In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, hosts Dr. Harold Hong and Justin Mclendon welcome grief counselor and interfaith minister AnnE O'Neil to discuss the intersection between grief and substance use, including the five gates of grief, and the role of spirituality in the recovery process. < Back to Episodes AnnE O'Neil Grief Uncovered 47.34 min | AnnE O'Neil | Finding New Waters Dive into the world of grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders with AnnE O'Neil, a grief counselor, interfaith minister, and spiritual counselor. In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, hosts Dr. Harold Hong and Justin Mclendon welcome AnnE to discuss her expertise in the intersection between grief and substance use. Discover how AnnE's personal experience with grief led her to explore its connection with substance use, and uncover the five gates to grief identified by Francis Weller. Join the conversation on the importance of addressing grief, understanding its different aspects, and the role of spirituality in the recovery process. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "Grief is a taboo topic in our society. We don't know how to handle it, and so we don't talk about it. But the reality is that it's a universal human experience." AnnE O'Neil Podcast Transcript AnnE O'Neil Justin Mclendon: [00:00:00] I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality and just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of opening AnnE O'Neil: that conversation up, what do you think about that? Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two in the recovery. AnnE O'Neil: I, I think what I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well, is it is very important to give. To what spirituality is to each and every person. Um, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you, it may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it. AnnE O'Neil: Could be[00:01:00] Dr. Harold Hong: all right. All right. Uh, well, thank you for joining us on this new episode of Finding New Waters, and today we have Annie O'Neill. Annie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for AnnE O'Neil: having me here. Dr. Harold Hong: Sure. Uh, and we also have Justin McClennan, executive Director here at New Waters. And, uh, today we're going to be talking about Annie's Air of expertise in grief and its relationship to substance use disorders. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, thanks so much for being with us here today. Just wanna open up like with this idea of what is the connection between grief and how did you get interested in this topic of grief? AnnE O'Neil: So personally, I got forced into this topic of grief. Um, I came from a family that, uh, squelched grief like a lot of families do. AnnE O'Neil: And when I was 25 and my mother [00:02:00] died and there was no service, um, she had spent seven and a half weeks in intensive care. Um, and then she passed and we were expected to go on. And so nothing had happened and there was no opportunity to process and no. And even prior to that, there had been a few other instances where, you know, like, no to grief, not, not okay. AnnE O'Neil: Um, but that was really the capstone. And at that time, I, myself was already drinking as a lot of my family did. Um, and that definitely escalated it to a new level. So I personally saw the link between. Grief and substance use, but I didn't think about it much until many, many, many years, even decades later, when I was working at a, as at a, um, hospital as a chaplain and I had a grief counseling background. AnnE O'Neil: And, uh, one of the substance use counselors found that out and said, boy, are we gonna put you to use? And I started working with a lot of the people individually there. And what I was really struck by was, how many of. Had said that [00:03:00] nobody had ever talked to them about, and these were people a lot who, whom had been in and out of a lot of treatment centers. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And there just wasn't the room for talking about the loss. And, you know, the topics that often go with it too, like for need for forgiveness for themselves, need for forgiveness for others. Uh, spiritual connection with people on the other side. A lot of people find that they can find a higher. By first linking to ancestors that they knew. AnnE O'Neil: So, um, it, it really opened my eyes to what feels to me still, I think it's getting better, but still feels to me like a, a kind of missing element in most places around recovery. And, and Dr. Harold Hong: that's true. You shared the Annie. Um, it's, it's weird that grief is so common, but also. So un like, so foreign and unknown to us. Dr. Harold Hong: And I think a lot of our, our viewers and our [00:04:00] listeners might not even know how to think about the word grief. Mm-hmm. So just to, just to help people get caught up. When we're talking about grief or when you talk about grief, how do you help patients understand what grief is? AnnE O'Neil: There are two different levels to that. AnnE O'Neil: You know, the standard response is, it's the normal reaction to significant loss. And, um, I also often take, take people to Francis Weller is a youngian, uh, therapist that I, I've done some studying with. Mm-hmm. And he has a book called Wild Edge of Sorrow, which is an absolutely beautiful book. And he identifies there as being five gates to grief. AnnE O'Neil: The first gate is everything we love, we will lose. So that's what our society traditionally thinks of as grief. Mm-hmm. It's loss of loved ones, loss of jobs, loss of health, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that's the first thing. The second thing that he, uh, he calls gate two is grief for the parts of us that have [00:05:00] not known love. AnnE O'Neil: And that includes a lot of shame and a lot of people in recovery can really relate to that. So it's grief for the parts of us that have not known love from others or from ourselves. And then the third gate to grief is grief for the world. Living The world that we live in today with what, you know, society is like. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And what's happening to Mother Nature and everything. A lot of us carry that day in and day out. And it's kind of background noise, but it's not, you know, not to be dismissed by any stretch. The fourth gate, he calls, um, grief for the part, for the things that we needed and did not receive. And he especially talks about that being at the soul level. AnnE O'Neil: So the acknowledgement of who we are as a person, you know, not being seen, not being heard, not being valued for the gifts and what we're bringing. Mm-hmm. And then the fifth is ancestral. So it's what are we carrying in from our family lineage. Mm-hmm. So I, I often introduce people to all five of [00:06:00] those gates because I find it opens up the mind as to what grief is. AnnE O'Neil: And sometimes even though it feels big at that point in time, it can help it to feel a little more approachable too. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's interesting. You know, to back up a minute, you were talking about how, um, It seems like people just don't give enough attention to, to grief. Right. Or address it enough. And I wonder just what, what your opinion about that is, or what's your thoughts around why is it that there's not enough attention AnnE O'Neil: given? AnnE O'Neil: I think it's because it is such a big emotion mm-hmm. That most people don't know how to sit with it. Most, most people. It's scary. Mm-hmm. Um, there, I've talked to many, many people that are like, if I go into this, I'm not sure that I can. Mm. And you know, in that instance I talk about the fact of the strength of the psyche and the soul in that, you know, they will protect you. AnnE O'Neil: They will take you only as far as you can go. [00:07:00] And, um, that's an important thing to, to give people comfort with. But a lot of people feel like it can get so overwhelming. Mm-hmm. And to. You know, in the background, it's our society telling us things like, you gotta keep busy, keeping busy. I'll take care of it, and all that other kind of thing. AnnE O'Neil: So it's a societal pressure as well. Right. Um, but I think it's really important, um, to just be aware that that exists and that is gonna be the background noise. But the truth of healing from grief is it takes a deep dive. Mm-hmm. It really takes a deep dive. There's a quote not related to grief directly, um, but in general from Maya Angelo that I love, that I often use around this. AnnE O'Neil: And it's, she says, I will be affected by things that happen to me, but I refuse to be reduced by them. Mm. And I use that and as an invitation to people. I say, you know, like short term, you are gonna be reduced by grief, but we wanna work together to make sure that long term you don't [00:08:00] have to be reduced by grief. AnnE O'Neil: And that includes things like you don't have to turn to substances. And a whole lot of people turn to substances. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, to piggyback off that point, Annie, Those five gates. Yeah. Uh, I think everyone I know has a lot of those gates in their lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would also say none of them would say that these are active problems for them. AnnE O'Neil: Well, you know, there's a lot of times where people are thinking that I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. Right, right. But if you really wanna have a rich full life, you kind of need to sit with, I wonder how that might impact me. Yeah. You know, I, it may not, I may be able to get through my day just fine if knowing that there is a part of my heart that is not being fed. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. But, [00:09:00] How much richer could my life be? And quite frankly, again, when come, when dealing with substance use and addiction issues, um Right. You never know when they're gonna creep up. Right. When you're pushing that kind of stuff off to the side, uh, not having healed from them mm-hmm. Right. May catch up to you at any point in time. AnnE O'Neil: Well, that's Dr. Harold Hong: what I'm, I'm curious is that what do you, do you see that happen in reality where people. Just loaded with grief, but they're unaware. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And absolutely. So Dr. Harold Hong: can you tell us about like a, a story or a time where you, you've helped someone find it, see it, and take stock of what it's done? AnnE O'Neil: I think, um, AnnE O'Neil: The client I worked with recently is a good example. Um, someone dealing with their own health issues [00:10:00] and very much in the, oh, but I found out that it's not gonna be all that bad, so I'm just going to move forward. And one of the things as a social worker is, um, I'm trying to think of the, of the word sell. AnnE O'Neil: People's right to decide where they are. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't push autonomy and Yeah. Uhhuh self autonomy. Thank you. Yeah. And I, um, and I, I don't, I don't push and she opted otherwise, but I did. Introduce her to the fact that, um, there does seem to be a little part of her that does realize that it would be helpful to look at the fear that she's experiencing around death. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And, um, and to, to look at if there's a way to kind of make friends with it. So yeah, to your point about the, everybody being loaded with it though too. Uh, another thing that Francis [00:11:00] Weller often talks about is the fact that. We usually think as soci society, whether we're in grief or not. And he talks about the fact that the reality that we're living in is everyone in our society is in grief every day. AnnE O'Neil: It's a matter of how close are you dancing with it. Wow. And I think that really helps. One of my friends talked about that, who's also a grief counselor, talked about the fact that after her sister died, she said, you know, those days when people wore black Armand, They made sense. You know, we knew to be a little bit more careful with them that there might be a little bit more emotion involved, that they might be a little more volatile or they might need a little bit more. AnnE O'Neil: And when we were walking down the streets, that was known. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, now we go by and we don't know what grief everybody's carrying. Mm-hmm. Right. And yet they're being impacted by it. And our relationships with them are being impacted by it. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: We talk a a lot about, uh, recovery [00:12:00] as a journey. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And you're talking about how when, when you had a huge loss, your drinking increased. Mm-hmm. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about how you see grief and addiction going together and, and what do they do to each other? AnnE O'Neil: Well, and so I, I. Both experiences. I have the experience of of having lost someone close to me and having increased my drinking. AnnE O'Neil: And then, um, my husband also died when I had about five years sober. So that was my, okay, I'm gonna need to learn how to do this differently if I'm gonna stay sober. So I really dove into what were the feelings that were coming up and all this other kind of stuff today. Um, and our out of that, The way that I work with people in a very general sense, I started this model called here, which I stand, what stands for Heal, explore, refine, [00:13:00] emerge, and when I first started it, I expected it to be much more, um, Much more linear and much more, uh, condensed. AnnE O'Neil: And now I use it in a very general sense. But basically what has to happen first after a loss is we need to dive into the healing. There's physical, emotional, spiritual, relational. Everything is impacted by it, and we need to really look at what, what needs to be healed from that. But after that happens for a while, people start to get into a state of exploration knowing that they're not gonna be stay the same from who they were. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So how do I want this to impact me? How do I want it to affect who I am today? And, and after the exploration comes, the period of refinement about what do you wanna keep and what do you not wanna keep, and then kind of emerge into the, the beingness of a new person. Um, you know, one thing I talk about a lot with the notion of [00:14:00] both, um, grief and and recovery. AnnE O'Neil: They are by far, in a way, the hardest things that people will have to go through in their lifetime, but they are also the biggest opportunities people have for true transformation. Mm. And I think that's an important hope to hold out for people. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: You know, I'm thinking, um, you were talking about the, the five gates. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. I can't remember the words that you used, but the fourth one, uh, essentially things that we didn't receive mm-hmm. That we, that we needed and we didn't get, essentially. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think Dr. Hong could speak to this too. So a, a lot of the work that we do, I think work that we've all probably done right. Justin Mclendon: But we do an assessment process here where we're able. Really do a deep dive with people on the psychological, psychiatric, and physical kind of front. Uh, and I think Dr. Hong would probably agree with me more times than not. It's really interesting to work with people. Um, And, and bring to their awareness sometimes that they're [00:15:00] not even aware of all of these things that they needed in their past, uh, or currently mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: Uh, that they just never really got. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Um, and they often dismiss it with, oh, that's silly. That's stupid. I don't really need that. Yeah. Yeah. Or that, that's Justin Mclendon: not trauma. And interesting. I'm, I feel like I'm learning something or having my perspective shift because I've always thought of that as like trauma. Justin Mclendon: I, it's really refreshing to also kind of see that as mm-hmm. As grief. Mm-hmm. Which is, is really nice, uh, to just have that different perspective. But, um, but yeah, I think that's, that's huge and I think most people probably struggle with that in some way or another. Right. Things that AnnE O'Neil: maybe they needed interested in. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. And that's a lot of work that I do with people mm-hmm. Is around their needs and identifying them, and particularly working with people in the healing process, uh, after a loss. Mm-hmm. I invite them to think about all of the roles I'm talking about, a loss of a loved one. Mm-hmm. All of the roles that a person played in their life [00:16:00] and. AnnE O'Neil: What needs were filled from that. Mm-hmm. And I help them to see that those needs still exist and they will of course, never be filled in the exact same way. And that is something to be grieved and paid attention to and everything else. Yeah. But it's also important to look at how are those needs gonna be met otherwise, you know, when, when a partner dies, they're also, you know, Travel buddy, your, your financial companion. AnnE O'Neil: Sure. Mm-hmm. And, and all of those needs are very real. And unfortunately it's not stuff that's looked at often. Mm-hmm. And it's really important cuz it impacts somebody's life to the very core level. Absolutely. So, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. But with how painful and complicated it is, denial is totally natural. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of our clients, family members. I would say that they know that their loved one is in total denial [00:17:00] of this huge loss that they've had. Mm-hmm. And, and they're using alcohol to just cover the pain up. Just numb. Numb, the emotional pain of that huge loss. And they've, they've asked them to go for help. Dr. Harold Hong: They've asked them to process it, get into it, and they, they can't or they won't. Mm-hmm. Um, have you ever been in a situation. Someone, someone came into your office and you helped them, helped them have the courage to, to take that step into that tough work. AnnE O'Neil: One of the things that I used with the groups at the hospital a lot that that opened people's eyes, I think is I talked about the similarities between. AnnE O'Neil: Grief and early recovery that in both instances, you know, the rug has been pulled out from them. They don't know who they are. They don't know what's next. They don't know how they're gonna get there. They don't know if they even care if they get there or not. Yeah, so that's a huge thing. Physical symptoms are all over the place. AnnE O'Neil: [00:18:00] Emotional emotions are up and down and sideways, and relationships are up in the air and all this other kind of stuff. When I delivered that news first to the groups, they were like, wait a minute. Why are you dumping all this? And then I said, but the good news is healing from grief. And getting into recovery have a lot of similarities too. AnnE O'Neil: They have the similarities of it's one day at a time cuz that's all you can take. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have the similarities that spirituality can really be helpful and when I say spirituality, I refer to some connection to something beyond that helps you to make some sense. It might be nature, it might be music, it might be a more traditional religion, whatever it is, but it's what helps you make some sense of the universe. AnnE O'Neil: It's helpful to have just a couple of people that you can talk to, that you can, that really get what you're going through. Uh, it's helpful to tell your story. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of similarities in both instances too. So I remind them that [00:19:00] they're not in getting into recovery and or dealing with their healing from grief, they're not only tackling one, they're tackling both at the same time. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Makes it a little more palatable at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Did that answer your question? Dr. Harold Hong: I'm not sure if it did. I I think it's great. You're, you're talking about getting people in, in, in sync with the idea of grief, uh, because they've heard a lot about recovery. Mm-hmm. And you can say, okay, it's, it's actually not that far off from Right. Dr. Harold Hong: This, this track that you've already started to build up for. Um, but we have people who are in total denial. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I, I, it's, it's shocking. Like Justin and I, we, we've worked with so many clients here. Yeah. And, uh, we know that family of origin trauma was, was a huge contributing factor to the development of their process or their substance use. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. And years. Yep. When you asked them what was it like, they would say perfect. Yeah. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Yeah. [00:20:00] Perfect family. Not uncommon at all. Yeah, yeah. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Uh, and I think that so many of our, the, our clients' loved ones are just tearing their hair up. Yeah. Right. Like, how can you not see how, how dysfunctional this is? Dr. Harold Hong: How can you not see how much pain you're carrying? And, uh, what are some, some ways. We can break through like this, this shield of denial. Yeah. That is so powerful with a lot of our clients. Yeah. AnnE O'Neil: I, um, in that kind of instance, I, I turned to motivational interviewing and the, the, the note, the pointing out the dissonance, Uhhuh, the very gentle, compassionate, loving, pointing out the dissonance. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And you know, the other thing too that I think is important is the whole notion of. Holding them in their wholeness. That came from the spiritual counseling training that I had. Mm-hmm. And I'm so grateful for it because I, it means that I'm a [00:21:00] therapist that doesn't work from the pathological standpoint. AnnE O'Neil: It means that I'm holding them in their wholeness even when they can't see it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'm holding them in their ability to get through the grief and their ability to see it eventually, their ability to, um, you know, stand up for their life. When they can't possibly imagine that they even need to at this point in time. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Dr. Harold Hong: That makes a lot of sense actually. Uh, just thinking about it, uh, we, we had Sheila Mainland, uh, visit with us and she's an experiential therapist in Charlotte. Uh, does a lot of training and work with the Onset Workshops team. And, uh, she would say that safety is absolutely the beginning. Right? Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. And, uh, when you're talking about grief and pain and. Dangerous. That feels in so many ways. If you're not safe, absolutely. If you're not in a safe therapeutic relationship, you're, you're going to hide it. Right? Yeah. And um, and it reminds me of this other thing that I just ran across, which is when we see [00:22:00] something that doesn't make sense. Dr. Harold Hong: We can react to it with anger. Right. Or curiosity. Right. Right. And I love your approach of motivational interviewing cuz it's it's curiosity. Mm-hmm. Right. Tell me how that helps you. Yep. Uh, tell me what you think about, tell me what you worry about. And, and it's, it's just a much safer place Yeah. For people to get to know themselves better. AnnE O'Neil: I do a fair amount of, um, ifs parts work too, and curiosity is so key to that. It's really interesting when somebody meets a part that they're like, I'm not sure I like this part. What am I gonna do with it? So, Dr. Harold Hong: so for, for our nons. Therapy. Got it. People. What is if Fs, AnnE O'Neil: and tell us what, it's the Internal Family Systems. AnnE O'Neil: It was founded about 40 years ago by Richard Schwartz, and it is the notion that all of us have many, many parts within us. And a simple, simple thing that I often use with clients is I have a part that wants to go to a party and I have a part that doesn't wanna go to a party. Mm-hmm. I have a part [00:23:00] that you. AnnE O'Neil: Has wonderful memories from childhood and I have a part that remembers that. You know, there was a lot of neglect there too. Mm-hmm. And as we start to get to know these parts, the goal is not to banish any of them. You know, the parts of us that we don't like as well, the judgmental and all this other kind of stuff. AnnE O'Neil: They all feel like they. Something to offer us. They're all rooting for us and, and holding us in the highest. Yeah. And what we need to do is make the space to, to come from that, to understand them, to accept them, and to give them their space, and then we can begin to negotiate with them a little bit as opposed to banish them completely. AnnE O'Neil: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks for that. Justin Mclendon: I like. Negotiation. I think there's a lot of that that has to go on, right? Yes. AnnE O'Neil: Well, recovery is nothing but a lot of negotiation. Yeah. Negotiation with ourselves, [00:24:00] negotiation with others, and Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Families. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yep. A Dr. Harold Hong: hundred percent. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, if, if, if someone negotiates and says, well, why do I have to stop drinking? If I wanna do this grief work, can, can I, can I keep drinking and, and keep working with you, Annie, on grief work? What, what would you say to a client? I would, AnnE O'Neil: um, it would, it would depend upon the client, quite frankly. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: There are some clients that I work with with harm reduction first, and I suggest that look at how they may be harming themselves or putting themselves or loved ones in danger. And if they wanna start from a harm reduction standpoint and they feel capable of doing that, I may very well start some grief work with them if, just to get a sense as to whether or not mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Where they really are. Um, there are others that I would probably just outright say, [00:25:00] No. Mm-hmm. But it really is up to the individual. Yeah. What's going on with the individual client. But like I have become a huge fan of harm reduction, and I think that's a, that's an open opening of the door to a lot of people. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, Dr. Harold Hong: and by that you mean, uh, we're, we're gonna take the good that we can get safely and so, um, If total sobriety right now is not an option and we can still see if we do some grief work, we'll, we'll go for that. Yes. But rule of thumb, like you're, it sounds like most of the time you're saying sobriety first. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, well mostly because I don't think, I don't think it's possible to really do. Deep grief work. Mm-hmm. When you're in mind altered states Right. A good chunk of your life, Justin Mclendon: just not being able to connect, truly AnnE O'Neil: emotional. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. The, the defenses are still a little too strong at that point [00:26:00] in time. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Can you fully recover from substance use without doing the grief AnnE O'Neil: work? Mm, that's a great question. That is a good question. I. AnnE O'Neil: I suppose it depends upon the losses that you've experienced in your life. Say you're in your early twenties and you've had a relatively mild substance use career so far, you may be able to. But if you've been using pretty heavy and hard for, for a decade or so, you have probably had enough grief instances from that alone. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. The number of people at the rehab that I worked with that had, you know, been shooting up with somebody who died. Right. So they have grief and trauma at the exact same time. Right. And guilt and all sorts of other things. Um, then you're probably not gonna be able to recover until you do some, do some work around that. AnnE O'Neil: Definitely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:27:00] I talk about the fact that with all trauma comes grief and with a lot of grief comes trauma. You know, if your 95 year old grandmother died and she had lived a full life and you had a good relationship, there's not gonna be trauma around that. But if you were shooting up with somebody and they died next to you mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: You're gonna have some trauma to work too. Absolutely. Work through too, so, absolutely. Yeah. Right. Justin Mclendon: Yep. No, that is 100% for sure. And, and you know, traumatic, I mean, just using that word, I think substance use in itself, I mean, if anybody has struggled with the depths of addiction, like in itself is traumatic. AnnE O'Neil: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. The things we put ourselves through. Yeah. 100%. Justin Mclendon: 100%. So, uh, I'm, I'm AnnE O'Neil: biased. I'd like to squeeze this into the conversation. Justin Mclendon: Okay. I think anytime I think about grief, I can't think about, I can't not think about, uh, spirituality. Mm-hmm. And just the connections and stuff there. So just kind of mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: Opening that conversation up. What do you [00:28:00] think about that? AnnE O'Neil: Well, as I said earlier, that is one of the commonalities between the, the two mm-hmm. In the recovery. Mm-hmm. I, I think. What I have learned, and I am an interfaith minister and a spiritual counselor as well. Mm-hmm. Is, it is very important to give space as to what spirituality is to each and every person. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Uh, a lot of times I will say it may be nature for you. Mm-hmm. It may be this, it may be that, but I, I agree with you that fundamentally it's important, but I also think it's really, really important to have a broad swath as to what it could be. Yeah. Given that, as I said, spirituality to me is something that has purpose and meaning. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, then yes, that's, that is. When someone has lost someone so close to them, that is often what's missing. Yeah. Um, and you know, David Kessler, who used to work with Elizabeth Kubler Ross has written a book on the, [00:29:00] the sixth stage of, of mm-hmm. Grief, which is finding meaning. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think there's a lot of validity to that, that we, um, we heal by. AnnE O'Neil: Saying, wait a minute, I do have reason to go on. Wait, wait a minute. It does make sense in my own book. Um, it, it, which is called, uh, if You Want The Rainbow, welcome the Rain, A Memoir of Grief and Recovery. I talk about the fact that when I was sitting in a songa, it, it taught me to go back to my breath at a point in time when I didn't care if I was breathing or not. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And I, I share that with a lot of people because. People are really quick to say, I'm not suicidal, but I don't care if I'm here or not. And I'm like mm-hmm. Completely, completely, completely understandable. Part of grief. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. And so whatever it is that helps us to find that meaning and that purpose mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: Um, to, to wanna still be here. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Well, I mean, to your point, Justin, I, I, I think that I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who use [00:30:00] spirituality to. Like skip grief. Right, right. To avoid it. Right. So they'll say everything happens for a reason. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they're in a better place. They, they, they're in heaven now, and we're just moving on. AnnE O'Neil: I should be happy. Right. Yeah. Have you heard of the term spiritual bypass? Yeah, that's exactly what that is. And I, so it was coined by John Wellwood, and it is to use a spiritual precept to go around having emotion. Mm-hmm. And it is probably grief that that happens the most around, you're absolutely right. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. And it never, it never works. Right. You know, might, it might work for a very short period of time, but it's gonna catch up to you sooner later. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. I mean, I, my heart like feels very, uh, Frustrated and, and heavy. Mm-hmm. When, when I hear those, those conversations happen because, um, well, I, spirituality, faith, uh, is a huge part of my life [00:31:00] mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: As well. Um, I, I am a firm believer that there, there is a higher power and the meaning and the intent of that higher power is woven through everything that we experience. Uh, but I also believe that our higher power. Uh, wants us to understand things more fully and, and live more holistically than this. Um, and, and so like, how do, how do you help people think through, like how, how all the complexities of a spiritually sacred grief process? AnnE O'Neil: Well, I. That's an excellent question. And the note, I love the notion of the spiritually sacred. Mm-hmm. And it is to talk about the sacredness of their life, how they lived, what their legacy is, how they impacted their li, their own life, the person who's left behind and from their [00:32:00] in the honoring. They can usually start to get in touch with the heart a little bit more, and it, it tends to be a little bit less dismissive. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. The whole notion. You noticed, uh, we, we spoke earlier about the, the, what I call the invitations to soulful living. Mm-hmm. Yes. And one of them, the last one is the invitation to embrace one's humanity and one's mortality. And the reason that that became the eighth one, which I added in the pandemic, is I noticed how many people were so terrified of. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Positively terrified. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I am with the spiritual teachers who basically say, if you have not embraced that, you're gonna leave this world someday. You're not gonna be able to fully live on this world either. Uh, the Buddhist use a poem of meditation, [00:33:00] which basically is practicing dying to become familiar with it. AnnE O'Neil: There's a lot to be said for that. And in teaching somebody how to embrace their own, it usually helps them open the door to grief a little bit more. Mm-hmm. As well. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Can you say more about soulful living? AnnE O'Neil: I'll try. Dr. Harold Hong: I mean, it just strikes me as being the opposite of, of how, of how we ordinarily. Live in ways that, um, deplete us or, or burn us. AnnE O'Neil: It, it is absolutely the opposite of that. It's a very spacious living. It's a very pre being, present living. Um, that is actually the, the crux of the, the studying that I'm doing with Francis Weller is the whole notion of soul. And the way I describe soulful living is it is about, Being present. Being available. AnnE O'Neil: And it's about, [00:34:00] and I, I often say you can look at somebody and know when they're having a soulful life, but it's not about how it looks to people whenever we get caught in how it looks or Right, what the ego wants and all this other kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. We are completely going opposite to soul. And, um, one of my own, uh, spiritual teachers at one point in time, Kim Hughes in describe spiritual counseling as helping people to learn to live more from their soul and less from their ego. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. And that is how I describe my work a lot too, is just really helping people to inter understand at their core who they are and what they. And how they wanna live their life and giving themselves permission to do so. It, it takes me back to a quote from Rachel, Naomi Reman that I like a lot To that says healing may not be so much about getting better as it is about letting go of everything that's not you. AnnE O'Neil: All of the beliefs and all of the [00:35:00] expectations and becoming who you really are. And I think that's, Definitely in the process of recovery. And it's also true in the process of really deeply healing from grief. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: I love that. Love that idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And I mean, I have all these thoughts running through my head. Justin Mclendon: Right. But I think, you know, overarchingly like our society, I think, you know, we do a lot of the opposite of that. Right? Absolutely. That's about the work. The career advancements and just like you name it, right. What does AnnE O'Neil: it look like? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah. I was raised in a family influence. Just make it look good. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah. Just make it look, just make it look good, right? Justin Mclendon: Yeah. Keeping up with the Joneses, you know, whatever the exterior is, as long as everybody thinks that. It's good then we should be good. Right? But yeah, and it's not that, right? It's not soulful living. AnnE O'Neil: So my first career, um, was actually in advertising. I was in the glamorous world of the ad biz. AnnE O'Neil: Okay. And I've had many people laugh that I've kind of taken one. One extreme to the other. [00:36:00] I'm looking at social work as the middle path. But, um, yeah. You know, I had by 30 years old, I was a VP at one of the Hot New York agencies. Nice. And my, I was so empty though, right. I wasn't yet sober and I was just, I worked so hard. AnnE O'Neil: To make the outside look okay. Cuz the inside was just mush. Mm-hmm. Just broken and mush. Um, and that's what soulful living gets you is, is to start to let go of the fact that you have to work so hard to have the outside look good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And to start to pay attention to what does the inside need. AnnE O'Neil: You know, sit things like sitting with those five gates and really asking your question of like, how does this impact me today? Right. It takes, um, it takes a certain level of commitment to soul to even be able to begin there. Right. So, yeah, absolutely. Wow, Dr. Harold Hong: that's awesome. But that comparison is a big [00:37:00] part of why people stay in their addiction as long as they do. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? The, like, the shame. The embarrassment of admitting that you have an alcohol use disorder or you have, uh, like a pill disorder. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's too shameful. It, it compares so poorly mm-hmm. To everyone else, so I just have to keep it a secret. Yeah. Uh, same with grief. Right. Um, no one, no one wants to be around me when I'm crying or sad, so I need to hide it and just, just move on. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Right. And. It doesn't AnnE O'Neil: work. It doesn't. No, it definitely doesn't work. And you know, first of all, the truth is we're not hiding things as much as we think we are. Right. You know, people usually have a better sense of what's going on and the reality. Another one of the invitations, ah, I just realized the invitation that I forgot to mention to you guys is the invitation to connect the invitation of really connect, [00:38:00] starting with your. AnnE O'Neil: And connecting with others, connecting with spirit, connecting with nature, connecting with, um, with ancestors. It's only when we can start to tap into soul that we can truly, honestly connect when we're living from the make it look good, we're always looking over our shoulder as to, you know, how am I looking? AnnE O'Neil: How, how am I doing compared to this other one, right? So, yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Isn't that crazy? Because it is like, When we live in this world where we're gonna compare ourselves to other people, we're pretty much guaranteed to not get what we actually need or want. Right. But when we switch tracks and say, I don't care anymore, I'm gonna live for my soul. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, you're actually gonna get what you want. And, and I mean, not to go back into this other paradigm, but ironically, the people that you were previously comparing yourself to, their propaganda notice, Hey, like, Annie's, Annie's [00:39:00] so much better these days. Yeah. Like she smiles like she has energy. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, I want that for AnnE O'Neil: myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I, weird story, but I'll tell it. Anyhow. I worked at, um, my last job in advertising. Actually, that's not true. My last job in advertising before I took a year off and got sober and then came back into advertising, was at a very small agency and it was headed by a. AnnE O'Neil: Team of two, and one of them was an English guy with his booming accent. Oh. And I called to make an amend. I was a horrendous employee there. Mm-hmm. I had badmouthed them to clients. I was drunk at lunch a lot. I came in late because I was hungover from the night before and blah, blah, blah. And yet I always, I had the attitude of, well, they don't know what they have with me. AnnE O'Neil: You know? So I called him to make an amend and I, and I said, you know, I wanted to acknowledge that I. Live up to how I could have, what I should have done here and everything. [00:40:00] And again, the in booming English accent, he says, well, we all loved you on your good days. And my response was, well, I thank you for that and I'm happy to say I'm having a lot more good days. AnnE O'Neil: He says, well that's lovely. AnnE O'Neil: That's awesome. So yeah, people notice when you start living from your soul. And I was also really glad to see that the. You said, when you live for your soul, you know, I think our society can also get confused and think living for ourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And living for ourself can be a very selfish way of doing things. AnnE O'Neil: Right. Soulful living has got a lot of room, a room for being available and being of service to oth others as well. Mm-hmm. One of the things that. That Francis Willer talks about is the fact that we live in a largely adolescent society because we haven't been formed to grow, to really [00:41:00] push to grow up. AnnE O'Neil: And what adulthood really is, is about being willing to start to take responsibility for being a member of the community and serving the community as well. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really important thing to consider and, you know, something that we don't have access to when we're still using, and even when we haven't really healed our grief. AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah. When people say, uh, heal your grief. Mm-hmm. AnnE O'Neil: How do you, I'm glad you asked that question. You haven't even asked it fully, but because I've had many people say, I will, I, I will never heal from grief. Yeah. And I think that often comes from a misguided sense of loyalty that if healing the grief could mean shutting the door on it, it could mean never thinking about it. AnnE O'Neil: It could be, and that's not at all what healing from grief is the best description that [00:42:00] I've ever. It was a book that I read shortly after my husband died. It's, it was called Seven Choices by Elizabeth Harper Neil. Mm-hmm. And she talks about the fact that the last stage that she identifies as integration, and it's where you again, find that purpose and meaning that we talked about earlier, that you are. AnnE O'Neil: Again, able to access joy, um, that you're able to recognize that issues still come up in life, um, but they don't have to define you anymore. And how o, how I often describe it to people is like when you've lost something or someone that had previously defined you, the loss itself will define you for a while. AnnE O'Neil: But what happens that, that healing from grief is, it's starting to make space for other things. Starting to make space for, uh, new people to come into your life, to new interests. Mm-hmm. Um, and that kind of thing. And that, that's what healing from grief is for me. It's about being able to, you know, get [00:43:00] through to that emerge stage and find a new chapter for yourself. AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: So it's amazing. It doesn't go away. You find a way to incorporate AnnE O'Neil: it, if you will. Right. Yeah. So, um, Monday was my wedding anniversary and I had a tender day. Sure. You know? Sure. And it was 23 years ago, and my husband died 21 years ago. Mm-hmm. And I just made space for it, you know, I, I did what I needed to do. AnnE O'Neil: I was able to show up. It's been a while. Sure. Mm-hmm. But I also, You know, honored him in my heart. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, it doesn't completely go away, but you know, should it really, right. It's a large part of. What defines who we've become? I had a sponsee once ask me, one of the things that guides me is I have a deep, deep trust that things unfold for my highest good, for all of our highest good, [00:44:00] and at. AnnE O'Neil: Human ego self cannot see that most of the time. Yep. But I do have that trust, and sometimes I have to remind myself of that trust. And I was having this conversation with the Sponsee one time, and she said, but how can you feel that way after having lost your husband? After having had such short time with him? AnnE O'Neil: And without even a second thought, the words that came outta my mouth. Because of who I became as a result of that experience of knowing him, of his illness, of his death, and all of it. Um, and I think that's imp an important part of getting to the other side of, of anything that we face in our life, right? AnnE O'Neil: Is the possibility of, you know, who might I become as a result of this? Mm-hmm. To the good, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Justin Mclendon: Well, like you mentioned, I mean, I think especially with addiction, right? I mean, we hear so many people that are struggling with substance use disorder that are thinking or kicking the tires of recovery, so to speak. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. Exactly to your [00:45:00] point. Like, you know, that fear of like, well, what will I be, you know? Yeah. What will I do with my time? Who will I spend my AnnE O'Neil: time with? Mm-hmm. I'll be boring. I'll be boring for, right. What am I gonna Justin Mclendon: do for fun? AnnE O'Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing what our mind can tell us, you know? AnnE O'Neil: Mm-hmm. I, mm-hmm. I remember being terrified. It was a long time ago, about the, I will never have fun again. I have had so much more fun in recovery though, right. Ever had. Yeah. Yeah. But you. We don't know what we don't know until, and that's where it's important to have people that, that can share their experience, strength, and hope with us. AnnE O'Neil: Absolutely. Both around recovery and around the fact that it's possible to heal from grief. Mm mm-hmm. Um, and to love again, and to, you know, be a part of life again and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Any, uh, thank you so much for meeting with us today. Thank you. Like we'd said earlier, grief is something that we're all experiencing. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And it, it [00:46:00] keeps us stuck in, in our pain. Mm-hmm. And, uh, a lot of us are stuck there just because we don't know that there's another side to it. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I, I just feel so blessed and fortunate to hear your story and, and you're telling us that there is another side there, there is a soulful life mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: In our future. And our higher power desires that for all of us, um, and we can access it. Like, but when you talk with wise people like yourself, when we look for healing, um, in a place, uh, for detox and recovery, and we meet other people who have been on this journey. Mm-hmm. So those resources are out there Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: For people. Um, and, and they just, But it, it's not every day. We might not be aware of it, but there's resources out there and there's hope and mm-hmm. A soulful life ahead for all AnnE O'Neil: of us. Yeah. Yeah. And I do just wanna offer, if anybody wants to learn more about my perspective, my website is your soul path.com. Dr. Harold Hong: Excellent. Excellent. So we, we, we'll have to put a link in the, in the description to all the books that [00:47:00] you've shared, uh, all the authors and great minds that you've worked with, and, um, of course, how, how clients can connect to you. Awesome. I'd love with. Thank AnnE O'Neil: you. Thank you, Annie. Thank you. Show Notes In this episode of Finding New Waters Podcast, Dr. Harold Hong and Justin McClendon are joined by AnnE O'Neil, a grief counselor, interfaith minister, and spiritual counselor. Together, they explore the powerful connection between grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders and how it impacts the journey of recovery. AnnE shares her personal experience with grief and how it led her to her current work as a grief counselor. She mentions that she came from a family that squelched grief like many other families, and how this impacted her when her mother passed away. She discusses the importance of acknowledging different forms of grief and mentions the five gates to grief identified by Francis Weller. Throughout the conversation, AnnE shares her insights on the five gates to grief and how it can help people understand the different aspects of grief that they may be experiencing. She mentions how Francis Weller's work can be useful for counselors and therapists to approach grief in a more holistic manner. AnnE emphasizes the importance of spirituality in the healing process and how it can take many forms depending on the individual. She talks about how it's important to give space to individuals to process their grief and how grief can often be a missing element in substance use treatment. She mentions her experiences working with individuals in recovery and how many of them have never had the opportunity to talk about their grief. Overall, this episode offers a powerful and insightful conversation on grief, spirituality, and substance use disorders. AnnE's expertise in this area provides a valuable perspective on how we can better support individuals on their healing journey. For those interested in learning more about Francis Weller's work on grief, his book "The Wild Edge of Sorrow" is a great resource to start with. Find out more about AnnE Your Soul Path (https://www.yoursoulpath.com)and connect with her on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/yoursoulpath?fref=tf)and LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-o-neil-2847781/) Keywords: Grief Counseling, Spiritual Counseling, Interfaith Ministry, Substance Abuse, Addiction Recovery, Healing Journey, Emotional Wellness, Personal Growth, Self-Discovery, Compassion, Forgiveness, Ancestral Healing, Positive Psychology, Mental Health Awareness, Stress Management, Coping Strategies, Self-Care, Mindfulness Practice, Emotional Intelligence, Support Systems, Community Building, Podcast Interview, Thought Leadership, Inspirational Talk, Wellness Education, Holistic Approach, Transformational Change, Finding New Waters Podcast, Expert Insights.

