayurvedic ish diet. Tripp Johnson: Most folks are vegetarian. I'm 99% vegan. Sometimes I'll sneak a piece of cheese, like if it's sitting out here in the hallway. I've seen it. Yeah. I try not to tell people about that, that's my real indulgence these days is a, an occasional piece of cheese. But yeah, so I've been vegetarian or vegan for probably eight or nine years. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. Ryan Jarrell: Trip I've known you for, I. For years now. And I gotta tell you, I think I've learned the most about your past from that three paragraph intro that Graham just read. I've known bits and pieces, but [00:10:00] I think one of the cool things about working with you is you do have this story that to the outside seems really winding, but to know you is to really know someone who has a through line and a, and an intentionality behind it. And you've gone everywhere from young tennis pro to someone who's in active combat situations in Afghanistan all the way to, doing yoga with 28 year old heroin addicts. Ryan Jarrell: And I'm wondering is there a through line that you can identify throughout these pieces? Is there something that weaves it all together that Tripp Johnson: makes it kind of trip? Yeah, I always say it started where the through line at least starts for me was in fifth grade. I remember sitting on the floor of the gymnasium watching a talent show. Tripp Johnson: And I felt like extremely untalented. This was before I was, good at tennis. And I just thought, man, like it would be cool to be talented. Then I'd be happy. Then I started thinking like really, I just wanna be happy. Yeah. And That led me to really having an early experience of, oh, I could just choose that this is okay and everything is good. Tripp Johnson: And I did that for a little while, but, then [00:11:00] the mind starts going you, the ego gets involved and that's, what really drove me competitively with tennis. There's also, there's an interesting story with religion winding into that, which was, I. I grew up in a, a Christian household, but not dogmatic. Tripp Johnson: We didn't really talk about it that much, but I thought, Hey, if happiness is important, then, and then I found out about heaven and hell started thinking about that. I was like happiness on earth is one thing, but like I want to turn all happiness, so I better be very dogmatic about my, religious practices, what I need to do to get into heaven essentially. Tripp Johnson: And then, again, my black and white thinking back then was very much okay, I'm gonna follow all of these things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be good enough for God, then I'll get into heaven. And then when I started really investigating scripture, I found too many inconsistencies that my mind couldn't make sense of at the time. Tripp Johnson: So then I threw it out. It was like throwing out the baby with the bathwater situation. So I said, Hey, look, if that's not part of it, [00:12:00] then. I'm just supposed to have as much fun as I can right now no matter what. And so it was really that search for happiness and which I can now consider more of a search for like contentment and equanimity, but it was definitely this search for like how can I just. Tripp Johnson: Be happy and be content in my body. And then the idea, the other kind of piece of that was I always felt very lucky. Like I always knew I was a really lucky person and so part of my happiness was always going to be like being a part of something bigger and feeling like I was giving back to the world. Tripp Johnson: That's what obviously led me, to the military piece and then what I do now. Graham Doerge: Yeah. No and I think that obviously, working with young adult guys, I can that's been a passion of mine o over the years as well. And what kind of really drove you to particularly work with this population and Bill Greenhill recovery. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And tell us a little bit about Greenhill Tripp Johnson: recovery too. Yeah. As far as Greenhill goes, I didn't have a passion for it. Yeah. The truth is that someone had the idea, [00:13:00] my first business partner had the idea for Greenhill. He was originally going to open it with another friend of ours who had gone through a very similar program to Greenhill. Tripp Johnson: That relationship fizzled out and he called me and he said, Hey, do you wanna help start this? And I said, I was in law school, I had just finished up, or I was in the middle of my internship at the attorney general's office and I hated it. Hated it. And, I've been devoting my life cuz I, I had this real, change in path when I was in the army that basically said I can keep trying to change the external circumstances where I can really work on me. Tripp Johnson: And then I spent and I continue to spend a, a lot of my time working on me. And he said you build the, you helped me build this thing. I'll handle the business side, the marketing, all that. I'm good with that, but I just need you to help build a program and run a team. I've never had any leadership experience, so I need someone to help with that. Tripp Johnson: So I came on as the CO and a co-founder in it. And I loved what we did because for me, That was [00:14:00] exactly the path I had been on. Like we were working with a lot of young adults that had similar situations, and I always say that if my family was not supportive of me and had resources. Tripp Johnson: I probably should have gone to treatment. I probably, I could have been in a lot different legal situations and so the idea of, that was like I got to jump, I was in law school to figure out what I wanted to do, and then this opportunity to like just do what I wanted to do. Tripp Johnson: Showed up at my doorstep. So I certainly wasn't any sort of like visionary, like I need to go fix. Young adult treatment or I need to provide something else. But I certainly resonated with it and I think the existential piece of growing up and the confusing pieces, especially now, I think it's even more confusing for 22 year olds now than it was when I was 22. Tripp Johnson: I just really sympathize with the position these guys are in and that there is a, there's like a path out of it, but that it can be very difficult to navigate and especially when you have, substance use concerns, mental health concerns, but also you want to do things in life. Tripp Johnson: It's not just, yeah, it's not just a [00:15:00] vacation. And certainly getting sober isn't a vacation, but. What we do is like really try and build people's, lives and so that they have purpose and meaning Graham Doerge: And clients are typically coming to Green Hill after completing some sort of like residential treatment Tripp Johnson: or something like that. Tripp Johnson: So yeah, so Green Hill Transitional Living program, typically it's 18 to 28 year old male identified patients, and most of them are coming to us after having done at least 30, usually 90 days of treatment. Occasionally they'll come going through stabilization. Depending on what's going on. Tripp Johnson: But yeah, they usually come work with us for six to nine months and then the goal is that we, we get 'em back into school, help them establish careers and really get integrated the community and in Raleigh because there's just so much to offer here. Yeah. And Graham Doerge: I love that. Obviously working with that population I like I can identify with it so cuz I was a young guy getting sober myself. Graham Doerge: I was 26 when I went into treatment and for the first time probably should have gone a whole lot longer or earlier rather. [00:16:00] And I can identify as well with you said I was, I had annual legal issues just like every six months I had annual suspensions. Yeah. From boarding's schools. It was once a year. Graham Doerge: I was, sent home for a couple weeks, and that's just how it went for three to four years. But I think that, with these young guys in particular, for me, when I was facing it, it was so daunting to think, oh my gosh, for the rest of my life, I cannot use these substances. And I wasn't married, I wasn't, there was all these life events that I was just, ugh how am I gonna do that? Graham Doerge: What is that gonna be like? And, the reality was I was super fortunate because probably about halfway into treatment I had the awareness that, life is not over because I can't use these substances. It's just really beginning because look at all the amazing things I can do and started throwing myself into all this stuff, fly fishing and whatnot, and just finding really healthy, passionate, passionate hobbies. Graham Doerge: And that's like your Ashtanga, that's your peace. That's what gets you going in the day, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's so important for these young to make that connection for these young guys. And a lot of them just [00:17:00] they don't have the wherewithal to go there, Ryan Jarrell: especially today, and what, we're gonna be another podcast that talks about social media, right? Ryan Jarrell: But the, the kids that, I see the kids, because I've worked at Green Hill previously, and these guys are looking on TikTok and they're seeing all their friends and they're smoking blunts and they're drinking all day and they're meeting cute girls and some guys telling 'em to do their laundry, right? Ryan Jarrell: Make your Tripp Johnson: bad. And that is, Like Ryan Jarrell: Exactly. And that is like unambiguously a bad situation, right? Yeah. And the beauty of working at Green Hill and working with you guys is. What I really appreciated is it's not a one size fits all. It's not a cookie cutter type program. You will do individualized service and be able, not just to give this kid some order, but to be able to extend the kids some real compassion. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. Because I think we all, like the three of us all know how it is to be a kind of crappy 20 something year old kid, and we can have real honest compassion for that Absolutely. As a result. Yeah. Trip Greenhill Greenhill's an excellent program that's still like a centerpiece of the Raleigh recovery community. Ryan Jarrell: But your company has similarly definitely had some changes over the years and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the [00:18:00] expansion of services and like the through line that drove that. Yeah. Because you guys are much, you guys absolutely do fantastic transitional living and you guys do a lot more than that for the Raleigh Tripp Johnson: community. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. So the this is where I can say I would definitely was not the visionary for Greenhill, but in, in working at Greenhill and really trying to build it I love what we could do. I always say if we could have bat a thousand on guys coming to Greenhill and having what we're gonna call as traditional success right out the gate, it's all I'd ever do. Tripp Johnson: Yeah. Because it is the, it's the most rewarding population cuz you know, when you get a guy in young, early adulthood, Launching into a career, like there are so many wins that can be there. Yeah. And the ripple effect from the, that is incredible. No, it's so cool. Yeah. But the thing is everyone knows, like treatment doesn't just go well, yeah. Tripp Johnson: It's not always gonna go well. I've always, as taken a pretty philosophical stance on things. And so I really. Green Hill had was doing its thing from a, a business perspective. [00:19:00] But I kept on running into these problems we had addressing the needs of our current clients and that was, I. Tripp Johnson: Integrated care, like we needed psychiatry and just contracting with someone, even if they're the best psychiatrist in the world, doesn't mean that they're actually going to be communicating with the rest of your team like you need them. And so the first thing was like, at Green Hill needs to improve, and the next step is integrating care. Tripp Johnson: Then I've been deeply influenced by the effect of altruist movement, which is under a little bit of flack right now with the whole Sam Bankman free thing. However, I think philosophically it's super important because just like I go back to one of my through lines is service and really wanting to do something for other people, but not just wanting to feel like we were trying to do good, but actually doing good. Tripp Johnson: And how can you know? So effective altruism is all about how you can use your resources, being your time and your money to do the most good possible. And again, I love what we do with transitional living, but [00:20:00] that had it own limitations. And the thing that sucks the most about Green Hill and just private pay treatment in general is that there's a scarcity, there's a pervasive scarcity mindset, and it's very expensive. Tripp Johnson: It's, you feel for these families who you wish you could help, but they just don't have the money. And so it became I got really interested in the insurance side of things and I really wanted to. Figure out if there was a way to work more with insurance and do psychiatry. And so that's the kind of genesis of where Adv, Vita Integrated Medicine, and now we're we're doing like a little rebranding and it's the Adv Vita Collective. Tripp Johnson: Green Hill and Aim were set up originally as separate entities and now we brought the whole gang back together and running it as one collective integrated care. And really the idea of a recovery oriented system of care too. So there are multiple on ramps and all ramps in our system now. Tripp Johnson: So guys who go through our transitional living may stay in the area, continue working with us on therapy and psychiatry and or people may start with us for, [00:21:00] finding a therapist or doing medication management and may end up in a different service. But that gives us a lot of flexibility to just meet people where they are, build rapport, and then really work to serve them. Tripp Johnson: So that's I think that answers it 100%. Ryan Jarrell: And I gotta tell you, like I think being a part of that, as that opened up and working at Greenhill, one of the most amazing things was that we were having this totally holistic, comprehensive care where we were having weekly meetings, not only with therapists, but with the psychiatrist at the transitional living level. Ryan Jarrell: And no one else can even tell how, what a fantastic service that is. And we weren't doing it to. Shout from the rooftops. Look at this amazing service. We didn't jack up prices as a result, we did it because you wanted to do it because it was the best way to do this care, and you wanted to do it the best way Graham Doerge: possible. Graham Doerge: Yeah. There's such a need right now. No, obviously getting in to see a psychiatrist, getting to see a therapist is. Know, month, two month waiting list if you can get in at all. So I think that creating this when you did was so necessary. Yeah. Yeah. It really has been. It's been a great [00:22:00] resource for us and obviously we've sent a ton of clients over to aim and it's been fantastic. Graham Doerge: So what are your kind of plans for the future? I know that you're always building and expanding and I know that you're very passionate about managed care and all that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're doing moving forward? Tripp Johnson: I think the first thing I'll say, and we can double click here if we want to at all, but last year was chaos. Tripp Johnson: Last year, as as you both know from being now on, on the ground floor with two new organizations, Ryan, but the first year or two is just, you're figuring it out. You think, and then what's the mic tag? Like you get punched in the face and everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Tripp Johnson: And there's I'm at this point I don't think you can start something new without taking a punch to the face. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're trying, I think as you all are trying to do here at New Waters too, like we're trying to do something better. Like it's not just a cookie cutter. Tripp Johnson: It's not just, Hey, like we can do these services like this. We're actually. It's a very creative process of how can we make this happen? Yeah. And why aren't things done this way? And why aren't they, why isn't this the standard? And sometimes there's a [00:23:00] reason and sometimes there isn't sometimes reasons, like people are lazy and they got greedy and they figured out one business model and they're just replicating it. Tripp Johnson: Yep. But other times there are reasons and you're like, man, I wish someone had told me that. So last year was chaos. So I'm trying to stay a little bit more grounded in terms of future directions right now. Certainly, We do have a few things. I say that and then I go into a laundry list of things. Tripp Johnson: I know. We're gonna be starting a full model DBT program soon. Oh, cool. I'm working really hard with Blue Cross to come up with a unique billing code to, to help us do this and then for us to share data with them. To hopefully pilot it cuz this full model DBT is one of the most effective treatment. Tripp Johnson: It's really the be has the best evidence base of anything in clinical work. And yet it's almost never done through insurance. And again, there are barriers for a reason around that because essentially insurance companies don't. Compensate you for those groups and the work it takes outside of it. Tripp Johnson: So first thing coming up is full model D B T. Okay. We'll be finishing. We're licensed [00:24:00] for, we're not running a PHP level of care right now. We're probably going to start PHP as well as an ambulatory detox for people who meet that criteria. Maybe some point this year. Tripp Johnson: We're finishing up our mental health licensure as well. So we will have the 1100 license in North Carolina, which means we'll be able to do PHP and i o p Don't see that happening right now. But the wellness concept is really what gets me, like I, I view. I, if as like I talk a lot about health insurance and the importance of doing things through health insurance, and I think a lot about behavioral health and its direction, but that's not my interest. Tripp Johnson: My interest is in this notion of human flourishing and just that this is the system, this is the healthcare system we have. And so we wanna be able to tap into it to increase human flourishing. But a lot of what I hope to see in the future, I also more sober living, really thinking about supported living. Tripp Johnson: As we talk about social media, I think a ton about how things are changing and [00:25:00] how so much is online now. And, which is great. I'm a huge technologist as well. But the real world is something that we all have to navigate. And I think housing, we have an affordable housing crisis. We also have just a supported housing crisis as well. There are a lot of people who need services and they're just not out there. So I'm thinking a lot about housing. I'm also interested, very interested in making some steps towards I want us to be one of the first people doing psychedelic assisted therapy legally in North Carolina. Tripp Johnson: I think there's a lot of promise. I think it's funny because the guy who has a psychiatry practice now, right? Doesn't really like psychiatry very much, does. There was a great armchair expert episode that just came out. It basically says 10% of drugs work. Like 10%. And so maybe we change it a few times and we get there. Tripp Johnson: But ultimately I think we're putting like way too much emphasis on the pharmacology aspect, not enough emphasis on social determinants of health and all of the [00:26:00] community stuff. Like I think we've gotten so disconnected and social media and technology. Only makes it more so that like we forget, like we're social primates, like we came outta the primordial stew. Yeah. Like we're animals and we forget that because we're now we're just on our phones and we forget about community and then all the things that used to bring us together and like the shared humanity. So I'm thinking a lot about like how do we advance a narrative of wellness, of human flourishing and leverage the healthcare system? Tripp Johnson: Cuz that's what it's there for. Yeah. Yeah. There's not much going on. Yeah. No. Yeah. Just a little. Yeah. As you just said, I'm gonna slow Graham Doerge: down a little bit. Tripp Johnson: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm curious guys Ryan Jarrell: and it's actually I think this is a good question for both of you, is business as we know it, especially post covid pandemic, like so many businesses have en endured these significant sea changes. Ryan Jarrell: New technologies are disrupting everything. You guys are both CEOs for At least partially like substance use treatment places. And I'm wondering what kind of wider effects you guys see for the business at large Graham Doerge: coming up. [00:27:00] Tripp Johnson: Do you? At least in, I think we're, we can always follow the trends of Medicare and Medicaid, so I think we're actually a long way in behavioral health for, like everyone wants to talk about disruptive technology, adaptive learning curriculum. Tripp Johnson: I think there's a lot of promise in it. But I just go back to, that's why I'm back to the real world. That's where I feel like, we need these third spaces. We need these places to get together. And we need we need good housing. I think we're going to see, in California now, I believe Medicaid's covering housing. Tripp Johnson: I think we're gonna see a lot of trends like that. I think we're, I think we're actually about to, we're gonna see a pretty big sea change in how we are looking at care. But when I say look at, Medicare and Medicaid, what they're doing, they've done this integrated care for the past 20 years. Tripp Johnson: And Private insurance and private programs haven't done it. So now we're under a lot of pressure as insurance, cuz 15 years ago you couldn't use your insurance for mental health or substance use treatment. So it was all private pay, that's all that existed. Now that insurance covers some of this [00:28:00] again, for better, for worse sometimes. Tripp Johnson: But now that insurance covers it, there's a pressure because now there are more programs opening up doing providing substance use and mental health services. So I think we're gonna see a big shift in integrated care. I think it's going to become pretty common. I think what we're doing right now, what, like what I'm doing isn't actually unique. Tripp Johnson: It's just more unique in, in this setting. So I think we're gonna see a lot of integration between primary care and behavioral health. And then I do think we're gonna see a lot of shifts in how we're How we're looking at the future. I think 10. I don't think the healthcare system will adapt as quickly as it should, but AI's already more powerful than. Tripp Johnson: All of us. So I think it's like foolish to think that it's probably not better at algorithmic thinking than we are. But I think we're gonna need community. And I think behavioral health, like the best behavioral health organizations in 15 or 20 years are gonna be, managing a massive amounts of individualized data. Tripp Johnson: And they're gonna be providing community both for.[00:29:00] The people that they're serving and for their teams. And I think that piece is how like organizations are gonna continue to adapt and change. But I think this idea that we have to see a doctor or a therapist for exactly, I think that's all gonna change. Tripp Johnson: Fee for service models are gonna change. But ultimately people need people and places to go. So I think like we're also in the best, Healthcare is 20% of GDP almost. They're their beha, mental health, behavioral health, substance use. It's only going to continue rising with as we become a more, individualized society and living on our phones and. Tripp Johnson: Soon everyone's gonna be doing their Apple VR sets and scary, then it's all over. Graham Doerge: And I think there's so much more awareness right now too, right? And everybody is, just having these conversations. 10 years ago people weren't having these conversations, and that's the reality. Graham Doerge: And now everybody knows there's just so many more tools out there. Yes. We're. A lot more fucked up than we were, part of my language. But we, also have a lot more tools, I think, and there's a lot more resources, which [00:30:00] is great. But in my, I love like connection is everything, right? Graham Doerge: Connection is recovery, right? In my opinion. And And, I'm really of, from the school of, I really think that the smaller more kind of boutique model of programming is really more effective. So I think that we're gonna see, just talking about headwinds. Graham Doerge: We've seen so much private equity money come into this field and, these organizations, a lot of these smaller programs are getting gobbled up by these larger entities and all that and creating these. Monster healthcare companies. And it's just really hard to do really good treatment when you've got 900 beds across the country. Graham Doerge: Yeah. It just is, man. We have 31 beds here at New Waters and every day you like, you have no idea what is really gonna be happening day to day. And there's so many variables all the time. And you have to have a really. Incredible team to manage all that stuff. Graham Doerge: And if you've got, 900 beds, I can't even wrap my head around how you would manage something like that, my hope is that, people will really wisen up to the quality of care in a lot of instances. And I think we do the really [00:31:00] good job with that. Graham Doerge: And hopefully people get connected with organizations like ours who can help them navigate the complexities of all this stuff, Absolutely. Good question, Lee. Yeah, Ryan Jarrell: I think one of the things that stands out about both these places and it really is both and I think that's very special, especially in a detox setting, is we get a community that's built. Ryan Jarrell: Yeah. And there are guys, green Hill is the only home that they felt safe. Yeah. And we're a seven day detox and people are calling us three months later just to ask how we're doing or they're sending us candy and stuff like that, or we can't get 'em outta here. Yeah. That's also maybe a current difficulty that we have right now, but Tripp Johnson: But Graham Doerge: it's, am I gonna have a TV where I'm going in my room? Graham Doerge: It's not happening. We do Ryan Jarrell: spoil 'em sometimes for the next level of care. When will I get my phone? You'll never get your phone. Not at all. But that we build a community and that we're able to participate positively in, in these people's lives. It really is. I. I think more and more as I work in this industry more and more, I think what a true blessing it is to be able to do that for a living, Graham Doerge: Yeah. And I think too, that, like you were, you and Ben and your crew and Louis Finch and, all of you guys who opened your programs, within the last kind [00:32:00] of. 10 years, there really wasn't a whole lot here before then. No. If anything, yeah. Graham Doerge: And you guys have really built this recovery field or behavioral health, model here in, in Raleigh. And it's and you guys had a lot to do with why we opened new orders here, and I had a relationship with you prior to, and Louis was always telling me, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. Graham Doerge: And, finally we were able to make it happen. But but yeah, it's just, it's really cool to see everything that you guys have built here and you're and the reason one of the. Other reasons I wanted to start this here was because it's such a collaborative, area. And and everybody has really good intentions. Graham Doerge: Everybody. Not everybody but everybody that we work with for the most part is, super ethical and and it's just doing this work for all the right reasons. Yeah. And and it's not just getting people in the door. Yeah. It's, what is gonna serve this client best. Graham Doerge: And, we're sending clients all over the country because, that's what we need to do to set them up with a good trajectory forward. Absolutely. This has been great to catch up with you and chat here. Thank you for coming in today, trip and where can everybody find your [00:33:00] information and Tripp Johnson: we can go to trip j.com, t r ipp j.com if you want some of the personal musings and also some behind the scenes looks at what we're doing at the invite a collective. Tripp Johnson: And then there's aim wellbeing.com and greenhill recovery.com if you're looking for our specific programs. Great. Graham Doerge: Yeah, and we're gonna have all the all his information on the show notes. Obviously everything will be Put up on all streaming platforms and you can find us at finding new waters.com. Graham Doerge: Thanks so much and we will talk to you guys next week. Thank y'all. Show Notes In this podcast episode, Tripp Johnson, Co-founder and CEO of the Invita Collective, is the guest. Johnson's Invita Collective includes Aim Wellbeing and Green Hill Recovery, organizations that provide care and support for people struggling with substance abuse and mental health issues. The podcast hosts are Graham Doerge, co-founder of New Waters, and Ryan Jarrell, COO of Green Hill Recovery. The podcast begins with Johnson describing his background and his journey into the field of behavioral health. He shares his experience of moving from the finance industry to addiction recovery and mental health, spurred by his personal experiences and his passion for helping others. He highlights how the Invita Collective is working to integrate mental health and substance use care to provide more comprehensive and effective treatments. Johnson then discusses the effects of COVID-19 on mental health, substance use, and treatment centers. He shares the challenges faced in providing care during the pandemic and highlights the potential silver lining, the acceleration of telemedicine and virtual care, which has increased access to mental health services. Following this, Johnson talks about how his company is leveraging data to personalize and improve care. He explains that they use data to identify risk factors, predict outcomes, and adapt treatments to each person's unique needs. However, he also emphasizes that human connection and empathy cannot be replaced by algorithms. In the final part of the conversation, Johnson predicts future trends in healthcare. He anticipates a shift towards integrated care, greater integration between primary care and behavioral health, and an increase in mental and behavioral health as a part of the GDP. He also expects changes in fee-for-service models and a move towards handling individualized data.Graham Doerge and Ryan Jarrell both emphasize the importance of community and connection in recovery. They discuss the difficulties of managing many clients and the need for strong teams and effective management. They appreciate the collaborative and ethical atmosphere in their field and stress on doing what's best for the client, even if it means sending them elsewhere for treatment. #MentalHealth, #SubstanceAbuse, #IntegratedCare, #Healthcare, #BehavioralHealth, #Trauma, #AIinHealthcare, #Insurance, #Community, #Depression, #Anxiety, #DomesticViolence, #DigitalTherapy, #COVID19, #Recovery, #PrimaryCare, #QuarantineEffects, #Telehealth, #IndividualizedData, #MentalHealthAwareness. Tripp Johnson Links: ⁠https://www.trippj.com/⁠(https://www.trippj.com/) ⁠https://www.instagram.com/trippjohnson88/⁠(https://www.instagram.com/trippjohnson88/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/trippjohnson88/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/trippjohnson88/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/green-hill-recovery/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/company/green-hill-recovery/) ⁠https://greenhillrecovery.com/⁠(https://greenhillrecovery.com/) ⁠https://aimwellbeing.com/⁠(https://aimwellbeing.com/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. < Back to Episodes Finding Joy in Sobriety: Dylan Starrs on Purpose, Relapse, and Building a Life That Lasts 39:43 min | Dylan Starrs | Finding New Waters In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. He shares how he stopped “auditing” recovery and finally put real sweat equity into his sobriety—through mentorship, structure, and showing up every day for his community. Dylan also reflects on music, golf, grief, purpose, and what it really means to stay connected to your own recovery while leading others through theirs. Subscribe “Sobriety isn’t something you receive. It’s something you build.” – Dylan Starrs Show Notes In this deeply personal episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dylan Starrs, Program Director at Mountain House Recovery in Flagstaff, Arizona. Dylan walks us through his rollercoaster journey—from chasing rock stardom and working at Bel-Air Country Club to disappearing into addiction, crashing in motels, and ultimately finding recovery that stuck. He shares how he stopped “auditing” recovery and finally put real sweat equity into his sobriety—through mentorship, structure, and showing up every day for his community. Dylan also reflects on music, golf, grief, purpose, and what it really means to stay connected to your own recovery while leading others through theirs. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Dylan’s Backstory – From musician to mentor • [04:00] Relapse, Recovery & Reinvention – Losing everything, then finding hope at St. Christopher’s Inn • [10:00] Discovering Community at Jaywalker Lodge – Starting a podcast, giving back, and finally surrendering • [15:00] What is Mountain House? – A structured aftercare program for young men in Arizona • [20:00] Sobriety Isn’t a Gift—It’s Earned – Dylan on emotional graduate school and putting in the work • [25:00] From Rockstar Dreams to Real Purpose – Music, mentoring, and helping men heal • [30:00] Recovery as a Lifestyle – Having fun sober, staying right-sized, and showing up for life • [36:00] Final Thoughts – Family recovery, teaching through experience, and building legacy Key Topics Covered: 1. The Myth of the Quick Fix – Recovery doesn’t come from receiving—it comes from building 2. Emotional Grad School – Why true sobriety takes time, work, and reflection 3. Relapse & Redemption – How Dylan found grace, humility, and mentorship in unexpected places 4. Structure, Joy & Community – Building a life you don’t want to escape from 5. Staying in Recovery While Working in Recovery – Boundaries, self-care, and staying teachable Guest Bio: Dylan Starrs Program Director, Mountain House Recovery Dylan Starrs is a musician, recovery coach, and the Program Director at Mountain House Recovery, an aftercare facility for young men in Flagstaff, Arizona. After years of chasing fame, relapsing, and restarting his life, Dylan found long-term sobriety through structure, service, and connection. Today, he helps young men navigate life after treatment while still pursuing joy through music, golf, and community. 