In this profound and soul-stirring conversation, yoga teacher, doula, writer, and advocate Andrea Boyd dives into a wide-ranging discussion about self-anarchy, healing through breath and movement, the ancient wisdom of yoga and meditation, and the importance of reconnecting with our intuition. < Back to Episodes From the NFL to Redemption: Jeff Hatch’s Recovery Story 1:13:49 min | Jeff Hatch | Finding New Waters In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Jeff Hatch — a former NFL player turned recovery advocate — for an unflinchingly honest and deeply redemptive conversation. Jeff shares his remarkable journey from playing for the New York Giants to battling addiction, relapsing, and ultimately rebuilding a meaningful life in long-term recovery. With raw insight and humility, Jeff opens up about the weight of secrets, the darkness of relapse, and the spiritual clarity he found through surrender. Subscribe “Recovery isn't about getting back to who I was-it's about becoming who I was meant to be” – Jeff Hatch Show Notes In this powerful episode of Finding New Waters, B. Reeves sits down with Jeff Hatch — a former NFL player turned recovery advocate — for an unflinchingly honest and deeply redemptive conversation. Jeff shares his remarkable journey from playing for the New York Giants to battling addiction, relapsing, and ultimately rebuilding a meaningful life in long-term recovery. With raw insight and humility, Jeff opens up about the weight of secrets, the darkness of relapse, and the spiritual clarity he found through surrender. Jeff’s path has taken him from the NFL to a federal investigation — and now, to a leadership role in recovery at Eagle Creek Ranch. Whether you’re in recovery or just need to hear a story of hope, redemption, and true transformation, this episode is for you. 👇 TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 – Intro & Reconnecting in Seattle 01:00 – Jeff’s football journey: from UPenn to the NFL 06:30 – Injury, addiction, and painkillers in pro sports 11:00 – The illusion of achievement as a cure 18:00 – Getting honest: From overdose to treatment 22:00 – Early recovery and starting over 28:00 – Relapse, fentanyl patches, and heroin 36:00 – Getting involved with federal law enforcement 43:00 – Facing public exposure and redemption 49:00 – Finding love and rebuilding a new life 55:00 – Living spiritually through chaos 01:00:00 – Jeff’s life today: marriage, career, and fatherhood 01:08:00 – Gratitude, authenticity, and using your pain for purpose 01:12:00 – Outro & how to connect with Jeff 🔗 Find Jeff Hatch: Website: https://www.hatchcoaching.com(https://www.hatchcoaching.com/) 🏥 Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery: https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com(https://www.eaglecreekranchrecovery.com/) 📲 Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) ▶️ Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. < Back to Episodes How Addiction, Recovery, and a PHD Built a New Life with Dr. Zach Miller 42:15 min | Dr. Zach Miller | Finding New Waters In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. He opens up about the hard truths of early addiction, how structure and accountability helped him thrive, and the lessons he’s learned as a treatment provider and researcher. We also explore his dissertation, which revealed a surprising link between health insurance type and opioid overdose risk. Subscribe “I hate structure—but I thrive in it. And I think a lot of men can relate to that.” – Dr. Zach Miller Show Notes In this raw and powerful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Dr. Zach Miller, co-founder of Solutions Healthcare and a man whose story defies the odds. Zach takes us from using IV opioids at 14 and living on the streets, to building a life in recovery, earning his GED, and eventually earning his PhD in under a year. He opens up about the hard truths of early addiction, how structure and accountability helped him thrive, and the lessons he’s learned as a treatment provider and researcher. We also explore his dissertation, which revealed a surprising link between health insurance type and opioid overdose risk. Timestamps: • [00:00] Welcome & Intro – Meet Dr. Zach Miller and his work in recovery • [03:00] Early Addiction & Homelessness – IV opioid use at 14, kicked out in the snow • [07:00] Wilderness Therapy & Mentorship – Finding purpose through pain • [12:00] The Power of Structure – “I hate it, but I thrive in it” • [17:00] Plus One Minus One – A brilliant recovery framework born from real experience • [22:00] Getting a PhD in 11 Months – The journey back to academia • [27:00] Dissertation Results – How insurance type predicts overdose frequency • [34:00] Solutions Healthcare – His growing network of treatment centers in Florida • [38:00] Final Words – On humility, leadership, and staying teachable Key Topics Covered: 1. From Addiction to Academia – How Zach rebuilt from nothing and never stopped 2. The Importance of Structure – Why addicts often resist what they most need 3. The “Plus One Minus One” Model – Self-awareness in action 4. Overdose Data and Insurance – His PhD research explained 5. Humility and Leadership in Recovery – Why ego is the biggest relapse risk Guest Bio: Dr. Zach Miller PhD, Co-Founder of Solutions Healthcare Dr. Zach Miller is a recovery advocate, entrepreneur, researcher, and co-founder of Solutions Healthcare, a growing network of treatment centers in Florida. After surviving childhood addiction and homelessness, he rebuilt his life through mentorship, structure, and relentless self-work. Today, he holds a PhD and leads with a trauma-informed, accountability-based philosophy that’s saving lives. His dissertation research uncovered how insurance types correlate with non-fatal opioid overdose rates—an insight that’s reshaping how we view access to care. 📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterthanideserve22(https://www.instagram.com/betterthanideserve22) 🌐 Website: https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com(https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com/) Resources Mentioned: • Solutions Healthcare: https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com(https://www.solutionshealthcarefl.com/) • Plus One Minus One Framework • Find a 12-Step Meeting: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn)

Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Shauna Vick shares her inspiring journey from alcohol use disorder to founding "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention." A tale of overcoming societal pressures and finding true joy in sobriety and service. Don't miss this uplifting story of resilience and renewal. < Back to Episodes Rising from the Depths: Shauna Vick's Journey to Joy and Sobriety 52:47 min | Shauna Vick | Finding New Waters In this captivating episode of "Finding New Waters," Shauna Vick shares her profound journey from the brink of despair to a life filled with purpose and joy. Delve into Shauna's battle with alcohol use disorder, her confrontation with societal pressures, and how she emerged to found "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention." Discover the transformative power of resilience, support, and the pursuit of a life beyond addiction. Join us for an inspiring tale of recovery and the rediscovery of life's simple joys. Subscribe "How do you create a life that you no longer need a vacation from? How do you create a life that you no longer need to get relief from? What needs to change?" -Shauna Vick Show Notes In this enlightening episode of "Finding New Waters," we delve into the inspiring journey of Shauna Vick, who shares her powerful story of overcoming alcohol use disorder, societal pressures, and finding a renewed sense of purpose through helping others. Hosted by Graham Durgie, CEO of New Waters Recovery, and co-hosted by B. Reeves, Director of Business Development, and Justin McClendon, Executive Director, this conversation sheds light on the challenges and triumphs of achieving long-term recovery. Shauna Vick, a woman in long-term recovery, bravely opens up about her battle with alcohol use disorder, workaholism, and the so-called "Wonder Woman Syndrome." After decades of sobriety, Shauna faced a devastating relapse that led her to re-evaluate her life and career. Moving away from a successful stint as a software sales executive, she founded "Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention," dedicating her life to aiding others on their path to recovery. Born and raised in Toronto, Canada, Shauna now enjoys a peaceful life in North Carolina with her family and engages in outdoor activities to connect with nature and maintain her sobriety. Key Points Discussed: 1. **Shauna's Personal Journey:** Shauna shares her intense struggle with alcohol, highlighting the fine line between being sober and relapsing. Her story is a stark reminder of the continuous battle individuals in recovery face, especially when confronted with old behaviors and societal pressures. 2. **The Pressure of Perfection:** The discussion delves into the "Pinterest Perfect Life" and "Wonder Woman Syndrome," where Shauna details how striving for an unattainable societal image contributed to her alcohol use disorder. The conversation brings to light the unrealistic expectations placed on women, particularly mothers, in today's society. 3. **Path to Recovery:** Shauna's recount of her path back to sobriety, including the importance of treatment, support systems, and the 12-step program, offers hope and practical advice to others facing similar challenges. 4. **Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention:** Shauna talks about her decision to leave her corporate career to start her organization, focusing on helping others navigate recovery. She emphasizes the joy and fulfillment found in guiding others towards sobriety and the importance of creating a life that doesn't necessitate escape through substances. 5. **The Role of Outdoor Activities:** A significant part of Shauna's recovery and current lifestyle involves outdoor activities like gardening, hiking, and spending time by the fire pit. These activities offer her a sense of peace and an avenue to practice mindfulness, contributing to her overall well-being and sobriety. **Contact Information:** For those inspired by Shauna's story or seeking guidance on their journey to recovery, she can be reached at Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention for support and resources. ⁠https://www.returntojoyrecovery.com/⁠(https://www.returntojoyrecovery.com/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠A(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)pple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠T(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)iktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) Transcript Shauna Vick: [00:00:00] I know from the time I pick up a drink that I don't want it to stop. I always want one more. I was seeking that relief because I had lived for so many decades in sobriety. So let me, let me clarify. I was sober and working a program and then I was dry. Okay. I wasn't working any sort of program. I was being very self reliant and then I was in what I call prelapse mode and a lot of old behaviors. That aren't healthy behaviors for me were coming up and then I took that drink and I was in a relapse for about two and a half years and I could not understand why I could not get sober again. I was hopeless. I couldn't, I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades. Without alcohol, why could I not get back?[00:01:00] Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Graham Durgie and I'm the founder and CEO here at New Waters Recovery. Thank you for joining us on our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters. Today, we've got a very special guest, Shauna Vick. Shauna is a woman in long term recovery from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder Woman syndrome, Perfect wife, life and mother syndrome. Having decades of sobriety, Shauna experienced a devastating relapse and fought her way back to sobriety. After this experience, she decided to leave a successful decades long career as a software sales executive to found Return to Joy Recovery and Intervention. So that she could spend the second half of her life helping others navigate their way to recover from addiction and stay sober. Born and raised in Toronto, Canada. [00:02:00] Currently resides in North Carolina with her husband, daughter, and two Labradors. Her favorite pastime is to spend early mornings by the fire pit to meditate and start the day in nature, no matter how cold it is. After years and years of office life, constant cross country travel, her preferred place to be now is outside gardening, hiking, golfing, skiing, kayaking, or fly fishing. Most people know that if you're looking for her, you better check outside first. B. Reeves: Welcome to another episode of Finding New Waters. I am B Reeves. I'm the director of business development here at New Waters, sitting here with my colleague, Justin McClendon, who is our executive director. I'm just going to read the first paragraph of her bio, and then we'll go from there. Shawna, excuse me, Shawna McKenna Vick is a woman in long term recovery from alcohol use disorder, workaholism, Wonder Woman syndrome, Pinterest perfect wife, life, and mother syndrome. Welcome Shauna, and I want to start by just asking you, what is Wonder Woman Syndrome? Shauna Vick: Well, that was quite a mouthful. I know [00:03:00] that bio details quite a bit in that, but Wonder Woman Syndrome and Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother syndrome, I feel led me to my alcohol use disorder. I I'd had decades of sobriety B and I found myself on that hamster wheel of unattainable societal pressures from Pinterest I call it the Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother syndrome because you're on Pinterest. I was making, you know, flower arrangements with peeps peeps with, you know, those peeps for Easter that went in one vase and then the other because it all had to appear correctly. But I was dying on the inside trying to keep up. I was a full time Working mom, I traveled for work. I was a software sales executive. I was traveling every week. I wanted to make a magical life for my daughter. So I was also involved in all of her schooling and managing everything for her care. I was what I call a stay at home mom who worked [00:04:00] full time and traveled because I had this pressure that I put on myself that I, in order to be the perfect wife and mother. I had to do all the things and I couldn't ask for help and my life imploded. I had gotten into recovery very early in my in my adulthood and I, I follow the 12 steps and AA, I like to say AA gave me such a great life that it took me away from AA and I started to do everything on my own and started to really feel the societal pressure once I had my baby and I wanted to make, like I said, make life magical. So I became Wonder Woman or I thought I became Wonder Woman. Well, no. I actually thought I was, and I bought the costume. So I have the cape, I have the bodice, I was Wonder Woman for Halloween a few times. But it really felt like that, that I needed a super power just to live. [00:05:00] And when I was working full time, and managing all of those things, I found that I was becoming more and more empty. My cup was very, very empty. And because I had had alcohol use disorder early in my life, I knew that there was something out there that could help me to medicate myself. And I wasn't working a program, I wasn't taking care of myself. My mom was dying at the time and I was so overwhelmed. An example of what I would do is I traveled every week for work and on Sundays I would do all of the meal prep for my family. In individualized containers, would be in the fridge and freezer so that they didn't have to worry about cooking when I was gone. Because my level of mom guilt of not being there was so high, I had to take care of everything. And when I needed the relief, I turned back to alcohol. [00:06:00] I turned back to alcohol to give me that much needed relief. And I see it, I see it today. So many women, we need, we're, we're working full time, we're managing the house or stay at home. Moms who are super busy, believe me, they work just as many hours as working moms, working outside the home. Looking for that drink at the end of the day or some at 3 or some at 2 or 1 p. m. in the afternoon. So that their shoulders can release and that feel up B. Reeves: happens. It's funny because keeping up with the Joneses is As old as time. And so is alcoholism. But now that recovery and sobriety are more socially acceptable for lack of a better term, the pressure with the Pinterest perfect life and social media exacerbates the keeping up with the Joneses. And it's [00:07:00] almost like it keeps up with the accessibility to treatment and recovery. Does that make sense? Where mothers, while it's more and more acceptable and there's less stigma, it, but the pressure is. Is more severe because of social media, it seems like. Yes. Because I mean, I'm, I'm 46. I mean, I'm, my friends, you know, wives and my friends who are female are, you know, they all have kids and a lot of them are stay at home moms and I'm, I know this is a thing, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah. Shauna Vick: I think if I heard you correctly, understand correctly that yes, we have destigmatized treatment and seeking help to a point. To a point, yeah. To a point. Right. But it's very difficult to make that more mainstream when the pinking of alcohol has happened so much by the large, by big alcohol. Okay. We have all these women's drinks or these mommy wine clubs or getting [00:08:00] together with your, with your girlfriends afterwards, bringing the kids over, having a bottle of wine. per person, right? We're seeing a lot of that. And it's so normalized. Drinking this huge amount of wine is normalized because it's, we're, we're telling moms, these are, like I said, the unattainable expectations or societal expectations and that they need to have this wine to get through. It's no different than mother's little helper. If you think about it, it's no different than Mother's Little Helper that we were giving to women in the 50s and 60s. And yet, I was speaking, it's been really on my mind lately because I was speaking with a therapist earlier this week, and she's seeing a lot of women for anxiety and depression. And I just said, well, do you find that they drink a lot? And she said, well, we know, yes, yes, we do. But we have to get to that point to uncover and to [00:09:00] help people realize that drinking a bottle of wine a night is actually Not normal. Right. Right. Right. If we look to what the CDC or the National Institute of Health states what recommended drinks and I'm going to get this wrong because, you know, my brain at my age doesn't hold statistics perfectly, but let's just call it that it's three. Drinks. I think it's three servings. Yeah. Three servings of alcohol a week. Mm hmm. For women. A week. A week. A week. Mm hmm. Three servings. That's one four ounce glass. Let's see. Let's say that Justin and I are wrong and say it's seven servings of alcohol a week. Let's, let's err on the side of more. So, four ounces, because I believe it's a four ounce pour that they're talking about. That's a small wine glass, not a goblet, seven times a week. That is, [00:10:00] might be a bottle and a half over the course of a week. I know it's actually not that high, Justin. I think you're right that it's about three glasses a week. Let's just say that was it. If we were to say to just an average group of ladies who meet a couple times a week to have wine and have the kids over and share dinner, and they go through three bottles for a group of however many, what if we were to ask them, can you stick to, The answer might be, well, why would we want to? Right? We're not in any trouble. We're not getting into trouble. I'm not an alcoholic. No, and that is not what I'm saying. Right. Right. I'm not labeling anybody. Mm hmm. But are we self empowering? Are we normalizing it so much that women are self medicating to just get through not realizing that drinking alcohol with anxiety is like pouring gasoline on [00:11:00] fire? Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. And depression for that matter. And depression, yes. A hundred percent. And, uh You know, it's interesting what's coming up for me as you're saying that is, you know, this idea of like the relief, right? Just like you said, you experienced for yourself. And that's what I'm hearing, right? Is that like, they don't think it's a bad thing or maybe it's a, it's a time for them to socialize and things like that. But I do think there is that element of. You know, they're engaging in that to seek relief from, you know, all the other things that are going on in life, right? The stress, the anxiety, the trying to, you know, the keeping up with the Joneses, or the, as you say, the Pinterest perfect lifestyle. And it's just It's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. It's not sustainable and I think it is true that like a person that is engaging in that level of, you know, just continued motion and trying to keep everything up and so forth, you do have to have relief. There has to be some kind of relief point there. But when someone starts to find that in alcohol or [00:12:00] other drugs, I mean, we also see this with, you know, people starting to abuse like benzodiazepines or things like that. And not to knock like other medications, but even other you know, being prescribed other, you know, depression or anxiety medications because same thing needing that relief from, from all of this, this chaos that they're trying to manage when the reality is. is if we maybe could change the chaos or change how we're living life, then we could find relief in a different way, I think. Right? Shauna Vick: Right. Exactly. And that's, you know, um, I love what you said that the sustainable, it's not sustainable. You know, that was the point that I, I couldn't quite get to, I couldn't sustain it. And, You are on, on a hamster wheel, you're always going and then you're in perpetual motion. You've painted a great picture, Justin, in just of how we are as women and in life it can be men too, you know, who [00:13:00] need to just take the edge off when they get home from work. So I'm going to pour a couple of belts of scotch or bourbon or whatever and have a few beers while I'm cooking things. So this is not limited. to women, but it's this normalization of overusing alcohol. And then the prescription benzos, right? How many people do I know that have been prescribed Xanax to help with their anxiety that is caused by this perpetual motion that they're feeding with? Drinking a lot and not sleeping. And so they need something to help with their anxiety because work pressures are getting to them. So if they take a Xanax during the day and then, you know, it helps to settle them through the day and then they're going home and pouring themselves the first glass of wine, it is just, then you're in perpetual motion too of that cycle. So here you're trying to, you're trying to keep up with this, the unrealistic expectations that [00:14:00] society has put. Or that we put on ourselves, right? That we've put on ourselves and you're trying to manage it, the feelings here. So in, when I'm coaching women, I often will say, you know, it's not, don't think of it as that we're taking alcohol away. This is an additive process, right? What do we need to add back in? What do you need to add back into your life? So you can manage those feelings. So you can find something different. So you can be present to your children. I mean, that I think is the greatest heartbreak of all is that you have women, parents who are together and it's, you see it in neighborhoods. And this is, I'm not judging. You just see it in neighborhoods. The parents all get together, they're all having some drinks, the kids are over here playing. What happened to, I actually love my kids and want to be present to them, and have the kids present with [00:15:00] us so that they can see us watching them. Yeah. But we're unable to because we're looking for the relief from all the other things that we're, we're B. Reeves: going through. Justin Mclendon: Right. Yeah, absolutely. B. Reeves: So how did you, so you work with women, you've mentioned your own struggles with alcoholism and your recovery. How did you go from being a traveling software executive, super mom, wonder woman, trying to have the Pinterest perfect life to now being an interventionist coach and sober companion. Everything you do. How did you make that transition? Shauna Vick: Well, my life imploded, as I said, and let me tell you, when I say in my bio, it'll say something like a devastating relapse. I kid you not. It was a devastating relapse for me. Tell us about it. I will. The, the, I have no problem sharing my story. I have no problem recovering out loud. I feel that I, you know, [00:16:00] I'm grateful that I had another chance at life. I will often say that you don't have to hit rock bottom to seek help or get recovery. That is not my story. I hit rock bottom and it was so bottom. So I realized that. You know, I had not realized, I know from the time I pick up a drink that I don't want it to stop. I always want one more. I was seeking that relief because I had lived for so many decades in sobriety. So let me, let me clarify. I was sober. Working a program and then I was dry. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. I wasn't working any sort of program. I was being very self-reliant. And then I was in what I call prolapse mode. Mm-Hmm. . Sure. And a lot of old behaviors that aren't healthy behaviors for me were coming up. And then I took that drink and I was in a relapse for about two and a half years and. I could not [00:17:00] understand why I could not get sober again. I was hopeless. I couldn't, I just couldn't understand that I'd lived decades. Without alcohol, why could I not get back there with, and the disease does progress. I mean, I, I have been on other podcasts and you know, I've heard other people talking about a continuum of alcohol use. You know, you have alcohol use, maybe the social or moderate drinker. Who can actually stick to the three drinks a week or doesn't even have to think about sticking to three drinks a week because they can take it or leave it and they don't. And then you have, you know, and I'm not a clinician, so this is the Shauna alcohol use continuum. It's not written anywhere. Alcohol use, misuse, abuse. dependence and addiction. Well, you know, as through my life, my disease progressed, even though I wasn't drinking and I was an alcoholic early on a very high bottom. I just walked into an AA meeting and realized I need to change my relationship with alcohol. I was successful at work. I was a [00:18:00] single woman. I just moved to the States from Canada and I was transferred there. There was, I had no consequences that had happened, but I knew that it Alcohol was actually holding me back. And so I knew because I also come by it genetically my mother was an alcoholic, my grandfather was an alcoholic that I, I just knew that I had a disordered relationship with alcohol. One was too many for me because two's never enough. And so When I first entered the rooms of AA or I first sought help, I was what I would call very high bottom. With the disease progressing, I was in and out of treatment. Well, let me tell you a bit about how I started drinking. When I was on a business trip, so it's very safe, my husband wasn't there and I thought, oh, you know, I haven't drank in however many years, I'm, who cares, I'm just going to have one. Well, of course, I couldn't stop drinking that night. And I thought it was just a [00:19:00] slip. I thought it was a one off, an outlier. Like, oh, okay, so I never really did regain control of being able to. But it felt good and I got that relief and I felt different. I had been so uncomfortable in my skin and in my life. I wanted to change the way I felt. I knew alcohol could do that for me. So it wasn't for about six or eight Weeks later, maybe 12 weeks later until I picked up again. Hmm. And then it was maybe four weeks. And then it was three weeks, then it was two weeks, then it was regular. Now you have to remember that I hadn't drank. Everyone knew me as Sober Shauna. I was always the designated driver. I never drank. I was always very open about that I was in recovery. So I had to drink in my closet in my car. I had to drink in secret. And we know that secrets do keep us sick. And I had to. I had to. I couldn't let [00:20:00] people know I was drinking. I mean, they eventually figured it out. But I hid it as well as I could until I couldn't. And I had to take a leave of absence from work and I I did a a gradually escalating treatment. I started with an IOP and it wasn't enough for me. And I went away to an inpatient treatment and I took a long term leave of absence because I knew I wanted to get my recovery back. And I had some bumps through the way, Picked up a couple of times and ended up, you know, in that course of two and a half years, I probably only drank about seven months. But because when I picked up, I went right down to that very dark rock bottom place and I had to be separated from alcohol in order not to drink. So I, you know, I, Went to treatment three times, I lived in sober living for four months, I did every IOP in the Raleigh area, I just moved around. And I also had some [00:21:00] sober time and I went to 12 step program and I had some sponsors and I just, I wouldn't give up. Although there were times that I felt like giving up, I was hopeless at times just saying if I picked up again and I was down in that dark place, you know, I tried to kill myself a couple of times, you know, because I thought I can't keep doing this to my family. There has to be, like, something has to happen. Right. And. The miracle happened when the miracle happened. It took what it took. You know, in retrospect, Justin, you can appreciate this. The first time I went, I went for 30 days. It was recommended that I stay longer. I stayed 45 days. We know that 30 days of treatment is an insurance not a scam, an insurance recommendation based on insurance. My total time in inpatient treatment upon reflection is 90 days. Hmm. How about that? Over the course of two and a half years, but it was 90 days and I haven't picked up a drink since after that last trip and I'm very active in my own [00:22:00] program and I took the time off. I took the time off from work. You asked how I made the change. Sorry, little ADHD, so I'm going a little tangential here. Took the time off from work, took a leave of absence. I did resign from that position. We made a family decision that I, you know, wasn't going to go back to to selling software, not because I couldn't do it, but because I wanted the second half of my life to mean something. B. Reeves: I get it. I sold software before I was. We came to this field as well. Shauna Vick: Yeah, because I just wanted to be able to give back. And I, I loved selling software. I loved my life. I loved everything. But we made some really difficult decisions. I would no longer be able to do that Pinterest perfect wife, life and mother. Have that Pinterest perfect life, we made some financial decisions and sacrifices for me to be able to do that to take the year off, it did coincide with COVID I was able to homeschool my daughter for a year, and I [00:23:00] did all of my certifications that year as well for coaching and for sober transport and sober companion so I spent time Thank you. Transitioning by doing that in that year and then more recently I became a certified interventionist. So that's how I made the jump. It was, it was a risk. And I'm grateful that I did it because I'm able to see where I can help people. And I, you know, I'll go to the ends of the earth for my clients do a lot of value added services around around that. I said to someone last night, I said, I feel like. What I provide to my clients is the Cliff Notes version of how to get and stay sober because I tried it for so long. For those two and a half years, I tried everything. Sober companion. I tried a coach. I tried treatment. I tried IOP. And they all failed. Contributed to me getting well, oh and therapists and psychiatrists, so that's how I made, but it was, I got to tell you B, it [00:24:00] was, there are some sacrifices that come with it, but I'm no longer driven by that need to keep up and, you know, being happy, joyous, free, a simpler life has has really benefited me. I spend time in my garden now out by my fire pit. It's one of the lines I use my coach. How do you create a life that you no longer need a vacation from? How do you create a life that, you know, not longer need to get relief from what needs to change? Yeah, B. Reeves: I hear, well, you know, working in this field often, you know, especially when I'm out on the road doing more of the outreach part. And, and also here, you know, I just, sometimes I'll. Over have this sensation. Like, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm working. And it's a familiar feeling. Cause I used to feel it five and a half, six years ago because I wasn't, and I was supposed to be, but I was like still asleep or, you know, telling somebody I was somewhere [00:25:00] else or whatever. But the feeling of like, I'm not working, but I'm actually at work working is great. Because that means I love what I'm doing. So absolutely. And it is fun. And we'd like the vacation part, you know, they're limited in this field, but you know, it's you know, it's a, it's a pull. It's attractive to. be able to help people is part of part of our work. So Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's it's great stuff. I mean, to be able to, to work in a field where we get to provide value to people and help hopefully, you know, guide people to living a better, a better life, a better way of living to where they can have some of that relief incorporated into their day to day existences. I mean, I can't think of anything. better to do for work, to be honest with you. A little biased, but. Shauna Vick: No, I, I'm with you, Justin. Just to see someone be able to have that interior joy or delight with simpler things and to be able to take that deep breath. [00:26:00] And pause, maybe they've started a mindfulness practice, maybe they're doing something. And I was at a lunch today with actually your previous guest on the podcast. And I said to him, I said, I used to function at such a frenetic pace. I was, you know, and you probably saw it at the beginning of the podcast because it was amped up and ready to do it. And then, you know, I. Take a deep breath, and I slow down, and I'm much more deliberate in my speech, in my actions throughout the day. And I credit that to my mindfulness practices, right? I spend an hour and a half in prayer and meditation in the morning to calm me, to ground me, to center me, so that I can have the space and be present where I am. Whereas before it was always, what else do I need to do? What do I need to do? And I got to get this done, got to get this done. And it's this frenetic pace. And I, I don't live like that anymore. And maybe that's how it feels like you don't need, because you do need a vacation from that. You cannot, it is unsustainable to stay at that frenetic [00:27:00] pace. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, B. Reeves: absolutely. But on the meditation subject, you know, I I tell people this a lot is, you know, we still, we all still need some kind of relief. And the truth is, I still. Like I still like to feel good, but I just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen anymore. And so, you know, prayer and meditation and, you know, a program of recovery. But, you know, I meditate twice a day every day and have for almost the entire time I've been sober. And you know, it's like, and when I'm spiritually fit and some days, even though I do the same thing every day, there are certain, you know, sometimes I just wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Sometimes there's something in external force that's a little more powerful than I want it to be or whatever it is. But when I'm spiritually fit and on the beam, as we say, all that, you know, Pinterest, perfect life stuff is just means nothing to me. But when I'm rattled, then I can start looking at my friends who are like, you know, building a second home at the beach or whatever, and start really judging my comparing my insides to other people's outsides. But being spiritually [00:28:00] fit, I'm able to, when I, when I'm really on the beam. And all that is just completely meaningless to me. Shauna Vick: And Oscar Wilde said, comparison is the thief of joy. Right. Love that. Love that. That is exactly where I go to be. As soon as I start to feel like I'm losing my joy, it's usually because I'm comparing. And so I'm not settled inside. And I love what you said about, I still do things to make myself feel good. You know, one of the things that brings me so much good feeling is. I go outside by my fire pit that I built myself. I dug up in the ground, built this fire pit in the coldest of mornings and I light my fire and throughout the winter I will be out there in the middle of the afternoon just for an hour for whatever reason. It just makes me feel good sitting, maybe because I'm Canadian and I just love being outside in the cold with the [00:29:00] warm fire. But there's something about it and I I figured it was very meditative for me. So it was like getting in some extra meditation time. And I don't know if you've ever seen the Muse headband for meditation. It gives neurofeedback. And last week I was curious to see if I was in a meditative state when I was out there tending the fire. Because Why do I feel so good after it? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I'm not talking to people. I'm not whatever. I mean, if people want to come over, absolutely. But I feel so good. One is the nature. And it's scientifically proven that when we sit in nature, it does impact our okay, Shauna, Shauna, not the non Shauna clinician quoting stuff, but something about hormones or something. Raises our level, maybe it's serotonin. But I wore the Muse headband while I was just tending the fire, flipping down. It's great for people with ADHD because you're always trying to figure out how to set the fire so the flames are building. But it was, I was in a pure meditative state, in a calm [00:30:00] state. And you hear the neurofeedback of birds when you're in that state. And that is why. That is one of the reasons that I think I feel really good. But. That's my number one go to is get outside. I have, you know, winter vegetables growing in my garden now, just going out and seeing how they're doing and, yes, talking to them. It just makes me feel good. But it's, it's amazing, Bea, isn't it? When you're spiritually fit, when you're not self medicating. with alcohol and drugs that there are simpler things that can make you feel good. Sitting with my daughter and playing a hand of cards, okay, it's not like a big dopamine rush, but it is more of, you know, the balancing hormones, the serotonin and just the good feeling. The good feeling body chemicals. Absolutely. And I couldn't have done that. Couldn't do that when I was drinking. Right. Right. Exactly. Right? Because [00:31:00] all I was thinking about is, when can I get her to sleep so that I can have more? Right. Absolutely. And what did I miss? Thank God it was only two and a half years. Justin Mclendon: For sure. And we don't have to live like that anymore, right? So coaching, if you don't mind, if I shift gears with you, I'd love to hear a little bit about so as you mentioned, so coaching sober companion what else is it? Interventions. And interventions. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what does that look like for you? What kind of clients do you serve? What is, what does that look, what does the work Shauna Vick: look like for you? What does the work look like for me? Well, so we've been, I've been doing a lot. More interventions than the coaching and that's just, you know, when people are coming out of treatment they are usually doing some some sort of intensive outpatient, they're seeing a therapist, they might be in a 12 step program to have an extra layer of support, not always necessary. So the coaching I don't do a lot of that. type of coaching, the recovery coaching or sober coaching that I [00:32:00] do are more with the gray area drinkers. Just like I was saying, like say the women who are using too much wine may not feel like they're abusing it, but want to change. So they're in this gray area on the continuum. So do some coaching with them again, more of the additive. So what do you need to add back in your life? What is, what is your ideal life? look like, how, you know, how do you stay present with your children and your family? How do you manage your stress? And we look for those things. So that's what the coaching, the other coaching that I've done a lot of recently is for young adults or emerging adults, college age youth. They're all the kids of my friends. They say, Shawna, you got to give some coaching. And so many. cohorts of children lost children, adults, young adults lost so much during COVID. They lost their ability to do even life skills, planning, organizing, interacting. And so, I do that life skills emerging adults. So what do I do next or finding your purpose?[00:33:00] My, my niece and nephew who are college age, we're sharing with. The, their family and friends over Christmas, how lucky they were that they had a life coach for an aunt because they could call me and I do a lot of coaching with them and, and they were grateful for that. But that's why I'm invested in that age group because I see it in my nieces and nephews. So that's the coaching side and the companion. I am a live in sober companion, usually for women who are chronic relapsers like myself and the, purpose is to really help them to establish their life in recovery and wrap their real life around their recovered life. What happened to me is I came home and it was like, mom's home, Shauna's home. Okay. Everything goes back to normal. And I had to wrap my recovery around my life. Doesn't, that's, that is unsustainable. Right? Recovery first. Live next. So I do, I've just launched for 2024. The [00:34:00] 24, or pardon me, the 72 hour transition companion and specific for women coming out of treatment who may have been a couple of times. Mm-Hmm. . And for that extremely vulnerable time. Yes. That first 72 hours when you leave the bubble of treatment. And you're going home and when you leave, when you leave your house to go to treatment, you've been in your disease and your my life is a blank show. It's did you like that? You didn't have to beat me, beat me, beep. So it's a, it's a. A really you're in a bad spot and you have to go home to that and the shame associated with that. It can unravel a lot of the great work that you did in treatment where you were surrounded by staff, therapists, other women that you processed with out on the patio. You know, if things, you had a bad phone call home, you might not have been able to see your therapist, but you could process with people. How do you go from that? All of that support to [00:35:00] back where you were last in your disease. Justin Mclendon: I mean, this, B. Reeves: that 72 hours is so crucial. I don't know what, I'll never know the answer to this, but. I got home from treatment at 10 30 in the morning on a Wednesday and a guy took me to a meeting at noon and then some other friends I knew took me to a meeting that night and I, if I hadn't gone to a meeting that same day, I just don't know what would happen because I, I just, it's so important for it to be a continuum, whether it's, you know, going from detox to res to IOP or just from treatment to, The room's a recovery, but I, I think that is absolutely a great idea to have that 72 hour landing pad, Shauna Vick: if you will. It is. It really is. And so I pick up, we pick up the women at treatment, travel home with them, and we're there for that first 72 hours. The first trip to the grocery store. Yeah. First meetings, what meeting are we going to today? You don't have to walk in there alone. That's [00:36:00] huge. It is huge. So it's been very well received by the treatment centers. And, you know, considering how much we invest in treatment, it's a, it's a small investment because hiring a sober companion for three weeks or four weeks is daunting. It's as much as the cost of treatment and not saying I wouldn't do it. And I've done many engagements like that, but I really think this 72 hours is so much more consumable. And so much more helpful. So I'm doing that. And then of course the interventions is the invitational style, a gradually escalating style where the whole family is involved. It's a six month contract. And we work with the family and the person of concern. It's not an ambush style intervention. It is not surprised the, the person of concern is invited to. participate, they may or may not participate, but it's really about healing the family and the intergenerational trauma so that everyone gets well and we can pass recovery down to the next generation. So it's the arise model for interventions. And then [00:37:00] the sober companion, the 72 hour transition companion, and you know, we provide transportation. To and from just takes the burden off the family to have to transport their loved one to treatment. It really, and I mean the emotional burden, the emotional burden, I don't want to go. I don't really want to go. It just, it eliminates all that. It's a benefit to the family and then the coaching. And so with that, with the 72 hour transition companion, I also will meet with them weekly. By Zoom if they're not local or meet with them weekly for three months. So that is just all part of it to, you know, so that they always have someone on their, on their team because our care teams go wide and deep. So to have an additional person, Oh, and I do, the other thing is do is event companions. So if someone has a wedding. or a board meeting or whatever, or a sales meeting and then travel, I'll go and become a bit of a [00:38:00] chameleon. Oh, I'm just I've done a few weddings. Oh yeah, I'm just, they'll just say, Oh, this is an old friend of mine from Raleigh. And I'm just there with the, with the mother of the bride or as a wedding guest, additional wedding guests. So that's that's been really fun. Justin Mclendon: That's really smart. I mean, that is really smart because I mean, how many times, right? I mean, gosh, how many times have I heard? How fearful someone is about you, you name it, right? Exactly. Those things, especially, especially, you got the champagne toast. I mean, all the various situations that people get just really, really afraid of. How are they going to navigate that? You know? So, I mean, I think that's just ingenious, right? To, to have somebody there in your corner. You know, just incognito, just there for support and if you need them, I mean, that's, that's great. Shauna Vick: Yeah. That's really good. Then I haven't done this, but executive companions for back to work, you know, um, how I position it is that I'm just a consultant and they just say they're a consultant and because you be, you could do that too. We've been in business for so many [00:39:00] years. We can easily you know, fake our way through or fit right in and we're just, they just hired me for a project and it doesn't have to be, but it's someone there who you can process with through the day. Just, just having someone in your corner, you don't have to do anything. You just have someone there in your corner in the most stressful times. Justin Mclendon: Cause I mean, for a lot of people, I mean, that is the most stressful part of trying to, you know, figure out how you're going to navigate the new life and recovery is. Those type of things, right? How am I going to deal with my family? How am I going to do these events? How am I going to go back to work? You know, all of those things. So, I mean, I just feel like that I can see where that would be extremely helpful for a lot of people. So, that's great. I'm really glad that you're doing that, Shauna Vick: Sean. And I'm loving it too. You know, like I, I love it. Like you said, there's not a lot of vacation time because even when we're on vacation, we're getting calls, you know, there was a survey on LinkedIn that said, well, you take calls from clients over the holidays. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like it's, it's crazy. It's the most difficult time for clients, of course I will. [00:40:00] And my family is so grateful that I'm sober that they are like, go, go take your calls. Or if a sponsee calls, I sponsor women in the AA program, if a sponsee calls right at dinner time, the whole family goes. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. You know, no one has ever said anything about that because they know in order to keep it, I have to give it away. But I called my company Return to Joy Recovery. Return to Joy. And the reason for that is that I had lost my joy when I was seeking that Pinterest perfect life. I had always been known as Happy Shiny Shauna and I didn't feel it. I could still fake it to a point, but I didn't feel it inside. And that's the difference between happiness and joy and that just joy for living. And I spent time, I bought my company website. a year before I relapsed because I knew I wanted to eventually go into recovery coaching and into this. And so I bought Return to Joy Recovery before I ever picked up my first drink. And isn't that cool? Yeah, [00:41:00] that's cool. Because I really wanted to return to joy. That was when I was in that pre lapse mode. I knew that I wasn't joyful. I didn't have that peace in my heart. And so that's why I named it to Return to Joy, so I can help people navigate their path back to joy. to a joy filled life. Justin Mclendon: I love that. I love that. And we'll also make sure to put all of your contact information, social media handles, all that in the, in the show notes so that everybody can access that as Shauna Vick: well. I try to stay current on content with social media, but I have a 15 year old who I say needs to stay off her phone, and so I try to model that, and then I find that I have to be on it, you know, to Stay relevant and stuff, but I I do have social media handles and have a website and, and I always will take any call. That's the other thing. You know, people get are afraid to call an interventionist because they're afraid that it's going to be this big deal. We have hijacked that term in behavioral health, but [00:42:00] that's what it is. And really we intervene with each other on a daily basis. We might ask someone to eat healthier, a loved one to eat healthier. That's an intervention for intervening. And I don't want everyone, anyone to ever be afraid to pick up the phone just to chat. Like call me if you think you have a problem. If you think you may have a disorder relationship. It's a judgment free, you know, call. Judgment free 30 minutes. Let's chat about it. I don't want anyone to feel alone like they have no one to B. Reeves: call. What you just said reminded me of the two best pieces of advice I got when I started working in this field. Number one, don't let my job be my program of recovery. They can complement each other, but they are separate. Correct. And then number two is always answer the phone. Because I get so much joy out of getting a call when there's no way this person is going to make sense for our program. Right. Giving them, sharing a contact, and giving them your number, giving them whoever's number. It is, it's just a great feeling to be able to at least help, even if it's not going to be [00:43:00] like, they're coming here. But that, I mean, that's what so much of this job is about, is literally sharing. Phone numbers with each other. Shauna Vick: Right, exactly. And we do it, we do it joyfully. It might mean, like someone said to me, Sean, I was going to call you up, I was going to pass an intervention over to you. You know, that's from a business perspective, you don't necessarily want to change over, but he's like, it wasn't a fit for me. I think it would be a better fit for you. And I do the same thing. I had someone call it. I'm so sorry, this is way out of my scope. I'm going to refer it to someone else because we always want people to have the right, and we know how to navigate through. Exactly. Even if you don't need an intervention, you know you want to go to treatment, but you don't know where you want to go. Exactly. Because we're the ones who are doing the research, right? Right. B. Reeves: We're the ones who know us. I mean, I just always want to encourage them to call us. Instead of trying to do their own research because that can end in Justin Mclendon: total disaster. Total disaster. I can't. You know, I was just having the same conversation with someone last night at the dinner in that, you know, the treatment community, I guess if we want to call it that, [00:44:00] like nationally, is, is huge, right? I mean, there's so many treatment centers, there's so many people involved in this work. But the, the funny thing is that like, it is still so small, right? Everybody knows everybody, everybody knows what each, each program and each person is doing and what the specializations are. And that just feels so good to me that as, as we're saying, right, you get those phone calls and. He also knew who's doing good work and who's not doing good work. And just being able to get that person connected to where they need to go so that they have a fighting chance at having some change happen. I mean, it's just, I, I can't think of anything else that I would rather be, be doing for B. Reeves: sure. Definitely. I was talking to a personal friend this morning. I've known my for my entire life. And I, he's got a situation with a friend and coworker who, who needs help. And he keeps just profusely thanking me and saying, I'm like, man, you have no idea this. This helps me if nothing else. This helps me say so sober one more day. And it's just, I mean, it's, I hate to say it's fun, but it kind of is because it feels so [00:45:00] good just to be. Doing anything we can to, to help people. Shauna Vick: Absolutely. Definitely. And I, you know, I have a call to action. If there's any women out there that are drinking a bottle of wine a night, just give me a call. Yeah. Doesn't mean we're going to have you stop. I'm just curious. I'm just curious. You know, if you're drinking a bottle of wine a night, what are you not doing? What are you missing? Right? Let's see if there's something we can help you pull back in because I'm just gonna say it And this is not just a bottle of wine a night. It's too much to be drinking. It's too much Justin Mclendon: and if you're drinking and I'll throw this out there because I think there's a big misconception and Not to start this whole conversation back up again. But as you mentioned, I think social media media. I mean, we have a lot of shows out there now, not to kind of call anything out, but that really glamorizes drinking alcohol use. I mean, it's just very mainstream. I mean, you see it everywhere. And bottle of wine a day, you are going to experience withdrawal symptoms [00:46:00] from that. You really are like you, you're going to need some medical assistance to stop, discontinue that drinking. And I think a lot of people, don't know that, they don't realize that, they just see it as, you know, this is, this is normal, this has been normalized, this is a routine for me, it's not a problem, I haven't had a DUI, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is, is like when it reaches that volume and you're doing it consistently, it is a Shauna Vick: medical problem. It is a medical problem and people joke around about having the shakes in the morning. They joke around about having the shakes in the morning, right? Oh, it's no big deal, I just drank too much last night. It actually is a big deal. It Justin Mclendon: absolutely B. Reeves: is. And the, the normalization factor and, and it, you know, I, I knew that I partied pretty hard, but I, but, but the people I grew up around and went to school with, it was, it was normal the way we behaved. I remember one time I was I was talking to one of my best friends on a Saturday after I'd been at a rehearsal dinner for a wedding the night before and he was asking me how it was. I was like, yeah, standard. I drank 25 vodka [00:47:00] sodas. Just sort of kidding, but realized that I was completely serious. And then, you know, it's funny, he's actually now sober now for a few years, too. It's amazing. But we still joke about the 25 vodka soda thing and how we thought it was normal because it was for us. But that is so far from normal. I mean, that is so far from normal. Shauna Vick: Right. And I, Justin, I don't think we hear that enough, too, about The withdrawal and how difficult it is, especially if you're also taking prescribed Xanax, right? You're taking a prescription drug from which you need actually to medically withdraw from, which is why I'm grateful, you know, for new waters, because I've referred a few clients here to have such a phenomenal. Place here in Raleigh and even if you don't live in Raleigh to come here because of the way you address the mental health Aspects you do the assessments the mental health assessment the alcohol assessment you can really it's a really great launching pad It's a really great launching pad, and I know it's you know [00:48:00] But I, I do fear for people. That's what I'm saying. If you're drinking a bottle of wine at night, call me, but don't stop. Don't stop drinking. I'm not going to have you stop. Right. But just call me. Yeah, just call me. Let's just talk about it. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. So again, we'll put all your stuff in the show notes, but since you're giving that offer to people, do you want to share your number now on the podcast? Oh, sure. Shauna Vick: It's 919. 867 1505. And that's a number where you can talk or text and yeah, call me. I have no problem. It's a Google voice number so that you know. B. Reeves: Well, Shauna, you I'm so happy for all that you're doing, because when I first met you, you were doing more just the coaching, but now to see that you're doing interventions and just you just, it's amazing. I'm really happy to see what you're doing and we love working with you. So thank you so much for being here today. Yes. Thank you. Shauna Vick: You know, I usually would say this at the beginning, but I am, I'm really honored to be here and to be part of, I've [00:49:00] loved listening to all of your podcasts and all of your guests and how just transparent and real you address the issues. So thank you. Thank you. And Justin, it's great. I've known you for so many years. It is, it's great to be able to sit here and share this experience with you. Likewise. Thank Justin Mclendon: you. Likewise. It, it really warms my heart to be sitting here with you, Shauna, and having this conversation. I mean, you do not help. Can we, can we tell them? Can Shauna Vick: we tell them? You can tell them. Yes. Is that okay? Go for it. So, when I relapsed my first therapist was Justin and I, I do say that Justin saved my life because I was hopeless and I needed a higher level of care than I was getting and he introduced me to the treatment center where I did go. And so I, he facilitated me getting well and he stuck with me. And not only that, I was sharing this. With someone that hit you were [00:50:00] so unconditional in your regard or your support for me. I never felt alienated. I never felt like I, yes, I knew I'd made a mistake. I was self flagellating enough and you didn't have to do it for me. But it was that unconditional. Therapeutic love in a therapist way that unconditional positive regard say that allowed me to have the space to seek getting well as opposed to continuously bashing myself. You just, I knew I would never give up, but you also never gave up on me. And that's why I do for my clients. I will never give up on them if they continue to like. Clawing after getting well, trying to get well. If you're not going to get, I will work as hard as you. I will never give up. And that's what I really felt from you, Justin. I you played a big part in my sobriety and recovery. Justin Mclendon: I appreciate it. I was grateful [00:51:00] to be a part of it. And Shawna, I could not be any more proud of you. So good. Shauna Vick: It is nice to still hear that Justin Mclendon: people are proud of you. That's so proud. Yeah. Thanks. Well, Shauna, thank you. Thank Shauna Vick: you. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Great. Awesome. Thank you. Bye.

In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sarah Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, < Back to Episodes Redefining Addiction Treatment Dr. Sara Koenig : Compassion, Transparency, and Trauma-Informed Care 44:17 min | Dr. Sara Koenig | Finding New Waters In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sara Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, setting realistic recovery goals, and building supportive family dynamics. Her approach is rooted in honesty, transparency, and a commitment to fostering real, lasting change in her clients’ lives. Subscribe “Addiction happens in the shadows, and to come out and ask for help is one of the bravest acts a person can do.” -Dr. Sara Koenig Show Notes In this enlightening episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with Joanna Lilley, a Nationally Certified Counselor and the founder of Lilley Consulting. Joanna shares her unique approach to working with young adults and their families, helping them navigate the challenges of mental health, substance use, and academic setbacks. With over a decade of experience in wilderness therapy and higher education, Joanna discusses the importance of taking the time to truly understand each client’s needs and matching them with the right resources. She emphasizes the value of transparency, honesty, and the delicate balance between being supportive and direct in guiding young adults toward success. ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and episode overview. - **[01:00] Meet Joanna Lilley**: Joanna introduces herself and her work as a therapeutic consultant. - **[04:00] From Counseling to Consulting**: Joanna discusses her transition from working directly with young adults in wilderness therapy and higher education to consulting with families. - **[08:00] The Importance of Transparency**: Why honesty and transparency are crucial in building trust with both young adults and their families. - **[13:00] Challenges Facing Young Adults**: Joanna shares the trends she’s observed in mental health, substance use, and the impact of COVID-19 on young adults. - **[18:00] Tailoring the Approach**: How Joanna customizes her consulting services to fit the unique needs of each young adult and family. - **[24:00] The Role of Families in Recovery**: The importance of parental involvement and setting realistic expectations for success. - **[30:00] Final Thoughts and Resources**: Joanna provides advice for families and shares how they can get in touch with her for support. ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Personalized Consulting**: Joanna’s approach to understanding the full picture of each young adult’s situation before recommending resources or treatment options. 2. **Transparency in Consulting**: The importance of being honest and direct with both the young adult and their family to ensure effective outcomes. 3. **Trends in Young Adult Challenges**: The increasing prevalence of anxiety, OCD, body dysmorphia, and cannabis use among young adults, particularly in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic. 4. **Family Involvement**: How Joanna works with families to ensure they are aligned and supportive throughout the recovery or academic process. 5. **Cultural and Geographic Considerations**: The importance of considering a young adult’s background and preferences when matching them with programs. ### Guest Bio: **Joanna Lilley** **Founder, Lilley Consulting** Joanna Lilley holds a Master’s degree in Counseling from West Virginia University and is a Nationally Certified Counselor. With over ten years of experience working with struggling adolescents and young adults in wilderness therapy and higher education, Joanna now operates Lilley Consulting, where she serves as an independent matchmaker between young adults and the resources they need to succeed. Her balanced approach, combining empathy with directness, has helped many families navigate complex challenges in mental health and addiction. ### Resources Mentioned: - **Lilley Consulting:** https://lilleyconsulting.com (https://lilleyconsulting.com) ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)) ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608)) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)(https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)) - **Google Podcast:** [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw)(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw%5D(https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw)?authuser=0) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. #YoungAdultRecovery #MentalHealthSupport #TherapeuticConsulting #JoannaLilley #LilleyConsulting #FindingNewWatersPodcast #FamilySupport #SuccessIsSubjective Show Notes In this compelling episode of *Finding New Waters*, Dr. Sarah Koenig, founder and medical director of Triangle Wellness and Recovery, shares her journey from academic medicine to addiction recovery. Dr. Koenig discusses her philosophy of trauma-informed, person-centered care and the need for compassionate, stigma-free treatment that truly meets each patient where they are. Drawing on years of experience, Dr. Koenig emphasizes the importance of addressing shame, setting realistic recovery goals, and building supportive family dynamics. Her approach is rooted in honesty, transparency, and a commitment to fostering real, lasting change in her clients’ lives. ### Timestamps: - **[00:00] Introduction**: Welcome and episode overview. - **[01:00] Meet Dr. Sarah Koenig**: Dr. Koenig shares her career path from academic medicine to addiction treatment. - **[04:00] Trauma and Addiction**: Why trauma-informed care is essential in treating addiction. - **[08:00] Overcoming Stigma**: The power of reducing shame and stigma for sustainable recovery. - **[12:00] Guilt vs. Shame in Recovery**: Dr. Koenig explains how guilt can be constructive, while shame can hinder healing. - **[18:00] Family Involvement**: How family dynamics and setting boundaries play critical roles in recovery. - **[24:00] Person-Centered Care**: The importance of respecting each patient’s story and adapting care to meet their needs. - **[30:00] The Power of Honest Communication**: Why transparency and open dialogue are key to successful treatment. - **[36:00] Final Thoughts and Resources**: Dr. Koenig shares advice and information on how to reach Triangle Wellness and Recovery. ### Key Points Discussed: 1. **Trauma-Informed Approach**: The necessity of addressing trauma to fully support addiction recovery. 2. **Reducing Shame and Stigma**: Dr. Koenig’s insights into the destructive power of shame and how to combat it. 3. **Family Dynamics in Recovery**: How family support, boundary-setting, and open communication aid in long-term recovery. 4. **Person-Centered Treatment**: Focusing on the individual’s unique experiences and needs rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. 5. **Transparency and Honesty**: How compassionate, direct communication can help clients trust the process and sustain their commitment to healing. ### Guest Bio: **Dr. Sarah Koenig** **Founder & Medical Director, Triangle Wellness and Recovery** Dr. Sarah Koenig is a board-certified addiction medicine physician and the founder of Triangle Wellness and Recovery in Cary, North Carolina. With a background in academic medicine, Dr. Koenig transitioned to addiction treatment, where she specializes in trauma-informed, patient-centered care. Her approach is focused on reducing stigma, integrating mental health with addiction treatment, and fostering long-term healing for both individuals and families. ### Resources Mentioned: - **Triangle Wellness and Recovery:** [https://www.twrnc.com](https://www.twrnc.com) ### Follow Us: - **Instagram:** [https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) - **Facebook:** [https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery](https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) - **LinkedIn:** [https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery](https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) - **TikTok:** [https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc](https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) ### Watch & Listen: - **Podcast Website:** [https://www.findingnewwaters.com](https://www.findingnewwaters.com) - **Spotify:** [https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4](https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) - **Apple Podcast:** [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) - **YouTube:** [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) - **YouTube Music:** [https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) - **Google Podcast:** [https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw) Stay connected with us for more episodes that provide valuable resources for families navigating the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. ### SEO Hashtags: #AddictionRecovery #TraumaInformedCare #MentalHealth #SarahKoenig #FindingNewWatersPodcast #FamilySupport #ReducingStigma #LongTermRecovery ### Powerful Quote: “Addiction happens in the shadows, and to come out and ask for help is one of the bravest acts a person can do.” – Dr. Sarah Koenig

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Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Shauna Vick shares his inspiring story < Back to Episodes Embracing Imperfection: Bob Goodale's Journey to Emotional Sobriety 35:24min | Bob Goodale | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode, we delve into the life and recovery journey of Bob Goodale, a former Harris Teeter CEO and a prominent figure in the recovery community. Bob shares his insights on the importance of embracing imperfection, the transformative power of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the pivotal role of emotional sobriety in leading a fulfilling life. Subscribe "The minute we were powerless over alcohol, our life was unmanageable." -Bob Goodale Transcript Bob Goodale Bob Goodale: [00:00:00] There are 12 steps in the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. And the first step is the minute we were powerless over alcohol. Our life was unmanageable. I never, I got, you know, that's still a problem. You still have lots of, I'm, you know, I'm wildly imperfect, still am. And that's, but that's the beauty of it being wild. Because if we were all perfect, it wouldn't be worth being here, you know? I mean, that's what, that's the goodness of it is our imperfection. But anyway. So I got this realized that we, that I was powerless over alcohol. That was a no brainer. I saw that when I went to treatment, I saw that and I said, wow, that's the deal. And I never had, and I couldn't drink like anybody else, but I had never switched that to, that I was powerless over it.[00:01:00] B. Reeves: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is B Reeves. I'm the director of business development here at New Waters Recovery with my colleague and friend, Thomas Hogshead, who is our director of admissions and director of operations. And our good friend Bob Goodell here, who is a local, I'd say more than a local legend in the recovery community. And I've got a partial bio of Bob, but I'm going to read just to get us started. And this is from his, the board of, is a member of the board of trustees from healing transitions. Bob Goodale is a former Harris Teter CEO and former NC deputy secretary of commerce. In addition to his past service on the healing transitions board of directors and current service on the board of [00:02:00] trustees, Bob serves on the board of directors of pivot point, WNC pavilion and the alcohol and drug council of North Carolina. Where he also served as president. He previously served on the Hanley Hazelden Foundation Board of Directors, Hazelden National Advisory Committee, Hazelden, New York City Advisory Board. North Carolina Department of Corrections Substance Abuse Advisory Board, Rebound Charlotte Board of Directors, Amethyst Foundation, Chairman of the Board, and the Charlotte Treatment Center Board of Directors and Capital Campaign Chairman. Bob served in the Army after receiving a BS degree from Iowa State University. He also received an MBA from the University of Kansas. Bob is a recipient of the Order of the Longleaf Pine. His other honors include the Trotter Black Award, Hope Haven Charlotte for his unique contributions in the field of recovery, and the Order of the Hornet [00:03:00] Mecklenburg County, North Carolina Board of County Commissioners highest award. Bob's story of addiction recovery is told in Second Chances by Gary Stromberg. Welcome, Bob. Thank you so much for being here. And we are so glad to have you and be talking to you today. Wow, Bob Goodale: that's long. B. Reeves: What's happened since Bob Goodale: then? What have you been up to? Well, that went back to golly, a long ways. Yeah, too long. I wrote it. Yeah, well. I get that. It's good to be here. Well, we're glad to have you. Great to be here, Bay. Great to be here, Thomas. Well, B. Reeves: Tell us a little bit just about how you found yourself in the world of recovery. What, you know, kind of, we talked about what we were like, what happened and what we're like now, you know, give us a little Bob Goodale: bit of that. The big thing is that all those, All that stuff about, you know, what I did professionally and but the biggest thing that happened to me is I stopped drinking in 1972, I don't say I got sober by the way, because nobody gets sober on their first day. [00:04:00] I say I stopped drinking and because you know, I began to get really emotionally sober is what it's about. And so I'll, I just want to start there because that's the big deal is being emotional and I didn't begin to find that maybe for 20 years. Wow. We'll talk about that maybe some, but yeah I had to stop because I couldn't quit. And, it was, it is hilarious as we know, it's our stories. I I was I was just, you know, falling downwards. I was spiritually, I was bankrupt in every way except financially. And I it was getting worse and worse. And I as president of the PTA. You know, my wife and I were president of the PCA, and I was just out there, you know. So, I wanted to I wanted to [00:05:00] see the bishop because I had problems, and then rather than go to my, you know, p Episcopal parish priest. I went to see the bishop and I said that I had a couple things I want to talk to him about. So over lunch in Omaha, they're one of their finest steakhouses I said I had two problems. One was problems with my marriage and the other. The other was that I couldn't drink like other people. And over three martinis apiece, we agreed that we would work on the marriage first. Six months later, after running the car off a road, in Omaha, flames burnt, you know, in Stubblefield. Late at night or early in the morning flames all around the car. And ran off the fire department came, ran off again. I called him up and I said, I got to do something. He said, place just opened up here in Omaha. And he says, I'll call him. And so down I went. I was number seven. The bishop was number 46. And that's how it began. Well, I [00:06:00] thought it was about not drinking. Right. See, I thought it was about non drinking, so I was a two stepper for a long time. And it's and so, I was, I know what being restless, irritable, and discontented is. The closer you were to me, the more you knew that. You wouldn't have known it otherwise. But and I just was, I was too stubborn. What B. Reeves: changed 20 years in of, would you say you were a dry junk, dry drunk for 20 years? Bob Goodale: Yeah. Yeah. What changed? I know the difference. Well, it was that I got lucky and was just figured out, it was presented to me that success was not about power and money. Wow! How long until you found a sponsor, Bob? Well, I got, well, I'm, I got a sponsor. I began, when I became CEO of Harris Teeter, I thought that would fix me, by the way. I thought, because that's what I aspire to, and it didn't. That day was not a good day. So the next day I found myself going [00:07:00] to a meeting at the Randolph Clinic in Charlotte. And I knew it when I walked in, like we hear all the time, you know, that's where I needed to be. And I would check in periodically, whenever we moved around, I'd check in immediately, but, you know. And so I I started to go, going amazing, and I got a sponsor, but you know. I got a friend, we would have coffee, you know, there are sponsors and there are sponsors. So, and so, I got a sponsor and I started going to you know, started showing up. And that was 85, so that was, 13 years in or something like that. And but then I I so I started showing up. Osmosis was occurring, I'll say. You know, I was showing up. And so part of my two steps, it was really two and a fraction, you know. Half of the first and all the second, middle third, the twelfth, [00:08:00] and half of the eleventh, and some of that stuff. And Will you explain, B. Reeves: though, in further detail what the two step, two stepping Bob Goodale: means? Oh, yeah, sure. People don't know the difference. So, there are twelve steps. In the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. And the first step is, the minute we were powerless over alcohol, our life was unmanageable. I never, I got, you know, that's still a problem. I still have lots of, I'm, you know, I'm wildly imperfect. Still am. And that's, but that's the beauty of it being, well, because if we were all perfect, it wouldn't be worth being here, you know, I mean, that's what, that's the goodness of it is our imperfections. But anyway, so I got this realized that we, that I was powerless over alcohol. That was a no brainer. I saw that when I went to treatment. I saw that and I said, wow, that's the deal. And I never had, I couldn't drink like anybody else, but I had never switched [00:09:00] that to. that I was powerless over it. I wanted to drink like other people. I want advice on how to do that or what to do about it. So I got that. And and the second step is can believe that only a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. And I was nuts. I was crazy. I mean, it was bad, crazy. Well, it's good, crazy but too much bad, crazy. Oh, wow. And and when I saw that, I said, Ooh, yes. So there's where the, that's a kind of a step and a half, if you will, but we call that the first two steps and don't go on from there. And so if we don't get into the spiritual part, you know. And if we don't get into examining our character defects and and working the rest of the steps, then we are [00:10:00] stuck. At being dry and and that's not a good, I mean, it's a better place to be because you I stayed, what I did is I stayed dry long enough to begin to get sober. Yeah. That was the deal and I wasn't going to pick up. It wasn't, that was never an issue because I was, because I, The consequences were, you know, I missed the decade of the sixties. I knew that I'm still trying to catch up. So, so that was that's the whole deal. It's not, you know, sobriety is different than abstinence. And I know the difference. And boy, is it something else. It's unbelievable. And it gets, it keeps getting better. I'm 90 years old and it keeps getting better. So, I mean, if B. Reeves: there's an example of someone living his life to the fullest, I would point to you. Yeah. I Thomas Hogshead: mean, [00:11:00] Bob's zest for life. It's contagious. You know, the people that know you in the recovery community, you are revered. You're a champion. And it's Bob Goodale: It's pretty amazing. Well, it is. It's, yeah, it is. B. Reeves: So you, I've known you just for a few years and in the few years I've known you, I've seen you, I haven't seen you do it in person, but I've seen pictures and video of you doing it. So you've repelled, tell us what you've done with the repelling down the Wells Bob Goodale: Fargo building. Well, so this, so the whole thing was just realizing that I'm wildly imperfect. But I'm also happy, joyous, and free. And that's the result of being emotionally sober, increasing the emotionally sober life in my periods. You know, of course, but it's far from that. You know, I'm sad. But when I say, you know, moments. B. Reeves: Even though you were very successful in business and even for a period you were dry, not drinking. But you were still unable to be present even [00:12:00] without the drink because of the Bob Goodale: ism was still cooking. Well, yeah. I mean, I was not, I mean, let's say the potential, you know, I learned a lot. Found out what's, I found out what to do by finding out what not to do. Found out what worked by finding out what. Didn't work. And so I was able to stay dry long enough. So I say to everybody, don't do what I did. Don't wait. Work on the, work on emotional sobriety. It's not just about not drinking, not using, because life is unbelievable. When you when you're able to live it to its fullest. I was B. Reeves: six months sober and I was in New York and I went to the same meeting every day at this place called Perry Street Workshop. And I heard a different person every day say this over three days. I came for my drinking, I stayed for my thinking. And that, I think that [00:13:00] totally sums it up for me. Of all the cliches and slogans we hear in recovery, that to me is what it's all about. And my thinking is my emotional sobriety. Bob Goodale: That's right. You know? Yeah, I think about it all the time. Yeah. B. Reeves: So what have you seen from somebody who's been around 50 years, interested in recovery, been to a lot of meetings, you've been on the board? Board of several treatment centers. What do you see as how things have changed for the good, for the bad? What do you, what are your thoughts on the treatment landscape? Not just recovery itself, but specifically treatment? Bob Goodale: Well, there's, when I, so comparing it to so I have to compare it to 1972 . And , it's light years different than it is now, and it's going to be light years different fifty years from now. It's moving in that direction. So, so, I, so I went to treatment. It was a twenty eight day [00:14:00] program. They kept me for six weeks. I'm sure that they thought when they, You know, finally said that I'd be back or, you know, I'd be out or one way or the other. Because they knew enough about what I was hiding. So they knew I was hiding. That's it. They didn't know about what I was hiding. And and so there wasn't any, there wasn't any you know, get a sponsor. It was the obligatory fourth and fifth. And my obligatory forth, you know, all I wanted to do was head right to the to go home and have an admitting fit, you know, change the lives of others. Forever. And so, so that's I just hopped right to that. To make amends, except when, but I didn't read that, except when Medusa went injured there by others. You see, I liked I the words like exact and all and, you know, and the [00:15:00] other part of it, like my life was unmanageable. I didn't, I only got was, I was powerless over alcohol. So I, well, why would I didn't have a sponsor to direct? me. So I wasn't led that way, I wasn't, we weren't taken to any meetings or anything like that. So that's, I mean, of course, it's a lot different now. Who would have believed, for example, that anything like New Waters? I mean, the police, you know? That's, that wasn't even a dream. Yeah. In that B. Reeves: light, like working Thomas Hogshead: with others, Bob, like I, I met you back in 2008 through the late great Fred Barber, and your ability to work with others at Healing Transitions and those men and those women is so profound that your impact on them you still go down there quite a Bob Goodale: bit and It's much, well, I, it'll never be often enough. I have, I've always had, I've always liked to have friends who didn't. Think like me look like [00:16:00] me some talk like me and I mean this, I'm like, I travel a lot I've had the opportunity to go places or smell like me. Always had a big, that's why I'm so drawn to you guys. Anyway, so, but you don't have to go, you don't have to travel far, I mean, it's it's. It's just, I just cannot, because the miracles that you see, I mean, that you see that you're involved in, that you witness, that you're a part of that sometimes happen to you, they're just, it's just a half a latch. And that's where. I just, so it's part of being happy, joyous, and free as you can do, as I can do that. Yeah, and what you said about people B. Reeves: not, don't look like me. I mean, I remember when I first found, got home from treatment and was going to meetings and I would see somebody who [00:17:00] walked in and looked like he was about my age and kind of dressed like me and looked like me and I'd be like, Oh, that guy will be my new best buddy and recovery. You know, and it was pretty rare that person and I had anything in common and then I would, you know, be at a meeting and hear like a, you know, an old lady who was a crackhead and she would say something that I related to more than anything I'd ever heard in my life, you know, and it's a great example of, you know, identifying with instead of comparing to and And that it trans, this transcends everything, you know? Bob Goodale: Well, I call it that, that I just get more and more material, not necessarily material to you know, to relate to all those, you know, but just I sometimes, not often, I'll be in a place and I'll, I will, and the other day, as a matter of fact, right over, not far from here. At Costco, I was picking up some water, and I met a guy who helped me a lot, uh, who works there, Ben, and we [00:18:00] started laughing, and, and so I was sitting in the car and I was laughing. And then And the laugh broke into a cry because I realized how lucky, how is this possible? How is it possible? It happens to me all the time. It's just, I'm able to go out in places that I never would have imagined even five years ago that I'd be. Sometimes it's a homeless camp and I'm and I'm witnessing unconditional love and I'm saying to myself, how the hell, how is this possible that I'm here? And it's it's very moving to me. And so because, so it's like you want more of that, right? And so that's. Yeah. Having Thomas Hogshead: seen that in action, Bob, people do gravitate towards you in meetings and social settings. I think. I think your [00:19:00] laughter is a big Bob Goodale: part of that. Well, that's genetic. I can go back to I didn't know my grandfather. He died when I, but I, but he was a storyteller and then I had an aunt that, so I mean, so that's but it just is because it's. It's it's just, it's a great way to be. B. Reeves: I know the exact feeling you're talking about. The part laugh, part cried. I never experienced it until recovery, you know, sobriety. Where I was driving on January 2nd of, I think, 2020. I was a year and a half sober. I was driving to work after I'd been trying to lose, I'd been losing weight for about a year and a half since I got sober. And I was determined to get to below 200 pounds. And on New Year's Day, I woke up and I weighed exactly 200 pounds. So close. I was shaving and blowing my nose and trying to lose 0. 1 pounds, just mocking me. It's still at 200 pounds. So the next day I had to be at work and I was going to the gym every [00:20:00] morning, driving in the dark. And I got up on January 2nd to drive to work, to go to the gym at my office and then go to work. And I got, I woke up and I weighed one 99. 1 and I just thought, yes. And then I got in the car to drive out there driving in the dark on I 40 on January 2nd. Nobody's on the road. And just broke down in total tears, but also laughing at the same time. It was what I could only describe as pure joy and the joy of living. And it wasn't just that I had gotten to this weight loss goal, but it was everything that how my life had completely changed. And it was all due to Bob Goodale: the 12 steps. Yeah. Well, so speaking of exercise, so, I was in Charlotte and I was, you know, I was restless, irritable, and discontented. My wife recognized that. And so I was doing a I'd been a gym rat growing up. And so here it is. 20 years later and well, it's almost 30 years later, and my wife made an appointment for me down at the Charlotte [00:21:00] Y, and I, that's where I discovered endorphins. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Oh, man, so I go in the morning and I go at night. And so here I was, you know, this this CEO of Harris Tierney, we moved our office down and, Now? No, Charlotte. But anyway, say it was about 20 minutes from downtown, maybe 25 from the center, from the downtown wine. That's where I went. So I would leave work dressed like you did in the, you know, in the eighties. I would leave work and and I would arrive. Absolutely ready to go to the six o'clock class. In other words, for a person this time, on the busiest street in Charlotte, North Carolina, I was naked. This is part of still being crazy, you know? I was too, I was a good kind of, well, maybe [00:22:00] good kind of crazy. It was, but that's an endorphin. So I'm still, you know, I'm a gym rat. And That's continued to be. I still love those indulgences, so. Thomas Hogshead: I agree. Bob, clearly you've been influential on many. Who could you share with us that has been deeply influential on yourself? Oh, Bob Goodale: Fred Barber, you know. Sure, Fred Barber. And Fred was, Thomas Hogshead: Instrumental in founding Healing Transitions. Yeah, Bob Goodale: Fred Barber. And, so I have lots of folks that I, Want to pay attention to I mean I go to two three sometimes four meetings a week still do and I go You know because I'm it's a community of friends and I go because I'm gone You know, it's I'm always gonna pick up something So I have a number of folks Who are important to me [00:23:00] in the community or you know in recovery That so it's a pretty long list, but I can look back at Fred. I feel him tapping on my shoulder often, and I like that. I like that. It's kind of what, it's kind of what would, you know, B. Reeves: you know, I'm sure you've heard this way more than I or Thomas or anybody, but you know, when people, I don't get asked as much, but I feel like this is one of those kind of legends we hear about in AA or stories that. Like a UFO anecdote. You still going to those meetings? You still need to go to those meetings? And, you know, you're nine years old, 50 plus years sober, and you're still going. I mean, that, that's just testament to we don't have to go, we get to go because we love going. You Bob Goodale: know? What what better to do? You know? I mean, it's anyway, it's it's pretty special. Yeah. Well, we B. Reeves: saw some video of you flying a plane recently. Will you tell us [00:24:00] about that? Bob Goodale: Well, yes, I I had an opportunity on the 21st of December to go to Norfolk with a a friend who whose daughter, and I went with the daughter too, is a third year at the Air Force Academy. And for her Christmas present, her parents had given her this opportunity to to go to fly one of these, and she flies. She had her pilot's license before she had her driver's license, and she's going to be a pilot. So the question there, her dad, who's a, who's also a pilot and she's going to be a fighter pilot, you know, that right away, but she has to choose between fighters and bombers, that this would be a good experience because he did it as part of his training and recently. And so what this is an airplane that's built for acrobatics. It only weighs 1, 350 pounds. Think about this. Powered by a 300 horsepower motor. There's a front seat and a back seat, a canopy that [00:25:00] you could, that's as clean as any. Canopy, you can imagine. And and so there's an hour briefing and then she's going up for an hour. And so I, on the, so he couldn't go, he couldn't take her in their plane. I said, well, I will, near Charlotte. And you don't have to take her. She can take herself, but just to be with her. And then it occurred to me, he couldn't go and then he couldn't. And so then I was going to do that. That well, I'm gonna go on the second date. I was thinking about it. I said, well, I wanna go and so. And so, I asked them and they said, sure. Well, it turned out that the I wanna go was just flying there in their plane because there's just two seats. . So I thought, well, that was a bit of a disappointment, but I didn't say anything. But she's up for, she's, I mean, she's gonna go the whole hour. I mean, we're talking about stalls and loopty loops and flying upside down. All the things that you see at air shows and, her [00:26:00] dad said, do you want to go up? And of course, I said, absolutely. I want that adrenaline, you know. And so, so up we went. And so, and I had the stick. So I was in the front and he was in the back. Had a parachute on, by the way. And they give you, that's part of the drill, take everything out of your pockets like you do when you go to the fair. And away we went. And he said, now take the stick. So I'm, you know, I got the stick. And he said, all right, because we're going to do barrel rolls. And so we did two barrels and I'm hollering and shouting, you know, all the time because it was unbelievable. And so. So they asked for, when I, so there's a video that you've seen and so they said, they asked for permission to use that in their social media. Of course I got that. So it was, but that's the part of the deal being happy, joyous, and free and being. [00:27:00] You know, of being interested in in adventure and, you know, not being crazy about it, I guess, but maybe and also it's just to show that it's to show that Maybe, not maybe, but a mission to show that being old doesn't mean that you just have to mildew. You know, I mean, if you want to build birdhouses, that's fine, or do puzzles, that's fine. You know, and we, so it's an example, like at the gym you know, I do, I can do stuff that's, you know, get on a BOSU ball. That's kind of unusual, but it's because I can. That's part of being happy, joyous, and free, is to find out what you can do and what works. So anyway. That's awesome. Thomas Hogshead: So, Bob, is there anything on the bucket list that remains that we should Bob Goodale: be aware of [00:28:00] upcoming? People, I get asked every once in a while, what's on your bucket list? And my answer is tomorrow. Right on. That's it. That's a B. Reeves: great answer. One day at a time, we can Bob Goodale: get through today, then there's tomorrow. Some folks ask me, well, you know, how'd you do it? You know? Yeah. I say I didn't die. Yeah, I've heard you there, But the fact is that, you know, I did so, so just to recap here, that it's not about just being dry, right? Just quitting. Just, you know, is that's just. That's not, it is a beginning. The wonderful part of it is to embrace something like the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and its brethren, and embrace seeking emotional sobriety, understanding the [00:29:00] spiritual nature of recovery, and, uh, and embracing it, and learning, and growing in it. That's the deal. Don't stop. Just Quitting. Just stopping. Yeah. Thomas Hogshead: And I think we're deeply fortunate in the Raleigh area to have so many meetings, to have so many treatment facilities, to have so many people that are doing the deal and inspirational to the newcomer. Bob Goodale: It's just a community a communities of folks. That you know, the one thing that I like, stick with the winners. Yeah. There are lots of winners. Yeah. And that's part of, you know, we talked about before. Folks, man, I wanna be able to listen. Wanna be next to I go I go to, I'll go to a sweat lodge tonight and there's, there are people there that I want, that I don't see otherwise that I wanna sit next to. Just because they're fun [00:30:00] and they teach me they teach me to think about things and say things that I. I've never thought about before and that's something else. I B. Reeves: mean, I love to hear that man, 90 years old, he's still out seeking and learning and wanting to learn. It's, I, this is your, you're in a, we're not here just to blow your boat. This is, you have no idea how Bob Goodale: inspiring this is. It is. See me in a sweat lodge. I need so much help even getting in. I don't want to see any video of that. Just like we were talking about before. People say to me, Oh, you don't look like you're 90. I say, well, you watch me walk. So, anyway. Thomas Hogshead: Well, this has been a great job. I think it would be nice in closing. If a newcomer came up to you today in a meeting, you know, and he said, Bob, I need help. It's, I'm [00:31:00] in early recovery and I'm struggling. What words of wisdom would you share with him that, Bob Goodale: Well, tell him I experienced strength and hope. That's what we're supposed to do. But, you know, it's you're never going to be lied to. You know, come join us and stick, and just, and also, I always want to have an, have a depth of a conversation. It doesn't have to be, you know, terribly long. When I say terribly long, I mean, it can be three or four minutes to be able to look someone and tell them I love them. Give him a hug and you can't beat that. Well, we love you, Bob. We do love you, Bob. We do. The community loves you. Love you. Thanks sir. Thanks. Thank you so much for doing. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. We're better off with B. Reeves: you than we are without . Bob Goodale: This has been a treat. Thank you. Amen. Thank you. So [00:32:00] thank. Show Notes In this inspiring episode, we delve into the life and recovery journey of Bob Goodale, a former Harris Teeter CEO and a prominent figure in the recovery community. Bob shares his insights on the importance of embracing imperfection, the transformative power of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the pivotal role of emotional sobriety in leading a fulfilling life. **Key Points Discussed:** - Bob's realization of his powerlessness over alcohol and the significance of admitting imperfection as a step towards recovery. - The impact of emotional sobriety, which Bob emphasizes is much more than just abstaining from alcohol. - The evolution of Bob's career and his continuous contributions to the recovery community through various board memberships and philanthropic efforts. - Bob's adventurous spirit, as showcased by his activities such as repelling down buildings and flying planes, underscoring the joy and freedom found in recovery. **Guest Bio:** Bob Goodale, former CEO of Harris Teeter and NC Deputy Secretary of Commerce, is celebrated for his remarkable journey from addiction to a beacon of hope within the recovery community. With a history of extensive service on boards like Healing Transitions and the Alcohol and Drug Council of North Carolina, Bob's story is one of transformation, service, and continuous growth. **Resources Mentioned:** - Healing Transitions: ⁠healing-transitions.org⁠(http://healing-transitions.org/) - Alcoholics Anonymous:⁠aa.org⁠(http://aa.org/) - Book "Second Chances" by Gary Stromberg, featuring Bob's story. **Closing Thoughts:** Bob Goodale's life story is a testament to the power of recovery, community, and continuous personal growth. His message to embrace imperfection and seek emotional sobriety offers profound insights for anyone on the path to recovery or in pursuit of a more meaningful life. Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠A(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)pple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=0)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠T(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)iktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). 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Join us on "Finding New Waters" as Marc Kantor shares his inspiring story < Back to Episodes Overcoming Addiction and Bridging Treatment Resistance: A Conversation with Marc Kantor 34:58 min | Marc Kantor | Finding New Waters In this episode of the 'Finding New Waters' podcast, Graham Doerge, CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery, welcomes Marc Kantor. Mark, a certified intervention professional, shares his own journey from a 20-year career in commercial real estate to supporting individuals and families recovering from addiction and mental illnesses through South Florida Intervention. The episode discusses the importance of making tough decisions in recovery, the role of interventionists, and the introduction of Kantor's new project, Versapoint. This facility offers a high-end, private healing environment created specifically for treatment-resistant, successful men dealing with addiction issues. Subscribe "I can remember that day so vividly and wanting the pain to go away, but now looking back at it and, and pretty soon after that, looking back at it was, was able to, that is a, that was a miracle moment for me." -Marc Kantor Transcript Mark Kantor: [00:00:00] As addicts, we get so used to make it go away, make it go away. And I, and I always liken this to like muscle use, right? Um, every time I make a hard decision, that muscle gets strong. Absolutely. But every time I don't make a hard decision, that muscle gets weaker. So, you know, you're, you have to build up to it. You know, I, I can remember that day so vividly and wanting the pain to go away, but now looking back at it and, and pretty soon after that, looking back at it was, was able to, that is a, that was a miracle moment for me.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to finding new waters. My name is Graham Durgie, and I'm the CEO and founder here at new waters recovery. Thank you for joining us for our weekly podcast. We've got a fantastic guest for you today. We have Mr. Mark canner. Mark canner is a certified intervention professional with years of professional experience helping individuals and their families recover from addiction and other mental illnesses. Mark grew up in Long Island and graduated from American University in Washington, D. C. Before becoming an interventionist, Mark had a 20 year career in commercial real estate in New York City and Washington, D. C., where he was recognized as a top producer on multiple occasions. In 2018, Mark relocated to Boca Raton with his wife and their teenage daughter, where he started South Florida Intervention, which offers a full continuum of recovery services for individuals who want to recover from addiction. Mark Kantor: First of all, thank you, Graham, Justin, for having me. This is a lot [00:02:00] of fun. Um, I, I love having these conversations and, and what I, and I especially love when we talk about how we got here, what our stories are, because that's, you know, for us, that's where the river, uh, the rubber meets the road and, um, you know, the real answer is how I got here probably started, um, In 1972, you know, like many of us, we've been our whole lives and then we stumble into substances or mental illness and then we wind up here. Um, but my story in terms of how I got into this business, how I came into the space was I was in commercial real estate, uh, for 20 years. Um, The first three years were good, and the next 17 were bad, but I had to stay in just to make sure, because, you know, for, one of my buddies said to me, he's had, for, for, you, you've been, you've been six months away from the big deal for, for six months, and, you know, and then finally it got to a point where I, I had hit a the, A [00:03:00] spiritual crisis in my life and I, and I just had to surrender and had to admit, uh, this isn't working anymore. I'm, I'm just not, I'm not happy. I don't want to, I've, I've no interest in doing this. I have no intention of doing what I've been hired to do. I just, I want out and I don't know. What that out looks like, like where, where am I going from here? I have no better idea. And I went through what I would consider now a very necessary three or four month soul digging process to, to then have the answer given to me by my 15 year old daughter in a matter of seconds, which was, which was miraculous. And I believe it was a God moment, but, but, uh, you know, I was really struggling with, you know, we'd moved from. Washington, DC, where we'd been for 20 years to South Florida in, in, in what I will admit was a geographical and I, and I knew that then I knew that [00:04:00] I had been sober long enough at that point to know this is a geographical, I'm just getting the hell out of Dodge, right? So we get down there and, and it's, it's like. It's like crappy right away. Things are bad right away. Um, my relationship with my wife is kind of, we're, we're, we're getting, you know, rocky. Um, my daughter's in a big high school. That's not going fantastically well. I'm running out of money. That's, that's never good. Um, But a couple of things that I, I did do right, where I, I maintained the foundation that I, I've picked up over the last, um, you know, many years in recovery, but there was a day where I was standing in the shower at the gym with my, my palms out, just letting the warm hit, the water hit me and I, and I literally said to myself, well, I can't drink, I can't have an affair and I can't kill myself because those are three things I can't undo. One of them, um, You sure as hell [00:05:00] cannot do. Right. Right. Um, and, and I just kind of said, you know, and those are the rules now I got to go figure it out. And, and I was in a lot of emotional pain for a long time. And then one Saturday night, I'm having dinner with my daughter who then was 15 years old. And my wife was out of town with her brothers, I think for her mom's birthday. And my daughter looks at me and she says, dad, why don't you start doing interventions? And I was like, Yeah, uh, that, yeah, uh, yes, that's what I'm going to do. Yes, that's it. That's the answer. And that weekend, um, her and I started working on the website and writing the business plan together. And, and it was a changing point, a turning point in both our lives. Because when, when I got better. She got better. You know, we got better together. We grew together. We're very close. We're very, you know, we talk every day. Um, I'm so grateful for that relationship, but just to give you a little background of that, uh, few years earlier, I had [00:06:00] participated in an intervention with a friend in Washington DC and I said, Hey, I really liked this. I can do this. I really feel motivated for it. So I started taking the, you know, the intervention. classes, they offer online. We see them being advertised all the time. And I did that and, uh, you know, so, so I really had started to want to do something differently, which set the foundation. However, I kept getting pulled back into commercial real estate. Look, look, I mean, Graham Doerge: you know, you've been doing it for 20 years, you know, obviously. It's the easy, it's probably the easiest path forward and the less scary too, right? Oh Mark Kantor: yeah. You know, it, and it's the story people already know about me. I tell clients all the time, clients and family members, there were like horses that have been pulled out of a burning barn. If you don't tie them up, they will run back into the barn because it's what they know. And that, and that was me. And I was, you know, it was, I was just an appointment. I was, I [00:07:00] was trading my. My dreams and my goals and my self esteem for, for a paycheck. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it's, and, and, um, I obviously can relate to that a lot in, um, in the, the manner of like getting to work in this field. Right. And I think that I was, I was, At a point in my life when I got sober that I didn't have this long career that I had been successful in or had done for a while, I was really kind of still flailing out there. So it was just such a, an easy transition to like, God, people actually do this for a living. Uh, and, and like, what an amazing way to help other people, you know, do, do what I did. Right. Um, and so you found your purpose, right. And you, and you found, you know, obviously that drive, which is truly amazing. I'm Justin Mclendon: curious, if you don't mind me asking, I'm just, as I'm hearing, hearing you tell a story, so then you decide, okay, this is what I'm going to do. What did that kind of traction or the transition look like there? Was it like, okay, now I got to go, I got to go find someone to intervene on it. That's right. Mark Kantor: Right. I [00:08:00] mean, so, so a lot of people do get into this business and they, and they, it's like watching LA law or, uh, law and order where like, Oh, wow. I want to be a lawyer. Cause they're always in the courtroom and they're, they're, they're making these amazing arguments and that's great. And, you know, coming up with dead bodies and stuff, but the real life, it's not like that, you know, they spend a lot of time doing, you know, yeah. Administrative work. Sure. And so I think what a lot of people don't realize that this business has two pieces and one of them is the marketing piece. Absolutely. You know, um, nobody gets to treatment. Nobody gets to versa. A point nobody gets to new waters. Mm-Hmm. until we have. A person, unless they know about us, right? Until they know we're a resource. So 50 percent of this business is, is getting the business 50 and the other 50 percent is, is, is execution is, is quality execution. So the transition for me. Uh, was, was, [00:09:00] was hard, difficult, but not, but not hard in the way I had known hard in the past because I really felt like I didn't have anything more to lose at that point professionally. I mean, I really was, you know, done professionally in my, in, in commercial. I wasn't holding on to anything. And, um, I, I became willing, I became willing to meet anyone. Who would talk to me and, and luckily I wouldn't meet people like Graham. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Uh, remember when you first started and you came over to voyage and I think you were very early on in the process there, but you're out meeting everybody. Right. Any, Mark Kantor: anyone, anyone and everyone, you know, anyone who would, you know, yeah, yeah, I was not selective and, but along the way make really good high quality people who were then willing to say to me, do you know, do you know, Justin, do you know, do you know this one? Do you know that one? Let me, Introduce you [00:10:00] and they were very gracious. And so for me, that's part of this business is that, you know, that we do, when we find someone who's new or in a new market, we say, come with me, let me take you around. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing too with. You know, this amazing network of, of professionals that we have here. And we all work so closely together and we all, you know, if a client's not right for us, you know, I know exactly where that person has to go. Right. And it's one phone call away, you know, do you guys have a bed? What's, you know, and, um, so, you know, that's a, that's a big piece that obviously the listeners need to know. It's like navigating this, this field is, is pretty complex. So utilizing somebody like you or, or any of us is, is really the way to go to, to know that you're getting to a good ethical. program, Mark Kantor: right? Yeah. I, you know, I likened my intervention practice to, you know, we, we are essentially, uh, tour guides, you know, right. Because, you know, if you were going to go to, said, I want to go to China, you call American airlines or United. [00:11:00] They'll get you there. You get to Beijing. You get off that plane, you're screwed. I mean, you don't know. Anything, right? And, and my analogy is always, well, we're there when you get off the plane and, and we take you and we, we show you and we know, and we, you know, and that's what you're, you're getting from us. You're getting our legwork, our experience, Graham Doerge: our, and not only that, and I think some people think that that intervention process is like, okay, you go in, you do the intervention and you kind of wipe your hands and your. and you're off, right? It's done. But really there's a whole piece to this where you're kind of managing the family. You're managing, you know, the client after the fact, once they discharge in a lot of cases. So it's, it's, it's a long, you know, kind of runway where you're continuing to Mark Kantor: support this continuum of care. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, and, and getting the individual into treatment is certainly represents a level of success, but it's not the end of the story, right? Absolutely. It's just the start. It's just the start. And we, you know, I've had somebody that's been with me for the last several years, [00:12:00] uh, Kelly Densmore, who's, uh, who's our parent coach and she's going to be with us at Versa. And she works with parents. She works with spouses who are that person. Left behind at home going now. What what do I do? You know, what do I do when they call and say yeah, you know, uh, get me out of here The chicken's not organic, you know Graham Doerge: And I mean that's such a help for us too here as like as operators because we are Full in with the client, right? And we're doing everything with the client on a daily basis. And a lot of times there's not a person like you that's involved in the case. So we are doing the family work as well. But when there is somebody like you, it makes things a lot smoother for our team internally, because, you know, you can handle the, the external relationship with the family and we can really focus on the client. Right. And a lot of times there's major conflict there, right? So, you know, it's kind of good for us to just be kind of hands off and, and really be. They're there to advocate for the client, not the family, Mark Kantor: right? You know, that is completely. And, and I always say, you know, [00:13:00] once your person's in treatment, they're being taken care of, they're, they're getting the attention they need. And, and don't forget, people don't walk into VersaPoint or walk into new waters or call an interventionist because they're on a winning streak. They're, they're, they're in the midst. of a, of a crisis. Right. And their family's in the midst of a crisis and it's just, it just radiates through everything. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, going forward, one of the decisions we made as a leadership team is that we're going to refer out interventions because, you know, to do an intervention right, it's not an hour, it's not two hours, it's, it's two days. Yeah. You know, we, you know, to spend time with the family, to do the planning, to arrange treatment and all the logistics and then, and then the work and then everything it's three days, it's four days and, and that, Graham Doerge: and that's if it goes smoothly and that, and Mark Kantor: that's Graham Doerge: exactly. Yeah. And then if you get somebody who's bucking and walks out and you know, then you're kind of chasing him for a couple of days [00:14:00] or letting him fall on his face, you know, uh, you know, so to speak. Um, Yeah, it's, it can be a drawn out process. It, it Mark Kantor: definitely can. I've had guys with me for five days where they're held up in a hotel and you're just checking in with them every once in a while. And you know, they kind of start to come around and then, well, maybe I'll. I'll go to, you know, a therapist and maybe I'll go to, you know, as the, as the consequences are mounting or they realize they have nowhere to go, they start coming around, they become more agreeable. You mentioned, Justin Mclendon: you know, kind of one form of success in that is, you know, getting the person to treatment. And I think, you know, this just came up for me as I think the family, I think can sometimes be kind of fooled into that as well as that, you know, everybody's in a crisis mode. They know that there's a need for change. There's an interventionist involved, the intervention happens, you know, successful entry to treatment. And then I think sometimes the family can do that too. It's like, okay, well we've, you know, we've won. Or like, this is good. Right. Mark Kantor: They're where they need to be. We've done our [00:15:00] part. We've done our part. Right. Justin Mclendon: Yeah. But, you know, like you're alluding to, I think, you know, the working with the family, the education, the support, the case management there. to help them understand, like, this is not over yet. This is, this is a good step, but one of many, right? Mark Kantor: Correct. Yeah. I mean the, it's all about the family system. Absolutely. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's all about the system and you know, you can, uh, Geraldine Delaney, who is the founder of Alina Lodge used to say, if I had a choice between taking The addict are taking the family. I'd say give me the family. Yeah, because if I can change the family I can change the You know as an interventionist You're not necessarily there to, you know, to, to change the, the individual who's using, drinking or using. You're there to change the system, right? You're there to support the, to one, help get the individual into [00:16:00] treatment, and two, give the family the support they need to keep them in treatment, right? You're not there to But you know, you're not a travel agent, right? Cause they do call sometimes, do you have anything in Hawaii? Do you know, Graham Doerge: but, and also, you know, part of that too is, um, um, gosh, I just lost my train of thought. We'll cut that out. Um, sorry, go on. You were just Mark Kantor: saying, well, yeah, no, it's, it's definitely about the family. This, the sad reality of it is that, you know, when we look at all the families we've served over the years. How many will invest a tremendous amount of money in getting their loved one to treatment? And won't do anything later on. But, but, none or very, very little money in, in actually doing themselves what they've asked someone else to do. Right. 