🌐 Website: https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com(https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com/) 📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mtnhouserecovery(https://www.instagram.com/mtnhouserecovery) Resources Mentioned: • Mountain House Recovery: https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com(https://www.mountainhouserecovery.com/) • Jaywalker Lodge: https://www.jaywalkerlodge.com(https://www.jaywalkerlodge.com/) • 12-Step Meeting Finder: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this inspiring episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we sit down with Leah Wright, the heart and soul behind Wake Monarch Academy. Leah shares her deeply personal journey that led to the creation of a pioneering recovery high school, offering hope and tailored education to young individuals striving for a life beyond substance dependency. Tune in to discover how Wake Monarch intertwines healing with learning in a supportive community committed to its students' success. < Back to Episodes Wake Monarch Academy: A Beacon of Hope with Leah Wright 49:39 min | Leah Wright | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, we sit down with Leah Wright, the heart and soul behind Wake Monarch Academy. Leah shares her deeply personal journey that led to the creation of a pioneering recovery high school, offering hope and tailored education to young individuals striving for a life beyond substance dependency. Tune in to discover how Wake Monarch intertwines healing with learning in a supportive community committed to its students' success. Subscribe Addiction is a family disease, and you need recovery too. Find a meeting that works for you and start going."- Leah Wright Show Notes Join us on a profound journey with Leah Wright, the visionary founder and Executive Director of Wake Monarch Academy, in this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast. Leah opens up about her personal trials navigating her son's addiction, which led to the creation of a transformative recovery high school dedicated to adolescents fighting substance use disorders. With a mission rooted in the belief that recovery must come first to lay the groundwork for all future success, Leah details how Wake Monarch Academy provides a nurturing environment for students to chase academic, personal, and professional triumphs. This sanctuary of learning and healing is more than just a school; it's a community where young individuals regain strength and build a future. Discover how Leah's unwavering faith and extensive experience in education culminated in a resource that fills a critical gap for families and their loved ones on the path to recovery. For more information and to support their mission, visit Wake Monarch Academy's website at ⁠Wake Monarch Academy⁠a(https://chat.openai.com/c/www.wakemonarchacademy.com)nd learn about the philosophy and people behind this life-changing institution. Podcast Website: ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4 Apple Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠ Youtube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw Youtube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ Linkedin: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery Tiktok: ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠. Join us on this transformative journey! Transcript Leah Wright-1 Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] If you could leave a potential family member or a potential, client or somebody that's struggling with kind of a nugget or something that you wish that they could walk away with, what would that thing be? Leah Wright: Here's what I consistently find, including myself, right? Families forget, they get so wrapped up in their loved one, right? Leah Wright: That's struggling. They forget about themselves. So even if it's putting out like. No one can do recovery for you, right? You got to do it for yourself. You got to want to do it. Don't do recovery for somebody else, right? Do it for yourself. And that look, that could be the whole family and that you can't do it for someone else. Leah Wright: But find the resources, find somebody who gets you because, unless you've walked in these shoes, it's very hard. To understand, what someone's going through unless they've experienced it, even though we all have different journeys. So that would probably be my best thing is you do knee recovery and do whatever you can to find that support of what [00:01:00] that journey looks like for you, right? Leah Wright: There's no set path. Leah Wright: Good afternoon. My Durgie, and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Leah Wright: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Justin Mclendon: Thank you guys for joining us for a new new episode of finding new waters podcast. Today I'm joined by Leah [00:02:00] Wright, who is the executive director of the Monarch Academy. Justin Mclendon: Did I get the name of the Wake Monarch Academy? Wake Monarch Academy. Yes. There we go. Correct. I'm so happy to be here. THank you so much. Yeah. It's been a long time. I feel like we haven't seen each other in a while. Leah Wright: It has been. Yeah. It's been a few years, right? It's been a few Justin Mclendon: years. Justin Mclendon: Feels that way. Yeah. Yeah. So I thank you so much for joining us. I'd love to start out with just what brought you to, I know Wake Monarch Academy, I know just talking to you over the past, several years is, been a big passion of yours, something that you're very passionate about watched from afar as you built it and watched it come to fruition. Justin Mclendon: And so just first question is, what brought that interest and what led you down that Leah Wright: path? Honestly, personal, a personal experience with my son. Yeah, he was, when he was struggling as an adolescent, we couldn't find any help. And we didn't know any family that was going through it. Leah Wright: We hadn't been around it. And with him, it started. With marijuana, we handled it, thought it was consequence or typical teenage behavior, but then the [00:03:00] behavior continued to escalate and we didn't know where to turn. And so everywhere we did turn and ask, looking up, treatment centers or multiple psychiatrists, psychologists. Leah Wright: We just, when we were first referred somewhere, I would call and they go how old is he? And I'm like he's 16 or he's 17. Sorry, we only serve 18 or above. So it was very isolating and all the while just watching the addiction continue to grow, from marijuana to pills to ultimately heroin addiction. Leah Wright: And I'll never forget he had been in and out of rehab and Refused to go back, was still using and we didn't know, we didn't know what to do. And there was a doctor that had a family practice that had an addiction specialist there. Okay. And so I said, hey, let's... Leah Wright: What do you think about going to talk with them? So he agreed, and they had an IOP. He said, I, I'll do an IOP. And I went, okay, awesome. And the doctor looked at [00:04:00] me and said you need recovery too. And I, the first words out of my mouth was like I'm good. I don't use. Leah Wright: I literally said that's what I was thinking. And she goes, no, like you need recovery. Addiction is a family disease, and you need recovery too. And I went. Okay, and she said, here's Alana, Narna, she gave me a bunch of different places. She said, find a meeting that works for you and start going. And so I'm like, okay. Leah Wright: So in my mind, still being extremely codependent on my son, I said you know what, you do your IOP and I'll go to these meetings and we'll do recovery together. Like I had still not transferred my own brain as to I need to make it about me. I, it was for me looking at, I'm going to support you. Leah Wright: We'll do this together and I'm not really thinking. About me really so going to the meeting. I remember, going around visiting and thinking, Oh, this is not helpful to me, but then that's how I met you was many years ago at healing transitions working [00:05:00] over there and went to their family support group. Leah Wright: And so there for the first time I was around other people that were going through what I was going through and not feeling alone and starting to listen to Oh, wow, they gone through the same things I have a couple of things that were really like mind blowing to me were some hard decisions that had to be made by some families. Leah Wright: And I remember thinking at that time Oh, I'll never do that. Like how could somebody do that, to their child and but just the more I got involved with it and really starting to educate myself. And then later the family support group said to me one day, she said, Leah, you're going to love your son to death. Leah Wright: And I will never forget that. It was life changing to me. And I started getting tools in my own toolbox and I remember hearing about recovery high schools in a conversation that we'd had at a [00:06:00] family support group, but at this time, our son was probably about 19, 20 years old at this time. Leah Wright: We've been dealing with this since he was 14. So many years into it. And I remember thinking, wow, that's a really cool idea, but there's none around here and he's already out of high school. Okay. It literally went in one ear and out the other. But about a year later as I continued to work on my own recovery, and our son had been not, very long. Leah Wright: I think he probably went, at that time, the longest he went was about three months. And then here we were just in this cycle. But it truly, I have a very strong faith for myself. And led. I felt like this was something that I should be doing. I fought it for a while because I'm like, Hey God doesn't use me to do what to start a school that even makes sense. Leah Wright: I was getting ready to retire actually that same year from being an educator of 30 years in Wake County public school system. So I'm like, I'm getting ready to retire. I'm like, Yeah, I'm going crazy. Like [00:07:00] I want to help others. I don't want others to go through what we did as a family But like this is not gonna be me But I fought it and the more I thought it the stronger it began so on a Sunday afternoon. Leah Wright: I had not watched the film, Generation Found and I told my husband Jimmy, I said, I want us to watch this film together, this documentary together about, I didn't even tell him what it was about. I said, I want us to watch it together and then afterwards I'm going to tell you. Why I wanted to watch it with you because I knew if I didn't have his support to do this I don't know how I could have done it. Leah Wright: And so I literally bought through the whole documentary because all I could see was how our son would have thrived in that environment, um, wishing that he had it. And so after the, documentary is over, I sat and I went the reason that I wanted to watch this with you is. I feel like I'm supposed to do this. Leah Wright: I have no idea how to do it, what to do, where to turn, but I need your support. [00:08:00] And so he was on from the very beginning. And then the next person I went to was our son who at that time was living in an Oxford house. And before he got kicked out of that one, but I went to him and I said I feel like I'm supposed to do this, I'm gonna start researching and I hear there's a Charlotte school that's also been, they're a couple of years ahead, but they are getting the school open and some reach out to them, but if I decide to do this, are you gonna be okay? Leah Wright: Cause I know people are gonna ask me, why are you doing this, right? And in order to tell them that, I'm going to have to share our story. Are you going to be good? And from there, he said, yeah I'm going to be good with that. And so once I had those two, then I, reached out, started gathering information, and talked to their executive director. Leah Wright: She was the founder, not executive director at that time, and said, how did you do this? And so they, just as we did, started, we did screenings of [00:09:00] Generation Found at multiple places. I remember that, yeah. Started telling everybody what we were doing, what was the process, wanting to build a team, anybody interested, and helping us come join the team. Leah Wright: And we're meeting, this day and this day. And started working on our non profit application, and so that took a while. But We had my very first meeting was May 7th of 2018 with a group of seven of us some from my family support group my husband was there the youth pastor and An addiction professional that I worked with our son And who had actually was very involved with the healing place, which is now Healing Transitions. Leah Wright: Very much valued what he had to say. And so he was at that first meeting. And then a year later, almost or a year plus, July 17th of 2019, we became an official 501c3 nonprofit. Then our goal was to open up in 2020. We had just found a location and we're starting [00:10:00] inspections. And then... So that could, that put a big, stop on everything and what could we do? Leah Wright: So basically we lost our team because how can he, it was hard to delegate what to do if no one could go anywhere. So the ones that remain was the board. And so the board very hardworking board, what could we do? While no one can meet, we can't do anything. So we started working on like a strategic operating plan. Leah Wright: What's our handbook going to look like? So things that we could do on a computer, on Zoom that we didn't necessarily have to meet. And would send revisions and what do you think about that? So that's what we did until things started to open back up again. And as soon as they did, we started inspections cause we weren't totally sure if we could even do the school there because of all the inspections that needed to be done. Leah Wright: And we had started, but then couldn't finish. But fortunately for us, the inspections turned out okay. We had to do a little bit of [00:11:00] upfitting, but. We were able to open. So then was like, okay, here's our timeline. So we opened a year later. So we did our ribbon cutting June 30th of 21 and opened in August of 21 with two students. Leah Wright: So it was just myself and another staff member. We hadn't found our, the recovery coach position yet. So we're like We can do this. We've talked to other recovery high schools. We can contract with another treatment center. So we actually contracted with Greenhill recovery. So I was like healing transition. Leah Wright: Greenhill is I know one of these two, we've We have met and interacted before, but we contracted with them to do our check ins in the morning. So check ins where you touch base on mental health topics, recovery, and that's what we did until the first, that fall. And then we were able to actually find that perfect person, your recovery coach, who, started in January of 22. Leah Wright: Okay. Yeah, I know Justin Mclendon: Ian. That's awesome. Is he still with you guys? Yes. That's [00:12:00] great. Leah Wright: How about that? He's an amazing individual. That's awesome. And has just really helped to build a program and has wonderful relationships with the students. That's amazing. Justin Mclendon: That is amazing. Yeah. Sounds like a long road. Leah Wright: Long road. Yeah. Long journey that honestly looking back like I would never want to relive or wish on any other family, but I will tell you, there's so many experiences and feelings of, especially new in recovery, a lot of these families are just at the very beginning, right? Only been with it a few months, so I can relate a lot to those. Leah Wright: Feelings, especially time of send your child off to rehab and okay, good, they're fixed. They're fixed. Yeah. They're good to go. I remember all of those same failings. And so it makes, I can relate to them and guide them through the process. But instead of them waiting and years into it, like we were not knowing where to turn, like they're immediately connected to resources. Leah Wright: We have family support within our school as well. So yeah. Addictions of [00:13:00] family disease. So again, learning from my own experience of saying, Hey, you need to go to weekly support groups, find one that works for you, but here's why, give them the why behind it. Because we're not going to be a good fit for a family. Leah Wright: If a family comes and says fix our child, cause we're not a treatment center. We support the treatment, right? But we are not a treatment centers, if a family says, fix my child and they're going to sit back and not do anything, then we're not going to be a good fit. So I'm very upfront in sharing that information through a tour. Leah Wright: There's a process for enrollment, but when we enroll a student, we know that they want to be there and willing to work a program of recovery. So Justin Mclendon: You mentioned you're not a treatment center, right? I know that, but so I'm wondering maybe a next a good next step is what is Wake Morn Ark Academy? Justin Mclendon: Obviously it's a recovery high school, but what does that look like? What does the student look like? What did they engage in? What does that Leah Wright: look like? YeS, a safe and supportive environment for a student in recovery, but honestly, so [00:14:00] much more. Yes, working on the sustained recovery. Leah Wright: Yes, trying to give them a college ready academic program. That we, I, as a school, like I report to the Department of Administration. Which there's really no set curriculum. I could make it whatever I want to make it. Interesting. But for us, we didn't want families to look that they were getting less or like a step down for academics. Leah Wright: Cause we knew a lot of these students would be coming from our public school system. Sure. So I'm like, I really want to have it. And I being the board, the organization, let's make this where they're really getting a step up because with all the individualized instruction that they're giving in addition to recovery, but let's have it a college ready program. Leah Wright: So we, what our requirements are, what. a regular school system. So we look at what DPI does and then that's what we work towards. We also have on dual enrollment with Wake Tech. So our juniors and seniors can take classes while at Wake Monarch, but they're [00:15:00] getting college credit just like they would have in a regular high school. Leah Wright: So I really tried to build it up to this is