100%. Absolutely. Graham Doerge: Yeah, no. And, and this is what I was going to kind of allude to before was just like, yeah, I love that, that quote from the Alina Lodge, uh, [00:17:00] gentlemen, but like, yeah, it, families just need to understand that this is, there is a lot of work that needs to be done with them. Uh, you know, I think back to my experience where, you know, my family went to maybe a couple Al Anon meetings, but kind of said, well, this isn't really for me. And I think that people need to understand like, just like AA or any other meetings, not every Al Anon meeting is, is a good Al Anon meeting. Right. Right. And there's a reason that We say go to 90 meetings in 90 days in the beginning. So you go to a ton of different meetings. You find out the ones that work, you find out, you find your people, you find your tribe. Mm-Hmm. and, and where you're comfortable. And uh, and then that's kind of part of the process. But I think unfortunately, so many people go, they try one out, two out, and they don't have a good experience. And then they just never go back. They, I'm not the one with the problem. Yeah. Mark Kantor: They're the one with the problem act. Right. And they identify out, they'll say that woman's son died of an overdose or that woman's, yeah. daughter is in jail, or my kid is just, you know, buying pills on the street, but he's at a good university, so it's different, and it's not different. It's not different at all, and thank God you're not where [00:18:00] that other person is. Justin Mclendon: Well, and that's, you know, just to extend that thought, I think, because when people get stuck in that type of thinking, That's not their reality, because that hasn't happened yet. Right. But if it's, if they don't engage in that change, pro change process, if they don't do the work that's necessary, they could very well be that person in that Al-Anon meeting, sharing that same story. You Mark Kantor: know, there's no question. No question. And that is more true every day. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I, I agree. And, you know, an Al-Anon can be a little more cumbersome than aa. Sure. aa, you know, AA has a, a. You know, where we have a light atmosphere, we laugh, they cry, you know, you know, we, um, you know, in AA, you can hear someone tells a story and says, well, you know, when I was drinking, I fell off the, you know, the third story of a roof and. Everyone laughs, right, you know because there's someone else in that room. That's also falling off But but now they don't [00:19:00] find that funny, you know And also now and on they do they're very by the book in terms of they're gonna read all this stuff Which you know, I really wish you know, cuz I do like Alan on and I am very codependent and I need it I wish they would just say, you know the way we do it. Here's the preamble Yeah. Justin's our speaker today. Let's, let's get at it. Yeah. So, but yeah, it's Graham Doerge: true. Absolutely. It's good stuff. So I love to switch gears a little bit because, uh, we're obviously talking a lot about intervention work, which is awesome. Great information for all of our listeners, but I wanted to talk about versa point a little bit too. So I'm pulling this off of your website and you can dig into it a little bit. more, but Versapoint is located in, uh, Jupiter, Florida. I was actually just down there, uh, last week, absolutely magnificent home, um, on 20 acres, completely private, uh, very high end. Um, and this is what we have from the website. Versapoint is an immersive recovery experience in an upscale healing environment. Here, concierge services are [00:20:00] fully integrated to exclusively address the needs of treatment resistant men who struggle with alcohol and addiction issues. Resting at the pinnacle of elevated luxury, we provide our residents with a life raft in the chaotic sea of life. Discover a private sanctuary at the highest standards of comfort and care only at Versapoint. So tell us a little bit about why Versapoint, why you started this and and kind of what it's all about in the program and Mark Kantor: Yeah. No, because there, there's, you know, a gap in the market. There's, there's, there's, there's what we designed this for what I like to call the, I'm not client. The, the, this is the adult male, the successful, affluent, accomplished male who seemingly has a great life, right? I mean, they're their entrepreneur, they, you know, that all those things are checked, the boxes are checked except for one thing, their wife and kids can't stand the sight of them. [00:21:00] Right. I mean, that's a big thing, right? That's a, that's a, yeah, that's a lot of pain right here. Um, so we want to design a program for these men who are traditionally Treatment resistant, you know, they're the I'm not client. I'm not going for 30 days. I'm not going to share a room I'm not gonna this I'm not gonna you know, they're laying out the rules of all the things that are not gonna do Meanwhile, their families are highly traumatized and afraid of them because they You know, any addict, uh, just to go off on the side for a second, any addict is, is naturally skilled at creating a buffer zone around them of fear. Do not enter that zone. You know that, you know, and if you do, you will be met with resistance, unfair threats, manipulation, um, All kinds of unpleasantry, so, so we wanted to design a program that it would be, it would be, [00:22:00] for lack of a better expression, easy, an easy sell for the interventionist, for the therapist, for the referent, for the family members, to say, okay, we know you're not going to go to treatment, uh, quotes. But would you go here for 14 days? Yes, I'll do that. Okay, so philosophically, we do, you know, we we know that And and through research we know and we know that longer term treatment is is better Better outcomes to better outcomes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's like 90 days as you know, they say is that magic number? Yeah But and and that's the 12 steps Work, right. But you can't lead with that with this guy, you know, cause he's resistant. Cause he went to a meeting once 10 years ago and it was a bad meeting. And I mean, you know, that guy wasn't like me or, you know, Graham Doerge: people are going to see me and they know who I am. I'm a high profile person. I own a huge company. I can't [00:23:00] possibly be seen in those meetings. The stigma is, is obviously still a, is still at large, right? Sure. Yeah. So, you know, as much as we're, you know, on here trying to talk about this stuff and trying to kind of reduce the stigma, uh, it's, it's still a real. thing for a lot of people, you know, it's Mark Kantor: out there. There's definitely a, um, you know, a belief system that, you know, comes along with, with admitting to any mental illness that there's, it's a, it's a weakness. It's, you know, it's unfair. Graham Doerge: You might be a doctor or an attorney or, you know, any number of, of, uh, you know, professions that you have licensure and are worried about losing your license. Mark Kantor: Right. And, and, and to that point, The reality is that every one of those practices have a an impaired professionals program The airline pilots have the HIMSS program veterinarians have it doctors have it You know every every licensed professional and the goal with those programs is to get that person healed and back to work [00:24:00] and typically their recovery is is better because of the monitoring, the ongoing monitoring. Their recovery rates are much higher. So we wanted to create a program that we, that somebody could look and say, I'll, I'll, I'll do that. You know, so, you know, our property is gorgeous. I mean, there's nothing like it. I don't, I mean, thinking of the other high end programs that are out there, there's nothing like this, this level of privacy. You know, we have, we're 13, 000 square foot residents on 20 acres. You don't, you can't see another neighbor. You have to go through a guard's booth to even get into the neighborhood, which is a five minute drive away. So you're talking about a lot of privacy, a lot of discretion. Everybody has a private suite. It's a small mill youth, no more than five clients. Um, but you know, we're using all the, um, recovery principles, right. You know, uh, working in [00:25:00] groups. Um, Using the, you know, I always say, we'll rip the cover off the big book so you don't know what it is, but you know, because it does, it's good stuff, right? You know, you taking, taking that stuff, introducing them to Dharma recovery, introducing them to smart recovery. Graham Doerge: And meeting them where they're at, right? Yeah, very much so. That's the key, right? And, and we see those clients in here all the time where, you know, we are just fighting them for a week to get them to do anything, you know, and it is full court press by our team, you know, getting the family, getting any leverage that we possibly can, and they're just not going to do it. Right. Right. So I think that it is, there's definitely a, There's definitely a market for, you know, uh, something like what you're doing, where it's just that kind of short term continued stabilization, maybe before going back to work or before going home or whatever that may be. Yeah. Mark Kantor: I mean, that's the other thing we can, we can take a client on, on. At different points in their recovery, it can be, you know, everybody comes in medically cleared, so [00:26:00] detox, so they're gonna come through new waters first, and you gotta sign off on it. So they could be at the very beginning of their journey, they could be coming back to South Florida from another program, and need to start integrating back into South Florida, but But they're not ready, uh, for to be home yet, or the family's not ready for them to be home. So, you know, we can do things like, you know, if, uh, Practitioner therapist or a doctor has a client they're working with they could play some in our program They could go through our program, but they could also have access to that therapist. Okay that doctor We also are working with outside therapists. I mean that and this so that's what we make me mean by non clinical We don't provide clinical services on property For, you know, obviously there are some reasons for that. There was, you know, zoning laws and things like that. Right. But, um, we do work with outside therapists. And the good news is [00:27:00] there is you, if you're a therapist, you send a client, they can, they continue working with you. That's great. You know, or say you're coming to us from New York and you say, say, do you have a therapist? They don't say, let's find you one that's in New York that you can see when you're there. Right. So we, we find you when you start working with them while you're with us virtually. Right. And when you get back to New York, you're just continuing with them. You don't fall into that Valley that a lot of people found that I fell into. I came home from treatment. I sat in my little office for three days in a cold sweat. Yeah. Not knowing my, you know, like what to do and, and I had a voice in my head said, go to one of those meetings. And I recognize, luckily recognize one of the addresses and the meeting list of the treatment center printed out for me and I went to, it was above the record store. It's not a record store anymore, but I knew the record store, you know, 19 years ago. But um, but yeah, so we, we have the. The ability to do anything, you know, we have private chefs, super [00:28:00] individualized, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, um, needs to, to work. They, they can, we, we encouraged, let's try to take a break from that and focus on ourselves. Um, but. You know, whatever they need, if they need that, you know, uh, somebody was telling me the other day, uh, it was Jenny Mills. We were talking about Gary Fisher, who is the, I guess the, he's the first executive director of Cirque Lodge. Wonderful man, wonderful man. And she, and he said, and I think he said this to me too. I remember he said, if somebody needs a chocolate milkshake to be comfortable in treatment, if that's, what's going to keep them from walking out there, let's get them a chocolate milkshake. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's easy. It's easy. And that's what we do. Graham Doerge: Yeah. A hundred percent. We, we Justin Mclendon: follow that same philosophy. I mean, obviously there's things that we can't do or we're not going to do, but to that point, I mean, if there's little things that we can do to help somebody stay a little bit more comfortable and increase their chances of engaging more and, and this being more [00:29:00] productive for them, I mean, why not do it? You know what I mean? Graham Doerge: This is probably the hardest thing that there. ever going to experience in their life. Right. And if we can make that process a little bit more hopeful, a little bit more, um, just enlightened, then, you know, that's the way to do it. Right. Yeah. So there's just so many programs out there that are just so institutional and it's very rigid. It's so rigid. And, you know, people just don't get better in Mark Kantor: those places. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, they're big. They've gotten big. I mean, they're, you know, they, you know, they start off small and they, they, they, they get big, you know, for me, Mike. first day in treatment, you know, the first morning I woke up after showing up there at two o'clock in the morning and, and knowing nothing about recovery, nothing. I mean, you'd Graham Doerge: never been to a meeting, never attempted anything. Mark Kantor: No, no, nothing. Zero things whatsoever. I mean, you know, I, out of all the things I Googled, In my, in my years using, uh, I never once occurred to me to say, [00:30:00] how do I stop? Or how, you know, how, how to, I, I, I knew that treatment existed. Sure. And I knew AA existed. Of course, I didn't know what that had to do with me. Cause in my mind, I was an alcoholic. My mantra was I occasionally take more than prescribed. Right. Right. And I could go weeks without drinking, but then at some point I needed to drink every day just to get in the door, just to face my wife. Get through the door. I needed a big gulp gin and tonic, right? And so I woke up that first morning in treatment and I like everything hurt, you know Because I used so many different Drugs illicit and otherwise, you know pills alcohol massive amounts of caffeine Uh, sugar, I was a hundred pounds overweight, you know, nicotine gum, you know, shop. And, you know, so, you know, the treatment center I went to at the time, the original Betty Ford center, they did not have caffeinated coffee. [00:31:00] So it was ugly. I mean, it was ugly. So I woke up at that week long headache. Oh my God. I woke up that morning and I, I laid on the ground and I literally cried and just. I just cried. And, and you know, it's interesting because you kind of need Graham Doerge: that, right? You have to feel that pain and you have to be like, I remember when you're talking about this, I remember those feelings so well, you know, they're still so alive in me and, and you know, those initial days and the terror and all that. And what is, what is life going to be like? Like, what does this even mean for me moving forward? Mark Kantor: Just make it go away because you know, yeah. As addicts, we get so used to make it go away, make it go away. And I, and I always liken this to like muscle use, right? Um, every time I make a hard decision, that muscle gets strong, but every time I don't make a hard decision. That muscle gets weaker. So, you know, you're, you have to build up to it. It's, and you know, I, I [00:32:00] can remember that day so vividly and wanting the pain to go away. But now looking back at it and, and pretty soon after that, looking back at it was, was able to, that is a, that was a miracle moment for me that that's, you know, that was probably that laying on the ground and crying was. You know, the me now would look at that person to say, good, you're doing the, you're, you're doing work for the first Graham Doerge: time. You're feeling your feelings. You're feeling your feelings. For the first time in probably Mark Kantor: 17 years. Yeah, and you're in it. Yeah, you're in it. You're in it. Yeah, you're in it. You're on your way. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, man. And, um, You know, this has been so fun catching up with you and, and we really appreciate you coming here in person, um, to see the place and to get on the pod. Um, do you want to give everybody your website and, uh, any links or social media? Sure, Mark Kantor: I do. Yeah. Thank you. And well, at first I want to thank you for having me. You've been [00:33:00] wonderful and introducing me to people. You've definitely been one of those people that said, come, let me introduce you. Let me take you around. Let me. You know, and, uh, and I really appreciate that. Absolutely. I'm grateful to you for that, and it's, and it is fun. I do enjoy it. A hundred percent. I would, you know, it, it, I really enjoy where I'm at. I'm grateful for where I am in life, and I'm grateful for my journey and, and your journey. Versapoint. com. It's V E R S P O I N T E dot com. And our social media is Versa underscore point. At Versa underscore point. And, you know, anyone can reach me or text me anytime at 202 390 2273. That's my, my mobile number. We, we don't have a, you know, a main number. You're going to get you if you give a call. You give a call. You're going to, you're, you're going to get me or you're going to get Kelly. Yep. And, um, You know, [00:34:00] or Michael and, uh, I think that's a mark, Justin Mclendon: the mark of a true professional in this field. Just put your cell phone number out there and Graham Doerge: just call me. Just call me. You got a problem. And if you were always amazed that they're, Oh, I'm so sorry. It's nine o'clock at night and on a Saturday and I'm like, this is literally what we do all the time. You know, you know, 24 seven, we're answering the phone. That's what we do. So, um, and we will put all of, uh, Mark's information, um, You know, on the, on the website and on the podcast. So if you guys are looking for that info, it'll be there. Um, but thank you so much for being here today. Great talking to you and we will see you guys next week. This is awesome. Thanks. Yes. Show Notes In this episode of the 'Finding New Waters' podcast, Graham Doerge, CEO and founder of New Waters Recovery, welcomes Mark Kantor. Mark, a certified intervention professional, shares his own journey from a 20-year career in commercial real estate to supporting individuals and families recovering from addiction and mental illnesses through South Florida Intervention. The episode discusses the importance of making tough decisions in recovery, the role of interventionists, and the introduction of Kantor's new project, Versapoint. This facility offers a high-end, private healing environment created specifically for treatment-resistant, successful men dealing with addiction issues. Tune in to learn more about Kantor's unique blend of luxury, privacy, and personalized recovery strategies. 00:00 Introduction: The Struggles of Addiction 01:08 Welcome to Finding New Waters: Meet the Host and Guest 01:56 Mark Canner's Journey: From Real Estate to Intervention 05:10 The Turning Point: A Daughter's Suggestion 07:59 The Intervention Business: Challenges and Rewards 11:19 The Importance of Family Involvement in Recovery 13:23 The Role of Interventionists in the Recovery Process 14:03 The Reality of the Intervention Process 14:35 The Importance of Continued Support for Families 17:47 The Reality of Addiction and the Importance of Change 18:30 Comparing AA and Al-Anon 19:23 Introducing Versapoint: A New Approach to Recovery 20:23 The 'I'm Not' Client: Addressing Treatment Resistance 24:10 The Versapoint Experience: Luxury, Privacy, and Personalized Care 25:17 The Importance of Meeting Clients Where They Are 29:24 The Journey of Recovery: Personal Experiences and Insights 32:41 Contacting Versapoint and Final Thoughts Mark Kantor https://southfloridaintervention.com/pages/about-south-florida-intervention Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠ Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠ Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠

In this insightful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with **Alexis Haines**, Director of Business Development at **Crisis Case Management (CCM)**. Alexis unpacks the complexity of true intervention work—far beyond the TV dramatizations—and shares how CCM approaches healing through comprehensive case management, family systems support, and long-term planning. < Back to Episodes Beyond the Intervention: Alexis Haines on Family Systems, Mental Health & Crisis Care 40:30 min | Alexis Haines | Finding New Waters In this insightful episode of *Finding New Waters*, we sit down with **Alexis Haines**, Director of Business Development at **Crisis Case Management (CCM)**. Alexis unpacks the complexity of true intervention work—far beyond the TV dramatizations—and shares how CCM approaches healing through comprehensive case management, family systems support, and long-term planning. Subscribe "We’re not here to rescue one person. We’re here to heal the whole system." – Alexis Haines Show Notes In this insightful episode of Finding New Waters, we sit down with Alexis Haines, Director of Business Development at Crisis Case Management (CCM). Alexis unpacks the complexity of true intervention work—far beyond the TV dramatizations—and shares how CCM approaches healing through comprehensive case management, family systems support, and long-term planning. With experience ranging from owning a treatment center to building out CCM's national model, Alexis offers wisdom on mental health interventions, companioning, court-involved recovery, and why helping the entire family system is critical for lasting change. Timestamps: • [00:00] Meet Alexis and What CCM Really Does • [03:00] The Evolution of Crisis Case Management • [06:00] Intervention, Redefined – Summits, invitational models, and holistic family work • [10:00] Supporting Mental Health Crises – Mania, psychosis, and building trust over time • [14:00] Companioning in Action – Creative interventions (yes, with Batman and Superwoman) • [18:00] From Chaos to Containment – Leveraging Florida's Marchman Act when needed • [24:00] Family Coaching is Non-Negotiable – Why enabling is the biggest barrier to change • [30:00] Alexis’ Recovery Story – From court-ordered treatment to 14 years sober • [34:00] The Bigger Picture – Fixing treatment misconceptions, funding gaps, and patient-first confusion • [38:00] How to Connect – Getting started with CCM Key Points Discussed: 1. Intervention Isn’t What You Think It Is – Surprise isn’t always effective, and shame isn’t necessary. 2. Mental Health Interventions Are Complex – Compassion, patience, and strategy matter. 3. Family Coaching is Critical – Without systems change, relapse is almost inevitable. 4. True Support is Long-Term – 30 days of case management is automatically built into all CCM interventions. 5. Personal Experience Fuels Professional Purpose – Alexis shares her own journey to long-term recovery. Guest Bio: Alexis Haines Director of Business Development, Crisis Case Management (CCM) Alexis Haines is a recovery advocate, speaker, and case management expert with over a decade of experience in the behavioral health field. She is the former co-founder of a treatment center and now serves as Director of Business Development at CCM, one of the longest-running case management organizations in the U.S. With her own personal journey through addiction and recovery starting at age 19, Alexis brings lived experience, clinical insight, and deep compassion to every case. At CCM, she helps families navigate mental health and substance use crises through intervention, recovery coaching, companioning, and long-term care coordination. 🌐 Learn more: https://www.crisiscm.com(https://www.crisiscm.com/) 📞 Call: 1-800-920-3410 Resources Mentioned: • Crisis Case Management: https://www.crisiscm.com(https://www.crisiscm.com/) • Marchman Act Info: https://www.myflfamilies.com(https://www.myflfamilies.com/service-programs/substance-abuse/marchman-act.shtml) • Find a 12-Step Meeting: https://www.aa.org(https://www.aa.org/) Follow Us: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) • LinkedIn: New Waters Recovery | LinkedIn(https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) • TikTok: TikTok - Make Your Day(https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc) Watch & Listen: • Podcast Website: https://www.findingnewwaters.com(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) • Spotify: Meeting People Where They Are: Lindsey Humphreys on Recovery Access & Innovation(https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw) • Apple Podcast: Finding New Waters(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) • YouTube Music: Your browser is deprecated. 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Frances Murchison, a certified interventionist and recovery coach, joins New Waters Recovery podcast to discuss intervention. Insights on family dynamics and dispelling myths are shared. Tune in weekly for esteemed guest episodes and join the journey towards recovery < Back to Episodes Frances Murchison The Power of Intervention 44.16 min | Frances Murchison | Finding New Waters In this episode, our CEO/Founder, Graham Doerge, Medical Director, Dr. Harold Hong, and Frances Murchison, dive deep into the intervention process, which is a carefully planned procedure that involves a team of professionals and loved ones. The aim is to encourage individuals struggling with addiction to seek help in a compassionate, caring, and respectful manner. Play Video Facebook Twitter Pinterest Tumblr Copy Link Link Copied Subscribe "The secrets will kill a family system and will destroy the fabric in the family" Frances Murchison Podcast Transcript Graham: [00:00:00] Good morning and welcome to our inaugural podcast, finding New Waters. My name is Graham Durge and I'm the founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm joined here today by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Francis Sson from Whole Family Interventions. Francis is a professional, certified interventionist recovery coach, life coach, and holistic health coach. In addition, Francis is an author, speaker, retreat leader, and a yoga instructor with 35 years of sobriety. Francis believes addiction is a family disease which is exhibited in her work as a coach. Her mission is to help individuals and families make grace-filled changes toward health and wellbeing so that they can live a life of recovery, resilience, and wholeness. Francis has published two books, breathe, see, nourish. Energize A Pathway to Healing and Heal Your whole Body. The 12 Day Power Plan to flush toxins, balance hormones, and reset your body's most essential organ. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to create a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one [00:01:00] struggling with substance use, dependence, or mental health. The fact of the matter is that when we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea what direction to turn. My hope is that we can help shed some light into what can be many families' darkest. And Francis, thank you for joining us today. Obviously always a pleasure to get to see your face and spend a little bit of time with you. And I'll, I'll just start with like a little bit of background. Francis and I actually met years ago. At the Arise Intervention Training up at Cumberland Heights, up in Nashville. So I kind of saw her starting this journey and it's just been amazing to, to see it all transpire and, and all the amazing work that you're doing up to this point is, is really incredible. So thanks for coming Frances: today. It's a privilege to be here with you. I'm so proud. Of what you've accomplished here and it's it's an honor to be here. Thank Graham: you. Fantastic. Thank you. So, you know, wanted to start out today you know, with a couple questions. I know that you [00:02:00] just got off a flight from doing an intervention, right? Thank, and obviously that's kind of the, the core of, of, of what you're doing these days. So can you tell us a little bit about. You know, in particular the intervention that you, you know, just were a part of, but you know, maybe the intervention process and, you know, what families need to kind of learn about what an intervention is and, you know, just give us a little bit of background on, on kind of the mechanics of, of that process. Frances: Can do. Yeah. I think the first thing that I wanna say is that the way whole families. Orchestrates interventions is nothing like the show , , and that there is a preconceived notion among many families that it is a meeting that is confrontational. Mm-hmm. and can feel quite shaming. Hmm. To the identified person. Hmm. Often a loved one, and I am passionately committed [00:03:00] to the concept that the meeting itself is a meeting of love. It's a meeting of truth, and it's a meaning of a meeting of kindness and it's solution based. Yep. So the way it begins is often the call that I get, is often the last gasp that the family has. Yep. To try to help their loved one. I am truly the last house on the block if I'm getting the call. They've tried in their mind everything else. Yep. So it's often a call of desperation. Yeah. And what I tell families is that true, that often it is the case that we don't get better. We don't ask for help. We don't want to get help until we, I, as a, as an addicted person, [00:04:00] have come to the end of my rope. Ha I've hit my bottom. But I also, and I also believe that interventions. when the family has hit their bottom mm-hmm. and when they are suffering enough mm-hmm. to say, we're done and we need help. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And often that is exactly what I say to the identified person. The minute we walk in the door is, your family reached out to me because they are suffering and they don't know how to help you. Yeah. And so we're gonna be here to offer you a. , right? So the process begins by someone in the family reaching out to me and saying, my loved one is suffering. How do I get them to treatment? How do I get them to start this road to recovery? And one of the first things that I ask this person is, Do you have a line in the sand that you're willing to draw? If this person in your life whom you love or [00:05:00] have loved, maybe they're at their end of their rope too. Do you have a line in the sand if they don't go right? Because if they don't have a clear boundary, if they don't have a clear consequence, if they don't have a clear. line in the sand, then we need to work on one and come back to me, or I'll help you create one, right? Because simply to ask your loved one to go to treatment. When you don't have in the back of your mind, if you don't go, I'm willing to do or I'm not willing to do it. In my experience, it's not gonna be nearly as successful. . Yep. And that often for families, it's a very challenging place for them to land because they don't think that that's loving, right? Mm-hmm. , right? And what I tell families is, the most loving thing you can do is to speak the truth in love. Mm-hmm. tell them you're suffering and offer them a solution. , right? [00:06:00] So then I say to the person who's reached out to me, do you have a posse? Do you have three to four people? Five people? Four? Whom with whom your loved one has a relationship? Cares deeply enough about what they have to share. Do does your loved one care about having a relationship with this person long-term? I can't have anyone in the room who, for whom? Or with whom? The loved one has a massive resentment. Mm-hmm. , or has a massive resentment toward mm-hmm. . There's no room for resentment or shame or blame or any condemning language. This is a love meeting. Yeah. Nothing but compass. and empathy. They may not have it at this moment because they may be kind of sort of done, but we're gonna at least pretend right for this meeting and we're gonna prepare mm-hmm. for that meeting by having one-on-one conversations with me, and I'm gonna help you [00:07:00] go down memory lane. You're literally opening up your photo album and you're gonna remember. Beautiful times that you've had with this person way before this person picked up or began struggling with mental health challenges. Right. And we're literally gonna share those memories with your loved one because that person has forgotten. Mm-hmm. , that person has forgotten who they are at their core. Mm-hmm. , how much they're loved, how much they have been affirmed and appreciated. In their life by this circle of friends and family. Mm-hmm. . So I help the family members, friends, employers, maybe. Mm-hmm. . Literally go down memory lane and pull those up. Remember, bro, remember when we were sailing around the islands and we saw the sunrise and we were drinking coffee, and you told me this was [00:08:00] like the most incredible moment of your life. We're gonna, we're gonna share those right memories with each other. Yep. And with you. Yeah. Yeah. I love you so much. I'm not willing to sit on the sideline and watch your life implode. Mm-hmm. because of your substance use disorder or your mental health challenges. Yeah. I love you too much to let you stay here. Hmm. And this is how we've shared our lives together. Yep. Graham: Love it. Yeah, absolutely Love it. So powerful. Frances: So, so, so in that preparation we do that and then they set out writing their letters where they put it down in writing. Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, are you inviting them to the intervention, the, the person of concern? Frances: You ask a great question. Yeah. Because there's so many approaches, right. To interventions. I. Kind of sorta created my own approach [00:09:00] by what I feel like picking the best out of a rise, and also following love first with Deborah and Jeff J. Got it. I think the way they approach interventions is beyond brilliant, right? Mm-hmm. . So most of the time for me, if, if, if this family, if these people have talked about and talked about wanting to offer this person a lifeline, mm. It may be very appropriate to invite them. If the family feels as though that person is either gonna overuse mm-hmm. harm themselves, perhaps harm someone else, or Bolt, then it's more of we're gonna have a coffee. Yep. Mm-hmm. , and we're just gonna share what's been on our heart. And then you get the floor. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , and I'm telling you, , nine 99% of the time the identified person wants to be in the meeting. Mm-hmm. , [00:10:00] because we as human beings love to be talked about . Right. And especially if I know from the get-go that you're gonna tell me things that are. lovely about me, right? I'm gonna want and sit. I don't, I'm gonna want to sit and hear you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. a hundred percent rarely had someone up and leave. All I say is your family is struggling. Mm-hmm. , they feel powerless. How to help you. They've asked me to join you. They have a few things they wanna say to you, and then if you're willing to listen to. the floor is yours. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so we literally go around the circle. We know where everyone's seated. We've had a rehearsal, we've gone through the letters. Everyone's heard each other's letters. Mm-hmm. . So now the healing begins with the family because there are secrets that perhaps come out in these letters that a person hasn't heard. Mm-hmm. , for instance, just came off an intervention. Grandmother, [00:11:00] mother of the identified person. shared with me that she was an alcoholic, ex-husband, was an alcoholic father to this son was an alcoholic. He died of a alcoholism, cirrhosis of the liver, and she was emotionally and physically abused, and he never knew that. He never knew it. Wow. Incredible. She tells me, she starts crying and saying, I've never shared this out loud. I'm getting goosebumps even telling you this. . I said, Sally, you need to put it in your letter. Oh no, it's been under the rug. We gotta talk about that. Mm-hmm. , it's been under the rug for 45 years. Yep. Son is 50. Wow. Can you put that in your letter? Yep. It would be so important. Yeah. For your son to hear this Graham: and it really reframes the entire family system, right? It's, it's a hundred, a hundred percent. It's everything that we've [00:12:00] ever known. This whole perception of who we are as a family is false. Right? Oh and a hundred percent. And it really kind of is those, those types of, I feel like that piece of information can really wake somebody up and say, holy cow. You know? And again, and it's. You know, we're not, you know, just trying to work with a client here. You know, we're, we're working with the family, right? Mm-hmm. , and this is a family disease. And, and that's, you know, I love working with somebody like yourself because by the time they get to us, they're kind of teed up and the, and the, the family is, you know, been coached and they know what to expect and they're. Ready to hold the line. And you know, it's, it's difficult when we get families who don't really understand that concept that, you know, listen, we're working with, with you, but we're also working with the family as well, because everybody needs to do some work here. Right. Frances: The secrets will kill a family system. Yep. They will destroy the fabric in the family. And when she said it out loud, he visibly. Began to shake all over Wow. [00:13:00] As he's been the identified black sheep. Right. Everybody else has been towing the line and just living the sort of perfect life. Mom shares this bombshell and all of a sudden now, mom and son are both sharing in this pain and suffering. Wow. And they're, and the and, and the empathy. is is literally tangible in the room where Sun says, , oh my gosh. I've known, I've known that there was something off. Mm-hmm. in this family. I could feel it. I never knew what it was. And at 50 years old, he hears the secret that mom has been protecting. No wonder, no wonder he's using, he is literally physically embodying the trauma, the generational trauma. Yep. Mm-hmm. that, who knows where it started? Yeah. I mean, it could have. [00:14:00] three generations ago, five generations ago. Yep. The family begins to heal no matter what the identified person chooses. Mm-hmm. for him or herself. In terms of his own recovery. The family begins to heal right away. This is secret that the other brother never knew. Yeah. Best friends never knew. Wife never knew. Wow. Jesus. And we're all hearing. Except for me. Right. All at the same time. Incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible, incredible, incredible. Dr. Harold Hong: Tell us, Francis, a little bit about what was going on with the family, that, that got them up to that moment of, of reaching out to you. Like how did they reach Frances: the of their life? Ah, ah, great question. Wife. I always fall in love with the family. Just so you know. , , I love this woman so much. I've known her for a whopping two months. Right, right. She's incredible. Well, Graham: you get very close to these people, you know, [00:15:00] doing this Dr. Harold Hong: type of work. You're spending like months getting to know them Frances: well, it just depends on how. Desperate. The crisis is Uhhuh. . I've done it in four days. This family, this woman, this wife specifically planned it to be post his birthday. Mm-hmm. and post a skiing trip. Yep. . Right? Some families don't have that kind of time, right? Mm-hmm. , because there's too much risk. She thought she could do it. She's been living with it for five years. She called me because her therapist, and she lives outside of New York City. Mm-hmm. I live part-time in New York City. She's been talking to her therapist. Her therapist told me to call, told her to call me. It took her six months to pick up the phone and call me. She Wow. And the reason she was willing to call me is that she finally realized she was done. Yep. And what she said was, I'm living a single parent life in a two-parent home, and I've never been [00:16:00] lonely here. Yeah. This husband, who is just an awesome star got laid off in Covid. Mm-hmm. , and he's an extrovert and his world crashed and burned and he sleeps until 2:00 PM He wakes up just in time to pick up their 10 year old daughter from school. he's sober for about four hours, starts drinking at about six, and then he stays up until five. Wow. And she said when her daughter, her 10 year old daughter, came to her after Christmas and said, why does daddy sleep all day? Hmm. I don't feel safe with him in the car when he picks me up from school. Chill bumps again. Yep. Then mommy knew right then and there. if I don't do this, I am modeling to my daughter that this is normal. Yep. And this is not normal. And mom knew right then and there to save her daughter, she had to [00:17:00] intervene on daughter's behalf. Yeah. To save the two of them. It's so, it, it makes me wanna weep. I mean, I mean, the strength of these families is. and then we have other families who are really stuck. Right. Yep. Really, really stuck. And I have those too. But Graham: yeah. And you know, it is, I think back to the arise training, you know, sometimes too. And one of the, the pieces that I loved that we pulled out of that was, and Dr. Hong actually, you know, uses the genogram. Yeah. Quite often with our assessment clients and. And it's just so incredible and so powerful to you know, the genogram is a chart. It's kind of a family tree, so to speak, where we start going generations back and start identifying some of the issues and some of the, you know, the family system issues, some of the individual issues with you know, generations previously. And, What was so cool that I found from it was when the, the person got sober the following generations. You saw that break in addiction, right? And you saw that break in the cycle which is so, so powerful. [00:18:00] And, you know, I'm a person in recovery. My wife is a person in recovery. We have three daughters. And you know, it used to say, gosh, you know, chances are one of 'em is gonna have an issue. But you know, my hope is that we are raising them. In a very different household. Mm-hmm. than, you know, a lot of us grew up in. Right. And, and you know, hopefully we can model that behavior and listen, we're not perfect and you know, life happens and everybody, it's tough raising kids these days, But you know. Do you still use a genogram? Frances: I do. Yeah. And what I've noticed in, in looking at that and filling it out. Sometimes it's on the fly. Yeah. Sometimes I have longer. Yep. And it really begins to. Clarify itself when I have these one-on-one conversations with every single person in the circle. Yep. I, I, I require that, I mean, I su highly suggest it because I learned so much right about the family system when I have individual conversations with everyone here, and what I am [00:19:00] becoming so clear about is that generational. Substance use disorder, mental health trauma, trauma is beneath so much of what I see. Yep. When I enter a family system. Yep. And when I started, I didn't understand the power of the generational trauma. Yep, yep. Yeah. It's amazing if we don't stop the cycle. . It just gets passed down. Yeah. It just continues on and on. Yep. All the time. Graham particularly, particularly with the mental health stuff. Yep. Mm-hmm. , we live what we learn. Yep. We live what we learn. . Graham: Yep. Yeah. And as Dr. Hong likes to say, one of my favorite quotes is from you is where there's addiction, there's trauma, . You know, and that's just, that's the [00:20:00] reality of, of the world these days. And a hundred percent, I mean, I would say we see it with, with most in or if not all clients. Right? Dr. Harold Hong: Totally. A hundred percent. It, I mean, the, the family you're talking about, I mean, you just feel the pain and the weight that they've been carrying for generations. it. One, one thing that I, I learned in my ethics class way back in college was there's a strange good reason mm-hmm. for every bad thing that we do, and with all the pain and the weight that this family's carrying addiction as a way to deal with that pain. It just makes sense. Mm-hmm. , but there's so much judgment and shame and dysfunction that comes along with it, and you. what you're talking about, Francis, sounds like such a relief, like the people in the family are getting what they wanted for so long, but what about all the pain and anger that's come along with it at the same time?[00:21:00] Frances: And what's so wild, Dr. Hong is this mother who's been carrying the secret for 45 years. Hmm. She has congestive heart failure. Okay. She's got high blood. and she's got high cholesterol. Mm-hmm. . She says that her pain medication costs her 25 grand a year. Holy God. And I wanna know if she had shared that secret 45 years ago and been willing to be vulnerable mm-hmm. with these children and really help the children understand it wasn't her fault. It may not have even been daddy's fault. He has a disease. I have a disease. , we can get help for this disease. Would she have less health problems? Now jury is out. Mm-hmm. But my sense is that trauma lives in the body. Hundred percent. And the body never, ever, ever forgets. [00:22:00] In fact, interestingly enough, because it's soak, it's so fresh in my mind, right? Mm-hmm. , I just got off the plane yesterday. Yeah. That the husband said to mom. Daughter doesn't know about this, right? Oh, she's 10. And in fact, the wife said, no daughter's actually written you a letter. Dr. Harold Hong: Wow. She was, she was actually the reason she was, she was hundred percent right? Frances: A hundred Graham: percent. The delusion is strong, right? The Frances: delusion and denial is like the Berlin wall, truly, and what she asked. Her husband in that moment, because husband now had heard mom share his letter. He, she asked, what did you know? Did you know anything at 10? Yep. And he said, I knew something was wrong. Right? [00:23:00] Yep. And so then she asked husband, so what do you think Vivian knows at 10? Hmm. Yeah. Graham: Yeah. Frances: The body never Graham: forgets. And you know, and, and you hear that all the time with you know, with people that are, you know, trying to, you know, find treatment on their own is that they need to, you know, they want to keep it a secret or they don't want this person to know, or they don't want that person to know. And the reality is, We're always the last people to know Right. We we're fooling ourselves if we think that everybody around us doesn't know exactly what's going on, you know? And in some cases it's, you know, kind of waiting for people to really crash and burn and, and get willing to, to seek treatment. But yeah, I mean, I love how you spoke about trauma. And you know, how it's stored in the body. And I mean, I am a huge believer in that, number one. And, and one of the things that we started doing here at, at New Waters is really introducing a lot of these holistic modalities, right? And doing, you know, massage, acupuncture, breath work, which has been. Incredible for our [00:24:00] clients. It, it has hands down their favorite thing that they do here. And that was a big surprise to me, right? So we're, you know, gonna be adding more of that type of work. But, you know, it's incredible to see these clients go in and they do a breath work session and they don't have any clue what it is, what it's all about. And they have this like, transformational experience. And really what they're doing is they're just releasing that energy, releasing that trauma, and it's. You know, it's a, it's kind of a short glimpse into, you know, some of these modalities that we can really utilize that are great tools for us when we're in recovery. But I know that you, you know, are a very holistic person and, you know, you believe in, in all these types of, of things. So would you elaborate a little bit on that and your, your work with it? I Frances: will. Yeah. So when I was, I, my, my card caring, most proud achievement is that I've been a sober. . Mm-hmm. 35 years. Which, which is a miracle. A miracle . But early on when my children were infants, I took up yoga. Mm-hmm. , and I'm [00:25:00] dating myself because I used a videotape , not a DVD v Mm-hmm. not, not a YouTube. Yep. A videotape. Yeah. And what I had heard in recovery, Was that the mind was not a welcome place for me. Mm-hmm. to stay for very long. I had no idea what that meant. But a friend in recovery said, you may wanna try some yoga. Mm-hmm. And in the very first Asanga class tape that I watch, , they taught breath work. Mm. At the end of class, in Sanskrit, it's called pr, yama prana meaning breath. It's it's a, it's an ancient word, ancient language. It's hard n not spoken anymore. Mm-hmm. Except in the yoga world, prana means breath. It means life. Mm-hmm. . And yama means control. Right. [00:26:00] Control of the breath. And it's actually. The, the fourth limb of this eight limb practice that is thousands. Mm-hmm. of years old. Wow. And I realized that in those early days of parenting and recovery, I was about five years sober at the time that I just needed some grounding practice. Mm-hmm. , and between being challenged to stay in the body, take the. into the heart. Underneath the skin. Into the body. Mm-hmm. , be there. Be on your mat. Breathe. Yep. Just for 55 minutes while the kids were napping, it began to change my life. Yep. Truly. And what I realize is this breath work, this mindfulness practice of being right here, right now. Mm-hmm. , observing, [00:27:00] noticing with no judgment. Hmm. is literally 5,000 years old. It's probably as old as millennia. Right. And we westerners think we, we, we just, we just found it. Right? ? Yeah. Graham: A hundred percent. Yep. Frances: Uhhuh and I hear a lot, oh, this facility offers mindfulness and breath work and body work and yoga and. . Same. Same. Like this is what I do. I'm a yoga instructor. I teach students how to become teachers, right? Mm-hmm. and I lead a mindfulness practice. That's the curriculum that I wrote and I teach. It's all about mindfulness and Okay, we're just catching on. Mm-hmm. and the Desert Monks. . Yep. The yogis have been doing it for literally 5,000 years. , but you know, we haven't known what we haven't known and I'm so grateful. Mm-hmm. for the practice, it is at our fingertips. It can be at a [00:28:00] stoplight. Yep. It can be while we're watching the coffee drip. It can be every time the phone rings, it can be every time we hear a text ding. Literally just to pause and to breathe and notice what am I, believ? Literally, what am I believing right here in this moment, right? Is my story 10 miles out or am I beating myself up for something that happened 10 miles ago, right? Mm-hmm. , where my feet are, that's where I am right here, right now, I'm just here staying with my beloved son, his wife, and. Precious. Just wanna say precious grandchildren, Uhhuh , and on Sesame Street, they're learning, I think, from Elmo to breathe. Wow. Breathe in. Breathe out. It's about time. Breathe [00:29:00] in. Breathe out. Mm-hmm. , breathe in, breathe out. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It works in schools. It works at three and it works at 33 and 63, Dr. Harold Hong: a hundred percent. I, I gotta say though, I think culturally in the West we have just lost touch with reality. . Like we believe that we can work, eat, sleep, wake up, do it all over again, and that is sustainable for decades. it doesn't work. And, and what I see happen is our clients do that. They get burned out. Well, it's the Graham: expectation Dr. Harold Hong: too, right? Right. It's like you're not normal. If you can't do this, you can't do this. Right. And, and they burn out. The pain is unbearable and alcohol becomes that good idea in a bad situation. And then they, they hit bottom. And, and so our clients here, when I talk to them, , they feel so shocked that they feel better when they actually take care of themselves. . Right. You [00:30:00] know, it's like a mystery has suddenly been solved for them. Right. But this, it's just, it, it goes back to this what the vibe I was getting from what you were talking about and this family story, is that there's this massive reality under the surface that people are just out of touch with. They are so fortunate to have worked with you, Francis, cuz you, you connected them with the truth of their family and it sounds like such a huge blessing to them that all these things they've wanted are finally available to them. Mm-hmm. , Frances: they they were so grateful, but it's not me. Mm-hmm. , I'm just literally, I am just. Hands and feet of a higher power. Yep. And I just decide I'm walking alongside you and you can do it because we all need encouragement, guidance, and accountability. And that's what our [00:31:00] three-legged stool is as our whole family's mantra is that we're there to. , encourage and hold some kind of accountability. And it's not my accountability, it's their accountability to themselves. Mm-hmm. , I just hold the mirror up, hopefully with a little bit of meta, a little bit of loving kindness and empathy. Mm-hmm. , they're doing the heavy lifting. I'm not, I just ask questions. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, I'm, I'm blown away by this, this spiritual realm that you're, you're bringing up. And I, I've been in situations with clients. , you feel that there's a spirit in the room, and I think a lot of the people who are listening or watching would really benefit from hearing a little bit about what it's like to be in the room and, and does it result in a moment of decision and, and, mm-hmm. If you could tell us about a time where something like that comes to mind for Frances: you. Well, given that it just happened 24 hours ago, , [00:32:00] I can tell you about this one. The spiritual life is truly sacred to me. I feel like I've learned. Everything I know about the spiritual life from the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mm-hmm. . It's not recovery for everyone. Mm-hmm. . I know that, and I'm so grateful that there are other modes of recovery out there because the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't float everybody's boat. I happen to have gotten. Privilege Miracle to be able to get sober in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. I walked into my very first a meeting in midtown Manhattan, and I've been sober ever since, and that is not me. That is my higher power, having some kind of grace and mercy. Mm-hmm. toward me. And for me, it's the power of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. They are the most profound [00:33:00] pathway. Toward living a life of contentment and peace and service that I know, and they can be used on top of batons, eightfold Path, Buddhas Four Step Path, smart Recovery Refuge Recovery. The, the, the, the, the language that the 12 steps use can be so fluid and so open and so gracious. It, it makes my heart heavy when, when I hear somebody saying it's not for me. Mm-hmm. , because I feel like there's a big tent there, but nonetheless mm-hmm. I am passionate about, for me the fact. Staying sober, and I mean really sober, working hard in the interior life to be [00:34:00] transparent, to be authentic. I did not live an authentic life when I was using. Mm-hmm. . What I was feeling inside was not what you were getting outside. Mm-hmm. . And that disconnect was the thing that brought me to my knees. Truly, I was imploding. Mm-hmm. . . The spiritual life is hugely, hugely important to me, and I I'm very open with families when I'm working with them, and I'm very open with clients in early recovery as their coach that I don't care what it is, but it can't be you. Mm-hmm. . Yep. It can be your higher self. Yep. There's plenty of Buddhist. for the 12 steps of recovery. Mm-hmm. , if that's your, yeah. If that's your thing. But it cannot, it cannot be my own self will. because my own self will got me to my knees. Yeah. Graham: Yeah. And I think too, that it's also important to highlight that for me at least, religion and spirituality [00:35:00] are very different things. Right. And I think that's where a lot of people get hung up is they think, oh, this is a religious program, or this is that, or they say God, or, you know, and, and you know, it's, again, as you just said, it's, it's very fluid, right. And you know, and it's just a start, right? And it's, and you just gotta. do your part to believe in something. But I think that puts a lot of people off. And, and it's always interesting when I'm, you know, talking with clients and they say, oh, I, I went to some meetings and it didn't, wasn't for me. I, you know, I couldn't relate or yada yada yada. And, and then my next question is typically like, well, tell me what that experience was really like cuz it's inevitably. Went to a meeting or two and sat in the back and didn't say hi to anybody. And you know, that's, that's not what 12 step is. Right. And you know, typically the reason that we say go to 90 and 90, me, you know, 90 meetings and 90 days is so that you go to a ton of different meetings. And you find your people, right? Yeah. And, and that's really, it's not, you know, this isn't a sentence, you know, that we're giving you, like, you need to go to a meeting every day. It's, it's for your benefits so that you can really [00:36:00] find your tribe, you know? And that's what it's all about. So, you know, and I think that it's really unfortunate that, that, that, like spiritual component p puts people off because it's, it really like, in order to, to recover from this thing, we need to have a total psychic shift. And I think that that only happens really at the spiritual. , right. We're so disconnected and and it's just such a, an important element and I feel like people are just so fearful of talking about it. You know, it's unfortunate. Frances: I also think that substance use disorder and mental health can be so isolating. Mm-hmm. , I think that those diseases are diseases of isolation. Mm-hmm. and I really believe. That we need community connection. Absolutely. And connection. Yep. Connection. And I a hundred percent agree with you. I have a client now [00:37:00] who's been to treatment living in a sober house in DC and that was his expectation by the sober house. 90 and 90. Yep. Right there on DuPont Circle. And that was the very thing, find your people. Yeah. Because this 30 year. . I get it. I understand it. His life has come to a crashing halt. He thinks he has literally come to the end of his existence because he has no idea, because the culture is out there presenting it. That if he can't have a drink, well, let's just say it's not a drink. We know that by the time we get to treatment, it's not a drink. Right. That he can't have Graham: a life. Yep. That's so hard. Yeah, so Frances: painful. And if he finds his people, Yep. It's not gonna take 90 meetings. New York City, Raleigh, New York, they're all over these 20 and 30 somethings and they're living a life they never imagined. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's [00:38:00] beautiful. And they realize that. We can do it without alcohol and drugs. Graham: Mm-hmm. and, you know, do it in, in such a dramatic, amazing way too. I mean, that was, you know, I was 26 when I, when I went to treatment for the first time, or really the only time. And you know, I was super fortunate and I still say like, I was touched by the hand of God when I was about two weeks in a treatment. I all of a sudden just had this. Shift this awareness where I said, okay, I can sit here and say my life is over because I can't use these substances. How am I going to, you know, what's my wedding gonna be Like, what's my, you know, this, that, and the other thing that I listed off. And, you know, I couldn't possibly do these things without drinking. Right. And I all of a sudden have this awareness that I can, I can, you know, be down and out because of that, or I can just start doing awesome stuff. And I started fly fishing. I started playing more golf and I just like threw myself into all these different hobbies and things that I'd always dreamt about doing. But I didn't do because I was drinking by myself in a basement in Boston, , you know, . So, you know, [00:39:00] once I like had that kind of shift in perspective, I was like, oh wow, this, this, you know, life can be amazing. And then, you know, I still, I go to a ton of concerts and. I just do it differently now, right? I go with the right people and I don't go to the concert four hours before the concert and sit in the parking lot, you know, because nothing good is happening there for me, right? But then now I can remember the concert, which is a whole new thing, , which I never did before, but, Yeah, I mean, I think especially with young guys, you know, it's, and women as well, but you know, I've primarily worked with a lot more young males and and it's just getting them fired up about life again, right? Mm-hmm. and, and whatever it is, if it's free diving, spear fishing, fly fi, whatever, they're into skiing, you know, just getting reconnected with that is, makes all the difference in the world with these young. . Yeah. Yeah. Agree. Yep. Dr. Harold Hong: So for instance, with all the, with how amazing life can be after recovery, I think a lot of people, they don't know what joy is or happiness is until [00:40:00] they've gone through the recovery. But again, people just don't know what they don't know. Right? And so if, if there are people out there who, who have a sense like maybe something's not right with my loved one or, or our family system. , like what are some things that are a telltale sign that they, they would really benefit by working with someone like you? Like what are some things that they could have noticed a year before they hit rock bottom or six months before they hit rock bottom? What are some signs that they Frances: need help? That's a really good question. What's interesting for me is that by the time I walk in the. for the loved one, that loved one knows exactly what's happening. Mm-hmm. time and time and time again. Mm-hmm. and 90 plus percent, the loved [00:41:00] one in the meeting will say, yeah, I've had a problem. Mm-hmm. , which is often surprising to me because I know how heavy and large and wide denial is. Mm. And what's interesting is that families, when they call me, I ask them, how long have you known it was a problem? And inevitably, the longer they talk to me, the longer we are working through the process, writing the letters, having conversations, the longer the usage tends to be. Mm-hmm. where. Oh, it's just the past three months? Nah, no, actually it's been a couple years. No, actually it's more like five years. No, actually it started in high school. Whoa. And what I often hear from families is I wish I'd said something then, but I didn't know what to say. Yep. And one of the things that I know, and [00:42:00] you all know, is that words can be pretty thin. Mm-hmm. pretty cheap and often ineffective. Mm-hmm. , we're never gonna convince someone that they need to go get help one-on-one. Yeah. One-on-one. It will never work. The disease, whether it's mental health and or substance use disorder, will run circles around us. Yep. Wow. So what I often say to families, Compassion, compassion, compassion. It takes what it takes. And no matter how bad it's been, we're gonna offer a solution today. Yep. And who knows whether it would've worked 10 years ago, five years ago, five months ago. When the family is ready, the teacher arrives. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You know, it's the same as when the student is ready, the teacher arrives. Mm-hmm. . . Dr. Harold Hong: It's beautiful. [00:43:00] Wow. Graham: I love it. Well, you know, this has been a great conversation and I think you have given us such, so much great information for families and hopefully they can, they can, you know, reach out to you if they need help. And we will have all of your information you know, in our, in our clip, in our thumbnail on, on the website. So thank you so much, Francis, for coming in. This is always such a pleasure of seeing you spending time with you. Thank you. and look forward to working with some more clients with you soon. Yes, Frances: yes, likewise, collaboration. Thank you both so much. It's been a privilege. Thank you. Course. Graham: Thanks y'all. Show Notes Welcome to the New Waters Recovery podcast, where we explore the journey to recovery alongside esteemed guests from the addiction treatment industry. Today, we have the privilege of sitting down with Frances Murchison, a professional certified interventionist and recovery coach from Whole Family Intervention, who brings a wealth of expertise to the discussion. With over three decades of sobriety, Frances is a holistic health coach, author, speaker, retreat leader, and yoga instructor with a passion for supporting individuals and families to break free from addiction and embrace a life of recovery, resilience, and wholeness. In this episode, our CEO/Founder, Graham Doerge, Medical Director, Dr. Harold Hong, and Frances Murchison, dive deep into the intervention process, which is a carefully planned procedure that involves a team of professionals and loved ones. The aim is to encourage individuals struggling with addiction to seek help in a compassionate, caring, and respectful manner. Frances shares valuable insights into the intervention process, from preparing for the intervention to selecting a treatment center. She emphasizes the significance of having a trained interventionist to guide the process, ensuring that it is done with the utmost sensitivity. Throughout the podcast, Frances dispels common myths and misconceptions about interventions while addressing the role of family dynamics in the recovery process. Listeners gain practical strategies and tips for navigating the intervention process, providing hope and support to those struggling with addiction. Join us on the New Waters Recovery podcast as we journey towards recovery together. Don't forget to subscribe and tune in weekly to gain further insights from our esteemed guests. Frances Murchison Links: https://www.wilmingtonyogacenter.com/teachers/frances-murchison/ (https://www.wilmingtonyogacenter.com/teachers/frances-murchison/) https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-murchison-36631919/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-murchison-36631919/) https://www.arise-network.com/expert/frances-murchison/ (https://www.arise-network.com/expert/frances-murchison/) https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-murchison-72ba3b188/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-murchison-72ba3b188/) https://www.facebook.com/frances.murchison/ (https://www.facebook.com/frances.murchison/) https://mindfullyfed.com (https://mindfullyfed.com) https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2964436.Frances_Murchison (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2964436.Frances_Murchison)

In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. < Back to Episodes Mind, Body, Healing: Natasha Silver Bell on the Role of Spirituality in Recovery 44:59 min | Natasha Silver Bell | Finding New Waters In the "Mind, Body, Healing" episode, Natasha Silverbell shares her recovery journey and how it inspired Silverbell Coaching's holistic approach to substance use and mental health issues. The discussion stresses breaking generational trauma patterns and maintaining work-life balance in recovery. Subscribe "All we can do is create the space for the healing and the awareness and the family, and then put those beautiful practitioners in place and hold them accountable. But we're not attached to that outcome. That family has a right for their journey and their path" - Natasha Silver Bell Podcast Transcript #014 Natasha Silverbell Natasha Silver bell: [00:00:00] Whosoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow within him. By this he meant the spirit when those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time, the spirit had not been given since Jesus had not yet been glorified, and I think Christ isn't with us in the physical world anymore, but he lives within us. Natasha Silver bell: That's what Union is all about and understanding. Uh, it's ev every human we are in Christ's image, in God's image, and it's if we can get past the dogma and the anger and the hurt and the suffering of what religion, organized religion has done. And there's a lot of good things organized religion has done, but really has to do with that condition of the heart. Natasha Silver bell: That's what Christ came to do is build a relationship with your heart, and that's up to you and him if you wanna use that vessel.[00:01:00] Graham Doerge: Good morning. My name is Graham Durge, and I'm the founder and c e o of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to our weekly podcast, finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with substance use or mental health. Graham Doerge: When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light on what is often the darkest hour for many families. I'm joined today by our medic, by our medical director, Dr. Harold Hong and Natasha Silverbell, the founder and c e O of Silver Bell Coaching and Youth Prevention Mentors. Graham Doerge: Natasha has been an established expert in the substance use space for over a decade and has grown Silverbell coaching into a global leader. [00:02:00] Silverbell Coaching is headquartered in New York City and has a satellite locations in London and Dubai. Natasha, thanks for joining us today. Natasha Silver bell: It's my pleasure. Natasha Silver bell: It's so great to see you and congratulations on all your success. I'm really happy for you. Thank you very Graham Doerge: much, ma'am. Well, you know, Natasha and I, uh, go back many years and, uh, have worked on, you know, many cases together, you know, for probably about the last six or seven years. So it's great to get her on here. Graham Doerge: And, uh, and really I'd love to start with just hearing a little bit about, you know, I guess your story or how much you'd love to, you'd like to share with us on that. And just, I guess, how did you, you know, get into this field and, um, and in your own, your own personal recovery, how has that really shaped your life today? Natasha Silver bell: Wow, that's a really great opener and I'm happy to share what I feel will, will honestly be most helpful. And as I begin sharing my story, I like to begin with, how did my company find me? Cuz really I didn't have a business plan and sit down and raise capital and say, this is what I'm going to do. [00:03:00] Um, it was certainly just following where my heart was leading me, most importantly, and what was important for me as a sober mother of three. Natasha Silver bell: Raising my children on the upper East side of Manhattan and reinventing myself as a former model and finding a way to be of help to others, but really be effective. And I think that's the most important piece I look when I create a team or collaboration, is how can we work together in alignment. To have a harmonious outcome and the family system is complex, so it's not that easy to do and navigating it. Natasha Silver bell: And I really love the name of your, your podcast, finding New Waters, cuz that's what we're doing with our families. Graham Doerge: Yep. And would you say, you know, and tell us a little bit about, uh, Silverbell coaching itself and really the work that you guys do now you guys are, you know, doing interventions and really case management for, for these families. Graham Doerge: So can you kind of dig into that a little bit and, uh, tell people what that process is like? Natasha Silver bell: Sure. So we [00:04:00] are, um, by God's grace, a word of mouth company, and. Finding people who, or people finding us that are really needing the support is, is the catch, because I wanna find the opening, um, openings of Grace is what they've been called. Natasha Silver bell: Sometimes it's not a full on intervention. Sometimes it's just a gentle conversation as I'm a mother of three, from one mother to another, and I always do a courtesy 20 minutes to see is this a good fit? Is our company the. Where your family is at, are you really gonna benefit from our services? And I like to listen to where they're at and pretty quickly I know if they can benefit or not, or if I'm gonna refer them to someone else or another path in another direction. Natasha Silver bell: I. So I hope that answers your question, but, um, at least the openings of grace is where I'm looking to be the most helpful with families. But yes, there are interventions. There's in-home support creating treatment without walls. People call it, um, quarterbacking while they're loved. One does go to treatment so the family system can have support because oftentimes, [00:05:00] The quote unquote identified patient goes and gets all this wonderful help and the family system is then left and needs to be that reframing and that new water flow that is needed. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Uh, question for you, NA, Natasha. So I work with a lot of families and I could say the time to get help was probably a year ago. And what are some things that families could know about? And say, Hey, actually now is the time to go get help. Now is the time to do Aqua Call with Silver Barrel Coaching and see if we can, we can make a CH difference in our family. Natasha Silver bell: Well, that's a beautiful call to take and I'm definitely here for that. So I'll set up a courtesy gym for anywhere up to an hour to really understand. I prefer to have both stakeholders. Usually that's a mom and dad. It could be a care provider, it could be a trust and estates attorney, could be a, uh, you know, a financial wealth manager. Natasha Silver bell: And so there are many different people who are really important to shift [00:06:00] the family system and the ethos of what hasn't worked to what can work. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, I have have clients and they'll say, oh, you know, Samuel drinks, but it's always been like this. Um, you know, why do, why make a change? Now, I'm not sure, or sure he got a D u I, but he got a D UI five years ago. Dr. Harold Hong: Like, why, why do we need to do something big right now? Sure. So if I would, so what are some things that I think people just need to get calibrated on reality. Like, actually this is okay. This is not okay. Um, but your, your rules about what's okay are a little bit flipped around and, uh, you know, what are some common things you've seen people do that they accept that's actually not acceptable? Natasha Silver bell: So while I'll ask them, let's just say that the person calling me's name is Amy. And I'll say to Amy, who's a mother of a 25 year old, and we're speaking. So there's, there's some information right there. We're connecting and why are we connecting? Why me? Why this level of support [00:07:00] is even a curiosity. And I wanna explore that curiosity with them and understand what brings them peace at night. Natasha Silver bell: And what's disrupting their piece and let's explore mm-hmm. Is that piece not there. And that's really for them to come to terms with. And that's where we will begin a much more gentle, lighter touch approach of parent coaching one-on-one where we're there in real time. We are not clinicians, although many of our, our coaches are clinician trained and we have clinical training for them, but we're. Natasha Silver bell: Really helping motivate the parents to understand what it is they want for their family system when they need it. So we're not gonna diagnose and treat, we're gonna take the present moment, and that means responsive in the day, in the hour of need. And that's the difference between coaching versus a therapeutic support. Natasha Silver bell: Mm-hmm. Which we do wanna work with their therapists. We then hopefully bring in that more robust approach and who are the people in their lives that they are listening to and benefiting from. Who do, maybe they have had a, [00:08:00] a great support system, but it's not yielding what they want anymore, hence, mm-hmm. Natasha Silver bell: The disruption and peace. Mm-hmm. And how then we can create a new ethos so we can find that, that flow of peace. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: I love that question that you po that, what, what do you or do you not have peace about? Because I think all too common, people think the, the time for intervention is when the house is on fire. Dr. Harold Hong: Like when there's a three alarm fire blazing away. But the bar for getting help is actually much, much sooner than that. It's do you have peace or Natasha Silver bell: not? Many people wait for the bottom and there's always a trap door in the bottom and right. Talking about how we can help people, you know, and, and obviously in a 12 step program, there's a whole chapter in the back talking about the higher bottom and the edited versions for relevant now. Natasha Silver bell: Just like, you know, the King James version, version of the Bible is not relevant now, you know? Mm-hmm. I like seeing different interpretations of language that's relevant now to understand where people are [00:09:00] for movements of change, Dr. Harold Hong: I. Yep. Graham Doerge: Love it. So can we, can we go back a little bit and talk about your treatment without walls? Graham Doerge: Um, and I, um, you know, want to elaborate on that a little bit cuz it's very unique to what you guys do and, uh, and we actually worked on a case, uh, you know, not too long ago together, uh, and, and went very well. And, um, I just think that. You know, sharing with families, you know, that there are kind of other alternatives, other options, other resources out there that are a little outside the box. Graham Doerge: Um, but, but, you know, have great results, um, is, is really helpful. Natasha Silver bell: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that. Um, yeah. First of all, I just wanna commend you guys and what you've created and what you have put together because having a sophisticated detox facility is a part of the Rehab Without Walls because we don't, there are many companies out there that. Natasha Silver bell: Do in-home detoxes. I thank a stabilization for that very sensitive time where people are changing their whole body chemistry, their mindset, so that we can be set up [00:10:00] well when we go back into the in-home model is really important for that transition piece. Um mm-hmm. When I say rehab without walls, it really does mean living life on life's terms where that family system is. Natasha Silver bell: So oftentimes we're working with young adults that are at college and we're living off campus close by and coming and supporting them in their daily. Routine of showing up to class on time. Really those life skill developments and creating new social structures so that they can learn how to stay with their life goals. Natasha Silver bell: Whether that is abstinence or it's just getting to class on time, getting homework done, learning how to cook, driving, living on a budget. Those are the, you know, that. Probably 18 to 25 year old age group that we're really known for quite well. And those, those programs really go out around nine months to a year because the truth is I don't wanna be in business. Natasha Silver bell: Uh, again, I wanna do a one one. And your done shop really with [00:11:00] a family system. And usually with a really sophisticated good detox program and then setting up, um, a navigation plan throughout the year. Um, we find that when you hit one year of continuous setting of life goals, usually abstinence, but I don't judge anybody's family system. Natasha Silver bell: We've done other pathways. Um, when the whole family system is engaged, we have a primary family therapist. You know, each parent has their own support system, whether it's a parent coach or. A therapist and there's an overseeing psychiatrist that's managing the medical treatment and there's a primary therapist that's working with the loved one. Natasha Silver bell: Then we're coordinating that cares as a vessel that's holding all those um, professionals together. And we do a lot with eating disorders as well. So there's been very complicated teams, but when it's run well, It's really effort. This, I mean, look at, look at all the systems out there in the world that are run well and do it with excellence. Natasha Silver bell: And then there's ones that, it's just a matter of clear [00:12:00] communication and effective, um, philosophical approach. Graham Doerge: Yeah. And, and that's, and I think is the biggest barrier for a lot of people. Obviously, you know, not everybody can afford something like that, you know, a year long kind of program. But obviously if you are able to then, um, what a great alternative. Graham Doerge: I, I, I just think about kind of, I always think about my story too, right? And I was in college and was just, A disaster. And I could have really utilized something like that, um, that, that extra support, you know, getting to, getting into class and, and doing all that. But, um, and I think that at that point, my family, you know, college was more important, right? Graham Doerge: They just wanted to get me through school, get me through school, because that's kind of what, I guess, looked good to the outside world, right? Mm-hmm. So, Natasha Silver bell: um, Exactly. Just have a, if you just have your degree and get a job, you'll be fine. Which exactly red herring if you Graham Doerge: will. A hundred percent. So, you know, I think that obviously, you know, those [00:13:00] families that just, um, they are not willing to put their, their child or their son or, uh, loved one into a program for any period of time. Graham Doerge: I mean, doing something like that is, is really unique. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Becky, you any questions? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Um, I'm just, when you're talking about, uh, coaching versus therapy, um, what are some, what are some things that would make a coach a great fit for Natasha Silver bell: a family? Um, Oh, what a great question. It ha, I'm, I'm really a, a very sophisticated matchmaker and so that's why I love my courtesy zooms on the front end of every case, which I do have the luxury of doing and being a part of putting those teams together, understanding what is the family's journey been like, what are their struggles? Natasha Silver bell: What are they looking to change and what are their likes and dislikes? Their mannerisms, their gestures, their passions, their hobbies, their talents, their, where were they born? What languages do they speak? And so you can, it's not always, oh, you're from the same country in the [00:14:00] same background and I'm gonna push you together. Natasha Silver bell: That's not always the right match. It has to do with the head space of where they wanna go and what do they wanna accomplish with the family. So matching a parent with a certain parent is really strategic, um, matching the loved one. Uh, oftentimes there are two coaches on teams that we rotate. Um, and so we just wanna make sure that we're putting together the right type of energy to create that connection. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. I think that's so key. Uh, to, to really make it bespoke, uh, to the client and their unique situation. Um, and a lot of times I see this idea that, uh, like here's our mechanism, like here's our program. Like everyone enters, everyone proceeds, and everyone comes out better on the other end. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's like part of our assessment approach has been to take a very detailed assessment of what does the current state look like. Dr. Harold Hong: Because you know, [00:15:00] if you want to get to Washington, DC and you're in New York, your path is gonna look one way. But if you're coming from Austin, Texas, it's gonna be a very different pathway. Mm-hmm. I think there, there's like an app metaphor to what recovery looks like for individuals and the families that are caring for them. Dr. Harold Hong: And so I think the, the silver ball coaching approach that's. Ultra bespoke and like really sensitive to, uh, the unique characteristics of the family. Mm-hmm. Uh, what are their strengths? What are their development goals? Um, what are their preferences? Uh, what, what types of energies do they really thrive in? Dr. Harold Hong: I think that's like a great recipe for success. And, you know, just a big part of the reason why we love working with you. Natasha Silver bell: Thank you. I, I will, uh, dovetail on that because we are partnering with the family, not so much the clinicians. That's my wheelhouse to really research the best in class clinicians around the world and find out who I can partner with whom and what countries. Natasha Silver bell: And so when we really are partnering with the families, I'm not here to replace them, [00:16:00] we are going to be making sure this family system finds a new way of flowing so that they don't need us and that detailed approach. You know, Joanna was just reminding me, she's our creative director, she's brilliant. Um, that I was trained by a forensic psychologist, Dr. Natasha Silver bell: Marvin Aronson in New York City for many years. The approach that we have today is still the same approach that he taught us. What does that mean? So it's a level of accurate reporting and diligence. Mm-hmm. So we have a very sophisticated portal that we putting our realtime notes into that the clinical team can choose to engage and read and then defer and shift their treatment based on what they're reading. Natasha Silver bell: So manners. Gestures, reactions? How did that person come home? Um, so it's, it may sound invasive, but it's actually really fruitful and beneficial for this in-home approach to work. If you're in a hospital, the, the doctors are doing rounds with the nurses, there's portals, there's notes. Everybody has to take their notes. Natasha Silver bell: They have to, or you are not doing your job. [00:17:00] Mm-hmm. So why isn't that level of vigilance being done? Um, at least I don't know what other people are doing, but I've, I've had a lot of people say I've never, I've never seen such. Diligence before. Hmm. Graham Doerge: Yeah. No, and, and I mean, I think that that's everything, right? Graham Doerge: Is, um, and, and that's kind of my, my feeling about treatment really in general nowadays is, is that really, uh, in order to do really excellent treatment, you've gotta have that kind of smaller, uh, more boutique. Feel, you know, I, I just feel like, you know, um, you know, again, going back to like the, the bespoke and, and individual individualization, I mean, so every client that kind of comes to us, you know, Dr. Graham Doerge: Hong, as you kind of explained, or, you know, you're meeting with them to do a very detailed assessment and, and everybody's treatment plan is gonna look a little bit different, which is not really the case at most places, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, there's in, in a lot of places it's just kind of, you know, running you through the process and this is how we do things and it's, and it's kind of, um, a cookie cutter, [00:18:00] you know, scenario. Graham Doerge: Um, so, uh, I do think that, you know, we need to look, look towards those really small programs for, for that type of work. Um, and you know, we talked a little bit yesterday, uh, about a topic, uh, that I'd love to get into cuz I know you're very passionate about it. Um, but really the condition of the heart. Um, and you know, I'd love for you to kind of, uh, elaborate on that and what that means to you and, um, and, and talk about that a little bit. Natasha Silver bell: Thank you so much for that assist. I'm, yeah. Someone who doesn't shy away from the conversation about a sense of where do you get your source. Some people call it God, I'm a Christian and I'm not afraid to say that. And I think it's, um, something that isn't talked about enough is that we are really helping heal the family system and their hearts. Natasha Silver bell: And when I really look through all the externals, I don't care how someone comes to me and presents to me because what I know about the human condition, That we all want healing and we want [00:19:00] connection, and we wanna be understood, and we wanna be loved. Now, where's that boundary between enabling and supporting real continuity of care shifts and change That lies in the discernment of the moment, and we can't know that and until we're there. Natasha Silver bell: And so really pausing and waiting without judgment to assess and move through with an open heart, one heart to another human to human. How can I be of service and help you? I love Graham Doerge: that. It's beautiful. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. You can say more about, uh, what the concept of, like the condition of the heart means, means to you and how that is something of a compass in navigating your work with your clients. Natasha Silver bell: Well, that's really well said. And being a medical doctor, I mean, I'm not that well studied in, in medicine, but I've, I've sat in thousands of really renowned psychiatrists office and listened to how they work and there is a, with the best in the world, I'd say there is a, there is a gentle, compassionate touch with all [00:20:00] that medical excellence that they are really tapping into that human condition. Natasha Silver bell: And so I'm sure that all the doctors that I've worked with would, would talk about, you know, the condition of the heart, what makes a healthy heart and all of that. But really it's that compassion piece I think that can, if, if one heart, let's say if I'm sitting down with someone, my heart is open and full of compassion for that suffering human being, how can I be so of service to help them heal? Natasha Silver bell: And when someone is met with nothing but that, that's what you get back, you get the openings of mm-hmm. You get the beginning of those moments of grace where they feel seen and heard, where they're not going to be put aside or judged or I've got my checklist out. You know, I usually, uh, I'm not sitting there taking a lot of notes myself, but, um, it is really an important to make them feel seen and heard so that they can feel whole and how they bring their family system that's been suffering to you. Graham Doerge: Which is so [00:21:00] unique in today's age, right? We never stop and connect with people. It really has become so impossible. There's just so much information coming at us all day, every day, so many responsibilities. Kids, family, all that. And, uh, I just think that that's such an important piece to, to really just stop with these families, uh, be in the moment. Graham Doerge: And, and obviously, you know, as you said, connect with 'em, right? I mean, this is, this is really heart-centered work, uh, that we're doing and mm-hmm. It's gotta kind of start there. I will. Absolutely. Natasha Silver bell: I'll Oh, go ahead. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, uh, just as you were talking with us, it, I, I was getting a sense of what it would be like to be in the room, uh, if you're in a coaching session or if you're hosting an intervention conversation. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, and it just strikes me as being so different in a tremendously better way than what, what's kind of status quo, because I mean, in healthcare there's, there's so much of this idea of like, there's a practice guideline, there's the right way. To do things, here's the [00:22:00] right thing, here's the wrong thing. Dr. Harold Hong: And everything just comes down to like being correct or incorrect, like being mm-hmm. On track with the practice guidelines that have been established for like a population, but not necessarily for you. And that has a lot to do with the underlying issues of this black and white thinking that really feeds addiction and emotional pain. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. And so I think like this, this idea that. Let's come to this conversation by first reflecting on how are we feeling in our heart about ourselves? Like, how are we feeling about the person we're focusing on for the intervention? And let's discern our motivation, or like, let's discern like what's actually restorative for this person. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Um, that's a radically different approach than, yeah. Um, traditional clinical care. It's delivered these days. So that is such a gift for the families that you're working with. [00:23:00] Natasha Silver bell: Thank you. Thank you so much for sa for sharing that. And it is, it is a real, um, an honor and a grace to sit down with a family and really see them without the past and be in the present moment, because that's the only time that change can occur is in the present. Natasha Silver bell: And helping them harness their power within that moment. And what that does is it, it creates these openings to talk about God. To talk about there. Maybe, you know, there's a lot of recovering Catholics, and I'm a recovering Christian too. I ran from my up my dogmatic upbringing and went on my prodigal son journey and came back with my own seeking and my own investigation. Natasha Silver bell: I love to quote Rumi, where what you seek is seeking you. So that that famous quote by Rumi, what you seek is seeking you and just creating that spark of curiosity with them to reinvestigate. Not be so angry and hurt by the may th by maybe the way they were raised, and that [00:24:00] maybe there might be something out there that can really help assist them in their healing journey. Natasha Silver bell: Because most families that I work with that come to us have lost their faith. They've lost, mm-hmm. Any connection to a source and understanding of a higher power. They feel so wounded and, and hurt by it, and very gently, very gently. We tap into those conversations when they're ready to hear that message. Natasha Silver bell: Uh, recently with my, my worldly, um, Travels. I've come across the last few years of an incredible young man named Neo Hart and he is what they would call an alchemist years ago. That was new for me to understand what alchemy is and what is that approach. And it's very non-threatening. It's very relevant now, I think alchemy, um, is something that. Natasha Silver bell: Can be a very gentle approach to people to be curious. And Nio, what I really appreciate about him is he created something, uh, 20 years of his life's work. Um, he studied in Japan and, and all over the [00:25:00] world and he created a deck of cards. They're not, uh, fortune telling. I'm not somebody who believes in listening to others. Natasha Silver bell: Tell me my future. I'm very much, uh, wanna empower the person that they can create their own future. Mm-hmm. But he created a deck of cards that have words on it that he defined over many, many years to, to produce this. And they're out now. And, um, we use them with our clients now. And for example, one of the cards would be Soar. Natasha Silver bell: The definition of sword and what does that mean and what does that mean to that person? And then going into his definition. So his definition is very robust and gentle and kind. But for me to share with you what the, the word sword means is sword of the tongue. And I think we forget how powerful our words are and how they're connected to our. Natasha Silver bell: And that mind heart connection is so powerful. I used to follow and still do. He's since passed away an um, evangelical pastor who was an atheist from India, [00:26:00] named Dr. Revy Zacharia, and his headquarters were in Atlanta. Um, he um, he has created a big center in following. He recently just passed away a few years ago. Natasha Silver bell: And he would go debate college students. And um, and he would always say the most challenging connection, the most difficult connection for every living human being is the heart mind connection. Mm-hmm. How can we. Heart mind connection to be in with the integrity of the person we are, were to become, or who we haven't been, and how we can nurture that inner child. Natasha Silver bell: A lot of the clinicians do that inner child work. How do we bring that suffering child out to the light without doing it at a pace that's going to, let's say, backtrack us? So it's a very gentle approach. Um, yeah. So. Graham Doerge: And, you know, talking about that, the, the mind heart connection, obviously that takes practice, right? Graham Doerge: And there are things that we need to be doing to, um, you know, to make that [00:27:00] connection stronger. Uh, and, and so what are some of those things that you practice in, in kind of your daily routine? Or is it meditation? Is it, you know, some sort of somatic therapy? Um, and what, what do you do on that? Natasha Silver bell: So currently today? Natasha Silver bell: Um, yeah. What my practice is is, you know, some people call it in the 12 steps, that constant contact with God. That's what I'm aspiring to throughout my day. How can I remain in the divine connection without being weird or crazy or that I'm always on a pink cloud or something. That's not reality. Um, I am very much grounded in the present moment and I am very comfortable there because I. Natasha Silver bell: That's the only time I can tap into that conscious contact ways in which I help myself do that. Um, currently is I do read a lot of scripture. I like reading in the amplified version, it has the aaic, the Hebrew, and the Greek translations of each word. So I can do a deep investigation of, of, of something. Natasha Silver bell: And I wanna share with you, uh, a passage. Yeah. And it has to do with [00:28:00] finding new waters. Mm-hmm. And so, mm-hmm. Hm, I thought I would give this to you. It's comes from the Book of John, and I'm gonna find it here one second. From the book of John and, um, whosoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of Living water will flow within him. Natasha Silver bell: By this, he meant the spirit. Those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time, the spirit had not been given since Jesus had not yet been glorified, and I think Christ isn't with us in the physical world anymore, but he lives within us. That's what Union is all about and understanding within. Natasha Silver bell: It's ev every human we are in Christ's image, in God's image, and it's if we can get past the dogma and the anger and the hurt and the suffering of what religion, organized religion has done, and there's a lot of good things organized religion has done, but really has to do with that condition of the [00:29:00] heart. Natasha Silver bell: That's what Christ came to do is build a relationship with your heart. And that's up to you and him if you wanna use that vessel. And Christ isn't here to save. Every single soul isn't going to accept that, and that's okay too, but find something that works for you. And that's where the alchemy creates a beautiful opening with these cards. Natasha Silver bell: Because if I could read and maybe we'll send them to you later. Uh, love that. Really beautiful. Really. I'll send you a deck as, as a courtesy and you can Google and research. Um, he's so gentle and kind and. And not being, I think the most important piece in our work and what I identified with Neo in his work. Natasha Silver bell: Although he's not a Christian, I really honor and respect, I have a reverence towards his work and his journey because he's not attached to the outcome. And I think that's probably the most important piece in our work and certainly in S B C, is that all we can do is create the space for the healing and the awareness and the family, and then put those beautiful practitioners in [00:30:00] place and hold them accountable. Natasha Silver bell: But we're not attached to that outcome. That family has a right for their journey and their path have. Graham Doerge: Wow. That's Dr. Harold Hong: really powerful. Mm-hmm. How, how do you work with families that maybe don't feel. As in touch with your spirituality as you feel in touch with your spirituality? We don't, I, I think that this is so key. Natasha Silver bell: We don't send them, it's foremost. Dr. Harold Hong: You don't send them the what? The podcast. Podcast. Natasha Silver bell: Um, I'm just not, I don't live in, uh, fear anymore of what people will think of me and my relationship with Christ, but I certainly don't lead with it. I can read someone's, as soon as they even send me an email about how open they are. Natasha Silver bell: To the healing journey. And there are many cases where I've never, they never know my, my relationship with Christ. They don't need to to heal. It's not about me. And so I just wanna create the vessel of compassion [00:31:00] and awareness and that willingness. People say, oh, you can't help somebody who's not willing. Natasha Silver bell: Yes you can. Oh yes, you can. You can create willingness. It doesn't mean force. That's where you begin with those stakeholders. It's slow intervening. Years and years ago, there was a woman in New York City, um, and you've been to the SBC Townhouse Graham, you know, um, and she was there leading a workshop. Her name was Jam Grossi, and she's still treating people up in, uh, Connecticut. Natasha Silver bell: She's fantastic. Mm-hmm. And she watched what I was doing. This was about eight years ago, and she watched what I was doing with this community of young men, and she was, Under trying to understand my approach to how they all became, you know, in their sober journey together and created community. But beyond that, she says, what you're doing are interventions? Natasha Silver bell: I said, no, I'm not a trained interventionist. She goes, Natasha, it's a compliment what you're doing in intervening in these people's lives at a pace that is sustainable and palatable. Mm-hmm. And that's that temperature of [00:32:00] creating willingness. If someone is showing up, I've had other people outside of our space say, how do you work with addicts and alcoholics and people who are, you know, so sick mentally. Natasha Silver bell: I know they lie to you all the time, and I just look at them with so much compassion and I'll say, they're not lying to me. I'm not taking on their, their suffering in that capacity. I am. Making sure they're feeding off of what I'm offering them instead of me taking on their, their, their burdens is what they are, but it's, you know, that mm-hmm. Natasha Silver bell: That scripture, the yoke is easy and the burden's light. It really is. Yeah. You know, and if you can be that essence of hope and healing for them, all their worries and their concerns eventually fade away and you're, you really are creating a space of, of them to want to get better. Right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: And as I'm listening to you, Natasha, I'm, I'm just realizing a new thing about advice that I would give to [00:33:00] clients or family members that are looking for help is what's your sense of their heart? Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, because there are people who have a hard heart that, that are in the business, that are, that are trying to work with clients. And I think those relationships, the progress is, is very difficult, if not sometimes. No movement or even backwards movement. Um, but we all, we've all had those experiences where we're working with people who have, there's something unique about them. Dr. Harold Hong: Like there, there's a tenderness, there's a wisdom. Mm-hmm. There's a deep spiritual connection and it's, you feel it, it's not based on what they're saying, but you can see it in their actions. You can see it in their tone. How they connect with people. And I think part of recovery in rehab is for people who have hard hearts. Dr. Harold Hong: It's to see what life is like for people who have wise and healthy hearts. Right. Amen. But un, until you see it, it's hard to imagine what it [00:34:00] would look like. Yeah. And even more difficult to make that transition Natasha Silver bell: if, if I may. And I think therein lies such an important PA part, especially to our industry because we are in the healing industry. Natasha Silver bell: We're in the behavioral space of mind body healing and helping people find their path without judgment. So I'll, I'm engaged to a very successful, um, Columbia or, um, Cornell and Harvard Business School graduate who's an amazing man in my life. And he'll always say to me over my years, we've been together over a decade, he's watched my company grow and he's like, How is it that you are able to not only manage people who are really struggling and family systems, but you're managing people? Natasha Silver bell: Cuz everyone in my practice is. Is in recovery too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they're healing on their journey and it's a lot of, a lot of healing and wounds that are constantly maybe needing to be [00:35:00] tended to. So I wanna make sure that all of the coaches and the clinicians that are working. Within the S B C system have their own governance and care and we offer supervision and we help make sure that they're doing their work so they can give that beautiful offering to someone else. Natasha Silver bell: Cuz you can't give away what you don't have. And I think that speaks right to your point, is the condition of the provider's heart. And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Yes. I'm helping them pay attention to their own heart and helping, but you can't tap into that if your heart isn't in a healthy space that is creating mm-hmm. Natasha Silver bell: That healing process. Graham Doerge: I mean, that's so on the money and, and it's something that we talk about on, on the regular, uh, here just because, you know, first and foremost for me, having a really healthy culture, um, is the most important thing. And that kind of starts with our staff, right? Taking care of our staff first and foremost, making sure, as you said, probably 75% of our staff is in recovery. Graham Doerge: So, you [00:36:00] know, and they're getting triggered and they're, you know, listen, even if you're six, eight years in recovery, you know, things are still gonna come up and you're gonna have struggles and you're gonna have difficulties. And, um, and we, you know, that work-life balance is, is such a, uh, essential part of this process, but also continuing the work. Graham Doerge: Right. And not, and not, I think what we see so much is that people stop doing work on themselves and, uh, that's right. And get a little bit crispy. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. Natasha Silver bell: Word it is crispy. And I think it's so important because when we're working with a family system, whoever is the primary caring vessel, whether it's the case manager, the coach, the therapist, the detox center, is that we're always asking the family system and the parents, what can they do? Natasha Silver bell: To change the ethos because it really does start in a parenting, and I am not saying as a mother of three, I am not saying the parents are a problem. There is gen genetic trauma that's being diagnosed and uncovered these days. I'm working with really, uh, a really great [00:37:00] psychiatrist in the United Kingdom named Dr. Natasha Silver bell: Wayne Campers. He's a trauma and pain management specialist, and he does many of, there's genetic testing that's really important, but understanding generational trauma. And understanding bloodlines and understanding that, hold on a second. Some of your kids can turn out like everything seems fine and they're checking off all the boxes and they're skipping to school, and your other child is not getting out of bed. Natasha Silver bell: What, what am I doing as a parent that can be better? So having that space where the parents don't feel that they've done something wrong and asking them to go what neo calls is a deeper intelligence of themselves. Because parents, although maybe didn't cause the trauma, they can help shift that new that, as you would say, finding new waters so that they don't have to live in that old trauma. Natasha Silver bell: And I think that's the trickiest part. The word crispy just triggered me to think of it. Grams. I just wanna, that's the heaviest lifting is with the parents because no parent wants to be told that they screwed [00:38:00] up and they didn't. They didn't. But they have an opportunity to find something new now. Yep. Graham Doerge: Yeah. Yeah. And we're fortunate enough that, you know, hopefully those, you know, that generational trauma or wounds, um, you know, us getting into recovery is, is gonna stop that pattern. Right? Um, and that's the hope. That's, you know, that we are passing this down to our children and we can, you know, we can really do some, some great, uh, change. Graham Doerge: Um, you know, I have three daughters myself, and, you know, obviously, you know, cards are probably stacked against us. That one of them is gonna have an issue, right. My wife's in recovery, I'm in recovery. So, um, but you know, I, I do think it's, it's really interesting too, when we sit down, Dr. Hong actually does a, uh, a full genogram with all of our assessment clients, and it's just so informative. Graham Doerge: You know, he sits with them for an hour and a half and, and, you know, does it all by hand and for them to see the patterns and typically it kind of starts with. No, my childhood was great. I, you know, I had everything that I could have ever [00:39:00] wanted, and things were great, mom and dad were great, yada, yada, yada. Graham Doerge: And then you start digging into it and it's like maybe things weren't as rosy as I painted them to be. Mm-hmm. And seeing it in black and black and white is really powerful, I think. Right? Natasha Silver bell: It is. And I'm so glad you do that, Dr. Hong. You know, and also understanding with parents and loved ones that they weren't supposed to see it then, because they wouldn't have been able to cope with it and giving them some grace. Natasha Silver bell: How they can cope with it going forward and relieving that burden for the parents. You know, that's probably the bulk of our work is parents. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Yeah. I, I try and begin the sessions by saying we're, we're entering a, a special space where there's no judgment and there's no shame. We are just trying to be real. Dr. Harold Hong: And then we can go in and say, um, yes, uh, mom. Spine was in bed in depression for two years. But we can say that [00:40:00] without necessarily anger or resentment. We can just put it on the paper. And we use this huge sheet of paper and we, we really spread it out. And, and when we can say that without, uh, anger or resentment, then we open ourselves up to this new ability to see our history in a new way. Dr. Harold Hong: So we just opened, we just had a assessment client come through and, you know, it's amazing how the pattern is so common. Uh, lots of addiction, lots of self-destructive behaviors, and that leads them to come into the facility, uh, eye open with this very broad question, like what was it like to grow up in your home? Dr. Harold Hong: And it's usually the first answer is great. Perfect, wonderful. And, um, and then I say, okay, well tell me more about this relationship. Tell me more about that relationship. And then I'll, I just, I curious like, oh, that's interesting. You know, so mom, mom wasn't around and the kids, you [00:41:00] guys bought your groceries, you guys did your own cooking, and like, what was that like? Dr. Harold Hong: And. And then it, and then they start to remember more and more things. And then usually in each session there's this moment of stunned silent reflection as, as they're begin to rethink their history and they see things differently. And we, we tie it back to this, this earlier work where we say like, how do you relate to yourself? Dr. Harold Hong: And they, they see, oh, I relate to myself the way my parents relate to me. And then, oh, my parents treated me that way cuz that's how their parents treated them. And, and they're stunned. And then, and then I, I draw a circle around, usually they're their younger people and I draw a circle around them and their spouse or their young children, their family system. Dr. Harold Hong: And, and then they see that they have this ability to create, uh, a new line. Like a new way of, of, of a new [00:42:00] legacy, of inheritance, uh, for their generations to come. Well said. So that's, that's really an, an amazing experience. But I think it, to me, it really does feel like a, a sacred moment, right? It like there's something special happening. Dr. Harold Hong: There's some type of. Truth telling and restoration of the condition of the heart. In that Natasha Silver bell: moment, you are breaking ancestral trauma, ancestral generation. People will talk about. Dr. Aronson would talk a lot about the Holocaust survivors and what the genetic testing of Holocaust survivors and what would make them survive versus. Natasha Silver bell: That didn't, and you know, what was that about and how could some just go on and have a normal life after that and others couldn't. And understanding that and then how that manifests going forward and so on. But that's exactly what we're doing. We are talking about stopping centuries. And centuries. Natasha Silver bell: Mm-hmm. Generational trauma and patterns, and it's not [00:43:00] all bad. And helping them understand that it's only through suffering, you know, you only can really see light, you know, through the darkness. You don't get light just because it's light. You have to have that contrast to understand. Mm-hmm. So it's just so important to reframe that like you just said, this is a beautiful moment. Natasha Silver bell: Look, your mother had her own trauma that maybe she doesn't even know about and that's why she is the way she is and she can't even understand the way she is. But you can, you get to help but system heal without having to do your mother's work for her. And I think there's a, there's so much in that mother-daughter bond that we could spend many episodes on that is so important and vital. Natasha Silver bell: And then we could talk about the relationship with the father and how important that is. And that I will bring it back to that spiritual component because a mother typically is one who brings the spirituality into the home, however, It is when a father hits his knees, that it's the most [00:44:00] powerful for the children to watch and emulate. Natasha Silver bell: Mm-hmm. And when a father grace to a higher power, it is the most calming for a child. Yeah. Graham Doerge: Yeah. I love that. Well, you know, this has been a great time chatting with you, Natasha, and, and thank you so much for joining us today. Um, I did wanna say you can find these episodes on all streaming platforms. Um, uh, please visit, uh, Silverbell coaching@silverbellcoaching.com. Graham Doerge: Um, mm-hmm. And, and finding newWaters@findingnewwaters.com. And thanks so much and we will see you next week. Show Notes In this enlightening episode of the Finding New Waters podcast, Natasha Silver Bell, an addiction recovery coach, Graham Doerge, a recovery specialist, and Dr. Harold Hong, an addiction assessment expert, delve into the transformative journey of recovery from trauma and addiction. They engage in a powerful discussion on the role parents play in their children's recovery, the significance of acknowledging and addressing generational trauma, and the profound impact of establishing a non-judgmental therapeutic space. Silver Bell brings to the forefront the need for compassion and understanding towards parents, emphasizing their crucial role in altering the trajectory of generational trauma. She prompts parents to dig deeper into their own histories and explore the origins of their trauma to bring about positive change.Doerge shares his personal journey as a father in recovery, asserting the importance of halting the cycle of generational trauma for the well-being of future generations. His personal narrative serves as a beacon of hope, demonstrating that recovery can indeed break the pattern. Dr. Harold Hong demystifies his approach of using genograms with his patients, which helps them uncover patterns and understand their family histories that may have contributed to their struggles. He highlights his commitment to creating a non-judgmental environment for patients to freely express themselves and gain newfound self-understanding. Join our host as he navigates these in-depth discussions, reaffirming the recurring theme of hope and transformation. Listen as they underline the potential of therapy to sever the ties of generational trauma, thus enabling patients to establish healthier relationships within their families and carve a path of wellness for future generations. This podcast episode promises to deliver a wealth of insights into the recovery process. Remember, you can find Finding New Waters Podcast on all streaming platforms. Don't forget to visit the coaching websites mentioned for more resources and support.Stay tuned for the next episode for more enlightening discussions on the path to recovery. Natasha's Link: ⁠https://silverbellcoaching.com/⁠(https://silverbellcoaching.com/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/natasha-silver-bell-83237266/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/natasha-silver-bell-83237266/) https://www.instagram.com/thebell.sbc/ (https://www.instagram.com/thebell.sbc/) https://www.linkedin.com/company/silverbell-coaching/about/ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/silverbell-coaching/about/) Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/) Watch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4) Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw) Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share) Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=2)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery) Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery) Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery) Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc) For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey!

In this enlightening episode, we delve deep into the world of long-term addiction recovery with special guests Eric Button, Co-Founder of Burning Tree Ranch, and Graham Doerge, Founder of New Waters Recovery. Discover the ethos behind two groundbreaking treatment facilities that prioritize sustainable recovery and holistic care. < Back to Episodes KC Gooding: A Driving Force in Addiction Recovery & Marketing Leadership 44:36min | KC Gooding | Finding New Waters In this inspiring episode of "Finding New Waters," we sit down with KC Gooding, Chief Marketing Officer at Jaywalker Lodge. Join us as we delve into KC's remarkable journey from addiction and recovery to becoming a beacon of hope in the behavioral healthcare field. Discover how KC's personal experiences have driven his advocacy for addiction recovery, his involvement in legislative efforts, and his innovative approaches to marketing within the industry. Gain insights into the transformative power of recovery, as KC shares his dedication to helping individuals find their path to healing. Don't miss this engaging conversation with a true advocate for change and a driving force behind Jaywalker Lodge's mission. Subscribe "Success in recovery hinges on the bond they build through shared experiences in their relationship." -KC Gooding Show Notes Welcome to a brand new episode of "Finding New Waters." We're excited to introduce our guest, Kenneth C. Gooding, widely known as KC, who has recently taken on the role of Chief Marketing Officer at Jaywalker Lodge. Hosts Justin Mclendon and Ryan Jarrel dive deep into KC's impressive background and his invaluable contributions to the field of addiction recovery. KC joins the senior leadership team at Jaywalker Lodge, bringing with him a wealth of experience and a passion for helping individuals on their journey to recovery. In this episode, we discuss how KC's collaborative and creative approach has impacted the field of behavioral healthcare. He has held pivotal roles in organizations such as 449 Recovery, New Method Wellness, and Burning Tree Programs, serving as a brand ambassador, admissions counselor, family support specialist, and professional relations manager. Moreover, KC is not just a marketing expert; he is a dedicated advocate for the addiction recovery industry. Learn about his involvement as a state captain for advocacy efforts in California and Washington, D.C., his role in committees like NAADAC's public policy committee and NAATP's membership committee, and his leadership as the president of The California Alliance for State Advocacy (CASA). Join us in this engaging episode as KC shares his personal journey and discusses the critical importance of strategic partnerships, brand development, and clinical outreach in the world of addiction recovery. Whether you're seeking insight into addiction treatment or marketing leadership, KC Gooding's story and expertise offer a compelling perspective on both. Tune in now to "Finding New Waters" and be inspired by KC's dedication to making a difference in the lives of those seeking recovery and wellness. KC Gooding Links: ⁠https://jaywalkerlodge.com/jaywalker-lodge-welcomes-kc-gooding-as-chief-marketing-officer/⁠(https://jaywalkerlodge.com/jaywalker-lodge-welcomes-kc-gooding-as-chief-marketing-officer/) ⁠https://www.facebook.com/kc.gooding.5/⁠(https://www.facebook.com/kc.gooding.5/) ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/kc-gooding-0bab96132/⁠(https://www.linkedin.com/in/kc-gooding-0bab96132/) ⁠https://www.instagram.com/calisparty/⁠(https://www.instagram.com/calisparty/) Finding New Waters Links: Podcast Website: ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠ (https://www.findingnewwaters.com/)New Waters Recovery Website: ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠W(https://newwatersrecovery.com/)atch & Listen on Spotify: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4⁠ (https://open.spotify.com/show/4NOV2g85KExFWU5mTz5Gjw?si=f485f70900204da4)Apple Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608⁠⁠(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-new-waters/id1684075608) Youtube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw⁠ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfAIXtiOgy1XFcwAduXgXw)Youtube Music: ⁠https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share⁠ (https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJOc6yLcjibGGAKgLYPCN47etJCY89mn&feature=share)Google Podcast: ⁠https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw⁠ (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kZmI2YTk3NC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw?authuser=1)Follow Us on Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery⁠ (https://www.instagram.com/newwatersrecovery)Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery⁠⁠(https://www.facebook.com/newwatersrecovery)Linkedin: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery⁠ (https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-waters-recovery)Tiktok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc⁠ (https://www.tiktok.com/@newwatersrecovery_nc?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)For more information, to submit a question for our show, or to explore our affiliated detox center, visit the Finding New Waters website at ⁠⁠https://www.findingnewwaters.com⁠⁠(https://www.findingnewwaters.com/) and the New Waters Recovery Center at ⁠⁠https://newwatersrecovery.com⁠⁠(https://newwatersrecovery.com/). Join us on this transformative journey! Transcript KC GOODING VERTICAL [00:00:00] Justin Mclendon: How you doing, everybody? Thank you for joining us for another episode of Finding New Waters. My name is Justin McClendon, executive director here at New Waters Recovery. I'm joined by Ryan Jarrell, our continuing care coordinator. And then our guest today is no other than KC Gooding, who is the chief marketing officer with Jay Walker Lodge. Justin Mclendon: And Jay Walker is out in KC Gooding: it's Colorado? Yeah, Carbondale, Colorado. Justin Mclendon: There we go. So Casey, I always like to start this out if you're okay with it. And maybe just, I'm curious as to always, you know, what brought people into the field, right? So maybe just, you know, what got you interested in working in this field and where has that led you, KC Gooding: I guess. KC Gooding: Well, that's a funny story with me. I mean, and I think it starts with, you know, a lot of guys that do the work and professionals that do this work start with their own personal story of recovery. You know, I'm an alcoholic and an addict. I've been sober since 11 29 2012. At which time my family provided an opportunity for me to join them on this thing we know as recovery. KC Gooding: You [00:01:00] 35 years old, not doing much in life. I couldn't rub two nickels together. I managed to make it that far in my life, but in 2012 I was supported with the opportunity to enter treatment. I stayed in Southern California where I went to treatment for you know, so a good amount of time I ended up staying there a decade, but initially it was go through treatment, create AA recovery community, get a sponsor, work the steps and launch into recovery. KC Gooding: And as far as being a professional in the behavioral healthcare space, you know, to be completely honest with you guys, I did not really want to work in this field. Reason being is when I first went to treatment, I saw people that were working in tech positions. And, you know, I had a a girlfriend at the time who became my fiance, who's now my wife. KC Gooding: And, Okay. You know, I wasn't going to be a live in sober living manager or a behavioral health care tech. And I saw a lot of people that worked in you know, in the therapy, therapeutic components. And I wasn't going to go back to school and become a [00:02:00] therapist. Additionally, I didn't see a lot of people that were staying sober that were working in the field. KC Gooding: You know, a lot of those texts would get involved in the treatment business relatively early in their recovery. And we'd see them back in the meetings taking newcomer chips. And so for me it was a little bit scary. And there was obviously, I was getting sober in a very treatment saturated area in Southern California. KC Gooding: So, a lot of treatment around me, but not something necessarily that I was very vastly interested in. Until I had about two years of recovery and I found out that there were people that do admissions and marketing and business development that kind of coincided with a lot of the skills, personal skills that I had. KC Gooding: And a friend of mine was working at a treatment program who invited me to speak with his boss. And one thing led to another and here I am 10 years later. That's great, Ryan Jarrel: man. That's great. I can really empathize with that. I think Justin and I, we both, we were on the other side of the country in South Florida, and I think it's a very similar kind of environment where there's a [00:03:00] lot of treatment and not a lot of recovery, and it's an unfortunate thing to see kind of, kind of unfold around you. Ryan Jarrel: It can definitely leave a sour taste in your mouth regarding the industry. KC Gooding: That's very true. For sure. For sure. I mean, a lot of good treatment, a lot of very average treatment and some poor treatment, right? And so you have a melting pot of individuals that are coming from every different area. I mean, in that community, very rarely did I find somebody that was like a native California and live there their whole life and was engaged in the recovery community there. KC Gooding: Although there were a few you know, my best friends were from New York city and Arizona and Idaho and Tahoe and different places like that. And you know, that's what ended up becoming my recovery community that was about me there eventually. That's awesome. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: And when did you, or how long have you been with with Jay KC Gooding: Walker? KC Gooding: So I've been with Jay Walker for the last year and a half. I you know, I started my behavioral healthcare career in 2014 in Southern [00:04:00] California. I worked for an outpatient program called four, four, nine. I did that for about two years. I worked for five years at a program called New Method Wellness in San Juan Capistrano. KC Gooding: And then the year prior to me coming here to Burr, to Jay Walker, I lived, I worked on the national business development team for burning tree programs. So in May of 2000 and 22, my wife and I packed up a U Haul in Dana Point, California. And drove right here to Aspen and you know, we live here close to the program at Jay Walker in Carbondale, Colorado now. KC Gooding: That's awesome, Justin Mclendon: man. That's awesome. So we know of Jay Walker, but you know, anybody who's listening or watching the the podcast episode, I'd love for you to have an opportunity to just talk a little bit about, you know, what is Jay Walker services, you know, kind of population, KC Gooding: all that good stuff. Yeah. So you might even ask like, golly, you know, you're living in Dana point, California, you've created a recovery community there. KC Gooding: [00:05:00] You've got 10 sponses and you're doing this right. Everything. And you've you know, planted your flag in Southern cloud, California. What would be so riveting that you would be willing to pack up your entire life, everything, you know, on an opportunity to go to some small mountain town of 7, 000 people located in the Western slope of Colorado. KC Gooding: Right. And you know, that's exactly what it was for me though. You know, I think everything that has transpired in my recovery and my journey as a behavioral health care professional prepared me to take on the challenge that's that was awaiting for me here in Carbondale reason really simply is, you know, through all those years of being a young professional in this field I was mentored by some of the best and most wonderful people in our field Bob Ferguson, who's the owner of a Jay Walker Lodge being one Gary Fisher, the executive director of Circle Lodge being another one and, you know, Doug Lyons, owner and principal founder of Clear [00:06:00] Consulting were three guys that I always really looked up to. KC Gooding: You know, it was awesome last weekend we were in Los Angeles, all three, all four of us were together and I got to take a picture. You know, and I think that us is I hope that other people that are in our field value the importance of having strong mentorship. You know, when I got sober I didn't do it by myself. KC Gooding: I had a sponsor. I had a community of people that supported me and being in the profession we're in. It's so important to keep yourself healthy. And have other people that you can rely on to support you through this journey. So that kind of position started with my relationship with Bobby, who is the owner here. KC Gooding: And there was an opportunity that chief marketing officer here who had been employed here for about 11 years was leaving to start his own organization. And you know, I called Bobby very organically. I wanted to check in with him on see how things were here. And we started just having a conversation on what that might look like. KC Gooding: And, you know, to be fair and transparent, you [00:07:00] know, my wife wasn't overly excited about leaving this little village by the sea that we had this surf town that we were so comfortable in. But with you know, enough You know, leverage and support from the leadership team and the community here at Jay Walker. KC Gooding: We came out and we're convinced rather quickly. What we found here was something entirely different than what we had experienced in California. We found very authentic people that were committed to this purpose that they have here at Jay Walker. Very talented individuals working at a program that could, CR had created a legacy over 19 years. KC Gooding: This wasn't a startup. This was a proven commodity that has an excellent track record for success rates and a legacy of excellence over a long-term time in our field. So coming in, you know, I had to get up to speed in regards of, you know, what are the things that make jaywalker so special or so important? KC Gooding: So, you know, [00:08:00] here at jaywalker I kind of, we'll talk a little bit about who we typically support, right? You know, a lot of our guys, they've been to a couple 30 day treatment episodes. They're really good at recovery, are really good at treatment and really bad at recovery. Somehow, some way they have, you know, went in to, you know, High containment environment programs and done very successful. KC Gooding: They're everybody's favorite client. They're the guy that Ryan's stoked to get to the next spot because they just are sure that he's going to be successful. And then he's the same guy that comes back a month later. Right? And you're like, what happened? And you know, and so, overwhelmingly you know, almost all of the guys that come to Jay Walker are you They have an addiction professional, such as your guys themselves, as such as many people that we work with throughout the nation that is profoundly committed to the well being of not only the individual that they're supporting with the recommendation of Jay Walker, but the family that supports [00:09:00] them. KC Gooding: And, you know, I think 7000 person town. It's been as almost a 20 year track record or history, and we have about 400 men that live in the Roaring Fork Valley that are graduates of our program that are participating in our alumni program in our active part of what we do here. And so that is really like the secret sauce is like, this thing's been built here. KC Gooding: It's a destination. It's a sticky zip code. It. provides a lifestyle that young men in recovery can come out and build a life in recovery with a recovery community with brothers with the support of a really world class staff They can find their joy. They can find their purpose. They can find their meaning The way that we do it is over five different levels of care that span across an entire year's continuum So most of our guys are coming out There's some level of stability they've done through detox. KC Gooding: They go through a residential treatment program and they make their way to Jay Walker with the [00:10:00] support of the program or individuals and professionals that are supporting them. And most importantly, the support of their family that is walking through this journey with them. You know, they started our landing program where they have an opportunity to kind of be integrated into our environment. KC Gooding: We have a triple board certified psychiatrist, a man in long term recovery in medical director named Craig Bichon Also known as a unicorn not too many psychiatrists meet those same standards as him, but he's great he does psychiatric evaluations for the individuals entering the program we have Gail Matheson, who is a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner. KC Gooding: She has a son who went through our program about eight years ago. So not only is she extremely qualified, but she understands intimately as a parent what it's like to have your son here. And then Stefan Bate is our chief clinical officer, and he oversees our entire clinical team across all programs. KC Gooding: And he [00:11:00] manages a really multidisciplinary clinical team utilizing multiple different clinical modalities to support our individuals through the treatment process 28 days, depending on their level of stability. And then they transition into our primary lodge program, which is kind of the staple program what everybody thinks of Jay Walker. KC Gooding: If you get on our website, you'll see a really cool building in the middle of Carbondale, Colorado. It's got a really cool mural on it. It's an iconic building. building professionals that come out and see us always want their picture taken in front of it. And that's where kind of, you have the opportunity to change, right? KC Gooding: And so, what we've created as a result of being in where we're at, we're not in a seclusion from life. We're not using containment as an agency for change here. We're in the midst of a little mountain town on Main Street. And so what we have there is an open community model of care. So our guys are doing an equal amount of clinical services, group individual therapies, and [00:12:00] an equal amount of arts and cultural or outdoor recreation. KC Gooding: You know, as a result of our proximity and, you know, in one look at our website, you'll see These amazing experiences that our men get to engage in on a daily basis. And I can tell you after being here for over a year and a half, I'm simply just amazed every single day of what kind of experience these men get here at Jay Walker Lodge. KC Gooding: I would say, unlike a lot of other programs, we've talked a little bit about the psychiatric components. We've talked about, you know, the clinical professionals that are supporting them. Here at Jay Walker Lodge, we have a wellness director and an activities and expedition team that's employed full time to support our men on a daily schedule. KC Gooding: They typically have three to four different activities that they can enroll in. Whether it be fishing, golfing, hiking, snowboarding, skiing Museums, acting theme, whatever it might be, we want to support our [00:13:00] men and creating a life of joy, abundance and meaning. Everything that's done. Yeah. KC Gooding: Everything that's done here is really in line with what we believe in. You know, we believe that addiction. Treatment should not be a consequence of your past, rather a promise of your future and recovery. Our men are not afraid of a life in active addiction. They're afraid of what it looks like on the other side of it. KC Gooding: And so what we need to do is show them how to live a life of joy, how to experience that in community with other people. Because if we can't show the guys how to have fun, they'll never know what the other side looks like. Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: I mean, that's pretty amazing, man. I mean, you know, I think just some of the things that you said, I mean, snowboarding, hiking, you know, getting to engage in like arts and culture. Justin Mclendon: I mean, that sounds amazing because to your point, I think that's a lot of about what recovery has to be about, right. Is learning to live life, right. And to, you know, kind of break the chains of bondage as I like to think about it and learn how to live a [00:14:00] life that's, you know, joyous and free. KC Gooding: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the thing we talk about a lot is how do we equate a treatment episode into a recovery experience? And that's what we specialize in here. It's like, yes, many of us, we go into treatment experiences, we go into treatment episodes, you know, those last for a duration, but what the missing component is, how do we create recovery out of that treatment episode? KC Gooding: So not utilizing a lot of policing. Not utilizing a lot of levels of containment, offering high levels of individual agency and enrollment is how we're able to have an effective difference in the men we support. Ryan Jarrel: As someone who has worked in a similar setting, I think that's something that is so relieving to the client, but sometimes so terrifying to the family. Ryan Jarrel: So I was wondering you know, kind of, what kind of family programming do you guys provide especially since you're dealing with young men over such a long period of KC Gooding: time? Yeah, you know, the family component is you know, we talk about agents of [00:15:00] change, you know, I think there's a couple of things that, that we all believe is professionals that provide better results. KC Gooding: I mean, you guys at new waters have a great clinical staff and they're a part of that. And, you know, us at Jay Walker, the same and. I think we all know that the longer you can keep an individual committed to quality services, the higher level of success that we're going to find, right? That's pretty proven for us, the overwhelming largest component to create changes, the involvement of the family system throughout the treatment process and recovery. KC Gooding: So we know what it's going to look like for the individual when it's here. We've got a program that supports that man. It's, you know, it's an individualized program within a community setting. But we need to talk with families about how they participate in that journey. So about 70 percent of our guys that come here are referred from a different professional. KC Gooding: That means an interventionist. It could be a program like new waters, but 100 percent of the families that we support, we want engaged in some form of work on their own, [00:16:00] which means we're going to recommend that they engage in the support of an addiction professional, LCSW LMF T a family case management organization that is doing their part to educate and support the family throughout the process of recovery, getting them on consent here. KC Gooding: So our team can create a collaborative approach with the family consultant, ensuring that everybody's taking measures towards their own personal recovery. Now at Jay Walker, we're going to do a little bit more in the family system work than most programs because we're a longterm program. And so what that looks like typically is, you know, pre admissions, we're doing a lot of background work, asking the families for bios and timelines associated with their perspective of their loved one so that our clinical team is supported with accurate information that they can utilize different modalities to support the individual, understand. KC Gooding: The challenges within the system so that we can recommend the appropriate professional to work with the family. We're also going to do a [00:17:00] lot of family workshops. So each week our family therapist, Lenny Bollier is doing zoom workshops with families providing psychoeducation and additional support from here at Jay Walker. KC Gooding: There's weekly touches with the family from our clinical team, providing updates on their loved ones. And those aren't just updates regarding their loved ones. Those are actually check ins to ask the family how they're doing with the work. We send out family contracts with families prior to admission. KC Gooding: Do you agree that you're going to participate in your loved one's treatment episode? We want you to sign this information and send it back to us. There needs to be a good amount of accountability on behalf of the family members, because If we identify this as a family systems disease, it does require components of work for all members of the family, not just the guy that's in care at jay Walker. KC Gooding: On top of that, we have family weekends that come up and we invite all families to come. Last The last family group that we had 12 families 90 percent of our guys are from outside of the [00:18:00] general Colorado area. They're coming from, you know, North Carolina, they're coming from Florida, you know, New York, California, Texas, and the families are coming here to have that experience. KC Gooding: They get that experience with their loved one. They get that experience with other families. And it's a really powerful thing to see their loved one in a new way when they come here to meet them. And then more importantly, I mean, or equally of importance recently, we've launched alumni family support groups, and those are available via zoom to all of our alumni families, whether you were here 19 years ago, or you have a loved one enrolled in care now. KC Gooding: And so what we do is we operate that as a zoom group by monthly. And then we ask, much like you guys are doing here, we ask other professional organizations to come in group facilitate once a month for that, for families so they can get a different experience or perspective. So, we believe that this thing works the best when we have the whole family engaged in the [00:19:00] process, doing the work, supporting their loved one, and joining each other on the road to recovery. KC Gooding: Yeah, I couldn't Justin Mclendon: agree more. Absolutely. You know, that kind of brings up a question. I'm always interested because we deal with the same thing, right? And we completely agree with that statement in that you know, I think a lot of times you see families and I think a lot of it's just a lack of understanding, a lack of experience with this and also just being in a place of just operating out of fear and just really not knowing what to do and just only being able to rely on what they do. Justin Mclendon: So, I think, you know, to your point, Casey, I think getting the family on board with the process and helping them understand, you know, what their role can kind of start to look like is just, is crucially important in the treatment process and the, you know, overall success, I think of the client. Justin Mclendon: But the question that comes up for me is You know, I'm just curious how do you deal with that or what do you think would be something that you would say to that family member on that early end of recovery where they're, you know, they're operating out of fear. They don't know what to [00:20:00] do. What's kind of what comes up for you? Justin Mclendon: What would be something that you'd want to KC Gooding: communicate to them? Well, you know, the best story is my own personal story. I mean, I think that's where I get to draw most of the interest, right? Is that, you know, my family did. What I'm hopeful that you're willing to do right to a good result. This is what it looked like My family made changes that promoted my change You know a lot of times our families are engaged. KC Gooding: They're you know operating out of fear as one would say They're constantly responding to the crisis that their loved one's creating in their lives, right? Most of our men are completely dependent on their families in the family system is almost turn inverted. What we need to do is help them empower them to make decisions that are based on the clinical best interest of the family and their loved one and a lot of Times there's profound uncomfortability in doing that because we've been used to a system that has been dysfunctional Right. KC Gooding: So we're trying to flip the script. And so the best thing that I can do is kind of tell the [00:21:00] story of what my family did to save my life because I'm not, I'm absolutely convinced. Had they not stepped in, I would have been the first one to pass. I was much worse than all my friends that are now deceased. KC Gooding: And you know, I may have been the only one who had the opportunity to find recovery as a result of my family's. Unconditional love and commitment to me as their son. So, you know, we utilize a lot of different components to encourage them. We try and leverage in a quick way. We try and identify, you know, what leverage is or implement boundaries. KC Gooding: But more importantly, we're just trying to get them to make a call with. Enrolling in someone who can be there to support them. What we don't want to have happen is them to constantly be in a position where they are not making the best decisions in support of their loved one, and then holding themselves hostage as a result of poor outcomes based on those decisions. Ryan Jarrel: Absolutely. I think so. So many times what [00:22:00] it is. And it seems so basic, right? But it's, you have to move away from the framework that what we're dealing with is an individual's moral failing and what we're dealing with is a disease and a systemic issue. And if you can make that perception shift, which is so difficult, but so basic you know, I've seen amazing kind of outcomes follow, but until that happens, it's just never going to happen. Ryan Jarrel: You know, but people think it's the same thing as a teenager leaving their shoes in the living room every day, you know, and we're just we're dealing with a different issue, something so profound, and I really applaud you guys for really taking the time to do that, you know, Casey, I, as someone who was kind of an outsider from this thing, like I would see. Ryan Jarrel: You know, experiential stuff, and honestly, I would you know, raise my eyebrow like I got sober and I can't snowboard. You know what I mean? So like, what is the value of that? And I think working in this industry, I got to see this kind of experiential element and really the change it could make in young men's lives. Ryan Jarrel: I was hoping you could talk about what is the role that experiential therapy plays in [00:23:00] Jay Walker and how important you think that KC Gooding: is. Yeah, I mean, I think that you know, we talk about this disease. I mean, and that's a great segue into what this is. What does that disease necessarily look like? Right? KC Gooding: We see a lot of isolation, separation from family systems, separation from peers, a lot of reclusivity, those kind of things. That's what progressive and fatal illness looks like typically. And so, So, you know, what we have here at Jay Walker in our primary program, there's typically about 20 men and we're really focused on them creating authentic peer driven relationships with each other. KC Gooding: So how does that happen? Right. And so when I've got 10 minutes to sit with Justin and we're on a chairlift and we are, you know, we've got nothing else to do except for just to talk each other and check in. You know what I mean? Like, how can you and I create an authentic relationship with each other? KC Gooding: Well, I've got a captive audience for 10 minutes, 20 times a day, and it's going to be [00:24:00] Justin, it's going to be me, it's going to be me, it's going to be Ryan, it's going to be all the guys that I'm engaged in this thing with. So we're really about trying to create a community of individuals. We understand that at a certain point, if this thing is going to work, it'll be based on the relationships that I make with Justin and Ryan in my time at Jay Walker, they create that recovery community about me. KC Gooding: Because even with a longterm program like Jay Walker treatment doesn't last forever. In fact, you 90 days. And then they step. down into a transitional program and they continue to work on developing those relationships with their peers. And then they step into independent living and outpatient services and they do that and they can stay all the way up to a year. KC Gooding: But we're in the belief that recovery happens outside of treatment and that's what's going to happen. Certainly clinically, psychiatrically, KC Gooding: we can process, we can do therapy that will support their deeper. Issues that are [00:25:00] taking place. But if we are going to have success in their recovery, it will come as a result of their experiences together in the relationship that they make with each other. Another thing that, you know, we talk about here is how do we find joy? KC Gooding: You know, we have guys that haven't been, haven't experienced any true joy in years, decades sometimes, right? Like, yeah. They don't know what it's like to find joy. They're scared of it. They're holding onto the substance because that's the only thing that provides that sense of release and comfort. And they don't know what life looks like on the other side of that. KC Gooding: So. What are some things that you love to do when you were a kid? Well, I really like to go skiing with my family. I like to go to Dairy Queen and get a nice ice cream cone dipped in sprinkled with chocolate, you know, and Hey, let's go do that at Jay Walker, right? Let's take you down the street. Let's walk down the street in freedom, not in sit. KC Gooding: Not in seclusion, not in high security, like enroll you in the process of doing this, show you [00:26:00] something different. Engage with a community of individuals that have a lot of relative life experience. A lot of our guys are, you know, the really successful mom or dad. They've got brothers and sisters who are valedictorians and have launched into life and been successful. KC Gooding: And our guy is sitting there in a life of guilt and shame and reclusivity and isolation. You know, we need to fight that with something that can overcome that. The power of the community and the experience that they have together is what we're betting on for them to overcome where they've been. KC Gooding: Absolutely. Justin Mclendon: Completely agree with that. And it's true. I mean, so similar, I have some experience in my past early in my career, I worked in not the same, but you know, similar kind of set up. And it's true. I think it's true across all age spans, demographics. I mean, when we're talking about somebody who is struggling with the disease of addiction or other. Justin Mclendon: You know, forms of these types of afflictions, right? I think it's very true. I think it is very much a [00:27:00] disease of isolation and bondage and being deprived of feeling, you know, hope and peace and and I couldn't agree with you more, Casey, I think the formulation of those relationships and being able to slowly dip our toes back into, you know, what it feels like to not have to live that way, right? Justin Mclendon: But to, you know, experience a little taste of joy here and there. Thank you. I mean, long term, I think that is the, for me, in my opinion, I think that is the ingredient that is so crucial for success, you know, just learning how to form those relationships, how to engage with other people, how to you know, pur pursue and understand the things that are going to bring us happiness in our life. Ryan Jarrel: Casey, I'm curious, you get all this freedom how do you guys deal with the return, potential returns to use? And you know, I think that's sometimes a by, a byproduct and a very real reality when you're dealing with a more open treatment situation. KC Gooding: Yeah, it's a good question and something that we engage with like almost every time we have professionals come and visit our community, I will say it happens a lot less [00:28:00] than one might think, especially considering that we're treating really. KC Gooding: What would be known as a chronic relapse patient. A lot of times we have plenty of guys that are in their first treatment experience. We have guys that have been five to 10, those kinds of things. You know, a hundred percent of our guys suffer from a substance abuse disorder. About 80 percent of them suffer from some pretty heavy co occurring mental health diagnoses. KC Gooding: That's why we have a, you know, the psychiatric components that we have and in therapeutic modalities that we employ. It has to do with, you know, another bet that we're placing. This is in, you know, this is a high risk, high reward situation that we have at jaywalker that makes it very unique. KC Gooding: Right next to our lodge program is a pizza parlor in bar down the street from our our treatment program literally, you know, 500 yards is a marijuana dispenser dispensary 200 yards. The other way is a liquor store. All right. So our men are literally getting up in the [00:29:00] morning, they're going out into the community, they're walking to the yoga studio and walking right past the liquor store. KC Gooding: A lot of them that are, you know, alcohol is their primary drug of choice. You know, we're leveraging the autonomy, we're leveraging the the relationships they have that their relationships with their peers could be so important and something that they've missed in You're in for so long that the obsession to use and go to the liquor store is superseded by their need to be a part of something that's, you know, one of the main components, but we also have a full continuum of care here with many different levels of, you know, security or, you know, stabilization, those kinds of things. KC Gooding: And a lot of times what we see is specifically in that patient that's been to five to 10 treatment programs as they go to residential treatment. They go to PHB, IOP and sober living. They do that for like a month, they relapse and they start all the way over. They go to a [00:30:00] new program, they start that process, they do it over. KC Gooding: They go to another program, they start all the way over. And so what happens is our men become institutionalized. Right. And they're not able to experience these things and everything's kind of taken care of for them. And, you know, they find themselves in high containment treatment over and over again. KC Gooding: And so luckily here, I mean, we do have, you know, the landing program where there's a high level of supervision that's provided. And if there's ever any setbacks, whether an individual's in the lodge program, in the solutions program, in our sober living and outpatient program, we can bring them in. Support them, get our hands around them, work with their family, work with the family therapist, work with our team. KC Gooding: Identify an appropriate solution to support them moving forward. Imply higher levels of accountability and responsibility. Add different... Psychiatric pieces, add different therapeutic pieces, add different case management aspects, coaching, companioning, all sorts of [00:31:00] different things that we can support them with for the interim and keep them necessary most of the time, right on track where they were. KC Gooding: It's not always required at a certain point, if there's a relapse, if there's remorse to have an individual start all the way back over, it might be more beneficial to support them with where they're at, giving additional aspects and support. Right? So we have a lot of flexibility when it comes to that. KC Gooding: You know, here at Jay Walker, like if you guys were to come or you could look at our buildings online, all those buildings are no more than 100 yards apart. We have five different buildings that span across an entire year's continuum. We have about 40 men that are typically engaged in services throughout that entire year. KC Gooding: Again, there's about 400 that live in the Roaring Fork Valley. So what we have is this recovery ecosystem that takes place on Main Street and it's all around you. Like it takes me an hour to go get a gallon of milk at the grocery store because I'm gonna run into a jaywalker I'm gonna have a conversation [00:32:00] with them I'm gonna check in see how things are going My wife's gonna call and say hey you said you were going to the store for a gallon of milk and I said, yeah I am but I ran into JJ. KC Gooding: I ran into Josh And that's just how it goes. And we want that for our men. We want them to we want them to be exposed to the success. You know, one of the really cool things that we do, like we've talked about what it looks like for the clients. We know what it looks like for the families, but what does it look for like for the alumni? KC Gooding: So everything that we do for the clients, we do for the alumni. So on Wednesday night, our chef cooks a big dinner and a hundred guys come in for a meeting. And it's a bustling place and guys have 10 years of recovery and they have two months of recovery and they have all these things. But if you're a brand new guy coming from new waters to Jay Walker in the first week, you're going to the alumni meeting and you're meeting guys that have had success in recovery guys that are from Chicago where you're from that have a family that's, you know, a doctor and lawyer mom and the relativity is [00:33:00] astounding. KC Gooding: Right. And you know, we do alumni expeditions. We do you know, monthly activities for the guys. There's always something that Dylan, our alumni coordinator is doing for the guys here. It's really something special to be part of. Justin Mclendon: That's great, man. That's that's amazing. And I'm assuming, I know it sounds like you have a lot of guys that come out and they kind of, you know, they get engaged and they create a community around them and they just, it sounds like they just kind of stay in the local community. Justin Mclendon: What about those clients that are coming in and engaging, but then at some point maybe kind of leaving the area and going back to wherever home may be for them? KC Gooding: Yeah we have a, you know, about an equal. Percentage of that, I would say about half of the guys that come here are recommended to come here to cut with the expectation from that referring from their family to be a part of this thing in the greater whole here in Carbondale, you know, come out, plant roots and stay for a while. KC Gooding: Stay in this sticky zip code. About 50 [00:34:00] percent of the guys that come out, they're coming out for a 90 day experience doing our primary program, doing the lodge after stabilization. And we're creating a specific treatment plan that supports them with the reintegration into their local community. KC Gooding: And there's a lot of different parts that may be involved in that just depending on what their clinical progress is. They know that they always have a home back here with us should, They ever need to return. We encourage them to participate in a lot of the alumni activities. Come on some of the expeditions with us engage in zoom session meetings that are held for the alumni. KC Gooding: But our position, certainly my position is supporting the individual the referent family in identifying appropriate resources a lot in the same way that Ryan's doing for you guys, right? Like, how can we put together an appropriate plan of action for. Sure. for josh that needs to go back to Des Moines, Iowa. KC Gooding: What is going to make sure that the the things that he's done here and the recovery experience that he has [00:35:00] been provided will translate into something that he can implement in his life on a daily basis in Des Moines. You know, is there a case management component? Is there you know, a private practice therapy. KC Gooding: Is there psychiatry? Is there an I. O. P. You know, where are we at in supporting him with this transitional plan? So there's typically a lot of work that goes into that to ensure that we're setting our men up to find success in their local communities. That's great. Justin Mclendon: And that can be a heavy lift. I mean, we know that Ryan does that very well, right? Justin Mclendon: But it's important though, right? I mean, that's the thing is, I think, you know, primary treatment is important. You know, and I think if in the cases where people have an opportunity to engage in a treatment such as Jay Walker I think can be much more conducive, right? I mean, just again, as we talked about being able to teach them, you know, how to live a little bit but yeah, I mean, regardless of whether they're staying or whether they're going back, I think, you know, the continuation of you know, engaging in relationships and you know, engaging, staying connected to clinical [00:36:00] care and things like that are just so crucially important. KC Gooding: Absolutely. Yeah. I think we talk a lot of times, you know, I've worked at other treatment programs throughout my career and certainly I've worked at a couple longer term treatment programs over the last three years. I think we're always kind of looking at a year of recovery as kind of like the golden standard and I know that you guys are probably entering people, you know, you know, and In bad condition and, you know, in the hopes that we can create a plan that will support this young man, this young woman, whatever it may be in getting a year of recovery. KC Gooding: Like, what are the things that we can, what are the pieces that we can add that will, equate to that, you know, and we know that once a person can get a year of recovery, that's a year of abstinence at the very least. Right? They have had experiences. If they're, you know, in a 12 step community, they've done some step work. KC Gooding: They've engaged in a recovery community. They've done some service. They know what recovery looks like over a year. They've. They have experienced joy in certain ways. Again, you know, they have worked on their personal [00:37:00] relationships. They probably have a new group of friends. And so with those components at the very least, there's a much higher success rate in getting a person into longer term recovery. Justin Mclendon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's see here. So I think we're coming kind of close to our end of our time. Casey, I really appreciate you taking some time to hang out with us and chat today. And I really enjoyed getting to learn more about Jay Walker and about yourself. i'd love to I mean just kind of selfishly i'd love to come out and see the place sometime, you know I'd KC Gooding: love to do that. KC Gooding: I'll just give graham a call and let him know, you know we're ready to host you guys and you know, we'll get your ski passes ready and the jay walker experience, you know, because We don't have much more time until these guys are going to be on the mountain two, three times a week. That's true. With each other, you know, the fall season, while it's my favorite, it is a in short order. KC Gooding: Our temperatures are declining on a daily basis. So, [00:38:00] okay. I'll be looking forward to some of that season. And I know a lot of our guys will be showing up with snowboards and skis and these types of things over the next month. So, you can count on that. I'll make the call for you. That's awesome. KC Gooding: I Ryan Jarrel: make funeral arrangements for me as well because I'm not, I only go down a mountain one way and it's on my back. So, but thank you. Justin Mclendon: That's funny. So Casey, I always like to, I know I've kind of inserted one of these questions already, but I always like to kind of wrap these things up with you know, you being someone in personal recovery and obviously having a lot of experience with the field and helping guide individuals. Justin Mclendon: In their own process, what would be like a takeaway or something for, you know, let's say if there was a family member or even a potential, you know, a person that's kind of struggling with their own disease right now that's watching or listening to this episode, what would be like a nugget that you would want them to take away from this? KC Gooding: Yeah, just not to put you on the spot or anything. Yeah, I think just knowing that there's help, right? I mean, you know, certainly we work at two of the finer organizations in the nation.[00:39:00] Very different types of treatment programs. There's, you know, a wide variety of services that are available. You know, I'm a big component of, you know, identifying a professional that can walk you through this treatment program. KC Gooding: process, right? And identify the best options that support you and your family's needs. Invest, ensure that, you know, you're doing your diligence and identifying what one of those professionals offers, you know, what their level of expertise is, how they can help you through that. Because You know, one thing that, you know, I know is that, you know, our families are experts at parenting their child because that's what their experiences, right? KC Gooding: But they're not necessarily experts at parenting an addicted child or a child with. Heavy mental health disorders or these kinds of things. And there's not necessarily a book that's going to be out there. That's going to be riveting. That's going to turn you into an addiction professional. You know, I always equate this experience of, you know, I'm an addiction [00:40:00] professional. KC Gooding: My wife is in finance. You know, we had a big pipe bust in our house the other day. I didn't run home, put on my gloves, grab wrenches and start fixing that thing. You know, I caught up, called a professional to help me get that done. You know, and you know, and if we have a son or a daughter who needs some support, you know, let's get a professional involved that can start paving the way we need an engineer. KC Gooding: We need an architect of the family that can walk us through exactly what we can expect, how we can participate and what's going to provide the best opportunity for us to find success now. So that's my nugget. I love it. Ryan Jarrel: You are not alone. Right. It's so basic. And we just think we have to keep doing this stuff. Ryan Jarrel: We have to do it alone. We have to keep it secret within these four walls. And I love that you guys seem to be making this general movement and just having people reach out. That's beautiful. KC Gooding: Yeah. We love it. That's great. And thank you. Love it too. Thanks for having me today. This has been Justin Mclendon: awesome. Justin Mclendon: Likewise. Yeah. Thank you so much Casey. We really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure chatting with you and getting to know you a little bit better. And I guess until [00:41:00] next time right signing KC Gooding: off. Thanks guys. Thank you Justin Mclendon: How'd we do solomon? Good KC Gooding: good. Just make sure we're uploaded