actually a better program, coming here because of what we're able to offer. And so that's what we did for our students. But Our students, not only, again, recovery academics, but it's teaching them to be a well rounded individual. What are, what's an important part of recovery? Leah Wright: Exercise is an important part of recovery. One of our amazing community partners is Neuse River CrossFit. Okay. And so our amazing coach, Christy Hagen, who you might know in recovery herself has been with us since the very beginning. So she's our coach, but many of our gym classes have turned into like recovery pep talks. Leah Wright: And that's our gym class. We go twice a week. And. Students work to the best of their ability, as long as they're trying, like not doing it as not an option, right? But doing it, but watching them even involve, evolve there, right? And the competition, friendly [00:16:00] competition, between the students and Ann. Leah Wright: We're in there as well, staff doing the best that we can as well. But another part of important part of recovery is giving back. We have integrated service learning, because we want them to know there's someone else besides yourself. And how you learn that is when you serve others. Leah Wright: We have multiple community partners that on Wednesdays, we do what we call Wednesday Wellness. We go out and we learn, so we're learning something, but then while we're there, then we're giving back. And so we keep track of those volunteer hours. So for example, we're involved currently with a bit of pleasure horse school. Leah Wright: Oh, okay. And so we go there, we split the students up because we're, grown, quite a bit. And so half of our students are learning to ride. Other half of our students are doing groundwork and things like that with the horses. And then afterwards, then they're all pitching in, cleaning water buckets, mucking stalls, doing whatever. Leah Wright: That's great. And we keep track of [00:17:00] their volunteer hours. When that ends, then we'll be involved in another organization. Learning while we're there, but also giving back. We've done a place at the table. We've been involved with Maggie Cain and her group. So the students have greeted, they have bus tables, they have, prepped food, they have done a variety of things. Leah Wright: We've done things at the food bank. We're going next week with the food bank to the state fair. Oh, wow. We're on there. collection can food drive the students help them with sorting the cans that they need. And then while we're there, then we have some fun together, that team building. Leah Wright: So we'll have a little bit of time at the fair together and eat some fair food, but we do that something on Wednesdays about the, throughout the year and relate it to our curriculum whether it's even art. We were at the summer, we were at the museum, North Carolina museum of art. doIng our Wednesday wellness music class. Leah Wright: We went to rock and roll high school in Apex. Oh, cool. That was our music class. But while we were there, students filed papers, [00:18:00] they swept, they cleaned windows. So the idea is of that, like, how good you feel when you help someone else. And it was, it's amazing to hear it. I'll never forget one of the students. Leah Wright: Came while we were doing something. He says, Lee, I gotta tell you this. He has like, when I helped him, like when I'm doing this, I feel good about myself. And I went exactly, absolutely. Exactly. But for them to realize that instead of, everything we do here is for purpose. I tell them that all the time. Leah Wright: Like you're getting credit for lots of things, but we're, there's a reason behind what we do, but for them to realize it, like they get it, Justin Mclendon: that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. So do is there certain criteria? It sounds like they obviously are struggling with substance use disorder, but are they? Justin Mclendon: Do they have to go to residential treatment first? Are there any kind of criteria that they have to meet before they can be admitted? Great Leah Wright: question. So most of these students are coming from a residential treatment center or IOP. So having some treatment in place, because again, we are not a treatment center and they need that. Leah Wright: [00:19:00] So if I have had families call and I'm like tell me a little bit about what's going on and I can share with them. I'm like, Your child, I have lots of, not lots, for the adolescent community for resources for treatment is limited, right? Absolutely. I'm able to share with them tell me about your story, what's going on right now? Leah Wright: Your child needs help that we're not going to be able to provide. Let me give you some resources. So I've put families in touch with, depending on where they are, I said here's an IRP, talk to the director, here's a treatment center, talk to the director, and then the professionals, because they are in treatment, let them. Leah Wright: Help you and decide what's best for your family. And some of these students I've worked with for over a year before that. In fact, one just recently enrolled. I've been working with his family for over a year now because of that same process. And, but once they get there, the student has to want to be there. Leah Wright: And they have to have at least 30 days in recovery. So they're [00:20:00] usually coming from a treatment background, 30 days in recovery, and willing to work a program recovery, but wanting to be there. And wanted to be, student term down, for things that we do there like random infrequent drug screenings, like there we're not, we don't do it to catch you. Leah Wright: That's not why we're doing it. We're holding it for doing it. Because you're accountable to yourself, you're accountable to your peers, your parents, your caregivers, staff, absolutely. So I have to be willing to work a program of recovery and by doing that and going through the process of a tour and then an interview, I always say, don't let that word scare you like, but it's the purpose of it is to make sure all questions are. Leah Wright: are answered and that we're a good fit for you guys as a family, but that you're a good fit for us. And based upon that information that we gather, then we enroll a family or not. But sometimes, it comes to where I'm able to have to say, look, our doors are always open. We want to help you, but we cannot [00:21:00] do recovery. Leah Wright: For your child, right? Absolutely. And so when they are willing, to work a program of recovery, you'd know that we're here and would welcome you at any time. We also have a community to protect because I can tell you that the students that are here are working on a program of recovery. Leah Wright: So we want you to, come back when you're ready and sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't, Justin Mclendon: but I guess the hope in that situation is that, like you said, you guys will be ready when Leah Wright: they are essentially. Exactly. Exactly. And our age limit like is 13 to 21. We did that purposely early on. Leah Wright: Like you didn't cut up 18. Now, because of that scenario, I remember having a discussion with the board going what if we have a senior, right? Yeah. In and out of treatment. And not going to school even though you should be by law, but maybe doing online school, not doing well, like what if, and what if they just can't get it until later? Leah Wright: Yeah. So that's why that reason behind it was 13 to 21. Okay. Come when [00:22:00] you're ready because you can't have education. If you don't have recovery. Absolutely. And, parents are like worried about, Oh, I'm getting behind or they're not where they should be. And I'm like, look, I know this sounds weird coming from an educator or, that's my profession, but I'm telling you not to worry about the education. Leah Wright: I know what we do here. I know that this, we can catch the students up and where they should be, but there's not a time limit. And they'll be ready for that when they're ready. And sometimes there's Okay. I'm like, the education will come, but I always explain if you can't have education, if you don't have recovery. Leah Wright: So let's get solid in that. And then that education will come. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Do they work at their own pace or is there are they assigned to grades? I'm curious as to what the kind of the academic Leah Wright: part of it. So we have rolling enrollment. So and modified year round. So the most that these students are ever out of school or away from us, as two weeks. Leah Wright: Okay. So our first year, a lot of it's been trial and error, [00:23:00] like what works, what doesn't work. And three weeks is just too long for these kids to, to be out. They, and as much as they don't want to admit it. structure. Yeah. They want the structure to the day and they need that and they thrive on that. Leah Wright: And so we were modified around and so they come and totally lost my train of thought. What was the question? Oh my goodness. The academics, you said. Academics. Yes. Thank you. So ninth through 12th grade and we start them off, we'll get the transcript from there. school and we'll map out a a program to where they, to catch them up. Leah Wright: Cause most of the students are behind to catch them up and then a plan to graduate. And with students being ninth through 12th grade, they're all over the place. So that was something we put a lot. A thought into early on is how are we going to meet the needs of these students 9th through 12th grade when having multiple teachers like hiring a teacher to teach history for one student like that just financially [00:24:00] doesn't even make sense, right? Leah Wright: So we looked at various online programs and had an evaluation, excuse me, from Wake County. Teachers said, if you could evaluate these various programs based on the content area, based on the curriculum, what's gonna be best, what online program will be best in your opinion? . And so from that, we went with a particular, it's called Edmentum EdOptions, online education platform taught by North Carolina certified teachers. Leah Wright: And then we have two teachers there. So we have a full time North Carolina certified teacher and a part time North Carolina certified teacher. And it's the only way, too, that we could offer accredited classes. So again, looking. Into the future, right? We didn't want one of our students to be in a situation where that particular college, if that's what they chose to do, said these classes aren't accredited, you're not, you can't come here or you need to go do this. Leah Wright: We didn't want to put the student in that position. So that was another reason that we [00:25:00] went with this particular program to be accredited in that way. And so our teacher sits down, maps out a program with them, and we started them with two classes. And then we, the teachers gauge, some of these, they're behind. Leah Wright: A lot of the students are difficulty focusing or, because there's usually like a mental health component there too as well. And so they go at their own pace. We want them to be successful. And so we also tell parents that oh, I want them to do honors, AP, I'm like, let's start with this. And let's see how your child handles it. We want them to be successful. We want to challenge them, but we want them to be successful, right? And sometimes that is slow because most of the school experiences with these students have not been good. They've been suspended, expelled. And they hate school, they don't like school. Leah Wright: They like the idea of our school because, it's cool. They realize they're going to do academic work. They just don't realize that, when they're not doing it yet. So when they [00:26:00] know like our expectations are here but they're attainable, but we're going to work at your own pace. We want you to be successful. Leah Wright: And it's, that's another transformation. That's amazing to see. And the praise of Oh my God, I did it. Like I got an A exactly, you can do it again. And then many times they're like, they can handle the rigor. And so they want more challenging. So then we're able to add another class and then it is gone. Leah Wright: And yeah, we got students on honors classes. We have students that are taking weight tech classes. So it's a process, it's like I tell parents, you may have. 20 plus things you want your child to do better, but let's do one thing at a time. Yeah, absolutely You know, are they in recovery check? Leah Wright: Yeah, are they in school check? Are they working at on academics check like one thing at a time, you know If you want them to take you know, an honors class, let's get them there. We have the time and Justin Mclendon: especially like you mentioned, I would imagine a lot of those A lot of those kids do have, they're coming from situations where they weren't doing well in school. Justin Mclendon: Very similar to [00:27:00] what you said. And I would assume it probably takes some of that to build up that confidence. It's just, just small bits of success for them to be able to start to realize that they can do some of this, right? Leah Wright: Yeah. Yeah. It was when one of our students came, had, who had not. Leah Wright: been successful. It just really had a bad attitude towards school, doing school work, but was willing to be there, knew they had to do school, this particular strategy school made an A, came down like high five, Leo, guess what? And so it's again, confidence, building that confidence of yeah, you can do anything you set your mind to do. Leah Wright: Your past does not define you. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? Look what you're doing now. How awesome is that? And building their confidence up to where okay, I can do that. I can be successful. That's fantastic. I can go to college if that's what I choose to do. That's amazing. Leah Wright: It's like I said, it's a transformation of the whole child. Not just recovery. Yes, this is a safe and supportive environment, but there are just so many other things that we're, working on that is not, it's just [00:28:00] like subtle, right? Building their confidence. But when I tell you like the transformation, like the student that they came in to where they are now, especially if we've had them. Leah Wright: Some students we've had, a couple of years right now. That's great. And to see them what they were to where they are now is. Yeah, it's incredible. And it's healing, for me, like I said. Oh, I can imagine Justin Mclendon: healing. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah That is amazing. So three years now you three years. Justin Mclendon: That's amazing Leah Wright: Yeah, how to start a waiting list like we're growing out of room, right? I mean we're we are just like the other day, like every room was full and I needed to have a private conversation. I'm like, okay I'll go into a room over here, that that's part of the churches that's not supposed to, not supposed to use, but there's nowhere else to go. Leah Wright: Yeah. So there's been a few situations I've had to text going, sorry, had to use the room, which is fine, right? But but yeah it's a, I guess a good problem now. Yeah, Justin Mclendon: sure. It shows that there's a need and you guys are working to fill it, right? Leah Wright: Yeah. Which is great. Leah Wright: And the students are bringing other students. That's [00:29:00] amazing. In and out. And so that's your best kind of referral is when, who's actually living the program, of the students and the parents that they're sharing with other families about this program. So then, okay, I'm gonna call and get some more information and it just goes from there. Leah Wright: That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: I love that. So are you guys thinking about other locations or things like that in the future or Leah Wright: expanding? We're the eyes are open, let's put it that way. The eyes are open and just actually had a conversation this morning, just be on the lookout, we can make it work by growing, a little bit more, but again, That needs staff. Leah Wright: So that's where, it's not just location is why we have a waiting list. Really the main reason is that we're at a point where we need to hire more staff. Okay. And we're just in a position that we need to do some other things, as well, because, the majority of our budget we have to fundraise. Leah Wright: Now, and so that can be, that's challenging. We have a gala for recovery coming up on November 4th at McGregor Downs Country Club, so that's our largest fundraiser. We're going to [00:30:00] reevaluate after that fundraiser and see where we are, that's great. We want to continue to grow because the need is great. Leah Wright: The need is great and, any opportunity that I can talk about the school. So thank you again for giving me this opportunity or go to businesses and, do a short presentation of what is a recovery high school opportunities like the international overdose awareness day for the fifth year now was able to speak and the students were able to speak and share. Leah Wright: So opportunities like that just to get the word out. Even if it's just for awareness, of this is what a recovery high school. Looks like, right? Because there truly needs to be a recovery high school in every county and state. Honestly. Justin Mclendon: That's what I'm thinking as we're sitting here talking is that, thank goodness, right? Justin Mclendon: That you guys are here and that we have that, that resource here locally. But, to your point, I could see where this would be valuable. Literally everywhere. Yeah, Leah Wright: everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, even the mental health. Even if it was just that recovery, maybe if it was the mental health, just that these kids need that. Leah Wright: That one on one, attention, but also the flexibility, [00:31:00] that, Hey, I can take a break from academics and go talk to recovery coach, or I can take a break and, say, Hey, can I come over here and, color, draw, whatever, take a mental health break, yes, you can and come back to it. Leah Wright: And so we have the flexibility to do that because we meet the students where they are. Meet the families where they are, and we go from there. And each of the staff members looks at it at a different lens, recovery coaches and recovery knows the walk, right? And so he's able to really relate to the students and students relating to him. Leah Wright: And then even though I'm not personally, in recovery, but I am as a family member. I'm able to look at it from that lens as well. And then our staff has been touched by addiction in one way or the other. We've all been touched by it just differently. And we're all be able to just give our own input as well. Leah Wright: And very much involved in the program. To make this really truly work to it also take the staff of being approachable, you know That's why I mentioned Leah like [00:32:00] we're not by our last names like it's breaking down the barriers, right? Leah, Ian first names being approachable, but also Showing them that we can be vulnerable to Like we're staff as part of the check ins in the morning if it's on a topic. Leah Wright: I mean they've seen us cry You know, except Ian. Ian is the only one, which we laugh about it, but totally, I give him a hard time about that. But no, all of us have cried because if we're asking the student to be vulnerable about difficult situations in their life and we aren't, like, what does that show them? Leah Wright: Yeah. So when we break down those barriers and show them like, yeah, we've been through trauma too, right? We've been through some hard things in our life too, but. This is what we did. This is how we overcame it, right? And you can too, I remember even recently I was talking about purpose right and what they want to do and I'm like What is it? Leah Wright: What is my [00:33:00] purpose in life, and so I was able to shine The light on it going on like i'm decades Like older than you sure. I said i'll be honest with you. I was in Like I love teaching, right? I loved being in the classroom, but I was probably 25 years. I remember having this thought 25 years in, right? Leah Wright: Of teaching and remember distinctly thinking, and this was before, right? This is before I even thought about recovery. What's my purpose? Is this what I'm supposed to do with the rest of my life? Like when I retire, like what am I supposed to do? I'm not teaching. I'm fairly young, right? What's my purpose in life? Leah Wright: So by sharing with a student I was in even a career still trying to figure out my purpose. Hands down. Do I know my purpose now? Absolutely. I'm passionate about what I'm doing. That's great. But I can also look back over my entire life. of going, of things that have helped me get to where I am now, right? Leah Wright: And [00:34:00] so my purpose may not come until like years later, right? And that's okay. Do something that you love, right? And if you're in a, yes, this is my job. But if you're in a position where it doesn't feel like a job, like you're showing up at work every day that doesn't feel like work, like you, that's your purpose. Leah Wright: There you go. I like that. So that's what we're able to bring to it. So it's a collective experience, and then the kids bring in. Their own experiences and helping others and that's an amazing thing to see because again, recovery is best in community. Absolutely. So when you see another peer help another peer and it's it's powerful or lead a group, it's powerful to see. Leah Wright: And I can Justin Mclendon: imagine that is such a big part of it because I would assume the students and that's got to be a big part of it. Leah Wright: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes specially. if We have a student that we know they're really good at art, or they're really good [00:35:00] at, whatever else we can connect students and, or work on hey, can you... Leah Wright: Talk to the student a little bit more. I think if maybe if you sat down and showed him a few things or showed her a few things like I think you'd really be able to help them, and sometimes these kids don't look at themselves as leaders, but then when you're able to point down like you are leading look what you did, look, you did this, that is leadership. Leah Wright: So getting them to look at themselves as cause a lot of them are really hard, that, that's, that There's a lot, been a lot of things that they've been having to work through that where they haven't had a very positive Self image about themselves and so being able to turn that around of going look When I know you don't see this now, but when I look at you, like I see so much potential and this, look at your gear, good at this. Leah Wright: And you're good at this. It's hard for them to see that. But again, all what you're doing is just planting the seeds, that.[00:36:00] Hopefully over time, and that's another reason too behind community partners is them being around other adults that are, positive role models for them that are coming from different careers. Leah Wright: Yeah. Some in recovery, some are not, right? But sharing their life experiences to... To help these kids to plant seeds, to, help them see that what we see that we're hoping that we're going to get to the point like they see that within themselves. And it just takes time. It takes time to build that within them, Justin Mclendon: that's amazing. Yeah. Have you had anybody graduate and move on to Leah Wright: the next step? Yes. We had our first formal graduation this past June. Had a graduate. We've had another senior graduate actually in August. That's awesome. And from that, we're developing again, looking at that and going, okay, we want them to work at their own pace, right? Leah Wright: But we can't do like multiple graduations like all throughout the year. Again, like reaching out to the associated recovery high [00:37:00] schools, other recovery high schools. So how have you done your program and getting their feedback, which is how we've developed ours. Our model is based on. Leah Wright: other successful recovery high schools. Absolutely. So reaching out to them and going, how have you handled this? And most recovery high schools are part of their school system. So that's been a little bit harder to, to relate to that. But what we and staff came up with is that most recovery high schools, like we'll have one graduation ceremony, right? Leah Wright: So that we set, we're going to have one formal graduation ceremony in June. But. If we can set up our students to finish their WMA classes in the fall of their senior year. Get enrolled in Wake Tech. So they're taking a college class, they're earning college credit, and several of the classes you can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. Leah Wright: So if they, take a, college credit, then it could also count as one of their high school credits, right? So we try to set that up best the way you can. But ideally, if we can set [00:38:00] up a senior to be done with their WMA classes and that December finish up a weight tech class, then we have our break, right? Leah Wright: Come back after, holiday break in January. They would come to check in the morning they would do their academic classes, which now would be all weight tech classes because they would, re enroll for the spring. Okay. Then they leave around 1130 and go to an internship of a career choice that we've helped them figure out with as part of our life skills block. Leah Wright: That's great. So that's what we just finished up with life skills, did a whole lot of things with like career building and looking at like your personality. Like these are the characteristics that would be really good in this, these particular fields and really have them look at research that particular job. Leah Wright: So have an area of interest. So that's been another involvement of searching out community partners, which we still need, help and bright, great of like you're interested in interior design. All right, let me go see if I can [00:39:00] find a community partner that would be interested in doing something like this. Leah Wright: And this actually just happened recently. Didn't know this particular she has a community partner now, right? But it was like a friend from a, through a friend and said, and would love something, interior design, he's very artistic, loves to do things like that, what do you think? Leah Wright: And so I ended up getting connected. to this particular, organization and talk with the owner and said, Hey, we haven't done this before. But this is what it, what we want it to look like. Would you be open? And so she was came in, talk with a student. And when I tell you Like the sparkle in his eye. Leah Wright: Yeah, that's cool. And that, to see them talk back and forth, oh, this is what I did and this is what you do. And like the conversations that I'm I'm like that's cool. Sitting back in my head going, this is cool . That's awesome to see. Yeah. And so hopefully he's gonna be doing that, in the spring with her. Leah Wright: So that's what we like to do with this premise behind it. [00:40:00] We are working really hard on Yes. Recovery education. But it's a scary world out there, so how can we slowly transition them in before they get that diploma? And so this was a great way to go, Hey, they're here for recovery support. Leah Wright: They're doing their academics, but then they, as a senior, the big deal, leave campus. Go to a career, whatever that internship looks like and then when we do have the graduation in June Like they've been out of they've been connected to WMA but half of their day They're also like in the real world, right? Leah Wright: Whatever that looks like for them So that is a program that we're developing As we you know as we speak, you know as a need has arised, but that's what we want to do. I Justin Mclendon: mean, that's huge, being able to get some, internship. I think as we know, colleges are just becoming much more competitive and things like that. Justin Mclendon: Just internships in general I think put you give [00:41:00] you a good, leg up there. But also just that, on the job training type experience Yeah. And being able to just see what it's like being in a work environment. That's just so valuable. Yeah, Leah Wright: exactly. That's amazing. Leah Wright: Exactly. So we're still working out the details, . But to be able to go out and shadow something and this is what we say. You may get into that and think that I don't want to do anything like this, right? But then guess what you haven't lost like you're not two years into a degree if that's what you choose right and just say I Don't want to do this and now you do a complete, degree change And now I've added more time like if you can figure that out or we can help maybe help you figure that out now You're not losing anything all you've done is just gain experience and still earn college credit, still on track to get your diploma as originally, right? Leah Wright: But now you've gained something else. And and that's what we're hoping to do. That's amazing. Now, if we have a student come in and say, I want to be an astrophysicist, then that might be a little bit more challenging. [00:42:00] I'm like, I was trying to keep it within this realm, but you know what, would I go out and try to, I'm like, you know what, if that's what you want to do, let me. Leah Wright: Let me see what I can find out. Yeah, absolutely. Who knows, so Justin Mclendon: I'll say, and we can talk a little bit more offline about this, but as you're saying that we would be happy to support any way that we could too. If there was somebody that needed an internship or something like that, that maybe was interested in like the mental health or the substance abuse field, we would be happy. Justin Mclendon: Guess Leah Wright: what? I absolutely have a student which had She wants to be a nurse, but she also wants to work in treatment. We should talk about that. Let's talk about that. Yeah. And we're close. That's great. Yeah. Okay. I'm excited. I'm excited. You never know, right? Justin Mclendon: You never know. Yeah. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love, we would love to support Leah Wright: that. Absolutely. All right. That offline, we will, we'll talk and develop this together, right? Yeah. I love it. Because when it, something works out, I know that there'll be other students that will come up and since we're not planning on going anywhere, right? Leah Wright: Yeah, absolutely. Don't be another nurse [00:43:00] or whatever, or doesn't even have to be a nurse, could be something else. There are different ways they can, even if it's the business side. Yeah, 100%. How do you run a business? How do you start a business? Yeah. There's so many different angles that we can look, but that's the value of community partners because without the community helping us, build, this, I don't know where we would be. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah. Justin Mclendon: Leah, I really appreciate you coming in. I do always like to end these, I'm developing a little bit of a theme here with this, but, or a pattern, should I say? I like to wrap these up with, so the main reason for the podcast is, for to provide You know, education resources for like families or anybody that's struggling their self with a, with an addiction or mental health issue. Justin Mclendon: Obviously some professionals watch it as well. But if you could leave a potential family member or a potential client or somebody that's struggling with kind of a nugget or something that you wish that they could walk away with, what would that thing be? Leah Wright: Here's what I consistently find, including myself, right? Leah Wright: Families forget. [00:44:00] They get so wrapped up and their loved one, right? That's struggling. They forget about themselves. So even if it's putting out like no one can do recovery for you, right? You got to do it for yourself. You got to want to do it. Don't do recovery for somebody else, right? Do it for yourself. Leah Wright: And that look that could be The whole family and that you can't do it for someone else, but find the resources, find somebody who gets you because, unless you've walked in these shoes, it's very hard. To understand, what someone's going through unless they've experienced it, even though we all have different journeys. Leah Wright: So that would probably be my best thing is you do need recovery and do whatever you can to find that support of what that journey looks like for you, right? There's no set path. It's perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Justin Mclendon: Yes. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming to chat with us and look forward to chatting with you again soon. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. Leah Wright: Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Bye.[00:45:00]

Join us in this compelling episode as we sit down with Kelli Underwood, an esteemed psychotherapist and owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Through her vast experience and commitment to lifelong learning, Kelli shares profound insights on trust, healing, and the transformative power of therapy. Discover the importance of building rapport, accessing inner wisdom, and creating a safe space for clients to embark on their healing journey. < Back to Episodes Embracing Psychotherapy with Kelli Underwood 53:26 min | Kelli Underwood | Finding New Waters Join us in this compelling episode as we sit down with Kelli Underwood, an esteemed psychotherapist and owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Through her vast experience and commitment to lifelong learning, Kelli shares profound insights on trust, healing, and the transformative power of therapy. Discover the importance of building rapport, accessing inner wisdom, and creating a safe space for clients to embark on their healing journey. This conversation will leave you inspired and empowered to trust yourself and embrace transformative therapy. Subscribe "I think the greatest gift I can give a client is the ability for them to trust themselves better, to trust their wisdom, their knowingness, and to know that they have what they need inside." -Kelli Underwood Podcast Transcript #015 Kelli Underwood Kelli Underwood: [00:00:00] I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying to expand my toolbox. I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what one client. Kelli Underwood: We will be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what? The three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durge and I am the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved ones struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined here today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Kelly Underwood. In 2013, Kelly moved to Durham, North Carolina and launched her own business to be aligned. Graham Doerge: Today she has a thriving psychotherapy practice and continues to train and consult with school districts, counselors, agents, agencies, and companies. Kelly has been training therapists in transformative insight imagery, T I I, since 2000, and is the sole owner, owner of transformative insight imagery in all facets of her business. Graham Doerge: Kelly embraces diversity and is a passionate ally to all who [00:02:00] experience discrimination and prejudice. Thank you very much for being with us today, Kelly, it's a, a pleasure to have you here. Thank Kelli Underwood: you so much for having me. I am just thrilled to be with both of you. Absolutely. Graham Doerge: Absolutely. So I love starting, uh, these podcasts off, obviously, uh, getting our audience to know our guests a little bit better. Graham Doerge: Yep. And I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into this work and, and just how, what drove you to enter the behavioral health field. Kelli Underwood: Sure. Would love to tell you that story. Um, well, ever since I was a kid, I was sort of the friend that everybody would come to. Mm-hmm. To talk about whatever was stressing them. Kelli Underwood: And so I got a lot of feedback growing up that I was a good listener, that I should work with people, that I should be in a helping profession. So that sort of always had me thinking I would do something with people in a helping profession. Right, right. Then when I was a senior, I was really struggling as a senior in high school and I ended up advocating for myself with my family. Kelli Underwood: To [00:03:00] go and see my own mental health counselor Wow. To help me. And that was a life-changing experience. To have a counselor, really, for the first time in my life, I felt really listened to, validated, seen her without judgment accepted for what I was going through and how I felt, even though I was just a teenager. Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. And the, the presence of a supportive and safe person. I was, I remember sitting in a session early on with this therapist and saying, I'm gonna do what you do. Yeah. For a living, right? This is, this is what I wanna do. Right? And then the third thing that really just made it clear what kind of degree I would get and where I would go next was in undergraduate school I signed up for an intro to social work class. Kelli Underwood: Mm. And I still remember the first day in the class. Great teacher and I just, they were talking about the values and the ethics and the knowledge and all the different [00:04:00] things that social workers can do, and I was like, this is me, right? This is it. Yeah. This is, this is my life path. Yeah. Yeah. So that was how it Graham Doerge: unfolded. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And it's, it's always amazing to me how people get into this work. And obviously, you know, a lot of us have had our own struggles and, and difficulties and come out the other side and then, you know, made it our career and our life. And that was kind of my story. Um, and, you know, but I, I do think that, you know, I, I, similar to you in a lot of ways, there was, you know, certain guys along the way in my journey that I just saw and, and you know, that were, um, walking the walk, right? Graham Doerge: Yes. And I was like, man, if I can, you know, Be like those guys. I mean, what an amazing way to make a career, you know, helping people, saving lives and all that. So, I mean, it's, it really is incredible work. Um, and, and so, um, just so humble to be able to do it. Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. I am right there with you on that. I feel like I tell people all the time, this is sacred work. Kelli Underwood: It's sacred. We are on the [00:05:00] front lines trying to really impact people in a positive way. Mm. And. Yeah. It's really meaningful and purposeful work. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To witness somebody's journey, to be beside them in their roughest times and watch them rise out of it is just such an honor to me. Yeah. Like truly. Kelli Underwood: Yep, Dr. Harold Hong: a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So in, in your work, it began with having this really positive experience with a therapist? Yeah, and uh, what I have run into, like, I do therapy as well, um, and I do a lot of medication management and, and I have a lot of clients that are there for meds, but they have a therapist and they're not really sure if it's a good therapist. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Um, they, they go every week, it's fine. Um, but they've been going every week for a year or three years or 10 years and. They're not really sure if this is what they need. They just know that it's helpful and they go, yeah. But I think a lot of [00:06:00] people would be interested to know what is a good therapeutic relationship or what does good therapy look like? Dr. Harold Hong: And you know, I think everyone has a different answer to that question and different answers resonate with different people. So I'm, I'm always interested to hear from our guests, uh, to the benefit of our audience. In your experience, what is a good therapeutic relationship look like? Kelli Underwood: Yes, I, I'm really happy you asked this question and it's really interesting timing because I spent the day yesterday online training folks with the topic of how to be more effective in psychotherapy. Kelli Underwood: And the two major points I invited people to focus on as therapists is one, we know from the research that what clients remember about our sessions. Long term is how they felt in our presence. Hmm. How they felt in our presence. Hmm. We know that rapport and empathy and the [00:07:00] connection are the key, and if somebody is not feeling connected with me, I'm a big believer they should as a customer. Kelli Underwood: Seeking mental health services, they should be able to have the experience of a therapist, that they really have enough connection to, enough safety, enough trust, mm-hmm. And enough rapport that they then can become willing to be vulnerable enough. To do the work. Right. So I think the rapport and the ability to be a real person with professional boundaries, to be genuine, to really practice deep listening and being who you are in your own personality, but, but bringing a conversation. Kelli Underwood: I'm a real person. I get a lot of feedback from folks I've supervised. Interns and staff, [00:08:00] um, that they've been told in other supervisions or trainings or even their education that they have to be really kind of constricted in this session. And I just don't think that's real. I, I work in the field of trauma and I have for 25 years, and people want to feel a real person in front of them, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. A real person who really cares, who's not giving them a bunch of baloney, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that's the first piece. The second piece is, do you have tools, competencies, right. To help the person, right. With what they're coming to you for. Right. Right. And what clients have told me is, I appreciate that you really are beside me. Kelli Underwood: You really care about me. You don't have to know everything, but I also appreciate that you give me tools, strategies, you [00:09:00] help me to think about things differently and try new things, and I am getting better. Mm-hmm. Because you're teaching me things I didn't know before. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of therapists miss the boat on the fact that they are a teacher. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. Whether you're cognitive, behavioral solution focused, you know, internal family systems, art therapy, it doesn't matter what your technique is, find something that's aligned with you mm-hmm. That you're good at, and then have a menu of options for people. Right. And the other thing I said yesterday in this training is we need to be mindful as therapists that we're not asking people to come to our comfort zone. Kelli Underwood: We need to be where the client is and join their comfort zone. Right. Right, right. Yeah. So I think all of those things are important in what you're saying. Graham Doerge: And what kinda questions would, would you pose to families or, or, uh, tell them to ask, uh, a potential therapist, you know, when they're trying to find a good fit. Graham Doerge: Right. And right. Is there [00:10:00] anything specific that you can Kelli Underwood: lean on? I actually, often, when I can't take referrals, I will send people an email with some resources to do some research. And to feel more empowered and educated in what they are looking for and what is important to them without making assumptions about what that might be. Kelli Underwood: But you know, being able to say some very specific things about, here are the things I want. As outcomes. Mm-hmm. Um, here are the kind, here's what I think I would do better with. So I ask clients upfront, like, if you've had a past therapy experience, what did you like and what didn't really work for you? Kelli Underwood: Right. Mm-hmm. And then I'm honest about where I align with that and whether there's someone else who might be a better fit. Right. Right. Um, so I really think people should know. To, you know, they're not gonna know all the different techniques, but if, for example, they're reaching out to me for trauma, I'm gonna let them know we have all [00:11:00] these things now available. Kelli Underwood: You might wanna research what is. Mdr. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. Mm-hmm. You might wanna also look at some of the somatic centered psychotherapies, and then I'll tell them a little bit about what that is. We have, I was trained in somatic experiencing. We have sensory motor, we have all kinds of other things evolving now, like A E D P and, you know, lots of attachment based. Kelli Underwood: Therapies for parents with, with young kids. Mm-hmm. So I'll give them a list of, here's some things for you to maybe look into and see which ones of the, these sound like they might be helpful. Right. And then ask if the person is trained in any of these, ask what kinds of techniques they use and then go and look those up. Kelli Underwood: And does that feel like a good fit for me? Yeah. Right. Ask how. What their philosophy is. Yeah. If they are an attachment based therapist, if they value the relationship or they're more of a short term concrete, you know, there's no right or wrong here, but it [00:12:00] has to be the right fit for the person. And the client doesn't always know what they need. Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's okay too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I always tell clients, think of yourself as a customer. You have the right to choose a product that feels right Graham Doerge: for you. Yeah, right. A hundred percent. Right. And I even think. We do that really well here too, as well. And I think any good program hopefully does, um, where, you know, we get super granular on, you know, our aftercare planning and, you know, we're oftentimes looking at, you know, yes, this is gonna be a good fit program wise. Graham Doerge: But, you know, maybe more so who on the therapeutic team is gonna be a good fit with this specific client, right? Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Um, which is, you know, not always done. And, and listen, we can't do it a hundred percent of the time. Sure. Um, but we really, really do try to take that into account and, because I think that, you know, unfortunately a lot of the time we're kind of throwing darts at a dart board hoping that, you know, yes, this is a great program, but. Graham Doerge: Maybe you get set up with, you know, or your primary therapist is, you know, maybe they're very [00:13:00] green or just not a good connection. Right. It's not a good fit for in some way. Um, and that can really give you a very different experience than if you, you know, had somebody that you had a good fit with. Right, right. Graham Doerge: So I think it's so important, um, to look at those pieces. I love that you do Kelli Underwood: that. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you that you all do that here at New Waters. Yeah, because it's just really essential. So the fact that you really break it down to who's the right fit on multiple levels, I think is really gonna help people have a better experience. Kelli Underwood: And that's what we all want. That's what we're all in this for, is to help and Graham Doerge: listen, help people listen, is this is not a cheap endeavor, right. For families. No. And you don't wanna have, have to do this thing multiple times. Right. That, that's right. And so if we can kind of get through this and, and, and that can be the difference between a good experience and a bad experience in might. Graham Doerge: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Um, Kelli Underwood: it's important. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I even go so far when I have a, a potential teenage client. Yeah. Of asking the parent to please give their teenager choice. Yeah. To [00:14:00] please tell the teenager that they get to do a mutual interview with me. Right. And they get to ask questions and they get to, you know, let them, let them interview at least two different therapists and have some say Yeah. Kelli Underwood: In who they're gonna do this journey with. Right, Dr. Harold Hong: right. I think that's a key part of the good therapeutic relationships is like without safety. Yes. You can't be vulnerable. And I think it's, it's out there in the, like with the work that Bene Brown has done. Yes. The word vulnerability so, so popular. It's almost become like a, like a virtue by itself. Dr. Harold Hong: But I, I do a lot of work with clients and tell them, you know what, there's, there's a right way to be vulnerable and a wrong way to be vulnerable. Right. And vulnerability for vulnerability's sake is actually dangerous. Yes. And a big part of your recovery is learning how to be safe. Yes. Right? Yes. So, um, The, the essence of safety in therapy is, is consent, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Like you have the right to pass. Yes. Um, here's what we're gonna do. Here's how we're gonna do it. Do you want to go [00:15:00] on this journey together for this work today? And I think if, if there's no treatment plan, that, that's to me is a big red flag. Uh, if they're not saying, here's what we'll do, here's how we'll do it. Dr. Harold Hong: If someone can't put that into words or some type of representation for you, you're, you're really trusting. In, in one faith that this is gonna work out. Right. Um, and it doesn't have to be that way. I think it really should be like very, very transparent, like on the table for everyone to see. Um, so a big part, I'm a big advocate of is there treatment plan? Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. And a big and big part of safety. I love this thing you're doing with the, the adolescents is they have the right to pass or they have the right to decide. Yes. That's huge. Um, but I, I'm also really interested in hearing about the tools part cuz I think that's, Tremendous. And a lot of us are still in this old school therapy where we're gonna do this Freudian. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm mm-hmm. Just, just kind of sit back and be the blank slate and, [00:16:00] and you express yourself and suddenly you'll realize this epiphany about yourself. Yeah. Um, but it's, I, I can't say it's, it really happens and there's a reason why. A lot of psychodynamic people are in session three days a week for three to five years. Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. Um, yes. Uh, but if, if people are getting the tools, I think that is so interesting cuz a lot of people don't even know that you can go and work with a therapist to get tools. Right. That will change your life. Right. Like, can you tell us about the tools that you've helped your clients with? Sure. Kelli Underwood: Well, I am a big believer in lifelong learning, so I'm always trying. To expand my toolbox, I don't think we should ever be done because the field of psychotherapy is constantly evolving, right? So I will say I am very eclectic and very integrative, and I really try to offer a variety of options because what [00:17:00] one client. Kelli Underwood: We'll be drawn to and what will work for them to feel safe enough is not the same as the next client. Mm-hmm. And so, you know what, the three of us would probably have different experiences of what feels safe. Right? Right. Um, so some of the tools that I lean into, well, the foundational one for me for. 20 some years has been transformative insight imagery. Kelli Underwood: Um, and I also have, I think my practice has changed significantly as the neuroscience has really come out about how to bring the body and the nervous system mm-hmm. Into treatment. And so I definitely. Access Somatic Experiencing and Steven Porges Polyvagal Theory and Deb Dana. I really love a lot of her exercises about helping clients experience the different states of their being and helping them be able to more fluidly regulate and move through them. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Um, and the T II actually [00:18:00] has a component of really helping folks with that. I think mindfulness is valuable, but I think a lot of times, um, Well-intentioned therapists. We sometimes misstep with mindfulness and with traumatized folks it can be triggering if we're asking them to get really go into themselves before they're resourced and right. Kelli Underwood: Have enough resources and regulation. To go in with mindfulness. Mm. Um, because getting still, or getting quiet or meditating can also be really unsafe for some people. Mm. Mm-hmm. So, I think all of these things have to be catered to the person in front of you. I, I definitely value cognitive therapy. You know, working with who's narrating the story of the moment with clients, I have found very valuable. Kelli Underwood: T i I also has a, a big piece when we go into the more deeper eight step process of. Parts work, and I think that parts work. I know a lot of people are getting trained in internal family systems, but this [00:19:00] idea that we all have many facets to our personality, many parts, and in the world of trauma, I find this is one of the more powerful interventions that I see sustainable change in is when people can, whether they use art or the imagery or even more psychodrama practices to really. Kelli Underwood: Deeply access and connect like. That 10 year old self that went through that trauma and now they are taking care of those younger parts that did not get what they needed. I found that to be really powerful. Mm-hmm. Wow. Uh, so I do a lot of nervous system regulation kinds of things. I'm very experiential. Kelli Underwood: Um, I find that, and I'm very relational and attachment. Lens focused in everything I do, but I'm always, you know, I'm always incorporating, like Dr. Dan Siegel and um, Bruce Perry, and there's just lots of people that I really value. Mm-hmm. Um, his new book with Oprah, you know [00:20:00] what happened, right. To you is excellent. Kelli Underwood: Um, I was also trained by Steve Terrell and Kathy Kane in nervous system work. Um, they have a great book called Nurturing Resilience, so I use a lot of their techniques. So I really am fairly eclectic and I really have learned you have to pace the order of your interventions in the relationship. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: And in the context of where you are with that client and what they are ready for. Mm-hmm. Readiness is important. Yeah. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. I'm super ex, I mean, you covered a ton of ground. Yes. And, uh, I, I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to, to go through this journey, like maybe kind of step by step. Dr. Harold Hong: And so I, I, I think it's helpful to start with trauma because Yeah, just like, how do we think about it? We have, we have a lot of people. Who think, you know, trauma is something horrific. Yes. That happened to you. Yes. Right. But, but therein lies this, this big [00:21:00] issue because in the big world trauma, there are things that are truly horrific and there are things that are very subtle. Dr. Harold Hong: Yes. Right. And not obviously traumatic and. Yeah. For some reason they just show up in your office and they, they say, I, you know, something's just not right. Yeah. Right. And so, I dunno if, if we could start there Yes. And see like how you would, how you would open up the conversation with them about trauma and how you would layer in the nervous system integration work or the, the other tools you're using. Kelli Underwood: Well, I'm a big believer that in trauma we always have some varying levels of feeling disconnected. I. Out of control and powerless. Mm-hmm. So I am really vigilant that I may, if I messed up, accidentally reenact some part of that with a client. So I am a huge, adamant proponent of collaboration choice. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. And [00:22:00] making sure clients feel like they have a voice with me. Mm-hmm. Because that runs contrary to trauma. Yeah. Always. Mm-hmm. If you have a voice, you feel heard, I am here beside you, but you get to choose what's best for you. So I like to start even with the idea of trauma with. Do, what do they think has been traumatic in their life? Kelli Underwood: Hmm. You know, we start where they are with their definition over time, with the psychoeducation and whatnot. They might start to go, oh, I think I had other traumatic experiences that I didn't previously identify as that. Hmm. So, I like the definition that, you know, one of my teachers, Peter Levi Levine uses, um, from somatic experiencing. Kelli Underwood: He says, trauma is anything that overwhelms. Your resources for coping. Mm. Now the key there is we all have different resources for coping, right? With the same event, right? So that trauma is not actually defined by, defined by the event. So, Mm. Right. It's defined by the [00:23:00] effect. So I think that's the first eye-opening thing for a lot of folks. Kelli Underwood: Wait, so I lived in a home where my parent was an alcoholic and they, they were sort of sometimes physically scary or violent. Um, so. But you may have multiple children in that home who were impacted very differently, right? Yep. Right. And that's because we all have different resiliency, different temperaments, personalities, resources, right? Kelli Underwood: So I love that Peter explains that. You know what happens in trauma is that something overwhelms our resources for coping and then it gets stuck. Mm. Right. It gets stuck in our brain. Mm-hmm. But it also really gets stuck in our nervous system and our body. Mm-hmm. And we don't get it moved through the system. Kelli Underwood: So that's where a lot of these body-centered techniques are helping people to move it. Into a new place. Mm-hmm. Sort of like a train that's [00:24:00] derailed and you're getting it back on the tracks and moving it down to the next station. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So, uh, you, you talked about feeling overwhelmed. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And then you also talked about feeling powerless, disconnected. Yes. And what's, what's the connection between those two points in time of two, how someone's Kelli Underwood: doing the two, which two Dr. Harold Hong: points. The moment of feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Or repeatedly feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Uh, beyond like stress beyond your capabilities, right. Dr. Harold Hong: And then showing up as an adult feeling disconnected, disempowered, yes. Frustrated. Kelli Underwood: Well, I mean, I think the truth is, and there are greater experts out there than me, but the truth is, These patterns get imprinted. Right? The overwhelmed. And so as a kid, you know, maybe you learned to just shut down and hide. Kelli Underwood: Or maybe you learned to, um, you know, you had a very intense [00:25:00] freeze response. Dissociation became your friend. Yeah. To leave something that was difficult and we are all brilliant. In our systems of protection. Yep. And so the first thing I want clients to understand is this isn't bad. Right. This is actually fantastic and brilliant that you know how to dissociate that you know how to shut down and disappear. Kelli Underwood: That you know how to go into fight response. Yeah. To protect all of your littles. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. This is great that you have these, we all have this internal alarm system that I, you know, our neuroception is constantly scanning. Mm. Am I safe right now? Is this dangerous? Is this life threatening or is this safe? Kelli Underwood: Right? And because our history is with us, I might be sitting here feeling like, this feels pretty freaking scary to me right now, to be sitting here with you all, and you might be over here going, this is great. Yeah, I feel really relaxed. Graham Doerge: Right. And, and everybody's response can be so [00:26:00] different. Right. And I think that that, like that obviously you talk about walking into a room, reading the room, that hyper awareness. Graham Doerge: Yes. Right? Yes. And where, you know, that can actually be kind of a positive thing for some, like, you know, my ability to walk into a room and read a room like that Yes. You know, can be a real advantage in a lot of times. Yes. You Kelli Underwood: know, all of these things are assets and sometimes. They harm us or our relationships. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the way I explain it to my clients is what we wanna do in therapy is help you grow your awareness of when it's helpful and when it's overactive. Mm-hmm. So I use the analogy of when I moved into my home and I had my alarm system installed. Yeah. The first couple months were treacherous because apparently the gentleman who. Kelli Underwood: Installed it, put it on too sensitive of a setting Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. And so when a bird would hit the window, unfortunately, or. There was construction behind the woods of [00:27:00] my house, and it was vibrating. The alarm was going off. Wow. And the cops were coming to my house. Wow. Uhhuh. Um, which made me feel good that they came. Kelli Underwood: Right. But this was problematic. Mm-hmm. This is a perfect analogy for pe, post-traumatic stress disorder. Right, right. Our alarm is going off all the time. Yeah. But it's not really. Something happening now, right? Mm-hmm. But the system is set so that it's, it's on overload, right? Yeah. So in treatment, what we wanna do is help that person feel more in control, have more power, more connection to themself and others. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. In. Oh, my, my nervous system can now distinguish. Um, for me personally, I did EMDR on a house fire that I survived. Wow. So what I remember experiencing doing that trauma treatment was it went from constantly, any time something smelled slightly burnt Mm, the iron was left on to, [00:28:00] to a candle, was blown out like four rooms away. Kelli Underwood: I would go into panic. Like, oh no, something's on fire. Mm-hmm. And through treatment, what we can do is we really help move through, heal, reset the system so that over time I don't freak out. Now when I smell a candle, right. I don't freak out. When the iron's on my brain, my body and my nervous system can now distinguish that smell from the smell of something's burning on the stove. Kelli Underwood: Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's what good trauma treatment can do for folks. Amazing. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. Graham Doerge: And how does t i I play into all that? And, and this is something that, that you have created. Sorry. Sorry, Dr. Harold Hong: I'm just saying that light went Graham Doerge: out. Got it. Keep going. Okay. So, t i, this is something that you have created. Graham Doerge: No. Kelli Underwood: Okay. No, I did not create it. I, I, my greatest mentor of my [00:29:00] life and teacher and friend and became like a family member to me. Dr. Charlotte Smith is the creator of transformative insight imagery. When she retired. Um, she. She had been teaching and training folks in this for 30 some years in the Chicago area. Kelli Underwood: Okay. And she asked me to carry on her work and gifted me with, with all of her copyright and trademark material. Wow. Amazing. And so it has been my mission to get it out to as many therapists and. Clients and regular people because it was the first thing that changed my life and put me on my journey towards healing and wholeness. Kelli Underwood: Uh, I went to all of her retreats three, four times. Wow. Became an assistant and then became my own teacher of the work. And then, uh, in Chicago I did trainings and now I'm really starting to try to get back on online teaching, uh, for therapists and [00:30:00] retreats in person and online for anybody who just wants. Kelli Underwood: To do some self-healing. And so what I love about t i I is that it is so in alignment with my values and it's, that's why I think it remains foundational to all my techniques, which is to me, the greatest gift I can give a client mm-hmm. Is the ability for them to trust themself better. Mm-hmm. To trust their wisdom, their knowingness, and to know that they have what they need inside. Kelli Underwood: Right. Because addiction, mental health, the American culture mm-hmm. All tell us that what we need is out here somewhere. Right. We just need to get that thing right, that medication, that, that thing that's gonna fix us. Mm-hmm. And what I have found is the most sustainable healing I have seen happen in folks is when they realize they have what they need Right Inside. Kelli Underwood: Right. And that's what t I does. [00:31:00] So t i I, um, we, we start with resourcing folks and what's different than guided imagery per se, is that the imager, all the images are coming from them. I am not telling people what they image. Mm-hmm. So people are astonished. And surprised sometimes of what comes up in their own experience from their own history to support them, to provide wisdom or love or support. Kelli Underwood: And so there's a greater ownership over those resources. Wow. Cuz they're mine. That's my place. That's my wise guide. Right. And then we really work with clients on practicing in life here and now accessing those resources to shift you. So there are aspects of. Polyvagal regulation Pendulation from somatic experience experiencing. Kelli Underwood: So people will come in and tell me all the time, oh my gosh, I [00:32:00] got really triggered. And then I used my wise guide and I felt them beside me. Or I took four breaths of my centering place. And I did it differently. Mm-hmm. I broke the pattern. Wow. I was more available. My adult self came and took care of me. Kelli Underwood: Wow. Right, right. And showed up there. We also have people meet their best self, their highest self, and then we, in t I I, you can become anything. Hmm. So you can experience a whole new perspective, whole new insight that you never had before. You can learn that, okay, I'm really struggling right now. I'm gonna merge with that wisdom of my wise guide or that higher, higher. Kelli Underwood: Best self. Mm-hmm. And it's a game changer. Right? Wow. So we do this incredible resourcing and people own it. I find that people use it. They come back and they're telling me success stories. Mm-hmm. Which is why I love it. Yeah. Then when they're resourced and they're, they're a little stronger and they're ready to be a little more vulnerable and face those fears, we can go [00:33:00] into an eight step journey. Kelli Underwood: And that journey, I teach therapists how to do this because it's unlearning, because for therapists, Your job as a t i I co-facilitator is to get out of the way. Mm. Your job is not to fix it or solve it or come up with some great idea. Your job is to trust that the imager, their system, their body, their psyche will take them and do whatever they need to do to have the healing today. Kelli Underwood: Amazing. Mm-hmm. And to watch people do this. Changes their lives cuz they're like, I had no idea that's what I needed to do with that. I didn't know that my neck is tight all the time because I'm holding anger there. Mm. And now I have, I, I, I know what I need to do. To let that go or we go and free a lost self that got cut [00:34:00] off. Kelli Underwood: So back to what you were saying about trauma can be really obvious or really subtle. I've had so many people over the years free a lost self that they didn't even realize they had cut off from. Mm-hmm. That was a subtle, it was invalidating, A relationship was invalidating. They didn't get, you know, maybe. Kelli Underwood: They really needed affection as a kid. They really needed to be held, but they happened to have parents who weren't affectionate. Yeah, right. And so that for them was internalized as a child that I'm not loved. When in reality their parents love them, but they didn't receive it in the way they needed it. Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. Right. That can be traumatic, right. For a child. Right. And it's not a fault, it's not a blame, it's a statement that that can really affect people. Right. And their relationships in the future and children will blame themselves. Right. Right. So we have people go and they discover this younger self in the imagery. Kelli Underwood: And the imagery is five senses. [00:35:00] Plus it's so visceral. That people are amazed at how real their imagery experiences can be. Mm-hmm. And so it's very anchoring and they are in the driver's seat, and the co-facilitator is encouraging, reminding them of the resources they have, asking them things like, what needs to happen next? Kelli Underwood: Right. What are you willing to do? Who or what of your resources is available to help you in this moment? Mm-hmm. And so for me, it's so aligned. With what I most deeply believe about healing is when the client truly owns what they're doing and their choice. So, That's life changing, right? Yeah. That's, that's the ripple effect. Kelli Underwood: So I like to do things that have big impact. Yeah. I like to do things that are impactful. And so t i I has both the resourcing piece and the deeper healing transformation piece. And a couple other things that people have told me is [00:36:00] we've got mindfulness in there. People learn mindfulness, they learn regulation, and then they also learn in the eight step process parts, work body awareness. Kelli Underwood: They start to get insight that they never had before about what they're holding and where it's being held. Mm-hmm. And they learn ways they can shift that at any moment. And that's what I also love. People learn any moment. It's all available. Right? I don't have to be in front of my therapist to do this. Kelli Underwood: I have it when I'm at work. I have it when I'm at home with my partner. I have all these resources available. Graham Doerge: And, and are some of these resources, like, you know, breath work? I hear you kind of talking about a bed and what, what are some of those, you know, particular resources? Kelli Underwood: Well, can we do one? Yeah. Can we do one together? Kelli Underwood: Love it. Can we do the first one? Let's do it. All right, let's do it. So this is not. Graham Doerge: This is the fun part Kelli Underwood: that we talked about. This is the fun part. This is like, let's experience it. So even my, my, my people who helped me with marketing have said, you know, t i I is [00:37:00] really tough for you to talk about because it's an experience and it is so different for every person. Kelli Underwood: It's very hard to put to words. Yeah. So you have to understand that Dr. Charlotte Smith created this. In the 19 79, 19 80. So this was before a lot of the things that people tell me all the time, oh, it's sort of like this. Oh, it's sort of like that, right? Um, and so the first thing we do, other, other approaches have done as well, but I think it's how we do it in t i I that you might experience is a little different. Kelli Underwood: Okay? So the first thing we do is we find a center and that becomes our home base, our anchor for every process that we do. Yeah. And it's a place. Mm-hmm. And the really cool thing I love about t i i is its infinite possibilities. Mm-hmm. I see therapists open up to their creative side, like they haven't in years because you never run out. Kelli Underwood: Right? Like I've been doing t i i for my personal journey for 20 some years, and I have multiple centers, right? When [00:38:00] it's winter here, I go to the beach. Right? When it's summer, I go to the mountains, right. So I need different support. At different times depending on what's going on in my life. Right. And t i, I will reveal what you need. Kelli Underwood: What you need. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You will get what you need. Yeah. So that's the beauty of it. And as a therapist, I don't have to know that. I have to give the imager permission to know that. Right. Love that. Yeah. So all we're gonna do is we're just gonna, you can either pick a place you wanna venture to, or you can see what comes to you. Kelli Underwood: Right. You can keep your eyes open if that feels better for you, or you can close your eyes, whatever's gonna help you have a more full experience, right? Mm-hmm. And so what I like to say is imagine you're just pouring yourself to a peaceful, relaxing, replenishing place. It could be a place you've actually been to. Kelli Underwood: It could be a vacation place, it could be your dream vacation place. [00:39:00] It could be a place from your younger years. It could be a place you have access to right now, and you go to all the time. Mm-hmm. Choose a place you really love to be at for calm, for restoration. A place where you can catch your breath and then let yourself be there. Kelli Underwood: Let yourself be there. Kelli Underwood: Notice, what's the temperature here in your place today? Kelli Underwood: Notice how large or small your place is, Kelli Underwood: even notice how light or dark it is. Kelli Underwood: Take a moment to look around. What do you see or sense or feel here?[00:40:00] Kelli Underwood: What are the sounds? Kelli Underwood: Allow yourself to take a nice, deep inhale of the air and notice what the air is like in your place. I. Kelli Underwood: Take another breath and see are there any smells here for me? Kelli Underwood: See if there's something you wanna feel the texture of through touch. Kelli Underwood: Maybe there's even something you wanna taste. Kelli Underwood: Give yourself a moment to really enjoy your place [00:41:00] and all that it has for you here. Notice what starts to shift in your body with the support of this place. Maybe your breath has slowed, tensions releasing, and just let yourself have a few more moments. To enjoy all the here and noticing the shifts, Kelli Underwood: give yourself permission to come back and really be present here. If something starts to take you away, it's okay. Just go, oh, I'm gonna come back to my place now. Take a few more breaths. Feel the support filling you up. And you, as you look around you, you may notice there's, there's sort of a gift here, a gift of support, some [00:42:00] additional support for when you come back and be open to whatever that might be. Kelli Underwood: Can come in any form and then take a moment to set your intention. When would you like to come back here? When could it support you to drop back into your center and then be really honest with yourself? How will I remember to do this? Maybe I need to set an alarm or put it reminder in my phone, or just make sure I do it first thing in the morning or last thing at night. Kelli Underwood: Beautiful. Beautiful. As you're ready, slowly bring your awareness back to the chair, to the room, and just. Really noticing the difference. You can feel it in the room for all of us that we're just like more here. Right? More here. So I call that that's, that's like really great doorway into mindfulness, [00:43:00] into we, so let's, mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Let's just notice the diversity right here with the three of us, right? When I do this online, it's really astonishing. Now people put in the chat all the differences and where they went, right? Like, Did anybody have water where they went today? Not for me. I did nature. Any nature, any trees? Definitely Nature. Kelli Underwood: Mountains? Yes. Mountains. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Me too. Me too. And what, what sense was the strongest and clearest for you? Which one did you appreciate the most for you? Dr. Harold Hong: For me it was, I said this incredible moment where I took my son fishing. Ah. And it's the sound of him laughing. Oh, Kelli Underwood: I love that. That's so great. I love, that's so good. Kelli Underwood: Yeah. Graham Doerge: I think for me it was smell, um, So I, I kind of, there's this tree at our house in Texas that is this like beautiful live oak that's just sprawling and kind of has this like little nook in it that we do a lot of meditation and just sitting in [00:44:00] kind of the, the base of this tree and it's, and it's just so like, comforting, but it had this like, smell of like honeysuckle and I just had, I could, you know, sense it. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: So, It's really pretty amazing when we first start to open up Yeah. To what's inside us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And available. And so what I, I find so beautiful and precious is, okay, I, I have this. Mountain home that I love to go to, and I'm not physically there right now, but I was just there. Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Right? Yeah. Hundred percent. And I was seeing the sunset and smelling the mountain air and rocking in the rocking chair. And as far as my brain, my nervous system and my body are concerned, it happened, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hundred percent. So I got the same effect, even though it wasn't literal that I was there, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And so for, for folks to open up to, Whatever it is that has supported you [00:45:00] is always available. Yeah. Yeah. At every moment is sort of mind blowing. Yeah. It's mind blowing. Right, right. Yeah, it's amazing. So, so that's sort of a starting place. Then what we would do is we would really go to the next level of performance enhancement and practice, you know, with, with clients. Kelli Underwood: And so let's cue up into something that is a little stressful or anxiety provoking or triggering. Right. And let's start noticing how you know that you're getting triggered and where that shows up in your body. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're bringing in some of that somatic body-centered work, some of that nervous system work, and then we have people practice. Kelli Underwood: What would it be like to just take three or four breaths of a couple of aspects of your center right here? Right. When this happens mm-hmm. Just three or four breaths of the smell of the honeysuckle. Mm. Just three or four breaths of the sound of your son's laughter. Mm-hmm. Is enough to shift you. Right? Kelli Underwood: Like Deb, Dana talks about moving back towards ventral vagal, [00:46:00] where our home is. That's, that's when we're rest, digest, settled, able to connect, you know, present and anything that moves us a little bit back that way. Is regulating, right? Mm-hmm. Is Graham Doerge: settling and I don't think most people know that you can do that. Graham Doerge: Right? Right. Kelli Underwood: Know what you, most people dunno. It's these little micro moments. People think there's some overwhelming thing they have to learn three or four breaths of your favorite part of what you just did is enough to shift you so that in that moment you can do something different. You have more available. Kelli Underwood: To choose differently. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It could be the tone of your voice is different. It could be you pause before you speak. It could be you respond instead of react. It could be you walk away. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Totally. Well, and, and I, and you know, here, uh, at our site, we, we do breath work with all of our clients. Graham Doerge: Um, and it's always amazing to me because it is, Probably one of the most impactful, [00:47:00] uh, yes. Interventions we have here. Yes. And it's, you know, probably the cheapest thing that we do as well. Yes. So it's just, you know, it's amazing and because people go into it, you know, with not really understanding what, what it's gonna be all about. Graham Doerge: And they come out of it just having this like, transformative experience and it's really beautiful to just kind of give them a little glimpse of like, you know, this is out there and these are things that you can start utilizing and put in your toolbox. Right, right. And your Kelli Underwood: breath is always available. Kelli Underwood: Yes. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, I talk about recovery as taking radical responsibility for your wellbeing, like understanding only I can make myself feel the way that I want to feel or need to feel. Exactly. Actually, and but this what you're talking about and what we just experienced, it, it, it opens up this whole new layer, which is how can you take responsibility? Dr. Harold Hong: Unless you trust yourself. Mm. To take responsibility. Yes. Um, but when [00:48:00] you, when you take someone through an exercise like this, you, you're not telling them, you, you are showing them. Right? Like, or they're actually showing them themselves Yes. That they could do it. Yes. Right. And, and as they. You know, cause I'm like, wow, I did that. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah, I did that. Yes, Kelli Underwood: yes. It's there. That's what I love so much is exactly what you're saying. People start to get more confident. Mm-hmm. They feel like they have a, they have competency over how to manage the really hard stuff in life. Right. Okay. I have some things I can do. I have some tools, right? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. And yeah, it brings confidence Dr. Harold Hong: as we're going through experience, I was feeling. I felt deep relief. Yes. And I also felt like a spark of like joy and energy and to be realistic, like we all need that sense of relief. Yes. From time to time, we all need that spark. Yes, yes. Of inspiration from time to time. Dr. Harold Hong: And if you grew up in a [00:49:00] place where no one showed you how to do those things yourself. Yeah. Alcohol is a good way to get relief. Exactly. Um, Adderall or like another stimulant is a good way to get that spark. Yep. And so, you know, those substances misused, like they're actually intended for a thing that we all need. Dr. Harold Hong: Right, right. But the use of those things is born out of this distrust. Yes. That I can do it. Yes. Right. Like I can only get it from out here. But when you're showing people No, like, You can take radical responsibility because you can realistically trust yourself to produce that. Yes. And that's, that's freedom. Kelli Underwood: That is freedom. Mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. Perfect. That is freedom. Yes. It's so Dr. Harold Hong: powerful that Yes. You know, it's hard to figure this out on your own. Right. But it's, Kelli Underwood: I couldn't have, right. If I hadn't walked into Dr. Charlotte Smith's retreat, I don't know that I would've figured this out. Mm-hmm. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Well, and we're finally talking about these things, right? Graham Doerge: Yes. And that's the point of, you know, having this [00:50:00] podcast is, is obviously trying to bring a little bit aware of awareness, you know, to folks that, you know. I, I feel super fortunate that. Listen, I went to treatment back in 2008 and I learned a lot of this stuff, but not everybody has that experience. Graham Doerge: Right, exactly. So, um, you know, for those of us that are kind of luck, lucky enough to have stumbled upon it, it's great. But, but everybody should know about this. Right? Right. Should be front page news. Right, right. Exactly. And Right. You know. Exactly. It's just unfortunately not. And, you know, um, obviously, you know, ob, you know, exercise and taking care of our body and all those kind of components, I mean, this is all so, so important for our overall. Graham Doerge: Wellbeing, right? Mm-hmm. Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. It's all important for our overall wellbeing, and it starts with that deeper healing, I find for so many folks is those internalized stories. Yeah. From our painful experiences of, well, I, I don't deserve this. Right. Do I deserve wellbeing? Right. You do. Am I worthy of it? Kelli Underwood: Mm-hmm. [00:51:00] Um, am I lovable? Um, Is anybody gonna stay and not leave? Like, all of these things are under it. And I have just found that the trauma treatments and the transformative inside imagery can help people, you know, not just manage symptoms and create new behaviors, which is really important and helpful. Kelli Underwood: But let's go, let's go to the heart of the matter and let's, let's help you regrow yourself up from the inside with. Compassion and love and support so that you can say like I had a client say the other day. It's a really tiny voice now that wonders if I'm worthy because there's a much louder voice that goes. Kelli Underwood: Heck yeah, I am. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that isn't that what we all want? Yeah. Right. Yes. We want that part to be in charge. Yes. A hundred percent part that goes, yes, I am Dr. Harold Hong: worthy. Yes. Amen. Graham Doerge: Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation and, uh, so much information and [00:52:00] where can everybody find you? Your website? Graham Doerge: I, I gather. Kelli Underwood: Oh yes. My website is my name, kelly underwood.com. The trick is you have to spell my name the way my mother gave it to me, which is k e l l I got it. Underwood just like, yes, the singer and no, I'm not related, nor am I related to the actor Blair. There you go. Um, and, uh, I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, it's my name, Kelly Underwood, l c s w. Kelli Underwood: Great. And. Yeah, and I have, uh, some upcoming stuff going on. I'm actually just joined the platform of CE training and workshops. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna be doing an introduction to t i i on there for three CEEs in July. It'll be recorded. And also offer some introduction on my website through just a course that you pay for without CEEs for folks who just wanna experience it. Kelli Underwood: Perfect. Graham Doerge: I love it. Really such great information and thanks for coming in today. Thanks for having me. Um, and find us@findingnewwaters.com and [00:53:00] on all streaming platforms and we will talk to you guys next week. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much. Dr. Harold Hong: Thank you all. Show Notes In this captivating episode, we invite you to join us as we explore the remarkable story of Kelli Underwood, a passionate psychotherapist and the owner of transformative Insight Imagery. Kelli's commitment to lifelong learning and her integrative approach to therapy have allowed her to offer a diverse range of options tailored to the unique needs of each client.Together with Graham Doerge, the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery, and Dr. Harold Hong, the medical director, we embark on a deeply insightful conversation with Kelli, delving into her personal journey and the driving force behind her career in the behavioral health field. Key Takeaways: • The Power of Compassionate Listening: Kelli's childhood experiences as a trusted confidant for her friends led her to recognize the value of being a good listener and propelled her towards a career in a helping profession. • The Transformative Potential of Therapy: Kelli shares a life-changing moment when she sought therapy as a teenager and experienced the profound impact of being genuinely heard, validated, and supported. This experience solidified her desire to create a similar safe space for others. • The Importance of Rapport and Trust: Kelli highlights the significance of building a strong therapeutic relationship based on rapport, empathy, and trust. She emphasizes that clients should have the freedom to choose a therapist who aligns with their needs and values. • Accessing Inner Wisdom and Self-Trust: Kelli introduces transformative Insight Imagery (tii) as a powerful therapeutic approach that empowers clients to trust themselves and access their own inner resources. By emphasizing self-trust and wisdom, tii promotes healing and personal growth. • Resourcing and Readiness in Trauma Recovery: Kelli sheds light on trauma and the importance of creating a sense of safety and empowerment before delving into deeper healing work. She underscores the significance of readiness and the order of interventions based on each client's unique journey. Join us as we dive into the world of transformative therapy with Kelli Underwood, and discover the transformative power of trust, compassion, and self-discovery on the path to healing and wellness. This episode serves as a beacon of hope and guidance for those seeking support in their mental health and addiction recovery journeys. Kelli's Links: ⁠https://www.kelliunderwood.com/⁠(https://www.kelliunderwood.com/) ⁠https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kelli-underwood-durham-nc/177948⁠(https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kelli-underwood-durham-nc/177948) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-underwood-05763734/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-underwood-05763734/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1) Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!